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Gays Reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gays Reading. From Pulitzer stars to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays Reading! Um, uh, Hello, and welcome back to Gays Reading. I am your host, Jason. And I am so excited to be back here at the podcast. Welcome back to those of you who have joined Gays Reading before. And if this is your first time listening, I'm very happy to have you. We have a whole back catalog of episodes. And I look forward to you taking a look huge, shout out to the fantastic singer. Kyle Sherman, dear friend of mine. Who's saying the new Gays Reading theme song. I apologize in advance. You might have it in your head for a few days. I know. I certainly did. And it is so, so, so fun. some other cool things going on. We are now on YouTube. If you head on over to the gays reading YouTube channel, the link to that is in the show notes. It's also. In the link tree on the Instagram page. you can watch all of the conversations on YouTube. I am a little bit of a mess in this episode with Elif Shafak because there was a lot going on. I knocked over my water. We had a hard time getting on the link. So I look like a bit of a crazy person. My hair is all over the place. I'm sweating profusely. but it's still a fun watch. Elif Shafak. She is an award-winning British Turkish author of a dozen novels, including the island of missing trees. And 10 minutes, 38 seconds in this strange world, which was shortlisted for the Booker prize. Her work has been translated into 56 languages and her full bio will also be in the show notes. So many things in the show notes, check out the link to the bookshop.org page, where you can buy the book that we're talking about on every episode. Also new to Gays Reading it's on every episode, we're going to feature a guest gay reader. So make sure you stick around to the end, to hear the conversation with the gay reader to learn what they're reading these days. And in today's episode with Elif, we talk a lot about storytelling and the importance of hearing underrepresented voices, and it is the absolute perfect launching episode for me to also share that in concert with gays reading, I'm starting a nonprofit to amplify queer voices called outspoken. There's not much more I can share right now, but if you go to, weareoutspoken.org you could sign up. Enter your email address to learn more. As soon as I'm able to share more. So, thanks for checking that out. So many things to share with you. If you like what you're hearing, please share gays reading with your friends. follow us on Instagram at. Gays Reading. And like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, if you could give a five star review, it's super, super helpful for other people to find the podcast when they are searching. You know, in the algorithm makes it so much easier for people to find Gays Reading. And without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with the wonderful Elif Shafak.

Jason Blitman: 4:27

We did it. We're here.

Elif Shafak: 4:29

Yes. I'm so glad. Yeah. I'm so, so happy to join you. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 4:34

Thank you. It's Elif?

Elif Shafak: 4:37

Yes. Yeah. Whichever, really, I wouldn't even hear the difference.

Jason Blitman: 4:41

No, no, no, not whichever. What do you say?

Elif Shafak: 4:43

Honestly, I'm so used to maybe both pronunciations. Honestly, I wouldn't hear the difference. So Elif, Elif, however it comes to you. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:53

What does your mother say?

Elif Shafak: 4:55

My mother says Elif. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 4:59

mother says then. Um, hello. I am, this is, Have you ever thought about starting a religion? Because I, I would, I would follow you.

Elif Shafak: 5:14

You're amazing.

Jason Blitman: 5:17

It's a good thing that I booked this conversation before doing a deep dive on you, because otherwise I would have been too overwhelmed, and I wouldn't have wanted to talk to you. So, but here we are.

Elif Shafak: 5:31

I'm so excited and thank you. Thank you for your words. It really means a lot.

Jason Blitman: 5:36

No, listen, I, if we all thought in the way that you did, I, there are so many things to talk about. First of all, your new book, there are rivers in the sky. I could talk to you for two weeks about all of my little tabs. I could talk to you forever and forever about storytelling, about philosophy, about all sorts of things. I'm, I am so excited for a lot of reasons to be talking to you. All right, we're here to talk about the book. We'll talk about storytelling in a minute. There are rivers in the sky. Do you have an elevator pitch, a log line for the book yet?

Elif Shafak: 6:13

I struggle, you know, I struggle because I, I, I don't know how to talk about this book yet. It's, it's just out and it's just meeting its readers. So it's also very new for me. And I've been living with the story in my mind for such a long time. As you know, you know, writing a story requires so much solitude. I would say this is a whole novel that is based on a single drop of water. Just a raindrop. That was the beginning for me. So even though it looks quite simple. It's like, um, like a big book in the sense that its canvas is quite broad because it does span centuries and continents and cultures, um, but in fact, everything is started with just a tiny drop of water.

Jason Blitman: 7:02

yeah. And in the book, you talk about how water is the consummate immigrant. Would you say, was, was part of the goal to also write an immigrant story?

Elif Shafak: 7:13

Yes, indeed. And I, I am an immigrant myself. I say this in, in two different ways. I physically, I am an immigrant in the UK. This country became my home and I have a strong sense of attachment. But also, there's a sense of loss of something else. So there's, there's, maybe there's a, maybe there's a melancholy, or, or it's a much more fractured existence that I'm very much aware of. But also, there's a second layer of, immigration in the sense that I am an immigrant in this language as well. As you can hear in my accent, in, you know, my mispronunciation, the things I can never pronounce. This is not my native tongue. This is not my mother tongue. So English for me is an acquired language. And I love it and I feel very connected to it. But at the same time, like many immigrants, I'm very aware of the gap between the mind and the tongue. I think often the mind runs. faster, and the tongue is trying to catch up, and you're aware of the things that not necessarily you're able to say, but you're, you fail to say. And that can be quite motivating, it can sometimes be daunting, but my point is, I love languages and commuting between languages also maybe, encourages me to pay more attention to words, those words that cannot be translated easily. So I do not take language for granted and I try to pay more attention to how I say things, not only what I'm saying.

Jason Blitman: 8:45

What you just said about the connection between the mind and the tongue, makes me also think about so much of the book is about memory.

