0:04

Gays reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gays reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays reading.

Jason Blitman: 0:33

Welcome to gays reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And if you have joined us before, welcome back. And if this is your first time listening, I'm very happy to have you. We are also over on YouTube. You can check out our YouTube channel, where you can watch some of these great conversations that I've been having. You could find the link in the link tree, on our Instagram page, as well as in our show notes. And if you could like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it helps make sure that other book levers can find gays reading as well. Follow us on social media at gays reading, we have a new giveaway every single week. And you won't want to miss those including today. Tuesday, October 8th is the last day for the current giveaway. That's going on. Uh, and it is for four books from the new imprint bindery books. Go check it out. As reading on Instagram. If you have been listening, you've heard me say the spiel about aardvark book club. I am thrilled to share that we are partnering with aardvark book club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. Listen, aardvark book lab. They already have their books, verse$17, which is an incredible deal. But if you use the code GAYSREADING, new members in the United States can get their first book for$4 and it's free shipping. ARD rec book club.com. And if you are unfamiliar aardvark book club is a monthly book, subscription shipping to the us and Canada. On the first of every month, they drop Five to six new release as across a range of genres. From literary fiction to fantasy, to romance. And they focus on curating a mix of buzzy books, new releases, and other under the radar gems. On today's episode, we have rivers Solomon who is here to talk to us about their new book. Model home. It is so perfect for this time of year. And the cover is out of control. Gorgeous. I mean, come on. Um, So I'm so excited that they're here and our guest gay reader. Holy moly, the one and only Margaret Cho. So you're not gonna want to miss that. Stick around to the end, to check out my conversation with Margaret Cho here about what she's reading. And that's all the housekeeping. Welcome to gays reading rivers, Solomon. protein powder and coffee. I'm very curious about

Rivers Solomon: 3:05

I I just discovered this maybe a few days ago because I can't drink

Jason Blitman: 3:10

This is very new.

Rivers Solomon: 3:11

got tired It's more, it's like a few weeks. It's a few weeks. I've been, so I just got tired of having like protein shakes. With the protein powder, I was like, I was into it for a while. I felt like a child. I was like, Ooh, this is my glass of milk. That's what it felt like. And I was like, I'm reparenting myself, whatever. And that was the energy. But then I was like, I just need a way to this not have it be like an extra thing that I'm doing like I don't, I like, I don't want to be, I also don't want to be a protein shake person necessarily. No,

Jason Blitman: 3:41

No shade. No.

Rivers Solomon: 3:42

Yes. It's that's not me. That's not part of my narrative. Was like, let me try it in coffee. And I did. I love a smoothie. They're so versatile. I used to hate them because I felt like there was a I didn't hate them, but the I would have never really got into making them at home because I'd find the blender and all that to just be a lot of

Jason Blitman: 3:57

lot to clean up. Yeah.

Rivers Solomon: 3:59

Yes, but my friend suggested it must be like four or five years ago now, getting like one of the bullet blenders. And that has definitely has made it so much easier that it's like a one

Jason Blitman: 4:09

And that's what I use.

Rivers Solomon: 4:11

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:12

It's complicated. You have your metal straw. You have to clean the metal straw. There's a lot to clean. With smoothies, there's a lot of schmutz everywhere.

Rivers Solomon: 4:19

There is

Jason Blitman: 4:20

The nooks and crannies and everything. Anyway,

Rivers Solomon: 4:22

a lot of Nixon cronies.

Jason Blitman: 4:24

of nooks and crannies,

Rivers Solomon: 4:24

I was like, oh, that's a great segue.

Jason Blitman: 4:27

my god, so ridiculous. River Solomon, tell me about Model Home. What is your elevator pitch for the book? Do you have one yet?

Rivers Solomon: 4:35

Oh, man.

Jason Blitman: 4:36

Now's your moment to workshop it.

Rivers Solomon: 4:37

start with that? Okay. No, that one's worked. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 4:40

this is a safe space.

Rivers Solomon: 4:41

okay. All right. What do I say? I say different things to different people depending on what I think they're into, to be honest which probably isn't fair. For some people, I just say, this is my take on a haunted house novel, or sometimes I'll say this is a haunted house novel, but instead of the old sort of crumbling house that we get, it takes place in a new build in the suburbs, and already that is a. a different setting that we get that's enough to make it interesting, at least to me anyway, I don't know about what interests other people always. But my pitch that's a little bit more fleshed out is instead of in the aftermath of having grown up in a house where terrible, inexplicable things happened to you, And what's it like to live it? What is it like to live in the aftermath of having grown up in a house that wanted to kill you? And then having to return to that house when something happens to your parents in that house. So that's what I say.

Jason Blitman: 5:37

would probably layer on top of that. On top of both things, that it's a family story too.

Rivers Solomon: 5:43

Yes, absolutely. That's key. It's a dysfunctional family story, but yes, absolutely. Yeah, and I think the siblings especially are at the center of it and their sibling relationship I think there's also a lot of like mother child stuff and all of those familial Relationships, but I do think the siblings as well are really

Jason Blitman: 6:02

yeah. There were so many things in the story that were like, so relatable. And the characters are so richly drawn. And yet I don't want to use the term generic because that is not true, but they are so specific and yet there is an element that where you can so see the skeleton of them as a part of you as well. Like I saw myself in these characters that I have nothing in common with on, on the page. But I was like, Oh my God, this is a version of X, Y, or Z, which is, was a very interesting thing to experience.

Rivers Solomon: 6:36

Yeah. No, I definitely, yes. When I think about my characters, I try to think about how, I tend to think visually, I'll think about visual media first, so I'll think about, Like TV characters, especially ones that were really big and larger than life because it's really easy I think when you have a person performing a role for that character to become like very like alive And oh, yes, I know that person like with all of those sort of videos So I try to think and make those kinds of use those kinds of details even if I don't quite cast it, I'll often have I never reveal it, but like a secret kind of inspiration for the character.

