0:04

Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. You Hello, and welcome to gays reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman and welcome back. And if you are new to gaze reading, welcome, we're very happy to have you. If you are unaware, we are now on YouTube and you can check out our YouTube channel. All of our recent conversations that we've had with these fantastic authors. The link to the YouTube channel is in our show notes. So many other great things in the show notes. As well as our link tree on our Instagram page, you could follow us at gaze reading on Instagram. Especially do so because every week we are doing a new giveaway, every Thursday there's a giveaway. And then on Monday we announced the winner. So make sure to check that out on our Instagram at@gaysreading and if you could leave us a five-star review, wherever you listen to your podcasts, that is super helpful to get more people aware of gays reading. And subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It is greatly appreciated. This is banned books week cannot believe this is even a thing that we still need to talk about, but it is banned books week. And to learn more about events that might be happening near you, or how to take action, you can visit banned books week.org. I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself next week on gays reading, we have one of the most banned authors on the show to talk to us about their new book. As well as book Manning in general. But on today's episode, we have the terrific Rumaan Alam here to talk to us about his new book entitlement. And now entitlement. And every other book that we talk about on the show can be found on our bookshop.org page. If you're unfamiliar, bookshop.org is a great way to support your local indie bookstores buying through bookshop.org and it gets sent right to your door. Also on today's show, we have our fantastic guest gay reader. Leah deliria who is here to talk to me about what she's reading, but also about her exciting cabaret series at 54 below. And there are so many things that can't believe at. I'm so excited to share that we are partnering with aardvark book club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the United States can join today. Enter the code, gaze, reading a checkout and get their first book for only$4 and free shipping. It's it is a great deal aardvark book club, as it is. And now your first book is only$4 it's and the selection is fantastic. What is aardvark book club? It is a monthly book subscription shipping to the us and Canada. On the first of every month, they drop five to six new releases across a range of genres from literary fiction to fantasy to romance. They come in exclusive hardcover additions with a matte finish. They have buzzy new releases and under the radar gems. Their Instagram is fantastic as well. It's, they're so fun to follow us and make sure to follow them on Instagram. But yeah. Go to aardvark bookclub.com and enter the code gays reading first book$4. You're welcome. Oh, welcome to gaze reading Rumana alum

Jason Blitman: 3:44

Do you have an elevator pitch for Entitlement yet?

Rumaan Alam: 3:48

have one? Maybe you'll,

Jason Blitman: 3:50

I

Rumaan Alam: 3:50

Maybe you'll have a better one

Jason Blitman: 3:51

I have, I've been known to give an author an elevator pitch for their own book in the

Rumaan Alam: 3:56

have at it. It's hard, it's hard to summarize your own work, you know?

Jason Blitman: 3:59

It is hard. And you know, let's maybe reverse engineer because what does the word entitlement mean to you? Like when you hear that, yeah, right.

Rumaan Alam: 4:10

To me, what I like about that word, and The title was very hard to land on, but what I like about it is that. it kind of cuts two different ways. It sounds like a bad thing, but it's also kind of a good thing. And entitlement is also the word that we use in the West to describe social welfare programming, right? We describe those things as entitlements, which is also an interesting word, because it suggests that the The people possessed of power understand on some level that the people who do not possess money are nevertheless entitled to health, education, food, you know, I mean, of course, rich people do their damnedest to make sure poor people have to jump through hoops to get those things, but at least in the language, there is an acknowledgement that one is entitled as a human being in this society, in the United States, to food and shelter and all those things. So that's what I liked about this. The pull of that particular title, it's very risky to, I mean, it's hard to title a book. And, uh, when I pitched it to my editor, she had seen the manuscript with that title effects, because we had land, I had landed on it with my agent, Julie, at some point, and my editor was like, Maybe this is the title. And I was like, yeah, okay. I, I, there's this whole other part of the process in which it's like in the hands of the people who are helping you make the book. But, um, yeah, yeah. But I do think it is, that's the central to me, the sort of like power of the title, if it possesses any, is its elasticity, a less interesting title for this book would be privileged because that is not, Sort of, it doesn't have, as a word, the same elasticity, but entitlement does. We, we celebrate entitlement in certain people, right? It's considered like a, a badge of honor, and not in

Jason Blitman: 6:01

but it's so funny. Like for me, and maybe. I have, maybe it's something to talk to my therapist about why, what my initial thoughts are, but I, it starts as a negative for me. Because when I think of the word entitlement, I think of a sense of,

Rumaan Alam: 6:21

Maybe this is because you're a cis white guy, and you've been told, or taught, or a sort of a liberal cis white guy at this point understands They're sort of unwitting possession of a certain kind of entitlement and a desire to kind of keep it in check. And so, that makes sense to me that it might be present for you in a way that's different from others. But, yeah, I mean it's mostly a bad thing. It's mostly a bad thing. But we do, a lot of the synonyms for entitlement become sort of like, Marks of valor when you're talking about, um, I don't know, imagine like a kid who's doing his college admissions essays and the teacher is saying to him, not you're entitled, but you see yourself going somewhere. You're like, you're ambitious. You're hungry. You know, those are kind of variations on. This central idea and the same person might say, uh, let's say a woman running for national office. You're too, you're not, you're not as good as you think you are. You're not as

Jason Blitman: 7:33

have a sense of entitlement. Right, right,

Rumaan Alam: 7:36

entitlement, which is what people apparently are enjoying saying about someone who is literally the vice president of the United States and as well as the attorney general of the largest state in the country. They're like, well, she has no experience. She's so entitled. She has no experience. compared to this fucking moron who's running against her, right? Like people love, so that that's the elasticity of the word

Jason Blitman: 7:59

a hundred percent. Well, and and I think that, you know, I, I like need to, I don't need to prove to you that I read your whole book, but like, I

Rumaan Alam: 8:07

Maybe you do. I'm going to

Jason Blitman: 8:08

Right.

Rumaan Alam: 8:09

I'm going to quiz you later.

Jason Blitman: 8:11

All the, all the tabs, right. I just stick them in just to, just so it looks cute. Um, but I feel like because so, so. Going back to why we started talking about this, the elevator pitch for the book, I think the idea that this young woman of color, Brooke, she, is trying to make her way in the world, and when she lands a job that, that gives her some power, she Takes it and runs with it and feels entitled to things because of a position that she's in. I feel like that's a very inarticulate, quick

Rumaan Alam: 8:49

I like it. I like it. All, what I've been saying is, this is a book about money, which is like a lot less interesting because a lot of people write books about money. Danielle Steele writes books about money, in a way, right? Don DeLillo has written books about money. Like money, Henry James books are about money. Like money is like a part of narrative tradition for a really long time, um. So that is kind of a non starter as an elevator pitch, but what I, what I said, I think, I think at some point I said to Sarah McGrath, who's my editor, is like, it's a book about money replacing faith as the principal condition of contemporary life. And that is, that is what I think it is, but that's sort of like a highfalutin, that it sounds really boring, honestly,

Jason Blitman: 9:35

But you're

Rumaan Alam: 9:36

maybe I shouldn't say that anymore.

Jason Blitman: 9:37

you, if you have money, you don't need something to believe in because

Rumaan Alam: 9:42

Yeah, or money is something that you can believe

Jason Blitman: 9:44

Right, right, right, right. It's sort of symbiotic in that way. Um, in, and in a way, cause I also, when this airs two weeks ago, I have, will have had Dancy Senna on the show.

Rumaan Alam: 9:57

Love her.

