Jason Blitman: 0:00

Hey folks, Jason, here today, we have a special bonus episode for you on all things related to the Booker prize, which is the UK is most prestigious book award brett and i recorded this intro the day after the national book award lung this came out and we were talking about book awards and decided to hit record mid conversation so here we are diving right into the middle of that

Brett Benner: 0:20

In terms of these book prizes, what people are talking about, what these judges are talking about in these closed rooms, what their experiences are and how they're debating what is the merits of what they feel should be on these long lists and short lists. Not to mention, and not to mention the amount of times they're reading them before they come to those decisions. It's not a one off. Which. Almost everyone does and has a reaction to, how many times, how many people actually say, God, I'm going to reread that book,

Jason Blitman: 0:49

not only that, but also just like, when it comes down to, we've all, anyone who's read a book before has read a book that, and they finish it and they have a differing opinion than the majority. And so all it takes, and there are what? six judges, five judges, so you have one judge who has a different reaction to the book than everybody else does. And all it takes is them explaining their reasoning to why they didn't love it so much. And that can really affect the final decision. That doesn't mean it's not a great book. It doesn't mean but also to come to a consensus of what They want to celebrate, that would be important to me. Like I'm if I'm wearing a hat, if I'm wearing my judge's hat, I'd want us all to maybe agree. It's not the right word. Cause I don't know that anyone agrees, but it's getting on board with the list,

Brett Benner: 1:40

right. With the majority feeling the same way

Jason Blitman: 1:43

totally,

Brett Benner: 1:44

said selections.

Jason Blitman: 1:46

there are some books that have come out recently that I have just really not been big fans of, or have been huge fans of, and they've either, they've, been really successful or have not been successful. And every sort of version the book that recently won, one of the books that just won the And I like had such a terrible strong reaction to it and everybody loved and that's okay. I'm glad that everybody loved it. But that doesn't mean that I'm never going to read a Pulitzer Prize winning book ever again Or protest them. So I don't

Brett Benner: 2:21

Maybe just that author.

Jason Blitman: 2:23

I'm excited for our listeners to, to hear from it. Gaby Wood because we get such a cool inside look at the Booker Prize and how it works. And, I knew this, but didn't quite realize it, but the Booker Prize is a foundation and the foundation What's the word? Facilitates the award.

Brett Benner: 2:43

Yeah, that's right.

Jason Blitman: 2:44

Here's a little about Gabby, just so that our listeners know, Gabby Wood is the chief executive of the Booker Prize Foundation. Gabby Wood was the head of books at the Telegraph, and for 15 years she was an editor And staff feature writer at The Observer, reporting for the last seven of those years from New York. She has written and occasionally illustrated for a number of other publications, including the London Review of Books, U. S. Vogue, and the New York Times. Her list is of accolades is endless, and she's also sat on the judging panel. for the Booker Prize. She has such a unique perspective from the judging standpoint, from a leader of the foundation standpoint and I think it's just really interesting to get her insights. And then we'll also talk to an author, a multi time

Brett Benner: 3:34

Booker nominee,

Jason Blitman: 3:35

Booker nominee,

Brett Benner: 3:37

Tan Tuan Eng.

Jason Blitman: 3:38

20. I'm just so excited. So I just need to keep saying it.

Brett Benner: 3:42

Exactly. Tan was born in Penang and lived in various places in Malaysia as a child. His first novel, The Gift of Rain, was long listed for the Man Booker. His second, The Garden of Evening Mist, was a major international bestseller and was shortlisted for the Man Booker and the winner of the ManAsian Literary Prize and the Walter Scott Prize. Prize for Historical Fiction. It was adapted into an award winning film in 2019, directed by Tom Lin. Also, Tan was one of the judges for the 2023 International Booker. He divides his time between Malaysia and South Africa.

Jason Blitman: 4:20

Yeah. And so we will get to him a little bit later, but first we will have our conversation with Gaby Wood. So I'm Jason.

Brett Benner: 4:29

And I'm Brett.

Jason Blitman: 4:30

And please enjoy this very special episode, Booker, I don't even know her.

Brett Benner: 4:37

The dumb bump

Jason Blitman: 4:41

Gay's reading.

Brett Benner: 4:57

Hello.

Jason Blitman: 4:57

Hello. Thank you so much for joining us.

Brett Benner: 5:01

we so

Gaby Wood: 5:01

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 5:03

So we're gaze reading the new hip podcast. I say hip, but I don't even know if people are saying hip anymore.

Gaby Wood: 5:10

It's so hip.

Jason Blitman: 5:11

That's how not hip we're like cycling

Brett Benner: 5:12

That's exactly everything. Everything old is new again, as they say,

Gaby Wood: 5:16

I've listened to your podcast. I think it's great. I

Jason Blitman: 5:18

You have

Gaby Wood: 5:19

Yeah. And I want, I want the merch now.

Jason Blitman: 5:22

Do you like books, Gabby?

Gaby Wood: 5:24

I like books. Sometimes I wonder if I'm going to stop liking books one day because there are so many of them in my life, but I hope that won't happen.

Jason Blitman: 5:31

know how overwhelming I just said on our last episode, starting a book podcast, really bad for my love of books because suddenly it's starting to feel like homework, but not necessarily in a bad way.

Gaby Wood: 5:42

I heard that, and I thought, is he in my living room? But you're right about the TBR pile, it's bigger anyway, isn't it? And then, how do you distinguish,

Jason Blitman: 5:51

I should make an addendum to that comment. I realized afterwards, I was like, oh, I made it maybe sound like I didn't want to read the books that I have to read, but that's not true. I'm so excited to read all of the books, but there's a difference between needing to read a book and wanting to read a book, even though the, you might also want, you might need to read it and want to read it.

Gaby Wood: 6:10

Absolutely,

Jason Blitman: 6:11

And those are the ones you have to prioritize.

Brett Benner: 6:13

Yeah, you're right.

Jason Blitman: 6:14

So this is a fun way to dive in. Do you read all of the books that are submitted?

Gaby Wood: 6:18

Thank you for asking that, because I don't. But! I know, but I do, so I'll tell you how I read them. I started doing that my first year, so this was 2016. I read them as they arrived, and then I desperately wanted to join in the discussions. there were five judges, and... I, they already have strong opinions amongst themselves. The whole point about the judges, the judging panel being made of five people is that it's an uneven, it's an odd number, right? And so if it ever comes to a vote, they can do that democratically. They do not need a sixth person and they certainly don't need me weighing in. And I just, even if I didn't say anything, I would start making faces or, it was just terrible. So then I made a resolution that I would read the books after they'd been discussed. So what I do is I listen in the meetings and I do read the ones that they, so each meeting, and there's a meeting once a month by the way, the judges retain some and reject some. So what I do is I read them as they're retained and then I also read the ones I'm interested in that they've rejected anyway. I do read a lot

Jason Blitman: 7:22

So that's your want to read, don't need to read pile.

Gaby Wood: 7:25

Yeah, although there's a little bit of need there because I think I should understand.

