0:00

Hi there and welcome back to Gays reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And before we get to the theme song and the main portion of the episode, I wanted to acknowledge that this is the first episode to air following the election. And we're living in a time where it's good to be reminded that books and this podcast in particular. Are inherently political. As a show that proudly centers, queer voices, Gays reading has always been a space for amplifying LGBTQ plus an ally authors and sharing stories from the margins. As a cis-gender white man. I recognize the privilege that I hold. And my goal as host is to use that privilege responsibly. To elevate marginalized voices and to create a safe space. That will always feel safe, supportive. And empowering for everyone who joins us. This podcast will continue to be a platform for authentic stories and a place where we can celebrate uplift. And fight for the rights of all. So before we dive into today's episode, I want to highlight the issue of book Manning, which threatens the very foundation of free expression and access to diverse stories. If you're looking for ways to support, I encourage you to check out resources from organizations like the American library associations office for intellectual freedom. Penn America. And local advocacy groups working to combat censorship and schools and libraries. Our guests gay reader from last week, Brian Derrick his organization. Oath can also point you in the right direction, focusing on different book bands around the country, and you can learn more at oath. Dot vote. And I also highly recommend taking a listen to his portion of last week's episode. he talks a little bit about, uh, we used to move forward following the election, regardless of what the outcome might've been. The resources can help us all continue to stand against book bands and ensure that everyone has the right to read and discover freely. And how can you support Gays reading as an independent podcast? The best way to support is by leaving a review on apple podcasts and sharing us with your friends. You can follow the podcast on Instagram at Gays reading. And you can. Like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so that you can help with our numbers, which allows other people to find the podcast more easily. On today's episode, we have the debut memoir S Oliver Radclyffe talking to us about his memoir, frightened the horses and today's guest gay reader is the tremendous Roxane gay. nothing late coming back the week after the election hearing from a trans man and a queer black woman. Both of their bios can be found in the show notes. Thank you all for being here. Thank you for your continued support. And now. Onto the Jonty theme song. Gays reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gays reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays reading.

Jason Blitman: 3:22

we're here to talk about your book, Frighten the Horses, your new memoir, but before we get into that, because it's heavy? Is that a word? Heavy? Maybe it's not the right word,

Oliver Radclyffe: 3:31

it's like heavy and light and equal doses.

Jason Blitman: 3:34

It's, but it is serious,

Oliver Radclyffe: 3:36

is serious, yes.

Jason Blitman: 3:38

There's something I wanted to talk to you At some point in the You talk about a debate at a dinner party. about whether or not narwhals are real.

Oliver Radclyffe: 3:49

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 3:50

Oliver, I had to Google.

Oliver Radclyffe: 3:52

That

Jason Blitman: 3:53

I literally,

Oliver Radclyffe: 3:54

a real thing, right?

Jason Blitman: 3:55

no, but also I from like the claymation Frosty the snowman thing, I like knew I've known of narwhals, but I never,

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:04

you always see them in cartoon form and they look like a cartoon because nobody has a long spiky nose like that. That can't be, it's like a unicorn. That's gotta be a made

Jason Blitman: 4:14

it's like a whale. It's like a dolphin

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:16

a dolphin unicorn, so it can't possibly be real.

Jason Blitman: 4:18

or like a beluga unicorn. And I literally was like, I didn't know. And sure enough, they are. They're real.

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:26

I'm really glad that I brought that to the world. If that's my one contribution, the visibility of narwhals, then I think, I've done my part. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:35

Little did you know this was a narwhal

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:38

It's a novel, it's a novel, I'm gonna rebrand it, actually, I'm gonna

Jason Blitman: 4:42

They're not just mystical creatures. They're

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:45

exactly, yeah, we gotta start, it's not an ideology.

Jason Blitman: 4:49

Wait at the dinner party. Where did you fall? Do you remember?

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:53

No, I was trying to explain it to my children.

Jason Blitman: 4:55

Oh.

Oliver Radclyffe: 4:56

I think, I can't remember, I think I didn't think they were real, and of course my children did because they believed in everything. Because to my children, unicorns are real, fairies are

Jason Blitman: 5:06

Okay.

Oliver Radclyffe: 5:06

mermaids are real. So therefore, a narwhal must be real, and I'm like, no a narwhal's not real. So I think I probably did exactly what you did and googled it, and then was enlightened and delighted.

Jason Blitman: 5:17

I have so many people that I know who are listening to this right now rolling their eyes at me being like You're

Oliver Radclyffe: 5:21

Yeah, but that's okay. It's an education, and we have to be very patient with people who don't understand, because everybody needs to get educated in their own time, right? That was my process.

Jason Blitman: 5:34

So usually I would ask people for an elevator pitch of their book but instead I think we could talk about your cover and the title. Because I feel like that, those things sort of becomes the elevator pitch. So can you share the quote that Frighten the Horses comes

Oliver Radclyffe: 5:54

okay. So it comes from a a British actress called Mrs. Patrick Campbell. Back in the 1950s when Homosexuality was still illegal in Britain, and she was interviewed by, I think, the London Times. Don't quote me on that. About, about the fact that there were a couple of gay people in the chorus of the play that she was in. And She was asked her opinion on this and she said, darling, I don't care what they do in private as long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses. And it became this very famous quote in England to advocate for just keeping it all behind closed doors. And if you're going to do these indecent things, just don't talk about it. Zero visibility, closeted status, all the rest of it. And and that's how I was brought up. I was brought up in that kind of society where everything that's not normal gets kept behind closed doors, and so I turned it into a proposal that we all go out into the streets and frighten horses.

Jason Blitman: 6:51

For anyone who doesn't have an imagination, or isn't very good at context clues, what would happen if you did frighten the horses?

Oliver Radclyffe: 7:03

I think what would happen and what I thought would happen are two different things.

Jason Blitman: 7:08

I guess quite literally, if there are horses

Oliver Radclyffe: 7:11

Oh I see.

Jason Blitman: 7:12

were to

Oliver Radclyffe: 7:13

horses, oh they would rear and the carriage that somebody was in would get thrown and then would get trampled to death and there would be chaos and mayhem and carnage and the end of world order and societal collapse. Basically. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:27

So please don't

Oliver Radclyffe: 7:28

So don't do that. Don't do

Jason Blitman: 7:30

but

Oliver Radclyffe: 7:31

No, be you, but don't be you anywhere in public. So very quietly, please. And that was a response of one of my father's friends. In fact, probably more than one, but I was only told about the one. When I finally came out was like why it and I'm using my previous pronouns because I'd just come out as a lesbian and why does she have to tell everybody if she wants to do this, why can't she just keep it behind closed doors? And of course, that was what my ex husband who I was married to at the time was trying to get me to do.

Jason Blitman: 8:00

So that's the

Oliver Radclyffe: 8:01

So that's the title.

Jason Blitman: 8:02

The cover is a fantastic drawing of a person who we cannot tell their identity because they're covered in black motorcycle gear with a helmet on, riding a motorcycle out of a little shed. And the one perhaps gender identifying item is a fallen heel,

Oliver Radclyffe: 8:31

A Louboutin shoe. With the red sole to identify

Jason Blitman: 8:35

the red soul, huh. And the visual with the title. Because this is an audio medium, slash, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. The visual with the title looks as though there's this person hopping on the motorcycle to go off and frighten the horses, because they say, screw that, I'm gonna go do it anyway. And they've left their shoe behind, almost Cinderella esque. What does the cover mean to you? And I think, again, that will

Oliver Radclyffe: 9:02

the

Jason Blitman: 9:02

sum up what the book really

Oliver Radclyffe: 9:03

cover has its own story because when I was when my, all my, I have four children. So when my children were little we used to read all of the Jeffers books. All of the Jeffers is an illustrator and a writer. He's Irish. We grew up on his books. My house was like covered in them when we were younger. And I always had this dream that if I actually managed to finish this memoir and get it published that he would design the cover for me. And when I mentioned it to Roxane Gay, my editor, she contacted Oliver because she knew him, I didn't know that at the time, and asked him if he would do it. And Oliver said, no, I'm too busy with my own work, I don't do covers for other people. And Roxane put a little gentle pressure on him and just said, look, just read and then make a decision. And Oliver wrote to me afterwards and said that he pulled the book out of his bag On an overseas flight like it was leftover homework that he didn't want to get to and and he said by the end of the flight he'd finished it and he was and and then he just did the design and sent it to Roxanne without even and it just encapsulates, I, I nearly cried when I saw it because it just encapsulates the whole story of this really weird, winding, messed up journey that I went through to find. my identity, which involves being a motorcyclist when I was in my 20s and then getting married and, masquerading as this sort of heterosexual housewife. And we moved from upper class England to the Connecticut suburbs. And, um, and that's what the little hut is, it's like one of those Connecticut barns that you see peppered across the Connecticut countryside. So it has all these little bits from different parts of my story in this one cover and the horse's hoofs coming out of the barn underneath the motorcycle. He just couldn't have designed a more perfect cover.

Jason Blitman: 10:54

I, it really, tells a beautiful story to cover itself, and thank you for sharing that. I didn't know.

Oliver Radclyffe: 10:59

Wow. You've got some motorcycles outside. That is leaf blowing.

