0:04

Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Hello, and welcome to gaze reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. Welcome back to those who have been here and very happy to have you. If you are new. We are also over on YouTube, the link to our YouTube channel. You could find both in the show notes and the link tree on our Instagram profile. Follow what's on Instagram@gaysreading, we have a new giveaway on Instagram every single week. So make sure to check that out. And if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Give us a five star review. If you can. Uh, it helps make it so much easier for other book lovers to find the podcast. this is the beginning of LGBTQ history month. I cannot believe it is already October crazy. and last week was banned books week. And so to celebrate, I am so excited that our guest today is George M. Johnson. The author of all boys, aren't blue. One of the most banned books in the country, George is one of the most banned authors in the country. And they are here to talk to us about their brand new book, flamboyance. That is. So great. I'm so excited to, share it with you. and today's guest gave reader is the author Rasheed, Newson, friend of mine, good friend of the podcast. And he of course is the author of my government means to kill me. And if you haven't been listening or don't know this. I'm thrilled to share the gays reading as partnering with aardvark book club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the United States can join today and enter the code gaze, reading a checkout to get their first book for$4 and free. Shipping. It's an insane deal already. And the$4, it's like basically a free book. So go use that, go to aardvark book, club.com and use the code days. Reading. What is Aardvark Book club? It is a monthly book subscription. That ships to the United States and Canada. On the first of every month, they drop a five to six new releases for us to every month that's today. Check out what their new releases are this month. Uh, and they have so many different genres from literary fiction to fantasy, to romance. They have new books that people are super busy about. They also have books that maybe weren't on your radar that are super exciting and, and things that you should know about. So make sure to check out aardvark book club. And I got to say, they're a fantastic Instagram follow. Really great content. So go follow them on Instagram too. And all of that said welcome to gaze reading George M. Johnson.

Jason Blitman: 3:05

There's like a gajillion things to talk to you about, but we are here to talk about your new book, Flamboyants the Queer Harlem Renaissance I Wish I'd Known. And, the book is not very long, but I don't know if you can see all of my tabs. There are so many things where I I just underlined something and then would put an exclamation point because I was, it surprised me or, whatever. And to start us off this, which, is maybe a little frustrating and some pressure right now, but this episode is dropping the week after. Banned Book Week and the first week of LGBTQIA History Month. So this is appearing to the people at a very critical time. This is maybe a weird way of phrasing this, but how do you celebrate Banned Book Week?

George M Johnson: 3:56

Right. As one of the most banned authors in the country. It's been just an interesting journey. I've been the chair for BAM Book Week before Time Magazine recognized me for my fight against censorship in the United States, which when I say it out loud, it's like you're fighting against censorship in the United States. As an individual that's so interesting. As an individual and a collective, let me be clear I just think I have a loud mouth. I just, out of attention because I was going to go back. It's been a very interesting journey just as authors around band books. Some of us wear it as a badge of honor. Some of us see it, as a really horrible thing. I think I sit at the crux of that. It's I know it's horrible thing, but I also know that There is a reason that fan books get attention is probably because they have some, a real story to tell that people don't want you to know about. For me, I just celebrate it, as I've been celebrating it. Appreciate the continued fight that so many people have, appreciate the continued healing that the book is doing. And, for me, in my case, The visibility that has come from it has allowed people who didn't know the book existed to be able to find out about the book, read the book, and use the book. In many ways that may not have happened without this. I think it's an unfortunate thing that we are actually banning books and not banning guns. I just want to be very clear about that. Every time I see a mass shooting, especially at a high school where I know my book is probably banned, like in this culture, my book is banned. And it's but you did that before you banned assault rifles, right? Because you said my book was going to be the thing that harmed. students. My book has been the healing force and a driving force for Gen Z and so many others. So I do think it's like a bittersweet moment, but it just reminds me of my continued fight and my continued will to continue to write more stories, because I'm sure this will get banned too. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 5:49

I, it's funny because before I started reading Flamboyants, I wrote to your publicist and just said, would George be cool talking about, All Boys Aren't Blue and Flamboyants, the short answer was yes, and obviously, but then I read Flamboyants, and I was like, oh, they're symbiotic. There's no, you can't talk about Flamboyants without about All Boys Aren't Blue. The first line of the first poem in the book is, you could ban our books, but you can't ban our story.

George M Johnson: 6:17

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 6:18

And Hello, here we are, right? Your book can be taken off whatever shelf they want to take it off of, but it's still written, it's still your story, and they can't take that away from you. So yeah, it's just they're so interconnected. You define the word flamboyant in the book, but I'm curious, when George hears the word flamboyant, what comes to mind? Yeah

George M Johnson: 6:46

Because I'm so used to talking about all boys on blue. I know every question pretty much is gonna be asked about that book. Every now and then I get shocked by a question. I'm like, Oh, no one's ever asked that. But after four years, I'm pretty 99 percent sure of what questions are gonna come with that. But now I'm going into a new thing. So I'm like, asking me about all of these new things. To me, I won. I called like the people from the Harlem Renaissance, like I call them the Flamboyants to me. I look at them as comic fans look at the Avengers. And so in me calling them the Flamboyants, I just think that they were all of these amazing people who had these wonderful superpowers that they shared with the world and gifts and talents that they shared with the world. But they also had trials and tribulations like any other heroes have, right? Superman and kryptonite for many of them, it was. alcohol abuse. It was drug abuse. It was so many other things that stripped them of their gifts and talents, society, racism, homophobia, all of the things. And so I think for me, that's what I look at them as. I look at them as like these heroes who were like this collective group taking on societal change and culture in the world. And so I think that's what I look at when I call them the flamboyant,

Jason Blitman: 7:59

uh Huh, which is a great way of articulating perhaps what the book is about. But let's say five years ago, if someone said to you, flamboyant, What comes to mind for you?

George M Johnson: 8:09

to me, when I think of the word flamboyant, like the first thing I think about is like the color yellow. For some reason I just see like brightness. I just see like light. I always think that as writers, as creatives, like part of our job is to lead people through. Some of the darkest places. And so I feel like anyone who's a flamboyant is like a flame is like a light that understands their purpose, understands their mission and understands that part of what they have to do is to live outside of societal structures and societal boxes so that they can be possibility models for others to know that they can do the same. I think the way that we're constricted by just the isms and phobias. It makes people be contained. And then there are some of us who were like, I can't be contained, almost like a phoenix in a sense. And so those of us who aren't contained, we were like very flamboyant and what we do. And I think it allows other people to space to do the same.