Jason Blitman: 7:29

what's submitted and what they're also rejecting. Sure. As you're in your role that you have,

Gaby Wood: 7:34

Yeah, I feel I need to understand that. So it's still part of work.

Brett Benner: 7:38

So as this pile comes in and they start to meet, are they all saying, okay, we're going to start with these 20 titles for this month and then discuss those. Okay. Because suddenly I was like, I come in and I'm like, God, I'm loving this one. And someone else said, I haven't even got to that yet. So yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:55

we're starting a little bit in the middle. Why don't, should we, why don't we take a step? back a tiny bit. And first, let me say the Booker website has a fantastic how it works animation video that we will include in the show notes of this episode. Anyone who's listening, take a look in our show notes. You could watch this. It's like a three and a half minute video about how the Booker prize works. It's a really cute animation. And so let's Assume that you're coming in with that amount of knowledge, listeners. So you've listened to how it works, and now we're going to get into a little bit more of the nitty gritty. So Gabby, tell us a little bit about what you do as the chief executive of The Booker Prize.

Gaby Wood: 8:34

I guess I started out as what was called the literary director, which is a bit of a tautology because what other kind of director would you have? But maybe you would have a PR director or, but people had different titles. So that initially, and this was seven years ago, was really quite strictly choosing the judges and working with the judges. And that is always the core of it. And Is the most interesting bit, but now I'm the chief executive of the foundation, which is the charity behind the prizes. And so that helps us all to think, we have a small team, including the people who commissioned the great animation, I agree. It allows us all to think together about what the whole purpose of this is. Yes, the prize predated the charity, but what's the point of it, really? What's the point of reading full stop, you might say? Are we seeking to persuade people? Is that part of our mission? And I would say it is. We do work in prisons, we do work in schools, we do work in universities, there's a creative writing scholarship that we fund And then it's thinking about the events as well there's a ceremony which is, we like to think the Oscars,

Brett Benner: 9:38

Absolutely. And gotten bigger.

Gaby Wood: 9:40

But does it have to be that? What is the purpose of it? Who is it for? And I think generally we, we all believe that it's for everyone out there who's interested in reading. And so what do you prioritize? Do you prioritize what's for dinner or do you prioritize the message that's going out to the world? So it's just thinking about things like that, and making sure we're always doing that. Because I think the Booker Prize right at the beginning. Actually, there are lots of ways you could characterize it at the beginning, but it started in 1969 and in 69 in the UK Novels were written by a much smaller group of people I think it was pretty exclusive and the people who were discussing them were broadly, upper middle class people I would say And so that's shifted a lot. You're addressing a different group, and you also don't want to just preach to the converted, do you? So it's just, I guess it's just thinking about that, broadly speaking.

Brett Benner: 10:32

It's fascinating. And, but also, something we were talking about too, is just like you said the growth of it. And I personally, I didn't really even start to follow the Booker until I got into the whole Instagram world and became conscious of it. And there was a whole group of people who started to follow it. I was so invested in the shortlist last year. I thought it was such a terrific group of books that I was so caught up in it and so pissed, like with some of the things that didn't make it to the shortlist, along with so many people. And I kept thinking, though, how amazing is this that This is books, and this is what we're talking about, especially now, especially with bans and everything that's happening specifically in this country and so that's, I think it's amazing to watch. I really do.

Gaby Wood: 11:15

oh, that is great to hear. But so tell me which ones you were annoyed about.

Brett Benner: 11:19

I will tell you I wanted the colony, the, yes.

Gaby Wood: 11:23

Very good.

Brett Benner: 11:24

I was so invested in that book, like one of my favorite books of last year and I quickly learned like so many things you can never go on and say start to say to people this is definitely going to, this is probably going to win. And even this year, yes, I certainly had titles that, I would thought was going to make it at least onto the list and had not.

Jason Blitman: 11:44

coming back to the Booker. The second season of American Idol, when Clay Aiken did not win, I was, I turned off the TV and I never put on American Idol ever again I'm sorry that you were upset about the colony, but I'm glad that you keep returning to the Booker Brett.

Gaby Wood: 12:00

Me too. Thank you. Mean, American Idol is a brilliant comparison.

Jason Blitman: 12:04

Simon Cowell, it's related. Oh,

Gaby Wood: 12:07

yeah we have, yeah, we've had some Simon Cowell's on the panels in the past.

Jason Blitman: 12:11

So listen, transition genius. Tell us how you pick, how do we get to your judges? How do the judges come to be?

Gaby Wood: 12:18

So I don't do it on my own, obviously, thank God. But so we have an advisory committee and they suggest people and we also all ask around and think together about who would be interesting to have as a reader.

Jason Blitman: 12:31

What sort of people are on the advisory committee?

Gaby Wood: 12:34

The advisory committee is specifically made up of people in publishing. So they're people but they represent different areas of publishing. So there are some publishers, there is an agent, there are two booksellers there's an author, there's, so it's that's the idea that we can, if we want to change the rules or we're uncertain about anything, we can ask them for suggestions and also people that we work with, like the chief exec of the National Literacy Trust, who we work with on the prisons project and a representative from the BBC is always on there. It's people that we work with, but I guess the thing that I always hope for in recommendations is almost combinations of people or pairs of people because into the habit of thinking about judges as individuals is not that useful. Really what you want to be thinking of who is interesting in conversation with who else. And then you start to, sometimes I say to people who I'm asking if you know when I'm asking them if they want to be a judge I say who do you really enjoy disagreeing with, or who do you

Jason Blitman: 13:32

Or debating with, or, yeah.

Gaby Wood: 13:35

Because, there are various elements. One is you want to try and arrive at a range of tastes amongst the members of the panel so that every book has a chance of finding its ideal reader on the panel. If they all have the same taste, it wouldn't be great. On the other hand, if they've all got different tastes and they can't come together and agree, then it's a disaster, right? So they have to be People with a range of texts, a range of reading backgrounds, reading experiences, life experiences, really who are open to having their minds changed and are, have bought into collective decision making. And then once you've got that group, and it can be really surprising how the groups evolve. Some of them are still in touch, they keep in touch and they didn't, one of them actually, the 2021 judges have formed a book group and they meet every so

Jason Blitman: 14:23

They loved talking together so much.

Gaby Wood: 14:25

just wanted to keep going. So that,

Jason Blitman: 14:28

That's, I wanna read that book. I wanna read the book about them.

Brett Benner: 14:31

Have you ever had, has there ever been a repeat judge or someone who's come back for another round?