Jason Blitman: 11:03

That is leaf

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:03

That is leaf blowing. They've got

Jason Blitman: 11:05

What is

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:06

wild leaf blowers going out there. It's the soundtrack. They're trying to create the motorcycle soundtrack to the story that we're talking about.

Jason Blitman: 11:13

While we have the ambient sound, do you, are you still a rider?

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:17

I know I'm not, and I wish I was. I mean, I am. I was trans

Jason Blitman: 11:21

in your heart and soul?

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:22

before I came out as trans, so I will always be a motorcyclist, even when I don't have a motorcycle.

Jason Blitman: 11:27

That's

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:28

At the moment, practicalities override My desire to just have two wheels and disappear because I do still have three of my four children at home And I need to not break a leg at the moment So yeah, that's gonna wait, three more years until the last of my kids leave home and then yeah I'm gonna buy myself probably

Jason Blitman: 11:46

Oh, and that's when you're next, not you're next, but then there will be another

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:50

then there will be another book. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 11:51

that motorcycle

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:52

almost certainly Yes, at least there is gonna

Jason Blitman: 11:55

like a cross country

Oliver Radclyffe: 11:56

I know cross country trans ride on a motorbike. How good would that be?

Jason Blitman: 11:59

Yes, a transcontinental ride

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:03

Perfect. Okay, that's my next book. We're done.

Jason Blitman: 12:06

You're

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:06

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 12:06

So okay, so your story this comes up in the book, but I would say it also sums up what the book is about. You talk about being in England, a faithful daughter, in Connecticut, an emerging lesbian, and in New York, a It is like the ultimate, the book, the subtitle could be the ultimate guide to code switching and how to get to where you need to be.

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:31

yes, I guess so and disguise the art of disco the subtle art of disguise and Not being who you are and trying to figure out how to be that person against the odds

Jason Blitman: 12:40

absolutely. And I think so much of

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:44

There they come again.

Jason Blitman: 12:45

the bike not bike is back. It feels very

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:47

It does. Yeah. No, it's.

Jason Blitman: 12:49

It's a little too butch

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:50

know. I feel it's good though. It's great. Giving a raw edge to this conversation,

Jason Blitman: 12:54

It

Oliver Radclyffe: 12:55

some heft in there.

Jason Blitman: 12:56

if I'm going to be in this like dainty room with a

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:00

Yeah. No, that's great.

Jason Blitman: 13:01

might as well have the noise,

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:03

The butch noise coming in from the

Jason Blitman: 13:04

Yeah. Speaking of butch noises,

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:08

Just bring that. It's the, there's the one identity I basically never had. Bizarrely.

Jason Blitman: 13:13

is butch.

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:14

I bypassed butch. I went straight from femme to non binary to trans. Without really going through a butch phase. by the time I started transitioning Non binary was a thing.

Jason Blitman: 13:26

So

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:27

Yeah. So there's the little bit of butch that we've been

Jason Blitman: 13:29

We'll go wield a

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:30

Yeah, exactly. Oh, I did once briefly have the kind of the car keys on the leather thing that clipped to my.

Jason Blitman: 13:37

Oh, okay.

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:38

That was

Jason Blitman: 13:38

that was your butch afternoon.

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:40

butch art that lasted a couple of months. So I did do butch for a couple of months. I got it in there.

Jason Blitman: 13:44

Yeah. You claim

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:45

snucked it. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 13:46

But the stupid leaf blower is getting me all over the place. So too, again, before we get too heavy, cause there's still so much to talk about, you always wanted to play Henry

Oliver Radclyffe: 13:59

Mm hmm.

Jason Blitman: 13:59

Who do we need to call?

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:01

Yeah, I know. What? To actually play him?

Jason Blitman: 14:04

Yeah, it's your

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:06

It's my time to play Henry Higgins? Oh, I don't know if I could now. Although

Jason Blitman: 14:09

What are you talking about?

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:11

up Henry Higgins, if you queered up that whole play. Did you know that, so

Jason Blitman: 14:15

It's all

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:16

the quote, the Mrs. Bit Patrick Campbell. Quote that it was the Pygmalion that she was in when they asked her that question.

Jason Blitman: 14:24

Oh, no

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:24

so it all comes around in a full circle. But yeah, no,

Jason Blitman: 14:27

such a fun little

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:28

yeah, I totally, and I think I need to maybe need to be Henry Higgins for Halloween just so that I can get the wingtip, I've got the wingtip rose now,

Jason Blitman: 14:36

You're still in Connecticut? There has to be a community theater that will put

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:41

can you imagine? Jesus. Me doing, queering up the community theatre in Connecticut. It would be amazing. Do you think we should

Jason Blitman: 14:48

Henry Higgins is like so foppish

Oliver Radclyffe: 14:50

He really is, he's a dandy. He's so gay. He could never sleep with Eliza. He just wants to have that slightly homoerotic sort of BDSM relationship with her.

Jason Blitman: 15:01

He's like a control freak, a dandy

Oliver Radclyffe: 15:02

He's like a dandy control freak and she's the diva that he needs to have in his life in order to actualize his feminine side. It could be really fun.

Jason Blitman: 15:10

I'm manifesting this

Oliver Radclyffe: 15:10

let's do this. Let's do this. I will get my friends around together and we'll get it done. The West End Ghouls, darling.

Jason Blitman: 15:16

I'm like not a hundred percent kidding. Like I, this needs to happen on your

Oliver Radclyffe: 15:21

A five foot three Henry Higgins. I love it.

Jason Blitman: 15:23

I don't see the

Oliver Radclyffe: 15:24

No, neither do I. You're absolutely right.

Jason Blitman: 15:26

During, throughout the book, you talk about reading a lot. One of the things you expressly talk about is how you even read a book to impress a woman once. Was that commonplace for

Oliver Radclyffe: 15:39

Oh, yes. Oh yeah. Very much everything I did was to impress women. I mean, That was like my whole life. I think I I've stopped doing it now, but yeah, it was because I didn't have any other way fulfilling this need that I had inside me for that kind of relationship because I was so closeted. I was so closeted. I wasn't really even aware. That's what those feelings were.

Jason Blitman: 16:02

So it could be as simple as someone said, Oh, I loved this book. And you're saying, Oh, I'm going to read that book because you loved it and I want

Oliver Radclyffe: 16:08

Yeah, the same girl was into The Smiths, and I swear to God I know every single lyric of every single Smiths song that was ever recorded. As was, and now I love The Smiths, it got me some good culture. But yeah, that was my way in because I had no other way in. So it was like a cultural, if I could connect with them culturally. I always,

Jason Blitman: 16:27

is a great example. Are there other things like that where you're like, Oh, I would have never discovered blank, whether it's this book or this artist or whatever. If you did, if you were not lusting

Oliver Radclyffe: 16:36

yeah, Francis Bacon. I I fell in love with Francis Bacon because somebody I was in love with, we met him in a pub in England and I can't remember the context, but we went into this pub and I think she knew somebody and he was sitting in the corner of the pub holding court surrounded by his minions. And I had no idea. I was young. I had no idea who Francis Bacon was. So I was like, Oh yes, I know who he is. That's amazing. And then afterwards I quickly went home and looked him up and then bought lots of books. Francis Bacon books. Yeah, that was part of what I did.

Jason Blitman: 17:05

I love that. Speaking of books, you rattle off so many queer books or queer authors who you sought out as you were on your journey. How does it feel to be one of those now. You are a queer author that when someone's on their journey, they're going to seek

Oliver Radclyffe: 17:20

I don't have the words for it. I really don't have the words for it. I went to a friend of mine put together when I, just about six months after I came out of the closet as a lesbian, so this was back in 2012 or something a friend of mine in England who worked for a gallery who represented Thomas Heatherwick, Brought him over to do an exhibition here in New York. And I went to the show and to the opening night and she introduced me to a bunch of friends of hers. And one was a writer and one was an artist and one was a musician and they were all talking. And then they turned to me and said what brought you to New York because of the accent? And I just stood there and I felt myself shrivel because I didn't want to say, Oh, my husband. And then admit that I was like a heterosexual married housewife with no job. And I wanted to say, I'm queer and I'm a writer and I couldn't cause I was still closeted and I hadn't got anything published at that stage. And I remember leaving that party, just feeling so small and so invisible and so nothing and thinking, I'm going to Do this. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna come out. I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna be able to say who I am. I'm gonna write. I'm gonna get published. And now here I am, 12 years later, and I've done it. It only took 12 years, but I got there.

Jason Blitman: 18:35

12 years and also you for all intents and purposes have lived a full

Oliver Radclyffe: 18:40

Yeah, I think I've lived. I think I've lived several lives, actually.

Jason Blitman: 18:44

Just rattling off the few examples of even the places that you've lived, you lived a different life in all those

Oliver Radclyffe: 18:50

Yeah. When I look back, it is extraordinary to see how many identify identities I have. lived through or taken on trying to find the person that I ended up being.

Jason Blitman: 19:03

Yeah. It's. Interesting. And I think something that the book does so beautifully is rather than seeing it as a coming out, it is really about a coming in. And I think because as a reader, we, or at least this reader, I won't speak for everyone. I don't want to make any assumptions that people are reading about the author before they read a book. But. you know where the book is going to end because I know you're a trans man.