Jason Blitman: 7:14

I love that you said, the first thing you said was, I'll never reveal it. Just in case Jason wants to ask, I'm not gonna tell you.

Rivers Solomon: 7:20

Had to head that off. Yes,

Jason Blitman: 7:22

just imagine in my own head.

Rivers Solomon: 7:24

Yeah. But like I was saying, it's like breakfast clubby. It's you have the job, and you like, we obviously that's not all there is to a person, but it is like a helpful little shorthand to get

Jason Blitman: 7:34

actually so glad you said that, because I, for the last three minutes, have been mortified that I used the term generic, because that But what you just said is exactly, I think, what I was thinking. There are these sort of, especially in families, there are these archetypes.

Rivers Solomon: 7:47

Archetypes. Yes. That's the word

Jason Blitman: 7:49

Yeah I am the oldest of three. My mother in law is not the oldest, but is the oldest. And that takes place, that happens in this book, right? And so I was like, Oh, I see these people. Anyway. Okay. Archetypes. That's not generic archetypes. Very richly drawn characters. I really felt like it's about a child, being a child of the 90s.

Rivers Solomon: 8:12

With anything I write, the question of time changes a lot when I'm writing it. Because it's the book set in 2023 or 2024? That's always a kind of a question you have to think about, like, when you're writing something contemporary. Or am I gonna or is it 2000, and in which case I wanted to write a contemporary novel. If I go back in time, then it's okay, they grew up in this house in the nineties, right? So same, not that I grew up in the

Jason Blitman: 8:34

Sure. But you, if you were to go back to your house, you grew up there in the

Rivers Solomon: 8:37

Yeah. And I just think something I think there's a lot of, a little bit about sort of the technology of that time. That's really interesting to me. I think because I'm a child of the nineties, I am like, Oh, there's so much, right? interesting stuff happening culturally. Um, I Think actually that my characters are slightly older than me. I can't remember what exact ages and everything that I settled on for them. So I was very much a millennial in the sense that I, that's when things like in 2000, that's when things really like, that's when I was really coming of age. that timeframe. As opposed to the slightly older millennials who really were full on into the, nineties and stuff. But I don't know, it was so cute and grungy. Wasn't it? That's like an idea.

Jason Blitman: 9:21

you and I are roughly the same age. And so I, I totally get the, grunginess, but there were, there are two very specific things that I was like, oh, this is so of the time. One is silly. One is trauma, but

Rivers Solomon: 9:36

Okay. Like the full spectrum of life. Like that.

Jason Blitman: 9:40

silly to trauma. That's what, that's our journey that we're on. Oh my God.

Rivers Solomon: 9:44

Hopefully the journey is traumatistically. Like that maybe it's

Jason Blitman: 9:48

Fair. I don't know. I would probably say that there are hills and valleys, right? Of trauma and silly. Thing one, and we could probably talk about this for the rest of our time together is. Is the idea of when you grow up scanning social media for the people that you grew up with to see who's queer now. was like, this is so specific. I have literally gone through my yearbooks to be like, Oh, let me search this person's name.

Rivers Solomon: 10:13

Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. No, it's

Jason Blitman: 10:16

Did you have

Rivers Solomon: 10:17

that's like

Jason Blitman: 10:18

discoveries? Because

Rivers Solomon: 10:19

first boyfriend, which is obviously like we were, I was in fifth grade. He was

Jason Blitman: 10:24

yes.

Rivers Solomon: 10:25

We met at camp. Yeah. So love that for us.

Jason Blitman: 10:28

Yes, we love this.

Rivers Solomon: 10:29

Like

Jason Blitman: 10:30

There was clearly like, kindred spirits.

Rivers Solomon: 10:33

Queer for

Jason Blitman: 10:34

Yes! It's so funny, because growing up, there were, I look back and like, all of my close friends, the people that I really connected with as early as elementary school, are now queer.

Rivers Solomon: 10:46

Yes, same. Absolutely. Same. And like some people I haven't even had to go back and search for.

Jason Blitman: 10:51

Oh yeah, no, you just know, it's in the world, right?

Rivers Solomon: 10:53

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 10:54

Like, I didn't have to search for them because in our 20s, we had that fun night together.

Rivers Solomon: 10:58

absolutely. Um,

Jason Blitman: 11:04

Themselves with it in their face with their coffee mug.

Rivers Solomon: 11:07

Hold on, let me retry. Yeah, I do think the first boyfriend one was the one that I found the most like, cute and silly and fun. I was like, oh my god, look at you, a little picture of you and your boyfriend. I love this.

Jason Blitman: 11:19

we love this journey for him. Oh my god, that's so funny. I know, I don't know. It's interesting. No, no one I think surprised me from like my youth, but I have now been like back in touch with some people I went to college with or with contemporary open mindedness. I feel like that's the best way to, to phrase it. And people being less afraid of stepping out of the binary. I have some, what I would have referred to as like relatively pretty straight friends from college who are now like, yeah, I'm not really totally straight. And I'm like, oh, that's

Rivers Solomon: 11:56

We love it.

Jason Blitman: 11:57

Like totally. And that doesn't mean that they're not still married to their opposite sex partner. They're just like, able to feel comfortable in their skin to be freer. And I was like, Oh, that's really cool to live in this space now.

Rivers Solomon: 12:10

Yeah. It's really funny that you mentioned that sort of aspect specifically because One, I do feel like I have a slight, I have a slight. different experience than most people growing up in the 90s, just because my best friend who I met when I was in fourth grade, he was gay and came out to me in fifth grade. So I was like already I was like, Oh wow, that's great for you. Not me though. But,

Jason Blitman: 12:30

Why are you telling me that?

Rivers Solomon: 12:32

So I like, and my mom was always very progressive and we had I had queer adults in my life and stuff and all of that. But right now, so that openness, I felt like it's. It's increased a thousand fold. And and it's definitely yes, seeing that more people like feeling open and being able to do that. But the book that I'm writing currently I guess it's Gen X because the sort, the main characters starts when she's 13. And it takes place in 93. I guess that's the age I think that is, is 80, is 1980. The cutoff. I can never tell. I

Jason Blitman: 13:03

there's definitely a blurry line there.

