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Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Hello, and welcome to gays reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And on today's episode, I have the wonderful Nnedi Okorafor talking to me about her new book, death of the author and my guest gay reader. Today is the fab UK drag queen Holly stars. Who's talking to me about her new book murder in the dressing room Nnedi. And I talk about, uh, being open to reading as many genres and styles of books as possible. And so I thought it was really fun to pair these two. Together on this episode. both of their bio's could be found in the show notes. Also in the show notes links to all the things you can watch this conversation over on YouTube. Holly is in full drag and that is a fun enough reason alone to watch over there. You can subscribe to the YouTube channel as well, and like, and subscribe to gays reading, wherever you get your podcasts. That way you will be the first to know when a new episode drops. And I have been known to release a random episode. Like I just released an episode where I was in conversation with Logan Lockner. Owner who, is someone who needed to evacuate during the Los Angeles fires. And he talks to me about the books that he chose to bring with him. You can find that. Over on gays reading.com or wherever you get your podcasts. if you have been listening, then you know that I'm partnering with aardvark book club. If you've not been listening well, I am partnering with aardvark. Bookclub. And so if you use the code gays, reading a checkout, you get your first book for only$4 plus free shipping. Here's the thing. Today's episode Nnedi Okorafor death of the author. If you go and look at the ARD rec book club, Instagram, they have a hint for one of their February books. If you look at it. And then look at the cover art for that of the author, and then look at the hint and then look at the cover art for death of the author. I think you might know where you want to use your code. You can get your copy of the book for only$4. Intent. So partnering with Buck lab, you can go to their website, aardvark book clubs.com. Use the code gays, reading the checkout again, you got the book for$4 plus free. Shipping such a good deal. Uh, and you do not want to miss out on this book and aardvark is terrific and they're so much fun to follow on social media as well. You could also follow gays reading on Instagram at gays reading. And, uh, those are all of the things that please enjoy my conversation with nitty. Cora for, and then Holly stars.

Jason Blitman: 3:07

Nnedi, I'm so excited to have you on Gay's Reading. I just It's such a special book, Nnedi. That's all I gotta say.

Nnedi Okorafor: 3:15

Oh, you've got to the end.

Jason Blitman: 3:19

Yeah, girl! I read from I read to the end! Come on!

Nnedi Okorafor: 3:24

Every time I talk to anyone who's read the whole thing, I just get, I get this, my cheeks. Ah, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 3:33

We are, we're not even two minutes into the conversation!

Nnedi Okorafor: 3:37

it's all good. It's all good. This is a hard one. This This book is a lot.

Jason Blitman: 3:42

Of course alright, let's save the a lot for the end so we don't so it's, it'll be okay. Okay, let's start with the softball.

Nnedi Okorafor: 3:49

Okay. Okay. Good. Good. Good.

Jason Blitman: 3:54

Per your Instagram.

Nnedi Okorafor: 3:58

Oh, you've seen that? I could have done more that day. I could have done more. I got into my head. I got to the point where I'm like in my head, I was like, Oh my God, I'm doing a lot right now. I could have done three more. I'm I'm still mad at myself for that. But yeah, I've always been able to do pull ups. I've Since I was in third grade.

Jason Blitman: 4:17

And in this very moment is when I realized, so not only did I reach the end of the book, I read the acknowledgements. Thank you very much. And, And I, and you say that you're worried, your daughter says, don't worry, people won't think you're Zayloo. And hey, upper body strain, maybe you are the same. I didn't even realize.

Nnedi Okorafor: 4:39

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:41

Anyway, I was very impressed. Color me impressed. I was so impressed. I could not do that many pull ups. And I also heard on someone else's podcast that you are a candy person.

Nnedi Okorafor: 4:50

Oh, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:51

me more. What is your fave? Now,

Nnedi Okorafor: 4:56

is, it just does, it does the things, in The Matrix when she eats that, I think it was steak or something, she eats something And you see all the things happening. Yeah, that's me with chocolate. That's

Jason Blitman: 5:09

when you say chocolate, are you like, does it matter what it is? Can it be Hershey? Are you like, I want the 83 percent dark chocolate from the artisanal chocolate place?

