0:04

Gays reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gays reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays reading.

Yeti Stereo Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: 0:32

Hello, and welcome to gays reading. I'm your host, Jason Blit man. Welcome back to those who have been here before, and those were new. I'm very happy to have you. On today's episode, we have author Christopher Bollen talking to us about his new book havoc. And our guests gay reader today is the insanely awesome. Simon Doonan has binned. Of previous guests, gay reader, Jonathan Adler. Uh, both of their bios are in the show notes. I want to give a quick shout out to a few books that are coming out today. December 3rd. All of them are queer. I'm excited about every single one of them. And in alphabetical order by author's last name. We have, I might be in trouble by January L men who will be on gays reading. What's the T next week. Roland Rogers. Isn't dead yet by Samantha Allen. Private rights by Julia Armfield sister snake by Amanda Lee co the shutouts by Gabrielle Korn and the rivals by Jane Pek. So many fantastic queer books coming out today. Make sure to check them out. Over on the gays, reading Instagram. There's some information about most of those books, if you are not following us, make sure to do so. We are acting as reading over on Instagram. We do giveaways all the time. You do not want to miss out. Uh, speaking of not missing out this Thursday, we have a super special bonus episode of the show. So make sure to keep an eye out on that. And there will be more information. Also on the Instagram. And if you like, and subscribe to gays, reading, wherever you get your podcasts, you will be the first to know when a new episode drops. We're also over on YouTube. So you can subscribe to our YouTube channel, the link to that. Is, both in the show notes and also in the link tree on our Instagram. And if you are so inclined to leave a five star review, wherever you are listening, particularly apple podcasts, that would be super, super helpful. Again to help people find gays reading. Also it's holiday time and it is a perfect time to get folks books for the holidays and no better way than with aardvark book club. as a lot of you have probably heard I'm partnering with aardvark book lab to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the USA can join and enter the code gays reading at checkout and get their first book for only$4. And that comes with free shipping aardvark book club is a fantastic monthly book subscription that ships to the U S and Canada. And on the first of every month, they dropped five to six new releases and it's everything from literary fiction to fantasy, to romance books that you have heard of books that you have never heard of, but you are going to be excited about because aardvark picks fantastic books. They're a great follow on Instagram. So check out aardvark bookclub.com. That's two H is H a R D V a R K. bookclub.com. You use the code, gays, reading and checkout. I know get a four Zalak book and you could get that as a gift. It's a great gift idea. And with all of that said, welcome to gays reading Christopher Bollen.

Jason Blitman: 3:48

So we try to do a lot of purging. Because,

Christopher Bollen: 3:51

I've been trying to do that actually here too. I've been throwing one thing away every day. It's tough.

Jason Blitman: 3:57

Like a paper towel,

Christopher Bollen: 3:59

it

Jason Blitman: 3:59

or

Christopher Bollen: 4:00

a paper towel, a rubber band. An idea.

Jason Blitman: 4:03

Those guys, you throw multiple of those away every day.

Christopher Bollen: 4:06

I have a, of robes that I have never once worn in my life, so I can just keep throwing those out

Jason Blitman: 4:12

How many

Christopher Bollen: 4:13

I, for some reason have five robes. So I'm good for at least five days if I can't find it, like a T-shirt. I don't know how

Jason Blitman: 4:19

you wear them

Christopher Bollen: 4:20

Never, I have never wor I think there was a period where I wanted to wear robes, and so I thought that if I bought them, I would wear them. But they, it's like one of those things that they didn't catch. When I get out of the shower Yeah, but then I kept them because I was like, maybe in winter, maybe it's just the wrong season. so I have that to throw out. But, uh,

Jason Blitman: 4:39

you just keep one?

Christopher Bollen: 4:40

I'm gonna keep one. Yeah, I'm gonna keep one. Maybe two.

Jason Blitman: 4:43

How long have you had them now?

Christopher Bollen: 4:45

But for years!

Jason Blitman: 4:45

very

Christopher Bollen: 4:47

For years. But I have so many things for years. But some of the things I'm so glad I've kept because I start wearing it, anyway, boring story. But yes, I need to purge as well. I'm trying. Trying my

Jason Blitman: 4:59

Yeah, that's fair. I could talk about so many things, but I do want to talk to you about your book, and then we can come back to other life

Christopher Bollen: 5:06

yeah, whatever you want to talk about. I'm totally down.

Jason Blitman: 5:09

sure you haven't yet, but now is a good time for you to workshop your elevator pitch for the

Christopher Bollen: 5:15

Oh my gosh, yes. Yes. Should I try?

Jason Blitman: 5:18

Yeah, give it a go. I'm here for

Christopher Bollen: 5:20

Uh, Originally this book was supposed to be a short story in my mind. So in a way, it was a much more condensed story I had. And it just blossomed and bloomed. So it really was supposed to be an old woman who is staying at a hotel in Luxor, Egypt. and tries to kill a little boy who tries to kill her. And so it's just two ends of life. Like the old, the very old and the very young trying to kill each other. And so that was really just like the genesis and the overall idea of the book. Even the two people in a room that you never hear from or like you don't listen to an old person and a young person.

Jason Blitman: 6:00

and they are for better or for worse more alike than they

Christopher Bollen: 6:03

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 6:04

Would like to think

Christopher Bollen: 6:05

As like maybe most opponents are, or like most enemies in a way have a lot in common.

Jason Blitman: 6:13

Too smart for their own

Christopher Bollen: 6:14

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 6:15

Out of context of the book, what does havoc mean to you?

Christopher Bollen: 6:19

The word itself, etymology, has to do with homewrecking and, entering and ripping homes apart. So in a way, as we find out, Maggie does that, with her meddling ways, it's like a, of an old woman, she destroys people's lives under her own delusion that she's helping them. And maybe she is, I don't know, there are some mysteries to, to what she does even for me, but havoc is also just like a state of chaos. I've been to Egypt a few times and I'm always so fascinated by the celebration of the gods of havoc or gods of chaos. The Greeks had them, the Egyptians had them, and so the word just kept coming up in my mind. It was, it actually was a title that came later but it felt so right because the word and the idea of just like total havoc, chaos insanity just kept re emerging all the time in the book, and havoc, it's a really weird word. You know why it's such a weird word? It's that people pronounce it differently. I keep hearing, my mom, for example, pronounces it, Oh God, I wish I could mimic. I can't do it. But it's so weird how she says it. And I

Jason Blitman: 7:31

I've never heard it any other

Christopher Bollen: 7:33

I say Havoc.

Jason Blitman: 7:34

Havoc.

Christopher Bollen: 7:35

I think she says Havoc. Is that a thing? I

Jason Blitman: 7:40

Where is she

Christopher Bollen: 7:40

wrong. We're both from the same place. We're both from Ohio, but Havoc. Havoc. I don't know. But yeah, we need to do

Jason Blitman: 7:47

I don't, I've literally never heard havoc,

Christopher Bollen: 7:50

I wish there was someone

Jason Blitman: 7:51

maybe she's right.

Christopher Bollen: 7:52

No, there's no way she's right. But it sounds preposterous. But anyway, yeah. What do you think of the word? I'm curious what you think of the word.

Jason Blitman: 8:00

It's funny because this episode is coming out in December. All the way back in September,

Christopher Bollen: 8:08

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 8:09

I was in conversation with Rumaan Alam for his new

Christopher Bollen: 8:13

Oh, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 8:15

I was talking to him about how I so rarely hear the word entitlement without a sense of in front of it. And Havoc, I feel like I so rarely hear the word Havoc without Reek

Christopher Bollen: 8:29

that's right. That's right. It's so funny. You're saying that because there's another word that I Just caught in the final manuscript you go through one last time and I caught that I had spelled the word amok wrong. A M O K, but I had spelled it wrong. But that also is another word where you never really have a muck without running before it.