Elif Shafak: 8:53

yeah. Well,

Jason Blitman: 8:57

title of the book could be The Memory of Water. And cause I think that's at the heart of the book so much of what it is about. Do you, do you have a good memory? I do.

Elif Shafak: 9:10

I have, um, maybe a more visual memory, um, yeah, and, well, I'm always interested in, in, in memory. And of course, I come from a country, my motherland, Turkey, a country that has a very rich and long history, but that does not necessarily translate into strong memory. I think just the opposite. We are a society of collective amnesia. and most of the history that is taught to us, the kind of history that I've learned at school in Turkey, is actually his story. And when I say that, I particularly mean men in positions of power and authority, not men who have no access to power or authority. So working class men or men from disadvantaged backgrounds. Their stories are erased as well. And particularly, if you ask questions about the stories of women, minorities, you know, what was life like in the Ottoman Empire for women? For a concubine in the harem? Or for an Armenian silversmith? Or a Jewish miller? Or a Kurdish peasant? Or an Arab farmer? Or a Greek sailor? You know, if the moment you ask these seemingly micro questions, There's a big silence, so I think part of a writer's job is to dig deep into those silences. I'm always drawn to silences, not only to stories.

Jason Blitman: 10:28

it's interesting that you say that specifically because, so many themes in this book, you go on to say in the book that story time is different from clock time.

Elif Shafak: 10:41

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 10:42

Storytime, and I'm, I'm quoting you, Storytime understands the fragility of peace, fickleness of circumstances, the dangers lurking in the night, but also appreciates small acts of kindness. That is why minorities do not live in clock time. They live in storytime. And so what you were just saying about, you know, minorities not having that power, um, do you think, is that what makes the best story?

Elif Shafak: 11:11

Well, minorities, they don't have that power. Also, sometimes memory is all you have. Um, I am endlessly interested in, um, you know, people who have experienced some kind of displacement, or trauma. We always talk about family stories, but there are also family silences. And, and as a writer, I'm interested in how different generations deal with trauma and how trauma can be sometimes inherited or the silences can be inherited. So when you focus on, and this is something I've seen on both sides of the Atlantic, to be honest. So when you speak with the oldest generations, the ones who, the elderly, the ones who have experienced the biggest traumas and sufferings and, and. Perhaps sort of problems. Of course, they do not necessarily talk about these things. Of course, they haven't forgotten, but they don't know how to talk about them. So it sits in their chest inside. Now, the second generation immigrants, understandably, they have to be forward looking, future oriented, tabula rasa, a new beginning. They need to find their feet. So they don't have the time or the will to engage with the past. But that leaves the third or fourth generations, the youngest in these families. Who are today asking the biggest questions about their ancestors journeys about their ancestral heritage and the memories of their grandparents. So you can come across young people carrying actually quite old memories. And I'm always interested in those generational differences when it comes to dealing with

Jason Blitman: 12:48

well, and something you just said, that the, that the, the youngest generation, it sounds like they're most willing to ask questions. Which is almost surprising because of the soundbite world that they live in. I mean, I feel like I'm, I'm straddling that soundbite world too these days. Why do you think that is? Why do you think young people are asking questions to To carry on the memory

Elif Shafak: 13:15

Well, um, it gives us a sense of identity, belonging, rootedness. These questions matter. The past matters, not in order to get stuck in the past, of course not. But we can never heal if we cannot learn from the past. And I think what is repressed, comes back and cannot be repaired. So in order to repair, we need memory. Memory is a responsibility. And unfortunately, in this age in which we are bombarded by morsels of information and sound bites, I think we need to talk about the importance of memory. I make a distinction between information knowledge and wisdom. They're not the same thing. And I think we live in an age in which we are bombarded by information every day, every moment of our lives. So there's way too much information, more than we can absorb, but very little knowledge and even less wisdom. And I think we need to change that ratio completely. Let's deal with less information because information gives us the illusion. That we know something about every subject. And what we have forgotten is to say, I don't know. I don't know was actually a very important point, that kind of humility. Today, you know, we can ask each other anything and everything. If we don't know the answer, we just Google it. And in the next five seconds, we can say a few words, giving us the illusion that we that that's knowledge, but actually it's not. For proper knowledge, I think we need to slow down. Knowledge cannot be rushed. For knowledge, we need, um, conversations. We need to listen to each other. We need slow journalism. We need books. We need literary festivals where we can hold nuanced conversations. And ultimately, for wisdom, And I think that should be our aim. We need to bring the mind and the heart together because wisdom requires empathy. Wisdom requires emotional intelligence. So I want to put less emphasis on information, but hopefully more emphasis on knowledge and wisdom.

Jason Blitman: 15:18

I'm just gonna remind you and our listeners that I started this conversation by asking if you ever thought about starting a religion. Because I, I can't help it. My response to that is yes, preach, right? Like that's, I, it is such a powerful, um, Uh, thought exercise, and I was just, I was so excited that you started talking about that, because one, two, three, my third note down, I don't know if you could

Elif Shafak: 15:44

I can see and I'm so grateful. This is amazing. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 15:48

information versus knowledge versus wisdom. I already, you know, it's clearly You know, and, and faith and doubt, the dance and how we learn from the, you know, the differences between faith and doubt and information and knowledge and wisdom. I think there's so, um, these little intricacies that we experience in life that we don't necessarily pay enough attention to.

Elif Shafak: 16:09

Of course, I hear the kindness in your voice, and I'm very grateful for that. About, you know, starting a religion, the joke. For the kindness, I'm very grateful. But if I may say this, I do not feel close to um, organized religions at all, uh, because there's, um, there's,

Jason Blitman: 16:30

do I, let's be very clear.

