0:04

Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poetry stars to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Um, uh, Hello? Hello and welcome to Gays Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman welcome back to those who have been here before. And to those who are new to gaze reading, where have you been. Just getting happy to have you here. Thank you for joining us. and if you don't know, we are also on YouTube, you can watch the videos of this conversation and some other great conversations that I've had with fantastic authors over at our YouTube channel. You could find that link in the show notes and also to link tree in the Instagram page. And if you can like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it is so incredibly helpful for the algorithm and to help other folks find gaze reading. While you're at it. If you want to leave us a five-star review, it is super greatly appreciated. While I'm doing the rest of this intro. You could just scootch on over. To apple podcasts or wherever you're listening and just tap the five stars. it's so, so helpful. And thank you in advance and thank you to those who have already written a review and given us five stars. and follow us on social media. We're@gaysreading on Instagram. We have a new giveaway every single Thursday. So make sure to check that out. Over on Instagram. This has been my month of TJs earlier this month, I interviewed TJ Newman for her new book, worst case scenario, which is so fun. that was an in-person event that you can't find anywhere online, but it was such a great conversation. She's so awesome. And her new book, worst case scenario, it's like a summer blockbuster. It's so delicious. I devoured it sitting by the pool in two days. Check it out. On today's episode, we have the fantastic TJ Klune. If you are unfamiliar with his work, his bio is in the show notes. He's here to talk about the sequel to the house in this cerulean sea, somewhere beyond the sea. And I realized that we sort of talk about housing that's cerulean sea without really saying what it's about. So here's the logline. If you're unfamiliar the house in this cerulean sea is an enchanting love story about the profound experience of discovering an unlikely family. In an unexpected place and realizing that family is yours. And so somewhere beyond the seat is a SQL to that. And that's what he's here to talk to us about. Uh, every book that we talk about, including both of TJ, his books, including TJ Newman's, but could be found in the bookshop.org page. The link to that is in the show notes and today's guest gay reader. Is the. Adorable. Very handsome, very charming James Scully, who is currently starring in the hit play on Broadway. Oh, Mary. Uh, he is coming to me from his bathtub because his super was in his apartment fixing his air conditioning. So he will not be appearing on YouTube. You cannot see his adorable face. and you know, whether or not he was clothed in his bath job, but we'll be up to your imagination. I am also, so, so, so excited to share that I am partnering with aardvark book club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. To new members in the United States, you could join today. Enter the code GAYSREADING at checkout and get your first book for$4 and free shipping. is such a huge savings. And there are already a whole bunch of authors, a whole bunch of books that have been on Gays Reading that aardvark. has in their collection and if you're unfamiliar, it's a monthly book, subscription shipping to the us and Canada. On the first of every month, they drop between five and six books that are new releases. They're across genres, literary fiction, fantasy romance, they're curated from buzzy new releases. And under the radar jams and everything in between. And if you don't follow them on social media, their social media is killer. Aardvark book club on Instagram. And again, go to their website, aardvark book, club.com. Get your first box for$4 with the code Gays Reading. And now please welcome to Gays Reading T J Klune

Jason Blitman: 4:44

I typically sport scruff and a mustache, but you're very anti mustache in this book, and so I,

TJ Klune: 4:56

You can do whatever you want,

Jason Blitman: 4:58

I didn't, I didn't want to be offensive.

TJ Klune: 5:02

That's fun.

Jason Blitman: 5:03

is that a sore subject?

TJ Klune: 5:05

not at all, not at all. That was, that was, that was just something that, that I grew up with. My, my father, when I was a kid had a very huge mustache. I was very prickly and bristly and this is one of those things that comes up.

Jason Blitman: 5:17

So, trauma.

TJ Klune: 5:18

Exactly. Exactly. Trauma. A queer kid with trauma. No way!

Jason Blitman: 5:24

shocking. A couple of weeks ago, when I posted an Instagram story that I was reading the first book, House in the Cerulean Sea, I got more responses from non bookish people than I've ever in my life posting about books. People were coming out of the woodwork to tell me how much they loved the book. How special it is to them, how they can't wait for me to read it. And that must feel warm and fuzzy inside for you.

TJ Klune: 5:55

it does to to to an extent. And the reason I say that is because I think a lot about how people found the first book. They found it at a time during the pandemic because it came out March 17, 2020, the week the pandemic exploded in the United States. And so, you know, I, I am going into writing a sequel. I, I was very much aware that I cannot. The element of surprise is gone. I cannot recreate the moments that people had when they found the first book because a lot of people found that book in a time when everything was scary and up in the air, nobody could leave their homes. And I can't recreate that feeling, nor do I want to. But I will say that the the level of fandom that have surrounded these books has been, has been extraordinary. It's, it's absolutely extraordinary. And, you know, I, I love the weight of expectation because I know that I'm going to blow everyone out of the water.

Jason Blitman: 6:55

Yeah. And I didn't post that I was

TJ Klune: 6:58

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:58

because I didn't want to make, I didn't want to

TJ Klune: 7:01

Cause you would, you would, you would, you would lose, you would have some people losing their minds because these were. Very minimal. There weren't a whole lot of these. And then the, the actual digital arc, the actual digital arc, was only the first four chapters. Yeah, yeah, because I'm trying to keep this, book as much secret as I can.

Jason Blitman: 7:19

One of the responses to the initial story, was someone sharing their love of Chauncey. And so I did let her know, I said, heads up, if you love Chauncey in book one, not only will you love, oh man.

TJ Klune: 7:37

these are the, these are the Chauncey, plushies that are going to be sold in Barnes and Nobles across the country. They start when the book comes out.

Jason Blitman: 7:48

Oh, my God. I want, I want them all. But I said to her, if you love Chauncey in book one, you're gonna become even more obsessed with him in book two. And just you wait until you meet David.

TJ Klune: 7:59

so Chauncey is my favorite character in, in these books. He's my favorite character that I've written. And he's kind of the reason the sequel exists because, um, I tend to hear voices in my head of characters talking to me. And when I finish with a book, those voices tend to go back to sleep or go away wherever they went to. Chauncey, Chauncey doesn't shut up. Chauncey keeps on talking. Chauncey is very demanding. And so I, I kind of figured there might be more, but yes, Chauncey is, you know, when the book came out, I honestly expected to everybody to glom onto Lucy, which fair, Lucy is a very cool character, but the level of Chauncey love man has blown me away because Chauncey is, just, he's a bundle of joy and I, I think that that's, that's wonderful to be able to see. And then we have David. Yes, David the Yeti, David. the yet. Who is,

Jason Blitman: 8:51

I really fell in love

TJ Klune: 8:52

yeah, who is based, he, he is based upon one of my favorite characters of all time, and that's Bill Watterson's Calvin and Hobbes. If you know Calvin, if you've read those books, those comic strips as a kid, you will know that Calvin has a, a very active imagination, and he plays different characters, and one of the characters he plays in his head, is a noir detective called Tracer Bullitt, and so I wanted to bring that in, that kind of energy into the book, so when Arthur and Linus meet David for the first time, he puts on a performance for them, and that, that directly pulls from Bill Watterson and Calvin and Hobbes, because I adore, I adore that boy, and I adore David, and how he, how he makes his home with all the rest of the kids.

