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Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading.

Yeti Stereo Microphone: 0:33

Hello, and welcome to gaze reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. On today's episode, we have author Weike Wang here at talking to us about her new book rental house. and our guest gay reader is author Joseph Lezza. I'm so excited for them to be on the show. Both of their bios are in the show notes and you can watch this episode as well over on our YouTube channel. Uh, make sure to check out the YouTube channel that you could like and subscribe. you could also like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you can leave us a five-star review. If you're in the mood to leave us a five star review, if you're loving what you're hearing, who Lee is, feel free to leave us a five star review. It means so much. And helps other folks find gaze reading as well. I wanted to shout out some books today, but there really aren't that many books that are getting released, uh, because it's, you know, just about the end of the year. but next week I talked to an incredible author about their book and I also got some holiday gift ideas from them that are book related. And when I tell you, you do not want to miss. Next week's episode of gays reading. If there was never an episode to mess, it is next week's. I'm so excited. I'm freaking out and I'm, and I can't wait to share the episode with you. speaking of holiday gift ideas, a great holiday gift idea. is a subscription to her aardvark book club. And as most of you probably know, I'm partnering with them to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the United States can join today and enter the code gaze reading at checkout and get their first book for only$4 plus free shipping. Uh, that's aardvark book club. You can go to aardvark book, club.com. Use the code gaze reading got about$4. Uh, and that's all I got for right now. Welcome to gays reading Waikiki Wong

Jason Blitman: 2:26

I am so excited to have you. Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Weike Wang: 2:31

Yay, happy to be here.

Jason Blitman: 2:33

First and foremost the cover alone of Rental House,

Weike Wang: 2:36

a good cover, I love the cover.

Jason Blitman: 2:38

it is such a great cover. And I was telling everyone at Riverhead that I want this, which is the little cute box that it comes in. I want it as a poster because it says funny and delightful with a burning couch in the middle of it. And I, it's like, if there's something that I want to describe my life,

Weike Wang: 2:57

That's it.

Jason Blitman: 2:58

it is me. This is it. Funny and delightful, but also there's a burning couch in the middle of the room.

Weike Wang: 3:03

perfect. And that's really this book, right? It's like the funny despair and family dramas that happen. on family vacations.

Jason Blitman: 3:11

Indeed. Okay. So for those who have not yet read the book, what would you say your elevator pitch is For Rental house

Weike Wang: 3:20

looking at a marriage over, I think, 10 years through the lens of two different family vacations. So the first one is with the in laws, with the parents. The second one is sort of their older. So with friends and um, themselves,

Jason Blitman: 3:35

Do you have in-laws?

Weike Wang: 3:36

yes. Do you?

Jason Blitman: 3:39

I do. I do. There's a, I, it's like literally within the first couple of pages where the question of whose parents are more difficult comes up. Has that been, I won't, you don't need to out anyone, you don't need to start an argument, but was that like a big conversation in your relationship as you were writing this book?

Weike Wang: 3:59

I think that's still a big relationship, and everybody's, you know, everybody's relationship. This idea that everything Buddy's family is difficult, right? But because you grew up with your own you're like used to it, right? You're like used to it.

Jason Blitman: 4:16

To that

Weike Wang: 4:16

you're used to that flavor. So it's really hard to get used to another flavor. And so I don't think any family is easier or more difficult. Like every, I've realized that it's pretty much all the same,

Jason Blitman: 4:27

yeah, no, that's so true. There are some of the like kooky in law related questions that come up, like a mother in law or father in law might ask about their child's partner. It's very, it's a lot of prying. It's a lot of, okay what do they do? What's their religion? What's their family like? What's their background? What do you think would be important to you? What, as an in law, what would Waiki ask?

Weike Wang: 4:54

I think the, I at this point just care about the person making the other person happy. If you love someone, you want that person to be happy.

Jason Blitman: 5:02

You say that

Weike Wang: 5:03

I know. And then the possessiveness

Jason Blitman: 5:05

then you're like, what's their credit score?

Weike Wang: 5:08

You want them to make good decisions. I mean, Hopefully if you raise the kids, okay, they know how to make those good decisions themselves. You hope for it. You hope for that. Who knows? Who knows?

Jason Blitman: 5:19

did any of those come up with your families?

Weike Wang: 5:22

Oh, like

Jason Blitman: 5:23

Was there like, I, yeah.

Weike Wang: 5:25

Oh, yeah, there's always questions. Maybe not the credit score stuff, but is he a good driver? Is he safe? I think for girls, you care a lot about safety. You care about this person being safe. Will he take care of you? So that kind of thing. And I think on my end, it was, I think, it's. Every parent has like a different standard. It's like impossible to make all of them happy. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:49

It just makes me laugh. I was like chuckling and cringing simultaneously whilst reading. Okay, I think I know the answer to this just from reading the book, but are you a fan, are you a fan of House Hunters?

Weike Wang: 6:02

I love house hunters. I love house hunters. Yeah. House hunters international. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:07

huh.

Weike Wang: 6:08

Yeah. Real estate shows.

Jason Blitman: 6:10

Yeah, why? Why are we obsessed with them?

Weike Wang: 6:14

Because I live in New York and I can't afford that kind of place, So i'm living vicariously

Jason Blitman: 6:19

I know, but so why do you do that to yourself? Because I was the same way.

Weike Wang: 6:22

like torture. I don't

Jason Blitman: 6:24

I know, it's totally torture.

Weike Wang: 6:26

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:27

I will say, when you look at real estate in New York, and you look at real estate in other cities that one might want to live in, like LA or Southern California or Northern California, or those are the only places people want to live.

Weike Wang: 6:43

Yep. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 6:44

What you get for the price, it's crazy. Like a 2 million place in New York City is a

Weike Wang: 6:50

I know. I know. It's it's a million a bedroom, right? That's what they're saying. It's a

Jason Blitman: 6:55

yes, but 2 million in California goes a very long way.

Weike Wang: 7:00

There's

Jason Blitman: 7:00

I couldn't believe it.