Nnedi Okorafor: 5:20

no, I'll eat Hershey. I will eat what it's just chocolate in general. And I just love It's just not the cheap chocolate, like the super cheap where it's

Jason Blitman: 5:31

Where it tastes like a little, it's it's a little waxy

Nnedi Okorafor: 5:33

Yeah, no like, you know, love Lindor and just just regular chocolate. It just, it's

Jason Blitman: 5:39

Ooh, Lindor. Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 5:42

it's a beautiful thing.

Jason Blitman: 5:43

And if you have one of those truffles, and you let it, and you let it sit in your mouth long enough, and it like explodes and then melts in.

Nnedi Okorafor: 5:51

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 5:52

But that's, you have to have good patience.

Nnedi Okorafor: 5:54

that. Yeah I'll leave it out for a little bit so it's warm, and then I'll eat it in this, and I have to sit, and don't talk to me when I've eaten one. Do not talk to me. Let me just sit and let it happen. Yeah, so chocolate is my, that is my weakness.

Jason Blitman: 6:09

Okay. When I think candy, I think of like Skittles, which I'm very not, that is not me.

Nnedi Okorafor: 6:14

I'll eat Skittles. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 6:18

Nnedi, one of the first things I said to you, this is a safe space. I do not judge that. That is okay.

Nnedi Okorafor: 6:24

Red Skittles. Red Skittles are just yum. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:28

Oh my god, I'm obsessed.

Nnedi Okorafor: 6:30

I, sweets, I like, I do like sweets, but chocolate is my main thing, but I, I'll eat nerds, I'll eat Skittles, I'll eat um,

Jason Blitman: 6:38

I don't think I've talked about nerds in ten years.

Nnedi Okorafor: 6:42

Yeah, nerds and dweebs too, they have something called dweebs, I

Jason Blitman: 6:45

What is a dweeb?

Nnedi Okorafor: 6:46

they're like soft nerds, I feel like there's something addictive in them because at I was just like, oh, these are just delicious. They're so bad for you. Oh yeah, dweebs are good.

Jason Blitman: 6:56

If you think about that in the context of A middle school?

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:01

Yeah. I was like,

Jason Blitman: 7:02

oh, that's a soft nerd. That's a dweeb. What?

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:05

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that was,

Jason Blitman: 7:08

yeah, no, that's really funny. Okay, this is all very interesting. And I feel like I learned so much about you reading Death of the Author. But now I feel like we've taken it to a whole new level.

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:20

All the additional information.

Jason Blitman: 7:22

Yes! Okay, death of the author. Congratulations, it just came out.

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:30

It hasn't come out yet. It comes out in,

Jason Blitman: 7:31

It

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:32

oh yeah, it just came out. This came out. I'm ecstatic. I'm super excited. Yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 7:38

Yes okay, so tell us, what is your elevator pitch for the book? And now Listen, I think it could be as simple as this. Which you probably can't

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:50

Yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 7:51

I think it could be that

Nnedi Okorafor: 7:52

Is storytelling. Yeah. The future of storytelling. Yeah. I'm going to try to, I'm going to try to do it. This is going to be bad because I'm not used to doing it yet. It's going to be bad, but okay, it's a hard one, but like Death of the Author is one, it's my most personal novel to date. It is easily the most personal, so there's that. But it's part Nigerian American family saga. Our main character is Zelu, who is she's a failed professor who becomes a writer. So there's that. And then it's also a book about post human robots. Yes. So that's my elevator pitch.

Jason Blitman: 8:31

That's all you need. And honestly, I have to say, I didn't know anything else going in. That's all I knew was the future of storytelling is here. Because I don't like reading too much about a book because the blurbs these days give away so

Nnedi Okorafor: 8:43

Yes, they do. They do. And and also the blurbs can point you in a certain direction, they, and you can't like not once you hear that thing, you're already down that road. Whereas if you just go and I, and that's how I love reading as well. Just going in and just seeing where it takes, letting the book, letting the story take me where it's going to take me, and not letting others got, I don't like being guided. So it's yeah, I don't read blurbs when I pick up a book. I read the first few lines. That's my, I skip all the stuff and read the first few lines.

