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Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Mm hmm. Hello, and welcome to gaze reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And welcome back to those of you. Who've been here before and and I'm very happy to have you. If you are new to gaze reading today, we have an insanely. At BEC episode. It is our biggest, it is our longest, it is the most insane episode I've ever done of gaze reading yet. And that is because it is wicked, week'. Who can't believe it. I know so many people hold both wicked and the story of those advisors very near and dear to their heart. And so I am thrilled that on today's episode, I have the fantastic Gregory Maguire, the author of the original novel wicked. I have Eric Williams host of that's a gay ass podcast. he and I talk about some of our favorite moments from the musical. And. and my very first guest gay icon, the one and only Eden Espinosa. the original standby for Elphaba on Broadway. All of their bios are in the show notes. you can watch this episode and a bunch of our other episodes over on YouTube. You can subscribe to that channel. The link to that is in our link tree and also in the show notes. Also, if you could like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, it makes it so much easier. For other folks to find gaze reading. And if you are so inclined, leave us a five star review. And I highly recommend following us on social media. We're on Instagram at gays reading. Not only do we do giveaways all the time, but for this episode this week, We are. Giving away three copies of the special edition hardcover version of wicked and giving away a copy. Of E V yet to be released. Elfie the pre-qual to. Wicked. So make sure to check that out on our Instagram page at Gail's reading. And if you're new to us, you haven't heard this yet. I'm so thrilled to share that we're partnering with aardvark book club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the USA can join today. Enter the code gaze reading at checkout and get their first book for only$4 and free shipping that's aardvark book club.com. Aardvark has two A's uh, and use the code gaze reading to get your very first box for$4. Make sure to check that out. And without further ado, welcome to gaze reading Gregory Maguire.

Jason Blitman: 3:04

Welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm so happy to have you here.

Gregory Maguire: 3:08

Oh, it's a real, it's a real treat to be here. I'm glad this could work out. I wasn't sure for a while if my schedule was so tight. I wasn't sure we'd be able to find a place, but here we are.

Jason Blitman: 3:18

thank you for squeezing me in. I feel very, uh, nice and compact and into your schedule. Um, I feel like there is, we could probably sit and talk forever and forever, so many pieces of your life besides yourself, obviously are queer coded or like. queer adjacent.

Gregory Maguire: 3:42

Yeah. I love that phrase In fact, I used it today in an email to my husband who said, Oh, that's a really cool phrase. I wasn't sure I had made it up, but clearly I didn't.

Jason Blitman: 3:56

Not to be confused with queer Jason.

Gregory Maguire: 4:01

Oh, shoot.

Jason Blitman: 4:02

That I made up. That's mine. Starting with knowing you as a young person loved Harriet the spy, which I just had a terrific conversation with an author a couple of weeks ago Ruman Alam, who it's a very big important book for him too, and he talked about how queer the book is, and I've never actually read the book, and it's on my list to buy.

Gregory Maguire: 4:25

Well, we'll have to hang. We'll have to hang up now because I can't, I can't talk to you if you, if you don't know, Harry, the spy is, is amused and will be amused for you like Emily Dickinson and Virginia Woolf and Anybody

Jason Blitman: 4:37

I did see the movie as a young person, so I'm very familiar with the contextual importance, but I went to the bookstore the other day to buy it, and they did not have it. And this is before I even knew that you were such a fan.

Gregory Maguire: 4:50

that's a crime. I will give me your address before the end of this show and I will mail you. I promise.

Jason Blitman: 4:56

Um, So, the fact that that in and of itself, very queer coded, so many, uh, picture books and children's books are written by authors who later in life came out or who were known to be gay or queer, and I know that those were a lot of your influences as well. Did you, do you feel like you sort of lived in this tangentially queer space always?

Gregory Maguire: 5:24

I think I did. Now I have to say, cause I've done an informal study of this. If you ask the people who are about my generation and I'm not shy about, you know, in an Asian sort of way, I'm proud of my age. I turned 70 this year. Uh, thank you. Uh, a lot of people who, you know, were born in the mid fifties and came upon Harriet the Spive when they were about 10 and it came out 64, a lot of people Whether they were queer or not, a lot of authors took it as a working Bible. This is a manual about how to be a writer, how to be a creative person. And the queer coding in it only was, came clear to me as I got to be an adult. One of the many people I've met who cites it as a seminal influence, if I can use that word for a lesbian is, um, Alison Bechdel. She loves Harriet the Spy, and she's not the only one. I'd say there are maybe 10 people I know from my cohort, age cohort of creators, who said, Harriet set me on the path. I was very lucky compared to many people in that I can't, even though I had some sadness and sorrow in my, in my childhood and in my upbringing, the fact is my parents. appreciated writing and appreciated the creative act. And so they did not, they were not, villains that had to be vanquished in order for me to meet my dream. Uh, they weren't particularly interested in story writing, but they were interested in writing and in language. And so I had a leg up on a lot of people that way. And if I was a little, uh, sensitive, uh, as I, you know, began to call it when I was in 10th grade, uh, uh, I, I, I did not ever feel brutalized. in my family about that because my family appreciated that I was, I was demonstrating industry and I was demonstrating, harnessing my imagination and good for me, even if sometimes I was an embarrassment when guests came over. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:39

many young children are embarrassments when the guests come over, so it's not just you. You said that, and all of a sudden, trauma jumped into my mind.

Gregory Maguire: 7:51

So what happened to you, Jason, that turned you toward the microphone and making me a spectacle of yourself once

Jason Blitman: 7:58

I, it's so funny, I don't know that I've ever even told this story to my husband, there was a family gathering and I was in my parents room putting on a one man version of Grease using the 1994 Broadway cast recording and I was like in the middle of dancing on the bed and some family member walked in the room and it was like among my most embarrassing moments as a child because I was the spectacle at the family gathering. Anyway, that just, thank you for that.

Gregory Maguire: 8:26

You're welcome. You're welcome. There's a therapy dispenser down at the corner, and as soon as we're done with our work here today, you should go and take care of yourself.

Jason Blitman: 8:34

I actually have therapy tomorrow morning so we're, I'm gonna make a note to remind myself to talk to him about that. So Gregory Maguire messed me up.

Gregory Maguire: 8:44

going to tell you something interesting, because I know

Jason Blitman: 8:47

hope so.

Gregory Maguire: 8:48

to talk about Wicked, we're going to talk about writing, we're going to talk about being queer, and all that stuff is really interesting to me. Especially the queer coding in my work, which I think was even deeper, more deeply embedded in it. Then he possibly even, I was aware when I was doing it. However, I've been having a really interesting conversation the last day or two, and you said the conversation, you said our conversation could ramble in any direction. A friend of mine has put out a podcast. And his name is Matt Starr and the podcast is something like the best man's ghost writer or something like that. And it's about an independent writer who's about to get married himself to a woman whose job it is to do support for straight men who have to give toasts at the weddings of their best friends. And I've, I listened to it. I listened to about three quarters of it on a long car ride, uh, Monday. And I got thinking, about my best male friends. And I'll tell you, and this is the reason it's compelling to talk about to me is that I realized I'm 70. I realized something new. I've got many straight friends that I really, really like. And I like spending time with, but if I'm being honest, any straight male friends I have might not be listening to the Gays Reading Podcast. So I'm safe to say this. Uh, if I'm being honest, most of my straight male friends. I prefer to see with their wives. I would not, unless somebody had had a trauma or something like somebody was sick or somebody needed help. I would, for most state men, I would not go out of my way to like have lunch with them or to see I was passing through town. I have a lot of single gay male friends. I have a lot of married gay male friends. These are not people I dislike at all. But. I didn't realize until listening to this podcast that he was not just talking about straight men, he was talking about gay men and their attachment, or lack thereof, to straight men as good friends. I do have, I do have some. But I would call, um, you know, between you and me, I would call the straight male friends that I have kind of gay adjacent, I mean, I might not say it to them to their face. I, they're gay adjacent to me. So, and, and, uh, and I find it, I mean, I, A, it's a really interesting concept, like just how effed up are straight men. Uh, and, and, and, and in what way am I? F'd up because I find straight men kind of alarming or, um, or boring. I, you know,

Jason Blitman: 11:47

can be. No offense to any straight men who listen.

Gregory Maguire: 11:51

yeah, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:51

The three

Gregory Maguire: 11:52

I have, I have to say that, I, I exclude my three living brothers from this because I would see any of my living brothers one on one for dinner or lunch any day of the year. And the same goes through for my nephews. Um, but that, but they have a different,

Jason Blitman: 12:08

It's a different relationship to you.

Gregory Maguire: 12:11

me, it's lifelong. It doesn't need to be proven and I don't need to prove myself. I'm like already, already punched into their world, whether they like it or not. I don't have to prove

Jason Blitman: 12:21

It's very funny that you bring this up because just last week we went on a double date with a straight couple and and their kid and and we were playing trivia and in the middle of trivia, we knew that one of them was gonna have to leave with the kid to take the kid home. And it was the wife that left and the husband stayed. And that was a very interesting experience for us because we don't know him that well. And and it was the straight guy that stayed and that was so It was a moment that I thought about, right? It didn't just go on unnoticed.

Gregory Maguire: 12:54

Yeah. Yeah. But at least there were two of you. Now, if my husband and I are together, it, the, the, the intensity, dissipates a great deal because they hide each other. And my husband was married to a woman for, you know, a long time. So it's not as if he doesn't have street cred, you know.