Oliver Radclyffe: 19:32

There's no surprise. There's no surprises here.

Jason Blitman: 19:34

No, and so you're reading it and it's, and you're watching you strip away layers to find you inside, right? You it's this, you don't, you're not changing, you're not quote unquote transitioning, something in the book, you talk about how coming out as a lesbian was. Quote unquote, as simple as changing your partner, whereas coming out as trans is about changing yourself. I would argue as a reader, you didn't change. It was you uncovered.

Oliver Radclyffe: 20:02

I've written quite a lot recently about questioning the language that we use around transition and trying to find new language that more accurately. describes the experience. And I started talking about alignment. We're aligning ourselves. But I read recently that a trans writer called Xander Keeg, I think you pronounce his name has talked about emergence, has talked about transition as an emergence. And that feels much more accurate that you're just emerging as yourself and you're getting rid of all this stuff that isn't you, because a lot of transitioning is just getting rid of stuff. And that's, when I thought I had to change myself. What I was talking about was I'm actually going to have to change my physical body because that's what it came down to in the end is my fit, you know, who I am inside. I know it feels relatively genderless. I call myself a gender irrelevant transsexual because I just don't really feel like my gender is a thing. I'm just me. I'm just Oliver. But my outside, my body was just all wrong. And that's what had to change, which is, obviously quite a dramatic change. Although it's not really, once you get on the journey to start doing it, it's really very simple. It just feels like it's going to be very dramatic.

Jason Blitman: 21:11

Sure. And you also talk about looking in the mirror. and seeing a man in drag. And so if, if really all it is, quote, all it is sounds

Oliver Radclyffe: 21:22

No, no, No, but it is all it is. It is

Jason Blitman: 21:24

but if all it is like stripping the drag away.

Oliver Radclyffe: 21:27

There's that wonderful video of David Bowie in in, in, in Boys Keep Swinging. I don't think that's the name of the song, but you know the one and he's dressed in drag and he just rips off his wig and he smears the makeup off his face. And I'm like, that's what I want to do. That's why David Bowie is such the trans masculine icon, because he was doing all of that stuff. But that's what it felt like. I felt like if I did, before I transitioned, before I even knew I was trans, I couldn't leave the house without makeup on because I felt too vulnerable and I realized afterwards it was because I thought that somebody would notice that I was a man if I wasn't wearing makeup, which is bizarre because I didn't, I hadn't even recognized that I was a man. But if I just felt like if I didn't do female well enough, somebody would notice that there was something. Awfully wrong.

Jason Blitman: 22:16

Yeah. There are all of those things that we do subconsciously and not even realize or don't even understand why. And then when we learn more about ourselves,

Oliver Radclyffe: 22:25

to make sense.

Jason Blitman: 22:26

we look back and we're like,

Oliver Radclyffe: 22:28

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:31

Yeah.

Oliver Radclyffe: 22:32

motorcycle when I was in my twenties because I didn't, I did, I literally did not know trans was a thing at that stage. So I think the, the word sex change had been brought up once when I was a little kid. And my brother just made out like this, I was like six and he was eight, and he made out like it was the thing that happened in your sleep. And so I then got in a panic because I thought it was going to happen to me, because I thought I was like the perfect candidate to just wake up as a boy, given that I wanted to be a boy but I didn't. want to be a boy having been a girl before because that was like really disgusting. At least in my little six year old mind it was. And so when I was in my 20s and I started riding bikes everybody was like, oh, she's being such a, she's being, she's going through her rebellious phase. And I wasn't, I was just trying to be me. and buying a motorbike and hanging out with the boys and wearing black leather and getting my hair cut, that was all part of me trying to manifest my identity in the closest way I could given that I was too afraid to come out as queer and I didn't know that trans was the thing.

Jason Blitman: 23:31

Something that you just said, or how you just said something, I think is so useful to talk about the way that people talk about queerness, the way that there's no one way to be queer. There's no one way to be trans. There's no one way to experience all of the things that we as queer people go through. And I'm curious to ask about the way you've talked about your pronouns, because I think there are plenty of trans people who would say they never want to hear dead pronouns ever again. And I, and it, as a consumer of your content, it almost seems like it's easier to talk about a previous part of your life. That way. Can you address

Oliver Radclyffe: 24:14

Yeah, I can. I made the conscious decision when I started writing this memoir that I was going to use my dead name and my dead pronouns because I really couldn't write the book without doing that because the way the book is written is that the narrative is very in the moment. There's very little kind of retrospective perspective. So I try and keep the reader with Nikki, the person. In the place and in the mindset of who Nikki was then and then carry the reader through this journey with me, because that's really how I wanted to show it. And, that involved doing two things that were not hard, but two things that were a decision that I had to make. One, I had to use my previous name and pronouns. And two, I had to admit. how little I knew when I started this journey. And, I really and how sheltered my upbringing had been and how how deep my internalized homophobia and transphobia was and how binary my thinking and how unbelievably ignorant I was. So it's, it was excruciating to look back on that person that I was and go, okay, I've really got to bring this person to life on the page, but I couldn't tell the story without really. Going there. So I did all of those things. And I guess I just slightly got into a habit of it. Now, I think what I often do when I'm talking about my previous identity, my pre transition identity is I use the pronouns that the person who I'm thinking about seeing me at the time would have used. So I find myself still doing this if I'm talking about somebody who still misgenders me in the here and now, and if I'm relating something that they have done or said. I will use the pronouns that they would have used for me to highlight the incongruence between how they are seeing me and how I am and how I identify. So I really play with it all depending on what the circumstances are,

Jason Blitman: 26:15

Yeah.

Oliver Radclyffe: 26:16

which I know is not usual.

Jason Blitman: 26:18

Again, it's not fair to say not usual because it's usual for you and that's all that

Oliver Radclyffe: 26:23

Yeah, and also I think that, there's no point in, I'm never going stealth. I'm never going to deny my history because this is what I've just written a memoir about. Anybody who knows me on any level is going to know that I used to identify as female and I identified as female for such a long time that trying to erase that part of my history is just, it's just silly. It's not, it's the majority of my life.

Jason Blitman: 26:45

Yeah,

Oliver Radclyffe: 26:45

And I think these different identities that I went through before I. Got to where I am now. They're all weirdly valid in their own way because they are all part of what made me who I am.

Jason Blitman: 26:58

course. And I think back to what I was saying earlier about the reader knows where the story is The whole time for me, I, it, for me, it was still Oliver's

Oliver Radclyffe: 27:08

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:10

you, Oliver is present throughout

Oliver Radclyffe: 27:13

you know you're gonna slough everything off and get to Oliver in the end. At least you hope you are.

Jason Blitman: 27:18

Yeah. And so it almost feels like that's part of what you're The way in which you talk about your history, your past, that sort of does that too.

Oliver Radclyffe: 27:25

very much

Jason Blitman: 27:25

anyway, thank you for sharing that. I think, people have a lot of questions when Saying oh, I would I would've never referred to you with those old

Oliver Radclyffe: 27:32

yeah but also I but I think that, that's a, also an important question to answer, which is that I can do that, but you can't. So it's that thing of, I get to make those choices because those microscopic decisions that have to be made in the moment can be made by me. But if anybody else refers to me as she is please don't do that.

Jason Blitman: 27:49

no.'cause you are telling your story and that is your journey and your choices to make for me. You have and always will be Oliver.

Oliver Radclyffe: 27:57

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 27:58

To the point where I literally have the song Oliver from the musical

Oliver Radclyffe: 28:01

Good. That's great. Awesome. We'll start there. Yeah. That's amazing.

Jason Blitman: 28:06

Okay, earlier you Wait, what do we want to talk about now? No, let's talk about coming out. Because that is a big part of your story too. Obviously, it's a big part of all of our stories. For better or for worse. I don't want to give anything away because we are spoiler free here on GaysReading, even though,

Oliver Radclyffe: 28:23

I do transition at

Jason Blitman: 28:25

all of our transitions at the end of the book. But this piece in particular, you were outed to your ex husband in a very, very, very

Oliver Radclyffe: 28:37

Interesting.

Jason Blitman: 28:38

way.

Oliver Radclyffe: 28:39

Can I spoiler this one? Yeah, I was, no.

Jason Blitman: 28:43

spoil this one.

Oliver Radclyffe: 28:44

but then how, what can I say without

Jason Blitman: 28:46

No, so I'm I want to talk about how did it feel being outed? Was it a relief?

Oliver Radclyffe: 28:51

Yes, it was a relief for about three hours, then it became even more horrifying than it had been before I was out it. So the buildup to that moment had been me trying, at that point when I was outed, I was married to a man and I had four very small children and I was living this, upper middle class life of a Connecticut suburban housewife with my enormous house with a lawn that went down to the lake and the ladies who lunch and everything that goes with that. And I had been married for 10 years by that point and I was utterly miserable and I was falling apart, literally falling apart. And I came out to my therapist and then came a couple of months of trying to work out what to do next because I really felt like I would be blowing up my entire life. My marriage, my children's lives, my parents, all these friends that I've made since moving to America. I just thought I would blow the whole thing apart. And yet I had this one friend who lived in New York and the first time I arrived in this country and I went down and I met her in a coffee shop in the East village, just a friend from childhood, who'd been living over here for, a decade by that stage. And she was part of the, East Finnish punk scene. And she was like really into the kind of counterculture queer community down there. And the first time we met, I was like, Oh God, I think these are my people. And I'm like completely in the wrong life and seeing it around me and seeing something that was suddenly accessible in a way that it really hadn't been in England. Pull towards that was immediate and relentless. And so when I got outed, in the way that we can't talk about.