Jason Blitman: 9:16

Sometimes I'll read like the one sentence on the back, like before you get into the blurb, the big picture idea, so that I have a sense of what's the style? What's the genre? But yeah, that's it. Cause, but you're right. The first page, am I going to get into this? And that's all you need.

Nnedi Okorafor: 9:31

And you'll know.

Jason Blitman: 9:32

So for me, part of it too, was the title, Death of the Author. And, you talking about a blurb pointing you in a direction. I feel like the title points you in a direction.

Nnedi Okorafor: 9:42

It's because a lot of people don't know the weight of that title, they don't know where it's from. And so I've had, actually I've had a lot of people who get scared of the title. They're like, are you okay? Are you okay? Cause they're not, so yeah, it can point you, but it can also, it's it's an alarming title. Even when I see it, when I see an, when I see it in like an email subject about my book, every time I see it, I'm alarmed. I'm like, I feel it's unsettling. And so it's I like that. That part of it, it's good. That goes with the book.

Jason Blitman: 10:15

Okay, so Death of the Author, the title, points you in a direction and you are on a journey this whole time, but it is from a quote. Can you share?

Nnedi Okorafor: 10:24

Yeah, there's an essay by um, a French scholar named Roland Barts, it's called the death of the author. And it is all about God, how do I put it? That the author has to die in order for the reader in order for the reader to live, really that's what it is. And so it's about separating the author from what the author has produced. And this is an essay for anyone who has been a lit major or taken lit courses at the collegiate level. This is a familiar essay. It's shoved down our throats. It was, I have a, I have two masters and a Ph. D. So a lot of schooling and that essay was shoved down my throat for so many years. And I hated that essay because I strongly don't believe you can separate the author from the author's work. I feel like they're inextricably linked. So this is something that essay is, has, is triggers me whenever I hear the title. I'm just like, no,

Jason Blitman: 11:22

it's interesting though, because to your you, because there's, you don't have the piece of art without the artist, but is it a piece of art if you don't have an audience?

Nnedi Okorafor: 11:33

I believe it is. I believe it is. And a lot of it has to do with like the way that I started writing, there's a whole thing. And I, I wrote a short memoir called broken places and outer spaces that goes into how I started writing. Cause I can not talk about all of it, but I,

Jason Blitman: 11:51

So go, everyone go read that, and then

Nnedi Okorafor: 11:52

yeah, go read that. It's just too much to explain. But the way that I started writing definitely makes it's very, from the beginning, writing has been a very personal thing and I didn't need an audience creating these stories. The audience was very secondary. It was like something that was coming out of me that I needed to pull out. And it wasn't about whether other people consumed it or not. So I think because of the way that I started writing. The idea of who am I writing for is not a question. It's not something that I've that's that much of a concern with when it comes to what I'm producing and why I'm doing it.

Jason Blitman: 12:35

That's really interesting, because it goes to like the, if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? And the answer is, it does, but no one hears it. So the art does exist, it's just No one's necessarily seeing it. Yeah. Okay.

Nnedi Okorafor: 12:48

And that's okay.

Jason Blitman: 12:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 12:50

okay. Sometimes the art itself, the existence of the art is the important thing. It's all good. Audience, no audience, creating something amazing and no one knowing that it exists. There's some there's a spiritual, something about that. There's a spiritual output about that as well, so it's, yeah, all of it is art to me.

Jason Blitman: 13:11

mean, then the book is about storytelling. It's essentially a love letter to storytelling, to generational storytelling. I, lots of passing stories Down, up, around, through My, my favorite quote from the book, and this is not a spoiler, but is tell me your truth and I'll make it a story.

Nnedi Okorafor: 13:32

I love that line.