Jason Blitman: 9:58

Obsessed. Obsessed. But also, the books can be cousins, I feel like, because

Rumaan Alam: 10:03

God, high praise. That's high praise. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 10:06

that book is also about money, right? And like, it's also, it's so much more than that as well, as is Entitlement, but like, you can sort of read them as relatives in some capacity, because they sort of make you feel uncomfortable, certainly as a cis white man. You know what I mean?

Rumaan Alam: 10:20

listen, that is Danzey's M. O. Danzey is like a very discomfiting writer. She, she wrote a book, her second novel, which I talk about all the time, and I feel like it's really criminally under read, it's called Symptomatic. Unreal book. Unreal. book. She's, she's a very, very gifted writer and also a great person, but like a really a gifted writer. And, um, yeah, I've had this experience a couple of times before of publishing, like when your book, it's like arbitrary in some ways, like when your book is coming out in relation to other books, but it's, it's kind of fun when you end up finding like a, you know, like my, when my last book came out, Brian Washington's. previous book came out at the same time. And Brian and I did three events together. And then we went to Paris together like a year later. And I was like, I love, I love Brian Washington. And I love like hanging out with him. And I love doing events with him. And it's so fun. And I'm doing two events with Danzey on this book.

Jason Blitman: 11:15

I

Rumaan Alam: 11:16

we had done an event in Cincinnati together. And it was like so fun. It's like, you know, this job can be very boring and lonely. And it's so fun to like have colleagues every couple of

Jason Blitman: 11:25

So the book is about money, but the book is also about oysters? Oysters?

Rumaan Alam: 11:29

It's also about real estate, so vis a vis your, you know, house purchase, but yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:34

But what's, there's clearly, you clearly have a relationship to oysters.

Rumaan Alam: 11:38

well, okay, so that's a real thing. That's a real, that's a real thing. That's a real initiative. So in the book, one of the philanthropic projects that is being endowed by Billionaire in the book. Is this pro

Jason Blitman: 11:53

protagonist, Brooke, is working for. Yeah.

Rumaan Alam: 11:56

Is this project to reintroduce or to help cultivate the oyster in New York Harbor? There is a real initiative to do that. I'm not really sure I understand. much about it. And I, my, my method of research is to like, learn enough that I can like, take it and run, but not learn so much that I feel like beholden to the fact. Both of my children in their middle, in their elementary school careers, had some experience with this oyster non profit. So it's in, it's in

Jason Blitman: 12:30

It's in your life in

Rumaan Alam: 12:31

of New York City schools, you know, um, I just kind of extrapolated from there. I think that's true about the beaver, like, the oysters are an integral part of the food chain that includes the beaver, which once existed in New York City, but was of course hunted to extinction like everything else. Um, and that there's some effort to return the beaver because in part what the beaver does in the ecosystem is, you know, they create these dams, which are hugely disruptive, but also not like they do something to affect the temperature of the groundwater. I don't know. It's. I don't

Jason Blitman: 13:06

How complicated, but very important to the ecosystem.

Rumaan Alam: 13:09

Yeah, apparently, but oysters, there, there are, I mean, function of the oyster in the book, right, is to show, remind us, A lot, at this point, a lot of society, and a lot of choices we are making as a society. function or predicated upon the largesse of rich people.

Jason Blitman: 13:29

Mhm.

Rumaan Alam: 13:30

Some rich people have politics just like me. And so I love the things they do. Mackenzie Bezos, I love what she does when she says, I'm going to make tuition at this university free. I'm like, yeah, goddamn, that's fantastic. Betsy DeVos, who says I'm going to dismantle the Very notion of American higher education. I'm going to do it both as the secretary of education and as a billionaire who inherited money from my stupid family's Ponzi scheme Amway. And I'm going to use all of this ill gotten money to destroy this thing that was the triumph of American democracy. Cause I don't want poor kids to go to school.

Jason Blitman: 14:03

Right.

Rumaan Alam: 14:05

That's also just, you know, by another person's definition, that endeavor is philanthropy.

Jason Blitman: 14:12

hmm.

Rumaan Alam: 14:14

So then we exist in this society where. It's defined as a tug of war between, like, you know, so called good rich people and so called bad rich

Jason Blitman: 14:23

Yeah. And so, in the context of the book, the, you know, there is this sort of element of this non profit working to save the oysters, which inherently is, on paper, perhaps a rich person appetizer. And Um,

Rumaan Alam: 14:40

Yeah. it's a little it's a little silly.

Jason Blitman: 14:41

a little silly, and then, and then when Brooke comes in, you know, she really feels like she's in the business of souls. And what does that mean to you?

Rumaan Alam: 14:53

I need, I, I needed Brooke to have a sense of deeper purpose, and I think soul is really the right kind of language because so much of the book is concerned with faith and, you know, It's not exactly spirituality, but it's this kind of sense of the sacred or something that exists outside of the sphere of money. And we tell ourselves that like the most important things do exist outside of the sphere of money. Jesus ejected the money changers from the house of his father, right? Like it is debased to talk about money in the context of things that matter the most, but is it, is it, or don't we do it all the time? Don't we do that all the time? Put a price tag on everything. And talk about money as though it is logic, as opposed to arbitrary, which is what it

Jason Blitman: 15:51

and even if you say something is priceless, there's still, it's still in relation to money.

Rumaan Alam: 15:58

Everything, everything is defined in our culture in terms of its monetary value. Absolutely everything.

Jason Blitman: 16:05

there anything that you think money cannot do?

Rumaan Alam: 16:11

Well, okay, people like to say that I can't buy happiness, but do you, I kind of think that's not true, or not the whole story.

Jason Blitman: 16:17

I think. I say that as a poor person.

Rumaan Alam: 16:21

Right, well, you say that because rich people have asked us to say that. They've asked us to believe it, in the same way that people who are possessed of money consider it impolite to talk about it.

Jason Blitman: 16:32

Mm-Hmm.

Rumaan Alam: 16:33

Because if you make it into something that is taboo to discuss, or at odds with, like, what matters most in life, then you are allowed to. You know, it exists outside of the notice of other people. Okay, money doesn't buy happiness. Fine. That's fine.

Jason Blitman: 16:50

I don't, I don't know. I think it can buy a lot of things that make you happy. I think it could buy a lot of things that make you comfortable. I think it can, it can provide things that can lead to happiness.

Rumaan Alam: 16:59

I'll tell you what it could buy. If you have a kid who has leukemia and you are a zillionaire, you can have your child treated for leukemia. If you have a kid who has leukemia. and you have nothing, then your kid's gonna die.

Jason Blitman: 17:09

Mm-Hmm.

Rumaan Alam: 17:12

That kid is the source of your happiness. It is your only thing in life. And that is true for people who have nothing and true for people who have everything. So, in, that alone shows you that, right? Education is another thing, like, we just, we're sort of obsessed with this idea in this country that like, money doesn't matter, you can pull yourself up, you can start from, everyone's sort of on this level playing field. It's so obviously untrue that it's almost ridiculous to pretend that it isn't. Education can be so enriching in a way that has nothing to do with anything, nothing to do with what you do for a living, nothing to do with anything. It's an enriching human endeavor that is, the access to which is pretty curtailed for most people. Education is really expensive, you know, and I'm not even talking about like going to a four year private college. I'm talking about having an experience of life where you get to see and care about things that are interesting or disconnected from professional value.

Jason Blitman: 18:03

Going to a museum is expensive. That is an education. You know.