Jason Blitman: 30:34

No, because everyone's gonna go

Oliver Radclyffe: 30:36

Everyone's going to go read the book to find out how I got outed. When I got outed I was because my husband's first reaction was, look, it's okay. It's fine. Don't, it's going to be fine. And I was like, Oh my God, he must have realized, or he's unhappy in the marriage too. And now we can start divorce proceedings and I can leave the house. Connecticut, I can go and live in Brooklyn and I can meet a woman and I can bring up my children in a queer community and everything's going to be great. And then of course he got home from work that night. And not to give you any more spoilers. Everything changed. Things changed.

Jason Blitman: 31:07

It like makes me wanna throw But

Oliver Radclyffe: 31:09

It kinda made me want to throw up for quite a long time as well. Several years, yes.

Jason Blitman: 31:13

I could imagine. When I was a teenager or I don't even I think I was maybe twelve or something and I had been out to myself but I hadn't come out to anybody else yet and On AOL instant messenger, somebody just asked me, are you gay? And it was someone who it was an older gay man or not. That sounds terrible. No, he was like three, he was like three or four years older than me. He was also a young person who was gay, who I looked up to. We were friends. And I think he nudged me out of the closet a little bit and that For me, it was a bit of a relief, just ask having someone ask the question versus needing to,

Oliver Radclyffe: 31:51

Come out.

Jason Blitman: 31:52

yeah, needing to say the

Oliver Radclyffe: 31:53

Yeah, I didn't, I got I got outed several times. So then I had that experience with my best friend, Elizabeth down in New York, who just came out and asked me, was just like, are you gay? And I'm like, wait, what? Excuse me. And that was amazing because I felt very validated because she knew me very well. And so she could see it. And that was lovely. And then I got outed much later. by this dreadful woman whose children went to my children's school.

Jason Blitman: 32:20

fucking Pandora.

Oliver Radclyffe: 32:21

I know, great character. But again, by that stage, it was like, thank you, Pandora. I never thought I would thank you for anything, but thank you for this, because it just it just

Jason Blitman: 32:32

I assume it's a

Oliver Radclyffe: 32:33

an open, it is a made up name. They are all made up names.

Jason Blitman: 32:37

Of course, but I'm obsessed that you chose Pandora, right? Opening, opening up Pandora's box.

Oliver Radclyffe: 32:42

right? You're very clever. Very clever.

Jason Blitman: 32:43

Yeah.

Oliver Radclyffe: 32:44

Not very subtle.

Jason Blitman: 32:46

Okay, so talking about coming out, that was the, a funny thing. I was shocked at how I literally burst into tears in the conversation that you had with your dad.

Oliver Radclyffe: 32:57

Yeah, you're not alone, so it's okay.

Jason Blitman: 32:59

Yeah, no, I'm sure I'm not alone. And again, I don't want to spoil anything, but did that conversation, would you say that really propelled you forward? Did that really

Oliver Radclyffe: 33:11

Oh, God, yes. Oh, God, yes. It's My relationship with my And this is, talking about something more serious. This is Something that I really do want people to hear and understand, which is that my relationship with my parents is completely different now than it was before I came out and before I transitioned. Because I did not realize how much their not being able to see me. affected me physically and mentally and they couldn't see me because I wasn't showing myself to them but it meant that whenever I was in their presence I was like almost vibrating with anxiety and it and that level of anxiety made me brittle and prickly and snappish, and it completely obliterated any possibility of there being any relationship between us. And it wasn't anything they were doing. It was just the physical reality of being in their presence and knowing that they had no idea who I was. And so after I transitioned, really, it took the transition to, to really get to that place where that just all fell away completely. And that is, we talk about dysphoria a lot, right? But I don't think people really understand the extent of what dysphoria is. It's not just like a feeling of discomfort because you're inhabiting the wrong sex, or you're born in the wrong body, or you're wearing the wrong clothes. It is this awful feeling of itchiness and discomfort and anxiety and brittleness that comes with not being seen by anybody. Because people are so convinced by what they see and they don't read past it, they don't look past it. Why should they? We don't. So if what is a female, that's where you stop. And living with that. There are two aspects of it. One is just living with a body or a presentation that feels uncomfortable. But the other one is, how you're being perceived by other people. And it just means you can't communicate with anybody because it's like there's this sort of, it's like there's a It's like there's a sheet of glass in front of you and somebody has painted a picture of a woman on the front of the glass and they can only see you just vaguely, a vague shape behind that picture and their eyes stop at that picture and that's how it feels walking through the world. It's Sylvia Plath's bell jar. It separates you from people.

Jason Blitman: 35:33

And the people on the outside don't necessarily know that, that the glass needs to get

Oliver Radclyffe: 35:37

No. And they're not doing anything wrong. They just, they can't get to you because you haven't broken the glass. And as you say, the only person who can break the glass is you.

Jason Blitman: 35:46

Yeah. So much of the book is about being seen, feeling seen expressing yourself, being loud in, in, in every sense of the word, and listening to your body, which I think not enough of us do on a baseline,

Oliver Radclyffe: 36:02

And I really wanted to talk about that because There's so much talk about how, gender issues are ideological. And if you're this kind of trans, and I can't speak for every kind of trans, but if you're my kind of trans, it's really not ideological. It is just, it's purely physical. I just, I have a male body and it was born wrong and I had to fix it in order to feel right. And it really is that simple. And so it's when I say, when I talk about transitioning, the complicated part of transitioning is getting to the point where you're saying, Okay. This is it. I'm trans. I need to transition. And that's why my transition doesn't happen until the end of the book. Cause by the time I'm there, it's like the rest of it is easy. We don't need to hear about, testosterone injections and, all the rest of it. It's just, it's not that interesting because the struggle for me was getting to that point of saying, okay, I am legitimately trans. I need to transition. And that was all in my body. And I really wanted to talk about that aspect of it because a lot of people, a lot of trans people can't talk about their bodies because it's not safe for them. And I feel like because of the kind of position of privilege that I'm in, I'm trans masculine, not trans feminine. I am 53. I live in a safe part of town. No one's coming after me yet. I can afford to have those kinds of conversations

Jason Blitman: 37:14

Yeah.

Oliver Radclyffe: 37:14

to explain that. For a huge amount of trans people, this is very rooted in the body.

Jason Blitman: 37:20

Yeah. No, it's, and I don't want to use the word simple because there's nothing about anything in the book that's simple, but it is put plainly in the book, right? My body is wrong. And it's

Oliver Radclyffe: 37:34

It is that simple. My body

Jason Blitman: 37:35

it is that

Oliver Radclyffe: 37:36

body is wrong. I need to fix it. It really is that simple. And even the fixing it part is that simple. It's a syringe in the thigh once a week and top surgery. It's not complicated, it's just, it's been made to appear so complicated that people think it's much more complicated than it is.'cause all the ideology surrounding it and the bad press and the pushback and the it really doesn't have to be as complicated as people make it out to be. It's just that it, in order to create and stoke the amount of fear that people are stoking it, it, it must be complicated. Otherwise, why would we be afraid of it?

Jason Blitman: 38:10

Similarly. And this doesn't give anything away, but someone later in the book, towards the end of the book, basically asks, where does it all end?

Oliver Radclyffe: 38:20

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 38:20

Every day there's a new

Oliver Radclyffe: 38:22

a new thing, a new identity.

Jason Blitman: 38:24

And it is, it was so infuriating for me to read because we are all changing every single day. Every single day. And it's, and for better or for worse, it's terrible to come to terms with.

Oliver Radclyffe: 38:42

but who stops? Nobody stops. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 38:45

So if tomorrow, you're plucking a hair out of somewhere that wasn't there the day

Oliver Radclyffe: 38:50

that's changing. It could be that simple. No, it's true. I think it was Kate Bornstein who said that age is the fourth gender. It is. We're all, particularly me, I'm 53, we're all growing old and God knows where my body goes from here, but it probably ain't good. But yeah, I'm growing into a grumpy old man and I love that. So that, my identity going forward is gonna be Grumpy Old Man and I'm quite looking forward to celebrating that as a identity that I can be proud of. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 39:17

Yeah, I just, whether it is the hair on the chin or it is, it could be as complicated as tomorrow you like crunchy peanut butter instead of plain peanut butter, right? And it,

Oliver Radclyffe: 39:29

Or tomorrow I start wearing feather boas and drag. I think it's unlikely, but you never

Jason Blitman: 39:33

Probably unlikely,

Oliver Radclyffe: 39:34

I've been there. Yeah, I've been through my drag phase. I don't need to go back there

Jason Blitman: 39:39

you were very good

Oliver Radclyffe: 39:40

I know, I really was, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 39:42

Yeah, and it just, have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that every day is different. So it's, it was very infuriating that why can't,

Oliver Radclyffe: 39:52

why can't you stop?