Jason Blitman: 13:10

So he's straight adjacent.

Gregory Maguire: 13:12

he is straight adjacent. Yeah, you better not talk about him.

Jason Blitman: 13:17

But

Gregory Maguire: 13:17

But anyway, but I was thinking about that. When you use the word gay adjacent, Earlier on, uh, rather than gay Jason, uh, I was, I actually, that's the phrase I was, cause he's in France. I'm going to go see him. Um, we're going to meet in Paris on Friday. And I was writing to him about this, this aperçu that I had and, and he wrote back and said, well, the same is not true for me. Most of my male friends, A, are, are married and B, are, are straight. You know what I mean? I like the gay friends that we have together. But with, with only a couple exceptions, I, I have lunch with straight men all the time. And I think, well, you're, you're a separate category.

Jason Blitman: 14:01

That's amazing. I will say there's one particular straight friend who has like hit me on the butt more times than any gay friend I've ever had.

Gregory Maguire: 14:10

I call that gay adjacent, sorry. He doesn't have to

Jason Blitman: 14:15

He honestly would probably be honored if I said

Gregory Maguire: 14:17

I know, I know. And you're constantly turning to pick something up off the floor, you know.

Jason Blitman: 14:22

Oh, sorry. Whoops.

Gregory Maguire: 14:24

Yeah, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 14:25

You talked a little bit earlier about, you didn't quite, I don't think you use the term traumas in your childhood, but you've certainly described your childhood as, uh, maybe plot points that have mirrored fairy tales.

Gregory Maguire: 14:38

Right, right.

Jason Blitman: 14:39

And you've also expressed that fairy tales are so easily adaptable because of how porous they are. So between your own, uh, for better or for worse, life experience of living through a, uh, modern fairy tale and them being so adaptable. Is that sort of, was that maybe what sparked all of what became Gregory Maguire?

Gregory Maguire: 15:04

I think so, of course, I was, I was, I was very clueless. Now, I don't know how old you are, Jason, you don't have to tell me, but The fact of the matter is it's very hard for the younger generation of gay men and gay women, to realize before Stonewall, especially if you weren't in a hot urban area like New York or D. C. or San Francisco or someplace, uh, how very, how very, not just closeted one was, But how out of the universe one was, there just, there wasn't the language, and there wasn't the popular concept that the idea of an identity of being gay actually was a thing. I mean, when I first started having crushes on boys, if you, if, when I first began to say, gee, I, I like, I like him awful lot. Why, you know, more than I liked the other, the girls in the class. Why is that? You know, I knew the words. I knew the word fairy. This is. I'm thinking of this because of your use of the word fairytale. I knew the word fairy and I knew it was a term that 6th grade and 8th grade boys slung at boys who weren't on the football team or boys who liked to sit in at recess and draw instead of you know, go out and kick each other's nuts in their throats. Um, and and so I knew that it, I knew that it had meaning. But I didn't know it had a gendered meaning, and I didn't know it had an erotic meaning. I just thought it was, it was behavioral. Some, some people like to make their bed before they go to school, and most people don't. But, you know, so I'm, I'm a bed maker, you know. So, you know, it didn't,

Jason Blitman: 16:50

Could you imagine if that's what we were called?

Gregory Maguire: 16:53

yeah, really.

Jason Blitman: 16:54

are? Are you a bed? Are you a bed maker?

Gregory Maguire: 16:58

You bet, honey, are you? Hospital corners like you wouldn't believe.

Jason Blitman: 17:07

right? To what degree of a bed maker are you?

Gregory Maguire: 17:09

Yeah. Yeah, really.

Jason Blitman: 17:10

so funny.

Gregory Maguire: 17:11

I get a new sham every three months. Now, but you know, it really is. I keep saying this, but it really is. I grew up in a very, uh, intellectual, but very pious, old fashioned Roman Catholic environment where the sense of social justice was real. We just never talked about what we were being socially just about. So people my age, if they were as clueless as I was. I had to kind of really work from first principles. Well, what do I feel when this boy walks In the, in the 12th grade, journalism room, and we're, and we're going to have to lean together over the pages and, and decide if the margins are right. Why is it that I feel like I want to inch closer to them? Why do I want our elbows to touch? What does that mean? And I, I, you know, now I think it's almost impossible for anybody not to know what that means. But when I was 17, I was really kind of, I was curious. I was gay curious, but I didn't have the words for being gay curious, and now everybody does. So, back to your question about what is it that fairy tales did for me as a writer, besides being called fairy tales, which was embarrassing in and of itself.

Jason Blitman: 18:28

it's probably going to be the name of your memoir, which I'm looking forward

Gregory Maguire: 18:31

Yes, right. what they did was they constantly, over and over and over again, in a set of, You know, 42 grim tales, almost everyone would begin with the youngest child or the only child or the orphan child abused in some way, having to find his or her way out in the harsh world and figure out, usually through charity, although sometimes through wits, how to survive the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. And I think that I saw myself. As the orphaned child who was possibly, you know, not clever Hans, but, you know, the dumb clock, you know, sometimes the third one is it's the one who's a little bit adulterated and the other, the other two older boys go off to make their living and get fortunes. And the young one has, I don't know, a toaster. For a pet and drags it along by the electrical cord, you know, just not all, not, not all there up there. And I think I saw myself as that, and yet the boy with the toaster for a pet can, can live too. Not only he can live, he can sometimes, in fact, usually he can win the princess, which back before I was gendered was like, well, that's cool. You know, there wasn't any prince to win, but

Jason Blitman: 19:57

mean, even that could also be a stand in for be the be the star of the story.

Gregory Maguire: 20:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, but you know, I might as, um, as you're kind of alluding to, my mother died when I was born. That doesn't happen anymore. My mother died in childbirth. She lived a few days and then she needed transfusions and they didn't take and, and she died of a, uh, some sort of a blood, um, anomaly or infection or something. And so I went to first to an aunt and then shortly thereafter to an orphanage. And I spent my first couple of years. being tended to by Catholic nuns and nurses until my father remarried and collected the family back together. So even though I don't have any memories of that, it's certainly part of the, what is past is prologue, part of how I think about myself. And I think why I identified with orphans and with the magic world that somehow allowed me to survive. And, and the, the, the stepmother who raised me, who was anything but a wicked stepmother, in fact, in many ways, I used to joke with her when, when I was about 12, I said, you know, you're both a wicked stepmother and a fairy godmother. Isn't that interesting? And she laughed because she liked literary references and she got what I was saying.

Jason Blitman: 21:20

love that. I mean, you know, you say you don't remember a lot of it, but I, but one could imagine, and again, I'm not a therapist, maybe I could ask mine tomorrow on your behalf, perhaps that's coming out in your books, right? Like some, these, these deep, deep seated, maybe not repressed, but these things that live inside of you are coming out through the things that you're writing.

Gregory Maguire: 21:41

Well, one of the things I noticed, actually, I have to confess, I'm a little bit, I'm a bear of very little brain, even if I'm loquacious, uh, as they call it,

Jason Blitman: 21:50

You are the third one.

Gregory Maguire: 21:52

Somebody else who pointed out to me that in my first 20 books, let's say some for children, some for adults, there is never a story that starts with two intact parents and a happy child. One parent is usually missing or dead. And more often than not, it's the mother. And it's almost as if in the story taking, machinery of my mind, I can't even think, see anything worth talking about. If there isn't a child who has to survive the death of a parent, it's, it's like, that's the prerequisite of a story. You need once upon a time, you need a dead mother. Let's go boom. We're off to the races.

Jason Blitman: 22:28

That's it. That's all. That's the recipe.

Gregory Maguire: 22:32

That's the rest of it. Now, of course, Harry, the spy had two parents, uh, which you will find out when you get the package I'm about to mail to you, uh, but they were New Yorkers and they were somewhat narcissistic. So in a way she was orphaned too. And she was raised by her, by her governess, really.

Jason Blitman: 22:51

hmm. Well, it's funny thinking about this and unpacking this. I have said many, many times my all I want is to get Rosie O'Donnell on this podcast. And Rosie of course played that nanny in the

Gregory Maguire: 23:03

Yes, right,

Jason Blitman: 23:04

And I do think there is an element of me being raised by her coming home from school and watching the Rosie O'Donnell show every day. And that being an introduction growing up in Florida to New York and to theater and to Broadway and to, you know, what became my career for over a decade. Um,

Gregory Maguire: 23:23

gosh, I love

Jason Blitman: 23:24

in a way there is an element of Harriet and me too.

Gregory Maguire: 23:28

Well, if you ever get her, tell her I said hi. because we went to see Wicked together. I met her at a party in Boston, when Wicked had been running for about five years. And she said, oh, you wrote Wicked. I love that show. I'd like to see it again. And I said, well, guess what? I can get tickets. And so, uh, she gave me her email address, or her, you know,

Jason Blitman: 23:49

Her assistant or whoever.

Gregory Maguire: 23:51

And, uh, I wrote and, you know, two and a half weeks later, I was down in New York and I met her, we went to a green room where the VIPs go because they don't want to go into the auditorium until right before curtain so that they don't get mobbed too much. And. I got to see what it was like to be gay adjacent to Rosie Madonna because we, we appeared at the, at the edge of the central, um, uh, sort of corridor that separates the lower seats from the upper seats at the Gershwin Theatre in New York and just paused there. I'd say we were only 90 seconds from curtains. And I could see heads swivel, 1700 people. And I could hear the murmur of recognition and identification ripple out from her. And everybody was so attentive to her. And I was like this velvet ambulatory theater bolster, like rolling along beside her,

Jason Blitman: 24:50

Mm hmm.