Jason Blitman: 9:39

yeah. So we've gotten a tiny bit ahead of ourselves. For our listeners who let's say, unfamiliar with the world, but let's, for the most part, assume lots of folks have read Cerulean Sea, what is an elevator pitch for Somewhere Beyond the Sea?

TJ Klune: 9:54

Somewhere beyond the sea is what happens after the happy ending. What happens when the world tells you, keeps telling you no. And what do you do then? What steps do you take to ensure that your world and the world of your family and your children, your friends are on a path that can make you happy? That can be sustainable for everyone. And then what happens when you still get told no. So what do you do? You go out and make your own world. And that's what this book has been about. The reason that this book exists, the reason that the sequel exists at all, and it's something very important for me to talk about as a cis white gay man, is that The reason this book exists is because of the anti trans movement that has perpetuated across the United States. Uh, for those not aware, in 2021 and 2022, the government of the United States held hearings where parents and guardians of trans youth, transgender people, and gender affirming medical professionals were invited to testify in front of the government. But what they did not know was that it was essentially an ambush because the politicians. fell into two camps. They either said, we see you, we hear you, and then they turned around and voted against pro trans legislation. Or the worst ones, the politicians who sat there with their smarmy condescension and questioned trans people on their bodies, on their minds, on their rights to exist. They accused parents and guardians of transing their children. They, they doubted the, the medical backing of the gender affirming medical professionals that testified. that really absolutely bugged the hell out of me, especially with the advent of all this anti trans nonsense that's permeating through the United States and through the UK. And so I remembered at the very end of the House in the Cerulean Sea, it was hinted at that Arthur was invited to testify in front of the government. And I thought, what would happen If that was the same kind of ambush, what would happen if you are invited to a place to speak your truth, and only to come to find out that that's not what is in the plans at all. I got to speak with some of those people who were involved in testifying. I got to speak to a few of them and I asked them all different questions, but one question was the same all the way through. Knowing what you know now, would you do this all over again knowing what the blowback is gonna be? Every single person I spoke to said unequivocally, yes. And the reason being is they got to speak their truths. It is important for me to, to speak about that because unfortunately some of the biggest transphobes in the world are cis white gay men so it is important for me that we, that we remember that it is LGBTQ. It's not LGB without the T, without the Q. That is not how it is. Trans people have always been here. They will always be here. And it's important for me that I stick up for my community. If I use my platform to just tell stories, then what am I even doing? I have, I have a duty and an obligation to, to speak up for my community.

Jason Blitman: 12:56

And the book, I mean, is very subtle.

TJ Klune: 13:03

As a sledgehammer, yes. And the reason being is that some people, some people need to have that message beaten into their heads.

Jason Blitman: 13:12

100%. Something that I was. really thinking about a lot throughout reading both books is, and this is, you might take this as a lofty statement because you wrote them, but I didn't, so I'm allowed to say it. I, I sort of feel like this could be, this being both House in the Cerulean Sea and Beyond the Sea, could be doing for readers today what Animal Farm did for readers in 1945.

TJ Klune: 13:38

Wow. That is a lofty statement. Holy crap. And I appreciate that.

Jason Blitman: 13:42

I did warn you and I said you couldn't be the one to say it.

TJ Klune: 13:47

Right.

Jason Blitman: 13:49

upon thinking about that and doing a little bit of research, I discovered that the book was published 16 days before the end of World War Two. And that's just such an interesting thought exercise. to like understand time and place and what was an important text of the time, right? And we find ourselves in a time and place with, you know, maybe more texts of the time, but certainly that would fit on the shelf with Animal Farm esque

TJ Klune: 14:22

Right,

Jason Blitman: 14:22

um, to really talk about the world that we're living in right

TJ Klune: 14:25

right. And you know, it goes back to that idea of, of subtlety in a way is that I, I, because I think, I think a lot about, you know, when I write these books, when I write, anytime I write, I think about my queer audience first and foremost, my books are for anyone who wants to read them. Anybody can pick them up. But I think about my queer readers because I never got to see myself in fiction. When I was a kid and if I did it was I was the character was getting sick They were getting killed or they were there to be the very valuable lesson for the straight counterparts the very first queer novel That I read at the age of 15 was the front runner by patricia Nell warren and that book came out In the 70s and was the first critical and commercial success of a quote unquote gay novel and of course Sorry to spoil a 50 year old book, but of course that book ends with the murder of one of the main characters, the love interest of it. He's assassinated

Jason Blitman: 15:22

sure, it was also written by a straight

TJ Klune: 15:24

Yes, exactly. And I just, I, I think about, what we get to see and to see ourselves in. I mean, how many books can you say have a fat fussy man in his forties as the main character, as the hero of the story, that's how the house in the cerulean sea was. We don't get to see people like that being the heroes of the book, of the books, even though most people, Look like Linus, act like Linus, talk like Linus. That's, we're not all beautiful, pretty people with six pack abs and you know, whatever. It's, I love how normal and ordinary he is because I think it takes someone normal and ordinary to do something extraordinary.

Jason Blitman: 16:01

Absolutely. Speaking of, you know, if queerness is a magical trait, what sort of power would you say it gives you?

TJ Klune: 16:12

So when I was a kid and coming into my queerness, when I was, when I came out, I came out with kind of a chip on my shoulder, you know, because I grew up in a, I grew up in a home that

Jason Blitman: 16:21

That does not come through in your writing at

TJ Klune: 16:24

I I was very cynical. I was very angry because I grew up in a house that hated me for who I was. And so I think a lot about, What my queerness is to me, and what it is, is not my entire thing. It's, it's part of me, but it's not my entire identity. It's kind of like me having ADHD. It's not part, it's not my entire thing, but it is big. But, my queerness, my superpower with my queerness, is that it has taught me to take no bullshit. From anyone I had spent the first half of my life being talked down to being Getting life filled with homophobic vitriolic and abusive comments And it has taught me a very valuable lesson and also being a writer and and putting myself out there has taught me a very valuable lesson in that There will be people no matter what I do who will hate me and dislike me or don't like what I do and that's fine that's the whole point of being you know in the arts is there has to be criticism of it, but I also am at a point in my life, I'm in my 40s now, and I'm at a point in my life where I just don't give a shit what people think about me, what people say about me. You, you love my books? Wonderful, thank you. You hate my books? Okay, that's your right to do so. That's totally fine with me. But! The line of bullshit that I'm willing to take is gone is done It is it is that is my superpower Is that I am blunt and to the point and if I think you're trying to string me along for something I will call you out for it because not not many people do that. And I think it's important that that we we call out bullshit when we see bullshit