Weike Wang: 7:01

There's a lot of land. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:03

I always found it so funny watching House Hunters International because the culture is so different in every single country, in every city, and you're like, wait, that's the shower? Like, Wait, I'm supposed, how am I supposed to make breakfast? What's, it's so fascinating to me. Was there a place where you're like, oh, I would live there?

Weike Wang: 7:24

Oh. Portugal. I think I wanna go to Portugal. Porto Lisbon. Beautiful. And like very affordable.

Jason Blitman: 7:31

But there's a, that like, super famous gorgeous bookstore in Porto. Do you know what I'm

Weike Wang: 7:36

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:38

like, buy tickets to get entry into the gorgeous bookstore. I'm, I can't wait.

Weike Wang: 7:43

That's your next trip? Yep.

Jason Blitman: 7:45

Yes. That's all I have to say on the matter. Do you know other languages? Yeah.

Weike Wang: 7:52

It helps. I think knowing a different language kind of helps you think about English a little bit in terms of how, languages are similar, how languages inform, I don't know, cognition how people think humor, things like that.

Jason Blitman: 8:04

There's a conversation in the book about like different subsets of Asian American and Asian American culture, and there's the very specific Chinese American versus Taiwanese American I found it very interesting comparing it to The LGBTQIA plus community, because there's a lot of like, just because you're in that quote unquote community doesn't mean that you support one another, it doesn't mean that you can relate to one another, you might have superiority feelings toward another in group thing. Not that we need to solve the world problems right now, because I want to say like, how do we combat that? And neither one of us can have an answer. But in your experience, is there something that you have found to be valuable?

Weike Wang: 8:57

I think you have to respect other people's opinions, you might not agree with them, but it's hard. And a lot of this book is this couple kind of dealing with different ideologies within their families, within themselves just even with Carew and that conversation just about identity, like Chinese American, Asian American, Taiwanese American this need to like divide, divide, divide. When ideally there's not even that many Asian American is not like this. Majority that there's this like desire to divide it out. And that, I don't know that it helps the common good, like a purely utilitarian argument. I'm not sure it's helping, overall trajectory. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 9:40

I think it's just the parallel for queer communities is unfortunately so similar and very, and frustrating and sad to me. To not, because again, it's, we're talking about a fraction of the population and come on y'all.

Weike Wang: 9:52

yep, I

Jason Blitman: 9:53

Let's we're all in this together. There, there are a lot of like rhetorical questions in the book. Like what happens when one person's freedom infringes on another? Do you think any of those actually have answers?

Weike Wang: 10:10

No, and I don't think people think about them, but I guess sometimes for those kinds of questions, it's whose voice is louder, right? Who has more power, right? Not everyone is created equal. In an ideal world, you wouldn't want your freedom to impinge on but if you have more resources, maybe There are sacrifices, it's one of these things where, yeah, it's an unsolvable question, but it's a question that I think people should think about, right? Freedom is important, but then also it's like this consideration, right? For another person's feelings, for, general harmony, right?

Jason Blitman: 10:44

That sounds

Weike Wang: 10:45

I know not going to happen, not going to happen.

Jason Blitman: 10:49

I know. Okay, total sidebar. Oysters come up in the book.

Weike Wang: 10:54

Oh, yeah. I actually like oysters, but I'm not so obsessed with them. Like I can't, my friend can eat like a hundred oysters in one sitting. I can't do that. That's just way too many oysters for me. But I love this concept of oysters being this like very luxurious. Yeah. I don't know, food and like being the symbol of being bougie, having an oyster, right? And the mother character is kind of like, I'm not really that impressed.

Jason Blitman: 11:22

That was among the plot lines that hit very close to home for me.

Weike Wang: 11:27

Ha.

Jason Blitman: 11:27

for so many reasons. I talk about this a lot, but it, the book in particular made me think a lot about the idea of family versus relative. And I'm a firm believer that it is sometimes an unpopular opinion that relative does not always mean family. Don't have to be related to your family.

Weike Wang: 11:51

Like the chosen family, in some ways, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:54

And it's, I think we use the word chosen family, but I don't think we have to put that identifier on it. Our family could be our family, whether we're blood related or not, and, I think a lot about, would this person be my family if I wasn't related to them? Or would, yeah, I don't know. How, do you have a group of humans in your life that you consider family who are not your relatives?

Weike Wang: 12:17

My husband, you know, uh, family, um. I guess these people that I'm hanging out with from the residency. But we like, I've only known them for like, four months.

Jason Blitman: 12:28

But I think that's pretty magical.

Weike Wang: 12:30

Yeah, and we're like, we still hang out, we talk. Sometimes you find your people. But with those kinds of things, there's like a phase. They go in and out, right? I hope to keep these people around. But there were periods in my life where I had a really intense bond with maybe, a group of people because we were going through the same thing, right? College is, school my MFA my MFA cohort and I were very tight during the MFA and for the years after but, sometimes things change, right? I think all family, especially the ones that, you're not You have to put in work. You have to make time to see each other. You can't take it for granted. And you have to appreciate how lucky you are to have found this person.

Jason Blitman: 13:13

think that there's this element of when you do find your people, even if you don't stay connected in the way that you are at the beginning, You don't necessarily feel an obligation to stay connected to them forever, but you can stay connected to them forever. And in turn that almost makes the bond stronger, right? Like the people that you said you've been through your MFA with, there isn't an obligation to be there for them. But if someone reaches out to you, you have you have a history, you have a bond, you've been through the trenches together. You're not like blood related. So I do think that for me, that's very interesting. Even the friends that you maybe cycle through. I don't know, making friends as an adult is very difficult.

Weike Wang: 13:57

difficult. I wrote a whole essay about this. I was like, how hard it is to make friends as an adult, and how often times you find yourself losing friends, losing more friends than gaining them, because you're not a kid anymore. So you're not like getting 30 new classmates every year, right? You're not being driven to like play dates, you don't have soccer practice. And

Jason Blitman: 14:16

And you're tired.

Weike Wang: 14:17

And you spend all day with like co workers or like your job people and then you have to go hang out with your, home people and then you have to go hang out with your friend people, you know.