Jason Blitman: 8:51

if it's Hocus Pocus, they just say a muck multiple times in a

Christopher Bollen: 8:54

oh yeah, okay, maybe they could even say havoc. But but you know there are those, there must be a name for those kinds of words that are like always linked to.

Jason Blitman: 9:02

Linked to something else. You so rarely hear it by

Christopher Bollen: 9:04

yes. What was what was his answer to entitlement? Did he have a good response to that word?

Jason Blitman: 9:14

Yes? It was this morning and I

Christopher Bollen: 9:17

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 9:17

and I like don't remember. This is my third conversation of the day.

Christopher Bollen: 9:23

I don't know. I was

Jason Blitman: 9:24

no, that's okay. Yeah, it was something good. You could listen to it.

Christopher Bollen: 9:28

And I also I will actually, let's do it. And I'm going to, I have that book actually right here. Oh my gosh. Look, I have this book, that book right here. I've got so much reading to do. I went this summer. I went to, I was on an endless vacation. I was supposed to be writing, but I ended up on this weird biography kick. And so I I didn't end up reading any fiction, which is so unlike me. And now I have a stack up to here to read.

Jason Blitman: 9:55

Was there a biography in particular that you appreciated?

Christopher Bollen: 9:59

It was about Lincoln Stein and the whole the whole like era of New York and dance in the 1930s. And it was amazing. It was really, I wish I could tell you the title, but I can't find it right now. But I actually read a few of them, and they were incredible. But it really put a huge dent in my fiction my fiction reading. Which is pretty much I'm always reading a fiction book at all times. As as a former New Yorker The Subway, any If I'm not carrying a book, something's severely wrong with me.

Jason Blitman: 10:30

Though it's funny. I was not really a big reader when I was living in New York and which is so bizarre that I now host a book podcast. No, I was a big podcast listener.

Christopher Bollen: 10:39

Ah, so that's how you got started. I'm so envious of your podcast abilities

Jason Blitman: 10:44

Why?

Christopher Bollen: 10:45

Because you have to have confidence in your voice and I have zilch confidence in the way I

Jason Blitman: 10:50

I hate my, the sound of my own voice. I've had people tell me that they, like my

Christopher Bollen: 10:57

I like your

Jason Blitman: 10:57

I can't listen to my own. Thank you. I used to sell merchandise at the Lion King on Broadway and every once in a while I would literally have a customer there say something about my voice and I was like, that's weird, but thank you. And now I guess I'm putting it to good use,

Christopher Bollen: 11:13

That's a that were you could you sing Yeah

Jason Blitman: 11:16

I could carry a tune in a bucket in high school, but no, I wouldn't call myself a singer.

Christopher Bollen: 11:22

I can't sing. It's part of a huge and talk about family. Yeah. No one in my family is musically inclined to talk But

Jason Blitman: 11:30

I'm

Christopher Bollen: 11:30

Havoc I know, it's been a long struggle. Havoc

Jason Blitman: 11:35

Maggie, our protagonist, you said something about meddling and I feel like she's like the opposite of a matchmaker.

Christopher Bollen: 11:43

Yes. Totally.

Jason Blitman: 11:45

When I think, you're talking about singing and it really made me think about Hello Dolly. I don't know how. You don't, you're not a singer, but I don't know what kind of gay you are. I don't know if you like theater. I don't know if you're a reader.

Christopher Bollen: 11:59

I like some theater. I'm like,

Jason Blitman: 12:01

I said hello, Dolly, and nothing about you changed.

Christopher Bollen: 12:05

I'm up and down on musicals. I'm

Jason Blitman: 12:07

Tell me

Christopher Bollen: 12:08

I'm really I am very finicky about musicals. There are some musicals I love and like any, I love Mary's Crisis down in the village and going Hear a

Jason Blitman: 12:20

My friend Franca is a pianist there. If you ever see her playing, tell her I say hello. Yeah.

Christopher Bollen: 12:26

I when next time you come to New York we have to go. I can't, I won't sing, mind you. But,

Jason Blitman: 12:30

we'll just be there and smile.

Christopher Bollen: 12:32

You can sing. I'm just doing, I'm doing everyone a favor by not singing, by the way. But I have, I love you. For example Company, Jesus Christ Superstar,

Jason Blitman: 12:44

Those are two very, very different.

Christopher Bollen: 12:45

different. I'm all over the map. But I'm not a fan of a lot of uh, musicals. They drive me nuts. I'm just, I'm not a snob. I'm just a particular. I don't know how to describe it.

Jason Blitman: 13:01

Sure. What's something that You Company and Jesus Christ Superstar.

Christopher Bollen: 13:07

Jesus Christ Superstar, I adore.

Jason Blitman: 13:09

Another one or two that you love? And then maybe something that really I'm just Those are just so different. I love Company, and I really don't like Jesus Christ Superstar. For

Christopher Bollen: 13:17

about? How can you not love Jesus Christ Superstar? Besides maybe like the Christianity of it. The songs are

Jason Blitman: 13:22

I don't, I find them hard to understand. Literally, I can't really understand the words. It's there's a lot of screaming.

Christopher Bollen: 13:30

Magdalene I love, judas gets a, finally gets a good shake in it. Which I'm always a fan of

Jason Blitman: 13:37

Finally!

Christopher Bollen: 13:38

I'm always a fan of

Jason Blitman: 13:39

Jude is having his moment.

Christopher Bollen: 13:41

I was like, he's obviously he's always getting a bad deal. I'm always looking for the way he's portrayed in Last Supper paintings.

Jason Blitman: 13:49

Huh.

Christopher Bollen: 13:50

and he has some wonderful tunes. I don't know. I don't know why

Jason Blitman: 13:53

They're just,

Christopher Bollen: 13:54

appealed

Jason Blitman: 13:55

that's okay. But what didn't you, what don't you like? What's something you haven't, I'm just now very

Christopher Bollen: 14:00

Oh, God. I can't say I don't like Hello, Dolly. And now I feel like I'm betraying. Musicals. Name some and I'll tell, name three musicals and I'll, I don't, you're going to kill me. I didn't like the Lion King.

Jason Blitman: 14:16

Oh, no, I, why would I kill you? I just sold merchandise there. I didn't,

Christopher Bollen: 14:20

know, but

Jason Blitman: 14:21

I it's quite boring.

Christopher Bollen: 14:23

I, yeah, I don't have any good answer as to why I didn't like it. I just, oh, actually maybe I do. I was like 23 when I went to see it and my parents came to visit me. I was in college in New York and my parents came to visit me and all I wanted to do was like wrap it up with dinner so I could go out with my friends and I had to sit through So that was probably why I didn't like it.

Jason Blitman: 14:46

Fair.

Christopher Bollen: 14:47

if I were, if in other circumstances, perhaps, but

Jason Blitman: 14:53

if had it, were sitting next to a Frenchman and who was very handsome, then you would have appreciated

Christopher Bollen: 14:58

sure. I could sit through anything with that. But I,

Jason Blitman: 15:00

I bring up Hello Dolly

Christopher Bollen: 15:02

oh yeah, because,

Jason Blitman: 15:04

to your book,

Christopher Bollen: 15:05

oh, okay.

Jason Blitman: 15:05

because Hello Dolly, she's a matchmaker and she meddles in order for people to fall in love. And I was like, oh, this is like literally the opposite.

Christopher Bollen: 15:14

The anti

Jason Blitman: 15:14

Where she's meddling to, where she sees these glimmers of unhappiness that she wants to help push over the line. But perhaps leads to a lot of misunderstandings. The book is a great example of maybe nothing is quite what it seems.