Gregory Maguire: 24:50

Oompa Loompa or something. We sat down, she sang through almost the whole show. And I've, you know, I thought, well, frankly, I don't think that's kosher, but she was Rosie O'Donnell and she was my guest. So I couldn't really say, shut up. Are you ruining it for everybody? And nobody told her to shut up either. So along comes the, uh, the final number at the bottom of that one defying gravity and the witch goes up and she's getting ready for her yodel. And, uh, Rosie's getting ready for her yodel, too. And I grab Rosie by the forearm, and I say, This is the longest first act in the history of theater. And everybody rushes for the bathroom. As soon as the, as the lights go black, I, we are running out of time. anybody else. So that's what happened. Ah, black run. We dash up the aisle, we get out the door, we fall down the escalator, and we find ourselves in a bar across the street, where we skip Act two because we've both seen it many times. And we talk politics and child rearing for the rest of the evening. So I don't know whether she'll remember that.

Jason Blitman: 26:08

So once this episode airs, I'll send it to her, and I'll say, Gregory says hello, and you should also be on the podcast. Oh, that's such, such a

Gregory Maguire: 26:16

Of course, she has a beautiful voice. If you're going to send this to her, I have to say. She has a beautiful voice, and she only harmonized perfectly with Kristen and Idina. Actually, who were probably not in the roles at that point, but at any

Jason Blitman: 26:27

That's so funny. Um, see, I told you we would talk about things you don't typically talk about on this

Gregory Maguire: 26:32

That's true. I don't think I've told that story to too many

Jason Blitman: 26:35

Um, okay. So you're a big reader. Fairy tales have been deep in your life. And we, you, while someone might not have whispered, are you a bedmaker? People might have whispered, are you a friend of Dorothy's?

Gregory Maguire: 26:51

Yes. And you know, they did. And when they did, I did not know what that meant. I really, sometimes I see bumper stickers, friends of Dorothy, a friend of Dorothy. And I really, I was, I was clueless. I mean, I have, I have many years of higher education and I was nonetheless clueless. And I thought, Oh, somebody else who likes the Wizard of Oz. Somebody I knew. Oh, nice. Yeah. And, uh, and frankly, Wicked came out almost 30 years ago. It came out in 1995. So, the advocate, interviewed me. The year it came out, and asked me about how the gayness of The Wizard of Oz had attracted me and, you know, as a child and as an artist to use this material for my own work. And I didn't know what they were talking about. I said, what do you mean, the gayness of it? I mean, now I do, because I actually can learn. I learn slowly, but I can learn. But at the time, and they called

Jason Blitman: 27:53

plugged your toaster in

Gregory Maguire: 27:55

I finally did. And then I did. I make some toast, honey. The, uh, you know, I, they called me disingenuous, I think in the magazine, but I was not being disingenuous. They just didn't understand how, how possible it was. to be so very clueless and I was very, I mean, I was gay, I knew I was gay at that point, but I didn't, I didn't see the social implications of that film until after Wicked came out. But then Wicked is filled with it too. I did know I wanted there to be gay content in Oz because I thought, I want this place to be so real that it has to have people of faith in it and people of different faiths. And it has to have people who are sick and it has to have people who are mean and it has to have people who have same sex preferences. I want the magic world to be as real as our world with all its complications so that if there's anything we can learn from reading my story, we can imagine that it is importable. into the world we come back to when we close the last page of the book.

Jason Blitman: 29:05

to go back to Wizard of Oz for a second, while you might not have seen it as queer coded, there were still things, whether you realized or not, that were relatable to you. There were elements that, you know what I mean? So like, sure, it might not have been a direct connection. So I don't, it just perhaps wasn't, uh, at top of mind. Not only is it the whole friend of Dorothy, queer codedness of the Wizard of Oz, but there's also a history of gay men and our affinity and relationships to villains.

Gregory Maguire: 29:38

to villains and to Judy Garland,

Jason Blitman: 29:40

to Judy Garland!

Gregory Maguire: 29:41

all of that went, you know, you know,

Jason Blitman: 29:44

No, right, and the villain of course,

Gregory Maguire: 29:45

I was just sitting in my bed playing with my toaster.

Jason Blitman: 29:49

as long as you're not near water.

Gregory Maguire: 29:51

Yeah, don't splash me. But you know, it's funny because I was at a conference on last Thursday in Charlotte, North Carolina, this conference was a Wizard of Oz conference. And when I went out to lunch one day with a straight woman. Uh, and we talked about our love for The Wizard of Oz. I asked her, what moment in that film is the moment that made you feel the most? Whether it was terror or joy or satisfaction or relief, what was the moment of deepest feeling for you when you were little and you watched that movie? And she thought about it and she said, the moment that Dorothy pushes open the door and And Technicolor, uh, Technicolor Munchkinland is out there. Well, that wasn't mine, partly because I didn't see the movie in color until I was probably, you know, 28 or something, because we had a black and white TV. Um,

Jason Blitman: 30:46

So you had no idea what everyone was talking about.

Gregory Maguire: 30:48

I had no idea what everybody was on. I, you know, I, I, I, I really didn't get it. As I say, you know, few screws,

Jason Blitman: 30:54

So what was your moment?

Gregory Maguire: 30:56

my moment is back to your, you know, this refers to your question about the queer coding, even when you don't know that, that's what you're getting. My moment was when Dorothy turns to the three friends of Dorothy and she says to the Scarecrow, I think I'm gonna miss you. Most of all that always. Because I knew I was the scarecrow. I was the smart one. I was the first one. I was going to be the last one. I was the loyal one. I was not going to give up. And that was a very, you know, sort of gay man having, you know, preferring, to be with a single woman than to be with a straight man. You know, it was the same thing we're talking about. He loved her and she loved him for it. And I, on a certain way, to, to code, you know, over to Dr Seuss, my heart got three times larger that day, whenever I saw that scene, it just, it made me sad, but made me happy and made me sad that they were saying goodbye, but made me happy that Dorothy could realize his value. I suppose it probably made me think maybe somebody one day we'll see. My value, even if I have straw sticking out of my shirt and a painted face, maybe I will be recognized as having the kind of value that Dorothy recognizes in that person. And that's what I wanted to be. don't we all? You know?

Jason Blitman: 32:18

And, and here we are.

Gregory Maguire: 32:20

And here we are. And here we are.

Jason Blitman: 32:22

And I mean that, and I mean that really sort of wonderfully,

Gregory Maguire: 32:27

reps? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And of course I did eventually get with the program. I began to sing. You know, that, that, that when I would go read, there might be 300 people in the audience and there'd be about, you know, 85% women and the rest would be kids or gay men. And there'd be maybe three or four straight men who had to put their heads in a paper bag'cause they didn't wanna be recognized in that crowd. Uh, they were too gay adjacent, I guess. Um, but, uh, but I, you know, I figured it out

Jason Blitman: 32:59

And, and it wasn't as simple as clicking your heels three times. You like had, you put in the work.

Gregory Maguire: 33:03

Oh, I put it, I put in the work, but this is not all about me. It's about Elphaba. You know, I'm not going to go into my, my sorry, uh, my history of figuring

Jason Blitman: 33:13

No, no, no. But I, what I find so interesting is like, yes, it is. You just said it's about Elphaba, but I think what a lot of people don't necessarily know about you is you are tremendously prolific. You have a gajillion books out there, not just adult novels, but YA novels and picture books. And I mean, I only learned recently and cannot wait, cannot wait to get my hands on a copy of Making Mischief, the Maury Sendak

Gregory Maguire: 33:37

Oh yes. Oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:39

mean, like. You didn't just write Wicked. You didn't just write, you know, the Wicked years series.

Gregory Maguire: 33:46

Right.

Jason Blitman: 33:47

Your, uh, your well is very deep, Gregory Maguire.

Gregory Maguire: 33:50

I think there's been, um, you know, I think I have 42 books over a 45 year period. If I, if I And I'm slowing down a little bit. Um, I've also raised three adopted children with my husband and, and I've started and run nonprofits and for a while I was a college teacher and I lived abroad and, you know,

Jason Blitman: 34:11

This is about you. It is not just about Elphaba.

Gregory Maguire: 34:15

but, but you know what? I love standing behind Alphabet. Sometimes people, especially younger people say, what is it like to like go into the mall and be recognized? And I say that the wonderful thing about being in the entertainment business as a writer is that nobody, I mean, unless you're Salman Rushdie, Or maybe John Updike, or at this point, maybe Margaret Atwood. Nobody recognizes you as a writer. You can be totally anonymous. You're not a politician. You're not a performer. You're a spy. You are Harriet the Spy, still in your, in your cloak of invisible ordinariness, paying attention to the world and taking notes so that you can be more accurate as you try to represent the world. the yin and the yang of it the next time you go back to work. Now, it's equally true that when people mention that I wrote Wicked, they get a kind of a glow on their face, but I can walk out the room and ten minutes later pass this, you know, on the street, pass people who were hearing me speak and they don't recognize me because who they were seeing was a green skinned woman with a tall black hat. Elphaba will always be more recognizable than a tedious, old, middle class, white balding, schlubby, uh, Gregory Maguire. That's exactly the way I like it. I mean, I like to cute a little bit from, from a certain angle. Yeah. Lights are low and, you know, and as, as sometimes said, it's the perspectives, right? You know, I don't, but it's a one, it's a wonderful disguise to be a writer because nobody pays attention to you. You don't, you don't wear your talents, you Um, outwardly you wear them

Jason Blitman: 36:00

You also have very, uh, vocal about about sort of buoying Elphaba, and, and you, you've named her, but you are not, you didn't create her, you sort of, you, you amped her up a bit, you gave her her story, or you filled in some story, and then you're letting her sort of fly and do her thing, which is I think also really special and important. You have this reverence for the character, for the story, and, and sort of as a shepherd, less so, uh, a dictator.