Jason Blitman: 17:58

you talking about your youth, and, you know, really sort of not, not talking about I don't want to say not being allowed to be who you are, but not being appreciated for who

TJ Klune: 18:08

Oh, I wasn't allowed to be who I was it was it was a very very dark household

Jason Blitman: 18:13

Yeah. There's a lot in the book about not just the idea of being loved or being liked, but about being seen. where was a, what was a time for you where you were like, I feel seen. I feel like me. Is there something that comes to

TJ Klune: 18:26

Oh, absolutely. And in the when I was a kid, I learned that things that brought me joy were things that could be taken away from me very easily. So I was I was the kid whose parents made fun of him for reading. I loved reading. I read anything and everything I could get my hands on. And with that came my desire and my love to write. So I kept these notebooks that I would fill with stories. of whatever came into my head. I started at six years old and I just kept on writing. But again, it was something that I didn't tell anyone that I did. Not until seventh grade, not until I got to my first class with two teachers named Mrs Benson, Mrs Pfeiffer. There was one time time specifically that I remember this, and it was that We were given an assignment where we had to write a fictional story based upon a memory we had, and I can't remember what I wrote, but I do remember this is the early nineties, me walking in dressed head to toe in corduroy because that was the cool style at the time with my new kids on the block folder with my story in it, and that was the day that I learned the teachers were evil because Instead of doing what I thought they should do and take the stories home to read them, they gave us busy work and began to read them in front of us. And I saw my new kids on the block folder getting higher and higher in the pile. And I was a nervous, anxious kid. Like I was a mess. And so of course I'm flop sweat. I'm sinking lower and lower and lower in my seat. And then It's my, turn. it's my it's my story. Mrs. Bents opens it. and something happens that didn't help happen with any of the other stories. And trust me, I was watching. She left. She started chuckling. She started She started laughing louder and louder. She started laughing so loud that Mrs. Pfeiffer came over to see what she was laughing about. And she, Mrs. Bent started the story over from the beginning. By the time that they both finished reading it, they were laughing so hard that they were crying. And that was the very first time in my life that I understood that the written word had power. That it can make people happy, that it can make people sad. Words can start religions, cults, wars, relationships, friendships, all of this stuff. It can destroy so much. But at that moment in time, I understood that words could make people happy. In my very last class with them, they told me they would see my name on a book in a bookstore one day. I am here because of Mrs. Bentz and Mrs. Pfeiffer. Without them, I don't know where I'd be. Especially since the following year in 8th grade, I had an English teacher who told me I should give up writing because I'll never amount to anything. If I had heard that without having Mrs. Bentz and Mrs. Pfeiffer in my corner, that would have destroyed me. Bye. I did have them. They were the first people in my life to tell me I was good at something and I've never forgotten them so much so that I went back to that tiny little crappy town in Oregon called Roseburg last year for the release of my book in the lives of puppets. I went to the very same library that I went to as a kid that saved my life and I got to stand there and give a speech in front of 300 people about how much Roseburg had tried to beat me down. But I was here, and I was still here, and I was going to continue doing what I was doing. What I did not know was that Mrs. Bentz's son was in the audience. I told the story about Mrs. Bentz and Mrs. Pfeiffer. They had both since passed away. And I did not know that Mrs. Bentz's son was in the audience, and he came up to tell me afterwards that all he's ever heard about his mother from their former students is how much she supported them. And that to me is the great. I went back to this little tiny town that screwed with my head so much only to come face to face with the son of the teacher who changed my life. And I got to tell that story. We didn't know each other. We didn't know. He didn't know. I knew his mom. The only reason he knew is because I told that story. And it's just that was one of the most magical, wonderful things that's ever happened to me, even if it did happen to be in a place like Roseburg, Oregon. Roseburg, Oregon.

Jason Blitman: 22:24

That's incredible. Thank you for sharing

TJ Klune: 22:26

Thank you. It's so important to me because teachers are, are some of the most underpaid, underappreciated people in our, in the world. I mean, to me, teachers should be the ones that are making millions of dollars every single year for what they do. But of course, that's only the politicians.

Jason Blitman: 22:46

I agree. I, um, I am still in touch with my, one of my high school English teachers. I was not a big reader in high school. I barely finished the books. I only recently feel like I learned how to read. Um, and now I host a book podcast. So shocking to all of us, but now I'm back in touch with this high school English teacher and I get such a kick out of it and she gets such a kick out of it, but she was also one of those people who. She was, you know, like a hippie, very supportive of all of her students, and I grew up, um, in a state that comes up in your book as, uh, a terrible, horrible place.

TJ Klune: 23:26

Hmm, I wonder what state that is, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:32

I'm, I'm long since

TJ Klune: 23:34

Good, I'm happy for you.

Jason Blitman: 23:36

so being there, you know, it was a very interesting, you know, experience growing up and without some of those teachers, uh, we just wouldn't be who we are today. So

TJ Klune: 23:44

It's so funny when you, when you talk to when you talk to, you know, queer people and a lot of queer people have that one teacher that, that saw them and then helped them. many many don't, but there's a bunch of us have had that one teacher that meant everything to us.

Jason Blitman: 24:02

Yeah. I mean, and listen, I want to give them all credit because I had, I had multiple and I, um, Didn't realize until much later in life how much that meant to me and how important it was especially as a young queer person

TJ Klune: 24:15

and when I, when I go and talk To

Jason Blitman: 24:16

bit of a

TJ Klune: 24:17

yeah, when I go and talk to students, I tell them, I tell that story. And then I tell them, if you have a teacher like that in your life, tell them, tell them, thank you. Because you don't know if you're one day, you'll not get the chance because, Oh, I graduated, moved on, went to college, and now I don't have a chance to do so. Tell that person now how much they have meant to you for doing what they do. Because trust me, every teacher loves to hear that.

Jason Blitman: 24:42

I was just texting with Byron Lane, and I've decided that Jason and Byron, in Somewhere Beyond the Sea, are inspired by me, and Byron Lane, just FYI, you were inspired by the two of us.

TJ Klune: 24:55

I, I, I am fully prepared for readers to be demanding a story about those, about those two, Jason and Byron. They're gonna be, and it's not gonna happen, but I am already prepared for it. I am already prepared for it.

Jason Blitman: 25:09

well that you build these worlds where for better or for worse, there can be so many more paths that people take down. Speaking of, was it my imagination? Or are there some coded references to The Wizard of Oz?