Rumaan Alam: 18:09

And museums function, are predicated on the largesse of billionaires, right? They hoard things, give them to a museum and put their name on them, and exercise almost perpetual ownership over these things, um, that again we describe as being priceless, but at some point they did have a price effect, so then they were given to the Metropolitan Museum, which is, has an endowment larger than that of most nations, right? So like, what? We, I don't know, I think we all are aware of the fact that we exist in a society that sort of. Um, talks out of both ends of its mouth. Right. It is sort of like deeply hypocritical about this

Jason Blitman: 18:47

Well, and in talking about museums, you know, something that also comes up in the book is the concept of like art being for the people and being for people and accessible to other, to everyone, you know, and it's like, yes, there are libraries that are accessible and there are museums that can be free, whether it's at times or always. Um, you know, I worked for a long time at the public theater in New York city where they do free Shakespeare in the park and they really do believe in theater being something accessible to everybody. Um, but there's still That does come at a price tag. Funnily enough, the public does Free Shakespeare in the Park every year and imprinted, embedded in the, the granite or marble or whatever the lobby floor is. Do you know what it says? The Ford Foundation.

Rumaan Alam: 19:33

Oh, yeah. Right. It's not that the Ford Foundation is doing bad things, right? And it's not that Michael Bloomberg is doing bad things, and I believe, I just said this in another interview. I think it's true that he made, uh, the medical school at Johns Hopkins tuition free. that is a significant gift with very significant reverberations. That's an extraordinary way to use your money. But do we want to live in a society where the ability to make extraordinary choices is entirely predicated upon the existence of a handful of people and the whims of a handful of people? I mean, that seems to be what we've chosen, and so then what we have is a billionaire class that is interested in going to space, like they're five years old, or like, whatever, stupid, you know, building stupid yachts. Like, can you imagine? more of a loser thing to do with your money than build a yacht. It makes me so sad for that person. It's like, that's what you wanted to do? You had all the, you have all the money in the world and you want to buy a fast boat? Get a goddamn

Jason Blitman: 20:30

Right. Well, and there's, to paraphrase some quote in the book, something along the lines of, you have to want something, because if you have everything, then life has no point. And I think that's why, Space suddenly becomes this thing, cause it's like, that becomes the thing the billionaire wants because they already have everything in life.

Rumaan Alam: 20:51

I think that's right. I think that's right. And

Jason Blitman: 20:53

buy an island.

Rumaan Alam: 20:54

honestly, that seems really, really sad to me. It seems really sad to me. I don't pity the very rich, but that does seem like extremely sad and then like an extremely curtailed kind of human existence. What a shame, you know,

Jason Blitman: 21:08

I feel like this is an interesting topic that, again, we could talk about all day in, in, in line with entitlement, right? Like, when you have money, what are you entitled to? When you don't have money, what are you entitled to? And vice versa. And, you know, beyond that, too. Asher, whose foundation it is, expresses to Brooke when she's trying to articulate something to him. that she needs to give him more than good, the word good, something is good, uh, good is a meaningless word for pointless chitchat. Do you have a favorite alternative to the word good?

Rumaan Alam: 21:43

I would, that's one of so many ways in which I would be disappointing to somebody like Asher Jaffe, you know, we do live, I think right now in a moment, culturally. Where there's a lot of pointless chit chat. So there is a way in which Asher is sort of like, articulating something that I feel. With the novel, right, which is the thing that I do. But also with other things, with films, with art, you know. There's a lot of like, chatter. At, that doesn't sort of, Right, that doesn't sort of like advance anything. Not that it's necessarily the mandate of every work of art to like, make some great leap forward formally or intellectually or whatever, like, I would not meet that standard myself, but like, hopefully I've exceeded the standard that I am describing, which feels very low to me, like, and I, Asher's impatience, I think, in the book is sort of born of the fact that he's at the end of his life, um, But there was a lot I admire in his, in his sense of entitlement, actually, his ability to say something like that. Like, oh, good isn't enough. Like, you're boring me. Sometimes I want to say that. Sometimes I say that about books I'm reading. I say it to myself, but you know, like,

Jason Blitman: 22:56

like be better, do better.

Rumaan Alam: 22:58

do better than this. I think what happens is that people don't experience what art can accomplish, that then they experience a work of art that accomplishes something and they think that that's fascinating. It's almost like being an adolescent. But then adolescents as a category are not known for being arbiters of taste. They respond to what moves them. I was the same way. You have this like deep and fervent feeling about J. D. Salinger or whatever, you know, whatever it is you encounter at the right time. And that's Fantastic and, and key, but I think that there's so much work now that is so rote or pro forma or doesn't really like do anything and people now misunderstand the objective of the novel. They think, oh, it's just words on a page. It's a story that's being told and that's what a book is. A book should make you, I mean, at its best, it makes me feel like I want to, I mean, I don't have any hair, but like I'm tearing my hair out or like I need to run around the block or something like that. I read, I read the children's book. I said, I wrote the introduction to it and I said this in my introduction, I finished the book and I was like, I feel like I need to go for a run. Like I've, this book made me feel so crazy. That's, again, this is a high standard. And one I probably wouldn't

Jason Blitman: 24:09

You want a book to move you so much that you grow hair to pull out. What is the last thing that you encountered, or what are some pieces of art that you've encountered that have made you feel that way? I mean, and it could be anything, a piece of theater, a portrait, uh,

Rumaan Alam: 24:24

Oh, okay, yeah. So this is, it's tricky because it was the summer. It's just the tail end of summer, so I've been like, in this sort of like, hermetic place of just reading on the beach or whatever, but I saw the movie Personal Shopper, the Olivia Assayas movie, and I, felt Insane, I had that feeling of like I need to go for a run You you have to understand that I don't run like that's why this is like a funny. This is a funny metric um, but it was it was so extraordinary and felt so apart from my experience of film, like consistent with the narrative conventions of the form, but also disrespectful of them. And it wasn't, it's a great central performance by Kristen Stewart, but it wasn't about the performance. It was really about like, the storytelling was so sophisticated and weird and reminded you that like, a film, Film like a good book can provoke something, but not really answer something. There was something about it that I just loved anyway. I think that was probably the last experience I had where I was watching something and I was like, wow. You know,

Jason Blitman: 25:28

yeah. Yeah, or even just being moved in such a profound way. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind for me is seeing, uh, the revival of Larry Kramer's The Normal Heart on Broadway. And I was just inconsolable afterwards. And I, like, needed to go for a walk, and I called my mom. I, like, walked from the theater to up to Columbus Circle. I, like, needed to just be, um,

Rumaan Alam: 25:56

I, I think art is unique in its ability to do that to you. I I'm blown away by that. I'm blown away by that. We, uh, earlier this year, like in the winter, my husband and I like skips We were self employed, but we skipped work and went to see, uh, The Zone of Interest. And afterward, my husband said, I think I'm gonna throw up. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly right. Like, what an incredible way to feel. Based on what? On a story you've been told, on pictures you're looking at, on sound, film, that film has a lot to do with sound. There's something so extraordinary about art's ability to do that to people. And actually, in the book, right, that is what Brooke cares about. She cares about art. And she, in some ways, I think, is sort of like saying a thing that I am saying to you. Like, again, I whatever they're doing with the oyster in the city is great and I'm glad and I want, I want there to be oysters. There were whales, there were whales in New York Harbor, right? Like, the water's clean now. It's cleaner than it's been in a long time. Like, that's fantastic. But art can do this thing. Like, when a movie makes you almost throw up, you're like, goddamn, well, that's something. What a thing, you know?