Rivers Solomon: 13:05

It's a play then, right? And staying on even just that difference so I would have been 13 in 2001 or 2, I think, versus 93 just the, over that year span I think how much even changed even over

Jason Blitman: 13:20

Oh, yeah. Technology

Rivers Solomon: 13:21

yet. Yes. Yes. Even if it was just at the library, being able to look up certain stuff even like in a Texas, conservative suburb, like that was a thing that was, I was able to do that I don't think would have been available to do in 93.

Jason Blitman: 13:35

Absolutely. In fifth grade, I remember we, I don't remember what the project was, but there was something where we had to write our favorite website. And I, we hadn't, we didn't have a computer at home at the time. So we didn't have the internet. And I think I literally remember writing yahoo. com was my favorite website. Cause like there, what website was I going to?

Rivers Solomon: 13:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 13:55

So funny. Something that I find very interesting is the title. the book is called Model Home and I didn't want to talk about this first because I feel like we could have talked about this for the entire conversation and just like breaking it down because the term model I think means so many things, right? It's representation, it's pristine, it's setting a tone, setting the example and then the word home versus the word house. what was the journey coming to the title for you? Obviously, this isn't a spoiler, but the house in the book was the model home of the complex. So there's that sort of literal representation too, but where, how did you come to this title?

Rivers Solomon: 14:44

I think this is one of those rare beautiful titles for me anyway, that there was no journey, like it came to me instantly, like that this is like the perfect representation of something very about this book. I think What's important about a model or the type of model I'm thinking about is essentially that it's fake, the model is not real. It is a, it's a picture of a thing or an idea of a thing. It's an ideal that, won't ever can, could never be reached by anyone. Like that's built into it. So when I think of this, yes, you have, They live in the sort of a model home or the show, show home or show houses. It's sometimes called in these sort of like new developments where, they're all furnished and the people they want to move into the neighborhoods, they can have a look about, imagine what their life would be like there. And I think that the, there's an aspect in which I think Esri, that's the main character, their mother is in a lot of ways, after that, this ideal of what a family should be and what a home should be, and they're trying to achieve this model, and it's in many ways, very much a tragic flaw. And so that's why Model Home and I think how we all are like trying to create our own homes and families and communities and all of these things is there is that I don't know, this romanticization or of what we want or could be that it never is. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:06

so interesting that you say model is not real and is something to aspire to because, thinking about something else that comes up later in the book is Ezri talks about, about like finding a model of good people, like how you can, who you can model yourself after, right? And then so thinking about the word in that context, suddenly it's wait a minute, you can't reach that level,

Rivers Solomon: 16:33

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:34

right? There's, okay, yes, there is, there's something to like, have a goal and aspire to, but

Rivers Solomon: 16:41

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:41

it's just an example.

Rivers Solomon: 16:43

It's just an example. And I also think models like there's it's, they're like, like a mannequin or like an actual model where like the point is to show off something in this sort of best possible light. That's remove all sort of humanity and particularness of, of an individual is removed from it. So there's that. And I think Esri in particular is a very kind of unrealized is the word that I kind of wanna use. Like not knowing maybe who they are. And so like perhaps sometimes latching on to something like a model or an archetype or a character, or a doll, like something that sort of feels cohesive.

Jason Blitman: 17:23

My husband and I talk a lot about the idea that there are not many older gay men that we can model our life after and When I also, thinking about that right now, I'm just like, oh, another word I could use is example, right? There's not an example of something that can represent our future. And when I think about that word, which has a, Less sexy connotation,

Rivers Solomon: 17:53

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:53

but it like means the same thing contextually

Rivers Solomon: 17:57

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:57

It's like calling it an example home, right? But that's what it is. It's Showing what it can be You're like wait, that's certainly not as sexy and you

Rivers Solomon: 18:08

sorry, I'm not going to be able to get Example Home out of my

Jason Blitman: 18:11

You're welcome. I just messed up your whole book tour.

Rivers Solomon: 18:14

Love that. Example

Jason Blitman: 18:15

But right

Rivers Solomon: 18:16

No. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 18:17

And when you think about an example, when I think of if an artist shows you an example of how to do something, the idea is you then take it and make it your own.

Rivers Solomon: 18:29

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 18:29

Whereas,

Rivers Solomon: 18:30

idea of an example is also this is one of several possibilities, like it's there's an implied range of things like in fact you will often say, here's an example don't use the example when you're doing you know the assignment or whatever,

Jason Blitman: 18:44

You literally don't do the example. And yet model, which like, again, contextually can mean a version of the same thing, really comes across in a different way. And that's this little epiphany that I just had. So you're welcome.

Rivers Solomon: 18:58

Oh, I love that. That's interesting because I think because this is something that happens when we grow up, anybody growing up and a lot of people, regardless of what kind of child that they have, often will have a sense of, I don't want to do things the way that it was done with me. And but there is this sort of lack of, okay. Then what? There's this, and I think all of the the, all of the siblings in in model homes have their version of people. How do I create a life if it's not trying to be in a model home? Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:29

Because they didn't have an example set for them that was other than what they

Rivers Solomon: 19:35

Way to tie it. Yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 19:37

Okay, I cannot believe it has been 35 minutes and we have not talked about ghosts.

Rivers Solomon: 19:44

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:45

I'm at a loss for words because I don't want to spoil anything. And I also like, but I also have so many things to talk about.

Rivers Solomon: 19:50

Can I just say sorry to interrupt, but it's so hard to talk about this book without spoiling Anything. Don't spoil anything!

Jason Blitman: 19:56

no, we're not, and we're not spoiling anything.

Rivers Solomon: 19:58

And I find it really tricky

Jason Blitman: 20:00

Yeah, and I think that the idea of a family story within the context of a turned on its head haunted house story people can probably assume or imply like the sorts of ghosts that will come across. In the book there are metaphorical ghosts, there are trauma ghosts, there are literal ghosts. And a question for you is, Can we, do you think we can escape our ghosts?