Jason Blitman: 39:53

Why can't the thing and none of us

Oliver Radclyffe: 39:55

But also, but it's like, why can't you stop because I like you now and I don't want you to be something else other than what you are now? And you would never ask that of somebody cisgender. You would never say, I like this I suppose there are women whose husbands do ask them of that. That ask that of them and therefore we have Botox and plastic surgery and dieting ourselves down to size zeros and all the rest of it. But it's not a good thing to ask

Jason Blitman: 40:25

Yeah. Anytime my husband talks about getting a mullet or something, I'd say,

Oliver Radclyffe: 40:31

Please don't.

Jason Blitman: 40:32

I guess I do that too, but

Oliver Radclyffe: 40:33

But that's not asking him to stop. That's just asking him not to make a, not to make a bad fashion choice, which is slightly different.

Jason Blitman: 40:39

Yeah, exactly. I'm not saying don't be you. I am

Oliver Radclyffe: 40:43

Don't be you with a mullet.

Jason Blitman: 40:44

can you think about it a little bit more deeply first? Write a memoir about it first, and

Oliver Radclyffe: 40:49

No mullets for anybody over the age of 25, I think. It's like women shouldn't wear jeans over the age of 50. What was that old thing? That women shouldn't wear jeans over the age of 50? Was that a thing in America? Oh yes, in England. Oh yeah, no, you were mutton dressed as lamb if you wore jeans over the age of 50. Come on, this is the background I came from. Seriously, no wonder I didn't know I was trans.

Jason Blitman: 41:10

Okay, speaking of, you talk about wanting to be the main character of a Dickens

Oliver Radclyffe: 41:14

Mm hmm.

Jason Blitman: 41:18

Tell me one with a happy ending.

Oliver Radclyffe: 41:20

maybe I don't want to be the main character of a Dickens novel. I just like the fashion, I wanted the little jaunty top hat and the tail coat and the cravat.

Jason Blitman: 41:29

What is stopping

Oliver Radclyffe: 41:30

Yeah, I know. I

Jason Blitman: 41:31

disappointed you're not wearing that on

Oliver Radclyffe: 41:32

did go through that phase as well, but that was before I transitioned. And now I'm in, I'd say, you know what? I just, I did do it all. I have my uncle's top cap. I've got a little tail coat. I never wore

Jason Blitman: 41:43

that doesn't really correspond with grumpy old

Oliver Radclyffe: 41:45

no, it doesn't. I've gone through that phase. Now, if I wore that out on the street, I never wore it out on the street. I wore it at home. I just dress up at home. Cause I'm weird. Yeah, no, I'm, I, that's again, been there, done that moving onto the next thing now.

Jason Blitman: 41:57

Okay, because you said that and I was like, Oliver, What the hell? They're all tragic. Why would you want to do that to yourself?

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:03

Because I thought my life was tragic. My life was tragic. It was full of yearning and unresolved shame. And my life, I was a victim of circumstances. The world was against me. I had a very tragic life. Until I woke up and said, yeah, I don't actually want to do this anymore.

Jason Blitman: 42:20

right. Now we're

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:21

Now I just want to go off and be happy and successful. Very much a mindset.

Jason Blitman: 42:26

Tiny Tim has rid of his

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:28

He has. He's got his Christmas pudding and his turkey.

Jason Blitman: 42:31

strong

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:32

Strapping lad.

Jason Blitman: 42:34

strapping man.

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:35

Or possibly a strong, strapping trans woman. Even better.

Jason Blitman: 42:39

Yes, or maybe that's you. Maybe you are now, you're 5'3 Maybe you're grown up

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:44

I'm grown up trying to do my, threw away my crotch. It was a miracle.

Jason Blitman: 42:49

A Christmas miracle. God bless us everyone. my god, you're like why did I go on

Oliver Radclyffe: 42:54

Yeah, I know, really. Seriously. But it's great. These are questions that nobody has asked me before.

Jason Blitman: 42:59

are narwhals real?

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:01

Depressing. Can your life be before you realize you don't want to be that character anymore?

Jason Blitman: 43:06

right, these are the hard hitting

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:08

they really are.

Jason Blitman: 43:08

Maybe most importantly, because I love a good date. So this is not in the book because you are now flourished into your full being. How has it been like going on dates and things as your most true self?

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:24

I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but I actually haven't been.

Jason Blitman: 43:28

Not a

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:28

Not a single one.

Jason Blitman: 43:30

Oliver,

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:31

know, but look, hear me out. Okay no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hear me out, right? I have justifications for this.

Jason Blitman: 43:38

I want to be a

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:39

okay no, you cannot be a matchmaker. So here are my reasons, right? Okay, here are my reasons.

Jason Blitman: 43:44

Okay.

Oliver Radclyffe: 43:45

I'm not saying never, I'm just saying I have found in the past, and I'm not doing that kind of, oh, I got hurt and I'm never dating again, but I have found in the past that being trans and dating, there is a risk that whoever you date, they're going to want you to be a little more of something or a little less of something, even with the best intentions, right?

Jason Blitman: 44:11

Yeah.

Oliver Radclyffe: 44:11

I've spent so long trying to get to here that I just can't compromise that at the moment.

Jason Blitman: 44:19

Yeah.

Oliver Radclyffe: 44:20

And I feel like if I start dating somebody, I just need some time to really enjoy being myself, right?

Jason Blitman: 44:27

Amen.

Oliver Radclyffe: 44:28

And then at some stage, and also I am still a solo parent of three kids. One's left for college, but I've still got three at home. So I don't exactly have a lot of time on my hands. Just, it works beautifully with my, I just love being able to go anywhere and do anything and spend the free time that I have with this widening circle of queer friends I've got. And also, I don't even know who I would date,

Jason Blitman: 44:51

Okay.

Oliver Radclyffe: 44:51

so I just,

Jason Blitman: 44:52

Do you have a copy of your book in front of you?

Oliver Radclyffe: 44:54

Yeah, I do. It's just here.

Jason Blitman: 44:59

TURN TO PAGE 116 AND READ THE FIRST TWO SENTENCES AND THIS WILL, I WANT OUR, I WANT MY LISTENERS TO UNDERSTAND

Oliver Radclyffe: 45:07

I can't believe you did this to me.

Jason Blitman: 45:11

I HARASSED YOU

Oliver Radclyffe: 45:11

I can't believe you did this to me. No, I'm not reading it. If you want to read what it says on page 116,

Jason Blitman: 45:19

YOU HAVE TO BUY

Oliver Radclyffe: 45:19

buy the book. I am not reading. Okay. So I'm okay. I'm leaning into this. Alright. you, this conversation's not ending there.

Jason Blitman: 45:28

Listen, I trust, I believe, I like want your, I want your best life, but

Oliver Radclyffe: 45:33

You do not believe me when you say

Jason Blitman: 45:35

I do,

Oliver Radclyffe: 45:36

Not dating.

Jason Blitman: 45:37

I do.

Oliver Radclyffe: 45:38

believe me either, but it just, it's just because I'm fine and I also, I'm quite lazy and I can't be arsed and I don't want to internet date. Look, if somebody just, turned up at my doorstep and they were like amazing, then maybe.

Jason Blitman: 45:51

Listen, maybe on the, in the back of your book, you know what, I'm going to print out stickers and I'll, anytime I see the book in a bookstore. I'm gonna put, stick it in the back of the book so that they'll fall in love with you.

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:02

is your sticker gonna say though?

Jason Blitman: 46:04

It'll just say

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:05

Oliver is available to date.

Jason Blitman: 46:07

email hello at gaysreading. com, and I'll vet everyone. And anyone

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:11

Okay. If you will do that, then I will consider the ones that you vetted. Let's put it that way. All right. This sounds amazing. This is like my, you are like my personal dating app and I don't even have to post pictures of myself or advertise myself.

Jason Blitman: 46:24

You did write a book

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:25

could I go on a dating app? How am I going to advertise myself? I'm a five foot three sort of man. Niche market, isn't

Jason Blitman: 46:32

people love grumpy old

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:34

I bloody hope so, because that's what I am now. So yeah. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 46:38

We got this. When you're

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:39

Thank you. I appreciate, I really appreciate.

Jason Blitman: 46:42

going to be in the audience of your production of My Fair Lady,

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:46

See me in my wingtip brogues.

Jason Blitman: 46:48

and they're going to be like, who is that? I love him. And then I'll be in the lobby selling your book and I'll say, read

Oliver Radclyffe: 46:54

Okay. So if I meet somebody at like a book signing, do I have to send them to you first?

Jason Blitman: 46:59

no, I'm just, if you you

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:00

I think I might. Can you meet my dating, can you meet my dating agent? I'll put it on my contacts page.

Jason Blitman: 47:06

I

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:06

Literary agent, speaking agent, dating agent. That's amazing.

Jason Blitman: 47:10

nothing would make me happier.

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:12

We're on. 25 percent of nothing.

Jason Blitman: 47:15

I'm so excited with all these teasers that we're giving people.

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:18

I know, right? You've

Jason Blitman: 47:19

out how Oliver was

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:20

page 116.