Jason Blitman: 27:09

Well, and I think art then perpetuates thought, and perpetuates action, and perpetuates other things, right? Like, yes, the saving of the oysters is important, but if you can experience a book, or a piece of art, or a dance, or a theater, or what have you, that then makes you think about something in a new and different way, that then makes you want to go, you Live in a new and different way, or, or act in a new and different way. I think that is what's important for me as an artist.

Rumaan Alam: 27:43

And also, I mean, again, like, vis a vis your experience with the public, the people who work at the public need to get paid, of course. They need to like, make a living and have health insurance and all those things. All of that is true. At the same time, what you're describing, what I'm describing, you can't actually talk about it in terms of money. But money is the only language we have for anything.

Jason Blitman: 28:09

You also can't do it without money.

Rumaan Alam: 28:11

You can't make

Jason Blitman: 28:12

Right? Right.

Rumaan Alam: 28:14

and you can't You can't talk, I mean, so the language of money has infiltrated like the most sacred of our spaces. Because to me, and to me that is art. But then where, what do you do then? Like where do you go from there? And in the book, right, there's a lot about Asher's ownership of art. You know, and again, it's like, I don't think private ownership of art is a bad thing. And if people didn't buy paintings by Kara Walker or Kerry James Marshall when they were beginning their career, then they wouldn't have the money or the stability to make other work, right? It's all very complicated. At the same time, like, should, I don't even really like Monet, but like, should one person possess that?

Jason Blitman: 29:02

Right.

Rumaan Alam: 29:03

I don't know. I don't have an answer.

Jason Blitman: 29:04

yes, one person can possess that one piece of art that then lives on their wall forever or until their house burns down or whatever, but similarly, there are only a select group of people that experience a certain chef's cooking. which is its own piece of art because they can, they have the means to do it. And so no one else gets to experience that except for the people that can afford it, right? You don't get to experience having a Monet on the wall unless you can afford it.

Rumaan Alam: 29:36

that's true. I guess I hadn't thought about that. Maybe I'm like, my tastes are more low rent than that.

Jason Blitman: 29:42

but even, I

Rumaan Alam: 29:42

I'm happy enough with like a hamburger, you know, I don't you know,

Jason Blitman: 29:46

Sure, but if you really like hamburgers and someone says, have you had this like world class best hamburger that's made from like one of the very specific bison that's found in blah, blah, you know, whatever. Like, and it costs X amount of money. And you're like, I love burgers. I really want to try that burger. You know, but it's 2, 000. Then it's a little cost prohibitive, but I don't know. I love a burger too, I might pay it. But no, I mean, even theater, Broadway tickets are so expensive. It's just, things are inaccessible. Um, and, and, and yet I think we all like to think we might be entitled to experiencing art.

Rumaan Alam: 30:22

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 30:23

because I think we

Rumaan Alam: 30:23

like a there's a there's a spectrum of experience. There's a spectrum and there's a way Again, I guess as a novelist. I don't feel like any particular pressure to answer these questions,

Jason Blitman: 30:32

right. You like put it out there for people to have the conversations.

Rumaan Alam: 30:35

I don't, you know, and I, like, I didn't, I didn't like publish this book at Kinko's and try and hand it out on this. Street. Do you know what I mean? Like, I also got paid like, and the people involved in making the book need to be paid. So it's not that money, it's not that money is bad on the face of it, because that's a, that's not an interesting observation to just be like, money's evil, capitalism sucks. Like that's a, those are uninteresting perspectives to me. What's more interesting to me is like, okay, well what do you. So how do you live morally? How do you, what are you supposed to do

Jason Blitman: 31:10

Sure. I mean, I was thinking, I was thinking a lot about need versus want. Right? And like, while that feels sort of childish and simple, Brooke, our protagonist, wants to live in a beautiful apartment. And Don't we all? And like, at what point is that a need? At what point, you know what I mean? Because I think like, at a certain point, maybe it is a need to survive, right? You need to feel like you can ascend from whatever, you know? And in order to feel that way, you have to live at a level, you know? Um,

Rumaan Alam: 31:48

Who, who, who's to say? I, I, it's so key to me, to the construction of this book, that Brooke is not poor,

Jason Blitman: 31:56

Right.

Rumaan Alam: 31:56

right? There's a version of this book, another idea of this book, and actually one editor who wanted the book told me to make it this way, in which Brooke is poor, but that's not interesting. If she's like the daughter of the maid, it's, it's, it's a narrow, that's convention, that's trope. Brooke is like a normal, stable, more than stable, upper middle class person, who has no, is not motivated at all. by need. There's no privation in her life. What her experience of money makes her want more, and it's not entirely defensible, but it's also, to me, entirely legible and entirely comprehensible. And the people who I know who talk the most about money, I mean mostly this is just the people I know, are middle class people. I know a handful of very rich people who never talk about it. One of whom I was actually shocked to discover was Extraordinarily rich. Like, extraordinarily rich. people I know have plenty

Jason Blitman: 32:57

Sure,

Rumaan Alam: 32:58

in terms of health and education and all of those other things and, and lament, oh, I wish we had a bigger apartment, I wish we could buy a second home, I wish we could send the kids to this expensive campground. This, and that is the system that the novel is attempting to show

Jason Blitman: 33:12

mm hmm,

Rumaan Alam: 33:13

And not to posit that there's some way out of that system, but to simply say that is the system. And maybe we spend too much time pretending that it isn't.

Jason Blitman: 33:23

yeah, I mean, well, it's interesting because now I'm thinking maybe it's not need versus want, it's want versus want more, you

Rumaan Alam: 33:30

I want more. I mean, I, you can't, you can't help it. You can't look at Instagram without Instagram being like, hey,

Jason Blitman: 33:37

you want this, right,

Rumaan Alam: 33:38

buy this sweater. What's wrong with you? And my instant, my, my algorithm is so fucked up, especially after spending all this time writing a book about super rich people. For a while, like I was like researching real estate for a long time for this book, and so for a while I was getting like Sotheby's International Realty ads. It's like, hey, do you still want to buy that house in Pacific Heights? It's only 57 million dollars, and I'd be like, no, what, why am I even seeing this? Um, Um, And, and then part of me is like, well, maybe I do one. And then, and then you see one that's like 31 million. You're like, Oh, maybe I should buy this one.

Jason Blitman: 34:13

Because it's so much cheaper than the other one.

Rumaan Alam: 34:14

so cheap. And this is like the mess. This is the message of American culture. This is like the call, and probably global culture at this point, right? Like buy buy participate and buy. So you can't really in a way feel bad for participating in that system because that's. You know, the society is stronger than you

Jason Blitman: 34:36

Well, and it's funny, because, like, truly, at the very beginning of this conversation, you said, it's a book about money, it's hard to articulate it in another way, and we, we keep going away from money, and then we keep coming back to money, because, like, as you again said earlier, it's sort of, What holds everything together. Um, but I want to talk about Brooke for a minute because she is very adept at noticing things on the subway and I have to ask what you are adept, what is your super power when you notice things on the subway?

Rumaan Alam: 35:04

Well, I do think that, like, over time I was gonna say New York life, but it's really just urban life. You train a set of senses that you didn't necessarily know you possessed. And you can, like, pinpoint, like, that person's gonna start yelling about Jesus.

Jason Blitman: 35:19

Right.