Rivers Solomon: 20:28

yeah, absolutely not

Jason Blitman: 20:30

And that is what makes the book so scary.

Rivers Solomon: 20:33

Yeah, I really, I thought about this a lot. I've been writing about ghosts for a long time. My first book is called An Unkindness of Ghosts. When I was, doing my MFA and I was in a poetry workshop the professor in this particular workshop separated us into three or four groups and gave us a, that she thought were like thematically similar. And I was in the ghost group. So that's I certainly can't escape.

Jason Blitman: 20:59

That, would you say that's your

Rivers Solomon: 21:00

I don't know. That, yes,

Jason Blitman: 21:02

That's your writer archetype?

Rivers Solomon: 21:03

Yes. Yes, it is. And I don't think that they, I guess there's the notion of what, what does escape mean? Can they perhaps be less of a terrifying or upsetting force? Yes, I think so. Potentially. And then for that there's also all of the various cliche things like facing your past, things like that does that, I think in model home a big thing is shame and secrets and the way that's a space that goes very much and thrive and flourish in as well. But we live like the past, like it's always, it does live, like the past, it literally lives. It's it's that

Jason Blitman: 21:42

and that's what is so fascinating. It's even things that are dead, I was thinking like, are ghosts even dead if they are haunting you, right? If they're a part of you, if they're present what does it mean to be alive versus dead? Which is yeah, it's different than live, physically living or being prescient. But, What do you think happens to previous versions of ourselves?

Rivers Solomon: 22:05

Oh, man. Okay. So based on like the first part of that question, I thought the second part was going to go in a different direction. So I had been preparing my answer for the wrong

Jason Blitman: 22:14

Oh, now I'm curious to know what that question you thought was.

Rivers Solomon: 22:17

So this question I don't know. I feel like I think about this a lot because I'm going through a lot of changes right now. Like I'm in this whole huge gender, like I'm like going for a much more like feminized sort of feminine, traditionally feminine leaning like presentation than I have like in the last five to 10 years. Like I thought I was done with this, all of these things. I got my eyebrows waxed for the first time in 15 years. So I, I certainly thought that me, that was gone. Yeah. Do think we all have a natural fluidity, right? I'm not just talking about gender, right? And I think this is somewhat gestured at in the book. We're always growing and changing and different phases and parts of our life bring out new things in us. Sometimes certain things are buried and then something causes them to be reawakened. So I don't really think that they, the old me's, I don't, and the old us's, I don't think that they, I think that they are always a part of us. They

Jason Blitman: 23:14

The way that you were just talking, I'm having a lot of epiphanies today. I feel like I'm maybe I'm in therapy right now. Think that it is not uncommon for us to think about past and present and future as as linear and Suddenly I was like, oh, it's more like a snowball, right? Because we're like collecting these pieces and building on top of it rather than looking backwards, right? Like the piece of you that once upon a time liked waxing your eyebrows, did not go away. It was not far away behind you. It's deep inside of you. And that is a, like a very different way of thinking about it.

Rivers Solomon: 23:54

Yeah, I think I love that. And I've also thought about this particular question a lot with relationships and how sometimes you can get to a point like with a person I don't know what I ever saw in this person, or, I think this is a fairly common experience or, Not being able to relate to a previous version of yourself sometimes that is definitely a thing That can happen whether it's like evolving like political beliefs or any number of things happen But I like, recently, much more recently I've been able to like, I think part of it is about there's an aspect of acceptance to it, and once you have that acceptance and let go of shame a little bit, like I can go back and I'm able to access those past selves more and be like, You know what I do know what you were thinking. I actually do know what, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:43

It's also. I talk all the time about my frustrations with binary things in general, and for the first time I'm thinking about past, present, and future as binary ideas, right? Like it doesn't it is not just your past because it is a part of you. And therefore, it is also your present and is also your future. And it is this sort of blended, mixed thing.

Rivers Solomon: 25:07

It is. And

Jason Blitman: 25:08

I feel like I just had a breakthrough.

Rivers Solomon: 25:10

all at once. I love this for you so much.

Jason Blitman: 25:12

God.

Rivers Solomon: 25:13

that's what I love about like writing and talking and being like, I love being able to connect like with

Jason Blitman: 25:18

And there's totally,

Rivers Solomon: 25:20

Each other to our own on our own, like we're all on our own journeys, but we're also on a journey together and we're like in a network.

Jason Blitman: 25:25

and something so specific in the book that I've been thinking about is the difference between moving on and running away. And, again, back to binary running away you cannot run away from these things that are a part of you. You can move on, though. And that's a different

Rivers Solomon: 25:42

And also sometimes it's even both, like sometimes you need to run away, like sometimes for your safety. So like running away, like it might have this bad connotation to it, like running away from your problems. Like actually sometimes you do want to run away from your problems. That is definitely the correct solution sometimes. So yeah, that is that as well.

Jason Blitman: 26:01

Yeah, but if they're if, it's like running away from a thing that's tied around your ankle, right?

Rivers Solomon: 26:06

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 26:06

I mean? Like, how do you, how can you run away from something that's a piece of you,

Rivers Solomon: 26:10

yeah, you can't run away from yourself. Yeah, not that many people don't try.

Jason Blitman: 26:16

right. And that's what's so interesting. And I think, talking

Rivers Solomon: 26:19

yes.