Jason Blitman: 47:21

have to read the book 116. Why Jason trolled Oliver. I'm so excited for you and Frightened the Horses, Oliver Radclyffe. Everyone go buy your copy and learn all the things that we wouldn't tell you about today. Are there things that we can look forward to from you from the future? Are you just, raising your kids and living your life? Are there other things

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:42

No, there's a, there's another book in the works. I'm busy writing the next book, which is a novel. I have nothing but three characters in the premise at the moment. I don't know where it's going, but it's going to be fun stuff.

Jason Blitman: 47:53

It's an adaptation of Pandora's

Oliver Radclyffe: 47:55

an ad, no, it's an adaptation of Pygmalion where Henry Higgins is trans.

Jason Blitman: 48:00

No, it's

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:01

it's not, but it could be, it might be now. I might have to write that.

Jason Blitman: 48:05

That would have been too

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:07

Wouldn't that have been fantastic?

Jason Blitman: 48:09

wait, but you should write that. What the

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:10

totally should. God, maybe I will.

Jason Blitman: 48:13

Can you see all these?

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:14

Oh, that's amazing. Oh, I love, oh, that makes my heart so happy.

Jason Blitman: 48:18

I know, that's why I showed you. People

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:19

Oh, God. That makes

Jason Blitman: 48:21

I just stuck them in random

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:23

Did you, I, but thank you for doing that. Because that was just a really kind, if that's what you did, that was a really kind thing to do.

Jason Blitman: 48:29

No, that's not what I did. No, look, things are even underlined. I know. Some of them have questions in the

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:37

wow. We need a whole other podcast to answer all your questions.

Jason Blitman: 48:41

I think we got there. We got there. I'm so excited to read your adaptation of Pygmalion that doesn't exist yet except for in our

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:48

Yes. And we'll then become a stage play and then a major movie deal. And then, we can retire on the proceeds.

Jason Blitman: 48:54

We're

Oliver Radclyffe: 48:55

Yeah, we're manifesting and my future

Jason Blitman: 48:57

Yes. I can't wait to meet her. We'll all have dinner one

Oliver Radclyffe: 49:00

Okay. Awesome. Sounds fantastic.

Jason Blitman: 49:03

Oliver, it's such a pleasure to meet you.

Oliver Radclyffe: 49:04

you Jason.

Jason Blitman: 49:05

Congratulations.

Oliver Radclyffe: 49:07

much.

Jason Blitman: 49:08

Thank you so much for being my guest, Gay Reader, on Gay's Reading. Welcome.

Roxane Gay: 49:12

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 49:13

Our listeners might know this guest from everything, from being an online crusader, a brilliant author, my favorite Goodreads reviewer. The one and only, the epitome of guest gay readers, Roxanne Gay. Before we get into books, there's something I have to talk to you about.

Roxane Gay: 49:32

Yes, go on.

Jason Blitman: 49:33

Because there's something that we have in common. We are both very upset about how difficult it is to peel garlic.

Roxane Gay: 49:39

so Impossible and so frustrating. And I've tried various gadgets. There's this one thing that's like a plastic sleeve with teeth on the inside and you put the Excuse me You put the garlic cloves inside it and you like rub it up and down and theoretically the skin is supposed to come off but It doesn't always work, and it doesn't always remove all of the skin. Peeling garlic is the bait of my existence, and I've taken to buying pre peeled garlic sometimes. However,

Jason Blitman: 50:10

huh. Huh.

Roxane Gay: 50:11

most of the time, it's already starting to soften, and it's not as good. So then you have to go back to the source.

Jason Blitman: 50:19

Yes,

Roxane Gay: 50:20

And also it's like the shittiest garlic cloves you've ever seen in your life. They're I, this was a problem I ran into yesterday and they're like little like runt garlic cloves. And I always think, how dare you sell this? How dare you?

Jason Blitman: 50:35

I know. And for some reason, they're all, I don't know if they're starting to turn or whatever they're sitting in. It's a little acidic, it's a little vinegary, like it doesn't even taste good, but I didn't have to open them, so is it better?

Roxane Gay: 50:50

And I refuse to use pre minced garlic in in the glass jar. That's just a crime, a war crime, if

Jason Blitman: 50:56

It is a war crime. There, in researching you, I was like, oh, Roxanne and I have a lot in common, but our hatred of peeling garlic is maybe the biggest piece in the middle of our Venn diagram.

Roxane Gay: 51:07

It is just a travesty. And I really, I love garlic, but I really wish garlic would get it together.

Jason Blitman: 51:13

Who can we write to? Someone like,

Roxane Gay: 51:16

Someone in Gilroy uh,

Jason Blitman: 51:17

Martha Stewart not figured it out?

Roxane Gay: 51:19

I know I want to go. So there's a lot. Most garlic is grown in Gilroy, California. They have a garlic festival and it's just a raison d'etre in Gilroy. And I wonder if they have any special tricks or tips because we're out here.

Jason Blitman: 51:35

I'm writing this down. I'm gonna look it up. A garlic festival? Could you imagine if part of what is at this garlic festival is like secret meetings about how to open garlic but no one else is allowed to know unless you go to the festival?

Roxane Gay: 51:48

that would be amazing. That would be amazing.

Jason Blitman: 51:50

we'll be there next year.

Roxane Gay: 51:51

How could we not?

Jason Blitman: 51:53

How could we not? Okay, so there, that's important.

Roxane Gay: 51:55

Yeah, very.

Jason Blitman: 51:56

to get that off my chest. Thing number two, and this came up for you in some conversation I think during COVID, so this might not be the case for you anymore, but you are a cable person.

Roxane Gay: 52:08

Yes, I am.

Jason Blitman: 52:09

So cable overwhelms me.

Roxane Gay: 52:12

Why? There's so many options.

Jason Blitman: 52:14

That's why.

Roxane Gay: 52:16

But streaming is overwhelming too because you have to decide. I make too many decisions in my day to day life. I'm too busy already. I don't have time to be like, what are we going to watch? I don't want to watch. When you go watch cable, you have a lot of options, but also you don't. What's there is what's being served to you. That's what you're watching from 9 to 9. 30. So get on board or turn the TV off.

Jason Blitman: 52:40

Then you have to wonder what's going to be on next if

Roxane Gay: 52:42

Yes. And I love that excitement, especially on a movie channel. Oh, what's next? What is next?

Jason Blitman: 52:50

you ever try to guess it based on the like first four seconds of the opening?

Roxane Gay: 52:55

It took me a second. I was like, the words had to get in there.

Jason Blitman: 52:57

right, you're like, oh, is this Warner Brothers? Do I recognize the music?

Roxane Gay: 53:01

Like I, because I like challenge myself and think of myself as a bit of an impresario when it comes to the first strains of a song

Jason Blitman: 53:08

It's name that

Roxane Gay: 53:09

strains of the first strains of a movie. And so I'm very into it.

Jason Blitman: 53:14

What's your genre of choice?

Roxane Gay: 53:15

I love dramas, romantic comedies. I'm not particularly into war movies because Quite frankly, there's enough war in the real world for us to focus on. And I don't do a ton of horror. Horror is just not my genre.

Jason Blitman: 53:30

Romantic comedy was not, I was not expecting that to be

Roxane Gay: 53:32

Oh god, I love rom coms. They're so

Jason Blitman: 53:35

What's a fave?

Roxane Gay: 53:36

Oh, what is a favorite? That's a good question.

Jason Blitman: 53:38

Let's see how our Venn diagram is doing.

Roxane Gay: 53:40

I love oh my god. Why am I blanking on the name? Cameron Diaz and that horrible little man. Not horrible. I don't know him personally, but. Ashton Kutcher leave it. The one where they get married in Vegas and Vegas isn't tight in the

Jason Blitman: 53:53

just married?

Roxane Gay: 53:54

What was that?

Jason Blitman: 53:55

Just married?

Roxane Gay: 53:56

No, different. Terrible.

Jason Blitman: 53:58

Ashton Kutcher and what's her face?

Roxane Gay: 54:00

I think Katie. No, not

Jason Blitman: 54:01

No, Murphy. Who died? Brittany Murphy.

Roxane Gay: 54:05

Such a great actress.

Jason Blitman: 54:06

Okay, wait, this is going to bother me.

Roxane Gay: 54:08

It's when in Vegas, maybe?

Jason Blitman: 54:10

Oh,

Roxane Gay: 54:11

What is it?

Jason Blitman: 54:12

look, how classic are you?

Roxane Gay: 54:14

I'm pretty classic. And it's so good. It's just so good. And I'm a fan. And it's just, let me, I have to Google this. It's

Jason Blitman: 54:22

I know,

Roxane Gay: 54:23

it's going to drive me crazy. And they end up together. What happens in

Jason Blitman: 54:27

what happens in Vegas? Oh my god, it has a 25 percent on Rotten Tomatoes. I'm obsessed.

Roxane Gay: 54:32

have no taste.

Jason Blitman: 54:32

I also love the movie Must Love Dogs, which I think also has like a 25 percent on Rotten Tomatoes.

Roxane Gay: 54:37

it's really shitty. However,

Jason Blitman: 54:39

How dare you?

Roxane Gay: 54:40

watch it. If If it's on, serve that up.