Rumaan Alam: 35:20

That person is like a little violent, that person hates gay people, this person is in a fight with the person next to them, like, I should sit near this person because I can tell they're gonna get off at the next stop. It's sort of like remarkable how much you're able to, it's like intuitive, but it's a learned, it's a learned thing, and it's been hard to, because I have two kids who are deaf, now take the subway by themselves and this is the thing that like they haven't quite learned yet like they haven't quite learned how to like do the scan and be like no that person's crazy so you don't want to go in their direction you know yeah

Jason Blitman: 36:02

Well, what's also funny to me about Brooke is as a young girl she wanted to be like Harriet the Spy.

Rumaan Alam: 36:08

yeah well i wanted to be like her that's why meow

Jason Blitman: 36:12

also, I think this is a very common thing. I also wanted to be like Harriet the Spy. I remember getting the like speckled notebook so that I could write just like her. Um, was it, is that what you did as a kid? Did you like write things

Rumaan Alam: 36:27

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, Harry, The Spy, to me, is a meta text. It is a fiction about fiction. It is a novel about being a writer. And it's also a novel of queerness, interestingly. I don't know if you've re read it since you were a child. I re read it, like, pretty much every year. It is Very, a very strange book. Really interesting book. Really holds up. A lot of writers I have known have claimed that particular book as very significant. Read it as an adult. I think you'll be very surprised by what, by the late, like, one of the guy, one of the people on her route is very clearly, Gay, it's very like coded gay. Harriet herself is very like coded queer and even down to the way that she kind of puts on, she sheds her sort of like girl drag and puts on her like spy clothes, which are much more androgynous or really like boyish and becomes like herself

Jason Blitman: 37:26

Mm hmm. And in the movie, Gully's played by Rosie O'Donnell.

Rumaan Alam: 37:30

I never saw the movie because I cannot bring, I love them, I love the book so much I cannot bring myself to watch

Jason Blitman: 37:35

I also grew up at a time where like the movie was a thing. So.

Rumaan Alam: 37:38

But the, and in the book, you know, that, that figure of the nanny. is quite severe. It's really, she's really closer to like, uh, I don't know. It's not really a Rosie O'Donnell vibe. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a more intellectual and rigorous kind of, I don't know, read the book.

Jason Blitman: 37:58

I will. Yeah. No. Well, now I want to. Um, I just mean like the, the queer codedness of the movie in the nineties, you stick Rosie O'Donnell in it and it's queer coded regardless of

Rumaan Alam: 38:09

I mean, I can't wait until she's on and just like that this fall. I'm really

Jason Blitman: 38:13

She's going to be on in just like that this fall.

Rumaan Alam: 38:15

Yeah. Get ready.

Jason Blitman: 38:16

All I want is to have her on this podcast. That's, she was very formative for me. So I'm, I'm gonna, we're going to get to her at some

Rumaan Alam: 38:24

she's a figure in American cultural life, you know?

Jason Blitman: 38:27

You bring up the play, You Can't Take It With You,

Rumaan Alam: 38:30

it's funny because I, that is a play that I only know from having seen a high school production of it when I was in high

Jason Blitman: 38:35

That's how everybody

Rumaan Alam: 38:36

Right? That's how everyone knows it. And like, I had like a huge crush on the boy who was the lead, I guess? Like, I don't really remember the text.

Jason Blitman: 38:44

no, neither do

Rumaan Alam: 38:45

it's, it's an, I! guess really all I remember is that I had a crush on this kid who I didn't even know. But, I will say, it is a great title. It's a really good title. Storytellers are drawn to like, the very rich, or the idea of having too much money, or like, the idea of like, pennies from heaven. These are great, Storytelling techniques in part because like that's what we all sort of privately want right like when you go to Whole Foods And you're like fuck I spent like a hundred dollars on seltzer like wouldn't it be amazing if like Gwyneth Paltrow was in line in front of me I was like I'm just gonna buy everybody's groceries right like wouldn't it wouldn't something like that be amazing like you spend some time thinking about that kind of stuff because you just you do and I Also, because that kind of storytelling, it gets to be really moralizing about money and make you feel better. Because what ends up happening always is that it's like, the money isn't the point, and like, you're happy without it. Or whatever, you know, whatever that sort of idea is. But I don't think that's true. And I don't think that's what happens in my book. I, I think money is the point and I don't know if Brooke is happier without it. I think she would have been happier with it, but you know, you have to read the book and see what happens for her.

Jason Blitman: 39:54

Something else that comes up in the book is the concept of everything in life is chance. And that is like You know, I think so many people can, can get on board with that notion because for whatever reason, but you look at someone right now, like Chapel Roan, who

Rumaan Alam: 40:07

this really is a gay podcast, isn't it?

Jason Blitman: 40:11

I'm sorry, but Chapel Roan is

Rumaan Alam: 40:13

Look at somebody like, I don't know, say, Chapel Roan, I don't

Jason Blitman: 40:16

But, but that's sort of the point! She's like literally of the moment right now, and came, I don't want to say out of nowhere, but went from zero to sixty in a really intense way, and like, it was because of chance. She wasn't doing anything differently. You know.

Rumaan Alam: 40:30

must suck, don't you think? I think fame must suck. It must be the worst. And I think being really rich must suck, too. I mean, I don't really pity the really rich, but there's a lot about Esher that seems very sad to me. And very pitiable. And in a way he's just like Brooke, he's just as like lonely and fucked as she

Jason Blitman: 40:49

Because at the end of the day, you can't take it with you.

Rumaan Alam: 40:52

You can't,

Jason Blitman: 40:53

is it all for? And what, you know, and at the end of the day, what are you? What did you do for yourself? What life did you live? What kind of person were you? Wait, page 159. There's like a whole company of people that he doesn't even necessarily realize is working for him. Asher, people that, like, are behind the scenes, names he'd never learned, faces he'd never recognized, the people who put soap in the guest bath, made sure there was food in the cabinets, watered the houseplants, picked errant leaves from the beds of white gravel, ensured the bicycle tires were always plump with air, cleaned the mud from the soles of the boots that were on the ground, left mail in neat piles, right? Like, you don't even think about. the little functions throughout the day. What is the one teeny, tiny, totally unrecognizable thing in your life that you would be like, I would want to pass that off to someone else?

Rumaan Alam: 41:50

You know, I don't like, you know, like taking my kids shopping or like, you know, like I said, so my, my, my teenager, you know, my teenager, he had a birthday and he's like a big guy now he's like my size and so he can't, you can't buy him kids clothes anymore. Adult clothes, and he, like, he saw this pair of jeans that he really wanted. It's like stupid designer jeans. It's like a street wear thing I don't know anything about, and like, it happened to be like the day before his birthday. And I was like, you know what? Okay, I'll buy these for you. It's like a half back to school and half birthday, and like the joy, like that sheer pleasure on his face. It's so dumb. It's like, pleasure shouldn't derive from what you're able to buy, right? At the same time, like, there is pleasure in that.

Jason Blitman: 42:36

Mmhmm.

Rumaan Alam: 42:37

And it does not have to be a 130 pair of jeans, because I've seen that experience on my kids faces when I buy them like M& M's, Right. And like, so that is like, it's like, yeah, everything is a transaction. Money is like, it's too present in our lives, but it's like, I participate in finding the pleasure in it too, and so it's like maybe that's not great, but like I also wouldn't want to outsource that. I wouldn't want like some person I've never seen or can't conceive of to be an intermediary between me and the like mundane aspects of child,

Jason Blitman: 43:14

well, but that, you know, that is interesting, it travels the line between you and your kids. But for me, I didn't have an answer when I first asked the question, but then immediately something came to me. We bought a couch that It looks very comfortable, but you sit in it and the moment you stand up, it looks disgusting and it looks a mess, and, and you have it like, takes minutes to reset it up and you have to fluff it and it's such a pain in the ass. That's what I would want someone else to do. I would be like, if I just, every time I got up off the couch, if someone re fluffed it for me, that's fine. I, I'm

Rumaan Alam: 43:50

but I mean, listen,

Jason Blitman: 43:50

bed.