Christopher Bollen: 15:33

I love the, as someone who loves hotels and is fascinated by hotels. The way that people allow themselves if you stay For more than a night at a hotel you get to know the way people Interact you watch these families you see their vulnerabilities And it's so easy to manipulate them, you know if they're staying for a few days not that i've done that it's so it was just like such an Such a joy to play with those. Situations where someone can really especially someone in the guise of a sweet old woman You Can really take advantage. And

Jason Blitman: 16:09

and it's funny you say guys, because similar to nothing is what it seems, right? She's not even putting on an act, necessarily. She's just, no one is paying attention to her in a way beyond, she's, looks like a sweet old woman, so therefore that's what she

Christopher Bollen: 16:25

Yeah, exactly. Because she's overlooked as a person, because you don't really care about the old woman, sitting by herself. And, it was, I think the real trick of the novel for me was because it's all in it's all from Maggie's point of view. And I think you could actually write a novel that's all from Otto's point of view. And Maggie would just seem like this insane old woman that you want to destroy at a hotel. And you could totally relate to Otto being like, who is this crazy old woman? Kill her. But It was, I knew I had to get the reader to be on Maggie's side right away, even though she was doing like terrible things. She's a terrible manipulator. She's destroying people's relationships. She's, sabotaging.

Jason Blitman: 17:12

Mm hmm.

Christopher Bollen: 17:13

And yet I wanted to make her charming and someone that you are rooting for despite this. And so it was a very a fine line to walk where you had to make her engaging and funny and humorous and clever. And yet see her do all of these things and still give her a pass on it. Or, you know, enjoy. the, psychological warfare that she was engaging in. It was all in the voice,

Jason Blitman: 17:40

Sure. What you just said, the psychological warfare it comes up, the, I think she says something about unraveling a life doesn't take as much work as you'd think. Has that idea ever crossed your mind?

Christopher Bollen: 17:54

Well,

Jason Blitman: 17:55

Looked at a situation and thought, If I just pull this tiny thread, I know that this, that could unravel.

Christopher Bollen: 18:03

I think that there's sometimes when you, I would never believe it or not. Like I, I reserve all of my maliciousness for my characters. I'm actually a sweet old man,

Jason Blitman: 18:14

That's why, I didn't, I'm not asking if you did it yourself, but if you had the urge, and the urge was putting a, and you took the urge and put it into a character

Christopher Bollen: 18:21

I think that you do when you have a group of close friends or you have a friendships and secrets that say you have a friendship with a couple and you know, a secret, like one of them cheated or something and the other doesn't know, you know, that like, there is something that you have, I mean, you would never

Jason Blitman: 18:38

like have ammunition.

Christopher Bollen: 18:40

never use it. My God, you would never use it. But I think that there's an idea that like, gosh, there is something in this relationship that could be. Destroyed instantly and how terrifying that is and that it's out there, but they don't one person doesn't know yet Not that you would even pull the string but that the string is there to be pulled

Jason Blitman: 18:57

Sure.

Christopher Bollen: 18:58

Those are always so interesting. That's always so interesting. That's what's interesting about It's not really what's interesting about relationships. The interesting part is actually the love but there are all these fault lines with people and they can be exploited by terrible parties. I can't say that i've ever destroyed a relationship. Maybe in my young days, I I caroused around in my 20s and probably, wreaked havoc if I could. Thank you. I already used it three more times throughout the and no, but but yeah, but

Jason Blitman: 19:31

Yeah. I,

Christopher Bollen: 19:32

it was fun to think of ways for Maggie. The various ways that, that a character like Maggie could. exploit Strangers weaknesses. I mean she's not in their home. So it's there's a level of Openness, but there's also a level of closure with people in a hotel Especially I mean during the pandemic they're staying for a lot longer. Finally

Jason Blitman: 19:57

You talking about wreaking havoc in your twenties made me think about the only time I remember even maybe doing something somewhat similar. I was. I was at the Ninth Avenue Saloon,

Christopher Bollen: 20:11

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:13

And there, I like met this group of people and there was a guy there who was there with someone else. And the someone else was sort of an asshole and he was not the guy that I had met was clearly much nicer, deserved better, and I made it my own little mission that night for him to come home with me and not with the other guy.

Christopher Bollen: 20:35

ouch. And did it work? Wow. Well done.

Jason Blitman: 20:42

Yeah, funny, I have not thought about that until it's been many years and it just popped up

Christopher Bollen: 20:46

And now looking back on it, do you feel any guilt or are you still a proponent of it? I still think, I'm trying to think if I ever did that. Probably.

Jason Blitman: 20:54

Similar to, Maggie probably felt like the person deserved better and therefore would be better off. And I think I might feel that way too.

Christopher Bollen: 21:05

I do think that Maggie in her delusion does think. That she's doing the person a favor. That's the thing about Maggie is I do think that she is sort of a good person. I think if she's a conflicted person. So I can't, you can't, I don't think of her as this sort of this grand evil or antagonist, or monster. She does do monstrous things, but there is something kind hearted about her. Something good that's quite warped.

Jason Blitman: 21:35

And something that comes up a lot is the idea of intention, right? And that's sort of where a fine line is, because her intentions might be good, but how you get there is bad, perhaps, and she'd feel guilty to do those things, but the outcome is still well intended. Yeah.

Christopher Bollen: 21:57

Right.

Jason Blitman: 21:58

It's so funny that you talk about your love for hotels, my sister is the front office manager of a relatively famous hotel in Santa Monica. And

Christopher Bollen: 22:08

Which one?

Jason Blitman: 22:09

I'll, I don't mind telling you, I won't put it in the episode but I'll tell you. I think it's 80 rooms or something. So it's a very intimate, she knows all the guests. So this is a book that she would

Christopher Bollen: 22:19

Oh my God. Send it to her.

Jason Blitman: 22:21

no, I will.

Christopher Bollen: 22:22

I love that idea of a job. I love, I'm so intrigued by hotels. I think like I'm always still even I'm in my late forties and I'm still thinking what do I really want to be when I grow up? And then I guess sometimes I think like a cinematographer, an oceanographer, then like sometimes I think I would love to have a hotel. That's always big on my list.

Jason Blitman: 22:43

Not long ago, there was a motel for sale in Palm Springs that my husband and I looked into buying.

Christopher Bollen: 22:51

what stopped you?

Jason Blitman: 22:54

It was overpriced, and it was not, it like wasn't the right thing, however, our excitement over it in concept, we were like, oh, good to know that was something that we were really

Christopher Bollen: 23:06

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:07

of,

Christopher Bollen: 23:08

I think it would be fun.

Jason Blitman: 23:10

yeah, you could come, you'll come be a part time

Christopher Bollen: 23:13

I think the food would be hard. The food aspect would be hard for me, but everything else would be more natural.

Jason Blitman: 23:20

what do you mean?

Christopher Bollen: 23:20

Like having to do like a dining room and the kitchen and that whole aspect, I would probably not be as good at. But I think managing the hotel and the decor and the rooms and the service and everything else, I would

Jason Blitman: 23:34

Wait, why wouldn't you be good at the food part?

Christopher Bollen: 23:36

feels like beyond my domain. I feel like that's a

Jason Blitman: 23:39

That's normal though, I think.

Christopher Bollen: 23:41

think you'd have to, I'd have to outsource that to someone who could get that together. Look, I'm just being honest with you about my skill

Jason Blitman: 23:50

that. I appreciate that. And now we're recording. It's documented, so moving forward,

Christopher Bollen: 23:57

think that I would, to hire me for as the general manager with restaurant skills, because I actually did wait tables back in the day, but but I just, I still don't know if I could handle the restaurant.

Jason Blitman: 24:11

Now I'm very curious, like today. If suddenly writing didn't exist anymore, what would you want to do?

Christopher Bollen: 24:18

I would love to, I always thought that I would be a great cinematographer. And I think about this all the time. It's who doesn't love films? So saying I love films is like saying I love food. But,

Jason Blitman: 24:31

don't know, I'm not a huge film person. I don't dislike movies, but I'm not like, I'm not like a film person.