Jason Blitman: 14:27

How do you make friends as an adult? What did that, where did that essay, where is that essay? I'll link it in the show notes.

Weike Wang: 14:32

it's called The Problem with Friends. I published it this summer in the New Yorker. And it was a weekend essay. And. One of the ways I made friends was through through my dog Dog Park. We have a lot of good friends from cause we, everyone owns dogs, so it's nice to dog sit, right? And I think it's how people with kids make friends, because the kids hang out with each other, right? So our dogs hang out with each other. Other

Jason Blitman: 14:57

How long from knowing the dog's name to knowing the human's name

Weike Wang: 15:02

I think it really depends. If the dogs get along, then like maybe like a couple weeks, like the dogs get along and you're on the same like walking schedule,

Jason Blitman: 15:12

you're like, oh hey Rufus. And then weeks go by and you're like, hey Rufus's dad, what's your name?

Weike Wang: 15:21

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 15:22

Like that was us in New York for so long. We would be like, oh, it's your dog friend. And then so much time would go by, and it would be, like, awkward to be like we say hi every

Weike Wang: 15:30

Who is

Jason Blitman: 15:30

what's your

Weike Wang: 15:31

What's your name? Especially if you're on the same like walking schedule. You know what I mean?

Jason Blitman: 15:35

so Funny. I know my dog is like, under my

Weike Wang: 15:38

What kind of dog do you have?

Jason Blitman: 15:39

She's a ducks and chihuahua mix. She's a pain in the butt, but we love her. What about you?

Weike Wang: 15:46

I have a cockapoo, so I have a Cocker Spaniel poodle mix. Very exciting. Um, He's very smart. A little too smart.

Jason Blitman: 15:55

Have you ever made friends on vacation?

Weike Wang: 15:59

Yeah. Sometimes especially if you go to all inclusive resorts, you see a lot of people going to the same places. Yeah. the same bed and breakfast. So sometimes in the fall we go upstate and then there are these like bed and breakfasts and they have like fire pits. And sometimes you're like hanging out with someone else who lives in the end.

Jason Blitman: 16:18

Huh.

Weike Wang: 16:18

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:19

Have you stayed in touch?

Weike Wang: 16:20

We try, but it's hard, so I think it's just like these temporary friends that you pass like the weekend or the week with.

Jason Blitman: 16:27

So in the book, there's, they become friends with, or they meet the people who are staying in the cabin next to them. And when my husband and I were in Barcelona, we were in like the suburbs of Barcelona at a vineyard doing a wine tasting. And when we were at the train station going back to the city, We overheard people speaking in English trying to figure out what track they had to be on. And we were also trying to figure out what track we had to be on. And next thing we knew, we struck up a conversation with this little family and spent the train ride back with them. It was an older couple and their younger kids, basically younger kids, I say in quotation marks, they're in their early 40s late 30s, early 40s. And we all hung out that night and we've been in touch ever since. And we've like visited each other and it's been really cool. But yeah, we met this couple on vacation and we've become good friends.

Weike Wang: 17:27

amazing. Wow.

Jason Blitman: 17:30

It was very, I think, an empowering experience to realize you don't know where you're going to find your people.

Weike Wang: 17:37

And I think traveling together is a great example of if you can travel well together, you're probably pretty good at a lot of things together because travel is just one of these like Things that it can really test a friendship. Like I've traveled well with friends. I've traveled poorly with friends, so Meeting someone on vacation and getting along on vacation is actually a real testament to

Jason Blitman: 18:01

I know. Meanwhile, my husband is like, they're gonna murder us. And I was like let's just go to a neutral place, it's fine. And they didn't. We've lived to tell the tale!

Weike Wang: 18:12

Yup.

Jason Blitman: 18:13

Where would you go? Rental house takes place over two different vacations. Where would your vacations be? Where would your vacations be?

Weike Wang: 18:19

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 18:20

a silly question, but I feel like this is what people are going to ask you on this book

Weike Wang: 18:24

Where is my dream vacation? I do like mountains. I'm like much more of a mountain person. So any kind of mountain hikes, right? I'm not a big beach person. So that's that any kind of like really warm weather beachy vacations would be out. I love trains. I love taking a vacation on a train. Like my dream would be like someday going on the Orient Express or something.

Jason Blitman: 18:45

Long do you think you'd be able to do that for, emotionally?

Weike Wang: 18:47

being on a train, I think probably the four days, right? Because they don't allow it for much longer. But yeah like

Jason Blitman: 18:55

Four days on a train feels like a long time.

Weike Wang: 18:58

true.

Jason Blitman: 18:59

Have you ever done anything like that?

Weike Wang: 19:01

No, but I love trains. I don't like planes, but I've always loved trains. Don't like cars,

Jason Blitman: 19:06

How did you find your love of trains?

Weike Wang: 19:07

Because I love that you, I don't get car sick. So one of the things with cars is I get very nauseous. And with planes, I'm just so anxious all the time about whether it's on time, what are we doing? You're also, you're pretty much just like a steel thing going through the air, right? And,

Jason Blitman: 19:23

which like, on one hand is magical, and on the other

Weike Wang: 19:25

It's fucking scary, yeah. But trains for some reason I can still read. I can work. I can look at the scenery. There's just something a little bit calming about it. Although, the Amtrak is never on time for me, so sometimes I'm just like, and the subway is sometimes not very reliable.

Jason Blitman: 19:40

Is there a train trip in particular that you've taken that you were like, wow, this was really special?

Weike Wang: 19:44

When I visit China, sometimes it's, it was. It was amazing that one time, I went from Shanghai to Beijing in four hours on the high speed rail. It was just an amazing experience of just going so far in four hours. It was very quiet and I just, I was amazed, that. Compared to the Amtrak, how fast some of these like trains are that are like these bullet trains and how it closes the gap. Like you could go to Beijing in a day and come back when that was probably unheard of. Um, like 20 years ago.

Jason Blitman: 20:15

We did Rome to Florence

Weike Wang: 20:17

Oh beautiful,

Jason Blitman: 20:18

Beautiful. Yeah, I love a

Weike Wang: 20:20

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:21

Okay, I dig it. I don't know that it's the sleeping on the train that I'm like a little

Weike Wang: 20:25

yeah, that's true. So you gotta get the suite. That's why I'm never gonna be able to afford this vacation. You gotta get the suite on the Orient Express.