Gaby Wood: 14:36

that's happened. It happened more in the past. And generally when it happens, that judge the chair of the judges. One thing that I think can be Quite interesting is to have someone who's been longlisted or shortlisted for the prize come back because they know so clearly what it means to the authors. And the current chair of the judges, Essie Adujan, is a two time Booker shortlistee, and that really guides her thinking, it completely changed her life when she was first longlisted, she said. She thought she was going to have to give up writing and find another career. And now she's written Washington Black, which is about to become a Hulu series. And that was the second book that was shortlisted for the Booker. And yeah she's such a great chair. The thing about them being a jury, of course, you're right, you are affecting the fate of a writer, but What I really hope when they're having these discussions is not that they're, it's hard to describe because it's quite a fine line, obviously they need to whittle it down because there are a lot of books submitted, but really eventually the kinds of conversations you want them to have are based on the idea that they've all read a different book, almost by definition. The five different people, they've basically each read a different book, because if you base it on the idea that books are completed by their readers, rather than their writers, then that's five different books that are in contention with every book. Also, it will be a different book every time you read it, and they are rereading them twice before they get,

Brett Benner: 16:02

crazy.

Gaby Wood: 16:04

right? Yeah. So that changes things, and of course you're trying to almost replicate the the rereading over time, but you can't because you haven't got that much time. And so really their task, each of them, is to show each other. What this book is to them, rather than say yes or no, or agree or disagree about their judgment. It's much more, let me show you the book I read. And sometimes when that happens, it can be quite beautiful. I remember one meeting a couple of years ago when somebody described a book to the others and they felt completely silent and they said, wow, that I had, I just, I hadn't thought of it like that at all. And. It was, sometimes you can have extraordinary moments like that. And it's not so much persuasion as. Sharing, or trust, that sounds really soppy, but,

Jason Blitman: 16:54

If everyone is essentially reading one book and then not necessarily pitching as you're describing, but like just sharing their reading experience, the next time the other readers or judges panel read that book, they're reading it. They have that information, right? You're getting additional context. That's very cool. Mm

Brett Benner: 17:11

Yeah.

Gaby Wood: 17:11

You're reading in company so the first reading, you're reading in private, and the next there's a sort of companionship in it. So ideally, it would then, the book would grow. And it's not so much about how the judges behave as how the books behave do the books become bigger books once they've been read? Discussed and generally the winning book is the one that's become the biggest book as a result of the discussion. The richest is right. This panel of judges... They're quite an interesting range and some of them are more, respond more emotionally than and some respond more cerebrally and one is a poet, one is a novelist, one's an academic two of them are performers one way or another. So I said to them, maybe you need to ask yourselves, what is this book doing? Which gives you a sort of literary core, right? And what is this book doing to me? And then, and if you can answer both of those questions and the book is operating on both of those levels, then it's, it's a book for this panel, right?

Jason Blitman: 18:09

You said, what is a book doing and what is it doing to me versus I think a critic who might be who might want to say what is a book trying to do and how well did it do it?

Gaby Wood: 18:22

Actually, you're quite right. And that is generally what the judges ask themselves. So I was guiding them with these two questions because I thought it was a way to unite what might have become factions, so that in the heart factions among amongst the members of the panel, but in fact, they all get on really well and they are asking what is it trying to do and how well does it do it? Or, they would ask themselves. Are we going to go for a book that is very ambitious, but may fail at times? Or are we going for a book that has restricted ambitions but achieves them perfectly? And I think they have a bit of both. And, those are interesting conversations, I think, about

Jason Blitman: 18:59

Sure. And for a prize, there's no real criteria, so it's okay to stumble, right? And like when if a critic critiquing a book, it might talk about those stumbles as well. And as you said, Readers complete the book and everybody is going to have a different experience, like I have, I've read few Booker winners one really spoke to me, one I had a hard time getting through,

Gaby Wood: 19:26

Tell me, tell

Jason Blitman: 19:27

It Shuggie Bain or his other one that won? Shuggie Bain won, that one spoke to me.

Gaby Wood: 19:33

me.

Jason Blitman: 19:33

Seven moons? Not for me. Which is fine, but again I it's, and I think that it's very cool that different readers, different kinds of readers can appreciate Booker Winners.

Gaby Wood: 19:47

Absolutely. That's the difficulty in choosing a winner, right? Because. Actually, and that's the reason why I think the longlist and shortlist moments are most exciting because you're offering more to more kinds of reader, right? And the winner, it's not exactly potluck, but of course it might not be for you. There's only one book. Yeah, I still, yeah we often think say the shortlist hasn't gone, there's no vanishing. The longlist

Jason Blitman: 20:15

right.

Gaby Wood: 20:16

Let's. Shortlist hasn't vanished when the winner is announced. How can we keep all of these books in play? Because they will all speak to different people. Yeah. In a way, it's disappointing when there has to be a winner, I think. I said this once at one of the shortest parties, and everyone thought this, again, this is so soppy but I felt like this was early in my doing this job, and I thought, wait a minute, this is backwards. Why are we narrowing it down? When if you were building a library, you'd go in the opposite direction. You'd start with one, and you'd add, others, right? You'd start with the winner and then you build out to the long list. Why are we going?

Jason Blitman: 20:46

are doing that every year, right? You're no, like you're adding

Gaby Wood: 20:50

Oh, I see.

Jason Blitman: 20:51

the book or library every

Gaby Wood: 20:52

I thought you meant, like why have you not gone

Jason Blitman: 20:55

it's time to quit your job, Gabby.

Gaby Wood: 20:57

back to It is actually a competition. Yeah. But that's right. And that is why we thought of the Booker Library, because then when we started on this whole digital strategy Jan Topping, my colleague, and I were like, OK, how are we going to do this? We, think about the All of Booker history is a collection, almost the way a museum would, how can we do that? And in fact, the people who built our website are the people who designed the British Museum's website.

Brett Benner: 21:21

Oh, wow.

Gaby Wood: 21:21

Yeah, and that was part of our thinking like, this is our collection. And also, can we talk about, of course we tell people what has won and what has been shortlisted and longlisted, but essentially, we're trying to think about it without a hierarchy. So that, they are, that's why we called it the Booker Library, because we're thinking these are all books in the library, and you can take any of them out and find out about any of them, and they don't have to have won, and you can also sort of slice them. However you want for different themes or for which is what we do all the time, right?

Jason Blitman: 21:51

well, and I think it's also important to realize the trajectory of the book from From getting written and published to winning or to getting on the lists in general. We'll also post, because I find it very interesting, a link to the rules and guidelines for the booker in our show notes as well, so people can take a look at that. But some publishers can only submit one book.

Gaby Wood: 22:17

I'm glad you raise that because yeah, the rules are imperfect, so everybody gets one, right? And then publishers who have had a certain amount of long listings in the past five years, which of course rotates, would get more. So if you've had one last long listing, you'd get one extra submission. If you've had two, you'd get two. And so on. Now, a lot of people feel the track record should have nothing to do with it. And you shouldn't be rewarding publishers anyway, because they move around. And really it's, if you're going to reward track record, why is it not the writers? Although it also is because, previous shortest tees get automatic entry, but my answer to that, and I do, as I say, I do think it's imperfect and I've tried to think of a system that would even it out. And. Really, my answer is just that the call in system, which is complex, but really important does even that out. So if every imprint gets to write the judges five letters, one for each book to say please call this in, then that's how you end up with lots of smaller publishers and lots. And call ins, yeah, exactly, as the animation says, often the winner is a call in. And that's important for the judges to know, so they don't think it's a slush pile,

Jason Blitman: 23:25

right. And it's also, so I said one submission, really, it's technically the smallest number is six. They're not all getting submitted, but you can, there's like the people can pitch to submit six, essentially.