Elif Shafak: 16:32

indeed, indeed, and there's always, um, because at the heart of organized religions there's always a distinction between us versus them, and somehow the assumption that us is either better or worse. Or us is somehow closer to truth or closer to God than them. So that duality doesn't sit well with me. It's not close to my heart. I like maybe spiritual journeys which are individual, like our fingerprints. And that I think requires the dance of faith and doubt. Um, maybe what I don't like is certainty, the certainty of religiosity or the certainty of maybe absolute atheism. But what I'm talking about, and I think what you are talking about, is something else. Maybe about a bit more agnostic people who can say you know what I don't know the answers. I'm on a journey I'm still learning. It's an open ended journey People who love the dance of faith and doubt in which you know, you love it when doubt challenges faith That's a good thing because faith without doubt is a dogma and dogmas are dangerous But in life, we also need secular faith. I think that's important So let them talk to each other let them challenge each other and I think that is a good combination Mm

Jason Blitman: 17:43

Yeah, thank you for saying that. You know, it's, it's interesting, because now I'm challenging myself. Why, why is it that that was my first? Why was religion my first thought? And I, and I do wonder, is it because I was hearing you say things that I could get on board with, that I could champion, that I could, that I, that I would be interested in sharing with other people? And so my, my first thought was, oh, this must be my first thought. what people who participate in organized religion feel like, right? So I, that, I feel like that's maybe how I was equating it, but really it's a matter of watching somebody, listening to somebody, uh, sort of work through thinking about the world that is what's inspiring. And so I feel like by you practicing that in your daily life is is doing just what I'm asking of you, right? Like it's, you are, you are doing that thing. Um, so I guess really instead of saying, have you thought about starting one? I should say, thank you for always being vulnerable. Thank you for always expressing yourself because what you're doing is inspiring people like me to do the same

Elif Shafak: 18:58

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 19:02

back to storytelling.

Elif Shafak: 19:03

to storytelling. Oh,

Jason Blitman: 19:08

it's, it's such a big part of the book. Do you have a tattoo?

Elif Shafak: 19:12

I had a tattoo, yes, but, um, I had, yes, I had an owl.

Jason Blitman: 19:17

Oh, what was it? So you, you say people think a tattoo is an act of rebellion or something, but actually it's a form of storytelling.

Elif Shafak: 19:24

True.

Jason Blitman: 19:25

What's the, can you tell us the story of the owl? Or is it too personal? I don't know. We don't have to pry.

Elif Shafak: 19:29

No, no, it's not personal. I had it many years ago in Istanbul. Um, I love tattoos, you know, I, I'm always interested in, maybe that's why there's a tattoo artist in, in, in the book, but I also wanted to connect, um, today, the art of tattoo is, um, usually associated with rebellion and with youth, but also there is, um, non Western side to it, or for instance, many, many minorities would also relate across the Western world to this. There's a history behind tattoos. So I wanted to make those connections. So for instance, as you travel across the Middle East, you might come across elderly women, for instance, elderly Kurdish women with facial tattoos. And each symbol tells a story. And sometimes new symbols are added as a person ages. Um, it gets older. So I'm endlessly interested in, in those, in those things. Basically, I think what connects us, of course, is, is our love for storytelling. And we both know that people find different ways of expressing their stories. Sometimes they can't do it through words. So they do it through food. Like my grandmother was like that. You know, she, she had gone through so much and she wouldn't know how to talk about these things but she would instead feed you. You know, she would cook for you. And food was her love language. For some other people, maybe tattoo is the way they express themselves. So I'm endlessly interested in those non verbal ways of communication.

Jason Blitman: 20:59

you, that was an

Elif Shafak: 21:01

an owl, yes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 21:05

again, I think I'm just so fascinated by the art of storytelling and generations of passing down stories. I feel like I could have talked to you for an hour about the prologue alone, because so much of it is about, quote unquote, the beginning of everything, you know, and I feel like we don't, we don't really think about the beginning of things. We're thinking about the present, which I think is a good thing, but to reflect on where we've come from, uh, like our memory is, is so important. The, in the book, it's, you talk about the only way to be remembered is to leave behind a good story.

Elif Shafak: 21:42

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 21:43

what does that mean to you? Hmm. Hmm.

Elif Shafak: 21:49

question. It's a tough question. I think, um, stories. This is the way I connect with the world. This is the way I connect with myself. I started writing fiction at an early age. I've been writing since my childhood, but that's not because I was planning to become a novelist someday. I honestly didn't know such a thing was possible. There were no such role models around me. The only thing I knew was, it started from a place of loneliness. I was an only child raised by a single working mom. And at the time in Turkey, that was quite unusual. And partly I was also raised by a traditional grandmother. And primarily, I thought life was very boring, you know, and And it was Storyland that was much more interesting for me, much, much more colorful. Every time I was able to go there, um, I felt rejuvenated. It connected me to life in a different way and it showed me that there were different ways of existence. So I, I have a lot of respect for the autobiographical. side of literature, but that's not how I began. You know, I thought there was nothing interesting about my life that I wanted to write about. And I have a lot of respect for authors who write in a much more autobiographical way. But for me, it was a transcendental side of literature that was far more interesting. What I mean by that is I didn't want to be myself. I wanted to be someone else and then look at the world through their eyes and then someone else. I think in literature. and through literature, we can dismantle this duality of me and the other. And then you realize actually the other is my brother, the other is my sister, I am the other, right? You can go beyond those dualities of us versus them. That side of Um, literature is very close to my heart, so it, it can re humanize people who have been dehumanized. It can bring the margins to the center and make the invisible a bit more visible. And it can focus on silences and the silenced, not only on stories and storytelling. That combination is something that's very close to my heart.