Jason Blitman: 13:33

what is, what does that mean to you? Slash? What does that mean? A story is as at its core to

Nnedi Okorafor: 13:40

Gosh. It's hard to talk about it without giving things away in the

Jason Blitman: 13:45

No,

Nnedi Okorafor: 13:45

can't go where I

Jason Blitman: 13:46

could be unrelated to this book. What is just like, what does the story mean to you?

Nnedi Okorafor: 13:50

Oh man it's existence.

Jason Blitman: 13:52

Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 13:53

and whether it's read or not, whether it's consumed or not, whether it's, no, I don't know. There's something about taking something and making it a story and it can be, there are many ways of telling a story. It's not just the written word. It's not just the spoken word. It can be the pantomime word. The danced word the song word. There's so many ways of telling. But like taking something. And putting it into a story makes it, I hate to say immortal because I'm always fighting with that idea of what immortality is and. Whether it's how important it is or not, like that's another topic, but like it does give it a sort of immortality, a sort of it also brings it to fruition. It makes it clear, it makes it understood, and this is whether it is consumed or not. What taking something in and making it into a story does for me.

Jason Blitman: 14:47

What makes a good story to you? Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 14:53

it when you see it, because anything that I'd say, I can find an example that's counter that. You know it when you see it, a good story is the story that does the thing that does the thing, that's a good story, and that thing has many forms, and has many shapes,

Jason Blitman: 15:09

And it's probably different for many people.

Nnedi Okorafor: 15:11

it's different for many people, and it's different for different times as well. It's just, it's the thing though. There's the consistency. The one thing about it is that it's a thing and it, but it changes in every other single way. That's what makes a good

Jason Blitman: 15:26

Yeah. You're right. Another great quote about stories in the book is that stories contain our existence. They are like gods. When did you first fall in love with stories? You say you wrote this book that talks about your journey to writing. But what about a story in general?

Nnedi Okorafor: 15:45

I think I fell in love with stories. When I probably, it was around when I learned to read, but it was like, and it was, it happened at multiple, it happened at different times because stories to me weren't just from reading them. It was from them being told as well. Like I have my, my, I think my, a lot of my mom liked to write and my dad liked to tell stories. I think that combination is really where a lot of this comes from. But I loved listening to stories, especially from older folks when they start just talking. I probably fell in love with stories where a lot of things happened for me, which was in Nigeria. Because in Nigeria, we would Visit and we would go to the village and that's when everyone would come home. It's usually around Christmas or Easter. Everyone would come home. So everyone would be together. And so you have all the generations all together. And I just developed this habit whenever we would go. Cause I was, my parents were taking my siblings, me back to Nigeria from a very young age. And I don't know, I was just attracted to when the elders, especially were speaking when they didn't know anyone else was listening. Okay. And you just hide behind a chair and listen. And whatever they were saying, they were always telling stories about the past and about this and about that, talking about people. And there was something intoxicating about that.

Jason Blitman: 17:12

Were they different from when they did think people were

Nnedi Okorafor: 17:16

Yes. It was always the more taboo stuff. And those things and all those things that I always had questions about because I was very observant and I'm like why does why is auntie over here? Why is she that way? And nobody would ever answer that question because there was something taboo about it. But you'd hear those answers when they were talking when no one when they thought no one was listening. And I think that was really where I started falling in love with this idea of stories and And the secrecy behind them and the power of them because they always felt so, so powerful and also the fact that they were intoxicating. You just, it was just better. It was like candy in a lot of

Jason Blitman: 17:57

That was really where your candy addiction

Nnedi Okorafor: 17:59

Yes, really. It's all connected. It's all connected.