Jason Blitman: 20:34

That's hilarious. No, I would do it like a Almost like a train cruise, where you like train to a city, you spend the night in the city, and then you train to another city, and you spend the night in the city. I don't know that I want to sleep on the moving train, but okay, we'll look into it. The Phantom Tollbooth comes up a bunch in the book.

Weike Wang: 20:52

mhm.

Jason Blitman: 20:53

Does that have special meaning to you?

Weike Wang: 20:55

No, I was just thinking about childhood books that I read and that was one. Um, kind of Like nerdy books, and I sometimes just give those things to characters. Yeah, it's a book I remember so it stays

Jason Blitman: 21:08

never read it.

Weike Wang: 21:09

Yeah, it's weird. I read it again, like last year or something just to refresh myself. And I was like, this is such a weird book. Why did I like it?

Jason Blitman: 21:18

Why did you like it? Why do you think you

Weike Wang: 21:20

I think it was strange. Just like the title phantom told I was like, what does that even mean? Whereas for a lot of children's books, it was like Winnie the Pooh or something like that. Where it was like easy And it was like fantasy, adventure, and just like this idea of this dog with a clock. I don't know. I just found it so strange. That and like something like a wrinkle in time. Those are the books I was reading. I don't read fantasy, I don't write fantasy. But it, I think it probably just spurred my imagination. Even if I'm writing literary fiction, you have to have an imagination and create characters that are just different from you. But also feel like real characters.

Jason Blitman: 21:58

I was never a big reader as a kid. I say all the time that I basically became a reader about five years ago.

Weike Wang: 22:05

During the pandemic.

Jason Blitman: 22:06

Just before the pandemic, and now I host a book podcast and read way too much. But yeah, so I've in turn missed some of those more literary classics as a young person, and so I need to make a backlist of those books in Wrinkle in Time,

Weike Wang: 22:21

The giver. The giver,

Jason Blitman: 22:23

Oh, The Giver I read. Loved. Loved The Giver.

Weike Wang: 22:27

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:28

I'm like, either The Giver author, Lois Lowry, is coming out with a new book?

Weike Wang: 22:34

Oh, really?

Jason Blitman: 22:36

I think? I think? Something like that. The guy that wrote Frindle may be coming out with a new book? Someone who wrote a book that was very classic is coming out with something new. That's all I remember. I need to look into made you want to become a writer then?

Weike Wang: 22:51

Oh, that's a good question. I think it was an accident. I mean, I'm always telling my students if you like something else, do that instead of writing.

Jason Blitman: 23:01

Background is in theater, and I say the same thing for anyone who'd want to go into theater. I'm just like, y'all do

Weike Wang: 23:07

Do something different like you have to really love it. You have to love the process of it Like I always tell people I love writing. I don't really like being a writer Like I wish the writer aspect was a little bit more anonymous Because I actually like the process of putting words together putting sentences together And the writer as a person I'm less interested in so I think I sometimes discourage students You're just like want this writerly life, like they, write books on, at a coffee shop. They're so inspired to do and the first thing that they write is brilliant. And it wins a bunch of awards like that's not real life,

Jason Blitman: 23:45

yeah, but it's a nice fantasy to

Weike Wang: 23:48

It is a nice fantasy to have.

Jason Blitman: 23:50

So what is the real writerly life for you?

Weike Wang: 23:52

I try to write in the mornings, but sometimes I can't. I do a lot of writing doesn't pay the bills. So I do a lot of tutoring, teaching. I adjunct at three different places. I'm an MFA advisor. So you make, you make it work. You pay for You pay for your time. You try to get your time back. I'm always like clawing back time to write. Just because I live in an expensive city, and it's a great place to be a writer, but it's it's hard to sustain. So my life, my daily life is different depending on what meetings I have. But I think, the trick I tell students is you have to be comfortable writing at any time anywhere. If you're really precious about writing, like you need to light that candle. You need to put some sage out, right? You need to you, it needs to be, this time, it needs to be absolutely quiet. That's never gonna work. Like you're

Jason Blitman: 24:42

You're like, if you cannot write a full novel on your notes app on your phone, you are not a writer.

Weike Wang: 24:47

And sometimes I'm like writing while I'm teaching, cause I'm like thinking about it. And I just I need to get this line down, so you have to be comfortable doing it at all times.

Jason Blitman: 24:58

is so funny. Do you,

Weike Wang: 25:01

It's you're obsessed with the idea and the story.

Jason Blitman: 25:03

yeah. Is that true? Is there something specific that you could point to where you're like, Oh, I came up with this idea when I was in the middle of doing this thing.

Weike Wang: 25:12

With rental house, like I was, it was during the pandemic or a year after we still weren't really traveling. And I just remember being. On the sidewalk walking my dog and just having this thoughts like, I wish I was in Cape Cod because I've never been to Cape Cod. Like I've been to Cape Cod, but I've never stayed there. And I was like, I wish I was in Cape Cod, just like a cabin, a house, not this congestion, not New York, and then I was like, Oh, why don't I just write about a couple of goes to Cape Cod? So you're constantly thinking about problems. And once you get an idea in your head, it's like a disease. It doesn't leave until you write it out. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 25:51

Yeah. I'm just imagining you're like, teaching a class and in the middle of the class, you like write down some brilliant line and you're like, It was this line came from.

Weike Wang: 26:02

Sometimes my students write good sentences and I'm like, huh, that, that kind of inspires me to think about something else, or we talk and, Like yesterday I was doing a workshop with my kids and there was this one sentence about the mother's anger being a passenger in the car. And we were all like, that's such a great image, and I was like, yeah, that is such a great image, anger being a person. And I think I write rage and loneliness into my characters a lot. So I was just thinking about what, how I could use that later or how I could think about that, but I think all my students, they just inspire me. And I'm always thinking about writing when I'm reading and writing.

Jason Blitman: 26:36

Why do you think you write rage and loneliness into your characters a lot?