Jason Blitman: 24:05

And not only people. I feel, I, I feel like so much of this book and what I know of your other books. I mean, I have to say these have been sitting on my shelf for so long and I have not, When you start a book podcast, you get inundated with books and you, and the books that have been on your shelf, you can not, you don't have the time to read. Um, but I have, I do think it's a good thing that I didn't have a chance to read them yet because I'd be too overwhelmed. But my understanding is that a lot of what you do is take activism and put it in the form of literature. this book alone I feel like, it's a character study. The characters in the book are beautiful and you care deeply about them. But really at its core, it's, it's about water. It's about climate change. It's about conservation. It's about, um, you know, the, the memory of the world, just as much as the memory of, of these people and the memory of water. Um, can you talk about why How do I want to ask this question? I think it's just a matter of like, I understand why activism through literature is important to you. Um, can you share a little bit about what you were hoping to share about water, about the climate in a book like There Are Rivers in the Sky?

Elif Shafak: 25:29

Yeah, I deeply appreciate this question. I don't know though whether I would call it activism only because of, you know, I have a lot of respect for activists who, who dedicate so much of their time and energy for important causes. The only thing I would call myself is a storyteller, you know, is a writer. Maybe, maybe I would refrain from adjectives. But I do hear, I do hear, um, the core of your question. I, I appreciate it. Doris Lessing has this beautiful essay in which she, she says that literature is analysis after the event, and writers need time to pass. You know, in retrospect, we write, we need to digest, we need to process, and then we look back, and we, that's how we write. And I understand that, and I respect that. But I think we have entered a moment in history in which literature has to become not only analysis, After the event, but also analysis during the event, while things are happening, and that's not easy. But this is how we respond to this moment in time when we have, you know, our planet, our only home is burning when we have widening inequalities when we have, you know, so much to talk about how do writers and artists respond to this moment in time is an important question for me. However, if I may add this quickly, because this is a very important distinction for me, I think a novelist's job is to ask questions, not to try to dictate the answers. So, I don't know the answers myself. You know, I am learning. I am on this journey. But I do know that I care about the questions, including difficult questions, including silences and taboos. So there's a part of me that wants to open up a space where we can hold multiple opinions, a diversity of voices. And that's one of the many reasons why I love the novel so much, because it allows us to be multiple. And this is a freedom that we are denied in our daily lives because we're constantly reduced to a single thread. A single box. But inside literature, I can be plural. I can be multiple. Like Walt Whitman said, I have multitudes. I can remember that. So, I like that multiplicity. And then, you have to leave the answers to the reader. Because every reader is gonna come up with their own answers. I have met couples who have been married for 45 years. They read the same book. They don't read it in the same way. Right? Because every reader brings their own gaze into the story. So, all I'm trying to say is I'm Maybe I'm, I'm a writer who, who, who, who likes to think about the important questions of our time, but not necessarily, I don't like it when writers try to lecture or preach or try to teach because we don't know the answers ourselves. But we're all on a path of, of, of learning. Um, so coming back to climate crisis, it is one, it is such a crucial existential question for all of us. And I think we cannot be, in this age, single issue people. We need to make the connections. If you care about climate crisis, it means we care about freshwater crisis. All around the world, women are usually water carriers. You know, when there's no water, the amount, the distance that a woman has to walk increases, unfortunately, increasing the chance of gender violence on the way or on the way back. So we might think that water crisis and gender violence are completely different things, They're not. They're connected. If we care about gender inequality, we have to care about racial inequality. We have to care about regional inequality. We have to care about LGBTQ plus rights. And so on. So, let's connect the dots. And I think for this, art and literature also is very important. It helps us to see the connections.

Jason Blitman: 29:22

Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. I mean, this is not dissimilar, obviously, to our conversation about religion, because it is, to what you were saying about up to the reader to interpret things, I, I read it and was compelled to a call to action. You, you, to be, to be clear, it was not, I didn't feel like I was getting dictated to, but I was compelled for a call to action, which I think is why I interpreted it as activism because you did make me, make me think about something in a different way. And so while, um, I respect that you don't want to call yourself an activist because of the people who are doing capital A work. Um, the pluralism that authors, can engage in is almost endless based on a reader's perspective.

Elif Shafak: 30:16

hmm. Indeed. Indeed. But what you said, um, is so, so important for me, and I'm really grateful because you told me how the book made you feel, right? This is so important. I think we're living in an age in which emotions are so important, and they shape politics more than we realize. And, uh, It's okay, you know, from time to time we feel angry, we feel frustrated, we feel fatigue, but if there's one emotion that really scares me, it's the lack of all emotions, and that's numbness. The moment we become indifferent, you know, the moment I say, well, what's happening in Afghanistan to women and girls is, you know, is their problem, because it's so far away. The moment I don't want to talk about Gaza, the moment I don't want to talk about Ukraine, the moment I don't want to even talk about what's happening maybe in my, you know, next door, um, garden. That kind of indifference, when we become desensitized, indifferent to each other's stories, I think that's a very, you know, dangerous threshold for humanity. So I believe we're living in the age of angst, existential anxiety, but if it evolves and if it's,

Jason Blitman: 31:28

think?

Elif Shafak: 31:29

yeah, but if, but if it drops into an age of apathy, that would be a much more difficult world for all of us to navigate. So, you know, It's a good thing that we feel, we connect when we read a story, we feel the need to do something about it. I think those are very, very good emotions because it takes us out of that apathy and numbness into a place of empathy and connectivity.

Jason Blitman: 31:52

and it's such a, uh, fresh and pleasant reminder for me too, because when I think about my work in theater and I think about what about it was important to me, it was about the, the communal connection. It was about storytelling to engage in empathy and sharing other perspectives and experiences. Right. And, and I also would not call myself an activist, but you can. share something with someone that can make them think about things in a new and different way, give them a perspective about things that are new and different. The book tracks a handful of terrific characters. One of them is a boy named Arthur and he at some point in the book says, uh, Ever since I saw the winged sculptures as a boy, I felt destined to go to, is it Nineveh? Nineveh?