Gregory Maguire: 36:30

Absolutely. I mean, I do have, I do have, you know, banks of lawyers to keep anybody from using my intellectual property without my permission. I, I won't pretend that I don't, but on the other hand, I am. I really do feel, I don't know whether you happen to have seen, there was an article in the New York Times about two weeks ago about the character of the Wicked Witch of the West. It was in the Sunday art section, and oh, it was terrific. one of the things I liked about it. Is that the, the author traces the iterations of the Wicked Witch of the West in the American consciousness. What did Baum make of her as a one eyed witch out in the castle of the Winky, in the country of the Winkies? What did MGM make of her when Margaret Hamilton was turned green. what did the Wiz make of her on stage and in the film? That's the iteration of which I know the least. I, I, I saw the film, but I don't have deep, you know, deep tissue memories of it. and what did I make of her? and the, The author did not go on to say what is, what did Broadway make of her and what, what will the movie make of her? That's the implication of that. But what the author stopped by saying, it's where she reaches the mind of Gregory Maguire, that she begins to be the person we've been waiting for her to be and the person we need. in this culture all along. And I wrote to this person, I think it was probably bad form to write to somebody who has complimented you in the newspaper, but I couldn't stop myself. I said, you have seen, perhaps more adroitly than anybody else that I've seen writing about my work, what it was I was trying to do. And you have also caught that not only was it pertinent 30 years ago, but it was almost prophetic. Look who we have running for president, you

Jason Blitman: 38:22

know, it's very alarming, and that's something I wanted to talk to you about too, just sort of the legacy, not just of the story of The Wizard of Oz, but the story of Elphaba as, you know, fighting the resistance. You know, it's like,

Gregory Maguire: 38:35

Yep, yep.

Jason Blitman: 38:36

it's unfortunate that, that it is as as important today as it was 30 years ago.

Gregory Maguire: 38:43

30 years ago, Jason, I thought this book might not actually make it. And then when the play was coming out, I thought the play might not make it because it was so retro. because it was handling things as if they might have been written in the 1950s when I was born. Oh, anything but. It just becomes more and more pertinent with the passing of five years.

Jason Blitman: 39:06

so funny that you say that, because my story with Wicked The first time I learned about it was, I don't know how, I, I'm a musical theater nerd, and when I was a kid, was on some, or a teenager, I was on some mailing list that teachers were on for like, New York field trips. And it was, it was like a list of all of the shows that were coming to Broadway, and you could select to go see it with your class or whatever. And so I, one of the shows in this pamphlet was Wicked, and it hadn't I think it maybe had started performances in San Francisco, but it certainly wasn't in New York yet. And I was like, this, the description of, you know, what happened. After Dorothy dropped in and the story of, or before Dorothy dropped in and the story of the Wicked Witch. I was like, this is either going to be a huge hit or it's going to be a flop and I have to see it. so, truly, booked tickets and went on a trip to New York because I was like, God only knows what's going to happen with this musical. And I, I'm, I love this concept so much, I have to go. And here we are.

Gregory Maguire: 40:13

And here we are. When I went to San Francisco where the out of town tryouts were happening, I saw it five times in eight days because I wasn't convinced it was going to make it to New York. And I wanted, I wanted to be able to remember it for the rest of my life. So I saw it. every night and a matinee too in the time that I had before I had to fly home. Little did I know 21 years later.

Jason Blitman: 40:34

Yeah, so special, you know, and, and what's so incredible that people I'm sure don't even realize, of course, is that while the book was a success, in the first eight years that it was around, never hit the bestseller list.

Gregory Maguire: 40:47

It's true. And thank you so much for dragging my name through the mud. It's true. It's

Jason Blitman: 40:53

the gag, the gag of it all is too that Stephen Schwartz has never won a Tony Award, but the joke's on everybody else, you know what I mean? So like,

Gregory Maguire: 41:02

it's too, it's so it's sold almost a million copies in the eight years before it opened on Broadway. And by most metrics, that's a best selling book. I'm a best selling writer. However, it didn't sell them all in the first flood. It was, it was the, the iconic sleeper syndrome, you know, people read it and liked it and bookstores started facing it out because it had a beautiful cover,

Jason Blitman: 41:28

hmm.

Gregory Maguire: 41:29

you know, in a, in a way that rarely charts like this for most artists. It's sold for the, about the first six years. It's sold more every six month period than the period before. Usually you have one chance. And that's the season it comes out. And by the second season, most of your books are remained dirt or pulped. And, you know, you have earned from them what you're going to. Um, and most of them, that's how most of my other books have performed. Not exactly.

Jason Blitman: 41:58

Listen, when you throw 40 some odd books out,

Gregory Maguire: 42:01

yeah, I've had three books that sold over a million copies. But Wicked, by far, has outsold the rest of my, all my work, put together.

Jason Blitman: 42:12

feel like I could talk to you all day, but just, I'm thinking about what I want to talk to you about.

Gregory Maguire: 42:17

Right. Right.

Jason Blitman: 42:18

Elphaba discovers that she has these powers, and then she learns how to harness them.

Gregory Maguire: 42:25

Mm hmm.

Jason Blitman: 42:25

When did you discover your own powers, and how did you learn to harness them? Hmm. Hmm.

Gregory Maguire: 42:32

we will have to talk all day in order to, in order to carry any of that. I mean, I, I knew how to draw. I had a natural talent for drawing. And as soon as I could draw, and I liked to draw, and I liked illustrations, as soon as I could draw, by that I mean in kindergarten, and I realized that writing, uh, was, uh, Letters was a kind of drawing. It was a sort of drawing of symbols. Actually printing letters was fun too, because it was a drawing. I would draw pictures and write captions and little by little in kindergarten, first grade, second grade, the captions got more extensive and more descriptive. And I began to realize I actually didn't have to draw everything in the picture because I could add it in the words. I loved doing that in early.

Jason Blitman: 43:19

Wow.

Gregory Maguire: 43:20

grade school. By the time I was fourth grade, I had moved from one school system to another one Catholic school to another. We moved to a slightly, to a better neighborhood. And, uh, I think maybe the nun in charge of the fourth grade class, sister Mary Perpetua, probably saw a, that I was talented and be that. I was lonely because I was a new kid in the, in this class.

Jason Blitman: 43:45

she encouraged, encouraged you to keep going.

Gregory Maguire: 43:48

She said,

Jason Blitman: 43:49

Sister Mary Perpetua.

Gregory Maguire: 43:50

marry Perpetual. She did, you got it. And I'm not making that up. Uh,

Jason Blitman: 43:54

I can't believe that.

Gregory Maguire: 43:56

would you write a play that we can put on for Thanksgiving? So it's like, I get there in September. By November, I'm writing the class play. It was called The First Thanksgiving. I won't go into it. Uh,

Jason Blitman: 44:06

the best. Oh,

Gregory Maguire: 44:10

and I got, you, you talked about when did I see? Well, I saw I was picked out by Sister Mary Perpetua. Other nuns and other teachers had already done it before. My parents had looked at my work and smiled. They hadn't actually read it, but they liked that I was industrious and I wasn't getting into trouble. But Sister Mary Perpetua read it and said, okay, we'll mount this. And we put it on, lasted about 10 minutes. If this were a two hour podcast, I'd be telling you the plot, but suffice it to say that 10 years later, 10 years after I was in fourth grade, I came back to that grade school and I became a teacher. I taught 7th and 8th grade English my first year out of college. What did I do with the 7th and 8th grade English, the fine literature class, you know, the special class? I took them to New York on a, in a van to see my special readers, my high end readers. to see Stephen Schwartz's show, Pippin. So, you know, I'm, I'm 21, got curly hair like the person playing Pippin, John Rubinstein, and I'm taking 14 eighth graders to see Stephen Schwartz musical. So, however, in the, in the faculty lounge at the Catholic grade school in Midtown Albany, New York, Um, we're sitting around saying, you know, what are we doing, when do we start putting up the Halloween designs and the Thanksgiving designs. And the current fourth grade teacher says, Oh, every year we put on this play called the first Thanksgiving that's kind of been handed down. It was my play. 12 years later, the fourth grade was still putting it on every year. So by the time, I mean, by the time I was in high school, in, you know, out of college, I had already basically written my first novel. It wasn't published yet. I hadn't sold it, but I had written it. But talk about, you look back at Sister Mary Perpetua, God rest her soul. Uh, even with a name like that, she was probably dead. And, um, you think we need these people who are not our parents. We need the wise woman in the woods. We need the witch in the tower. We need the, you know, the cat who, who will tell you the secret of how to get to the underground kingdom. If you make sure to give it half of your fish fillet, you know, we need these people in our lives. And I have had many of them. So that's probably, you know, in fourth grade, sister Mary Perpetual said, you can do this. And I did it. And so I kind of got turned on and I began writing. Fairly seriously then, and I was, you know, to quote Malcolm Gladwell and the 10, 000 hours that it takes in order to become a success at what you do. I entered into my own apprenticeship writing stories in fourth grade, and I wrote constantly until I was in twelfth grade, putting in a literal 10, 000 hours writing stories and novels. And I have most of them in my closet over behind that door over there.