Weike Wang: 26:40

Well, I think that's so much of the female experience sometimes, the immigrant experience, the POC experience of suppressing a lot of your emotions to get the work done. And loneliness was a big part of my life. And, the question of friends has always been a hard question for me because I didn't have siblings. And so it was very, I had a very lonely childhood. And I think that kind of just makes you a little bit sad and angry about it. Yeah, there's just some things that I think are surprised for some of these characters. And I think I just give them a little bit of that unpredictability, which is also good for fiction. It's good to have unpredictable fiction characters.

Jason Blitman: 27:19

You said you were a little sad and angry. Do you think writing about the rage and loneliness helped you work through that?

Weike Wang: 27:25

100%. I think sometimes, you know, Virginia Woolf said it too. It's like once she wrote about her mother stopped bothering her. Or this idea of writing out the grief, writing out the pain, writing out the thoughts, right? And it clears your head a little bit.

Jason Blitman: 27:38

do you think you've written through it enough to like, come out an optimist for book number eight or something?

Weike Wang: 27:45

I

Jason Blitman: 27:45

Or do you think that, does that never change?

Weike Wang: 27:47

I don't know. I don't know. I hope it changes. But it's actually incredibly hard to write a happy story. I tell my students this and they, they realize it too. It's because you don't buy it. The reader doesn't buy it. Like at the end of like Everyone Lives Happily Ever After, the reader just doesn't believe it, so maybe I think a little bit of optimism. But one of the things about being a fiction writer is you have to make the characters suffer. The characters never suffer. What's the story?

Jason Blitman: 28:15

That's not real life.

Weike Wang: 28:16

Yeah, that's not real life.

Jason Blitman: 28:18

So the question of being an optimist or pessimist comes up in the book. Are you how would you define yourself?

Weike Wang: 28:24

like on the surface, I think I can seem very optimistic and effervescent, but I think deep down I am a pessimist. Like I'm a cynic, because it's just, sometimes things just don't work out.

Jason Blitman: 28:37

Yeah, I'm like an optimist, realist, rising.

Weike Wang: 28:41

ha, love that,

Jason Blitman: 28:43

Do you know what I mean? I like to think glass half full, I like to assume people's best intentions, but at the same time I also know life is real and like shit happenS. Okay, something that comes up in the book in that Karou has a very strong feeling about is

Weike Wang: 29:05

oh yeah, ha, yep.

Jason Blitman: 29:08

For the people who might not know, can you define a

Weike Wang: 29:11

Yeah, it's double income, no kids. And it's, I started hearing this acronym only like a few years ago. Because I think someone called me that. And I was like, what is that? Because someone asked me what I was going to be for Halloween. And I was like, I don't really do Halloween anymore. And they're like, are you going to be a dink? And I was like, what? What did you just call me? I thought, I just like misheard. And so it's, I think it's used in a lot of other places, just, I guess not in America. We don't really use that acronym,

Jason Blitman: 29:41

oh, that's so funny. No, my husband and I talk all the time about being dinks and living the dink life.

Weike Wang: 29:47

life.

Jason Blitman: 29:48

Is that, it almost comes across as a bad thing in the book. Do you think, is it bad to you?

Weike Wang: 29:54

No, I don't think so. I think more and more people are leading that lifestyle. It's just it goes against mainstream. It goes against what I think Karou's parents wanted for her. The desire to expand the family, there's like a lot riding on her shoulders, right. And, and her uterus, like this idea of creating the lineage, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:13

Yeah. And it's so interesting cause like there is that element and in the book, there's the conversation of having kids being the socially responsible thing to do, I say in quotation marks. And yet you look around at society and you're like, is it the

Weike Wang: 30:28

Is it the socially responsible thing

Jason Blitman: 30:30

It actually feels perhaps irresponsible, but that's a whole different conversation.

Weike Wang: 30:35

Have to really believe in the future to have kids, and I'm not sure. I'm totally like invested.

Jason Blitman: 30:42

I know, as we just

Weike Wang: 30:43

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:43

And it's fun here I am, Mr. Glass Half Full, but I'm like, but I'm also realist, and I'm like, the world is crumbling, I should not put children on it like this. I know it's horrifying, and yet but here we are smiling

Weike Wang: 30:57

I know.

Jason Blitman: 30:59

Oh

Weike Wang: 30:59

We look good for the

Jason Blitman: 31:00

Um, I know. Eek! Big smile! Big smile! The world is fine. Everything's totally fine. I just moderated a panel at the Texas Book Festival basically about the end of the world with Athena Aktipis and her book A Field Guide to Survive the Apocalypse, and Amanda Montel's book, The Age of Magical

Weike Wang: 31:22

Oh, nice, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 31:24

and so we, it was basically like How do we do it? How do we survive the end of the world? And it was enlightening.

Weike Wang: 31:30

I think we don't, right?

Jason Blitman: 31:32

I think we don't. The world is always ending and one day we will just be part of it. There's a quote in the book that Comes across, it like is serious and it like is talking about a serious topic, but the way it's phrased, I like have to unpack it for a sec. So the quote is, Who would want to be a house husband hold down the fort while the woman went out and won bread? As in, is the bread winner? But the idea of, and won bread, I was like, I want to win bread. Laughter

Weike Wang: 32:07

Like you just go and throw darts and then get like a

Jason Blitman: 32:09

I know, I'm like, how exa could you imagine,

Weike Wang: 32:13

would be amazing. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:14

at the casino, it's what did you at the county fair, if it wasn't a giant stuffed animal, I would do the ring toss for a big loaf of bread.

Weike Wang: 32:24

Totally.

Jason Blitman: 32:25

Do you love bread?

Weike Wang: 32:26

I love carbs in the form of rice and spaghetti and pasta, but not not like bread.

Jason Blitman: 32:33

So you would not want to win Brad.

Weike Wang: 32:37

If I had to go out to work and I got paid in bread, I think I would be upset.

Jason Blitman: 32:41

Did not anticipate having this conversation today. That's hilarious. I feel like I could talk about for me the relationship that gets worked through over the course of these 10 years. How long have you been with your husband?