Jason Blitman: 9:05

no, I love that. And I guess for me, I think over the top or larger than life, which is just like another way of saying what you just said, and I don't think I ever even thought about it that way, right? Cannot be contained, is I think a really important way to think about it. You talk about preferring the term inviting in as opposed to coming out. And I think there's something. Related to the box, right? That Flamboyants cannot stay in. There's something about inviting someone to your bigger box.

George M Johnson: 9:38

I feel like the term coming out one, it puts so much pressure on like the individual to have to declare some status to people who may not be deserving of that. It's almost like when you say coming out, it's just but for what reason, right? Am I doing this as a declaration for myself and my own independence or am I doing this for the edification of other people? And I feel like inviting in is okay, I'm doing this in the way that I want to do it. It doesn't have to be this big announcement. It can be, it can't be, but I'm inviting the people in who make me feel safe, who make me feel seen, who appreciate me, who care for me, who provide me safety, who are my friends, who are my lovers, right? And I think In that context, it gives agency back to the actual person who is going through the identity journey. And so I think it's just super important, especially as we're learning new language and we're reframing things for young adults specifically. And I always say for young adults and the inner child of the adults who may have never even fully processed their identity journey. To know it's important that when you invite someone in, you can also kick someone out in a sense. Cause it's this Look at it like that. If you invite someone in and they disrespect your house, you kick them out your house. Whereas coming out seems like I'm coming out to you with the hopes that you let me in your house. And this is about my house.

Jason Blitman: 11:01

you have agency. You can kick someone out if you want.

George M Johnson: 11:04

Exactly. So I think that's why I like to provide that term specifically to, like I said, the young adults and the inner children of all of us because we've never been allowed to look at it from that perspective. We've always been, we've always been made to be the outsiders, the outcasted with the hopes that you'll accept me or acknowledge me. And it's no, I accept myself. I acknowledge myself. And maybe you aren't welcome in my space, which is a total flip on heterosexual communities. about LGBTQ people who oftentimes think we're trying to be fully accepted in. And I'm like not always.

Jason Blitman: 11:38

No, not about

George M Johnson: 11:39

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:40

Yeah. All Boys Aren't Blue, your YA memoir manifesto I, maybe you say this, but what I will say about it is that it is a book that you wish you had as a young person. Flamboyants is a book you wish you had as a young person. Literally, the subtitle implies that I wish I'd known, right? How did, what was the journey from All Boys to Flamboyants?

George M Johnson: 12:04

Yeah. Me and several of my friends, we operate under a Ghanaian principle called Sankofa, which essentially is in order to move forward, we have to look back at our past in a sense. And so it's like we have to acknowledge who came before us, who did the work before us, who may have changed something that allowed me to do something today. I think in writing All Boys Aren't Blue, it was like, Okay, I want to tell, my story from my perspective and everything. But then I came to realize that people were like, this is the first time I felt seen and heard in a book. And I got that over and over again. And I had to then really sit and think why is that right? Because I know that there were other queer people who existed before me and they were authors and they were writers. So why is that? Like, how did that, how did it happen that way? And who is telling their stories now that they're not here? Like We adapt their books and we adapt some of their stories, but who's telling their actual stories of their existence? And how it relates to some of the things that we're still going through today. With many of the things that, we learned about being blueprints that we could still use today in certain fights and struggles. And so I just felt it was important to not just be the, like the hero for a lot of people who have read the book, my book, in this generation, but also restore and reclaim some of the heroes that we should have always been. been able to appreciate for me getting here, right? It's like the book Flamboyants doesn't exist without Elaine Locke's The New Negro, which was written almost 100 years ago and at one point was called the African American Bible, right? This was a very pivotal book that 100 years later should still be a book that we're all reading and should be a book that He's on school and library lists and all of that. And so it's if I can do anything to help ensure that book gets remembered in these people get remembered, I'll do it for this new generation through my lens as at them as the flamboyant because back then, many of them could not be out and could not fully live their lives publicly. And so I think now it's like trying to reclaim and restore stories and narratives that should have always existed.

Jason Blitman: 14:11

Yeah, I mean something you talk about somewhat early on in the book where I, that was one of the moments that I like circled and exclamation pointed was the idea that the names that are always talked about are Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Frederick Douglass, versus the names that while people might have heard of them, they're certainly not in the zeitgeist in the way that those others are, like Lorraine Hansberry, Langston Hughes, James Baldwin. And then when you wrote that. those people are Black and queer, I had this brain explosion moment of oh my god, of course, they were tucked, as a footnote. No I don't want to undermine any of their contributions to art and society, but in terms of the way that people are familiar with them, it is just not the same.

George M Johnson: 14:53

And I think about Martin Luther King. And I think I put this in the book, like, how he was, giving a really major speech and was talking about the greatest philosophers. And he mentions Plato and Socrates and Aristotle. And then he names Du Bois, who we all know. But then he also names Alain Locke, who many of us don't know. And it's but why is that? Why did it take so long for us to know about Yeah. Why is it? You know what I mean? But it's but Martin Luther King knew who these people were and what their identities were, right? And it was some of the people who shaped much of his thought and political thought, right? So I oftentimes think about like how, especially that when Du Bois and Locke, it's just These two people were getting mentioned in every conversation, but only one is one that we all know. And we all have had to read about and all have had to learn about. Whereas Elaine, many of us haven't learned about or read about until the recent book that came out a couple years ago about Elaine. But it's yeah I wanted to start to do that work to restore things, right? It's I think it's cool that County Cullen ended up being James Baldwin's teacher, right? Little things like that.

Jason Blitman: 16:01

There are like, you just brought up two things that I need to pick which lane I want to go in for right this second. So let's stick with the names. So you were, was there anyone, did you go into this with a favorite and leave with a new favorite? Or what did, was there something like that surprised you?

George M Johnson: 16:20

County Cullen is a favorite, just because his story is so complicated and messy. I was like, oh, this was mess I'm like, this would have been like, every gossip website, every Wendy, I was like, this was mess. And it kind of reminded me,

Jason Blitman: 16:36

Yeah.