Rumaan Alam: 43:51

yeah, there's plenty of labor. I would have, I mean, if you told me I never had to make my bed in the morning again, yeah, it'd be like, great. If I never had

Jason Blitman: 43:57

the bed.

Rumaan Alam: 43:58

if I never had to drive myself anywhere, if I had a driver, imagine having a driver, how dope that would be. They're like, I'm ready to go.

Jason Blitman: 44:04

I know, but

Rumaan Alam: 44:05

I had, I had seven drinks, but you're driving, so whatever, you

Jason Blitman: 44:08

it's that teeny tiny thing. It's the, it's the straightening the mail on Carol's desk. But that, it's just like, you don't even realize that someone else can make that life a little bit easier for you.

Rumaan Alam: 44:19

Yeah, it's wild.

Jason Blitman: 44:20

it's so wild. Congratulations on Entitlement.

Rumaan Alam: 44:25

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 44:26

And the cover is like, out of control.

Rumaan Alam: 44:28

It's, it's a beautiful cover. I mean I didn't make the cover so I'm allowed to say it's beautiful, but Yeah. It's really it's a beautiful

Jason Blitman: 44:33

Did you get like a big print of it or something? I feel like it would make a good piece of

Rumaan Alam: 44:37

I should. Maybe I should. Maybe I should. I don't know. I'll ask, I'll ask Sir Jaffe to buy me one.

Jason Blitman: 44:42

Yes,

Rumaan Alam: 44:43

Yeah

Jason Blitman: 44:44

Thank you for joining me on Gay's Reading. Is there anything that you're reading that you want to shout out about that our listeners should know?

Rumaan Alam: 44:50

You know what I did, I read a really good gay book

Jason Blitman: 44:53

they don't have to be gay books, but we love gay books too.

Rumaan Alam: 44:55

So I have a really good gay book. I know it doesn't have to be a gay book, but it's a gay podcast, so

Jason Blitman: 45:00

Yeah, bring it on.

Rumaan Alam: 45:01

books. The Folded Leaf by William Maxwell. Fucking incredible book. Incredible book about First of all, he's an amazing writer. He was an editor as well, uh, for many years. Really beautiful. Very un showy. books. Very simple, direct, almost soothing to read. Very easy to read. Um, this is a book about like two boys and a girl who are friends in their like youth through sort of like young adulthood. It is so, it is so plainly a queer romance, that is couched in sort of like the conventions of the moment at which he would have been publishing and also the, the period of time being described. But. It's a book that I'm surprised not to hear about more when you hear about the sort of great gay classics. It's a beautiful, beautiful

Jason Blitman: 45:51

Well, and I also just, a quick Google says it came out in 1945.

Rumaan Alam: 45:55

Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a pretty, yeah, it's a pretty, for its moment, a pretty, radically straightforward book that is what it is about, what it is about. It's not unlike when we were talking about Harriet the Spy, right? If you know what it's about, you see

Jason Blitman: 46:09

Yeah.

Rumaan Alam: 46:10

If you don't know what it's about, you can't see it. And so this is a book that is possible not to see it and have a rich experience of reading it. But if you are a gay reader, you're going to read this book. And you're like, wow, this is like a very moving book about being gay in this very particular time in American life. Um, really beautiful book. Highly recommend that one.

Jason Blitman: 46:29

Amazing. Rumaan Alam, thank you so much for being here. Everyone, get your copy of Entitlement, of course, in our bookshop. org link or wherever you get your books. And, what a pleasure.

Rumaan Alam: 46:43

Thank you so much. It was really fun. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 46:45

Listeners today, our guest gay reader, you may know her from her performance in orange is the new Black. You may know her because her name has been dropped on every single episode of Jesse Tyler Ferguson's podcast, but she's yet to be on it. And she is the literal originator of the lesbian U Haul joke, which I cannot wait to talk to her about because that is legendary. No, it is not Leah Deloria, who was seen on New York Living on PIX11 News a few weeks ago, but it is in fact Leah Delaria. Welcome to Gay's Reading. When I found out that you were the originator of the lesbian U Haul joke, I was like, where's the plaque? Where's the statue?

Lea DeLaria: 47:28

I want my residuals. I've heard that joke On so many fucking television shows And in movies And blah blah blah blah blah blah. Where's my fucking residuals? I don't give you keep the fucking plaque got so many lucite plaques. I don't even know where to put them all most of them are in a fucking box in my storage But yeah, give me those residuals. i'm all in for

Jason Blitman: 47:46

But what's so funny? It's not even just used in like acts. It's queer vernacular. It's queer canon.

Lea DeLaria: 47:54

Yeah, that and the, and then I also wrote the companion joke, What does a gay man bring on a second date? What second date? Oh! You didn't know

Jason Blitman: 48:01

I didn't

Lea DeLaria: 48:02

that. one was pretty

Jason Blitman: 48:03

that. Of course

Lea DeLaria: 48:05

Ha!

Jason Blitman: 48:05

Oh my

Lea DeLaria: 48:07

I was literally the first lesbian act in Provincetown. There were no dyke acts before I showed up there in 1982. Sorry, 1984. 1984. 82 is when I got started as a comic in San Francisco But it was like I got there in 84 and it was like every drag queen you'd never heard of in Sharon McKnight That's the only people that were performing there. That was fucking it and I did so I got into a routine. I worked there every summer And I would do music and comedy just like I do now and then in the winter I'd go tour on the West Coast And I would work out the comedy that I was gonna do in Provincetown that summer. It was just, I had a routine. I had it all fuckin worked out. So I did my show in Provincetown that summer. It, that fuckin joke beat me to the West Coast. I had to take it out of my fuckin act. Because everybody knew it already. And then when I did Arsenio, and that was the first openly gay comic on television in America. Got an agent. And got a big tour in Europe. Started at the Edinburgh Festival. Ran in London for a long time. So I took the joke over to there. And that, and then I went to Australia. And I took the joke over to there. And, yeah, now it's just fucking, everybody knows this fucking Thank God for Wikipedia. Because Wikipedia says, written by Leah Delaria,

Jason Blitman: 49:29

Yeah. But that, I was like if anyone takes away anything from this conversation, it is we need to spread the word that is like a hilarious joke and everyone should give her a nickel because every time we say it. Okay. Leah, you're here on GAYS reading. What are you reading?

Lea DeLaria: 49:44

I started doing this during the pandemic, and I've been continuing to do it. I'm going back and reading some, I love fiction, so I've been going back and reading a lot of classic fiction. Yeah. For example, I started with Breakfast of Champions. I'm a huge Kurt Vonnegut fan. And then after that, I'm also a science fiction fan. So I went right I went

Jason Blitman: 50:04

Fahrenheit 451. Oh, Orwell. Huh.

Lea DeLaria: 50:07

1984.

Jason Blitman: 50:08

How could you read that right now? How could you read 1984 right now?