Jason Blitman: 18:02

So in the book, There are, how, what's the best way to describe this, the robots have identities, and one is a scholar, and they go on to say that they ask questions in order to hear other people's stories. And some of the questions are, what were you like when you were young? What were your dreams? Nnedi, I'm curious, what were you like when you were young? What

Nnedi Okorafor: 18:27

Oh, When I was little, I was very imaginative. I started writing when I was 20. And before that, it didn't cross my mind, parents are both doctors, Nigerians, we don't it's always about doctor, engineer, lawyer. You don't go into the arts. That is unheard of. So it's like I was never pushed in that direction, but I was naturally very imaginative. Like one of my earliest memories was we were, we lived in Indianapolis for a while and it was cold and I had a pail like one of those pails that you put sand in and all this detritus from like leaves and twigs and stuff had fallen into it and it had rained and so there was water in it and then it froze and I went outside and I saw that it was frozen. I was like, Ooh, what happened here? And I dumped it over and it was just this chunk of just stuff. And I kid you not, when I looked at that chunk of detritus and whatever and dirt and just leaves, I saw universes in there. I saw twirling universes and stars in this thing. That's how my mind worked. From a young age, that's how my mind always worked. So I was very imaginative. I was always talking about I convinced my whole kindergarten class that the bushes outside, which were red, were infested with demons, so it was like that. I was that kind of

Jason Blitman: 19:54

Wow. Oh my god.

Nnedi Okorafor: 19:56

I don't know, what kind of dreams did I have? Flying dream, imaginative,

Jason Blitman: 20:00

No, but what, dreams of the future? What were your, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Nnedi Okorafor: 20:06

I wanted to be, I wanted to do something with animals and especially bugs. I loved bugs. I loved bugs.

Jason Blitman: 20:13

kind of bugs?

Nnedi Okorafor: 20:14

Grasshoppers.

Jason Blitman: 20:16

My husband hates bugs. So I'm very,

Nnedi Okorafor: 20:19

can understand why someone would hate bugs. I totally understand. Like, when people are like, I can't stand them, I'm like, I get it. I totally get

Jason Blitman: 20:24

You are so much bigger than a bug.

Nnedi Okorafor: 20:26

yeah, yes. That's part of it, though. There's small. They were little, and they were in the grass, and there were worlds happening in the grass. And there were like, there could be empires that rise and fall in a small patch of grass, and you have to be paying attention.

Jason Blitman: 20:41

Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 20:42

So I'd I loved bugs for that read. They're always doing something, whether you liked it or not. I was just fascinated by them. So yeah, I wanted to study them. I wanted to categorize them. I wanted to chase them around and look at them. And yeah, that's what I wanted.

Jason Blitman: 20:55

fascinating. Yeah I think when I start to think too much about bugs, I'll have an existential crisis because it's like, as humans, don't we have to be some course someone else's bug?

Nnedi Okorafor: 21:11

Yeah. Yeah. And but bugs are great. They're powerful and smart and numerous and they, yes, they do kill. Humans could easily be bugs. We can view the, you can view the earth is definitely infested with destructive bugs.

Jason Blitman: 21:25

that's what I mean. Like I think you think about it and you're like, Oh God, where's somebody else's bug? It's funny. You say you want it to work with animals. I briefly wanted to be a dolphin trainer when I was a

Nnedi Okorafor: 21:34

I can see that.

Jason Blitman: 21:37

What does that mean? Daddy?

Nnedi Okorafor: 21:40

Because they're chatty, dolphins are chatty, get to wear a nice outfit and swim with dolphins and all. I could see that. Yeah. And that would be fun. Yeah. I could see that.

Jason Blitman: 21:52

I don't know why, but you telling me that you could see me being a dolphin trainer is very validating to me. I also had a moment of wanting to be a cruise director and I told that to another author and they were like, Oh, I see that. And again, I feel very validated. So I appreciate you. Thank you. You talked about spending a lot of time in your childhood in Nigeria. And the book is so deeply rooted in African culture. And I have to ask what was your cooking moment? And if you're chuckling at this, you have to know a question that's coming up soon, because if, what was your cooking moment, Nnedi?