Gaby Wood: 23:39

true, yeah. So you think about it as an alternative submission process rather than as afterthought, yeah.

Brett Benner: 23:45

It'd be fascinating on a side note to sit with a publisher and say, how do you decide what you're going to

Jason Blitman: 23:50

yeah.

Gaby Wood: 23:51

Totally. It's horrendous for them.

Jason Blitman: 23:53

Do you have any insight to that?

Gaby Wood: 23:55

I know it's really difficult and sometimes they call me and say, what would you recommend, we, we've got too many, would you submit this and put that as a call in or would not often, but occasionally they make those calls and I really sympathize. It's very difficult for them. I guess I, if I ever do advise them, it's to submit the one that they think is least likely to be called, or least familiar to the judges, because it's too risky to assume it'll be called in. So I think it'll be hard for them, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:24

What would you say Booker prize book is

Gaby Wood: 24:29

I like to think there isn't one, that there is, that it could be anything.

Jason Blitman: 24:33

Huh. If you were wearing your publisher hat, which you don't necessarily have one, but let's say you have one. It looks great on you.

Gaby Wood: 24:40

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

Jason Blitman: 24:42

What are some things that you would look for in the hundreds of books that you have published in a year and say, okay, these are the things that might be a book or book?

Gaby Wood: 24:54

Okay, I'll tell you, yeah, I've got two answers to that, two parts to it. One is that I, if I were a publisher, I would choose the book that I thought most rewarded re reading. So something that could be simple and subtle, but has to be rich somehow.

Jason Blitman: 25:12

huh.

Gaby Wood: 25:12

Whatever,

Jason Blitman: 25:13

answer.

Brett Benner: 25:14

That is a great answer.

Gaby Wood: 25:15

Because that's the process, right? But the other thing is... And I have been concerned about this. I worry that because the judges change every year, that there is an inclination to reward what any given panel might think of as a brave book. I wonder whether they are in the opposite direction from simplicity, or simplicity is a bad word, but

Brett Benner: 25:36

Without going onto the website and reading the rules, I wouldn't assume that there was a multiple reads going on. Of the books, I wouldn't know that, nor would I know the sheer volume of books that had to be read just at the outset, but 150 plus books that have to be read.

Jason Blitman: 25:56

I think it's exciting to understand this to your point, Gabby, about the long list and the short list aren't going anywhere once a winner is announced, because if the assumption is that the winners already chosen and we're just announcing the lists and pulling back the curtain, that isn't what's happening. It's the long list is there and then it's a restart. All right. And then it's a matter of, okay, what book is speaking to me today, or now, or on this read, and I think the judges might even be surprised by what sticks with them the second time, you

Gaby Wood: 26:28

Oh, Always. Always. That's exactly right. And I think there are a lot of prizes who, that would work backwards from the winner. Okay, we have our winner and then we've got six more slots for a short list, or five more slots for a short list, and we've got 12 more slots for a long list. But this is actually often the shortlist meeting is framed in that way. What changed for you on the second read so that they're not repeating themselves and going back to the thing that they said about that book originally, right? So that they are almost always surprised. And that's also the reason why books with that are heavily plot based often don't go past the long list stage because so for example, we've had We've had a thriller on the long list or a crime novel on the long list, I should say. And if it's mostly dependent on what happens and you already know what

Jason Blitman: 27:14

And not knowing what happens.

Gaby Wood: 27:16

Then it's not going to go through. If it has other riches, then of course, the fact that it can be propelled by plot is, is in its favor. But, so the process does make a difference to the things that are chosen, I think.

Jason Blitman: 27:27

And it's fascinating because, the fact that it made it onto the long list means it's a great book. So many books are great, but it's on the long list. It's a great book. It really just means that it wasn't a successful reread and that's okay.

Gaby Wood: 27:41

was, but not maybe not as much in

Jason Blitman: 27:43

Oh, sure. Sure. Sure. Absolutely. I don't mean that's right. That

Brett Benner: 27:46

There can only be one winner.

Jason Blitman: 27:48

No I just mean like for someone to think, Oh it didn't make the shortlist. It can't, it might not be as good as another book. It's that might not be true at all. It just means that like, when you read it one time, it's

Brett Benner: 27:58

Um, The colony.

Gaby Wood: 27:59

That's true. The Colony, I know it's so great, that book. Yeah. But again, might not be, might be that the day.

Brett Benner: 28:06

No, listen, and I will, I will say I was like, again, I was

Jason Blitman: 28:10

only have a couple of minutes left with her. We can't be talking about your grievances.

Brett Benner: 28:13

no I was gonna, I was gonna turn this into a positive and say, I was personally that the colony didn't win. I remember saying okay if that's not, I know the colony didn't make the trailer. I'm like, if that's not in there, then seven moons, I want to get it. And so I felt very vindicated and I was very happy in the end. So there you go.

Gaby Wood: 28:30

Yeah, good.

Brett Benner: 28:31

I thought it was beautiful and it spoke to me. And again, case in point

Jason Blitman: 28:34

I had a hard time making it through. So if I was on the judging panel, it would not have been shortlisted, uh, or even

Brett Benner: 28:41

and you would have been convinced.

Jason Blitman: 28:43

absolutely

Brett Benner: 28:43

mean? And all I'm saying is I'm grateful to the Booker for exposing it because that would have never been a title that would ever come across my radar despite how beautiful the cover was. So it just went up. So

Gaby Wood: 28:56

Hoons. Yeah. absolutely. Fantastic book.

Jason Blitman: 28:59

This episode is coming out the day the shortlist is announced. Can you tell us a little bit about what just happened slash what is about to happen? I don't mean with titles, I just mean in the process,

Gaby Wood: 29:12

the judges have met and they have come up with a list of six books. And they have been heartbroken, some of them. That always happens, I'm sorry. And now the six books are going to spend quite a few weeks in the air, if you like. And there's a lot of promotion of the six books. We'll talk to the authors and we'll make films of the six shortlisted books. One minute or two minute clips that are likely to be fantastic. And then there's going to be a ceremony, a winner ceremony on November 26th, which is as we said, like the Oscars. But, as I said, the vanishing, the long listed books are still there, even when the short listed books are announced. And yeah, we can, sometimes I like to pretend it never happened.

Jason Blitman: 30:00

You have judged. The Booker Prize

Gaby Wood: 30:02

Yeah. Yes. Yes, in 2011.

Jason Blitman: 30:07

Um,

Gaby Wood: 30:08

Sense of an Ending

Brett Benner: 30:09

okay.

Gaby Wood: 30:10

which is a great book. I can

Brett Benner: 30:11

It is a great book. Yeah. I read it.

Gaby Wood: 30:14

But There's a great shortlist too. Actually, Essie, Julian's second novel was on that shortlist. It's called Half Blood Blues. Fantastic book. That's when I first met her. Yeah, it was a slightly different process then, but not, but every year is different. And I I do think it contributes to my understanding of what's happening now when I'm just observing.