Elif Shafak: 32:47

I call it Nineveh. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:49

Nineveh.

Elif Shafak: 32:50

Nineveh. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:51

it's such a beautiful idea to be inspired by something that, that really pulls you along your whole journey. was there something that you experienced that made you feel destined to do, whether it's, What you're doing now or something else in particular, that, that one, one thing really propelled you forward always. Yeah.

Elif Shafak: 33:17

that call. I call it passion. It is, it is irrational, isn't it? Because you know what makes us dedicate our lives to words, to stories. When you start a novel, when you start a book, you don't really know whether you're doing what you're writing would make any sense to anyone. Um, but there's something that keeps you going, maybe a secular faith, maybe a type of passion. But I'm very interested in that, you know, what takes us out of our small cocoons and, and takes us on adventures, sometimes intellectual adventures, sometimes physical or emotional adventures. That is something that really, intrigues me. And so when I look at Arthur in the book, he's called King Arthur of the Sewers and Slums. This boy who was born in, in the slum tenements, uh, very poor, um, you know, upbringing, no proper education, allowed to have a proper education. And yet, um, he falls in love with, with a poem. And I think, um, When I wrote Arthur, of course he's a fictional character, but he's loosely based on an actual historical person called George Smith. And I think the actual George Smith, if he were alive today, we would understand and respect his mind, and we would recognize that he was somewhere along the autism spectrum. He had such an interesting memory, such an interesting way of piecing together broken shards of cuneiform tablets. And so he falls in love with the, with a poem, the Epic of Gilgamesh. And in order to find the missing lines in a poem, he comes to the Middle East twice and he loses his life there. And today the actual George Smith is buried between Syria and Turkey, and not many people know about him. So a part of him wanted to honor this person, um, and, and the passion of, of archaeologists and artists and scholars. But at the same time, I also wanted to criticize, uh, colonial history, institutional colonialism. We can do those things at the same time, you know, simultaneously.

Jason Blitman: 35:28

and I, I will say to that, The book, um, asks you to be patient with it, I think, so that you can really experience that duality. But in terms of your, on a, on a macro level, it sounds like from earlier in our conversation that it was almost loneliness that, that continued to propel you to tell stories.

Elif Shafak: 35:53

That is true. That is true. And I think, um, partly my, you know, when I look back, I realize there's there are a few other things that shaped me when I look at my own upbringing. One is maybe a nomadic existence. I was born in France, but shortly afterwards, my parents got separated and my father stayed in France and my mom brought me to Turkey. Because for her, it was motherland. For me, it was a new country. Um, and thereafter, I was raised by these two women, my mother and my grandmother, who have very different personalities. And I think from my mother, I got my love for written culture. But from my grandmother, my love for oral culture and oral storytelling. And to the best of my ability, I would love my work. To bridge these two worlds. Sometimes oral cultures look down upon because it's not regarded as intellectual enough, but I think there's so much ancient wisdom there. Uh, and behind all those superstitions, what is the fear? What's the source of fear that we can do a lot of reading? And interestingly, sometimes oral culture remembers. the things that written culture has conveniently forgotten. So again, if you're interested in the stories of women, minorities, we have to pay attention to oral culture. Um, and these things to shape my, my literature.

Jason Blitman: 37:16

Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you say that because I feel like music people are so surprised when they remember lyrics to a song. It's because that is an element of oral culture and stories being passed down.

Elif Shafak: 37:29

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 37:30

I worked at a cheeseburger restaurant when I was 17 years old, and I could still tell you all of the cheeses that were on the menu because it's this oral, it's, it's repetitive. It is something that you share with other people as sort of trite as that might be. But. American blue cheddar mozzarella provolone jalapeno and Swiss. It will never leave me because, but if it was, if I only wrote it down, I don't know that I would remember it in the

Elif Shafak: 37:57

definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:00

Yeah. The amount of songs that will just pop into my head and how I remember the lyrics. I will never know, but it's, it's all of that. It's, it's that history and the memory. It all goes back to how we remember things and why we remember things. Um, thank you for sharing all of that. That,

Elif Shafak: 38:16

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 38:17

it's very special.

Elif Shafak: 38:18

thank you.

Jason Blitman: 38:19

There are a few lines in the book that moved me very deeply I felt very seen as a queer person and I would like to just share a couple of them with you and then talk about them, but one, is simply I know what it's like to be misunderstood and treated unjustly. Another is being an outsider is all about survival and no one survives by being unambitious. No one gets ahead by holding back. Immigrants don't die of existential fatigue or nihilistic boredom. They die from working too hard. And I, and I, you know, I'm, I'm not an immigrant, but certainly my ancestors were. But as a queer person, I have absolutely felt the need to work harder, to overcome certain experiences. and I know you, I guess not so recently anymore, but somewhat recently came out as bisexual, which Incredible. We love you. Welcome to the community. Um, or I should say came out publicly. Um, thank you. Thank you for sharing that piece with those of us who need it back to me saying you, you do a lot of sharing and encourage and inspire other people to do so too. Has that been your experience as well? The I mean, obviously as an immigrant, but After coming out, the, the idea of essentially overcompensating, you came out after a time when you've won awards and been acclaimed and been beloved. and did you feel like you sort of needed to recapture that love again? I'm