Christopher Bollen: 24:36

interesting than saying I love films, than saying I don't love films. But I do, I think it's really interesting to me that it wasn't presented to me as a viable career when I was young. I loved films when I was a child, but never did it ever occur to me to be a director. No one ever suggested that as a realistic option. Whereas writer, I knew from second grade that I wanted to be a writer. It was that or private investigator. And that I, and I knew even then I was so practical that was probably not as interesting as it sounded. So I always wanted to be a writer, but I wish that I had taken film classes. And I think that would have been, a great path to take. But,

Jason Blitman: 25:18

feel like you've missed the

Christopher Bollen: 25:21

no. Yes. I don't feel like I've missed anything, because there are great people doing it, and I don't know if I'm needed. But I do, I think it would have been fun, I think it would have been fun to

Jason Blitman: 25:30

That's fair.

Christopher Bollen: 25:32

So there's that.

Jason Blitman: 25:33

You should do, you should make like little trailers for your books, and you could be the cinematographer of those.

Christopher Bollen: 25:39

it's true. I'm just so bad now, I feel like I'm so behind on the technical aspect of things. Yeah. As you can tell by my not knowing the difference between Safari and Chrome.

Jason Blitman: 25:49

You lucked out just fine.

Christopher Bollen: 25:50

but you know there's also a, there's also a little a little mention in Havoc where Ben, who is an Egyptologist, for lack of a better term he makes a comment about how he wishes he weren't an Egyptologist because everyone's so obsessed with the field. And that he wishes he were doing 16th century Prussian enamels because of so the disinterest of it. But I am endlessly jealous of people who are have who are experts in this insanely esoteric just bizarre little niche corner of the world. And I wish I could find that for myself. I wish I could find this just little, bizarre nook that I was the specialist in. And maybe I would go pursue that if I didn't have writing. It would probably be something like, something artistic like that, but some really bizarre,

Jason Blitman: 26:43

But very

Christopher Bollen: 26:44

of the, some age. I don't know, I think that would be fascinating.

Jason Blitman: 26:49

I've had really interesting conversations with all sorts of people who have

Christopher Bollen: 26:53

Pivoted. I'm always

Jason Blitman: 26:54

changed their version of the path. Even someone like, Angie Kim has become a friend, and she was on the podcast, and she didn't write her first book until she was like, in her late 40s, early 50s, something like that. It was like a very different world for her. She was a lawyer. Mm

Christopher Bollen: 27:12

Novel writing a lifelong career? And I don't, I go back and forth on this and I don't have a solid answer, but I actually think to presume that it is, and that every single person should continue writing novels until they die is bad for writing, actually. Because not everyone has endless numbers of books in them, and there's this idea that one has to keep producing forever. So I'm always impressed by those people, Who like write five books and they're good, they don't have to be brilliant, but they're good, and then they just stop and do something else. I find that so brave, as opposed to just like endlessly writing another book, even though maybe they don't even like it that much, maybe it was like a, you know,

Jason Blitman: 27:57

right. I mean, You look at someone like, Harper Lee, who only wrote To Kill a Mockingbird. Or at least who only published To Kill a Mockingbird. And I think the idea was like, that's what she wanted to put out in the world, period, the end. And that's something I find scary, but also very admirable. I was just talking to Abraham Verghese about The Covenant of Water, and it's this like epic novel. And he said something along the lines of not being sure if he has another book in but because that is. His tendency is to write that he imagines that something will come out of him but he doesn't want to give himself the pressure of needing to continue to write if that's not what's happening.

Christopher Bollen: 28:38

always give, give myself the pressure. And then actually, this is my sixth book. Is this my sixth book?

Jason Blitman: 28:44

I was just gonna ask.

Christopher Bollen: 28:45

my sixth book. And I was like, maybe I won't write another book right away. So then I went away for the summer and didn't really write much. Cause I had this book in mind for a male prostitute in Paris. Which is the next book I want to write. And You know what? I got back last week, and I instantly sat down and I turned out two chapters, and I'm totally back into it. And it's of course I'm writing this book, and of course I want to keep writing. It's weird,

Jason Blitman: 29:10

because you googled male prostitute in Paris and that got, that inspired you.

Christopher Bollen: 29:14

Hey, I look for inspiration wherever I can find it.

Jason Blitman: 29:17

Yes.

Christopher Bollen: 29:18

But, it is true you have to keep it, find the inspiration and then it keeps it exciting. It's actually been really fun to think about this. Not the male prostitute just because he's a prostitute, but just the story about it is exciting. But I, I went to a I was writing an article on Newport in Rhode Island. And I had no business writing about Newport because I don't know anything about it. It was like, The old historic homes, like the breakers and all of that. Anyway, I went there and I went to a hotel and like, you need to meet Basil. the psychic and have your cards read. And I was like, I really don't have time for that. Cause I'm not someone who really likes getting my cards read or any of that stuff. And they're like, not me, Basil. Like she said, she was like a national treasure. You have to. So I did. And she was amazing by the way. And I really loved it. But she said something to me. She read my cards and she said, you will write nine books. You'll start your 10th and something more happen. And you won't finish it. And so I have really embraced this idea that I'm going to write nine books and that'll be the end. So I'm right. This is the six, I'm writing the seventh. I really only have two more to go. And then I'm not even touching the 10th I'm afraid I'll

Jason Blitman: 30:36

What's gonna

Christopher Bollen: 30:37

soon as I start.

Jason Blitman: 30:39

Oh my god.

Christopher Bollen: 30:41

I really enjoyed it. I didn't think I would, and I really, what, are you a believer? You're probably like me. You don't not believe, but you don't,

Jason Blitman: 30:52

A skeptical

Christopher Bollen: 30:52

yeah, something like, I'm game, right? I'm willing

Jason Blitman: 30:56

No, I'm gay.

Christopher Bollen: 30:57

gay and game. I'm gay, so I

Jason Blitman: 31:00

Yeah. I'm like, open-minded. And you, I, it's, I feel like it's one of those things where you like, take what you want from it

Christopher Bollen: 31:08

sometimes I'm really into the fact that I'm a Sagittarius, and then sometimes I don't really care. You know what I mean? It's it's when I feel like it.

Jason Blitman: 31:16

I don't, it's not like I read my horoscope every day. I know I'm looking forward to it. At some point in the book, because, I do want to talk more about your book. Part of, I think, why Maggie meddles is because she could see relationships in quicksand. What does, what are signs of relationship quicksand to you?

Christopher Bollen: 31:34

I write, it's so funny. I went to Egypt and did a trip down the Nile. This is where I got the idea for this book because I was at this amazing hotel. which I based the hotel on. It's called the Winter Palace. It's a very famous hotel in Luxor. And I'm sure I'll never be allowed to stay there again. But I changed it a lot. So it's obviously not the same hotel. They do have those birds in the back though.

Jason Blitman: 32:00

And someone does ring a bell every night and you go watch the sunset.

Christopher Bollen: 32:04

Yeah, and there's a murder. But and little boys die there. No but I was with my boyfriend of 11 years. And then it was like at, it was like the April of COVID. After COVID and it was like the first trip, first flight we could get out. We had just gotten our shots, it was like right away. We were so stir crazy, but anyway, we broke up like literally a week after we got back from, we had been together for 10 years. So I know nothing about like signs of actually I do. I'm, I think that maybe was like somehow subconsciously part of Themes of the book, like so much of life gets encapsulated in these things. So I think just like settling is in this sort of unhappy way. I don't think it's anything so dramatic is just like the sort of tedious look on your face. When you look at your partner, that shows that this is like that you're stuck. There's nothing worse, I almost think fighting is better than just like the silent stuckness of a relationship.

Jason Blitman: 33:09

I like don't need to pry, nor do I need to put anything on the episode, but you did say you were with someone for, 10 plus years. And I'm like, Oh, I was, I'm with my husband for 10 and a half years. And I'm just

Christopher Bollen: 33:23

you probably, you, no, you two probably had much better communication skills.