Jason Blitman: 47:05

That's incredible.

Gregory Maguire: 47:06

podcast.

Jason Blitman: 47:06

I mean, and like, and so the body of work isn't surprising, and wouldn't be surprising to young you in retrospect, and wouldn't be surprising to Sister Mary Perpetua. You have been, you've been writing perpetually since then, and I'm obsessed. I,

Gregory Maguire: 47:24

like, you know, I, I can see our time is coming up, but because this is a gay, gays reading podcast, the truth is that reading fantasies and fairy tales, not just fairy tales, but fantasies like A Wrinkle in Time and Charlotte's Web and the Narnia books and Neverland and Peter Pan and Wendy and the Oz books, whatever I could find, wherever a child managed to escape the drear world, the gray, characterless plain of Kansas, to get to someplace else and find that they were still intact as a person. What better metaphor do we have for how reading helps children survive? Reading helped me survive, and it's part of why I've spent my adult life also writing for children, because I know There are little gay boys and little gay girls and little kids with every kind of debility and fear and trauma out there who need to see themselves in fiction and need to know if Meg Murray in A Wrinkle in Time can survive the Tesseract and save her brother, I can survive The Mean Girls in 6th grade and get to 7th

Jason Blitman: 48:37

it's so important. Thank you for sharing that. I really love that and appreciate it. Elfie is coming out in March of 2025. I have to have you back to talk about that. We didn't even touch on that.

Gregory Maguire: 48:49

Absolutely. Yes, it's probably premature to touch on it now. I have to go make my bed a few more

Jason Blitman: 48:55

You have to make your bed. One final thing. This episode is coming out the week that the movie comes out. The week that part one of the movie comes out. The book obviously has been a great success. The musical introduced so many people to the book. This is going to introduce so many young people like you were just describing to the story, to Elphaba. Is, is there one something that you want our listeners to think about or that you, to take away from their experience seeing the movie this week? What does it mean to you?

Gregory Maguire: 49:22

Well, it's always all right to lose yourself in a fiction. It's, you know, it's always all right. Because eventually, the film, the light through the camera goes dark, the curtain comes down, the book reaches its final page, and you are done with the fiction, but you are, not just are you still yourself, you're a little bit stronger, you're a little bit larger. You're a little bit larger of spirit and sympathy than you were before you started. I do believe that, which is why at the age of 70, I still read every day because I don't want to stop perpetually getting larger of spirit and of, and of soul and of heart.

Jason Blitman: 50:06

I love that so much of mind and of soul and of heart and of courage. Gregory Maguire. Thank you so much for being here.

Gregory Maguire: 50:15

Well thank you Gay Jason, um, it's been a real pleasure. I do feel like if, you know, if I were in the city where you are, that I would say let's have lunch, let's have a glass of wine, uh, but

Jason Blitman: 50:27

day we'll find we'll find each other in the same place and I can't wait.

Gregory Maguire: 50:31

It's been like having a glass of wine without the, you know, it's been effervescent enough for Champagne.

Jason Blitman: 50:36

And if, and if I was Rosie, I wouldn't have sung along, but we would have still run out at intermission and we would have kibitzed over

Gregory Maguire: 50:43

Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 50:44

the street

Gregory Maguire: 50:45

The terrible politics of the time and the need to protect our children, both of which we felt very, very strongly

Jason Blitman: 50:51

and still do, I'm sure. Gregory, thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Gregory Maguire: 50:56

Thank you, you too.

Jason Blitman: 50:57

I am so excited to have today's guest gay reader. You might know him from, uh, the national tour of Elf as Betty the Elf. You might know him from a commercial that you've seen on the television. You might know him from Scruff in West Hollywood. But you definitely know him from That's a Gay Ass Podcast, the one and only Eric Gay Ass Williams!

Eric Williams: 51:30

That is my legal middle name. and Jason, you actually have seen me on Scruff, um, more Los Feliz Silver Lake. Not to brag, but she's an Eastside slut.

Jason Blitman: 51:43

I Do not know LA. At all.

Eric Williams: 51:46

I forgive you. Just know that I'm a slut wherever I go. That's the most important thing.

Jason Blitman: 51:51

yes, you're a VIP.

Eric Williams: 51:54

Don't know why I immediately went into how slutty I am, but Jason, thank you for the gorgeous intro!

Jason Blitman: 52:00

Listen, you, you, I want you to live your best life and be your best self. And that is all. Yes.

Eric Williams: 52:07

Also, uh, Alpha Musical has not been used in my, one of my intros in years, and you are, as a theater gay, I'm just so, I feel so seen and safe with you, and a fellow Jewess, so Jason, we it's such an honor to be on your very gay, very good podcast.

Jason Blitman: 52:21

This is a long time coming. I've wanted you here for so long and I've, you have not written a book yet. So I like haven't gotten to have you on as an author. So we were waiting for the perfect moment. And even though you're not Idina Menzel, I'm still thrilled to have you.

Eric Williams: 52:41

I say that to myself every day. Even though I'm not Idina Menzel, I should still be happy to be who I am.

Jason Blitman: 52:48

Eric, before we get into all things Wicked, because of course you know you are on the Gregory Maguire Wicked episode, uh,

Eric Williams: 52:56

Huge.

Jason Blitman: 52:57

reading? What are you gay reading? I cannot believe you have read a book.

Eric Williams: 53:01

I know, right? She's a literate queen. I actually have been on a long, uh, a long path of not reading for a while, but I was such a nerd in school. I loved, loved reading. It was like my first gay Entree was like the Chronicles of Narnia. That being said, I'm currently reading a self help book because I what need help. And it's the universe has your back by Gabrielle Bernstein. I literally have like 10 pages left. So even bigger brag, but I just, there's something about a self help journey and like a really well written book that affects my whole life and this book has made me feel so much more positive. And I'm very grateful for my girl, Gabby.

Jason Blitman: 53:41

Are you taking notes in the margin? Are you journaling whilst reading?

Eric Williams: 53:46

What I do is I'll either make a note, like a notes app on my phone, or I will dog tag a page that really speaks to me. because I find that as a neurotic Jewess, I have a lot of self talk that can be really detrimental to how I feel about myself and what I'm doing. And whenever a book like this teaches me that, to change my pattern. I like really try to internalize that and if I feel like i'm not going to just remember it That's when I like dog tag or notes app on phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 54:21

Um, that's called inherited trauma.

Eric Williams: 54:24

Baby It's inherited. It's generational and i'm here to tell here to tell the tale, you know I very much have that if I can uh butter your biscuit, I think it's so smart the way that you have These incredible authors come on and then the gays talk about what they're reading with It's just like, it's really, really good. and I know as a podcast host myself, the hustle that goes into this and any chance I get to tell another host how how good their podcast is. I just, I think you're really killing the game. And it's so smart and I'm so honored. For a wicked episode? Truly.

Jason Blitman: 54:57

Thank you for saying what you said about the guest gay readers, but my sort of why that came to be is because I'm a late in life reader. And the more I started talking to friends about books, the more people were like, oh, I read, oh, I just read this. Oh, I've been meaning to get to this book. And it's, So many more people are readers than you ever realized. one of our mutual guests, the lovely and very handsome James Scully, was reading two books at a time! Who would have thought!

Eric Williams: 55:31

I find that reading for me is something I wish, I think a lot of people feel this way. You wish, You had more time to prioritize it, but I think that people like you who really are constantly reading, it is so good for the soul, and it's time that you're not spending on your phone, and I aspire to do more of it, because I really, really, really like Reading was not to sound you know a little therapy speaky, but it was like my first like fantasy safe space as a little closet a kid I was just reading magic and I was like a role doll Stan again, Chronicles of Narnia. I remember Aragon was like really long fantasy book I read. so yeah, I, I'm inspired by you and the podcast because I want to get back into reading more as an adult. It's so good for the soul.

Jason Blitman: 56:22

I, two things. One thing. I, always say, if you even just read five pages a day, it's more than what you are reading right now. And the other thing, it's not easy to put down your phone. Like, I am constantly fighting that urge to go check my email or who texted me. I, need to often put my phone away or on Do Not Disturb or whatever to just, like, sit down and focus. So it is, even though I've, like, built up the muscle, it still is very difficult. So

Eric Williams: 56:51

it's also

Jason Blitman: 56:52

too much pressure on yourself.

Eric Williams: 56:53

well, it's also good. It's been better like my sleep has been better when I read before bed and it's like my My mental health is better when I stop thinking about what's on my mind Instagram feed and start just like focusing being present on what I'm reading.

Jason Blitman: 57:07

Eric Williams, your podcast. That's a gay ass podcast. It is, of course, the podcast that asks whose fault is it that you're gay? And I, oh, thank you. I know you finished the whole, I like couldn't, I couldn't say that because that's like appropriation. That's podcast appropriation. Um, But, I have to say, I would bet all of my shekels that Wicked has made lots and lots and lots of little homosexuals.