Jason Blitman: 26:22

and coming to terms with certain things. I think it's like when you've, when you understand and respect your full self, then you don't need to run away from those pieces of you. You can move on. You can bury them in the snowball, right? But that doesn't, they will be a part of you because that's who we are. There's a quote in the book talking about, I think often about what is possible and what is impossible. What makes something possible versus impossible? That

Rivers Solomon: 26:52

A writer who's done a lot of speculative fiction, and that, and I say sometimes in my various bios that the realm that I live in is like the realm of the imaginary. And in the realm of the imaginary nothing is impossible, right? And I prefer to think about. in that term, that like everything is possible. Like we maybe don't have the means, resources, ideas, et cetera, right at this specific moment. But a lot of things do feel impossible until, if we can just imagine for a second that it is possible, though, what would we do and how would that change the way that we act? And I especially think about that in terms of like various moments of like rebellion, like there's imagining that more is possible than maybe feels like what is possible is really important. I like to think that, everything's possible. Yeah, I do. I don't know, I'm like, but not that, I'm not like saying that in a corny, hopeful way, because people who know me know that I am a pretty like, despairing person.

Jason Blitman: 27:50

not your archetype.

Rivers Solomon: 27:51

That's not that's not part of my

Jason Blitman: 27:53

It is very off brand.

Rivers Solomon: 27:55

It is though it's not me. So Yeah, I, but I do think um,

Jason Blitman: 28:05

I was, I was just talking to an author about the idea of imagination and how important that is. And when I think about, or until that conversation, when I thought about imagination, I fantastical. But really the idea of imagination is just. being able to think about things that didn't exist before, like a cell phone, right? To someone that's fantastical, but that's also our reality, and because someone was able to imagine that, it meant that anything was possible, right? So I think that's what I'm hearing you say,

Rivers Solomon: 28:36

I think a lot about, you use this sort of the example of the cell phone. I think a lot about even much more like basic technologies like the wheel. And Like I do think there's a natural sort of inspiration for that and say like a log or something like that rolls that but I also like to think if I were just here in this world could I have ever really dreamed up the wheel like if we lived in a sort of a completely where it wasn't just a basic thing in my life and other very sort of basic technologies that we have I feel like it would be, it could be quite a leap. I think in the book, the question of impossible possible is posed about this idea of, is it, I'm like, I'm not sure if I'm misremembering it, might be about the idea of the

Jason Blitman: 29:22

It definitely is.

Rivers Solomon: 29:23

Is it? Yes. And yeah, so that's the context in which it exists and I'm still like, I think that. For me, yeah, being open to all possibilities, I think is, there's nothing, there's no harm in it at the

Jason Blitman: 29:36

And we also certainly didn't, haven't proved that it doesn't exist.

Rivers Solomon: 29:40

sure, and I don't know, there's so much that we don't know and I don't know, we live in a very vast universe,

Jason Blitman: 29:47

Huh. Very overwhelming.

Rivers Solomon: 29:49

It is! It is very overwhelming. Don't look up at the night sky too long, okay? Don't do it! And we're seeing the tiniest, tiniest fraction. I tend to think that most things are possible and and I was going to say Oh, I was going to give you a caveat. Maybe it's not possible that I'm like going to be like an Olympic gymnast or something like that. Some sort of things, but you know what, maybe I could see a universe in which that occurs actually I've seen enough really inspiring sports films to potentially

Jason Blitman: 30:20

right. There is that teeny tiny nugget where you're thinking about Denzel Washington and Remember the Titans

Rivers Solomon: 30:27

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 30:28

Can play football too.

Rivers Solomon: 30:29

Or that woman in that movie, Nyad, she'd failed so many times. She did something in her

Jason Blitman: 30:36

was just going to say she wasn't

Rivers Solomon: 30:37

like in her 20s. Yeah, so

Jason Blitman: 30:41

Oh my God, Rivers. What are we going to do?

Rivers Solomon: 30:43

River Solomon, Olympic gymnast,

Jason Blitman: 30:45

Maybe I'll be your coach. I'm going to learn how to be a gymna a gymnastics coach.

Rivers Solomon: 30:48

Yeah, so this is like message to everybody, get rid of your limiting beliefs.

Jason Blitman: 30:52

My God.

Rivers Solomon: 30:53

I'll see you on the mat.

Jason Blitman: 30:54

I didn't watch any of the Olympics this year. I'm a terrible world human.

Rivers Solomon: 30:58

so lucky because I was actually in the US while the Olympics were happening and I was staying at a friend's who has a TV and that was just on all day. So I just was able to absorb it.

Jason Blitman: 31:09

One of the things I did want to ask, just, and you don't have to list too many things, but this could potentially be uplifting as we end. Esri's therapist suggests that they come up with a list of five activities that could ground them when they're feeling away and unreal. Is there anything, an activity that you feel like is a good grounding activity? Oh, drinking your coffee?

Rivers Solomon: 31:30

so many. I'm a bath person.

Jason Blitman: 31:33

Oh

Rivers Solomon: 31:33

water in general, also swimming. That's obviously not something that's good for just immediately doing in the moment. But anything that's like a strong, really lovely sensory experience, and I think hot water and water in general can really bring that on. Hugging yourself.

Jason Blitman: 31:51

yes, let's do it. Oh, that's nice.

Rivers Solomon: 31:54

this is something that we only do covering your face. It's something that we tend to do like when we're like embarrassed, but actually do is like it can actually feel quite comforting and like you feel your hands against

Jason Blitman: 32:03

Like warm palms on your eyes. Very nice.

Rivers Solomon: 32:07

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:08

Those are good. All right, should we end rubbing our hands together and putting, and covering our eyes?

Rivers Solomon: 32:12

Or just like combine.

Jason Blitman: 32:14

I know. Wash your hands first so that you don't. Your skin doesn't break out. Model Home, Rivers, congratulations.

Rivers Solomon: 32:20

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for inviting me here and for talking with me. I've had so much

Jason Blitman: 32:26

I'm so glad. I'm so happy to have you. I can't wait for everyone to check it out. By the time this airs, it will have come out a week or two ago.

Rivers Solomon: 32:34

Read

Jason Blitman: 32:35

read it and it's funny I read some of it when you're watching a scary movie, you can cover your eyes and and listen when you're reading a book that is making you feel things you can't cover your eyes because that's how you're consuming it. But there were a few things where I was like squinting. Like just in case I needed to close my eyes.

Rivers Solomon: 32:54

I've done that. I've done that. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:56

I was like, is this, am I okay? Am I going to be okay reading this?