Jason Blitman: 33:29

We are quite good at

Christopher Bollen: 33:30

We were not good at communicating. We were terrible. And, we were not happy. I was I wasn't happy. And he wasn't happy. And we couldn't, it was, we had stayed too long at the fair, like it was, like, it was, neither of us could, it was one of those accelerators that, that Covid created, like we realized it was awful. But I'm so happy it happened. Because as now I'm dating the French, I have the French boyfriend.

Jason Blitman: 33:55

Yes. Which we love, and I

Christopher Bollen: 33:57

we love. Yeah, no, exactly. He's not a male prostitute. That's, that's not that I'm

Jason Blitman: 34:03

No, thisI'm talking about book nine. You'll end on some fantastic love story,

Christopher Bollen: 34:08

that's a good idea. But but no, but 10 years is a long time. Kudos to that. Cause it's.

Jason Blitman: 34:13

Yeah.

Christopher Bollen: 34:14

It's strange that it's funny being I'm 48 and starting a new relationship at, I guess I was 47 when I started this new one. It's weird. Like you get to a certain point in life as I was right before this breakup, I'd been with the last guy for 10 years. And it's almost I'm too old to start over. Like I can't start over. Like I'm middle aged now. This is it. And so it's a blessing in a curse. So I think that's actually what Maggie's doing. She's seeing people similar to myself, who are just like going through motions and being like, I can't, it's too late to change. And she's ripping them, forcing them out of that. And pushing them in a different direction. And I think it's a blessing in a curse. Frankly, I don't think it's a good thing that she's doing because people have to come to their own conclusions. But I will say it was such a gift in a way to be able to start over. I'm not encouraging you to break up with your husband, but I'm just saying like it is amazing at

Jason Blitman: 35:10

we don't need to, but I think if you're in a situation where you might, that's a different thing.

Christopher Bollen: 35:15

Exactly. And it was just like it's a gift in middle age to rethink your life. It's pretty magical. I don't have children, so that's a, totally different thing. And a lot of the people in the book, obviously that Maggie's screwing with, I do have children

Jason Blitman: 35:30

perfect segue to something else I wanted to talk about. There's a quote in the book that children aren't the world's inheritors, they are its thieves. The idea of skating by on hard work of the generations before them, and I had never really thought about it that way. And not only is it people who are able to, benefit from previous generations, but also it's those, it is younger people who are in turn replacing the generation before them. So thieves in multiple

Christopher Bollen: 36:02

I was just thinking of all of the, like the. The built up hostilities and animosities that the old must have toward the young and that the young don't even think about and they just take for granted and, they just we can all claim that we know the young because we were all young. So we have that. I am not yet. 80, 81 like Maggie is, but I can feel already at 48, a certain bitterness towards youth. Maybe it's because I live across from a college. But I like the, just the sort of, Non appreciation for what the people who have paved the path for you. But also, you're right, if there's a war between youth and age, youth will always win. Because youth does win. Because age by the laws of nature has no chance. I liked this idea of Maggie's impossible odds of beating Otto in a way. Because he is eight. But just like having that instead of that loving embrace of youth and its folly from an old person, just turning that against them is just like this hatred of what they just blindly take for granted And feeling, it's like, it must feel like she's obviously the bell ringer in the book. And at one point he takes, steals her job from under her, but it must be what everyone is forced into retirement feels like when someone younger comes along and takes over their office and job and leaves them like with a box take to their car. That was fun to play with, like all of that.

Jason Blitman: 37:41

Emotionally preparing yourself for the

Christopher Bollen: 37:42

It is. It's true. It's like I worked for a lot of magazines before I became a novelist. I still do, there was a time I worked at interview and as an editor. And there was a time when I was like the youngest person at interview. And then there was a time I swear to god It was only like five years later when I was literally the oldest person at interview and culture changes so quickly and Like at one point you're like you're rolling your eyes because no one in the room knows these people you're talking about and then five years later They're rolling their eyes because you don't know what the hell they're talking about and it's just like it's amazing to experience that And I think also I was so attracted to the idea of age because I had been writing in my previous books, about these like youngish, good looking, attractive, gay, sexually exciting characters. And I felt like maybe I was I hadn't dealt with this whole vast world of of people, and so I really, it was exciting to just go about a character that I hadn't really explored and and see the world from her point of view, it was and I loved it, it was amazing how easily I slipped into Maggie's shoes, the voices came right away screaming out of me I don't know what that says about me,

Jason Blitman: 39:00

It's funny that you say see the world from her point of view because earlier you talked about, writing in first person and how if the book was written from Otto's perspective, obviously it would be a very different book and how she would come across to the reader rather than the other way around. And I think. as an exercise in thinking about it. It's just a nice reminder as a human that we only have our perspective.

Christopher Bollen: 39:29

Yes, I think that there were certain choices I could have made in the book because And I had a lot of conversations with my agent about it. His bill who's such a great reader, too we talk a lot about it and I didn't want I wanted auto to be believable because I didn't want him to be he's an evil little brat of a child, according to Maggie, from her point of view. But I didn't want to ever tip him so far over into omen territory. You know what I mean? Where it's oh, he is the devil. And I wanted her to feel like he was the devil, but I also wanted the reader to be like, have moments where it's is she just completely crazy? And he's maybe, he's like a jerk, but is he that bad? It is about point of view. And so I really do think like there is a valid case for auto to make that. He's ridding the world of this or trying to rid the world of this monstrous old woman.

Jason Blitman: 40:23

Yeah.

Christopher Bollen: 40:24

Who's doing terrible things to people who are visiting hotels!

Jason Blitman: 40:28

right, and as I said to your publicist I would read a chapter and then put the book down'cause I was stressed out. But then I'd have to immediately pick it back up because I needed to know what was happening next. But I was like, I'm too stressed out. I'm putting it down and then I'd pick it right back up again. Also the cover, I'm obsessed also. I match.

Christopher Bollen: 40:46

you do! My god, I have to borrow that shirt!

Jason Blitman: 40:49

Look at me.

Christopher Bollen: 40:50

know, that's amazing!

Jason Blitman: 40:52

I'm obsessed. The cover is

Christopher Bollen: 40:54

Oh, thank you so much! I love the idea of the staircase, because it's her mind, it's like a, Like the

Jason Blitman: 40:59

her mind, it's the hotel, it's all of it. Yeah. And I don't know if you could see on my little tabs,

Christopher Bollen: 41:06

thank you so much for reading it.

Jason Blitman: 41:08

reading it, I like couldn't put it down. Maggie, every day, part of her routine is getting cookies from the chef in the kitchen. And at some point, Someone, as a metaphor for life, yells eat the cookies because life is too

Christopher Bollen: 41:24

right

Jason Blitman: 41:24

and I think I need to get a tattoo that just says eat the cookies.

Christopher Bollen: 41:29

Yes. I feel like that was like, that was like one of the fun things about or not fun things. That was like one of the like realizations about COVID I'm from the Midwest originally, and we're such like savers of things. And I think about this I once went to Italy, and I went to Favignana, which is in Sicily, and it has the best tuna fish. I love tuna fish. And I bought I literally bought like a hundred euro can of tuna, and then, which I took home, but it was like never the right time to eat it, because I was like, I can't eat this for lunch. It's and then a year went by, two years went by, and then finally, I had a special occasion, and then

Jason Blitman: 42:08

Of course.