Eric Williams: 57:40

Uh, including me. I literally am picturing 8th grade, summer, I think summer after 8th grade, I'm doing a musical theater camp, Jason. And they are showing us for the first time, the Tony performance of Wicked, with obviously Dean Z and Kristen doing Define Gravity. And I watched that Tony performance, like, did not blink a single time, felt the molecules in my body A line in the gayest way possible and it truly, in that moment, affirmed, reaffirmed, and created an even gayer version of me that is sitting in front of you today.

Jason Blitman: 58:17

Bless.

Eric Williams: 58:18

What was your what was your first wicked, when did you first uh, come across Wicked

Jason Blitman: 58:22

I think it was March of, what was that year? 2003,

Eric Williams: 58:26

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 58:29

uh, to see the original Broadway cast.

Eric Williams: 58:31

Whenever I meet someone who saw the original cast. I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity. I'm feeling I'm meeting someone who, like was around when the Ten Commandments were written. You know, like you, you were, you were in from the ground up.

Jason Blitman: 58:43

I really was, and even more so, so I was like, so obsessed with the idea of what this show could be. I had friends of mine got me for Hanukkah, the year that the show started previews, so in December of 2002, um, got me a bootleg of the, of a reading.

Eric Williams: 59:10

Oh

Jason Blitman: 59:12

Of Wicked. And so I

Eric Williams: 59:14

was it, was it Stephanie J Block? Who was the Elphaba? Was

Jason Blitman: 59:18

was Idina Menzel.

Eric Williams: 59:19

my god

Jason Blitman: 59:20

And the bach was Gavin Creel.

Eric Williams: 59:23

Oh my god. Jason!

Jason Blitman: 59:26

I know.

Eric Williams: 59:27

I, see what's, you know what's so sad about my life compared to yours is that the gift that I got for Hanukkah was the vocal selections sheet music? Published fucking book and you caught a like very secret bootleg of a very secret workshop that I didn't even know existed? Oh my god, I'm so sorry I,

Jason Blitman: 59:47

Don't be. Don't

Eric Williams: 59:48

well, no, it's like, it's like healthy happy jealousy. I, just, I, I, I think back to that time when Wicked came out and like the story that I tell that's brutal is that I listened to the cast recording so many times that by the time I saw the national tour, which was with Stephanie J Block and Kendrick Casabon played Glinda, who is From St. Louis Mo, where I'm from, uh, I couldn't understand a single plot point because I was so busy just like thinking about like the, the lyrics that they were singing, being taken. Like the set in, the choreography, and I truly could not tell you what the show actually was about besides the fact that there were like witches who belted, and then I did not see Wicked on stage until, We're gonna say, like 15 20 years later, when I'm living in New York City. I was about to move to LA. This is like the show, the final show I saw before I moved, like,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:36

five minutes ago.

Eric Williams: 1:00:38

yeah, truly, three years ago and um, I saw wicked on broadway and I was like, oh wow This show is really good guys Like, It makes sense the plot makes sense and I just like I was so gagged at how, It's such a well oiled machine. It just is. I couldn't, I could not take it in at 14 15 years old when I first saw it and now as an adult I'm just like damn damn

Jason Blitman: 1:01:01

I No, it's like, it's such a special piece of sort of theater history, and, and like, I, I do my homework for Gay's Reading, and I have, I do consume a lot of That's a Gay Ass Podcast because I adore you and I love listening to you. But I don't think I ever scrolled back and listened to episode one, for curiosity, I listened to the very first episode. Do you re I'm sure you don't, but do you remember what you talked about on that first episode?

Eric Williams: 1:01:30

Is that the one with ashley gavin.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:31

It is.

Eric Williams: 1:01:32

Um god, I I truly don't I

Jason Blitman: 1:01:35

No, that's okay. But the irony is you talk about villains.

Eric Williams: 1:01:41

disney villains came up. I remember that Jafar

Jason Blitman: 1:01:45

You talk about Jafar and sort of the camp of the villain and I was like, oh my god What Eric and I are about to talk about is the camp of a villain and not only is she like a villain She's misunderstood and in turn very like queer and she's a fucking like Beltres. So So not only do you relate Sort of on a human level to this character as a young queer person, but and she's belting her face off and you're like, wait a minute

Eric Williams: 1:02:13

You're like what's not to fucking be obsessed over I just want to say i'm so touched that you even thought to go back to listen to the first one and you being a fan of the podcast and it just your support Truly means the world to me and the fact that I mean We were talking about villains, it really, you know, pings for me, like Elphaba being fully green, Elphaba, again, like you're saying, being misunderstood, like, who among us as young queer people did not feel like we were essentially an alien amongst other people, and I, Am I allowed to drop that I saw the Wicked movie, um, last week?

Jason Blitman: 1:02:46

Well, yes you can That movie comes out this weekend I'm embarrassed to say you're allowed to say that you saw it and you're allowed to talk about it And I am very ashamed to tell you I've not even pre ordered tickets I

Eric Williams: 1:02:59

okay, be kind to yourself. But you do need to, you do need to, um, make that happen As long as it's, like, in this calendar month, I think,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:07

I need to see it like within a week. Like I

Eric Williams: 1:03:09

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:09

I can't It's gonna happen. But of course, it'll be me being like, wait, why does nobody have seats left? It's like, oh right, because all the other homos, bought the tickets

Eric Williams: 1:03:16

And to be, to be fair, speaking of all the other homos, I am married to a homo who made sure within seconds of it going on sale that we had our ticket. so had it not been him, I'd probably be a Jason Blitman, who'd be like, yeah, I'm going to see it within the week, um, but within the second of going, on sale. They went on sale, we, had seats for that night, um, so I, am excited to see it again, but I yeah, we I got very lucky through a friend got tickets to the LA premiere screening. And I, um, just like again the the villain of it all, the, the backstory of it all. It's like people, I think Elphaba is so misunderstood and you know, something that I identify with, if we can get a little deep into Elphaba's herstory is that she, um, is essentially born to a dad who kind of treats her like shit and while my parents treated me very well She was treated poorly because she was different and I feel like I was definitely treated Um in a way that was not the best for what I needed, Simply because my parents didn't understand me. And so while of course they were well intentioned, I was a gay kid amongst four, boys in a Jewish family in Missouri. So like, I really, really, I think even just hearing the music as a kid understood her feeling so like the odds were stacked against her and then. And like, thank God the movie is so good and just so great at giving a voice to that experience. And I think Cynthia Erivo is, you know, the perfect person to, to perform that. is Talk about the vocals, talk about the acting, just like, it's a slay. It's a slay.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:57

This is like the gayest thing ever. I desperately wanted Idina Menzel to sign my poster. And I knew she didn't come out of the stage door after the show. So I waited at the stage door before the show to catch her on her way in.

Eric Williams: 1:05:17

I'm gagged. I'm so gagged.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:19

Standing at the stage door, waiting in the snow, mind you, but I'm waiting at the stage door, and out comes the stage manager, or whoever, with the, like, At This Performance board, and it said, At This Performance, the role of Glinda will be played by, and it was an understudy, and, At the time it was Jennifer Laura Thompson playing Glinda. It was not Kristen Chenoweth. And I see the understudy coming to the stage door for work. And I, because I'm a little musical theater gay, knew who she was and what she looked like. And so I said to her, Oh my God, I'm so excited to see You go on. I just saw the board come out. She was like, that's so crazy. I like just got the phone call that I'm going on.

Eric Williams: 1:06:00

You knew more than the, you knew more than the cast knew.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:03

And, I have to say, she was incredibly brilliant, and I was like, This girl's gonna be a star! And it was Megan Hilty.

Eric Williams: 1:06:11

Standing ovation, a piece of herstory, and that little girl grew up to be Megan Hilty is the best way to end any story. Even if Megan Hilty is no part of any of my stories, I'm gonna say, and that ended up being Megan

Jason Blitman: 1:06:25

grew up to be Megan Hilty.

Eric Williams: 1:06:27

if she's not even a part of the story. That's incredible. Mazel tov!

Jason Blitman: 1:06:32

So, I mean, that was what started my, obsession with hearing other people do a riff or sing a song or do the show, because, like, you, like, once, once there were replacements coming in, and that was sort of the beginning of, not the beginning of the internet, like, of course not, but it was sort of the beginning of us, our generation, like, really being online, and I remember

Eric Williams: 1:06:53

bootlegs. Like, it was very bootleg

Jason Blitman: 1:06:55

bootleg, like I, the, The LimeWire recording of of Seikon Sangblo singing Define Gravity changed my life.

Eric Williams: 1:07:09

When you texted me before this, we were going to talk about our favorite Elphaba riffs. Seikon Sengbo came up in my mind. I'm truly, I'm truly serious because it was, I think, yeah, one of the first experiences of like someone making it her own. But And there was a singular growl that she did. There was such a like beautiful strength and obviously delicious belting. So, Seikan was huge for me. I do think that, like, Origin story when it comes to Riff Love is, say it with me girlies, Shoshanna Bean. I think that

Jason Blitman: 1:07:40

That is not what I was gonna say.

Eric Williams: 1:07:42

Were you gonna say Eden?

Jason Blitman: 1:07:43

I

Eric Williams: 1:07:44

So Eden is huge because of FIERRO FIERRO Wait,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:48

For me, it's uh, feeling things I've never felt.