George M Johnson: 16:39

I'm not gonna say it, but it kind of just reminded me of, I can't say it, kind of like the whole situation that happened in the 90s around Terry McMillan and how Stella got her groove back and Jonathan Plummer, right? And so when I looked at it, I was like, oh, like this has happened before, like in a really prominent way with, Prominent people like, okay, interesting.

Jason Blitman: 17:01

Without giving too much away for our listeners, cause I, they'll, they should read the book, it's wonderful, what, can you, what, can, why don't you explain in like maybe a

George M Johnson: 17:11

Oh, so yeah essentially County Cullen marries W. E. B. Du Bois, his daughter, Yolandi. But most people in the community knew County Cullen was, we'll say, at a minimum, bisexual. Langston Hughes definitely knew, and I'm not gonna, you have to read the book to see what he gave them as a wedding gift. But yes, it ended up becoming a huge controversy because it was It's one of the biggest weddings and most covered events in black America with nearly 3000 people showing up. And so it ended up becoming a very controversial part. And it also opens you up to Du Bois's thoughts around women and the movement. And so it was it created a very interesting situation

Jason Blitman: 17:57

Mmhmm.

George M Johnson: 17:58

because so many people were involved. But yeah, you have to read to get the rest of the story.

Jason Blitman: 18:03

But that's a little nugget of the tabloid fodder.

George M Johnson: 18:06

yes.

Jason Blitman: 18:07

County was a favorite. For me, I left Obsessed with Gladys Bentley.

George M Johnson: 18:12

Yes. Her story to me, I'm not gonna say it bothered me. It was just so complicated. I was blown away at the complication. of Gladys's story. And Was like, Oh, this is like a person this is a, this is an Oscar winning role for someone like,

Jason Blitman: 18:30

Yes! I'm sure, I think I wrote, I want to see this movie!

George M Johnson: 18:34

I was like, Oh, that's a very interesting life. I also think, and I don't want to get it incorrect, but I think it was Bruce Nugent, who also married a woman late in life. but had no sexual attraction. But it was like there was so much of these things, and it made me just wonder, were they doing these things out of protection, out of safety, out of community accepted? There's so much even with telling some of the story, there's still so much to be told. And I wish in many ways we would have chronicled many of them better. So that we knew and got more of what was happening, for real, what was happening in their lives and everything. But yeah, beautifully complicated stories is what I was, is what I came out of it with just some beautifully complicated stories that people probably would not imagine. Even Zora Neale Hurston, The foreshadowing of her demise. Like I just oftentimes like reading about all of that was like this is actually wild because these people to us today are like icons and giants, right? And it makes me think about Rosa Parks when you know, everybody knows Rosa Parks, right? But it was like she was poor. But the way visibility doesn't always match wealth. Especially when it comes to people who are, minorities and black folk, who are just trying to lead, civil rights fights and things and learned about Martin Luther King and this is like all of that type of history. Aretha Franklin paying payrolls to keep the movement going, right? Like it because these people are just these big people. So there's just gotta be money coming in because we live in a political environment where activists can be millionaires and

Jason Blitman: 20:14

Sure.

George M Johnson: 20:15

You could run for president and 500 million be donated in four weeks to you for a campaign, right? And so we live in times where, when we see visibility, we automatically just assume wealth is attached to it because you can write books and get deals and get podcasts and get all these things and TV shows and talk shows. But they live in a time where they had all of that same type of visibility, but it didn't necessarily match.

Jason Blitman: 20:39

It didn't co It didn't come with

George M Johnson: 20:40

It didn't come with anything right. It came with a lot of heartache and a lot of pain, a lot of struggle if anything. And so I thought the justice,

Jason Blitman: 20:49

it didn't come with anything that a modern person would think of as exciting or impor elevating.

George M Johnson: 20:55

It's who would know? Bessie Smith ran out of money. Like how would we know? All we see is what we see. And that she at one time was the most paid entertainer in the country. And that's all we knew. And then we get, which I talk about in the book, how black first, First black woman to do this. First black person to do this. First. So

Jason Blitman: 21:12

my list of things

George M Johnson: 21:13

those idols. And so we just assumed that their lives were fine because they were breaking so many barriers. But those barriers weren't coming with income a lot of time or shelter or safety or anything

Jason Blitman: 21:25

Yeah. You talk about black first and I, and again, another one of those moments of circling with an exclamation point and, oh, the first black person to blank is even, as a cis white man, things I've heard of or learned of and we don't hear of or learn of the second person or the third person or the other people that are making impact. on society or not. They just happen to be the second or third person who did whatever that thing is that we're just that, that quote unquote doesn't matter anymore

George M Johnson: 21:57

doesn't happen. Holly Berry

Jason Blitman: 21:59

happen.

George M Johnson: 21:59

is still the only black woman to win an Oscar for lead actress. Or it just never happens again and or it doesn't happen for 50 or 60, right? So it's get a ceiling break, did it, and then that's why I said in doing the research and seeing that the first that were breaking barriers were in the twenties. And then you do the research afterwards and you're like, this never happened again for 60 years. It's never happened to get. So did they actually break anything? It was just very interesting,

Jason Blitman: 22:28

There's also something sightedness of our like memory as a society because I think that's part of why we move backwards in so many ways, right? It's we don't remember that these things we're fighting for have happened already. Or to some, sometimes, to some degree, right? People were so queer 200 years ago, and it was not a problem.

George M Johnson: 22:51

And I think thousands of years ago, you can look at just. In other civilizations where queerness clearly existed and clearly is represented in statues and in paintings and in books and writings that are thousands of years old and then all of a sudden it became an issue. And we could talk about that for hours. At some point, it became an issue and

Jason Blitman: 23:12

All right, going down a different path, you were talking about Bessie and Ma Rainey helped shape who she was. And it got me thinking about these people, you talk about, it seemed as though everyone, all of these artists in the Harlem Renaissance ran in the same circles. Who, if there was a conversation between two of these people, who would you want to be a fly on the wall for?

George M Johnson: 23:34

probably definitely Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston. They just seem to be the, Zora just had, she just was not going to bite her tongue. And Langston Hughes to me just seemed very involved in everything. So I just think the two of them talking together,

Jason Blitman: 23:48

You'll get the best

George M Johnson: 23:49

were just the best. of what they were feeling, how everybody else was feeling because they just seemed to be enthralled in all the things.