TJ Klune: 25:27

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, the opening, if you think about the opening of the House in the Cerulean Sea and, and in an absolute gray and, and discolored world, and then you get to go to his version of Oz, which is the island, the ocean, and that's where he actually sees color for the first time. The Wizard of Oz. For anybody that has not seen the Wizard of Oz on a theater screen, I beg you, if you get the chance and it's playing in your area, go see it because the moment that it pops into Technicolor is still one of the most transformational moments in film, in art, because it's beautiful. And so that, the opening of the house in the Cerulean Sea was definitely meant to be an homage to the Wizard of Oz and Dorothy going from sepia toned Kansas to finding color for the first time in her life.

Jason Blitman: 26:15

I mean, it's not even that, and it might be accidental, but this doesn't give anything away. But, but, in Somewhere Beyond the Sea, there are lines like, Well, why didn't you say so? Which is directly from The Wizard of Oz. And, I'm gonna miss you most of all. Which is directly from The Wizard of Oz. So, I feel like it was a test of, how good of friends are you

TJ Klune: 26:38

Dorothy? Yeah, it

Jason Blitman: 26:43

I was like, I see you TJ Klune. Yes, I'm as gay as you are. Thank you very much.

TJ Klune: 26:47

got me there. You got me there. That is, yes. I'm very happy that you caught that'cause not a lot of people get the little stuff like that. It just, I mean, man, congratulations. You are super gay. So

Jason Blitman: 26:59

I will send you my address for the plaque.

TJ Klune: 27:03

That's amazing. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:05

so you talk about going to the island, seeing color for the first time, and escape, what's your island?

TJ Klune: 27:10

Where I live right now, so in, in October of last year, well, I have to go back even further than that. I, I lived, I moved from Arizona to the state of Virginia in 2013. Now, I don't know if, if anybody listening has ever been to Virginia, but it is the South. Like, hardcore the South. The more north you get in Virginia, the more, you know, I don't want to say normal, but the less, the less, the less, uh, confederate flags you see flying around in places. And, um, I lived in Fredericksburg, which was about an hour south of Washington, D. C. and D. C. permeates everything like an infection. Everything is everything there. And so I told myself that. I needed to get off the East Coast and that I wanted to move back to the Pacific Northwest by the time I was 40. Then 40 came and went, 41 came and went. I turned 42 last year, or I turned 42, 41 last year. And I, in August of last year, I sat down and I thought, I hate this house. I hate this place. I don't want to be here anymore. Why haven't I done that? So in August, I got a realtor. In September, I bought a house in October. I sold my house and then I packed up my dog and my cat and drove from Virginia to Washington State to my, I now live in a log cabin on 10 acres in the mountains. The town that's closest to me is a town called Leavenworth that is known for, um, their chicken It's basically the Christmas capital of the United States because they decorate five months out of the year for Christmas and they film Hallmark movies here. So I moved

Jason Blitman: 28:56

I know what you're about to start

TJ Klune: 28:57

I moved to my own little corner of the world and I mean, I'm looking out the window right now and I'm just seeing a vast expanse of forest and hills and trees and it's just wonderful. It's, this is my place, this is my happiness.

Jason Blitman: 29:10

If we thought you wrote a lot of books before, now that you're in your locked cabin,

TJ Klune: 29:14

god, I've already written two this year. I already wrote two books this year.

Jason Blitman: 29:18

What? How? How? What do you do for fun?

TJ Klune: 29:24

Oh man, I do a lot of fun, but I also write a lot and very, very quickly. I'm a very fast writer. I wrote a short novel, then I wrote a longer novel. And one of those isn't going to come out until like 2028. So

Jason Blitman: 29:39

because like, you know what? Keep writing, and then who knows, you'll have like, books coming out posthumously for 20 years after you've died.

TJ Klune: 29:47

have, I have so many more ideas than I have left in life, than I have left in my life, so I will be writing until I'm putting the ground.

Jason Blitman: 29:57

The book, I'm not gonna lie, stressed me out.

TJ Klune: 30:02

Somewhere beyond the sea. Stressed you out,

Jason Blitman: 30:06

Yes! Because of its subtlety, TJ!

TJ Klune: 30:11

Uh,

Jason Blitman: 30:12

There were a few times I put it down, and I'd be like, I'd turn to my husband and be like, This is, this is too real. I need to put a pause on this for five minutes. Um, but, but something, there's a line that comes up that says, a time will come where all of us have to make a choice between what is right and what is wrong. And it was so frustrating to read that because we learn that as children,

TJ Klune: 30:39

You

Jason Blitman: 30:39

right? The difference between right and wrong. And it is infuriating to think that. The older we get, I say in quotation marks, the older some people get, they regress into forgetting how to navigate being human. And, you know, there's a history of people not doing that particularly well. Why is it hard for people to understand the difference between right and wrong?

TJ Klune: 31:01

know, if I had that answer, man, I think that the world would be at a much better place because I hope, I hope I would be able to help spread that message. But I, I want to tell you, uh, about a kid I met in, in 2022. I was asked to go to a very rural school in West Virginia. This school, this, the place that the school was in was so rural that the, the school itself was, uh, kindergarten through 12th grade, all in one building. And I got to go there and speak with the sixth to the twelfth graders and I got up on stage, did my spiel, whatever, talked about books, talked about myself. Afterwards, I come to find out that the school board was upset because I'd used the word queer and that that might have made someone very uncomfortable and did I know that we shouldn't be using that word like that. Um, I, you know, laughed it off because I was saying, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Afterwards, I got to meet with a select group of students. I had this 12 year old boy come up to me and he goes, I know all about the gay stuff. And I said, what do you mean? Tiny little 12 year old boy. And he goes, last year I had a girlfriend. He came out as trans and now he's my boyfriend. If it is that easy for a kid, why is it so difficult for adults? If it is that easy for a child to understand, accept, and move on, not make a big deal about anything, then why is it so hard for adults? Somewhere Beyond the Sea posits a very big question that I've been thinking about a lot lately. If so many, so many things are done on behalf of children, removing books from their schools, targeting their queer or trans classmates, forcing them to do walkouts of their schools to protest everything that's going on. If all of things are going on, why is nobody asking the kids what they think? Why does nobody ask the kids what they want? They're smarter, more worldly than we ever were at their age because they have access to every piece of information known to humans through their phones. They are, they, I mean,

Jason Blitman: 33:08

in their lives don't like to think

TJ Klune: 33:09

right, but they, they know about about wars. they know about. genocides. They know about little things like laws being passed in their home states or towns or just in their schools that are targeting, you know, marginalized communities. They know. And something I, I feel bad, not always, but sometimes I feel bad saying this, but now right now I don't feel bad saying this one day and one day soon, all the white old white people in power are going to die one day soon. They're all going to be gone. It's going to be the young people coming up now, and the young people has the unenviable task to have to fix a broken world. But if anybody can do it, they can. I absolutely

Jason Blitman: 33:54

so I will say, so while the book stressed me out, that sentiment.