Jason Blitman: 54:44

Also because you don't have to change the channel.

Roxane Gay: 54:47

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 54:47

Cause it's coming on.

Roxane Gay: 54:49

And sometimes I just don't want to change the channel. Sometimes I just want to surrender to whatever is going on. This is what's on. This is what I have to watch. And it's fine.

Jason Blitman: 54:59

My favorite thing, I think, about that growing up is the, they would be back to back. The thing about cable and movies is if you catch something from the middle and it's on like a marathon, then you get to watch the first half.

Roxane Gay: 55:12

Then you go to the Western channel. If you're on the East coast and you watch the second half or you just watch it all over again,

Jason Blitman: 55:20

watch it all over

Roxane Gay: 55:20

love when it's like a three hour movie. And so I watch it on the East, like my cable here in LA has both the. HBO East and HBO West. So I will watch it on HBO East. And then I'm like, aha, look at that. And watch it again on HBO West just to let it really sink in.

Jason Blitman: 55:41

There are some movies that I have really only seen the second half of dozens, I've seen the second half of dozens of times in the first half of, just a few times. A League of Their Own is one of them. I think it was on TV all the time when I was growing up, but I only caught it. It was one of those things it was on, I would have to watch it. The reason why I'm even bringing this up is because I'm not a cable person and I was like, Am I missing anything? Does Roxanne have any recommendations? What should I watch? But

Roxane Gay: 56:03

you're missing everything. Get on board. Just get it together. It was so funny as my wife and I are bi coastal and our cable bills are just astonishing and it's cable slash internet and it was Inching up to here in LA, 400 a month, 405. And in New York, it was like 375. And so I called spectrum and I was like, this is absolutely unsustainable. And this is why people are cutting the cord. And they lowered my bill by 150. So it's back to. What I think is reasonable, but Debbie is the frugal one. I'm the spender. She's the saver. And so she cut our cable and then we got like YouTube TV and I hate it. I'm so upset. Every time I go to watch TV, I'm just like this budget ass cable. It's fake. there's no like live channels and there's no there's less commercials, which is great. And we share an account with my parents, which is also great. And they live in Florida, so we have to go to their house at least once every three or four months to reset.

Jason Blitman: 57:08

it. But that probably messes up the algorithm.

Roxane Gay: 57:11

no, I set them up on their own situation. So you could have four or five family members. They have their own thing. In fact, the other day they had to get their own Netflix account and they were very proud of themselves because Netflix caught on the fact that we were all sharing. I don't know why, but yes, we're all on the same, everything except for cell phones. And netflix made them get their own account and they were very pleased that they managed to do it all by themselves without asking for

Jason Blitman: 57:39

them.

Roxane Gay: 57:39

know I was like really impressed I was like yes guys get it look at you up with your own little Netflix account. What's next Hulu?

Jason Blitman: 57:45

god, it's so funny. I could talk to you about Garlick in TV all day, This is Gay's Reading and I have to know, what is Roxanne Gay, gay reading? Yeah,

Roxane Gay: 57:56

so I get a lot of galleys so I tend to read well in advance so I just finished Katie Kidamarra's audition, which is out in April and Yes, it's, I don't understand it. I don't know what happened, but it was wonderful. She's a

Jason Blitman: 58:14

Did not. That was a twist.

Roxane Gay: 58:16

It was, she's brilliant. And it was just sublime prose from the first to the last word. I was. All in. Absolutely all in. And I still am like, huh. I really, I know you're not supposed to do this and I actually don't know the author, but I really just want to send her an email and just be like, secretly, between you and me, I won't tell anyone, just for funsies, what the hell happened here. Just tell me what your intentions were, what was going on, because it's meant to be confusing, and it will make sense once you read it. But I'm dying to have a coffee with her

Jason Blitman: 58:46

I think if Roxane Gay reached out to an author, they would want to have that coffee.

Roxane Gay: 58:52

I know, but she's like famous, so I'm afraid to email her. And also, I'm like, I don't want to seem that dumb. Because I want to I'm smart! I have a PhD! I know how to read! But, oh my god, what happened?

Jason Blitman: 59:05

Every once in a while when I'm in conversation with an author, I'm like, I need to make sure I understood this otherwise, because I'm a good reader. I have a degree in theater, I took a lot of script analysis classes, but I hope what I'm saying is right.

Roxane Gay: 59:19

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 59:20

I feel that.

Roxane Gay: 59:21

And so I, for now I'm just letting it percolate. It was worth it. Very good book. Highly recommend when it comes out next year.

Jason Blitman: 59:28

Love. So on this episode of Gays Reading, we're featuring Oliver Radclyffe. Tell me, how did this come to be?

Roxane Gay: 59:38

so I have my own imprint called Roxane Gay Books, very cleverly named, very original. And I had a micropress many years ago when I was a broke graduate student and junior professor, making, oh god, it's embarrassing how little I made, but it's okay.

Jason Blitman: 59:55

I feel you. Nonprofit theater.

Roxane Gay: 59:57

Yeah. Oh you know that life Because I don't have children and I just thought, what can I do with the spare money I don't have? And, but published little tiny books was the answer, of course. And so I started publishing these really lovely books, and I, they were half they were about 4.25 by 5.5. So you could put it in your purse, your pocket and go about your business. And it was challenging in that. You have to commission the cover design. I did all of the interior design work myself and I did all the promotion myself, which is to say not much promotion because I had no network of any kind and it was fine. It was cute, but I always wondered what could I do with actual resources? And several years ago, I started wondering, could I have an imprint? And I asked my agent about it about five years ago. And she was like, yeah, of course. I got interest from both of my publishers. My fiction is published at Grove Atlantic, my nonfiction at HarperCollins. And Both of them were interested, but I decided to go with Grove, even though I have a great relationship with both presses, but Grove is smaller. It's a mid sized publisher, and I knew that the books were really going to get a lot of personal attention. I wouldn't be able to pay writers as much, but they would get an advance, they would get publicity support, and we would see what could happen. And so far, I have published four books, and thank you. It's exciting. I love it. It's humbling, because Selling books is really hard, especially for debut authors. And so Oliver sent in a memoir, Frighten the Horses, and it's about his transition journey. And he was born a poor black child. And that's a joke for people who are my age.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:46

Of course, and anyone who has just listened to the first half of this episode knows that he, in fact, was not.

Roxane Gay: 1:01:52

no, he was born as an upper class, wealthy, very attractive British woman and toward the middle of his life started realizing something is off here. And he thought at first he might be a lesbian. And so he came out and then he realized this isn't quite right and came out again, not only to himself, but to his husband from whom he is now divorced. And of course his four children. And so it's a really interesting memoir because he grew up very sheltered and even was sheltered as an adult. And so you'll notice in the memoir that he really didn't know what he didn't know about being trans, about transitioning, about being queer in this world. And, he did it from a very privileged position, which is also interesting and different. And he acknowledges that privilege, which is incredibly important because for so many trans people, not only do they not have the social currency to transition, it's incredibly difficult to get, the money to get the transition medical care that they need. So it's an interesting story and it really is also very witty. He has a British sense of humor because he is in fact British. And I really just enjoyed the writing, not only conceptually as a whole, but on a sentence level.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:12

yeah. And this is your first memoir for The Imprint? Nonfiction? First memoir? Yeah,

Roxane Gay: 1:03:20

It is, yes. First, I love fiction. Fiction, I don't read a lot of non fiction. My first love is very much fiction and so the

Jason Blitman: 1:03:28

I think that's why this sort of surprised

Roxane Gay: 1:03:30

yeah, the first three books were a novel, three novels actually. And I, I do have two essay collections forthcoming and of course a short story collection and a couple novels. So I am interested in all kinds of books, but Oliver's was just a beautiful memoir and I really hope that it finds its audience. I think it already has started to find an audience, which is wonderful. And I'm very grateful for that. But I hope as many people as possible read this book.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:58

When I'm on Goodreads, and I see that you have, you written a review for a book, it means something.

Roxane Gay: 1:04:04

It does. I read it. No, but I hear you. I

Jason Blitman: 1:04:07

there's a, there's an element of like trusting opinions or understanding taste, whether you like a book or not. It's like, oh, I know that we both loved Martyr. So if Roxanne also loved this book, then I'd probably should pick it up

Roxane Gay: 1:04:20

Yes, and I am really, I'm really happy that people trust my opinion, and I always hope that they create space for their own opinions as well, especially if I don't like a book, because sometimes I don't, and I'm honest. Because if you're not honest, if you love everything, then you don't have taste. You don't have discernment. Not everything is good. And also it's very subjective. A book I love, another reader might think is middling or not good.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:53

and it being good are very different things.

Roxane Gay: 1:04:55

That too. I love a lot of

Jason Blitman: 1:04:57

terrible movie. I love it.

Roxane Gay: 1:05:01

I know. It's okay to love bad things. Not criminal bad, but quality bad.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:07

And what's so great about your reviews for folks who have not seen them is they are succinct.