Weike Wang: 32:58

We've been married for six, but we've been together for eight before that. So I've known him for 14 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:06

Are there pieces of your relationship in this book?

Weike Wang: 33:09

the going on vacation, having parents, like the universal things navigating differences,

Jason Blitman: 33:15

yeah.

Weike Wang: 33:15

I think that was the universal core. But I think I was just thinking about, I'm at the point where a lot of my friends are like 10 years into a relationship, right? And things really change because it's not the love, lust, whatever thing at the beginning. It's like you're in a partnership now. You've committed like you've you're you're not you're no one's leaving this house, even if it's burning down. So you're in that like team state, right? And you're playing the game together.

Jason Blitman: 33:41

You were together for so long before getting married. Did you feel like anything changed for you once you got

Weike Wang: 33:46

not really. I guess we've filed our taxes together now. That's

Jason Blitman: 33:49

It's interesting for me, I think it, it like solidified the team,

Weike Wang: 33:54

Yes. That's true. You have a piece of paper. That's yes.

Jason Blitman: 33:58

yeah, it like is, it's like less easy for him to run away now.

Weike Wang: 34:02

it's true. True. I got him. I have the social security number.

Jason Blitman: 34:08

something that the book does, I think so beautifully is really showcase what two people can get through together and the balance of the partnership. Yeah. What are you looking forward to? What's on the tour? What's happening?

Weike Wang: 34:22

The book launches on the last week of classes, so I'm excited to end on a launch day and then I'm going to Boston. But I'm also just interested in, I'm just happy to get this book out. With every book, it's like a baby, right? You push the baby out and then you just want them to succeed. They have legs. They need to go do, they need to go do their own thing. Ha!

Jason Blitman: 34:43

How's Joan doing? Is she okay?

Weike Wang: 34:44

I think she's great. She's working. She's happy.

Jason Blitman: 34:49

that's the sequel. Joan is great.

Weike Wang: 34:51

great. Working and happy. Two, two, two words.

Jason Blitman: 34:55

From Joan is okay to Joan is great. First book is chemistry. So I feel there's a lot of like science, very smart things integrated through all of your books. Where did that come from?

Weike Wang: 35:07

I did chemistry as my major in college. And then I did a doctorate in like public health. So I did all of that.

Jason Blitman: 35:15

So you're just infusing your

Weike Wang: 35:16

Yeah. Yeah. And I think a little bit of science literacy is always helpful.

Jason Blitman: 35:20

Yeah, 100%. My husband his bachelor's degree is in chemistry.

Weike Wang: 35:25

Oh, okay.

Jason Blitman: 35:25

now he works in tech. But I think, it's do you find, I don't want to say transferable skills, but like for him, so much of it is about he learned how to solve problems from being a

Weike Wang: 35:37

Yeah, and I think seeing a project through, problem solving a lot of figuring, research, a lot of it is no one is going to sit there and tell you this is what you need to do, right? There's no protocol. So you sometimes have to figure out, figure it out. And that's a lot of writing for me is that problem solving.

Jason Blitman: 35:53

Yeah. That's really fun. Let's go solve all the

Weike Wang: 35:56

I know.

Jason Blitman: 35:57

I am so excited for you and for Rental House.

Weike Wang: 36:01

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 36:03

Yay, wakey wong, everyone go buy your copy right now because it is available. And let it stress you out as much as it stressed me

Weike Wang: 36:11

no, it's read about another dysfunctional family. That's not yours. know?

Jason Blitman: 36:15

That actually is the reality of it all. I was like, Oh, I'm not alone. So let it stress you out while feeling like you're in a safe space

Weike Wang: 36:26

Totally.

Jason Blitman: 36:27

and know that everyone is in it together. Everyone's house is burning.

Weike Wang: 36:31

Yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 36:32

Don't burn the house down. And fingers crossed that for the rest of your marriage, things go well with the in laws, etc. Sending good vibes, I'm always here for

Weike Wang: 36:40

Yeah, I'm going to be a rising optimist too. Just watch next

Jason Blitman: 36:43

Yes. Yes. I love. Is there anything that people can look forward to coming next from you? I know this baby hasn't even been

Weike Wang: 36:50

I am writing like a story about a friendship. So I hope, I'm exploring friendships. I'm so fascinated by that topic.

Jason Blitman: 36:58

Fantastic. Love. Everyone go check out. all of Waiki's stories you write everywhere. So we'll link to your

Weike Wang: 37:05

yes.

Jason Blitman: 37:06

go read all of her things and go check out Rental House.

Weike Wang: 37:10

Thank you so much. Thank you.