TJ Klune: 33:59

Mm hmm.

Jason Blitman: 34:00

Made me feel better because that is also very clear in the book. It's very much a, the children are the future

TJ Klune: 34:06

right. But it's also it's also about being a parent and. Being a parent like Arthur, what I love about this book is Arthur's, you know, his conflict. He's been teaching these kids to do exactly what they're doing, but it's stressing him out about it because he never thought that the day would come when they'd actually have to put that, or at least it'd be here so quickly. So what does a parent do when what you've taught your children is what they're doing and what they're, they're trying to speak up. But when do you take a step back and say, Go. Go make your go. Go fix the world. Go change because we always want to protect them. We always want to protect those who need our protection. But what's the time where you step back and you say, you have to do this on your own. You have to make your own mistakes. You have to learn. And then Arthur gets told that by his own kids. They specifically sell will come out and say, Arthur, go fix the world. You've trained us, you've helped us grow, you've, you've taught us about the way of the world. Now we actually have to put that into practice. And that's still a hard thing for, for Arthur to do, like I'm sure it's hard for many parents to do.

Jason Blitman: 35:11

Sure. I mean, in people in general, you know, putting their faith in, in the, in others and people that they've inspired, um, that as an idea as well as some other things throughout the book. There's like a hum of, it gets better.

TJ Klune: 35:28

Yeah. But the, I, can I say, I think that it's gets better program that they launched in schools was the absolute dog shit. I think that was the worst

Jason Blitman: 35:39

Oh,

TJ Klune: 35:39

world.

Jason Blitman: 35:40

I agree with you. I think I mean that sort of, uh, anecdotally, metaphorically, like, Arthur having a moment of never believing that he would be able to find love. Right. Like that, that is a concept of like. quote unquote, it getting better from his childhood, right? Or these young people, it getting better from whatever their former situation was. Unfortunately, the idea of it gets

TJ Klune: 36:05

Right.

Jason Blitman: 36:05

sort of been, uh, turned into something that

TJ Klune: 36:09

But no, it does. But it also shows that you have to put in the work. To do that, you know in order for the world to become a better place in order for communities and and groups of people countries to become better places It can't be done by just one or two people. It has to be done by everyone putting in as much as they can but unfortunately Humans exist People exist, you know, I often say I really don't like people But I love humanity because humanity gave us art and music and so many cool things people just suck

Jason Blitman: 36:44

Sal in the book is, is expressing to probably Arthur, uh, because there's a conversation about, about how it's problematic when you surround yourself by people who think like you and there's just this echo

TJ Klune: 37:01

hmm.

Jason Blitman: 37:02

Um, and I think Sal calls him out saying like, isn't that what we're doing? Right, and so, for, how do I want to ask this? There's the idea of like, we're angry, you and I,

TJ Klune: 37:22

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 37:24

And yet, we also, here we are cis white gay men, and in this tiny moment we're in this little echo chamber expressing the same things, right? How do you think it's possible, or what are practices that you maybe engage in, to develop empathy for people outside of our little echo chamber?

TJ Klune: 37:50

Right. So I, I always want to go under, you know, cause there's the saying that it's usually just stupidity, not malice that, that people are acting with you. Granted, we know plenty of people who act with malice and who are actual dangers to others, but you have people that are, that are simply either a have never even had the chance to even speak to say a queer person before. B, they've never, they've never read books with queer people in them. They don't, so it's, you know, it's the idea of the fear of what they don't understand. We use that word fear, you know, people will try to say, well, homophobia, I'm not, I don't fear homosexuals. You know, you kind of do because that's kind of what your whole thing is. But I think a lot about is just not understanding, not having the exposure, not having the, You know, being so isolated in your own little world where everybody talks the same, acts the same, believes in the exact same thing. That's where I grew up. That's where I grew up in this conservative little town where everybody believed in the exact same thing. And it wasn't until I got out into the world that I saw that that's not reality. That's a tiny little cross section of this infinite thing that is our world. And I just it blows to me what I do. is a I first keep and always protect my no bullshit role because if I feel somebody is actually just trying to egg me on and do something like that, done quite. You don't I'm not wasting my time. But if I actually have people who really want to hear, really want to change. Let me tell you this. I went in deep in the pandemic, deep in the pandemic, we had to do a lot of online book clubs. So one time for the House in the Cerulean Sea, I got an invitation from a group I did not expect, a Southern Baptist church. So, you know, me with my own prejudices thinking, Oh, this is going to be a shit show. There's row after row after row of white women in their seventies and their eighties. and they're all welcoming and wonderful, except for one, there's a lady in the top right corner who is staring glaring at me the entire time. So we had a great discussion about the book, blah, blah, blah. And of course, me sitting there thinking, well, I kind of had some biases that I didn't really, you know, didn't pan out too well until the very next day. I get an email from, guess who? The very angry lady in the top right corner who didn't say a word aside from glaring at me the whole time. And in this email, I'm talking blocks and blocks and blocks of text. She takes me to task. Why? Because of my inclusion of the Antichrist, how dare I include the Antichrist in the book? Do I know who the Antichrist is? Do I know what he's prophesied to do? And while she did come to care about the six year old Lucy, she really wishes I had, I'd gone in a different direction. But then, but then she ended the email with the best sign off of anybody that I've ever received an email from. She ended after taking me to task for the inclusion of the Antichrist for, for going against her beliefs and blah, blah, blah. She ended the email saying, but I did not mind the homosexuals. So think of it like this. I made her so mad about the antichrist that she forgot how to be homophobic. That is how you win.

Jason Blitman: 41:18

that's available as a t shirt at tjkloon. com.

TJ Klune: 41:23

I did not mind the

Jason Blitman: 41:24

mind the homosexuals.

TJ Klune: 41:26

exactly. Exactly. And so to me, that just shows. that people they just need to have that door opened a little bit and then all this light comes in and they won't mind the homosexuals yeah

Jason Blitman: 41:43

and someone says, should I punch you somewhere else so that you don't feel that pain anymore?

TJ Klune: 41:47

exactly that's what it was

Jason Blitman: 41:48

The antichrist was, was punching some was somewhere

TJ Klune: 41:51

and then the gays were sitting in the back going hooray and then she was like okay i don't mind the gays now it's totally fine yeah

Jason Blitman: 41:58

it's so funny. I have to tell you, when I finished reading Under the Whispering Door, I emailed Sean. I See it as a stage play.