Elif Shafak: 40:03

of queer communities. because we start from a point of, uh, not the center, but the margins, the periphery, you know, in one of my earlier books, um, it's called 10 minutes, 38 seconds in the strange world. Uh, I talked about two types of families. that we have. When is our, the families that we're born into, we are raised in. And if those families are loving and kind, we should count our blessings. That's a wonderful thing. But not every person has that kind of experience, especially in the queer community. And so we need to also focus on our water families. What I mean by water family is, um, Is the friendships that we build and I think the number of those friends cannot be dozens and dozens, maybe five, maybe six or seven. But these are the people who are the witnesses of our journeys. When we fall down, they pull us up and we are also their witnesses. So that kind of water family solidarity, sisterhood, bond, that's incredibly important, I think, for anyone who has been through this. come from the margins. So, that's something I, I, I relate to. You know, I've done a lot of digging into my own soul and I think part of it is my own childhood because I grew up without seeing my father. and throughout my entire life, I've only seen him very few times. What I found very hard was, When I learned that he had been a very good father to his other two children, my, my half brothers, they love him, they, they, they adored him. And they were telling the truth when they said, Oh, he has been a very good father to us. And I was telling the truth too, when I was saying, but he hasn't been a good father to me. So I think I've always felt a bit like the other child, the forgotten child. from that perspective. Maybe this also shaped me. Being bisexual and not being able to talk about this, publicly, shaped me in other ways. Even though it's very visible in my work, and throughout all my adult life I have spoken publicly about LGBTQ plus rights, I never had the courage. Until a few years back. I don't know if it's if courage is the right word, but I couldn't say this is also my story Because I was so worried about the backlash and the hate speech Um and all the slander and attacks and vitriol that I would get from My motherland turkey, which is exactly what happened when I came out, but I was ready for that Yeah, I was ready for that, but I wish I could have done it before. At the same time, I know that there is a moment, there's the right time, um, for everyone in their own journey, and sometimes people don't have to. I also respect that, but, um, I think when we share our stories, we realize that we are not alone, and that is so, so important. and Jason, if I may add this, I think in this moment in time, we need to hear each other's voices and stories all the more, you know, even more than before. Maybe, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, there was so much optimism in the world, late 1990s, early 2000s. And many people in both academia and media thought that Some parts of the world were solid, safe, you know, you would never have to worry about the future of women's rights or minority rights in these countries, namely, they were thinking about the Western world, and some other countries that were regarded as liquid countries. People thought, well, you have to worry about human rights or democracy in those liquid lands over there. But I think fast forward, we know that there's no such thing as solid lands versus liquid lands. We've all entered liquid times. And we all need to worry, I think, about the future of LGBTQ rights, future of democracy, freedom of speech and women's rights, um, whether we're in the West or in the, in the East.

Jason Blitman: 44:01

Right. It is a human issue.

Elif Shafak: 44:04

Yeah. Yeah, also because countries can go backwards. Also because democracy is much more fragile than we assumed. So we can't say, this has been achieved. And, you know, it's not something you can put in your pocket and take for granted. We need, we need to care about each other's well being constantly.

Jason Blitman: 44:24

And to think about that exact idea on a much smaller scale, it's, we are all still learning. We're all still processing, right? We are, we are students of the world, you know? And so for anyone who says, Oh, I'm done learning. It's a shame because we're, we're, we've not, we've, there's no way to, to finish that. And I think to your point, it's similar to me about. democracy, right? There's, there's no, things, things are not ended. Nothing is written in sharpie here,

Elif Shafak: 44:54

that is so true. That's so true.

Jason Blitman: 44:56

unfortunately. Something that comes up in the prologue is, talks about growing up means learning to repress all expressions of pure happiness and joy. And that made me very sad. And Obviously, I think it was supposed to make me very sad, but, uh, I hope that you no longer believe that to be true.

Elif Shafak: 45:18

This is something I observe a lot. Um, of course, as artists, we do express our emotions and, you know, feelings more openly. Empathy is a muscle. The more we work on it, the stronger it becomes. Um, and, and writing a book, um, staging a play, it's, it's also like putting your heart out there. So there is a vulnerability there, but there's also strength, there's also resilience. And I've always thought that actually those people who repress their emotions a lot, uh, we call them strong men, for instance, we, we use that expression. Those to me are actually, um, seem to be very insecure. Underneath, you know, underneath that veneer, that shiny surface, there's a lot of insecurity. So we need to stop associating emotions with weakness. That's something I wholeheartedly believe in. But if I may share this perhaps quickly, um, I used to go to schools in Turkey, across the Middle East, to give talks. And if you speak to a six year old, seven year old Turkish child or Egyptian, Jordanian child, they're no different whatsoever than a Norwegian or Canadian or American child. At that age, children have so much chutzpah, so much courage and creativity. And if you ask a room full of kids, if there are, are there any artists here? So many hands go up. Are there writers here? Hands go up. Poets, again, they are already writers and poets and artists. But then I would go to speak to older students, like 16 year old, 15, 17 year old, and I cannot tell you how much things would have changed. Now, if you ask a room full of students, are there any artists here? No, hands go up. And also, interestingly, girls have become timid. Why? Because we teach them. We say, you'll be judged, you know, watch out how you're speaking, how you dress up, how you even laugh, the tone of your voice. So, little by little, we kill the creativity that we originally had as children. In the family, at school, we do this. I think being an artist is also reconnecting with that inner self. Space in a garden that we already had as Children and learning to nourish that inner garden.

Jason Blitman: 47:32

I, for a very long time, have, have been trying to figure out a way to remind adults Or young adults, or teenagers who might think they're adults. That, that child who raised their hand is still in them.

Elif Shafak: 47:50

Sure. A hundred percent, yes. But they need to go back and reconnect and take good care

Jason Blitman: 47:56

the memory.

Elif Shafak: 47:57

To their memory, indeed.

Jason Blitman: 47:59

Yeah. Right, exactly. It's, it's fostering that child that does still live within us, who raised their hand and said they are a storyteller, who said they are an artist, who said they are a writer. Okay, we cannot end on a note like that. What is bringing you joy these days?

Elif Shafak: 48:15

Welcome. This conversation is bringing me so much joy,

Jason Blitman: 48:19

Oh, good.

Elif Shafak: 48:20

and I am very thankful for this. You know, literary festivals, libraries, literary spaces, but also connections beyond borders. We need this. Uh, these give me always more optimism and, and, and hope.