37:12

Joseph, I'm so happy to have you as my guest gay reader today. What am I even doing here? Standing in the stead where once stood Lea DeLaria and Roxanne Gay and R. Eric Thomas and I fully am a Muppet as compared to those three and the others who you've had, I didn't mean, I like, hope that didn't come across in any sort of way. No, I'm proud to be a Muppet. No cheeses for us Mises, man. I'm here for it. I also it's just funny, I can't see all of your hair in the zoom frame that you're in. It just goes on. Which feels that's, I like, I don't know where it ends. What are you reading? I am actually between books. I just finished and I have them here because I'm going to show them off as if I'm Vanna White. I have them here. I just finished Matt Singer's Opposable Thumbs. The How Siskel and Ebert Changed Movies Forever. I am, I'm a non fiction creature. I love non fiction. I love fiction too. But I don't know. It's something about reading, about Like actual people gives me like a bit of a thrill. I don't know if it's just like a voyeuristic thing or whatever, but I feel like I'm getting like a look at a little piece of history, like a secret little piece of history. And I know, being that this is gays reading, it is not, it is certainly not a queer book. However, it doesn't have to be a queer book. You're a gay reader. I feel like I could argue that Siskel and Ebert are quite possibly the two cattiest Heterosexual men who ever lived. they were movie reviewers. They were like, they were frenemies. They were constantly at each other and that they actually did start as, um, rivals at two two rival newspapers in Chicago. And then they became, Cisco and he brought up the movies on PBS. And then it got syndicated and they were. They were always at each other. There was always arguing about the merits of the film. And but they also became friends. Like they became these like enemies turned friends. And, it was that thing that you could look to in the nineties and to be fair I didn't quite often watch Siskel and Ebert at the movies because I was a little bit too young for that. But they were ubiquitous enough for me to know who they were. And it was like that thing that you waited to hear about on whatever, Entertainment Tonight or whatever it was. Like, what did Siskel and Ebert think of this movie? And that is going to determine whether or not I see it. It's a great story, honestly. Loved the book. Loved learning about these two men. And I'm also obviously a big movie fan, so it's a cross of several things that I really enjoy plus a little, dose of 90s nostalgia, and who doesn't love that? But, recently finished that one, and am in the midst of previous Gaze Reading guest, Santiago José Sánchez's Hombrecito is just fantastic. Like just the prose is amazing. The story in and of itself is obviously so incredibly compelling, but there's one thing that I love about this book that It's like a small piece of it, but you know how, like in queer communities, we talk, like the concept of the found family is discussed a lot. What I love about what Santiago explores in this book is found spaces and and it's so intrinsic to the queer experience, how so much of queer love has to happen in these found spaces because, it often happens in private. You have to especially. still today, but, years prior, like it was this thing that like you, maybe you couldn't have somebody at home or, you couldn't have somebody wherever you lived and they couldn't have you over. And you've had to find this place where you could be together and explore like whatever that interaction was. And, it could have been anywhere. There was this urgency, this desperation to it. And unfortunately, I think it also through this cloak of like salaciousness over the idea of queer love, but, I, I love that because I think any queer person growing up knows what it's like to have to find that place to sneak away and be with that person and figure out who you are. Is there, what is a found space for you? A found space for me. Oh man, I should have anticipated that question. Maybe an abandoned Marriott conference room. We just learned so much about you. You do what you have to do, okay? Totally fair. Totally fair. I really like nonfiction. As I've gotten older and as I think I've leveled out my fiction versus nonfiction, I really love non fiction audiobooks. because It's so fun hearing someone tell their own story. Their own story. I'm listening right now to the Ted Lasso oral history book. Get out. And it's really fun. And it's just, like, how, The series Ted Lasso came to be and it's fun to listen to someone tell you that journey. Yeah, absolutely. I feel exactly the same way. I tried in the past, one or two fiction audio books, and I did not last very long because I, for whatever reason, I felt like fiction requires more, Not that nonfiction doesn't require more of my attention, but for whatever reason, the way I read, I need to like, sit with the fiction book, spend time with the characters, and get to know them. Very often, not always, but very often, if I'm reading a nonfiction book, I already have a sense of who this person is. That's probably why I'm reading it. And it does feel, especially if they narrate it themselves, it does feel like they are having a conversation with you. They're telling you about their life. Yeah. Kathy Griffin's book is actually such a fun listen it doesn't even feel like you're listening to an audiobook. It really just feels like you're listening to whatever, nine hours of her doing a special. Yeah, that's how I feel about Jennifer Lewis's audiobooks. Highly recommend if you have not listened. She's just You're gathered around the fire telling a story and you're hearing It's amazing! Her whole life story and it's so fun and delightful. Yeah, I think you're right in that there already is some context. Even if you don't really know the story of Siskel and Ebert, you like, understand conceptually and culturally who they are and what they did. And so now you just have something filling in gaps. Whereas in fiction, you like, If you miss a plot twist because you Sneezed while you were listening. Like then it's gone. It's gone. You have to follow that thread back and wait, what, who, because, like when you're listening to audio books, you're very often walking, you're driving, like your attention is pulled somewhere else. So especially if you're driving and you go into that sort of like driving trance where like suddenly a half an hour is gone. You don't even remember anything you've heard because you've just been like mesmerized by like the passing. Road signs or whatever. And then suddenly you find yourself having to backtrack several chapters because you literally have no recollection of what you just heard. No, exactly. Second ago, I was being so rude, and while you were talking, I was like, turning around, looking at all of the books around me, because not only are you a guess gay reader, but you are also a guess gay writer. Joseph, tell us about your book. Yeah, so my book is called I'm Never Fine, Scenes and Spasms on Loss, and it chronicles my time as a caregiver for a parent who with a terminal illness and their eventual passing. The book takes place in Three different parts pre sort of prognosis pre diagnosis treatment, and passing, and then the aftermath and the reckoning that one does with identity, and family, and faith, and even sexuality and I wrote it largely because in those years after I lost my father I had this idea that grief was gonna happen. In this particular sort of way, people are very familiar with the stages of grief and it's going to be whatever, denial, bargaining, depression, eventual acceptance, and you teach yourself that oh, that's what it's going to look like. It's going to happen in a very yeah. matter of fact way, bim bam boom, and eventually you'll get over it. And for me, I found very quickly that that was not the case at all. The prevailing sentiment that I had after I lost my father was one of anger. Not of myself, but just this feeling that, my, I felt like my dad got a raw deal, and I was just mad at the world, and then my anger just doubled down on itself, because Not only was I angry about what happened, I was angry because I couldn't move past it, and I wasn't, I convinced myself I wasn't even grieving the right way, because, it was supposed to happen this way, I was supposed to eventually get over it, and I learned very quickly that, the stages, if you can forgive me, are there. BS, like grief doesn't look that way. It's not going to be organized. It's not going to be neat. It's