Christopher Bollen: 42:09

I was looking for it in the cabinet, and that boyfriend who's now an ex, I was like, where's my tuna from Fabignani? He's oh, I threw it away, it expired. And I was just like, this is a lesson that like you need to eat the fucking tuna as soon as you buy It was this is a yeah, there were a lot of cases just like this that explained I want my tuna No, I but you know I really do think like you should just eat you should eat the tuna as soon as you buy it

Jason Blitman: 42:36

tuna. Eat

Christopher Bollen: 42:37

eat the cookies. So it's against my the my nature as an ohioan, but it's a good lesson\

Jason Blitman: 42:46

there's a restaurant in Brooklyn. Aggie's Counter. A G I, apostrophe, S, Counter. It's this young gay chef open this restaurant and I texted friends of mine who live in Brooklyn and said, do you know who this guy is? And they said, Oh my God, yes, we love his restaurant. He has the best tuna fish sandwich.

Christopher Bollen: 43:08

you kidding me? I am

Jason Blitman: 43:10

that I'll send it to you. I'll send you the name.

Christopher Bollen: 43:13

Eggie's Corner? I'm so excited! Counter. Eggie's Counter.

Jason Blitman: 43:19

A. G. I.

Christopher Bollen: 43:20

I had this idea speaking of jobs, I wanted to open Tuna Fish and Egg Salad? Tuna Fish and Egg Salad Place. Where it's always It's four or five different tuna fishes, and one, two, or two different egg salads, and then there'll be a special chicken salad every

Jason Blitman: 43:36

You're such an Upper West Sider.

Christopher Bollen: 43:38

It's

Jason Blitman: 43:39

that would thrive on the Upper West

Christopher Bollen: 43:40

I, but I, this is why I'm an old woman at heart, an 81 year old woman who's a metal, because I love egg salad and tuna salad.

Jason Blitman: 43:49

So do I.

Christopher Bollen: 43:50

so good.

Jason Blitman: 43:51

Maybe that's like a thing.

Christopher Bollen: 43:52

is a thing.

Jason Blitman: 43:53

gay men, are we also like 80 year old

Christopher Bollen: 43:55

I think so. I think that there's a little, maybe it's like a Golden Girls situation going on, right? And a bit of Zabar's mixed in.

Jason Blitman: 44:04

And a bit of

Christopher Bollen: 44:05

Although I don't think, I don't think their tuna salad is that good, to be honest. I'm disappointed.

Jason Blitman: 44:10

that I've ever had it. There's a place, has a tuna fish that isn't made with mayonnaise, and it's like a little bit of oil, and it's some vegetables, and it's like their healthy tuna, but it's so good. And it's like not, I know I'll need to remember where it

Christopher Bollen: 44:26

My god, what are you waiting for? And he did i'm now i'm really hungry I love tuna fish. I love tuna salad so much.

Jason Blitman: 44:34

Where's your, what's your go to?

Christopher Bollen: 44:36

there used to be a Sushi restaurant that had the best this is sounds crazy But a tuna salad sushi and but it was like that, like the japanese mayonnaise. It's so

Jason Blitman: 44:47

Huh

Christopher Bollen: 44:48

And they made it with japanese mayonnaise. So it was like a little sweet, but it was so good that they closed which broke my heart the worst tuna salad is like that market that is all over New York. It's like Maria's tuna. She like, she's the one who, they like have a cookbook by Maria. No, it's like a more

Jason Blitman: 45:09

all over New York.

Christopher Bollen: 45:09

A New York supermarket chain, but it's like Maria's, like the, it's like the mother, who like, it's like Maria's tuna fish salad don't. It's disgusting. I don't know Maria, but I'm sure I'll get a letter for that, but

Jason Blitman: 45:22

Maybe the next act is Tuna

Christopher Bollen: 45:27

right? What if I write a tuna book and then that's the tenth one and then I die? Choking. But no.

Jason Blitman: 45:34

wait, she didn't say that you were gonna die. She just said something would happen.

Christopher Bollen: 45:37

me and I, cause I asked her and I said does that mean I'm going to die? She's no, not necessarily. Maybe you'll start writing for film or something else will come along. It's not necessarily death as your tarot card will, if you get a death card, they'll try to play it as something positive.

Jason Blitman: 45:55

I'm not a hypochondriac, but I'm definitely an overthinker. And if the death card gets played, I'm gonna be like

Christopher Bollen: 46:01

that's when you're like, I

Jason Blitman: 46:02

send me to the CAT scan right

Christopher Bollen: 46:04

That's when you're like, I don't believe this. It has to be positive or else.

Jason Blitman: 46:07

don't know. Something so specific in the negative, I feel like I might. We'll find out. I'll keep you posted.

Christopher Bollen: 46:15

me. Let me know. I have good, you have good vibes. I think you have a long, healthy, positive future.

Jason Blitman: 46:23

You don't know anything about me yet.

Christopher Bollen: 46:25

I don't.

Jason Blitman: 46:26

have gout, I have tendinitis in my knee, I have, I get kidney stones, I'm like a mess. Hopefully that's just the worst of

Christopher Bollen: 46:34

What if she says that? What if she guesses all of that?

Jason Blitman: 46:37

This would not surprise me.

Christopher Bollen: 46:38

My friend has an opening downtown. Remember those?

Jason Blitman: 46:42

you're so glamorous.

Christopher Bollen: 46:43

no. Although

Jason Blitman: 46:44

You're gonna, are you gonna, are you gonna bring your little Americano?

Christopher Bollen: 46:48

no, I drank it all. Although

Jason Blitman: 46:49

I'm here for the opening!

Christopher Bollen: 46:50

can chug I can chug like seven of these. I'm, I have no end of the coffee I

Jason Blitman: 46:55

I would be awake all night long.

Christopher Bollen: 46:57

I, coffee has no, I can drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep. It's Something's wrong with me.

Jason Blitman: 47:03

I'm jealous. I love the taste of it in the morning. Dang. So I wish I could drink it at night, but I can't. Chris, this is so great. Thank you for joining

Christopher Bollen: 47:12

much. It's such a, it's been so fun to talk to you.

Jason Blitman: 47:15

I can't wait for everyone to read Havoc and then wreak havoc. And then run amok.

Christopher Bollen: 47:21

ha.

Jason Blitman: 47:22

We need to do some research on this. There's like a whole, there's an article

Christopher Bollen: 47:25

Yeah, there is. There's going to be another one. We have three. And sense of Let's think of a fourth sometime. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 47:32

Wreak havoc. Yeah. How you doing today? Perfect. I'm

Simon Doonan: 47:36

I am super groovy. I'm just putting on my preferred glasses these are vintage. They're from this place in the East Village called Fabulous Fannies. Don't you love it?

Jason Blitman: 47:48

Yes, my husband gets all of his glasses there.

Simon Doonan: 47:51

These I bought these years ago, and I keep thinking they're going to break at some point, but they just don't. How many pairs does your husband have?

Jason Blitman: 48:00

From fannies maybe five or so. They're all great.

Simon Doonan: 48:04

Yeah, it's so fun to go in there, it's orgasmic.

Jason Blitman: 48:07

I find it a little bit overwhelming, but that's just me.

Simon Doonan: 48:12

Yeah I went in, I saw these, and I like a 70s vibe,

Jason Blitman: 48:16

Yeah.

Simon Doonan: 48:17

and I like the straight across top, and I've got a big head, so I can handle like a bigger Johnny has a tiny head, it's like a peanut. So he has to wear preppy, acceptable glasses, and bloody, blood, but

Jason Blitman: 48:31

But you're matched

Simon Doonan: 48:31

have it.

Jason Blitman: 48:33

head sized, I assume.

Simon Doonan: 48:34

Yeah, I guess so. He's got to be used to me for having it. He calls me the boulder, and I call him the peanut sometimes, because his head is literally like a coconut.

Jason Blitman: 48:46

Something Jonathan and I were bonding over it pisses me off because my husband, Franklin, can do anything and is like basically a savant at it overnight. And I'm just like, screw you! You can't have everything. It's not fair. And Jonathan was saying you are very similar in that way, where you can just pick something up and you're great at it. Okay.