Jason Blitman: 30:34

No, I love that. Do you, are you able, we talked about this beginning. Do you have time to read for pleasure?

Gaby Wood: 30:41

Yes, I, but I have to make time and I, sometimes I do things that are not reading for pleasure

Jason Blitman: 30:46

That's that's probably a better question,

Brett Benner: 30:48

What do you like to watch?

Jason Blitman: 30:49

What are you doing? Because I think so many people read to unwind and enjoy their life, but I imagine that's not an easy thing for you.

Gaby Wood: 30:56

It can be, it depends what I'm reading, but I, or sometimes I reread, like I comfort read and that's the thing I do for pleasure. I think that I was going to say that I draw sometimes because that has absolutely no logical component, right? You don't have to string a sentence together. You don't have to understand. You understand in a different way. And I do think that's a little bit of an emergency valve. You know that there are so many words flying around that you can come back to reading once you've done something that is almost the opposite of

Jason Blitman: 31:24

Yeah. What are you, what do you

Gaby Wood: 31:26

What do I read for pleasure? Exactly! So I was going to say, so my test of whether I'm reading purely for pleasure or whether there's a work component, is, am I reading with a pen in my hand, Because I am a terrible marker up of things. I just almost never read without a pen in my hand, even for pleasure, because I think, Oh, I'm going to want to remember this passage. All right. And I often read for pleasure without the pen. I banish the pen, but then I start turning down the edges of pages so that I can mark the passages later and I think, Gabby, you just, you've got to stop. Just read the book. Recently, my comfort read is Nora Ephron's Heartburn.

Brett Benner: 32:02

okay.

Gaby Wood: 32:03

Yeah, that is always my comfort read. And I have recently enjoyed reading John le Carré because that's you know, there's, there are a lot of them that I hadn't read and I did not read them with a pen in my hand and they really stayed with me. So I love that. And yeah, I read, I have favorite nonfiction authors, Janet Malcolm, Joan Didion and they would never be, obviously they've gone now, but they're not booker authors by definition. And so that, that gives me a bit of a break, but I guess those are my inclinations too.

Jason Blitman: 32:37

I was surprised to see in the rules that, that you have to be, the author has to be alive when the book is submitted, but if they die along the process, then it's up to you to make a decision about whether or not they could stay in the

Gaby Wood: 32:50

And that

Jason Blitman: 32:51

Have you ever had to do that, make that decision before?

Gaby Wood: 32:53

this year with Cormac McCarthy.

Brett Benner: 32:55

Oh my

Jason Blitman: 32:56

Oh my God.

Gaby Wood: 32:57

Yeah.

Brett Benner: 32:58

Wow.

Gaby Wood: 32:59

And then, the judges said, Oh, I don't really, I don't, I think we shouldn't consider this after all. And I said,

Jason Blitman: 33:04

worth.

Gaby Wood: 33:05

I know,

Jason Blitman: 33:05

insight.

Gaby Wood: 33:06

isn't it?

Jason Blitman: 33:07

What a hard part of your job. okay. I see the time and I wanna be super mindful, but we started, you started with saying with one random question, and I wanna circle back to that and, something that you just randomly threw out into the universe. I'm really sorry for asking you this question, but why do we read?

Gaby Wood: 33:23

I asked that, didn't I?

Jason Blitman: 33:24

You did, sorry.

Gaby Wood: 33:26

Why do we read? Specifically, why do we read fiction, but not necessarily. I think we read so that we. Can live in other worlds. So we know how to take ourselves out of our own world, but also have so that we can Know what it's like to be another person so that we can practice This is gonna sound terrible for me. It's so that we can practice feeling hope about the real world because In a way, every book gives you an alternative life, and if you can imagine it, then you could build something for yourself. Sometimes when I think about children not reading, I think but you're really missing out. And it can exercise your muscles, not just your, the muscles of your imagination but your life building muscles, and so I do think it's a really useful tool and not just an escape, although it can offer that, too. That's what I think. What do you think?

Jason Blitman: 34:18

For me, it's about empathy.

Brett Benner: 34:20

Empathy.

Jason Blitman: 34:20

It's, I was just looking through all the books that I read and I, and three of them are by straight white men and the rest of them are not. And so it's, it has just been very enriching for me to experience different perspectives and I think to your point, the world building around me and having an understanding of people who are different from me is important. I guess reading straight white men is different, but not a straight white

Brett Benner: 34:52

it's, yeah, but it's the, it's a common denominator, and to the Booker, again, kudos, because as I think we all are evolving and changing and have more realization about other voices and what else is out there. I feel like these lists are also evolving and the stories that are being presented and that these judges are choosing are reflective of our society and world at large. And I think that's a really wonderful thing. And it's not just a group of, straight white men writing about, things. So the kind of quilt has gotten larger and that's really a great thing to see.

Gaby Wood: 35:31

Oh, good. Yeah, I agree. I think what, yeah, in a way when I was answering your question, I was thinking about younger people, like, why would you take up reading? And now I think sometimes I talk to the judges and I think I, when I'm asking who they want to be on a panel with, and I say, who do you, who would you like to think with? And actually, I think the books do that too. You're thinking with the characters. You're thinking alongside the authors or, there's something about that.

Brett Benner: 35:55

I also believe like people have said, and I've said this all the time, where people are like I don't really like to read. And I said, I don't believe I can think of anybody can be a reader. You just haven't found the book that's right for you. You haven't found your entryway into it yet. I sometimes find out like my daughter in particular, she'll read like when she's at camp. But it's kills me. It kills my soul that I can. I'll give her a book and be like, I really think, but I, the hope is in time, she'll discover those things and see those things. And because I do, I feel like it's a world and it's a, It's a bomb to me personally and what it does is such an incredible thing and the world it opens up and the way that we can have these conversations and even for Jason and I to meet, but, and all of it. I think it's just such a, such an incredible thing, especially with everything that's going on in the world right now. I think it's, I think it's a necessary thing.

Gaby Wood: 36:48

How old is your daughter? Yeah,

Brett Benner: 36:49

I have a 16 year old daughter and then my son is 19. So

Gaby Wood: 36:53

16. It's hard to, yeah, lots of people aren't in the habit of reading at 16, but she would have to find it for herself, wouldn't she? This is the terrible thing as a parent. It doesn't matter how many books you give your kids. They need to find their own way

Brett Benner: 37:03

this is, yeah. And this is the genius she has. A lot of her friends are very bookish and she was at camp this summer and she came home and she's I read this book and I loved it so much. No, I have to tell you this. I'm going to tell you the title and you're going to laugh because had I presented this, I would never even have thought of presenting this to her because I was like, here's Colleen Hoover. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but here's Colleen Hoover. But what she said was, I read this book and it just, it totally took me. It was Sally Rooney's normal people. And so I was like,

Gaby Wood: 37:28

great.