Eric Williams: 1:07:53

things I've never felt. Oh, and actually And actually I think it was it was FIERRO, FIERRO I think that was I think That was might have been the Eden Espinosa one. Um, Shoshanna, if I may go to another riff, uh, source, is Seth Rudetsky had her go, wait, uh, it's Godspell, um, So there's something like a, And so that made me, like, really Shoshi, uh, fangirl. Um, and then just like, hearing her story about being, you know, like a standby, and then her, her, what do they call, it, uh, bootlegs on, for slime tutorials? Um, Hearing Shoshana's live tutorials, oh my god, I just, there was such a, she's, the riffs are so clean! Let's be clear though, I do give Eden huge, huge props. I feel like Eden and Shoshana were huge for me. Eden, my entry for Eden was Brooklyn, um, Once Upon a Time. Um, and, but now because I'm a gay person talking about Wicked, I feel like I want to come up with like, more niche, Oh, well,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:59

Go ahead.

Eric Williams: 1:09:00

you go. I need you to hear yours.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:02

Well, So I have three faves. I have like, I've seen Wicked way too many times. It's embarrassing.

Eric Williams: 1:09:10

Good.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:11

So I've seen it a few times on Broadway, but I also went to school in Chicago when the Chicago production was playing.

Eric Williams: 1:09:16

On a gas tire.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:18

I didn't see Anagostier.

Eric Williams: 1:09:19

Okay. Then you saw who,

Jason Blitman: 1:09:21

I saw Christy Cates. I saw Dee Rossioli. I saw The List Is Endless. But it was like a party trick for me to go and win the lottery and like, Go when family was in town or go on a date or go like it was I saw it So many times and I have to tell you my three favorite time

Eric Williams: 1:09:42

ready.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:43

Stephanie J block

Eric Williams: 1:09:44

Huge.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:45

Incredible Lindsay Mendez

Eric Williams: 1:09:49

Oh, that's a good one.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:52

Lily Cooper

Eric Williams: 1:09:54

I'm glad you brought

Jason Blitman: 1:09:55

I saw those are the three. those are my favorite three

Eric Williams: 1:09:58

I'm really, really, jealous of all three, but I'm really like, I saw SJB, but I did not, I wish I'd seen Lily Cooper. I think like it, we need to address how, while we love Wicked so much, it is fully insane that there were only really what, two black women who played Elphaba, um, Sehkhan Sangblo and Lily Cooper. Did anybody else?

Jason Blitman: 1:10:20

They were standbys

Eric Williams: 1:10:23

And they were standbys. Exactly. So like, and so, obviously, Cynthia Erivo doing the movie is incredible, but it's so interesting when you look at the, like, I don't know if you saw that red carpet picture, where they had Elphaba, they had Cynthia stand with a lot of the past Elphabas, and it's very like, oh, well,

Jason Blitman: 1:10:39

didn't see that, and that's, I I, honestly, I know what that looks like in my mind, and

Eric Williams: 1:10:43

exactly. and so it's just like when you, when I think about you singing Lily Cooper, I'm like, damn, like, it's no surprise to me that she was incredible. And I just feel like, like, you know, shouting out that fact is important because it is really insane that a 20 plus year show has that legacy. I really find it to be, especially about a fucking girl who's painted green about feeling othered.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:07

the story of a person of color?

Eric Williams: 1:11:09

Literally. So like, let's like, let's not not address that. Um, but wow, you got to see some really good ones. Wow.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:18

but speaking of super niche, Again, knowing that we were going to have this conversation, and I'm so excited to send this to you when we get off of this, I stumbled upon this girl. Her name is Emily Schultheis.

Eric Williams: 1:11:33

okay

Jason Blitman: 1:11:34

She was the Elphaba Standby on the second national tour. And when I tell you it is the best acted

Eric Williams: 1:11:44

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 1:11:45

an eye and defying gravity I've ever seen. I could not believe it. I was like, I don't know who this girl is. I'm a fan. I'm a Stan. I would watch this over and over again. She was so good.

Eric Williams: 1:11:58

I can't wait for you to send that to me.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:00

People can sing their face off and no one cares about the acting, necessarily. when both happens, it is magical.

Eric Williams: 1:12:07

I did a show with a girl who her dream was always to play Elphaba, and man she has been in it for the long haul, auditioning, auditioning, auditioning, and she ended up, I think, on the second national tour, being like, maybe in the ensemble, and then, like, the second understudy, and her name was Marie, um, I can't really pronounce it, it's E I F

Jason Blitman: 1:12:24

Yes, I know who she

Eric Williams: 1:12:25

Yeah, so she I finally when she went

Jason Blitman: 1:12:27

used to date a friend of mine.

Eric Williams: 1:12:29

Oh, love that She's so talented so great and she when she went on for Elphaba on that tour She of course like I looked up the slime tutorials and she just like sounded incredible. It just it's very it's such a cool Legacy to say you're a part of to like be able to play that part and god It's it's I love any any girlina who has played Elphaba, god bless you cause it does not seem easy

Jason Blitman: 1:12:54

Another good riff is I'd be so happy I could melt and go up, going

Eric Williams: 1:12:58

I'd be so happy, I could melt!

Jason Blitman: 1:13:02

That's the one.

Eric Williams: 1:13:03

God, I love it so

Jason Blitman: 1:13:04

Can I tell you again, gay ass, gays reading podcast. Um, there are compilation videos on YouTube that are like 15 minutes long the same people singing the same riff over and over again. And I sat and watched all 15 minutes and I wanted more.

Eric Williams: 1:13:22

I am truly married to the gayest man imaginable, and at any time of day, on a Wednesday, you will hear a compilation like that ringing through the halls of my small home.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:33

Courtney, take your break.

Eric Williams: 1:13:35

Courtney, take your break.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:37

Wait, can you, I'm wearing pink and green. Did you see that?

Eric Williams: 1:13:42

Elfie, you're green. I am.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:47

Eric Williams, I could sit and gush about Wicked and Riffs all day, every day. I don't know how I'm gonna cut this conversation down to a brief Wicked experience on Gay's Reading, but listen, like, it is Wicked week. People are gonna have to deal.

Eric Williams: 1:14:03

Any chance to gay out about Wicked is huge, but any chance to gay out on Gay's Reading is a very good day for this gay ass girlina. Thank you, Jason, for having me on, and bless you for doing the Lord's work.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:15

Thank you, Wicked. It is, it is not your fault that you made everybody gay, but

Eric Williams: 1:14:22

It didn't, it didn't help.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:24

It didn't help. Um, okay, bye!

Eric Williams: 1:14:28

Bye!