Rivers Solomon: 32:59

Yeah. Jason. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 33:01

Today's guest gay reader, you may know her from starring in movies like Face Off and Fire Island. Everyone from John Travolta to Bo and Yang have been this Incredible Humans co star. I mean, really, she's just one of those names that everybody knows because she's, you know, been on TV and like, The Masked Singer, hosted a podcast, done countless TV shows, you know, Grammy nominated, Emmy nominated, stand up comedian, actress, singer, songwriter. But for me, I know her because I have the image of her face buried in the crook of her elbow, burned into my brain. The first fag hag for all of us millennials, notorious CHO, Margaret Cho!

Margaret Cho: 33:47

Hi, what an amazing introduction. Thank you very much.

Jason Blitman: 33:51

Of course! The list is too long!

Margaret Cho: 33:54

Amazing. Thank

Jason Blitman: 33:55

you. feel like that's your career? Do you like

Margaret Cho: 33:58

Oh, I don't, I, I mean, I guess I, I do lots of different things every day, which is great. So, you know, I really enjoy that aspect of it. That's one of the one, like wonderful things about my work, but I always think I'm also just still a standup comic. That's Yeah, so I always do that, but everything else is always really fun.

Jason Blitman: 34:19

Do you ever feel like because that's the core that you, people expect you to just be funny all the time?

Margaret Cho: 34:24

Well, I think, you know, you want to try to be funny. Like, you want to try your best. So that's, like, in general, I think that's how I feel.

Jason Blitman: 34:35

Think everybody probably wants to know how's your mom?

Margaret Cho: 34:38

doing great. doing great. Um, she and my dad now are at this really fabulous assisted living, which they love. And my dad is really popular because he has his own teeth and he can walk unassisted. So he's the only person in the whole facility that has, uh, no use of a cane or a walker or a wheelchair. He's just like running around. And my mom is really proud of him and they're doing great. She's doing great.

Jason Blitman: 35:08

Does he, like, chew things for people?

Margaret Cho: 35:10

He probably should. I'm going to ask him to next time. I'm going to ask him to choose something. Sometimes I have some trouble. So I'm going to ask him to choose something for me. That's a great thing.

Jason Blitman: 35:19

so funny. I know, honest. Every time, I have been flossing so much more now than I think I was even two years ago, because I'm like, I want to be that person in my 80s who has my teeth

Margaret Cho: 35:28

Well you have to. Also there's always that one gay breath with terrible gay breath. You know that gay breath. That's always one queen that

Jason Blitman: 35:39

The old queen with the gay breath.

Margaret Cho: 35:40

gay breath. Which is like, girl, girl.

Jason Blitman: 35:45

And it's a little bit like mothballs. You're like,

Margaret Cho: 35:47

It's, I

Jason Blitman: 35:47

is this just what's,

Margaret Cho: 35:48

What is the mothball? Like, that's like the weird, the camphor. Where does that, like, eucalyptus camphor smell come from? Like,

Jason Blitman: 35:56

where does it come from? I know.

Margaret Cho: 35:59

is like mothballs.

Jason Blitman: 36:00

Yes. But I know exactly what you're talking about. Like, does it, is it like gifted to you at when you hit a certain age? I'm very, I have a lot of Googling to

Margaret Cho: 36:09

a really, it's a real old gay thing, but there's always one queen with just that gay breath that you're like, girl, just I don't know. I don't know what it is. I'm worried that it's me, you know? Also, if I don't smell it, then I'm like, what if it's me? I think somebody would tell me,

Jason Blitman: 36:25

I'm sure they would. So this has come up in your life so much lately. I don't know, I wonder why, but everyone has been talking to you about the bookstore that your

Margaret Cho: 36:34

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 36:34

kid. I feel like all the things I've been looking at recently that has come up and I was like, well, gays reading, I need to be the one to talk about it the

Margaret Cho: 36:41

Wonderful.

Jason Blitman: 36:42

What was that like growing up in a gay bookstore in San Francisco?

Margaret Cho: 36:47

we had, um, famous writers like Armistead Mopan would do book signings there and,

Jason Blitman: 36:52

Previous gays reading guest.

Margaret Cho: 36:54

a great guy. He's a great guy. And, um, you know, we had, uh, like a lot of sold a lot of Quentin Crisp. We had a lot of John Waters. We had a lot of, um, Ouija. Like, you know, the photography books, lots of fashion books. Like, you know, so, and then we had a rolling rack, like a wind up rack with, with Harlequin romances, but for men. So it was like, um, you know, a man with a tank top and cut off jean shorts standing by a lake in the moonlight.

Jason Blitman: 37:26

Did he have long flowy

Margaret Cho: 37:27

Long flowy hair and the novel be called Cobalt and different shades of blue, you know, and you had these like gay romance novels and honcho magazine and honcho, uh, blue boy and all those things. So, um, I just remember growing up like around all of the stuff and always reading, like reading was like everything, you

Jason Blitman: 37:54

Were you reading Cobalt?

Margaret Cho: 37:56

Um, I was reading, I, I, Cobalt Cut, so it was kind of boring to me, I guess.

Jason Blitman: 38:00

Oh,

Margaret Cho: 38:00

It was like, don't know what this is about. All those sort of romance novels were sort of boring to me. Um, I was just more into, like, I love the John Waters, I love the Cookie Mueller. Cook, Dr. Cookie Mueller was a great writer. Um, Anything that was sort of about film or anything that was about like just, uh, the satanic bible, I love, like, I love that kind of stuff. Like to me, anything transgressive, um, you know, so

Jason Blitman: 38:29

were you at that point?

Margaret Cho: 38:31

probably 10, 8, you know, that was like my whole upbringing.

Jason Blitman: 38:37

Yeah, that's so cool. And so, but you were always a reader.