Nnedi Okorafor: 22:35

So I had to write about it because, we're always trying, like being Nigerian American, you eat the foods. And they're delicious. And you love the foods very much. They are part of your connection to the culture and they're delicious and they're like different ingredients and everything. So at some point, most of us will try to make the food because, we can't be at auntie's house all the time or mom's, and yeah, I'm, of course I had, disasters. I have numerous. Numerous disasters, making a goosy soup, disaster, it's just disgusting, oh my god, it was so bad, making moi, disaster,

Jason Blitman: 23:08

What makes it a disaster?

Nnedi Okorafor: 23:10

I just can't do it!

Jason Blitman: 23:11

But what do you mean? Is it like the wrong ingredient? You overcook it? What's, how what could be happening?

Nnedi Okorafor: 23:16

You eat these foods, and to me, and I know someone who will listen to this podcast who knows a goosy soup, they'll be like, oh, it's so easy to make! It's not! There are so many steps, and then if you mess one thing up, it's so bad! Oh, my God. And when it's bad, it's not edible. But I think the worst one for me was like, there's this fish, this delicious fish that was like, it's a dried fish that you crumble it up and you put it in the stew and it's delicious. And I didn't know how to make this fish, but I came across it at a Nigerian Nigerian market. And this is here in this country. And I'm like, Oh, great. I can make it taste like those things that I love eating. And I get the fish and as soon as I get it, I bring it home and it's like this dried fish on a stick. It's curled onto it. And I'm like, I realized I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know. I'm like, what did, what do you do? So I like crumbled it up and just put it in a stew and it was disgusting and terrible. And then come to find out, I was talking to a friend of mine and he cooks a lot. And he's Oh yeah, that fish, you should, you definitely should have soaked it and make sure that it's clean because sometimes there are worms in it. And I'm like, Oh, what are you talking about? There are worms. And I'm like, Oh, what are you? And then I was just like, I'm never doing that again. I'm just not,

Jason Blitman: 24:29

This book is far more personal than I realized.

Nnedi Okorafor: 24:32

Yes, it is. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's it's so personal in so many details.

Jason Blitman: 24:37

Yeah. Yeah. That's, I, I really, like I said, I feel like I got to know you by reading it. So I, the, my follow up question, because in the book you go on to say every Nigerian American has a cooking moment and they also have a goat experience. So Nnedi, I have to know, what is your goat experience?

Nnedi Okorafor: 24:58

It's just,

Jason Blitman: 24:59

It's the same!

Nnedi Okorafor: 24:59

that. It's exactly what's it like,

Jason Blitman: 25:02

Okay, but, well then we don't need to give it away. We could let people read it in the

Nnedi Okorafor: 25:06

Okay. Yes. So

Jason Blitman: 25:07

So we'll learn about Nnedi's goat experience by reading it in the book. I was hoping, reading it, I was like, I wonder if this is hers? Slash, I hope this is hers.

Nnedi Okorafor: 25:17

It is.

Jason Blitman: 25:18

Oh my god. So

Nnedi Okorafor: 25:21

It is.

Jason Blitman: 25:22

And like I said, the book is so rooted in culture. And I think something so interesting, there's a line that's like the way to Nigeria is through the stomach. And literally the idea of the way to Nigeria is through the stomach. You can transport yourself home through Food. And it was just a nice reminder Of what home is and what home means, and I think that also comes up a lot in the book, metaphorically and theoretically, and But I assume, again, making assumptions based on reading the book, that is a way for you to connect with your roots, is

Nnedi Okorafor: 25:56

Very much very much as a matter of fact, so I'm a pescatarian and I don't eat red meat and, but there's only one exception. It's because like most Nigerian dishes involve meat. Like meat is a big deal and like it's soaked in it and all of that. And I have to be able to eat Nigerian food because that is my connection. And so that's where I relax it when I'm eating that. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:20

It is so weird that you just said that, because it is a transition into talking about robots that I wasn't even expecting. Robots are made up of binary code. And there's a quote, humans didn't think in binary.