Jason Blitman: 23:57

Yeah. So with all of this research, and throughout the book, what's, something great about the book is, I think I was anticipating Each chapter, which, addresses an individual figure. I think I was expecting it to be biography after biography, and it's not. You really insert yourself into this journey, and it's George learning about these humans and really putting yourself within the context. Was there something that surprised you? Yeah,

George M Johnson: 24:28

Learning about or just surprise?

Jason Blitman: 24:30

sort of any of it, right? Because you were you're so embedded into this journey, so whether something you learned about someone or how you related to someone in a way that you didn't think you were going, or whatever, it could be anything.

George M Johnson: 24:42

yeah. To be honest, the book was just hard to write. Because I think at first in my mind it was more biographical and we went through. that iteration of it. Then I went through a different iteration, right? And then third person. And then I went through a iteration, right? And then it just went through many versions of trying to figure out how to tell these stories and it not just be, like you said, a biographical nonfiction type of work. I always knew I wanted it to be illustrated. So that part, and it was like, I could see the images in my head. I was like, I just gotta find somebody that can get what's out of my head onto paper. And Charlie is just amazing. He did the book cover for All Boys Are In Blue. And ever since then, years ago, he wanted to work again on something. And, I was grateful that idea came about because it just seemed like the perfect melding of all the worlds. And so I do think like for me, like the most interesting part was like at first it was more biographical. But then I think as I started writing it, the book just started to feel like the Harlem Renaissance itself. It was like you had the artwork, which is very, alluding to that time. You had the essays, which, we had so many great essayists and then the poetry. And then Once I got going, I was like, Oh, this is it's my version of the Harlem Renaissance. This is not just about the Harlem Renaissance. This is connecting renaissances together because many people feel like we're in a current renaissance of queerness. Um, And so it felt like connecting two periods almost a hundred years later of, Re of the Renaissance while also being a foreshadow of what can happen during these times if we don't really stick together and really understand what happened to all of them. And I do think that one of the hardest things for me to process was tragic some of their lives ended. So that was the most surprising thing for me, was the amount of tragedy. I just wasn't fully prepared for it, and I probably should have been, but I wasn't. And so some of it hit me really hard. Just reading about, the dying and being buried in unmarked graves. Something about that still just is so eerie and sad, that some of these pioneers, didn't even get headstones, for years later until someone discovered them or found them, and of course, yeah, it's, yeah, that, that was like what hit me the hardest was like some of them had really tragic lives.

Jason Blitman: 27:05

Yeah. And then the interconnectedness to some people in contemporary pop culture that, I, again, I don't want to give anything away, I want people to read the book, but, again, things where you're just like, wait, you did what? Oh, okay. Mm. Tragic, but I think some of it is because Harlem Renaissance, it sounds glamorous. It sounds artistic. It sounds, very positive. And to really unpack the nitty gritty of it all, it's oh wait, these are also people.

George M Johnson: 27:34

and it's been sold to be that, right? And in many ways, if you read the, like when you read the book, you realize that was also a struggle that they had as the people. leading the renaissance, which was do we talk about the poor communities in Harlem and the struggles of our community? Or do we only talk about the opulence? Do we only talk about the more masculine side of queerness? Do we only talk about and they battled over? Do we tell the full story or do we just give a picture of hope and optimism as the driving force for a community to find its way out of this, right? And it was also that, Justification that was happening between them as the people telling the story.

Jason Blitman: 28:23

Do you think that there's a universe where that can be among the reasons why we don't know some of these stories? Because they didn't want them told?

George M Johnson: 28:35

I think it was like, there's a, there was like, almost I wrote an essay many years ago. That was called like fighting my state and fighting my home, and it was just basically

Jason Blitman: 28:46

Oh, interesting.

George M Johnson: 28:47

about how as a black queer person, there are times where I'm having to fight the homophobia so hard in my own community that even if I win this fight, I only inch up to the fight of the white supremacy that is also abundant. So it's like I'm in a double fight, right? And so that's what, to me, it alluded to a lot of, which was there was already a suppression because Black community didn't want to be viewed as a certain way and all of that. But then within that oppression, you had a bigger looming oppression that was outside of it that also just didn't want Black people, period. No matter what your gender identity was, whatever, to have rights. To have wealth to have anything right. So it was like, that's like the double edged sword. So it's then it's like they already suppressing just the black story. And then there's a double edged sword when it comes to the black queer story, because it even if it makes it out of community to be part of the fabric, it still may never make it past other forces that be that are black blocking blacks, all black stories and all black narratives. Right?

Jason Blitman: 29:56

So it's almost less about not wanting the stories to be told so much as knowing that they never will be anyway and

George M Johnson: 30:03

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:04

Giving into that.

George M Johnson: 30:05

Yeah. And it reminded me of the slave narratives. There aren't many of them, but there are some and how they had to write on the pseudonyms. And even with the writing on the pseudonyms, some of the owners still were able to tell that they were talking about who it was that they were talking about and tried to catch them like again in the north, right? So it just was a suppression of the story at all time. And those that made out like your Josephine Baker is like you're at the war is those whose story did make it out. Still only made it out if we leave out the queer part as much as possible We could keep all the other act like cuz I've learned about Langston Hughes as a kid like And it wasn't until my 20s when I even started to see like articles and things pop up about he was potentially queer. And then as more stories got told of Zora and like we started uncovering more stuff, then it was like, oh, they all were like, okay this is interesting because we learned about these people for a very long time, but we were definitely kept away. James Baldwin. As a kid, they never once mentioned that man was gay. As a teen, he was never mentioned as gay. Like we knew that the great, writer and essayist and this and that and, but we never knew that. They always left that part out of the story and that's the lens that they lived in, so it's important to know that part.

Jason Blitman: 31:20

You go on to say that the Harlem Renaissance was one of the queerest historical periods. Why is that?

George M Johnson: 31:28

I feel like, one because we don't have a whole lot of writing or other historical periods that talk about awareness. And so it's actually hard

Jason Blitman: 31:38

So it's like densely populated?