Brett Benner: 37:29

amazing. And she was like, it was beautiful. And she said the way she spoke, I identified with her and I was like, Oh, okay. Okay. And so I had to refrain from suddenly scouring, through all of my books to pull out everything else, here's another Rooney and let's move on to this. And, I thought, okay, we'll just take the time but what a place to launch off. And I feel like I should reach out to her friend who gave her the book and said, you have to read this, who is a avid reader, because I'm like this is how it starts. And that's great.

Jason Blitman: 37:55

Just start telling your friends what books you want her to read and

Brett Benner: 37:57

That's a right. That's exactly right. That's

Gaby Wood: 38:00

You need a mole.

Jason Blitman: 38:02

Exactly. Gabby, thank you for doing all of your, all of the book championing

Brett Benner: 38:07

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 38:08

the work that you're doing with the Booker Foundation. In addition to the prize, very cool stuff you've got going on

Gaby Wood: 38:14

you. Will you have me back to, I want to hear what you think of the shortlist.

Jason Blitman: 38:17

Oh,

Brett Benner: 38:17

Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 38:18

Brett's going to be, he, Who does he, who can he email? He said give, don't give Brett the judge's

Brett Benner: 38:24

I will say the funniest thing, again, with all the Instagram folks, it was the initial thing before the long list even came out and the buildup, it's gotten social media has really propelled this to such a level now, which is really cool. However, all I kept thinking was like, I remember people were posting their lists of what they thought the 13 would be. And I was like. It would be just so great if I get, six or seven of them. I have that I've already read. You don't want to have to start to read them. And then when I looked at the list and I like I read one, all right, here we go. That's another reason to hope for the Paul Murray, because if it's on the short list, it's the biggest one and I've already read it.

Gaby Wood: 39:00

not the only reason.

Brett Benner: 39:02

No. I love it. I told you I loved it so

Jason Blitman: 39:03

We also do bookshop. org links for every episode. So we'll include the whole long list in this episode. And the other books that you've mentioned, including Heartburn by Nora Efron. So people,

Gaby Wood: 39:17

Always

Jason Blitman: 39:18

we should have you back once after October when everything is done. We can reflect on the year and what's ahead.

Gaby Wood: 39:24

Thank you. I'd love that. Yeah, thanks and thank you so much for being so inspiring and devoted and, great readers and as you say champions but also for following the booker and for being so positive about it because it makes means a lot

Jason Blitman: 39:38

it's our pleasure.

Brett Benner: 39:40

Thank you.

Gaby Wood: 39:41

thanks. Bye.

Brett Benner: 39:42

Bye.

Jason Blitman: 39:42

I am embarrassed to admit that the House of Doors is the only booker listed book that I have read on the list.

Brett Benner: 39:52

Booker the mark of a good book for the most part is something that's going to resonate with me if I could still be thinking of something weeks later or months later, then that to me is the mark of a good book. And this is House of Doors is one. Certainly there were a lot of these Paul, old God's time was another one to me that I know it didn't work for some people., I thought about it so much since I finished it, as well as Paul Murray's The Bee Sting is another one that I can't stop thinking about

Jason Blitman: 40:18

I'm excited, that this is dropping when it is,

Brett Benner: 40:21

Yeah. That we could be in one of our other guests could be a shortlister

Jason Blitman: 40:25

he could be a shortlister, but what he definitely is is a three time longlister, one time shortlister, potentially two time shortlister, depending on what happens today,

Brett Benner: 40:36

and potentially one time winner

Jason Blitman: 40:38

and a potentially one time winner! I know! There's lots of potential. Tan Tuan Ng has a lot of potential!

Brett Benner: 40:45

He really does.

Jason Blitman: 40:46

So now, here is our conversation with three time Booker nominee Tan Tuan Ng. Enjoy!

Brett Benner: 40:54

Enjoy. Hello.

Tan Twan Eng: 40:58

Hello. Hello. Hello. Good. It's morning here. I see it's what? Half

Brett Benner: 41:03

Good morning.

Tan Twan Eng: 41:05

It's Tuesday morning, but it's Monday evening for

Brett Benner: 41:08

Monday evening.

Jason Blitman: 41:09

You are coming to us from the future.

Tan Twan Eng: 41:11

Yeah. I'm in I'm in Kuala Lumpur in my mother's house.

Jason Blitman: 41:14

we had a fantastic conversation with Gabby Wood, and we are, we're including, we were like, ooh we were Excited about you. You're a three time Booker nominee and what a great person to include in this conversation.

Tan Twan Eng: 41:26

She's great, isn't she? Yes. Yeah. I really only got to know her because they invited me to be one of the judges for the International Booker Prize last year. So I got to know her better, met her a few times and she's wonderful, really passionate about the prize and literature and writers as well. So it was

Jason Blitman: 41:41

Can you tell us about that experience?

Tan Twan Eng: 41:43

I wasn't keen to accept it when They sent me an email I think it was early last year because I was preparing editing The House of Dwarves and trying to get it into print. So I wasn't keen at all, but of course you can't say no when the Booker Prize calls, can

Jason Blitman: 41:58

hmm.

Tan Twan Eng: 41:59

You just can't. You just, there's no way you can. So I said yes with a lot of trepidation but it's been so enjoyable. First of all, the organization has they made it so easy for the judges. We didn't have to do anything except read the books, paperwork, admin arrangements of meetings, zooms, everything was done by them. We just had to show up and talk about the book. So it was fun. I was quite scared of the other judges as well because they were, they are the top of the profession. So I felt a bit of a fraud going in and said, Oh my God, they're going to ask me some question and I won't be able to answer something intelligently. To my surprise, everybody was extremely nice. There was no ego, no, no diva behavior. We got along extremely well. And when it was over on the last night, after we announced the prizes, we didn't want the evening to end. We just had a group hug and then we went to the pub and it was about 2 a. m. when we finally left. We didn't want it to end. And we read about 135 books in about eight months. It was heavy. It was tough. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 43:01

Ha. Were you a big reader prior to that?

Tan Twan Eng: 43:02

Yes, I was, I think it's affected everyone as well with the rise of smartphones and iPads. You get so easily distracted. You read for a couple of pages and then you're going to say, okay, let's see if there's anything in my email. And it's terrible. I actually had to switch off my phone. And everything else just to force myself to, okay, not, let's not be distracted and let's just read as much as possible. It's, I don't know whether you feel that way about,

Brett Benner: 43:28

Oh, absolutely.

Tan Twan Eng: 43:29

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 43:29

Can you talk about your experience working as a judge for the international prize. and how being a nominee affected your experience as a judge and how being a judge affected your experience as a nominee?