Nnedi Okorafor: 26:35

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 26:36

And I, it is an argument I have all the time. Because Vegetarianism, pescatarianism, I will often say we are programmed to think in a binary, to live in this binary world. And if there are exceptions to your quote unquote rule that you're placing on yourself, that is okay, because it doesn't have to be. Binary. And it is okay for you to be a vegetarian, and when you're really craving bacon, have bacon. That doesn't take away your vegetarianism. And so exactly what you're describing. You are a pescatarian, and when it is important to you to be eating Nigerian food that happens to have meat in it, it is.

Nnedi Okorafor: 27:19

Yeah. to incorporate that way of thinking. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of internal deconstruction. And so I don't, I won't judge anyone who can't do it because

Jason Blitman: 27:32

Oh yeah. And it's not judgment it's the being stuck in the binary world. It's that, and it's so challenging when you think about yes and no and right and wrong and black and white and vegetarian and not vegetarian. Like it's, it is all that in our human world. Because we very much do. think in a binary. So

Nnedi Okorafor: 27:54

used to it. We're used to it. That's what's normal to us. And deconstructing that is like taking something apart that's been there all your life. And it's coming at you in all directions since you've been cognizant. So it's it's a lot to do. It's a lot, but when you can do it, it's very liberating.

Jason Blitman: 28:12

Yeah. So because we're so stuck in binary as humans, does that make us robots?

Nnedi Okorafor: 28:20

I think so. And to,

Jason Blitman: 28:22

In a metaphorical sort of

Nnedi Okorafor: 28:23

yeah, there's a lot of that. So those are things that I was thinking about when I was writing this. There's a lot of the robot world and then our world. And there's a lot of, we're just on this side of this. There's a lot of that going And yeah, that is something that I was thinking about that That in a lot of ways, the robots are more liberated than the human beings and in, in certain ways that we're not, we don't necessarily think about, so yeah, I'm I'm like dancing around, not giving away, it's hard, it's hard, but yes,

Jason Blitman: 28:57

I know it is.

Nnedi Okorafor: 28:58

definitely.

Jason Blitman: 28:58

said Zalew, leaves and writes and becomes a writer. Her book is called Rusted Robots, which is not, again, we're not giving anything away. Some robots take pride in their rust. Do you?

Nnedi Okorafor: 29:17

Yes I take pride in my scars and in living and being what I am in the now and all the things that I collect along the way. Like that whole thing was very like the personal aspects even go, they're with the robots as well that's something that I felt was really really special with the rusted robots. There's

Jason Blitman: 29:44

What does human rust mean to you?

Nnedi Okorafor: 29:46

it's living. We're mortal. We're mortal. We're supposed to have the rust. We're supposed to. If you use what you have and using what you have, it gets rusty. It gets rusty. And that's good. That's good. That's what like, I really want to like, I want that idea to really come through for people is that it's good to have some rust, like you've earned it. It's like the rust is earned. That's good. You can't be new forever. You don't want to be new forever.

Jason Blitman: 30:18

I had my annual physical yesterday, and my doctor was asking me about any joint pain

Nnedi Okorafor: 30:27

Oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:28

out of the ordinary. And I just started laughing because I

Nnedi Okorafor: 30:34

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:36

was like, I guess nothing out of the ordinary, but there's this and there's this and there's this and there's this and but that's I think a status quo these days.

Nnedi Okorafor: 30:46

yes. That's Oh, the joints. Woo. Boy,

Jason Blitman: 30:49

So that's like literal rust.

Nnedi Okorafor: 30:51

If you don't you get these things the aches and pains and all that. That's from using them. So it's man, yeah, I can definitely talk about the sound of my knees. Wow. Crickety, crackety, crickety, crack, snap, crackle, pop. And, I'm an athlete.

Jason Blitman: 31:05

But it's interesting. You said it means that you're using them. And I think there's a fine line between using and abusing them.

Nnedi Okorafor: 31:12

True.