Jason Blitman and Eden Espinosa: 1:14:29

I have a guest gay reader on every episode and for this iconic, wicked episode I was like, I have to have a guest gay icon And I, like, am basically peeing in my pants that you're here with me, Eden Espinosa. you are a gay icon. You played gay icons. I will, I love being a gay icon. I will own it. You know, every other time I will deflect and like, you know, be self deprecating, but not this one. I'm, I, this title I take, Mother. Yes. Mother is mothering, all of it, all, yeah, I'm here for it all, gay icon, I crown myself. Oh my god, amazing. So my guest gay reader on this episode, his name is Eric Williams, and he hosts a podcast called That's a Gay Ass Podcast. He's amazing, the podcast is amazing, and every episode he asks his guest, whose fault is it that you're gay? And so obviously it's no one's fault, but we, I, I joked with him. I was like the amount of little homos running around out there where wicked made them gay. And more specifically, Eden Espinosa riffs made them gay. I love that. What an accomplishment for me. Um, so question one, because he and I talk about this. we, because we talk about some of our favorite musical moments in Wicked. And for me, imprinted on my brain is the iconic Eden, and I'll stand there with the wizard, feeling things I've never felt. Riff, how did that come to be? We have to know. Okay. So, story time. This is, you know, I'm the standby for Dina Menzel. You know, once when you originate something, everything's tailor made to your voice and, you know, pockets of things that are comfortable for you keys and, all that kind of stuff. And, wizard and I, in particular, sits in a very weird place in my voice. And so I naively asked even a remiss one time and I hadn't hadn't gone on and I, you know, and I was like, Is there any way that when I go on, like the keys can be different? And he was like, no, no, that's not possible. I was like, okay, great. So, you know, I, being the standby, I, I always just wanted to be ready. So especially in the beginning, you know, Well, and not to interrupt you, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but when you say standby, like, y'all, Eta Spinoza is the OG standby. Like, the only other human that the world has heard sing the songs Menzel. At the time. Yes. Right at the time. So, so that was a moment where you're like, okay, what am I going to do? Okay. Sorry. I just, just for the, for the children, I needed to go. Yes, of course. And a standby means that you do just that. You're, you're paid to be in the building and be there in case something happens. And you're the first to go on. If If she's sick or on vacation and then if you don't go on the understudy goes on um, so You know, I would I watched every single preview because I didn't get that much rehearsal time So I would keep track of blocking and stuff. But once the show was open I would We had a rehearsal room at the top floor that the stage was taped out So sometimes I would do the show along with the show Um, and once once I was familiar, I would just be in my dressing room and sing along sometimes just to keep my voice You ready and in shape. sometimes riffs came out of me harmonizing with her. Um, so sometimes they're a third above because I'm like, you know, or I would just like pop up and I was like, Oh, that feels easier. so a lot of my riffs came out of doing that and out of it being in an easier place in my voice. If it was just a couple of notes, it was like, and sometimes that's the case for people's, you know, sweet spots fit in different places. And so that's how that came to be. If anyone wants to know what was happening in the rehearsal room upstairs at the Gershwin, just YouTube Eden's name and you'll come across a bunch of them, I'm sure. this obviously is the Wicked episode. It has held such a legacy. You were in the show seven years in a row. Insane. So, it's been a part of your life for a very long time. Is there anything that you would say Elphaba taught you? Yes, you know, I, I, I did it from ages 25 to 32 left, you know, I would leave to go do other things. And then I, but, but I did a contract every year for seven years with breaks, obviously. But I think every time I came back to it, I learned something new about myself. Um, and especially my, like, act two Elphaba. I think earlier on I connected to my act one, Elphaba, very strong because I had similar experiences like bullying and people making fun of me and playing tricks on me or pretending to include me in a group and then we're all going to plan to wear a certain outfit and then the next day I'm the only one that shows up or we're going to wear Halloween costumes to school and I'm the only one that shows up in a Halloween costume that is not a sexy cheerleader like Humpty Dumpty. Like literally Mean Girls plot point. Oh my God. So I really, really identified with her, but I think, you know, that song Defying Gravity, like the older I got was more and more resonant because it's just like, Take the leap, you know, be the be yourself be the different person. be loud about the things you're passionate about I'm happy that people still want to hear me sing that song. People still want to hear me sing Wicked songs, and it's if I allow myself to be present and quiet with how it resonates with me presently at any given moment, it's very, strong and it's very, um, I don't know. It's just, uh, it's always a lesson sometimes I'm not ready to have it. So I'll just sing this, you know what I mean? It's like, I have to be able to let it penetrate my soul Yeah, I think most of all it's be unapologetically you, be loud about, about the things you have convictions of on. Yeah, it's really incredible like what music can do for us. Every once in a while in my, in my head, I'll hear, uh, the end of I'm here from the color purple. I'm gonna take a deep breath, gonna hold my head up, gonna put my shoulders back, looking straight in the eye. Right, like it's just, just this empowering thing that music can inspire you. And it's time to trust your instincts, close your eyes and leap, I think is also super important. I'm a, I'm a, My life mantra is leap and the net will come. Mmm, yeah. And it's, that's, I mean, I guess, Alphabet 2. Yeah, for sure. We're tight that way. Um, okay, we'll keep talking about Wicked in a sec, but I have to ask, because we're on Gay's Reading, you are the guest gay icon reader. Eden Espinosa, what are you reading? I have a, like, an on and off love affair with reading, because, um, I think it's, Partially because of my attention span. Yeah, and our attention span to really like Not just read the words and go, wait, what did I just read? And go, you know, you have to, but to really like take in a story. And it's actually one of my favorite things to, to let a story like engulf you when actual book, not a Kindle, not a, like an actual book. so I just started reading again, and making it a daily, even if it's just for like 15 minutes, it's one of my like new let's find down. So I am reading, um, Court of Thorn and Roses right now. And what's crazy is somebody recommended that book to me like two years ago and I bought it and I was like, I love, I love set. So I bought the whole set and I had been reading chapters one through three over the last two years, like literally. And then I can't. I couldn't get into it. Not that I didn't enjoy it, but there was something about it. And recently people would be like, just get past, just trust me, trust me. And yes, no, I'm almost done with that first one. So fun. Yeah. I love that. You know, it's so funny because whenever I tell someone like, I'm going to ask you what you're reading and it could be truly, literally anything. It does not have to be a book. Well, because like we. When someone reflects on just reading as a thing, we realize that we're actually doing it every single day, whether it's a novel or not. And yet every single person still wants to say a book, even if like what you just said, like, I'm not a huge reader. It took me a minute to get into it. I love when a story can envelop me, but I'm like, girl, you're probably reading your emails every day. And that is it. You really want to sit here and talk about a book that you're reading, which I think is so cool and really speaks to sort of the power of what You know, sitting in your bed before you go to sleep reading Court of Throne and Roses will do. Yes. Yeah. So fun. I have not picked it up yet, but I've heard it's It's fun. Delicious. Yeah, it's one of those worlds where it takes you a minute to get to know the places and the characters and all the, how they're all related and then there's some links. There's so many! Well, it's funny because when you said, I love. I thought you said you love sex and I was like, Oh, well, that's why you bought the books. I guess it could go either way. It's fine. So, so funny. so thinking about your career and, you know, I sort of, I didn't joke about you being a gay icon, because you are a freaking gay icon, but you've played Maureen in Rent. You've played Elphaba in Wicked. You've played Lampika. You've played, even, even Trina in Falsettos. Like, she's not necessarily a gay icon, but like, she's a part of an queer iconic story. That's right. I didn't even realize like how queer your career has been. Yeah. What does that, what does that mean to you? You know, it means a lot to me. It's funny because, you know, during the pandemic when we were Really starting to talk about the queer community we're getting to know more about non binary and trans people. And a friend of mine who's non binary said, well, Oh, somebody had called me queer and My sexual orientation is not, although I'm, you know, I'm open and curious about it, but I've never, you know, dabbled in that path, you know, so I said, you know, what do, what do they mean, like, when they said I'm, that I'm queer, even if I'm like, I've never dated women or a queer person or anything like that. Um, and. They were like, the way you present yourself, the spirit of who you are, and the way that you just, advocate for the community, are involved in the community, like, for some people that makes you queer. And I was like, work! I really, like, was like, I love that! And, and I just, like, I always want People to feel seen, and represented and having played queer characters before I, I never It was something when I, when I did Maureen and conversations that I would have with Michael of like, I, Michael Greif, I, I don't ever want a queer person to look at me and go, Oh, please, the straight person up there. Just because there are times that I've been in the audience going, I don't believe you. And whether that's your own judgment or you didn't have chemistry with the person, like, I don't know, that's not for me to say, but. I just never wanted anyone to question that. It was real and it's important to me and I'm happy that people, uh, regard me in, in such a way from, from the queer community and my work, and that makes me proud because I, yeah, I just want people to feel. I want everyone to be able to see themselves in, in, in, in art at any point, you know, that's important to me. And it doesn't hurt that you're talented AF. Yeah, I'd say that. There's that too. okay, so, why, why do you think Wicked has the legacy that it has? I, I've just told the story to both Gregory Maguire and Eric Williams, how when I first learned about Wicked, it was before it opened on Broadway. And I was like, this is either going to be a huge hit or a huge flop. I have to go see it right now. And my little gay ass from South Florida got on a plane at, you know, 15 years old with my dad and we went to go see, and I bought house seats to Wicked through a friend of a friend. And I saw the original cast because I was like, who knows what's going to be. Now here we are. Why do you think it's sort of stood the test of time as it has? You know, I think, I think everybody felt that at the beginning. We were all like, we don't know if this is a thing, even reviews were like mixed But I think ultimately what it is is it's a huge, it's huge. I think it's several things. It's the references and the world that America in particular is so connected to because of the Wizard of Oz and because of, the original stories and the, the original, um, movie. so it's familiar. It's something that we all know. And, and then it, it gives us like this, you know, as, as Joe Mantella would say, like, if the camera would pan over here while this story is happening, that we all know, we get an inside track as to what's going on over there. And beyond that, there's these universal qualities of the story of friendship, of sisterhood, of feeling othered. Political things happening in our environment that we feel out of control and helpless are giving us courage to stand up to the man. You know, there's, there's so many, the feeling of like, Peer pressure even of once somebody sees you or pins you as something Do I have to keep living up to that or can I? Can I break away from what people think I am or or people think I'm gonna be this then fine I'm gonna be that you want me to be this here we go. You know, there's so many human themes that I think people, and that's why I think the fan base is so varied, um, that parents can go with their kids and have an equally, uh, profound experience. Um, and so I think that's why it will continue and now with the movie, an even wider audience, and an even younger audience, it's just wild that, all these years later, I remember I was talking to a friend the other day who was in the original cast and I was like, remember when we used to ask like when the movie's coming out and they like, it's not coming out anytime soon, we need it to the show is, you know, the show is doing its thing. And it's crazy to think 21 years later, that yeah. Now, today's the day. Like, it's, it's here and it's wild. It's so wild. Yeah. You've said it publicly in other places before, but I will say, I can't wait till we see your Madame Morrible one day. I'm so excited. So, you probably are, you're probably most excited to be like, I'm going to sit backstage for most of the show. See y'all. That's right. So people can find you on, you're on Instagram. You have a bunch of your music, you have solo albums, you're on original cast recordings on the Spotify and all over the places. I have to say, searching for Brooklyn on Spotify validated my telling my husband that I have to keep all of my physical cast because it's not there on any streaming, but I have it. I'm so happy. It's like reasons like that, that I haven't gotten rid of like a super old. Laptop, because it's just, the laptop is basically dead, but I know I have music on there. Where else can the Children find you? Is there any did I miss anything that? No, you didn't. I mean, I have a website. I'm I'm thinking about amping up my tick tock. I have some idea. I just want it to be specific. But, um, But yeah, Instagram is the most that I'm on Insta. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.. I'm excited to see whatever this, the, I saw the glimmer in your eyes when you talked about Tik TOK, like I'm not even on Tik TOK, but. Yeah, I have some ideas, you know, but yeah. Amazing. Well, Eden Espinosa, thank you for being my first Guest Gay Icon. I hope you enjoy the rest of Court of Thorn and Roses. I can't wait. Thank you for talking about the legacy of Wicked. Happy Wicked. Happy Wicked. Oh my God.

1:31:58

Gregory Eric Eden. Thank you all so much for being here. Everyone happy wicked week. Have a wonderful weekend. See you next week. Bye.