Lea DeLaria: 50:12

now? I read 1980 I read it maybe a year ago. Yeah but, It was, it's just frightening when you read it. It's frightening to think how close we are to 1984. And The Handmaid's Tale, which is another one that I just absolutely adore. These guys aren't fucking around. They want to take us to 1984 in The Handmaid's Tale. So it's best that we be familiar with the situation, don't you think? Ha! And then, Shirley Jackson, Haunting of Hull House I was just reading classic, sort of stuff and now we all have goals in our life. Some people say they want to watch a ball game at every baseball major league stadium in America. Which sounds wicked cool to me, by the way. I would be down to do that. My thing is I'm collecting Shakespeare clowns. I want to play all the clowns that I can in all the Shakespeare plays. So I have recently, I've actually just started reading Hamlet because I'm very desperate to play and have been desperate to play the gravedigger for a very long time. Call Jordan and Heidi. Honey, when Liev Schreiber did it, I was, that's when I was starting my collecting them, when I went, I want to play, I went, please cast me in Cigarette Digger. He was like, Leah, you don't want to sit around for three hours. You don't want to sit around for three hours, come out and do a five minute scene. Why would you want to do that? And I went, because I want to do

Jason Blitman: 51:32

But also, that's the dream. You still get paid full rate.

Lea DeLaria: 51:35

Are you fucking kidding? I don't even come in until the third act Debbie's sitting around in my dressing room going god. They're not even they're not even to england yet. It's I have been reading some shakespeare. I'm currently reading hamlet. I just finished romeo and juliet because I was up for the nurse and I didn't get it. I'm just that's another part that come on. I come on Cast me as a fucking nurse Cast me as a fucking nurse

Jason Blitman: 51:58

You know what? I want to see the Lea Delaria play about the nurse. That's

Lea DeLaria: 52:04

Oh, that's a good idea. Ooh, that's a good idea. you're welcome. Thank you, that's such a good idea. I just did Miss Fellows in Night of the Iguana, which is again Lately, they've been doing Allowing me to act if you know what I mean, like I'm playing roles that it's not oh we're gonna cast the dyke in a dyke role We're gonna just they're allowing me to act and Austin Pendleton, is going to be doing Camino, Camino Real And he's asked me to play Gypsy, which I'm very excited about. And he's going to be directing, which I'm also very excited about. And Austin is one of the reasons I did Night of the Iguana, because he played Grandfather. He was one of the names that was like, I'm not going to say no to this. But it was really nice, because Emily Mann, who's a brilliant director. Jason, you must know Emily. Brilliant director. And She, I was in Midsummer Night's Dream and played bottom. With her at the McCarter Theater. So that was one of my first cons that I got. And so she called me up and wanted me to, she was like, do you want to, are you, I was like, kidding. You're offering me Miss Fellows? Because Everybody else always plays this character very differently than me. Cause Mr. Shannon calls her a dyke and a butch and a diesel. He refers to her in all these ways. But they play it that he's just doing that to piss her off. And she's not really a dyke or a lesbian or a diesel. But Emily was like, I think it would be interesting if she actually was.

Jason Blitman: 53:30

A

Lea DeLaria: 53:30

You know what I mean? And I said, me too, let's go for it. She's a great comedic role too. She's comic relief in this play, which, which needs comic relief. It's one of his, yeah, it's one of his. It's a, yeah, hard to believe by that author, but, it's a bit of a downer. And like from the moment I made my entrance, to the moment I made my exit. They were laughing and laughing and then there's that, there was this one, one big heavy moment where it just turns on a dime and that's where I get, I'm allowed to do real acting. So I was allowed to just turn that shit on a dime and have the whole audience go, gasp when the thing happens that no one is expecting to happen.

Jason Blitman: 54:13

It's so crazy to hear you say all of this because, people see you and they're like, Oh, comedian, stand up, the orange is the new black, big boo. That's they pigeonhole you But you just rattled off the fact that you're reading a ton of classic novels, which not a lot of people have the patience for. You're reading as much of the Shakespeare canon as you can get your hands on, which even less people have patience for It's true. And you're talking about capital A acting here. You're, I'm obsessed. The theater queen nerd that you are.

Lea DeLaria: 54:44

I've become a little obsessed with capital A acting recently. The one thing that Orange was able to provide me was an in to that world where I do receive respect from people that I respect, which is amazing. After the strike last year, They're, things slowed down, but I've made five movies this year, and I'm making one more, and in all of these, and one is an AFI short that kind of blew me away when I read the script, so I'm really very excited about this short. I know they're going to be working and editing on this. It's called Old Dykes, and I like it because it is, I am an old dyke and it is who we are and we talk about the things that we talk about and and it's a it's very poignant and in this particular one I had a day of shooting a full day of shooting where I had to like ugly cry Not just cry ugly cry For hours Because of all the setups Oh my God. I know. And I immediately texted my favorite dike actor, Cynthia Nixon, and I said this is a first for me. I've never had to do this before. And I'm explaining to her what I'm doing, and she went, oh, Leah, I've never had to do that. I could never do it. I was like, luck. Oh, honey, yes, Cynthia Fucking Nixon. You would cry on camera for hours and not even think about it. I know you could. I'm not even gonna have, have this conversation, but that, people are asking me even with Orange, that speech about, I refuse to be invisible, that was like written for me. And it, and Lauren Morelli, who wrote that whole piece of Boo's background, when I got that script, I actually called her. And I didn't text, because I'm a boomer. I called her, and I said, Honey, I just have to tell you, it's like you read my diaries. Everything that I've ever experienced in my life, because, honestly, butchers have a shared experience. Everything that I experienced in my life is in this script. And that speech about, I refuse to be invisible, is, just exactly the way I've felt my whole entire life. Maybe it made it easier for me to instill life and meaning into it, but, it was a beautiful, it was beautifully written. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 57:04

And you have said, don't judge a butch by its cover. And being on gaze reading, of course, we also don't judge a book by its cover. But again, you strip away the preconceived notions of Lea Delaria. Let's talk about your freaking 54 Below show.

Lea DeLaria: 57:23

I know, I'm so excited about it. It's been so much fun. And every fucking month, it's, just, you have to come. You have to come. First of all, the concept was like right away for me. Brunch is gay. I've been wanting to do a brunch show in New York. A Sunday brunch show. There's nothing there. Brunch is gay. That's it. That's it. And I've got merchandise. I've got coffee cups. I've got all the, t shirts, brunch is gay. We even have beer koozies and they say beer is gay. So we like, yeah. But the idea is, and I know this is a lot of my friends are like, why are you making yourself work so hard? It's not that much work. It really isn't.

Jason Blitman: 57:57

god. Once a month. Fine.

Lea DeLaria: 58:02

are like, why are you making yourself work as hard? I don't do the same show every month. I have a different guest every month We have a different theme every month and the guest and I work on what the music will be around whatever the theme is. Like the last one was with Gabriel Ebert who won the Tony for Matilda, public theater guy, just did Tom and Sally at the Public. And big friend of Harvey's because he did gabe is He's a capital A for Ally in our community, and he's one of my dearest and closest friends. And he's very multi talented. So our show was Cole Porter, because he loves Cole Porter. So that was the first time we did an entire show of just like that. Whereas the show before Gabe was called Just Swingin So my guest was Janice Siegel from the Manhattan Transfer. She has nine nine Grammy Awards. She's the one who sang Girl from New York City. I'm sure there's a lot of old queens who listen to this. They know who Janice is. And Janice guests with me on my David Bowie record. We sing Suffragette City together. I'm on her next album's coming out very soon. And we're doing a duet of Down for Double, which is really fun. So we had Janice Siegel for that. June was our big gay pride show. So I had Bitch. Who is a dyke, phenomenal dyke musician. She's been touring the world recently opening for the indigo girls everywhere. And yeah, so we did our big gay pride show and I did I did YMCA, you know what I mean? Just stuff like that.