George M Johnson: 31:39

like the most densely populated period you all can look back to, right? Because even when you think about Stonewall, like Stonewall is still just like a slipshot in time because it was a five day riot, right? So it's like

Jason Blitman: 31:52

It wasn't like a whole time

George M Johnson: 31:53

time period, right? And eventually we'll get to get there and do the work of digging up that time period. And MacArthur, MacArthurism was happening. So it was a huge anti queer, right?

Jason Blitman: 32:06

hmm.

George M Johnson: 32:07

The country at the time. So a lot of the history just didn't get, just didn't get put down and didn't get written. But I just feel like maybe because of my views on queerness are not just in identity that I feel like the Harlem Renaissance is one of the queers periods because I feel like queerness is just. A term to say not part of the norm, right? If it's not part of the norm, then it's queer. And I think everything that they were doing, from the arts to the poetry to the essays to the anthropology work to It was opening us up to the world of all of the facets of Black community. And yeah, and like all of the arts and all of these things that were often suppressed. This was a period where it got out,

Jason Blitman: 32:51

In talking about the Flamboyants and the term flamboyant, and again, the symbiosis of All Boys Aren't Blue with this, it feels like even if it wasn't queer, even if someone wasn't queer, there's like queer coding because to be flamboyant is, inherently queer, whether you're queer or not, right? So to be this larger than life figure is just queer, whether, no matter who you're sleeping

George M Johnson: 33:17

Cause it's just not what people thought were the norm, right? You were queer or not, people didn't think Bessie Smith should be wearing gold and dripped in the way she was dripped, right? Like she still stood out among. people. So she still was in the way that you could view queerness outside of just identity. Very different. And all of these figures were very different.

Jason Blitman: 33:40

Yeah. Talking about different figures, talking about who we do and don't talk about and the stories that do and don't come up you, in this book go on to say for every celebrity we know of, there are so many people whose contributions were crucial that we don't know of. And then you go on to talk about Nanny, who is a big figure, obviously, in All Boys Aren't Blue and comes up many times in Flamboyants. So first I just want to say, thank you for sharing her with us because I think anyone who has read the book falls in love with her and, if there was a nanny guide to life, it would, I probably help solve some problems in the world right

George M Johnson: 34:19

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:20

Is there. Is there something that you'd want to say about her that our listeners should know of, should know about, who have, who perhaps haven't read your books yet?

George M Johnson: 34:27

What would I say?

Jason Blitman: 34:29

Why don't you just tell them who she

George M Johnson: 34:30

Yeah. So Nanny's my grandmother. She passed away a few years ago, but she was pretty much the center of like our universe. Southern black woman from South Carolina, moved to Jersey when she was a young girl. She was the baby of the family, even though she ended up being the matriarch to all of her older siblings because she just was that person in control of the family. But everybody, loved her, but she was someone who just didn't believe in like the constructs of life. She, as little black kids, she made sure that we traveled and she made sure her kids traveled to see the world and understand, that there's more than just the community that you grow up in. One of the best cooks I've ever known. A caregiver, raised foster kids really protected, LGBTQ kids too. She was very adamant. She was a church going in person and she just often used to say I can't understand how people in the church get it so messed up when it comes to LGBTQ people. If it's used to say if God is love, then how are y'all making all these other rules after that? You're like, I'm missing something. There's some other rules that y'all are finding in this book that I'm not finding. And just very community based, very community oriented. And I think because of her and how many people she helped raise and take care of it gave many of us a chance. Like that understanding of that. We all have a duty to not just help ourselves. It's not only just help our families, but at times some of us got to step out and even do more and help our communities. And all of them were great storytellers. And so I think I'm grateful that I get to be the person who's telling at least a piece of this story and giving it to the world.

Jason Blitman: 36:07

Yeah. And like I said before, thank you for that. If she's

George M Johnson: 36:10

Of course,

Jason Blitman: 36:11

Was very happy to have learned about her and to get inspired by her. So, speaking of being the storyteller for the family, you were, are a math whiz, loved learning. And do you still use any of that at all

George M Johnson: 36:28

sometimes

Jason Blitman: 36:29

to do your taxes?

George M Johnson: 36:30

I'm like sometimes it helps.

Jason Blitman: 36:31

Just so funny, so many artists are like, math doesn't come easy for them, learning in general doesn't always come easy for people, so for you to be like,

George M Johnson: 36:39

Which I know I was like, and it's funny because people say it all the time. They know I was a math whiz and they were like, that's just so funny. You're a creative because And I feel like someone said that means you use both sides. I think my uncle was like, that literally means you are able to use both sides of your brain, like fully functionally, because they're like writing, I think is on one side, math and stuff is on one side or something. And somebody was breaking it down to me. That's actually pretty amazing that you are that good at math. Like I used to be a chief financial officer. Like I used to do book, like reconciliation I used to run audit for college. Like I, I was really a numbers person, like really good at numbers and was also a creative like that. Always had these thoughts and these visions and all of these dreams. And it is interesting, but I think it helps because sometimes I look at, even when I'm making a book, sometimes it's I look at it as math and science,

Jason Blitman: 37:30

How

George M Johnson: 37:30

it's not all just art, right? Like for me, it's about how many words are on this line. And how many. Spaces are in between this, like what the page counts look like, what the setup of the book looks like. I'm very analytical. I think that part of my brain when it comes to that, because I'm like, this has to be eye catching. This has to be different. And it was interesting because I got the reader copy

Jason Blitman: 37:58

Huh.

George M Johnson: 37:59

and I was like, huh, okay. All

Jason Blitman: 38:02

I know, I'm looking forward to getting a finished

George M Johnson: 38:04

Yeah, I was a little nervous because I was like, this is not like my brain has to feel it. And I was like it's beautiful. But I was like, I'm not, I don't know. I need to

Jason Blitman: 38:15

It's beautiful, it just isn't

George M Johnson: 38:17

where I needed it to be. But then I got the finished copy the other day and it is so beautiful. So I was like, okay. And looking at, I was like, oh yes, this is what was in my brain for all these years, finally out in the world. Like I, it's hardbound copies are so beautiful. So

Jason Blitman: 38:33

Amazing.

George M Johnson: 38:34

but like I said, I think a lot of analytical went into like that, even choosing which had to be the cover, like art, so

Jason Blitman: 38:42

Which is gorgeous. other rabbit hole you threw me down while reading this. I listened to so much music reading this book. Music is just peppered throughout, pulses throughout the whole book. I talked about Gladys Bentley firstly because her story in general, it's just So fascinating. But then I listened to her play the piano. Out of control. Do you have a playlist? Are you making a playlist? Can you make a playlist? The people want to hear the music, George. Oh.