TJ Klune: 42:12

oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 42:13

one, one day, if it isn't already happening, because this was years ago, I'm like, oh, I know exactly how this thing will be on stage. Um,

TJ Klune: 42:22

One day, I hope, man. Because we know, we know how Hollywood moves. Very, very slowly, with almost everything they do. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 42:32

just Hollywood, but I want to see it in the theater. Like, like a, on stage, not in a movie. I mean, I

TJ Klune: 42:39

be amazing too. Yeah, I would love to see all of that. I want to see, I want to see books like In the Lives of Puppets as a musical. I want to see all these different things that happen with them. There's so many different cool things that can be done, but

Jason Blitman: 42:50

Yeah.

TJ Klune: 42:50

That's just how it goes.

Jason Blitman: 42:51

That said, before we go, are you a musical theater fan?

TJ Klune: 42:55

Not really, no, I'm a sad gay. I, I've never been, really been into musical theater. Like, let me tell you something.

Jason Blitman: 43:02

You can't say you're a sad gay and include so

TJ Klune: 43:04

I have never seen Wicked. I have never seen any, I don't, have I ever been to a play? I've been in plays. I don't know

Jason Blitman: 43:21

Oh my god. I am coming up there right now. We're going to see a play.

TJ Klune: 43:26

In Leavenworth, Washington! Yes! I, yeah, I don't know that I've ever actually been to like a full on, full on like, sit down, this play is gonna go on for like three hours and watch it. I've never done that.

Jason Blitman: 43:39

What? I am shocked.

TJ Klune: 43:43

I know. Like I said, bad gay.

Jason Blitman: 43:46

That has nothing to do with being gay. That's just like art culture. Have you never been to a museum?

TJ Klune: 43:52

God, don't even get me started there. Of course, I've been, like, one of my favorite things about living near Washington, D. C. was all the museums that you could go to in D. C. were free. You could go into the Natural History Museum that takes days to explore and you could stay as long as you want for free.

Jason Blitman: 44:09

Yes. But not seeing a piece of theater is like saying you've never been to a museum. I'm very offended.

TJ Klune: 44:17

And now this episode is never going to air. I'm not going to say hi to James Scully

Jason Blitman: 44:22

get me, this one did, this thing did. Okay, so the reason why I ask after all of that, there's a role that made Barbra Streisand famous in a musical on Broadway called I Can Get It For You Wholesale. And And she played a character, well no, Funny Girl came after I Can

TJ Klune: 44:40

I was going to say, I know funny girl.

Jason Blitman: 44:43

she played a character named Ms. Marmelstein.

TJ Klune: 44:49

I get where you're going with this now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 44:53

And I was like, I was like, if I'm catching all of these Wizard of Oz references, am I catching a Barbra Streisand

TJ Klune: 44:59

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 45:00

Maw?

TJ Klune: 45:01

no, no. Nope. Sorry. You missed. You missed that one,

Jason Blitman: 45:07

I didn't miss it. I just, I put it on you. I gave you more credit

TJ Klune: 45:11

that I deserved. Exactly, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 45:14

Oh my, TJ, who am I going to write to? I need to like, we need to get you to a theater. What's going You, you appreciate storytelling and art. Like you would love the

TJ Klune: 45:25

Oh, I think I would too. I just have,

Jason Blitman: 45:27

hell?

TJ Klune: 45:28

have never gone.

Jason Blitman: 45:30

Okay, well I'm taking you to a theater. We're gonna go see something fantastic. TJ, thank you so much for being here.

TJ Klune: 45:36

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 45:38

the Sea.

TJ Klune: 45:39

I'm so proud of that book. I hope you all enjoy it.

James: 45:44

I am so excited. Today's guest gay reader, you might know him from his performances on screen in Problemista and Fire Island, or from his stage turn as the Pirate King in Pirates of Penzance at the Northeast School of the Arts, or as the Fairy King in Driscoll Middle School's acclaimed production of A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Jason: 46:09

Where did you get this intel?

James: 46:11

recently he can be seen on Broadway in the super buzzy, much extended, incredibly acclaimed Oh, Mary. Today's guest gay reader, James Scully. Welcome to Gays Reading.

Jason: 46:23

How did you know I was in A Midsummer

James: 46:25

I do my research. I'm a close

Jason: 46:27

did I even say

James: 46:29

You said it on a pod, on some other podcast.

Jason: 46:31

I'm really impressed. Call me flattered and humbled.

James: 46:35

only play kings. Pirate King, Pirate King. Fairy King.

Jason: 46:39

I only play subtextually homosexuals doing a camp performance of an idea of masculinity.

James: 46:46

Yes,

Jason: 46:47

The Pirate King did that, Oberon did that, Mary's acting teacher is sweetly doing that.

James: 46:53

this is what your agent sends out. He's if you want James, this is what you're

Jason: 46:57

Well, They're like, we gotta work with what we got. Yeah.

James: 47:00

all you can do.

Jason: 47:01

Yeah,

James: 47:02

How is O'Mary going?

Jason: 47:03

it's going really well. Our, this is gross to talk about, but I think it's really interesting. Something cool about Broadway is the the Broadway grosses come out every week So you can actually see what each show

James: 47:15

Wait, you just said it's gross to talk about. It's

Jason: 47:18

I that and it was no pun intended It's gross to talk about your gross, but here we are here. I am doing it because when you're an actor in television you have assume Netflix was earning money from you season 2. I have no idea how much or how any of that worked. But we're still doing well in that department. Tuesday's always a happy day when it's like, oh good, I can check and see evidence that the show's not slowly going bankrupt. The show's going great. Last night was really lovely. Allie Wong came. She was a delight in case you're wondering.

James: 47:49

All right. This is Gay's reading. I have to ask James Scully. What are you reading?

Jason: 47:53

It's a split track right now. So I go through binges. I like don't read anything but like scripts and copy for Months at a time and then I'm like, oh my god If I don't pick up a book my mom is going to come to New York and beat the ever loving shit out of me Yeah, I know. She's an English professor. So Right now I'm reading Death in Her Hands by Otis and Moshfeg.

James: 48:15

Oh Yeah,

Jason: 48:17

and I try to whenever I'm reading her because are you familiar? have you read some of her stuff?

James: 48:23

are gorgeous Yes

Jason: 48:24

Shola's doing her graphic design, really understands the assignment. She is It's dark. It's dark and it's heavy. It's very unflinching. Did you see the film version of Eileen? Maybe with Anne Hathaway? You should. It's good. It's really dark. It's like really Did I mention that it was dark? No. It's like very She takes like an unjudgmental but ultimately pessimistic look at Humanity and like what we're capable of doing to each other. So In order to balance that out at the same time, I'm reading this I guess it's young adult fiction called The Inheritance Games. It's like a series by this author named Jennifer Lynn Barnes, and it's about like a young poor woman who randomly inherits like, a huge multi billion dollar fortune from this man that she doesn't know. And then so she goes to the homestead and meets all of his actual descendants, many of whom are, of course, impossibly hot men who, Immediately fall in love with her. There's two brothers who are both in love with her And she's like in love with both of them to the point where you're like, are we approaching like it? An incestual challenger situation? Is this gonna get

James: 49:33

This scans exactly.