Tan Twan Eng: 43:43

know I suppose that's what the Brits call you a poacher and then you became a gamekeeper. So I've been on both sides of the estate, it was one of the reasons I also accepted the invitation was to find out how things work behind the scenes. I was curious about that. I've got a better understanding of the process and a deeper sympathy for the judges. The work is incredibly difficult, but I also have more sympathy for who don't make the, either the long list or the short list, or even don't win because it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking for the judges to to have to choose. one particular book out of so many when there's so many books that are also deserving and excellent. It's extremely heartbreaking. And when I was Discussing my favorites and trying to go for the long list and then the short list. I was always aware of how My decisions would impact the authors It shouldn't be it should be just based on the supposedly the quality of the book but you can't help being aware of the periphery of okay, this author is not as well known as the other author and to put this author on the long list and the short list would really elevate his profile worldwide. And these factors they creep in they really creep in and it's very hard to be objective and just focus on the quality of the writing. Because to be honest, you can't, you're always aware of these extraneous issues coming in, crowding in. And also, if, oh this all. Walter has already won so many prizes, and would this win actually add anything to his career or his, or the public's awareness of him? When the books are equal in quality, you tend to start looking at outside factors as well. So I have great sympathy for not just the judges but the authors as well. It's it's a painful process in many ways.

Brett Benner: 45:33

And have you found literary prizes in general have grown so much in conjunction with social media. from, from the first time you were nominated to now?

Tan Twan Eng: 45:43

Yes. Especially the first time I was nominated was for the gift of rain in 2007. Social media wasn't such a huge presence in in, in the machinery of the whole prize industry. You have to call it an industry in many ways now. And then with the second nomination I could see as well Twitter started coming in a lot of social media discussion blogs and websites as well. They started dissecting the books and being very harsh as well. And with this one as well, this is even worse. Now you've got YouTube reviewers, commentators, you've got Instagram and the comments have even become more critical. And even harsh, much harsher than it used to be. People are more vocal about what they hate or what they dislike. They are more picky. It's quite frightening sometimes. Sometimes I do I looked at some of these when they say, Oh, they're discussing the long list. And I tell myself I shouldn't listen to it. But you,

Jason Blitman: 46:35

It's hard to look away. It's

Tan Twan Eng: 46:36

hard. It's temptation.

Jason Blitman: 46:38

for many years and you want to see what people think about

Tan Twan Eng: 46:40

Yes. But especially when the, when your book first comes out, the first few weeks when the House of Doors was published in the UK, you I just couldn't resist it. I just went in and just look at the percentages and the rating. I didn't look at the reviews yet just to see how many stars. And I, when I see that, okay it's gathering quite a respectable amount of. four, four and a half. I try to avoid it now because it's quite pointless. The book has found its feet and the reader, so it has to make its way into the world on its own now,

Jason Blitman: 47:09

You said that you had the potential to elevate the profile of an author worldwide by giving them the prize. Did you feel like getting on the, being a three time longlist y, one time shortlist y, that happened to you?

Tan Twan Eng: 47:25

I absolutely I was completely unknown when The Gift of Rain was published. The all the publishers in the UK turned that book down, all of them. I'm not kidding. All of them. And it took a newly established independent publisher in Newcastle who said, okay, we want to book. So they published a book. And then none of the bookshops in the UK wanted to stock it. They weren't, they just were not interested. They said, this is a book about, where's that, where's the country? Oh Malaysia. Where is it? The readers won't be interested. We don't even know where to shelve the book. So when the gift of rain was long, suddenly my publisher started getting calls from the bookshop chains, how can we get a stock of this book? So it's helped. It's suddenly. Created a demand and an interest. And with the the second one as well that, that really. Push pushed up the readers awareness of my books and myself so it book prices are very important. I don't know whether to say unfortunately, Or not.

Jason Blitman: 48:24

And it's, you're in such a unique position because how many books have you published

Tan Twan Eng: 48:29

Three is.

Jason Blitman: 48:30

and how many times have you been long listed?

Tan Twan Eng: 48:32

As I keep, as I told my friends, I really should stop writing and publishing because then I'll always have that 100 percent strike rate record.

Jason Blitman: 48:39

Now is the time. You're done. Does it get old?

Tan Twan Eng: 48:43

No, it gets, I'm not jaded yet and I shouldn't be if I were, I've told my friends to please slap me if I sound jaded and ungrateful, that's even worse. I wasn't expecting the House of Dwarves to be even considered. For the long list because a, I've been away from the publishing scene for almost 10 years. My previous book was published 10 years ago. I try not to, ride on the current bandwagon of what's fashionable in terms of issues. So I try to write about something that is timeless rather than timely. Because having worked on 10 years on the book, I want my book to endure. And the only way I feel that a book will endure is you, if you the story and or is timeless. So I try to focus on that and I'm quite aware that often the noise of the prize is very much. Focus on very pertinent issues. But, it drowns out other things in the book as well, which is terms of the quality of the writing the strength of the storyline, which is for me is very important. And I think the House of Doors, I intentionally made it to be extremely subtle. There's so much, as I say, noise in books these days that I wanted to go the other way. I wanted to go to almost, it's almost soundless. Perhaps I'm shooting myself in the foot because There are days when I feel that it's probably too subtle for its own good, based on some of the comments I've read, good reads, where they miss out or they criticize something. But I, and I'm feeling, but it's there, you have to just read a bit more. I think I've been, I might have been too subtle for the book's good..

Jason Blitman: 50:17

It's funny because maybe subtle for the book's good in the long run, but something that Gabby was just talking to us about is how, we essentially were saying what makes a good Booker Prize book. And she said, because of the way the judging process works, that, the best Booker Prize books are re readable.

Tan Twan Eng: 50:39

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 50:40

And what do you can use this, it seems like you would confirm that is true as a judge.

Tan Twan Eng: 50:45

One of the criteria I set for myself and when I was arguing and discussing my choices with the other judges was that, this is a book that because once you've selected it for the long list, you have to read it again for the short list. And do I want to read that book again? It has to survive subsequent rereadings and it has to. Reveal more things that which you missed the first time around. And I think that's not just for the Booker Prize, but for, it should be a test for all books,

Brett Benner: 51:13

sure.

Tan Twan Eng: 51:14

The book has to grow with you as a mature with you over the, if you read it. Three years from now, and you're a different person, it still has to speak to you in a different way. And you have to see certain things which you had missed three years ago, because you weren't the same person then. But you are a different person now, and you see something different in there. And I feel that's the test of what is a timeless classic. It endures through, through different periods of not just history, but also your individual growth and maturity as well.

Jason Blitman: 51:41

I closed the book, and if that was the one time I read the book, it was a very satisfying meal for me, but I will say, I was telling Brett yesterday, I was like, I did want to go back, and I read the first chapter again and with Gabby telling us that's what makes a good booker book. I was like, Brett, I think it's going to do well.

Tan Twan Eng: 52:00

And the other complication with something like the Booker Prize is because they change the panel of judges every year. So you can't predict, you can't predict what the judges taste.

Jason Blitman: 52:10

Which is amazing because then it's different every year and it's different taste every year.

Tan Twan Eng: 52:14

Certain prizes I've seen, I can almost predict because they keep the same panel of judges for five, six, seven years, and you can start to see the pattern with a booker it's extremely difficult. So it's it's very, it's unpredictable.

Brett Benner: 52:27

There's so many people they try to immediately analyze what the judges are trying to say with their choices, what they're trying to do without maybe the knowledge of what actually goes through the entire process, that it might be less about what they're trying to say and what actually spoke to them as a collective unit to come to these decisions.