Jason Blitman: 48:37

So you're not watching reality TV?

Elif Shafak: 48:39

I do. Um,

Jason Blitman: 48:44

give you reality and hope for the world.

Elif Shafak: 48:47

well, I, I do. I mean, maybe not, not too much TV, but I'm a very audio person and I, and I listen to all kinds of radio channels, um, across the political spectrum. I listen to very different types of podcasts and yeah, just, just keep learning those, those things. Interdisciplinary conversations. And I think we need to leave our, our own echo chambers. We need to venture beyond. Uh, and, and see, try to understand the emotions that are running high in our society at this moment in time. We storytellers have to be bridge builders. I find that very important.

Jason Blitman: 49:25

yeah, I love that. What a beautiful way for us to end our conversation. Let's go build our bridges. And then we can paint them beautiful colors, too.

Elif Shafak: 49:36

We have to do that. The brightest colors

Jason Blitman: 49:40

Yes, yes, that will make the people want to go and cross them and engage with them and play on them and have fun and, you know, because that is so much of what life is really about.

Elif Shafak: 49:49

And be proud of our colors. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 49:52

yes, exactly. Um, there are rivers in the sky. It is a beautiful book that is, as I said, meant to savor. Congratulations. So excited for you. Thank you so much for being here

Elif Shafak: 50:05

Thank you so much for being here and for this very, very inspiring conversation. I know it will stay with me. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 50:12

and it will stay with me too. Hello! Um, you are the only guest gay reader who I will

Franklin Cappadora: 50:25

Needs no

Jason Blitman: 50:26

who I will stop the recording for to, uh, make themselves look a little bit more presentable.

Franklin Cappadora: 50:32

It's your show.

Jason Blitman: 50:33

I am so excited and honored and thrilled that, uh, my very first, my inaugural gay reader is someone who, uh, gays reading listeners know from anecdotes from previous episodes, the, uh, creamy peanut butter to my crunchy peanut butter, my very own wonderful husband, Franklin Capodora. Hi, Franklin. Welcome to gays reading.

Franklin Cappadora: 51:07

Hi Jason, thanks for having me. Long time listener, first time caller.

Jason Blitman: 51:13

I know, this is so weird.

Franklin Cappadora: 51:16

It's a little weird, but it's going to be fun. It's going to be great. I

Jason Blitman: 51:20

It's just weird because, you know, we're in the same apartment but in different parts of it.

Franklin Cappadora: 51:24

I can kind of hear you over my right shoulder.

Jason Blitman: 51:29

So when I decided to add a guest gay reader component to the show, you were the very first person that I wanted to talk to. So, most in particularly because I had an insight to what you were actually reading at the time, so it was perfect. But I don't know that that's true anymore. So tell me, Franklin, what are you reading?

Franklin Cappadora: 51:54

Well, first things first, I am so honored to be your first gay reader. When you originally asked me to do this, the first thing I had to go run out and do was learn how to read really quickly. Uh, so, here we are right on time. So I came prepared. Uh, I'm mid book, according to Olivia, I'm 40 something percent. Uh, through, uh, Just Kids, which is the Patti Smith memoir, where she recounts her decades long friendship with Robert Mapplethorpe. Uh, and it is excellent. Um, of course, I'm a procrastinator and the book is due back in the library in about one and a half days. So I am power listening to it, uh, but I highly recommend it so far. It's really very interesting.

Jason Blitman: 52:36

I'm sure a lot of our listeners are very familiar with the concept of book about to be due, must read immediately. so when I asked you to do this, you were, you had just finished the second book in the Tales of the City series by Armistead Maupin, and you were about to start Less is Lost, the sequel to the book Less, which both very queer, very gay, perfect for a guest gay reader,

Franklin Cappadora: 53:04

well, we can still talk about them. I still have, I still recall them. And I recommend both of them incidentally. But Robert Mapplethorpe, that's pretty gay. You know, it's quite gay.

Jason Blitman: 53:17

Sure, but not like canon in the way that the others are.

Franklin Cappadora: 53:21

Maybe not.

Jason Blitman: 53:22

Something I wanted to talk to you about that I have not prepped you on is, in this episode, in my conversation with Elif, the author of There Are Rivers in the Sky, we talk about, uh, the dance between faith and doubt. And I'm

Franklin Cappadora: 53:39

Faith and doubt. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 53:42

I'm curious if that means anything to you.

Franklin Cappadora: 53:44

faith and doubt. Well, as Jason, you know, and your readers or listeners may not know, I am first and foremost a scientist. My background is in chemistry, and I approach most things in life through that lens. Um, so the word faith, I think is kind of an interesting one for me, um, doubt, I am absolutely familiar with, you know, we talk about being, um, you know, skeptical all the time in science where you need to be a skeptic and you need to really being a skeptic without being cynical, right? Um, you need to really scrutinize things and, and double check things. And I think doubt is a really important motivator for the scientific process, right? Like, how do we know what's happening here? Are we sure we understand what's happening here? How can we further prove that something is happening here, right? And you sort of take your research on faith to some degree, but your, the whole scientific process is sort of designed to, to eliminate the requirement of faith, uh, and have it be sort of verifiable and repeatable, uh, and then you vanquished out that way. So I don't know. It's kind of a long. rant

Jason Blitman: 54:56

Yeah, no, no, no. I

Franklin Cappadora: 54:57

hopefully that made

Jason Blitman: 54:58

it's sort of like, it's philosophical and not at the same time. And something else that we talk about is information versus knowledge versus wisdom,

Franklin Cappadora: 55:09

Information versus knowledge versus wisdom. Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 55:13

sort of goes along with what you were just talking about, right?