Simon Doonan: 49:08

in a narrow band, I'm completely useless at anything technological. But other things I can pick up Oh, I know what I'm good at, because years of being a window dresser, I'm wildly practical. you have to have your little toolbox, I can do anything. And I'm not intimidated by things like, you know, hanging a chandelier from the ceiling. I can figure it out, just stuff like that. Because I lived in the three dimensional world for so many decades.

Jason Blitman: 49:35

for sure. I worked in non profit theater for so long, I'm very good at making something out of nothing. You have two dollars and a shoebox? We could put on a show. I got you. So I

Simon Doonan: 49:45

I love that. I'm very that way, weirdly, because, Barney has, struggled financially at various points during the years I worked there. And then at Maxfield before that, I, had a very limited budget. So I'm good at making something out of nothing. I think things are usually better that way. When the budget's too big, people just fuck it all up, you know?

Jason Blitman: 50:04

Because if you have the money, then you're going to spend it. And if you don't have it, then you're going to be creative.

Simon Doonan: 50:09

Yeah. Paper mache is always better than fiberglass. You know what I mean?

Jason Blitman: 50:14

Unless it needs to last a very long time, then it could be a different thing. Though you probably have a trick of making papier mâché last forever.

Simon Doonan: 50:21

No, I don't think it's so ephemeral what I did. I, we used to just take things and stuff them in the trash, take one window out because it was all ephemeral. And so there was no sense of preservation.

Jason Blitman: 50:33

This is a great segue into talking about books in general. Is that, do you think that's what led you to writing? Because the work sort of disappeared, and then the books got to live on.

Simon Doonan: 50:45

Not really. I think there was more I, in the nineties, a lot of people were saying to me, you should do a book of your windows. Then a publisher, a really great publisher Callaway. They've done amazing, they were the first people to do really splendid coffee table books in the 70s, 80s. And he approached me and I thought, great. So I got all my pictures together and he said, now write an introduction. Because it was just going to be a picture book. And I wrote this introduction. He said, you're a hilarious, great writer. You need to make, we'll make the whole thing text driven. You have to write a lot more. And over the next year or two. I would get up at five o'clock in the morning, write for two hours, and then go do my job at Barney's, so I was for something in me, I thought, Oh my God, I should really throw everything into this. And then when that book came out, it did quite well. And the editor of the New York Observer called me up and said, we want you to write a style column for us.

Jason Blitman: 51:51

Mhm.

Simon Doonan: 51:52

I did that for 10 years. And I, for five of those years, I was writing a column. every week. Something in me was like, throw yourself into this because not many people get to have a second career. It'll slip through your fingers if you don't grab it, and I think I did. Like now I look back and I think, wow, 10 books, hundreds of newspaper columns, slate. I worked, did slate columns for five years.

Jason Blitman: 52:20

if I counted correctly, the one that you just had come out is your 12th book.

Simon Doonan: 52:23

yeah, I'm not good at counting, but like I think it, it might

Jason Blitman: 52:29

I'm gonna pat you on the back since 12 books? That is nothing. That's not, no slouch.

Simon Doonan: 52:35

but it's, they're not war and peace, the, my books are fun, pop cultural and I'm happy, I'm very happy with them that way. They're fun to write. I have friends who, more serious writers, and they literally, go through hell, whereas I'm going, Woo, typing and I'm having a good time. So I've always loved writing. I never thought, how do I motivate myself to do this? I've always thought, God, I'm the luckiest window dresser in the whole world to have concocted this, So I need to throw myself into it.

Jason Blitman: 53:10

Yeah. I realize I've not actually introduced you to our listeners. If you have not pieced it together by now, our fantastic, delightful guest gay reader today you will know him from his windows at Barney's, from his hilarious columns, from being the most delightfully effervescent judge on making it, Simon Doonan.

Simon Doonan: 53:36

Yay.

Jason Blitman: 53:37

That's your official introduction. Now back to regularly scheduled programming. Okay. So that's how you got into writing. Have you always been a reader?

Simon Doonan: 53:45

Yes, but I was a patchy reader. When I, in my twenties, I was much too busy. getting done up, going to glam rock things and festivals. I was very into pop culture and going out to the Blitz in London. And I was very social and groovy and happening. And then I moved to LA and I was just, doing windows and having fun. And, I was in part of that new romantic movement in LA. I'm in that Kim Carnes video. Betty Davis eyes, dancing around in some new romantic

Jason Blitman: 54:21

are?

Simon Doonan: 54:23

Yeah, because I was just incredibly trendy. When

Jason Blitman: 54:28

I couldn't help it. I was so trendy. They wanted me everywhere.

Simon Doonan: 54:34

Oh, exactly. Glam rock, Bowie, I was way into that. Anything like that, I was just magnetized towards it. And a lot of those things, those street style, street cult were working class things. You didn't have to be fancy or rich to participate. In fact, it was the other way around. Think about George and Marilyn and all those people. Philip Salon, the great Gays of the New Romantic Movement. They they were just working class people. And glam rock was like that too. You didn't have, if anything very fancy people weren't even aware it was going on, so, I felt, I felt like every door was open, as a gay growing up in the 1950s, 60s, I just thought the key is to get where things are happening, and that's on you, you just have to get on the trailways bus and get your ass there and and you'll find kindred spirits. And I always had an optimism about that and never failed me. I moved to LA when I was 25. I had a great time. It was. Until the AIDS epidemic hit, it was pretty incredible. And then yeah, I moved to New York in the mid 80s when, fashion, art, graffiti, everything was colliding, and it was a great time to be there, notwithstanding the AIDS epidemic, which was the backdrop for all the

Jason Blitman: 56:01

Yeah.

Simon Doonan: 56:02

that was going on.

Jason Blitman: 56:04

So you were living this fabulous, glamorous life, and then when, you said you were a bit of a patchwork reader, so you were, when you were glamorous, you were probably reading headlines, and you were standing in a corner reading The Room, but when did you start picking up books?

Simon Doonan: 56:21

I actually, at school, I was a very diligent reader. I read everything. And I was actually the only kid in my school to get an A in English A Level. They were smart kids there. I just was way into it. And then I went to college read. But I got back into it, I would say I read sporadically, like if something caught my fancy, I'd read some piece of trash. I read the Not Trash, something like The Naked Civil Servant came out, of course I read that. Just standard gay fare, but I was, it was only as I got older and then when I met Jonathan, who's an absolutely insane reader. And then once I start, he would he still does pass his books on to me, says to me, read this. And then when I started writing books and doing my column research became a huge part of my life. Even this camp that I just did, the Camp 100, it's 100 essays, and every one had to be researched, which, obviously, I'm not a credentialed academic, so I don't have to, I don't have to be agonized about

Jason Blitman: 57:29

You got an A in high school English, so. You're very qualified.

Simon Doonan: 57:35

Yes. And but I love, a lot of my reading now is about research for various projects and things lead to other things, like researching my camp book. I realized I didn't know anything about Lord Byron, right? The poet. So I just saw a new biography come out, so I've just read it, I've just finished it. God, what a freak! So this book I just read

Jason Blitman: 57:59

what's like a

Simon Doonan: 57:59

Byron, A Life in Letters. By andrew Stauffer. And fun fact about Byron, okay, totally trisexual, pansexual, multisexual had a withered a clubfoot was bulimic. Was completely self obsessed and dandified. Had an affair with his sister. He basically invented vampires. He traveled a lot. And he found out that in the, Eastern Europe, there was this whole mythology around vampires. But it, they were always rustic. Or agrarian characters. And he basically invented the idea of the suave debonair vampire. He he was with Mary Shelley for a whole summer when she conceived Frankenstein. It goes on and on. He had these insane affairs, Lady Caroline Lamb. He's just really the most unhinged person I've read about. And keep in mind, before that, I just read Pete Burns autobiography, Freak Unique. So I'm very high low, in case you're thinking all this pretentious banging on about Byron. I'm very high low. So I went from Pete Burns to Byron.