Jason: 49:35

I was like, how did I not notice when I actually was a young adult reading these books, how just like, profanely, horny and infatuous they are. Because at that time, you're literally going through puberty. So you're like, No, this is normal. This is how I feel all the time. but now as a 32 year old, I've calmed down a little bit. Um, I'm not desperate for that at all times of the day. Yeah, so I'm reading these books and I'm like, Whoa, these 18 year olds are trying to fuck each other, but not. Because it's a young adult novel. So it's all just like handkerchiefs and like gifts left outside the door and like stolen kisses. And yeah, that is like a perfect bomb to the Unflinching, overt of, of Otessa, who I love. I wouldn't her for the world.

James: 50:29

is partly why I wanted to do this sort of coda of the series, because I'm a late in life reader, and the moment I started reading, like, five years ago, and started talking to friends about, I mean, literally, and,

Jason: 50:44

you were like, I was illiterate before that.

James: 50:46

mean, basically, I would, like, read and, you know, working on projects, and honestly, working for TheatreWorks, I read a lot of children's books. Then I started reading, and I was like, oh, right. These are cool. Books are good. And then started to talk to friends about books. And all of a sudden they were like, Oh, I'm reading such and such, or I'm reading that. And I was like, wait a minute. Books have never come up

Jason: 51:06

It's crazy how many gays are like posting like in tongues on their Instagram story. And I'm like. When do you have time to, I have never seen you, we've been at Fire Island together for weeks at a time, I've never even seen you look at a book, when in your life of like presumably having a 9 5 job in marketing, I think, I'm not really sure, and like, going on vacation to like Puerto Vallarta, Seemingly every other week and just like constantly being in a cave while having sex. When do you have time to be reading these books?

James: 51:42

James Scully is coming and reading these gays.

Jason: 51:46

I'm talking myself. I'm talking about

James: 51:48

is, well, but that's sort of point. I'm just like, I don't want to say you don't present as a reader. Cause like, what the hell does that mean? But like,

Jason: 51:55

Oh no, everybody who knows me is shocked. They're like, you can read, but we assume somebody was feeding you your lines and Like, an air pod on stage and you were just

James: 52:04

It's shocking. You actually know two books at a time. Like, that's amazing.

Jason: 52:07

Do I win?

James: 52:08

again, this is Part of why I wanted to do this. It's not just the gays on Instagram who only post about books. It's, oh, everyone's a reader, whether they know it or not. Wait, did you read in tongues?

Jason: 52:17

haven't, but that's on the list now. That and Everyone has been like, you know, the chest clutching. You have to read it.

James: 52:27

is not worth the time. I'm gonna cut that out.

Jason: 52:29

You should just beep out the name of the book, and then see if people can guess what we're talking about. Not to tell you how to podcast, but I

James: 52:37

You're right.

Jason: 52:37

gays love that. Because you're gonna get DMs, and everybody's gonna guess a different book, and then that'll be really interesting and revealing. Yeah.

James: 52:46

Um, I feel like I might have talked about it before, but it doesn't matter. You talked about Fire Island, and

Jason: 52:52

Mm hmm. Mm

James: 52:54

The book that this, that our conversation right now, the episode that this is going to be on is with TJ Klune, the author, talking about his book Somewhere Beyond the Sea, which is a

Jason: 53:06

hmm. Okay.

James: 53:07

his book, The House in the Cerulean Sea.

Jason: 53:10

Oh! This is another one, because, um, my roommates at my last apartment read it and were like, I think I had actually bought the book. And then they were like, I didn't even read it. And then they were like, James, you have to read this And then a friend was just in my apartment and pulled it off the shelf and was like, have you read this yet? And I was like, no, I haven't. And they were like, you would really like,

James: 53:30

like, it's like a dash of YA, very like, cozy, a little magical, very queer.

Jason: 53:38

Yeah.

James: 53:39

This is, you're on T. J.'s episode, and he wrote

Jason: 53:44

God. What an honor. Please tell him. I said thank you for the work that you do and I can't wait to read his book.

James: 53:50

let him know. so wrote the sequel, like he really needed to lay on thick the need for, a special space for LGBTQIA plus people.

Jason: 54:04

And he was also like, I'm trying to buy property on fire Island. So I need to write another book. Sorry, TJ. I love you. I'm just being silly.

James: 54:11

So, this book is really about themes of belonging. Their island is not dissimilar from Fire Island. So I'm curious in relation to you're on this episode. What was it like for you finding your safe space to be who you are?

Jason: 54:26

really painful and confusing, I think, which it's like, oh, wow, you're the only person to have that experience. But I think the funny thing often is that the biggest wall for a lot of queer people, especially when they become adults and move to a metropolitan area where they don't have to necessarily worry about the immediacy of being hate crimed every day or live under the thumb of a family that refuses to understand them. I think then the greatest obstacle is like instilled guilt that they're like, even though I know I want these things and even though they feel good, I feel ashamed and I feel embarrassed and I feel like I'm doing something wrong just by living naturally as who I am. And I think really, I didn't start understanding. what it meant to be like queer, like actively queer, like embracing that as like a strong part of my identity until like Julio Torres, my partner and I started dating. And then I was like, introduced to this High functioning, high falutin world of creatives, community organizers just queers who were like, I have actualized, and then leveraged that identity to not only make money and take up space, but change the world.

James: 55:46

Yeah,

Jason: 55:48

have to be like, yeah, I'm like gay. And I have a bunch of pretty girlfriends. And we go to a bar and watch drag race sometimes. And I'm gay. Not that's not like a valid and completely reasonable expression of yourself, but I was like, there's more. That can be Unpacked here, but in doing that there were a lot of moments where I was brought up short by my own By just this anxiety of am I a bad person? Like going to fire island living like you're not using the video so people can't see me making that face. Um Going full tilt queer, uh Is this? Hmm As it were. Um You Is that bad? Am I bad? Am I tics? Yeah, mostly the tics. Um, and it, I don't know. Not for me. It's not bad. It's what I need and what I want. Yeah, and there's not a physical space. I would say that, like, the safe space is when I am in the company of my community, which is people like Julio Torres, Fran Torado, Cola Scola, my cast members at O'Mary, my cast members that were in Fire Island with me. Tomás Matos is a safe space for really any queer person. Tomás Matos is like a mobile, moving, safe space. And more broadly now, it's now I'm, even if I don't know the person, I'm better when I'm at a party, when I'm out in public, at identifying who the safe spaces are, and the calling of my 30s, I think, as I leave the maelstrom of my late 20s, is to make myself into that. I actively find younger days that I feel might be adrift, and I'm like, hey, I'm your mom now. And when I'm at parties, I try to be the person who's okay, you did too much of whatever you did. Let's going to stroke your back while you sweat and vomit or cry or lay motionless on the floor. And everything will be okay. And I think I find, especially because I'm in a desirable position, the generation, we both had a, yeah, we both had a chance to, um, To experience a queer renaissance in our own lives that didn't have the shadow of a Republican government and or the AIDS epidemic hanging over us like a guillotine, right?