Franklin Cappadora: 55:16

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 55:17

there's a difference between knowing something and, sort of just like a fact. And then imparting wisdom, right? Like, what are the intricacies of each of those topics?

Franklin Cappadora: 55:28

Yeah. When I think about wisdom, I almost feel like it, it doesn't require a ton of information. You know, the sort of, the idea of conventional wisdom being that this is something we all just sort of know in our guts. you know, you don't take, candy from a stranger, like that kind of thing where

Jason Blitman: 55:45

You don't? Awkward.

Franklin Cappadora: 55:49

could, it's just not wise to do so. Candy from strangers. That actually came from a public service campaign. I just learned this in the thirties because, um, Cheap candy had been coated with, uh, lead based paint and it was leading to all kinds of lead poisoning. So there was a public service to say don't take candy from strangers because you can't verify, uh, the, the type of paint that it's been coated with, apparently. So maybe wisdom is backed by information. It just is a longer arc to make its way into wisdom.

Jason Blitman: 56:21

and it's funny, because what you're describing, it's, It was information disseminated based on knowledge.

Franklin Cappadora: 56:32

hmm.

Jason Blitman: 56:33

That then

Franklin Cappadora: 56:35

Eventually became

Jason Blitman: 56:38

Yeah.

Franklin Cappadora: 56:39

wisdom in this beyond this lead paint specific detail.

Jason Blitman: 56:43

Right, what a good long term idea. Mm

Franklin Cappadora: 56:46

as you grew up in the nineties, as I did, uh, I always assumed it was about the whole like razor blade and the Apple on Halloween situation. Right. Um, so, you know, that saying, I think, perpetuated through time, through generations, because of its wisdom, interestingly enough,

Jason Blitman: 57:03

Thank you for sharing that information.

Franklin Cappadora: 57:06

you're welcome.

Jason Blitman: 57:07

feel more knowledgeable now.

Franklin Cappadora: 57:09

If I had said it pithier, it would have made its way into the sort of wisdom dictionary, but oh well.

Jason Blitman: 57:15

Oh, well. Um, uh, Okay, so I have

Franklin Cappadora: 57:20

Welcome to our living room conversations, by the way. America, this is our home,

Jason Blitman: 57:25

was, I was just gonna say what's hilarious is That is the conversation we would have had whether we were recording or not. Um,

Franklin Cappadora: 57:35

It's true.

Jason Blitman: 57:37

Uh, okay. My other guest gay reader question is what is your quick read? What, what are you, what are you reading? What are you roasting? What is a grievance? What are you complaining about?

Franklin Cappadora: 57:55

Looking for a hot take?

Jason Blitman: 57:56

what's your hot take?

Franklin Cappadora: 57:58

Hmm. All right, America, you heard it here. AI is overblown. I am so over This is my hot take.

Jason Blitman: 58:06

I don't know that you're alone in that.

Franklin Cappadora: 58:08

I hope not. I certainly hope not. Yes, I totally agree. It's going to completely change everything over time. And like, everything will be AI something or other. But as a person who has very little to contribute to that whole morphology, I don't care. Tell me when it's done. Tell me when things have changed and are better. I do not want to be your beta tester. I do not want half baked crap answers from chatGBT when my brain is perfectly capable of generating good ideas on its own. Uh, so I'm willing to kind of just hang out in the background and wait for AI to actually get good and useful and then when it's ready, I will consume. That's my optic.

Jason Blitman: 58:47

last week I was interviewing author T. J. Newman at an event and an audience member asked the question her, do you think A. I. s, you know, are you worried about A. I. in general? And she sort of was like, no, because there are things that humans capable of doing that computers will never be capable of doing and a lot of that is involves, emotions. I mean, interestingly enough, it sort of takes us back to information versus knowledge versus wisdom, right? Like, can AI ever actually impart wisdom? information? You know what I

Franklin Cappadora: 59:26

Whereas, is the wisdom in this sort of beholder side of the experience, maybe, right? I mean, AI, I think, everyone's used it at this point for idea generation. Like, this is, uh, definitely where it's shined the brightest, in my opinion, where it's like, give me 100 ideas, none of them are good, but maybe one or two are a nugget that you can work with to actually workshop into something better. So, you could say, hey, AI, um, tell me a joke or say something funny, right? But I do think it's an incredibly human thing to, to determine sense of humor, right? To determine a level of humor. So maybe that's kind of what TJ was talking about, right? Yeah. Where it's like, is it funny? You know, I don't know. Like you have to scrutinize that. And I think it's a very long way before a computer understands that. And frankly, by the time a computer learns it, I think our definition of what is funny will have evolved. Um, look at, look at humor from an old joke book a hundred years ago. Uh, I don't know that that's going to get the same laugh that it does today. Like, humor is an ever evolving thing. It's very ephemeral.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:34

But I will always find you funny.

Franklin Cappadora: 1:00:36

Oh, thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:37

Funny looking!

Franklin Cappadora: 1:00:39

How dare you? Yeah, where'd you get that? A joke book from the 1920s?

Jason Blitman: 1:00:44

Um, thank you for being here. I, I couldn't have asked for, a better inaugural guest gay reader. And you know I have exciting people coming up, but I was most excited to talk to you.

Franklin Cappadora: 1:00:57

Well, I am honored. It's been a total pleasure. I look forward to continuing this conversation from our living room later today.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:03

too. I love you.

Franklin Cappadora: 1:01:05

I love you very much. Congratulations

Jason Blitman: 1:01:07

Thank you. Thank you Elif. Thank you, Franklin. Both incredible guests to have in this very first episode of this new season. I'm so grateful to both of you and to everyone listening. Thanks again for checking us out. Like subscribe wherever you get. Your podcasts books are available@thebookshop.org page. Follow us on social media.@gaysreading. And there will be so much more to come and I can't wait to share it with you. Have a great rest of your day. Thanks

1:01:33

everyone.