Margaret Cho: 38:40

Always a reader, even like just trashy stuff, like I love a, I love a beauty, like when a celebrity puts out a beauty book, like there's one, like a Diane Von Furstenberg that's really good, the Sophia Loren is really good, the Raquel Welch one was really like, exacting, and,

Jason Blitman: 38:56

Was there anything that you took away from any of those books

Margaret Cho: 38:58

A horrible recipe that Raquel Welch had, which was like, No salt. It was like every green vegetables, like seven green vegetables, no salt and water. And you just boil it. What an awful concoction.

Jason Blitman: 39:12

And what's that supposed to do for You Like,

Margaret Cho: 39:14

eat it every

Jason Blitman: 39:15

your skin nicer

Margaret Cho: 39:15

Yeah, it was like just, you just get your vegetables in by hook or by crook. Like she was like, it's not about how delicious it is. It's not amusing to anyone if you eat bread. That's what she said. It's not amusing. And I'm like, you know what? I think it is kind of amusing to me. But it was like, uh, It was a, I love a beauty book. Like, to me that's, Marlene Dietrich has the best because hers is the ABCs. So hers is set out like a dictionary. Or like a, Yeah, like a dictionary or like, I don't know, like a thesaurus or something. Like it's like a, Every letter has a word that will bring you to beauty. It's a really

Jason Blitman: 39:55

I have to find this.

Margaret Cho: 39:57

That's a really good one. The Marlena Dietrich's ABCs to beauty. Really

Jason Blitman: 40:01

That is insane. I have to read it just because, like, how can there be that many letters? Or how can each letter have a

Margaret Cho: 40:07

Each one has a thing. And I think Marlena Dietrich's recipe for beauty was drink only hot water. Uh, no alcohol, only hot water, not cold water, not a soda. For, for God forbid, and eat only every three days. And, and no butter, only, um, lard, like pig fat. No butter, but if you have to put something on your bread, it's, um, like lard. Which, uh, and then if you sleep,

Jason Blitman: 40:43

is for lard.

Margaret Cho: 40:45

Ellis Verlark. If you sleep, it's better for you if you sleep with someone. It can be a child, it can be an animal, it can be a man. Better, better if it's like a, an offspring or an animal because that recharges your batteries when you sleep next to a human being. Yes,

Jason Blitman: 41:03

to find this book so that I

Margaret Cho: 41:04

a good one. You got to find it. It's really good.

Jason Blitman: 41:06

I'm sure it's like out of print or something.

Margaret Cho: 41:07

But at that, I think in the sixties and the seventies and like maybe probably the fifties too, it was like, they would just get like an actress and then, you know, you would write a beauty Bible or beauty book about sort of their memoir, but it was also like a guide to beauty. Um, which we don't have anymore. Maybe the only person that does it, um, is probably Dita Von Teese because she's so like retro coded, but,

Jason Blitman: 41:31

Right. Because I was going to say, it's very like an anti beauty movement now, right? It's like not about the beauty.

Margaret Cho: 41:36

Or you'll have like a wellness. Influencer maybe write a book of like smoothie recipes or something, but you don't really have sort of a beauty read my regimen

Jason Blitman: 41:46

No. No one's talking about lard in the

Margaret Cho: 41:48

No, no,

Jason Blitman: 41:49

a shame, maybe.

Margaret Cho: 41:51

we miss it

Jason Blitman: 41:52

We do. Um, okay, so that's what you were reading once upon a time. What are you reading now?

Margaret Cho: 41:57

Today my book is very good. It's hunger by Roxanne gay who I I love her writing Which I only read I don't read her books I read her like art or magazine articles and opinion pieces and I'm like Very much avid reader of her kind of daily output as a writer. Yeah, but I've not actually written, read any of the books that she, books that she's written. So this is the first Roxane Gay book I've read and it's just devastating. Um, it's a really, it's, it, she writes so simply and it, it, it almost states, like, when you're a writer that good, you don't have to reach.

Jason Blitman: 42:40

Mm.

Margaret Cho: 42:40

you, you can be as simple and the chapters are like one page or two pages and it, you can be as simple as that and, um, she gets to the core of what she's talking about, which is just, you know, it's a book about hunger and her relationship with her body and it's really, I, I identify so much with it and I really, I admire her. Mm

Jason Blitman: 43:03

I'm not a huge fan of Goodreads as an app to track books, but Roxane Gay writes reviews on Goodreads, and her reviews are like four sentences long, but they are profound. Ha ha

Margaret Cho: 43:19

really could be a comedian too. Like she's just really, um, she cuts to the bone, you know, and it's really, it's a really hilarious sometimes, but yeah, she's really great. Along with her. I, yeah, I think she's just so incredible, but I, I, I've been in an Eve Babitz. Um, only Eve Babitz.

Jason Blitman: 43:38

like a kick.

Margaret Cho: 43:39

Like, Oh, I read like use Hollywood and then all of, uh, sex and rage. And then all of like these, just her writing style is so weird. But then also her, I've been reading her biographies and stuff. And like, it's just, I want to live in the LA that she was living in. Not necessarily in the LA that I live in. And I, I recognize her LA, but I was, it's not like that anymore. She's great.

Jason Blitman: 44:05

Yeah, and I'm, part of why I'm doing this is because when I, I'm a late in life reader, and all of a sudden when I started talking about books that I was reading, all of my friends were like, Oh, I just read such and such. I just read such and such. I was like, Wait a minute, everyone's a reader and no, and we've not talked about this before. And so every single person I've talked to for this series has like, Oh, I'm reading a 10 books at a time. I just talked to James Scully,

Margaret Cho: 44:30

Oh, I love my, my, my fully scully, my baby scully, yes.

Jason Blitman: 44:34

adorable. He's reading two books at a time, and I'm just like, who would have thought, James Scully?

Margaret Cho: 44:39

yeah. Well, you gotta read. Well, I, I read to, I, I have a specific time that I read every day to go to

Jason Blitman: 44:45

What's that?

Margaret Cho: 44:46

But I read to go to sleep. Yeah, I read, um, so that I'm not looking at a screen. It's like the one time a day that I'm not looking at a screen. And I actually read a physical book.