James: 58:01

You remember time before

Jason: 58:03

I've never had a Grindr account. So it's always been a time before Grindr

James: 58:06

right. So yeah. But but Like I needed to date, but without Grindr,

Jason: 58:11

right. And more important, and so between us and the generation above us, I feel like sometimes when I've had to try to have deep, meaningful connections with like older gays, there's obviously a lot of just like life wisdom there, But sometimes when it comes to the queerness of it all, it's like, they didn't get, they didn't have the open arena that we did. And it's I can't be a time machine for you. I can't give you those years back. And so there's a lot of natural and expected friction there. But for me, to the people who were as young as I am, I was at those times in those relationships. Now looking back, it's I feel like I can very intentionally try and break that up, not come to them with a sense of resentment of you're getting to live a life I never had. Even though a little bit they are, but it's also I got to live that life most, I'm getting to live that life. And also I want to like, leave an open, clear path for them to whatever they want that life to be. And I find that really rewarding when like young queer people feel comfortable being themselves around me. I'm like, Oh good. I'm doing I'm living right.

James: 59:16

We were talking about Fire Island. The film Fire Island that you were in is an adaptation of Pride and Prejudice. Have you ever read Pride and

Jason: 59:23

Yeah, my mom's a huge Jane Austen person, so is my sister.

James: 59:28

is there a Jane Austen that you'd recommend to someone who's never read Jane Austen?

Jason: 59:31

I'm crying for this. It's like, yeah, I would say it's, yeah, it like holds up. I'm, if that sounds appealing to you, I think sometimes, again, everybody should be living their own bliss. And it's if you don't like period. English, then don't force yourself to read Pride and Prejudice, especially when there's like numerous contemporary adaptations of it, just because you think that's like the smart literary thing to do. But if you're like, yeah, I think I'm into Jane Austen's voice as An author which like reasonably you could be obviously she's prolific at universally beloved Then get a crack open pride and prejudice or crack open pride and prejudice and zombies I also read that and found it super rewarding

James: 1:00:11

I think it's more about, like, getting the references?

Jason: 1:00:15

Which I will say it's super rewarding to go back and read something like pride and prejudice and realize oh my god this is So many of the things I love are brain children, ultimately, of this

James: 1:00:25

It's like the foundation of, Yeah. yeah, yeah. And I think that's sort of my impulse, and that's maybe I'll do, like a good, solid read.

Jason: 1:00:32

And why not?

James: 1:00:34

uh, alright. So you sort of read yourself slash read your gay brothers. do you have something else that's like a little quick read What's your hot take? What are you complaining about these days? Anything?

Jason: 1:00:49

Pedestrian traffic and bike traffic in Manhattan should work the same way that car traffic does everywhere else in the United States. Traffic moves on the right, If you need to pass, you move into the middle of the lane, you pass, and you move back over to the right. You don't drift lazily and slowly in the middle of the lane, you don't walk six people across. I don't fucking care that your family came to visit the city with you. You walk

James: 1:01:15

if you have to stop, you over to the shoulder.

Jason: 1:01:18

Yes. So many people. Wandering out into the middle of the bike lane without looking. So many people, so many cyclists in the middle of the bike lane going slow as fuck. It's not my job to swerve out into traffic because you don't understand how a bike lane works. And these, the only bad thing, the only bad thing about Oh, Mary! Is that we obviously work like on Times Square and getting to the theater every day. There's all of these fucking tourists who think Look, baby, I appreciate that you spent like 6, 000 just to get your family of eight, which maybe that's a problem. Let's start there to the city. Maybe you could have just had two kids and take it. I digress. It's not, it doesn't Not your jungle gym. This is not your living room. Like, why are you guys walking eight across down the sidewalk? And like, when you do that, and then they're like shocked when we have to push through them. It's like. Where was I supposed to go? I'm not going to walk out into the street because you're rude and thoughtless. That's what I'm

James: 1:02:16

There is an to say, in my younger days, I scolded some people, and

Jason: 1:02:22

I, when I'm on my city bike, there's a lot of, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

James: 1:02:27

they take that as like a, they're in New York now moment.

Jason: 1:02:30

Which sucks. It makes them stronger.

James: 1:02:33

You're such a fantastic reader. Look at you. I'm thrilled to have you. Thank you for

Jason: 1:02:37

This was really, This was really fun. Thank you for doing this. This was like such a nice midday punctuation.

James: 1:02:43

Oh, I'm so glad. Tell your mom I'm really proud of how much you read these days. And shh.

Jason: 1:02:49

gonna love that.

James: 1:02:50

And tell her to listen to Gay's Reading because we're not just for the gays.

Jason: 1:02:54

Okay. I will. You're also, yeah, you're for the moms.

James: 1:02:58

Wait, I have The best mom book for you to recommend to her. It's called Sandwich by Catherine Newman.

Jason: 1:03:04

Okay, wait, somebody recently suggested this to me as well. Okay,

James: 1:03:08

she This book is so great. Highly recommend. It's, I call it a mom book.

Jason: 1:03:13

that's good because the last book I recommended to her she fucking hated So I don't even remember the name Which is too bad because this would have been another fun BEEEEP moment, but um

James: 1:03:23

know, exactly. Yeah, she's probably heard of it. She'll be like, I read it, James. Don't worry.

Jason: 1:03:28

Maybe I can redeem myself with Sandwich by Katherine Newman she's probably already read it. Thank you, darling.

James: 1:03:34

Have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks James.

Jason: 1:03:36

Appreciate you.

1:03:37

Thank you so much. TJ Klune Thank you so much, James Scully. You're both. Terrific. Next week. We have an exciting author whose last book was a claimed and adapted into a movie starring some of your favorite actors. And he will be here to talk to us about his newest book. And our guests gay reader. It is the person who is credited with a joke that completely blew my mind. You have to just come find us, uh, next week to find out who that is like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts legal know, as soon as that episode drops. See you next week. Bye.