Jason Blitman: 59:22

funny is you talk about Lord Byron and being like, fancy, but we're sitting here also talking about vampires. So it's not, there is some, it's camp. So tell me more about Camp

Simon Doonan: 59:33

god.

Jason Blitman: 59:33

Yeah.

Simon Doonan: 59:39

on camp to various publishers. Since the Met Gala had their camp, I thought I should do a book about this. And eventually this publisher, White Lion, they picked it up, and they actually said it shouldn't be an A to Z. I wanted to do an A to Z. They said it should be, they came up with the idea of the camp 100 which in retrospect I think was a good choice. And so I just had to think of 100 camp people, but in that process, thinking of it, like if you and I decided now we were going to do that, it would take forever because everybody disagrees with everybody. So I was thinking why does people disagree about what's camp and what's not? And I think it's because It's such a slippery, wacky topic that, and some people are looking at it, and what they really mean is camp, capital C, camp, and others are thinking campy. So for example Westons, John Wayne, Westons, they are camp, capital C. They never intended them to be, have the fun made of them, they weren't doing it for laughs, it was deadly serious. And Susan Sontag said, camp dethrones the serious. So you look at John Wayne Westerns, and you think, oh, these are really camp. But you're dethroning the serious, like these people taking themselves very seriously. And then Blazing Saddles, is campy, because it's very knowing, it's completely intentional, whereas camp, with a capital C, is unintentional.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:22

Is the most succinct way I've ever heard someone describe camp. I think so many people have a hard time articulating what it means to them and it's so much more about a feeling or a vibe or an experience but I think that makes total sense and I think I will look at it very differently forever now.

Simon Doonan: 1:01:40

like the Queen of England, Camp, capital C, she wasn't waking up every morning and thinking, boy am I a camp icon or what? She was just like, where's my crown, where's my purple? I'm like Sector Orb,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:55

Could you imagine waking up in the morning and saying, where's my crown? But if you did it, that would be campy.

Simon Doonan: 1:02:01

and I did. I dressed up as the Queen a lot when I lived in L. A. In fact, I used to get paid to do it and show up at opening nightclubs and things, and get at least a bag full of drink ti my white purse was full of drink tickets.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:16

But the purse is small, so it wasn't that many drink tickets.

Simon Doonan: 1:02:20

so that was Camp E. Yeah, and then there's the way the Brits use camp is basically, oh, he's a bit camp, but people used to say, oh, David Bowie he's camp, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just meant he's effeminate, androgynous so there's almost three meanings. I think, I'm not dogmatic about it, I just think, Some people just think of it very simply. They just think, Oh, is that gay? Is that Nelly? That's camp fine. I'm not going to argue with them. But if you're going to write a book about it, you have to trying to nail it down a bit. And so that was where I ended up. But it's funny because Susan Sontag, she actually thought she was rigorous. Everything had to be camp. Campy was something she saw as being an inferior, corrosive, contemptible thing. Whereas I don't see it that way at all. I think Campy is great. It's communicative. It's all the most brilliant entertainers at Campy. Cher, Bette Midler, they, it's all intentional. They know exactly what they're doing. They're very smart. RuPaul, drag. They, they all know exactly what they're doing. So I would say they are campy Martha Stewart, in her later career, has learned to treat herself like a camp icon. Fully. Initially she wasn't that way. We launched her wedding book in the 80s at Barneys. And she was very serious, straightforward person. But over the years she's learned to, she was very serious when she needed to be, and now she's more playful with her image, which is great.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:57

That's very fascinating for people to become self aware enough to go from camp to campy. I think that's almost where they've reached sort of icon status.

Simon Doonan: 1:04:08

Yeah, at least in your eyes and my eyes, definitely.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:12

true.

Simon Doonan: 1:04:13

Other people could see it as the beginning of the end of their career, but, you

Jason Blitman: 1:04:18

Gays reading

Simon Doonan: 1:04:19

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:20

Am keeping you for so long, so thank you for your time,

Simon Doonan: 1:04:23

Oh, I love chatting.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:24

Oh thank you. There was something that you and Jonathan said on someone else's podcast. Let's her name. Some people might've heard of her. It was Katie Couric. You talked about finding the white space and filling it in terms of the niche careers and such that the two of you are a part of. And I found that to be very impactful. And I'm, A, curious if that's something that you still believe. And B, the two of you also were, the white spaces were quite niche. How did you know that those white spaces were there for you? Yeah.

Simon Doonan: 1:05:15

Everyone was going for something or other and I, I just started doing windows and I thought I can do this. It's not that hard. It's like a glorified version of tidying up. I thought this is achievable for me. And then I started to get in a groove with it. And I thought, yeah, I could be the one to do quirky unconventional. So it spoke to me. And meanwhile I'm sure that the world's full of people that thought it was a very de classe, cheesy profession, I remember a friend of mine was in group therapy and he, he wasn't in display, but his new boyfriend was, so he told the group, I'm dating this guy, and he's really great. And everyone was like, Oh my God, how fabulous, what does he do for a living? And he said, Oh, he's a window dresser. And they all went, eh, like that was on a par with being a fluffer in a strip club or something, like day class say. And so I always thought that was hilarious. And my favorite people in the whole world are the people I learned in the world of, got to know over the years, many years, in the world of winter dressing. They were all great. In London, in LA, and in New York, the window dressing community, the people who work in the studio, they may not be full time employees, all display people are just great. They're funny, they're unconventional, they don't take themselves too seriously, and many girls, it's 50 50 girls, boys, so it's not just all men with wrist pin cushions, it's unglue. So yeah that was my white space, I think. And Johnny and I talked, I've talked about this to our friend Liz Lang, who made her name as a maternity designer. And a lot of fashion, wannabe fashion designers, they would think, I want to be Karl Lagerfeld. I don't want to be a maternity wear designer. So Liz saw there was a huge opportunity there because there wasn't the groovy maternity wear that all her and all her friends were craving. So she made it at a very successful company. So that's the kind of thing. And obviously Johnny being, making a, becoming a pottery mogul. is hilarious and great and a visionary, I always think of Donna Karan because she saw in the 80s that women didn't have the clothes that made them feel glamorous to go to work. Work wear for women was incredibly castrated and not glamorous at all and she fixed that and I think she has a whole legions of loyal people because she's She saw a white space there. I want to give women a way to be glamorous in the workplace and feminine and still powerful, and she figured it out. She just caused a revolution.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:09

Yeah.

Simon Doonan: 1:08:10

I think I think there's some interesting things happening in publishing. Yes, young people are looking at their phones and then engaged with social media and TikTok or gaming, they're not reading. Okay. So how come someone like Richard Osman has become hugely successful? Because he knows that All people read. So I think like you could almost do a spin off podcast like all queens are reading And go for it because that's what he just targeted. The alter cacos and it was like a dream. I read all his books. They're extremely funny. I know, I get all the jokes. Pete, it's a neglecting audience. Same with clothes. Like, anyway I think you're onto something, and you've got, you're nimble.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:58

Oh, I appreciate

Simon Doonan: 1:08:59

So,

Jason Blitman: 1:09:00

I'm obsessed with their fabulous Fanny's glasses. Thank you so much for joining me today. This has been a pleasure.

Simon Doonan: 1:09:08

I had a lovely time. You're so fun to chat with, and I wish you all the best with your ventures. I'm, plural there.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:16

I appreciate that. You are also very fun to chat with. Simon, fantastic guest gay reader. Everyone go buy Simon Doonan's books. He has 12 of them, even though he didn't even realize that his newest book, The Camp 100, is his 12th. And wonderful. Have a great rest of your day.

Yeti Stereo Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: 1:09:33

Christopher Simon Doonan. Thank you both so much for being here. Everyone make sure to check out havoc out now, wherever you get your books. And I'll see you on Thursday for a very special episode of gays reading. Bye.