Tan Twan Eng: 52:46

It's very often. With my experience we had quite a uniform agreement, In terms of not only the long list and all the short list, but also the winner, I was quite surprised, because the winner was actually one of my very early favorites. Very early, it was probably book number 25 or 26 in the first batch. We get batches of 25 to 30 every couple of weeks. So the moment I read that, I thought, Oh, this is very special. And I think I liked this and I wanted to go all the way and even at that stage already. So it's sometimes there'll be a particular book that, that hits you right from the start, and it doesn't change. Some of the judges might change their favorites. They might decide, no, I don't like it anymore. So it's very unpredictable. So there's really, when I read the comments and the discussions on social media I'm actually smiling as well, because I'm saying you're actually wasting a lot of time trying to predict what's coming because you can't, you really can't, there's no algorithm. There's no nothing.

Jason Blitman: 53:43

And there's something else to be said about the chatter online. Even, if they're talking about your book, good, bad, or whatever, they're talking about

Tan Twan Eng: 53:51

they're talking about

Jason Blitman: 53:52

thing that you spend so long writing, even if they're saying terrible things about it, it's how nice to be engaging people in conversation. And that's what the, what art is for,

Tan Twan Eng: 54:01

oh, before I forget, I want to say because you said you had finished the book try and read Somerset Maugham's letter, because then you'll

Brett Benner: 54:07

we did. I did.

Jason Blitman: 54:08

Brett just emailed it to me. He sent it. So I know I need to read that.

Tan Twan Eng: 54:11

You

Brett Benner: 54:12

seen another interview with you where you talked about how that's

Tan Twan Eng: 54:14

reflect. Yeah. They reflect each other. Yes. Yes.

Brett Benner: 54:17

Which made total sense with even the, with Leslie and the, because when you read that in, in House of Doors, I was a little confused and everything made sense when I started the letter. I thought, oh, there it is.

Tan Twan Eng: 54:29

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 54:30

but we should transition to talk about House of Doors because I think Brett and I are like salivating to talk to you about it. Is there anything that, that someone doesn't know about the Booker or that some inside scoop how that you said you, you wanted to do it, but you agreed to do it because you wanted to see how the sausage is made as if you will, but terrible phrase. Is there something that you learned other than sympathy for the judges and the readers and the authors? But is there anything that, that our listeners should know that they might not otherwise know?

Tan Twan Eng: 54:59

I, all I can say is it's a very well run organization. It's, it runs with military precision.

Jason Blitman: 55:05

Amazing.

Tan Twan Eng: 55:06

Everything has been planned social media releases. Everything has been carefully thought out. If you want to try and predict what's coming, you actually have to decode what they've been putting out. That's what I felt. I didn't have much discussion with the social media side, but from what I can see, it was it's very, That's extremely well run, really. I think all of us were quite surprised by how efficient the people were. Now, if you go for a meeting in London, they've already booked a conference a room in an office building somewhere. There's food prepared for lunch because they know you're going to work through lunch and they've arranged the cars to pick you up from your hotel, to

Jason Blitman: 55:46

How long would a meeting last in one of those conference rooms?

Tan Twan Eng: 55:49

We've met only in person about three or four times, so it would last about three to five hours. Yeah. Yeah. But fascinating. I've always been a book industry nerd ever since I was young. And when I was young, I would open the copyright page and try to decipher what all these things meant. So to be sitting in there I found it extremely

Brett Benner: 56:06

The rumor, it

Jason Blitman: 56:07

cool.

Brett Benner: 56:08

And would you do it again if they asked you?

Tan Twan Eng: 56:10

I don't know. It is like, what? Like one of

Brett Benner: 56:12

You don't have to commit to that

Jason Blitman: 56:14

our listeners cannot see the look of terror on

Brett Benner: 56:17

It really was.

Tan Twan Eng: 56:18

It's like one, one of the judges William Blacker, he's he was one of my fellow judges lovely guy. When we saw the news about the new panel of judges for the International Booker Prize, and William just emailed us and said, I feel excited and sorry for them at the same time. So that's it.

Brett Benner: 56:35

Yeah, that was going to be my other question. Do you guys have, did you continue to keep up with each other?

Tan Twan Eng: 56:40

Yeah, we were lucky in for instance, we, me with Fred and Frederick Studeman, he's the literary editor of the Financial Times and one of the judges, and Leila. So we had, after the IBF was announced I still had literary events. to promote House of Doors and to talk about the IBF winner at Hay and Bar. Fred and I kept catching up and seeing each other traveling together on the train. So it was, it's like an, it was an extension of our judging duties. And it was very lovely. And on the final day of a final event, we took the train back from Hay. So I, we knew it was the last time we would see each other for the, for anything Booker related. So on, at at the train station in, I think it was in I don't know, one of the train stations we got to the concourse there and I stopped him and said Fred this is it. This is the end. And then we gave each other a big hug and then we went our separate ways.

Jason Blitman: 57:29

Oh,

Tan Twan Eng: 57:30

It

Jason Blitman: 57:30

that's so sweet.

Brett Benner: 57:31

That is.

Tan Twan Eng: 57:32

My, my bromance.

Brett Benner: 57:34

There's

Jason Blitman: 57:34

And now you're like, I don't ever want to talk to him about books ever

Brett Benner: 57:37

that's exactly right. Don't even recommend me anything, thank you so

Tan Twan Eng: 57:42

Okay. Thanks

Jason Blitman: 57:43

Have a great day. All right. Bye Bye.

Tan Twan Eng: 57:44

Bye.

Brett Benner: 57:45

And now I'm like, I want now it's like I'm so invested invested in getting shortlisted is what I'm

Jason Blitman: 57:51

I know. It's the only book or book I've read and I'm like, it's the winner to me. I learned so much about the Booker Prize and prizes in general. I, it really gave me such a new appreciation for what these prizes mean. I have to say I wasn't. really aware of much of them. I didn't necessarily care about them. and listen, I think there's also taking it with a grain of salt because books are books. It's not dissimilar from reviews, but it's nice to know how much care goes into, the selection process. And yeah, I feel like I learned a lot. And of course, every booker book from the long list and all of Tan Tuan Eng's books are going to be in our bookshop. org link. So you could find that in our show notes.

Brett Benner: 58:33

Awesome. Thank you all for listening. We hope you enjoyed this special episode from the Booker front lines and,

Jason Blitman: 58:39

of front lines.

Brett Benner: 58:41

we will see you. Next week with an all new episode with Nathan Hill and his new book, Wellness. So tune in then please if you'd like what you're hearing, like and subscribe, if you haven't already tell all your friends. Also if you want some Gays Ready merchandise, please get some, a mug or a t shirt. We have really fun tote bags. All of that will be in our information on the page,

Jason Blitman: 59:04

our show. No,

Brett Benner: 59:06

Thank you for listening.

Jason Blitman: 59:07

All right, everyone. See you next week.

Brett Benner: 59:09

you next week.