Jason Blitman: 59:32

This episode will come out a couple weeks before the Jackie Hoffman

Lea DeLaria: 59:36

Oh. so jackie hoffman is the one that's coming up. Yes. Then i'm gonna say this you guys missed me and lily cooper Doing the themes 52 girls. So it's all songs that have women in the titles And yeah, We did Valerie and Mambo number five and all that kind of stuff together. Jackie Hoffman and I are doing a Halloween show. Oh, yeah. And the guests, what's great about the guests is I do two duets with the guests. The guests have their big solo moment on stage together. And then we talk. And whatever comes out of our mouth comes out of our mouth. And Jackie's been I've done Jackie's shows with her and she's done my shows with me

Jason Blitman: 1:00:14

If no one has seen the Jackie Hoffman show. I saw her do her Hanukkah show at Joe's Pub and I saw her do her 54 below show.

Lea DeLaria: 1:00:21

All I do is laugh. I can't get a word in. We edgewise me when Jackie Hoffman is on stage because I can't even imagine I can't believe the shit that comes out of her mouth, and I just burst into fucking laughter. One of my favorite things about Jackie is when she was nominated for the Emmy for Feud, which she was brilliant in, they said to her, what are you going to do? And she told every single news agency that she spoke to. They were like, what are you going to do if you win? And she said, I guess I'll go up on stage and get an Emmy. What are you going to do if you lose? She goes I'm going to slap the thing in front of me and go, damn it. She's So when she lost, she did that. And then everybody started giving her shit about it. I was like, she literally told every, we watched her on the red carpet, tell every news agency that's what she's gonna do. But also, that's the joke. That's the fucking joke. She's a fucking stand up comic. You know what I

Jason Blitman: 1:01:14

Ay yi. Oh my god, that's so funny. So people are probably like, wait a minute, Lea DeLaria, all one word, how, what is she doing performing at 54 Below? And it's y'all, her dad was a jazz pianist. Standing center stage, belting a D is what gives her life.

Lea DeLaria: 1:01:30

D sharp. Much higher than C.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:33

I stand corrected. Which is hilarious because I was also just gonna mention that I loved watching your conversation with Mark Summers because when he talks about seeing Bette Midler in Fiddler on the Roof, you dive right in to be like, she played Zeidl.

Lea DeLaria: 1:01:46

I was

Jason Blitman: 1:01:48

was like, Lea Delaria, Broadway historian! Where did all this come from?

Lea DeLaria: 1:01:53

Oh, please, I was a fucking little kid in the midwest and you know My mother was a dancer. My father was a piano player we were encouraged to be artistic. None of my siblings really were into It was just me And they encouraged me my mom I like my kid my siblings wanted to go out and play in the summer. I wanted to watch old betty davis movies and my mom would love my mom was like, I love betty davis. So there we would be Do you know what? And I was very encouraged to get into music, but it was in high school that I discovered theater like a lot of kids in the midwest

Jason Blitman: 1:02:22

Did you do your high school musicals?

Lea DeLaria: 1:02:24

Yeah, and I also I was always a ham. I was always performing I was always doing stuff like that always. Even in grade school. I did a lot of that as well But you know when you get That in the high school, there was like, you go to, you have a drama club, you have a group of friends that are all friends and outcasts mostly and outsiders and a lot of queers, I always make a joke about How I speak at universities and high schools a lot now, and they have like gay straight alliances, like they have clubs for gay people. We had a club for lesbians when I went to high school, it was called P. E. It was one of my jokes. And, but we were in drama club together, so we would be like the Tony night. Right there. Whatever the latest musical was, I remember when Chicago came out, it was one of the first shows that I actually got to See, because it went on tour, and I grew up near St. Louis, and it was at the Muny Opera, and I got to see it, and I remember when it came out crying, because I knew I was too young. to go to New York and get that part of Mama Morton, that part that I always felt I wanted. And then, right after I did On the Town, I went right into the National Tour of Chicago and for nine months played Mama Morton. So it was

Jason Blitman: 1:03:37

Have you ever done it on Broadway?

Lea DeLaria: 1:03:39

No. Maybe someone should write them and ask Weisslers, Weisslers, what the fuck is up with that? I'm gonna tell them to play. Oh, please, we've, they've literally offered, given it to everybody but me.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:50

is what I'm saying.

Lea DeLaria: 1:03:51

I was, it is insane, right? Not, yeah. Now they're having drag queens do it. It's like I, I say have all the drag queens do it, but why not have the dyke do it? since the role she's called again, Butch and Dyke by Billy Flynn. And when I played her, that's how I played her. Marsha wore like heels. The original Mama

Jason Blitman: 1:04:12

Yeah.

Lea DeLaria: 1:04:12

wore. Shit kicking boots. Is Mama Wharton.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:16

You'd be a great Billy Flynn.

Lea DeLaria: 1:04:17

Oh, we have had that conversation a couple times, and I would do that in a flat ass second if they'd let me. You know me I've been gender bending on Broadway for a minute now. Let me crack my knuckles, Yeah, put on my boots.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:30

Leah Delaria, all one word, you're a delight. Thank you for being on

Lea DeLaria: 1:04:34

thank you so much for having me.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:35

And I'm obsessed that you're like, such a reader.

Lea DeLaria: 1:04:38

Oh yeah, I read. I do enjoy a good read. That's why, honestly, I'm with my fiance now because she, I, when someone set us up on a blind date, I looked at her Instagram. And one of the things it said on her Instagram is that she reads like she's an avid reader and she does, but she only reads horror. Oh. She, oh, I don't care.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:59

She reads! There are books on the shelf.

Lea DeLaria: 1:05:01

She's fucking reading like a person.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:03

I'm obsessed with that. This is partly why I'm doing this series, and I've been telling this to everyone I've talked to, because When I started talking about books I was reading, Everyone around me started talking about books they were reading. And I was like, wait a minute, why have we never talked about books before?

Lea DeLaria: 1:05:15

I know. I'm actually going to start doing, now I think, because I've done, revisited those classes, I'm going to start looking at queer classics. I want to read Faggot. And I want to read Oranges Are Not the, Not the Only Fruit. Just kind of stuff. I want to go back and reread some of that stuff. Yeah. Just to familiarize myself with, you I always loved that line in Faggot that Larry Kramer had, there are now more fags than there are Jews in New York City. Like the very, the opening of Faggot. That's the first line. Where he lists, that's like he lists how many fags there are in each borough and area of New York. And it goes on for like almost an entire page. And then you turn the page and the very first sentence on the next page is, there are now more fags than Jews in New York City. That's

Jason Blitman: 1:06:01

a brilliant man.

Lea DeLaria: 1:06:02

I love him.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:03

Crazy. Oh my god. Yes. Good for you. Good for you for reading that canon. Good for the fiancé for reading books. Have a fantastic rest of your day. I can't wait to see you play all the clowns.

Lea DeLaria: 1:06:13

You and me both. I hope they let me do it before I die.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:16

We're gonna make it happen.

Lea DeLaria: 1:06:17

We're gonna make that bitch happen.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:19

And everyone go see Brunch is Gay at 54 Below. The link will be in the show notes and I'm hoping to catch it in November.

Lea DeLaria: 1:06:26

of every month. Second Sunday of every month, different show, different guest,

1:06:31

Thank you so much to remind and Leah again, next week. One of the most banned authors. The so excited to have them here. And our guests gay reader is a friend of mine and a former guest of gaze reading. So excited to welcome this person back. If you liked them, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You'll be the first to know when the episode drops. So make sure to do that. And I will see you next week. Bye