George M Johnson: 39:15

we're working on some things. What I can say is the audio book does

Jason Blitman: 39:20

Fun. Yeah.

George M Johnson: 39:24

It's all in there. It sounds it's interesting because I heard the audio book the other day. It sounds like a a spoken word album. So it does have music from the artists themselves. And it's awesome. It's all. It's not like just one or two. It's all the way like it's all throughout it, like to intro chapters underneath certain poems that I'm reading. You hear it like it's

Jason Blitman: 39:43

I did say it feels like music is pulsing through the whole thing, so the fact that's literally what's happening

George M Johnson: 39:47

it was my request because I was like, I want a Grammy. I am very big on, I am very big on getting an EGOT. So I was like,

Jason Blitman: 39:54

We're gonna manifest!

George M Johnson: 39:56

that this book gets nominated for best spoken word album next year. And we're going to get a Grammy. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:05

The book is so gorgeous, and I, like I said, I learned so many things. Which was the intention. But just such a special book. Wait, why did I tab this one? Did I want to, did I want to talk to you about something? Oh, no just more about GLaDOS. I was like, what did you can see, I literally, it's an exclamation mark. Oh my God. Something that we haven't talked about, but for our listeners both George and I are going to be at Pride on the Page in Palm Springs on October 20th. So if you are in town, we won't be in conversation with each other, but we will both be at the event if you find yourself in Palm Springs on October 20th. Thank you for joining me here on Gaze Reading.

40:53

you, this was fun.

Jason Blitman: 40:54

I'm so glad I,

40:55

Thank you. See you soon

Jason Blitman: 40:56

Oh, love that we have our different drinks tonight, or today. You have your pink Gatorade and I have my seasonal Kombucha.

Rasheed Newson: 41:02

make it yourself? Do you make it at home?

Jason Blitman: 41:04

Absolutely not. No, I can't do that. I can't imagine having the living starter and then are you a kombucha fan?

Rasheed Newson: 41:11

No.

Jason Blitman: 41:12

Okay. That doesn't surprise

Rasheed Newson: 41:14

that might be, look, maybe I just haven't been exposed to the right cam. Maybe I haven't met the right cambucha.

Jason Blitman: 41:19

I don't know. It's I think it's a love it or hate it sort of thing. I don't think people, it's like not a thing that I know anyone who has gotten used to it.

Rasheed Newson: 41:26

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 41:26

Anyway, GT's has their fall flavor that they come out with every year and it's called Living in Gratitude. And it's it's the pumpkin spice latte. of kombucha.

Rasheed Newson: 41:38

I was like, what does living in gratitude taste like?

Jason Blitman: 41:40

so the flavors are apple, turmeric, carrot, and spices. So it's just very fall cozy with the acidity.

Rasheed Newson: 41:48

I would, and I'm sure, maybe they're still there. There used to be this restaurant in LA where it was like you say, I'll, you say, I'll have the, I am grateful. I'll have the, I am reflecting. Like it was, and I was just, and I was like, none of this, my thing is I want to know what I'm going to be eating when I read the title. I can't gather from this. what it's gonna be.

Jason Blitman: 42:07

Which is very different from, I know there's one in LA, but when I was growing up, there was a Hamburger Mary's in Florida and I loved ordering, whether I wanted to eat them or not. the Love Me Tenders. Because you're saying something ridiculous, but you also know what you're getting.

Rasheed Newson: 42:23

yeah. Everybody's in the mood for Love Me Tinder.

Jason Blitman: 42:26

Yes, thank you. Who doesn't want Love Me Tenders always? I'm just gonna cobble all of this together into

Rasheed Newson: 42:31

Oh, have we started?

Jason Blitman: 42:32

We've started! We've always started! I am over the moon to have today's guest gay reader on the show. They're the first returning guest to Gays Reading. And when I knew I was having this conversation with George M. Johnson, I was like, there's only one person who I want to talk to. You might know them from writing movies for Ryan Phillippe or TV shows or fantastic books that have been sitting on my shelf for so long because I love it so much and I pass it along to everybody that I know. The wonderful, delightful, fantastic Rasheed Newson. How are you?

Rasheed Newson: 43:11

I'm good. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Jason Blitman: 43:14

Welcome to Gays Reading. Again,

Rasheed Newson: 43:17

I, having been a guest, as an author and now as a gay reader, the only thing that could happen now is I could be a guest host. That's the last role in this trifecta,

Jason Blitman: 43:27

this is a fun idea.

Rasheed Newson: 43:28

And just take over one. Be like, you're like, you go on vacation, I step in.

Jason Blitman: 43:32

Or we could do a collab. Both things. Both things. I love. Okay, I have to ask, right off the bat, Rasheed, what are you reading?

Rasheed Newson: 43:40

I knew this would be the question, that is what the gay reader brings to the table but I would like to just throw this out there, because I'm going to say something and it might sound like, oh, is that a little crazy? Is he a little crazy? But I have a way I would like us all to think about it.

Jason Blitman: 43:53

Okay, I have three, you said Am I Crazy, and I had three different things that popped into my mind, so I'm very curious what you're about to say.

Rasheed Newson: 43:59

I'm currently in the middle of reading six different books.

Jason Blitman: 44:02

Oh, not where I thought this was going.

Rasheed Newson: 44:05

I mentioned, where were we going?

Jason Blitman: 44:07

I was like, is he going to say the Bible? Is he going to say the Communist Manifesto? Is he going to I don't know. I didn't, I thought you were like, oh, this is crazy. It was like, what, how crazy are we

Rasheed Newson: 44:16

no, it's six different books and I'm going to tell you all of them, but I also, I just want to throw out there because when you tell people you're doing that, people are like, Oh, I could never. And I'm like, but in a way you do, when you talk about consuming pop culture, you don't typically watch one television show at a time and just watch that show from beginning to end. You've got a dozen different shows you're watching and maybe there's one that really hooks you and you binge it in two days. And then maybe there's another one where you're like, are we still in season two? I think season four just came out, but that's how it goes. So here's what I'm reading.