Jason Blitman: 44:56

Can you manage, like, more than three pages before falling asleep? Because I have a I can't read before bed, because I'll read a

Margaret Cho: 45:03

It depends on what I'm reading. Sometimes it's so exciting, I have to, I have to stay up. You know, like, I have to limit, like, I can't do any Patricia Highsmith or else I'm up all night.

Jason Blitman: 45:13

Right. Well, Right. Then there's like the opposite

Margaret Cho: 45:15

it's like, doing coke. Like, you know, like, I can't even do a line of Patricia Highsmith because I'll fucking be up for days.

Jason Blitman: 45:22

Oh my God. That's So,

Margaret Cho: 45:24

know, you just have to like, Figure out what it is, but I like Eve Babbitt's because it's just very calming. Roxanne Gay, it's much more emotional and like, it's like, you know, it's a little hard to read before bed because you just get stuck by it and you want to think about it, but um, you know, yeah, it definitely depends.

Jason Blitman: 45:45

Yeah. Um, I wrote to our, our friend

Margaret Cho: 45:50

Oh, Reese, my baby Reese, yes. I love that

Jason Blitman: 45:54

this. She was incredible. Loved having her on the

Margaret Cho: 45:57

She's a great

Jason Blitman: 45:58

is so

Margaret Cho: 45:59

She's such a

Jason Blitman: 45:59

Such a good writer. Well, that was my first, uh, little, uh, not red flag. Red flags are bad. But that was my first, like, ears, uh, moment where I was like, Margaret Cho? In conversation with R. O.? She's clearly a reader.

Margaret Cho: 46:16

I I love that book and I love her writing and I just love her, you know, she's so interesting and her process is so Amazing and I mean, I just love the way that that book is laid out and how she's you know Going about these stories and, and how you're going into this very intimate story that's really sexy and really hot, but also kind of like, it's very, it's very deep. I just, I'm so into her

Jason Blitman: 46:45

I know. It's like a, it's like a slim book, but really packs a punch. For our listeners, we're talking about Exhibit by R. O. Kwon, and it's

Margaret Cho: 46:52

Amazing. Mm

Jason Blitman: 46:54

your 2002 special, you talked about so much gay culture being in the media at the time. Reflecting back on that, are you like, What was I thinking? There was hardly any gay culture compared to today. I guess it's all relative.

Margaret Cho: 47:09

like relative to like, I mean, it's like so weird to think of. And most of the gay culture was commandeered by straight people. It was like straight people being gay for our benefit, which is like, so weird to think about what we would accept because we were just so like starving for anything. But I still think like, was the beginnings of feeling like you were being seen and heard, so that's good, but not enough.

Jason Blitman: 47:36

Yeah, it was, it was interesting watching that now. I was like, wow, amazing that that's how it felt

Margaret Cho: 47:42

Yeah, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 47:44

Um, all right, so we've talked about what you're reading, what's, what's going on? What are you, what are you doing in your life? What are you promoting? You're going on tour. you're gonna be in some, some cities.

Margaret Cho: 47:53

tour. I'm also on the new TV show Percy Jackson with Scholl um

Jason Blitman: 48:00

I that, wait, that's so funny. I did the original casting for the off-Broadway production of the musical. The Lightning Thief?

Margaret Cho: 48:08

Incredible. That's great. That's

Jason Blitman: 48:10

Oh, that's so funny.

Margaret Cho: 48:11

I am playing, um, a, a very phantasmagorical creature. The show is very, very wild and so it's exciting. I have a music album coming out. Um, and it's gay pop. You know, the gay, gay pop

Jason Blitman: 48:25

What? Insane.

Margaret Cho: 48:30

realm of like. Like, Chapel, Rhone, and you know, like, pop music that I'm very excited about. So that'll be, um, later this year. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 48:38

also just talked to Lea Delaria.

Margaret Cho: 48:40

love Leah.

Jason Blitman: 48:41

Amazing. But also, huge reader, and freakin musician! Like the two of you, I can't stand it!

Margaret Cho: 48:47

such a beautiful singer, like, she's just, she's outstanding, you know, she's really incredible. So, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:55

You're such a multi hyphenate, I'm obsessed. I'm so grateful that you're here. You have said learning keeps you young, and I think reading is one of those things that

Margaret Cho: 49:05

That's right. That's right.

Jason Blitman: 49:07

keep us young. And frankly, you know, part of this too, it's like spreading the gospel of reading. Everyone's doing it, people. Margaret Cho's reading. We all should be reading. it. gives you joy and pleasure. Is there something about reading that brings you the most joy?

Margaret Cho: 49:22

Well, it's intimate. You know, because it's a conversation between you and the author.

Jason Blitman: 49:27

Mm.

Margaret Cho: 49:28

know? And so, maybe that's why it's not as, like, sort of, people don't talk about it as much. Although, I think that they do now, sort of, on, like, social media and book talk and stuff like that. Where people are really talking about reading. But, yeah. It is just the quietest moment between you and somebody else, you know, there's words going into your brain, which I think is just, it's incredible. And we've been doing it for centuries.

Jason Blitman: 49:52

Yeah. Oh my god. That's very true. Words going into my brain. What a special way to think about

Margaret Cho: 49:58

The best.

Jason Blitman: 49:59

Margaret Cho. Fabulous guest gay reader. Thank you for joining us today.

Margaret Cho: 50:03

you.

Jason Blitman: 50:05

So nice to meet you.

Margaret Cho: 50:06

Nice to meet you. And, and Millie.

Jason Blitman: 50:09

And Millie, oh my god, she's such a drama queen.

Margaret Cho: 50:12

That girl.

Jason Blitman: 50:14

Thank you rivers. Thank you, Margaret Cho. Uh, incredible obsessed. Everyone go follow us on social media at. He is reading. If you like and subscribe, if you like what you're hearing sheriffs with your friends, like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, leave us a five star review means so much. Very helpful. Thank you all so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day and see you next week. Yeah.