Roxane Gay: 1:05:12

Yes. In and out.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:13

So thank you for that. I say on behalf of every Goodreads reader. Okay, so you just read Audition. Anything else on your radar that we should That me, that our listeners

Roxane Gay: 1:05:23

I have a lot of really great forthcoming books but I really recommend Edwidge Danticat which came out. two weeks ago. It's an essay collection and it's a really slender volume if you're looking for a quick, it's not a quick read, but it is a slender volume with a really powerful punch. And the book I'm actually reading right now is Guide Me Home by Attica Locke. And Attica Locke writes southern gothic crime fiction and it's just extraordinarily good. I'm in it deep right now with this guy who recently resigned from the Texas Rangers and has a bit of a drinking problem but is also trying to find a missing black woman. And right now where the mystery is very confounding. Where is she? Why is nobody looking for her? What happened? Cause she was the only black woman in an all white sorority. I think those girls had something to do with it. You put that out there and I will let, I have to report back.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:20

heard it here first. Oh, so funny. That sounds so good.

Roxane Gay: 1:06:23

It's just so good. And Attica writes very atmospherically, and so it's very immersive. The prose is very sharp, and she's just a wonderful writer. And she also writes for film and television, and she's great.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:38

Amazing. This episode is coming out in November. Can you share what your book club is going to be for our listeners?

Roxane Gay: 1:06:46

Oh, yeah, it's not a secret. The Women's Hotel by Danny Lavery.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:51

what? I'm so excited.

Roxane Gay: 1:06:53

Danny's a cutie pie. So I actually like his writing very much. Some of it is a bit 18th century for me on his newsletter, which is very fun. And so I'm like I'm not well versed in 18th century literature or 19th century literature to really get these jokes, but I can tell that they're funny, but his contemporary work is really wonderful and the women's hotel there actually reminds me of Rona Jaffe and her novel, what was it? The best of us? No, I'm blanking on the title, but it's very, it has a Rona Jaffe, but dingier type vibe in that the hotel that these women are all living at has seen better days.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:32

for sure. And I think I have three copies of Women's Hotel sitting at my desk right now. So I am going to host a giveaway

Roxane Gay: 1:07:41

Nice.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:42

that anyone who's listening, you can join the Roxane Gay Book Club. So I'll post about it on Instagram. So go follow at GaysReading on Instagram, everyone, and win your copy of Women's Hotel.

Roxane Gay: 1:07:54

I'm so excited.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:55

Okay. I've also been asking everyone what a like hot take is a quick read, what they're complaining about. Everyone has been talking about the freaking election. So

Roxane Gay: 1:08:02

wonder why,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:03

I've been less, I've been asking that question a little bit less, but if there's anything other than garlic that you are reading right now, feel free, this is your time to air your grievance.

Roxane Gay: 1:08:14

Oh, okay. It's like Festivus in November.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:19

Yes, exactly.

Roxane Gay: 1:08:20

Oh, okay. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:22

Oh my God. That face that you just made, you are ready.

Roxane Gay: 1:08:25

I was thinking of politics, but it's not directly related. It's tangential, but Olivia Knudse, the journalist who slept with, who not slept with, who had an affair, supposedly not physical, with RFK Jr.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:38

It was just virtual. Is that

Roxane Gay: 1:08:40

it was virtual. She sent him nudes and whatever. And so now she is suspended, but not fired from New York Magazine, which is interesting, a choice. And so there are a lot of questions. arising around journalistic ethics, because apparently for journalists, you're not supposed to sleep with your subjects or sources. Huh.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:59

Huh?

Roxane Gay: 1:09:00

And Yes, and what's interesting is that journalists love to talk about integrity and so many of them are like, I don't vote because I want to be impartial, which is completely insane. By the way, this whole journalists don't vote as if laws don't affect them. Literally, you're predicated on the second and the first amendment freedom of speech. How could you not vote to make sure that stays together? But okay, so side read there. But the main read is, it's amazing to see all these journalists who cloak themselves in the idea of honesty and integrity, caping for this woman who had such journalistic malpractice and continued to cover the presidential campaign. Wild times. Now, I'm not here to judge her personal choices

Jason Blitman: 1:09:44

send those nudes.

Roxane Gay: 1:09:45

Go for it. If you have a nude worthy body, and everyone does,

Jason Blitman: 1:09:50

has a nude

Roxane Gay: 1:09:50

everyone does by all means, and if you want to send that to a married man, okay feel free, your choice. But like, when you then also don't disclose it, and you continue to report on the person, how are we supposed to trust your judgment? So it's just interesting to see white journalists jumping up and down to defend her, which leads me to believe, who, or to not even believe, leads me to wonder, who are they having affairs with? Delicious. Yes. That's occupied not much of my mind. I would say I've given it about 1. 3 percent of my mental energy.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:28

It took you a minute to think about

Roxane Gay: 1:10:29

Yeah, it did. It did.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:31

That's a good read.

Roxane Gay: 1:10:32

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:33

On Goodreads.

Roxane Gay: 1:10:34

Yes. Goodreads. com. Find more there.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:38

Roxane Gay, such a delight. I told people that I was having guest gay readers on every episode. Every single person was like, you have to get Roxane Gay. I was like, duh, reaching, reached out already.

Roxane Gay: 1:10:51

I'm glad that I could make this work because this was very fun. I love talking about books.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:56

Me too. So whenever you want to chat back, cause I'm always here for you. And I'm like, gay is reading. It's like,

Roxane Gay: 1:11:02

It's right right there.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:03

I know, I'm a little sad your imprint is not gay books.

Roxane Gay: 1:11:07

Just cover my name there you go. It's

Jason Blitman: 1:11:09

on every version. I'll just scratch it

Roxane Gay: 1:11:11

little piece of tape on it. Gay books.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:14

books! Missed opportunity. I'm gonna

Roxane Gay: 1:11:17

now that I think about it. The reason I didn't do gay books, and I did consider it, is because many years ago, I had, not many, but like six or seven years ago, I had a little magazine that I hosted on Medium called Gay Magazine.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:28

Yes.

Roxane Gay: 1:11:29

And so many people thought it was gay as in homosexual.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:33

Yeah.

Roxane Gay: 1:11:34

And I get why they would make that connection, for sure.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:37

Yeah.

Roxane Gay: 1:11:38

Makes sense. However was just, it was more, the lens of the magazine was broader than that. And so people really misunderstood. And I think it affected overall readership because of that, which is actually a sad reflection of where people are at. Like, why would that be a deterrent? Why would that not be something you would want to read?

Jason Blitman: 1:11:58

I feel that way with gays reading. I think a lot of people think it is either only gay books or only gay authors or only queer content. And that isn't really true. I'm trying to feature more queer people just because queer people don't get enough airtime. But Anyone can listen. Any, all sorts of authors are on the show. And I'm the gay reader and I have guest gay readers. So we're doing the gayness for everybody.

Roxane Gay: 1:12:24

And I think that's great. And also what does it say about you that you don't want to engage with learning if it were strictly about gay books, go ahead and listen anyway. Take a gander because you would hopefully want to learn about all kinds of books

Jason Blitman: 1:12:38

Straight people, you're infiltrating the gay bars. You can also come into the gay books.

Roxane Gay: 1:12:42

listen. I recently went back to my hometown, Omaha, Nebraska to do some. Campaign work, and it was fine, but I asked about one of the big gay bars in downtown Omaha. I had dinner with a group of Nebraska gays, and it was so funny because everyone's face changed the minute I asked about this one bar. And I was like, Oh, what happened? And they were like, the straights have taken over. And I was just like, Oh my God, a tale as old as time.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:10

Seriously. You went to Lincoln

Roxane Gay: 1:13:13

I went to Omaha, but no, this trip I didn't go to Lincoln, but I used to live in Lincoln.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:17

You I once upon a time was working for a university and I represented them at the Thespian Festival at the university in Lincoln.

Roxane Gay: 1:13:26

that's where I got my master's.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:27

there was a steakhouse across the street called, I think, Misty's or

Roxane Gay: 1:13:32

Yes, Misty's is the nicest restaurant in town, or it was like 20 years ago.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:37

all I remember is they had really good bisque and it was super good.

Roxane Gay: 1:13:40

Misty's is a really great restaurant and it's been around for a really long time. And I, it was always like when I was going to grad school when I lived there and I was It's also young and very broke. And so it was like the super fancy restaurant. It was just very aspirational for me.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:56

Oh my god. Obsessed. Roxane Gay, I could, again, talk to you all day. Thank you so much for being here. Anyone, if you have a trick for peeling garlic, email hello at gaysreading. com We want, seriously, I'm going to put together a little doc, I'm going to share it wide. We need everyone's tips and tricks because, Roxanne and I are losing sleep over it, and please, we need you.

Roxane Gay: 1:14:20

If there's a chef listening, hook us up.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:22

Yes. Oh, my former roommate is a chef. I'm gonna text him.

Roxane Gay: 1:14:25

Oh, see? You just, right there. Problem solving.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:29

there. I'm talking to a chef in a couple weeks. We're gonna get, we're gonna get a good collection of answers. We're gonna try them.

Roxane Gay: 1:14:34

Good.

1:14:35

Thank you. Oliver Radclyffe. Thank you. Roxanne gay, everyone. Make sure to check out Oliver's book frighten, the horses, wherever you get your books. It is out now. Uh, don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram at Gays reading, we are giving away books. Every week, all the time. So make sure to check that out. And I will see you next week. Thanks. Bye.