Jason Blitman: 44:49

See, that wasn't weird to me when you said six bucks. It like didn't even faze

Rasheed Newson: 44:53

Oh good. How many are you in the middle of reading?

Jason Blitman: 44:55

Only two. But still I think the most maybe has been four but it still isn't weird. I like, I

Rasheed Newson: 45:01

I think I want, I, it's, I tell people at parties and they're like, it's somehow people think it's some sort of gymnastics trick they could never do. It's not the polar horse.

Jason Blitman: 45:10

might be watching a reality show, but you're, and you're not in the mood for it. So you're going to watch something else and you don't want a drama. You want a comedy, but you have all of the different things that you're in the mood for. Yes. Okay. So tell me, what are you reading?

Rasheed Newson: 45:23

Every Variable of Us by Charles Bush. YA, queer, delightful. Did Everyone Have an Imaginary Friend or Just Me by Jay Ellis. Memoir, but like young black gay men, like it's hitting me where I live. The Art of Power by Nancy Pelosi,

Jason Blitman: 45:42

Oh

Rasheed Newson: 45:42

which is incredibly insightful. But as you can imagine, there are days where I'm just like, I've had, I'm all politicked out. And so that one, I go back and through, back and forth through. The Life of Louis Kahn, you say the to brick by Wendy Lesser. I am very interested in architecture of this. I don't know if this happens to you. I may have over, overestimated my interest in architecture on this one. Like he is fascinating because he's so messy. He has like hidden families and mistresses and children all over the place. So that is holding me through. But I'm also like, I don't know if I'm going to be doing a deep dive into the lives of other architects.

Jason Blitman: 46:21

Oh, that's so funny.

Rasheed Newson: 46:22

Out of sheer rage, writing with D. H. Lawrence by Jeff Dyer, this was suggested to me by Jack Lowry, who wrote, It is vulgar. It was vulgar. It was beautiful. And then the one that's probably like at the center of the one I'm driving through the most. is Colored Television by Danzy Sena,

Jason Blitman: 46:40

Very recent case reading guest.

Rasheed Newson: 46:42

Great guest, but also as someone who, as a black man who works in television, this is hitting me

Jason Blitman: 46:48

And lives in LA. It's

Rasheed Newson: 46:50

So hard. And if there are times where I have to stop, it's because it hurts so much. Like this, I will not be giving a big plot twist away. She works on a failed project. And I don't think people outside of our business understand what that loss feels like. It just feels, Oh well, they're not doing it. And they can even be like, you got paid, but we worked so hard on these things. And you could be in some iteration working on them for a year or more. And then it's just not going to happen.

Jason Blitman: 47:26

And so all that said, you're, it's, you have to keep putting colored television down because it's giving you anxiety.

Rasheed Newson: 47:31

I believe every word of it. Every word of it. My Government Needs to Kill Me is my first published novel. I wrote another novel based on that main character's family set in Indiana. And, I think, again, it took me a year and a half, I had a lit agent, not different than the one I have now. We went out to 40 places, and I'm an optimistic person, so I was like, you just need one yes. I was Lady Gaga before Lady Gaga. And I got 40 no's. It is hard to imagine that you've wasted so much of your time and energy, that you have been so wrong about what it is you were making and how it would be received. It's, it, can I curse?

Jason Blitman: 48:12

Sure.

Rasheed Newson: 48:13

It's a mindfuck.

Jason Blitman: 48:14

Yeah.

Rasheed Newson: 48:15

And, you take a few of the, it's it's almost like with with sports, you can only take so many concussions before they tell you, maybe you need to stop this. How many mindfucks can you take as an artist? before you're like, maybe I need to walk away.

Jason Blitman: 48:28

right. And when you're living in your little bubble and then passing it around I just directed a production of Sweeney Todd in San Diego and I had no idea how it would be received. And it, a very positive review just came out the other day. And someone asked me, does that change how I felt, how I feel about working on the project? And I was like it doesn't change anything other than I feel validated. Yeah. in the work that I was doing. I was still very proud of it before that review came out, but there's something very reassuring, like that doesn't take away your pride for the work that you did. It

Rasheed Newson: 48:59

no, here's my, my question for you when you get a good review, there's people I think assume that it's just joy, but isn't most of it relief?

Jason Blitman: 49:08

yes. Literally the headline of the review says it is well staged.

Rasheed Newson: 49:12

Did you bother reading the rest? You're like, I'm done.

Jason Blitman: 49:14

I like got emotional reading just the headline, because, it's it's not like the directing information is hidden somewhere in the review, it like literally says it is a well staged production and s thank you

Rasheed Newson: 49:27

But I think people think that they would be surprised at where the joy is

Jason Blitman: 49:32

yeah,

Rasheed Newson: 49:32

that if I had to wait for the reviews to come out to feel joy, that would be a big problem. And in fact, by the time that happens, it is mostly relief. Joy is when I'm making it. I'm just praying I'm not misunderstood. My government needs to kill me has footnotes in it. And I envisioned that some horrible, smart ass critic would write a review tearing the book apart using footnotes to underline everything I

Jason Blitman: 49:56

In their review.

Rasheed Newson: 49:58

Yeah, in their review. But I would be footnoted, to death in a

Jason Blitman: 50:01

Oh, that was, I'm sure, a reoccurring nightmare that you had in this process.

Rasheed Newson: 50:05

Yeah, never happened. But it was, that's what you're afraid of. Because, it's I used to act. Some actors will say that they wish they never left rehearsals. Can we just keep rehearsing this? Do we actually have to let the audience in? I would probably never leave revisions

Jason Blitman: 50:19

funny.

Rasheed Newson: 50:19

in television. I'd probably never leave the room.

Jason Blitman: 50:22

Yeah, but at the end of the day, art doesn't exist without the audience.

Rasheed Newson: 50:26

Yes, they're

Jason Blitman: 50:27

let it go. You gotta let it go.

Rasheed Newson: 50:29

necessary, but I'm not, it's not it for me, it's not my favorite part. Like when I think of things I've worked on, and I don't know, it's what you find in rehearsal. It's what you see when you're sitting there and it's coming out Live in front of you That create that moment of creation Is typically really big for me and it's really even hard for me to Watch something I worked on Because when i'm watching it, I am back into the experience of what it was like making it. I'm like, Oh, it was hot that day. Oh God, we were so behind

Jason Blitman: 51:02

Yeah, such interesting sense memories.