going to be messy. And the minute you disabuse yourself of that expectation is when you can finally start to deal. And so I thought years after when I finally start to put. pen to paper. I was like what's the book that I would have wanted to read? Because of course I read during that period of time books like, I read Wild, I read Blue Nights by Joan Didion, I read even, even the Ypres Loves of the World, and there are these beautiful stories, but some of them tend to be a little bit overly irreverent. Some of, it, it portrays grief as like this, this beautifully tragic journey. And there is a lot of beauty in it, there's a lot of tragedy in it, but there's also, just a hell of a lot of mistakes. There's a lot of ugly stuff, there's a lot of embarrassing stuff, and there's even a lot of funny stuff. And I was like, I want to capture it all. I want to put it all on paper. I'm not going to give anybody any sort of formula. I'm not going to pretend that there is one way to get through this, because if there is any thesis statement to the book, it's that there is no wrong way or one way to grieve. And so I was like, This is what I want to write. I want to write my experience because I want to give people, if there is somebody out there who is in a similar situation as I was, feeling lost, feeling like they're somehow failing at this grieving thing, rather than give them or pretend to have some answer let me just show them everything. The good, the bad, and the ugly so that by reading it at the very least, maybe they'll feel a little bit validated and less alone. Because this is coming out around the holidays. Is there something that you could share that helps lift you up in this time of year? Or conversely, When you need to give yourself space and time to not be okay, how you I don't want to say rationalize that, but how you give yourself permission. And I don't mean to put you on the spot, if you don't feel comfortable talking about that, we certainly don't have to. No, not at all. I it's so individual obviously depends on the person but for me like I take a great amount of comfort in the holidays If only because of the connections that it does have to my father My dad was you know, a very jolly festive guy loved decorating like I remember You know, as a kid being outside in the cold New Jersey winter, helping him string these lights on the house, on this massive pine tree that we had outside, and he was a figure of celebration, his birthday is New Year's Eve everything in December is very much, was very dad centric in a way, and he just taught me to embrace this time of year and to just appreciate your family and, the things that you have. I guess I could have found it all very painful after he passed, but it's incredibly cliche to say, but it's just like one of those things where I came to the determination he wasn't this kind of person. Like he certainly would take no pleasure in seeing his family in pain, around this time of year. And I celebrate for myself. I celebrate for him. I, I take comfort and joy in, the people that I have around me, not just nearby, but, far away. I used to live in Florida after college for several years. I lived in Florida and worked at Disney World, of all places, and met a great many people from not only across the country, but across the world. And eventually we all went home or went elsewhere. And now I've got this great network of friends that's sprinkled all over the place. And it's so silly, but one of the things that I really enjoy doing this time of year is like sending Christmas cards. I send far too many. Way more than I get in return, but that's not the reason why I do it I just love sending these little messages out that people receive, that they maybe don't expect, that maybe just brings a little bit of joy to somebody's day, just reminds them hey, I'm thinking about you you're never far from my mind. my heart, what have you, and I'm grateful for you no matter where you are. When it comes to giving yourself permission to feel pain or to feel grief that, again, is a very individual process. I would just encourage anybody to When they are in those positions, to try to figure out what it is that does bring them a little bit of comfort and warmth. And even if you have to feel those feelings at the same time, try to fill your day, or at least part of your day, with something that does bring you a little bit of light. Because that is the only thing that I think is going to carry you through to the next one. Thank you for sharing all of that. For sure. Okay. As my guest gay reader, I have to know, is there anything that you are. Reading. Is there anything you're complaining about these days? What's happening? This is your grievances. It's the most trivial thing in the world, but now that I finally have a platform to air this grievance, I'm going to, I'm just going to put it out there. Is, as you said, the holiday season. And, one thing that I tend to enjoy more than I do at any other part of the year is just The bevy of food programming that we get at this time of year, whether it's the Great British Bake Off or, Holiday Baking Championship or whatever, just I love seeing people running around the kitchen, going crazy, trying to make a croquembouche. But here's my read, man. Okay. I have a problem. I've, I think I've tweeted or. Skeeted or whatever this a thousand times. But I'm gonna say it here. People need to learn, desperately need to learn, how to pronounce the word mascarpone. Because, and this is a, it is a, I've noticed it is an American problem. It is not a European problem. The Europeans, no matter what, they can say, Mascarpone. It's very easy. It's three syllables. Mascarpone. Americans, for some reason, have this tendency to say Marscapone. And it is like nails on a chalkboard for me. Because it's it's not a dialect thing. It's not an accent thing. You are taking an R and you're moving it up like five places. It shouldn't be there. Okay. It just shouldn't be there. Also, you might hear it, Marscarpone. You know what, the Italians will pronounce the E. So if we want to be correct, it's mascarpone. If you want to say a mascarpone, go ahead. But if you are saying marscapone or marscapone, we're going to have words because just put the R back where it belongs. Yes. Yes. I will often get Jason Biltman, which again is moving the L. It's just, it is Blitman, just move it, just put it back where it's supposed to be. But you know what though if somebody's misspelling or mispronouncing your name, they're probably very likely meeting you for the first time. These are seasoned bakers who are not kneading this cheese for the first time. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And very often. You are pulling it out of a, of a an industrial kitchen refrigerator and there's a label on it. Just sound it out, guys. Sound it out. Yes. And let's shout out to our family with dyslexia. We're not talking to you. It's okay. It is totally fine. It's okay. It's okay. Listen, you get it. You, I, you're a cook yourself. I know that you have your qualms about peeling garlic. We all have our individual. I know it's very true. It's very true that, I will say my frustration with these cooking shows that, that are constantly on TV these days is that I don't get to taste the food. Yes, exactly. The thing that I love about most of my gripes is that if I let people in my immediate in my immediate orbit know about them, they just take a lot of pleasure in just saying it more often, just to just to, to put me on edge. I will Like I'll walk through a like a quote unquote Italian bakery like with a friend and I'll see those rainbow cookies and I'll immediately be like, that's not a rainbow. There's only three colors in it. That is not a rainbow. They're not called rainbow cookies. They're called Venetian glass cookies. Get it right people. And then my friend will be like, I'm going to go buy a rainbow cookie. I love rainbow cookies. That's so funny. Joseph, thank you for being my guest gay reader today. Oh my gosh, thank you for having me, this was great. Happy Holidays. You as well, and to everyone. And to everyone. As Tiny Tim said. God bless us everyone. Bless us everyone.

Yeti Stereo Microphone: 54:31

Thank you wakey. Thank you, Joseph. Everyone have a wonderful rest of your day. Stay safe, happy holiday season. And as I said at the beginning next week, I'm so excited, kind of wait. Uh, but this coming Thursday, we have a what's the T episode. So make sure to check that out. Uh, and I'll see you very soon. I'll be in your ears very soon. Oh, goodness. It's been a long day by.