Rasheed Newson: 51:05

Yeah. You can't, it's very hard for me to divorce.

Jason Blitman: 51:07

And speaking of this is the beginning of LGBTQIA plus history month. It is just after banned books week. And so not only is this conversation with George M. Johnson, but it's about their book, Flamboyance the queer Harlem Renaissance, I wish I'd known. And when I think a version of other side of the spectrum, queer Harlem Renaissance. My government means to kill me certainly comes to mind and is really historical fiction in terms of LGBTQIA history in New York. What do, what does this time, what does this time of the year mean to you when you hear queer history? When you think of queer Harlem Renaissance, what's the, what are some of the first things that come to

Rasheed Newson: 51:51

One of the first things that comes to mind is as a, as someone who grew up in the eighties and I would even say after that, there was this, you could be excused for thinking that queer liberation is something relatively new. And in fact, whether it was, Berlin in the 1920s or the Harlem Renaissance, in New York, there were times where queer life was very open and out front. And somehow the world didn't fall apart. The reactionary forces against queer life queer existence. are they have gathered in a way that tries to erase our history. They have gathered, they're trying to convince you that somehow there was some straight world of harmony. And what you're doing is disrupt is disrupting the natural order. And in fact, we have been a part of the natural order. The whole time, and so that's why I think it's important. I think people need to realize RuPaul is not quite the beginning of, gay queer liberation history. And I like RuPaul. Same with Sylvester, same with whoever, that there is a long, rich history. We see this also in African, the African American community. People again Okay. If you don't know your history you won't know all the, all this sort of impressive, wonderful communities we had long before the Civil Rights Movement, right? So I think that perspective is what we're trying to gain when we're giving people things like we're celebrating queer history. I'm, I work, or my work, I volunteer for the One Institute, which puts on the Circa Queer Histories Festival every year in LA during the month of October. And we have, people can look it up, Circa Queer Histories Festival, and we do programming, workshops, screenings all over LA for the month of October. And it is just connecting people. to their roots as a queer community.

Jason Blitman: 53:39

Is there something this October that you are particularly excited about with this festival?

Rasheed Newson: 53:45

I,

Jason Blitman: 53:46

You could say, now I can cut

Rasheed Newson: 53:47

No, I have a, I have an event on October 10th, I believe. It's on the calendar and it's me and three other queer authors. Talking about villains and heroes in literature and life.

Jason Blitman: 54:00

And this episode comes out a week before that. So everyone, if you're in and around LA, go check out the Circle Queer History Festival and go see Rashid's panel.

Rasheed Newson: 54:12

that's fine.

Jason Blitman: 54:13

Amazing. Great. I heard everything that you're reading.

Rasheed Newson: 54:15

You want my hot take?

Jason Blitman: 54:17

Yeah. Oh my God. Yes. What is your hot take? What are you reading these days?

Rasheed Newson: 54:21

I I tried to cast this what I could say is we need everybody, I need everybody to cut the size of their books down by like 20 to 30%.

Jason Blitman: 54:30

Whoa, that is a read on Gay's Reading. Hmm.

Rasheed Newson: 54:36

To champion the return of the novella. Okay? The novella is a delight. I consider open throat. I believe it's a novella. I read that one sitting on a plane delicious. And part of its glory is it did not try to overstay its welcome. That that, it was, it had a propulsion to it. And it had a setup that can only go so long.

Jason Blitman: 54:59

Some of us might argue it could have been a short story, but I don't know

Rasheed Newson: 55:04

I was down.

Jason Blitman: 55:05

who that is, but

Rasheed Newson: 55:06

Why not? Some people are like, even shorter. But I think, something has, something seems to have gotten to the water supply where people are like, I need a big heavy book. And I need to go well past a hundred thousand words. And I think the thought is that this makes us, we should take it seriously. It's supposed to, it's supposed to suggest not just a physical heft, but a substance to the work itself. And I'm like you and your editor just need it another month.

Jason Blitman: 55:31

Yeah. No, a little goes a long way, and, Franklin, my husband's favorite book is East of Eden. And when I read it, I didn't feel like it was worth the, 700 pages. But then you think about it in history and just historically, and at the time it was written, there was only so much entertainment that people had, right? So like you needed to

Rasheed Newson: 55:54

a lot of these things are also like, they were serialized, right? They were coming out in the, in the, Saturday evening post, 2, 000 words at a time all year.

Jason Blitman: 56:02

Exactly. But now like you could still have a great American novel that is under 300 pages.

Rasheed Newson: 56:08

Again, I won't, I don't want to call out name, novels by names, but there are a lot of novels where I am like, and this is the end. And I look, and there are 40 more pages.

Jason Blitman: 56:18

Yeah, no, I feel that. That is a really good hot take. I have to say, I have been, I've been asking less. about the hot takes right now because everybody is talking about the election.

Rasheed Newson: 56:28

Was that what I was supposed to do?

Jason Blitman: 56:29

No,

Rasheed Newson: 56:30

should do something literary! Isn't this just,

Jason Blitman: 56:31

you for not doing that. I which is why my brain didn't even go there Um, if you have not yet read Rashid's book, My Government Means to Kill Me, you have to check it out. It's terrific. I loved it so much. And as I just mentioned, my husband, Franklin, he dilly dallied and, but did eventually read it. And it's been one of his favorite books that he's been recommending to all of his friends as well. So it doesn't just come recommended from a person who hosts a book podcast. And yeah, go learn your queer history, everyone, because it's LGBTQIA history month. And that's a great way to do it. Reading Rasheed Newsom's book. Thank you for being here.

Rasheed Newson: 57:07

This is a pleasure and fun.

Jason Blitman: 57:08

I'm so glad quick, fast and dirty.

Rasheed Newson: 57:11

That's how I like my books too.

Jason Blitman: 57:12

Yes, exactly. We need to put that on a poster somewhere.

57:16

Thank you, George. Thank you. Rashid such a pleasure, having you both here on gays reading. again, like it, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on social media at gaze reading and join me back next week. We have An author of a very cool, very literary novel that is going to get us all ready for the fall season. And our guests gay reader is an icon, neck, queer, standup comedian, join us next week. Thank you all have a great week. See you soon. Bye.