Jason Blitman: 31:13

It's like making sure that you're I think using your body, using your skills, using all the things in the right way or in a healthy way. Otherwise maybe things are getting rusty too early or,

Nnedi Okorafor: 31:26

Of course there's always a, there's always a balance. But I, and I put, but I think we focus a lot on the preventative stuff and making sure we're doing things healthily. But I don't think we focus on enough. We, I don't think we focus enough on the fact that using something will eventually wear it out. That's just a fact. That's being a biological being, and that's okay. That's good. That's what you want. When it's all said and done and you're all said and done, do you want to leave behind, I hear people say, I want to leave behind a beautiful corpse. Really? Do you? What does that

Jason Blitman: 32:03

For what?

Nnedi Okorafor: 32:04

what? Yeah, I think yeah, it's the question of balance is important, but I just feel like we don't focus enough on the fact that when you use something, it gets worn out. That's just normal way of things.

Jason Blitman: 32:16

Yeah, it makes me think about books because I get galleys and advanced reader copies, I write in them, I dog ear, I this, I that, I like really use and abuse the books and it feels like I love them because I do. I don't know if I would do the same thing to a hardback book because there's something that feels pristine, but to your point. Why do I need to leave this beautiful corpse? I could show my books some love.

Nnedi Okorafor: 32:46

You should see my books.

Jason Blitman: 32:47

Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 32:48

My books are dog eared. They got everything in and I bought out by the most expensive hardcover all of that and it's still going to look like that, and I love but I love picking up a book that is Well loved. A well loved book is not a clean book. It is a book with coffee stains on it and dog ears and worn out pages and all, like all of that. That is a book when you pick, when I pick up one of those, that one feels like an object. That's a living

Jason Blitman: 33:16

I was just going to say it's living. You've it's had experience. It's made connections. Yeah. Is that, what kind of reader are you?

Nnedi Okorafor: 33:27

I am I read wide, like just a lot of different types of a lot of different types of books nonfiction to fiction to memoir. I love memoir. I really love memoir. If it's a good story, it's what I'll read it if it's a good story. So I don't have when people ask, What is your genre? I do not have a genre. I don't even I

Jason Blitman: 33:51

I didn't want to pigeonhole you. I

Nnedi Okorafor: 33:53

just Yeah, I really appreciate that. But I don't even understand that question. I'm like, What do you mean? So people just only read? So if there's something over there that's interesting, you're not going to go over

Jason Blitman: 34:05

Do you mean if you're a vegetarian and there's

Nnedi Okorafor: 34:07

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:08

you want to try?

Nnedi Okorafor: 34:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:13

get stuck and this is what I like and I say this on I feel like every episode, but I only started reading six years ago. Really reading. And I thought I liked reading one kind of book, and I thought that I liked reading another kind of book, and I do my best to be as open to genres and styles as possible because I'm, I try to keep my heart and my imagination open to just appreciate a good story, no matter what the genre is.

Nnedi Okorafor: 34:40

exactly. Exactly. There's so much, there's so much to taste out there, and that's how I feel. If I go into a bookstore or the library, more importantly, I will not look at the, You know the category I'll just go in there and just browse around and see what catches my eye in that way I found so many different things and also Sometimes I'll just go into the library and just pick something up without even looking at it at all and then just open it up And start and I found some very interesting books that way

Jason Blitman: 35:13

Is there anything that comes to mind?

Nnedi Okorafor: 35:15

The one that God, what was it? It was Norman Mailer. It was a Norman Mailer book, and it was huge. It was a really big book. It wasn't, was it Shot in the Heart? It was, it might have been, it might have been the one that was about the the guy who wanted to be executed. Oh, man, I think it was. And I just can't remember the title. A Shot in the Heart was another one because I went under it was like over a thousand pages. And this was a book. I just, I wasn't even looking. I was just like, okay, let me just pick this up. And then I just started reading it. And then it just kept, it was over a thousand. It was long. I read this whole thing. And I would never have read it if I didn't just do that,

Jason Blitman: 35:53

can't believe you knowingly saw how thick the book was and pulled it off the shelf.

Nnedi Okorafor: 35:58

I love thick books.

Jason Blitman: 35:59

Again, tells me a lot about you. That is so funny. I'd be like, what's the thinnest one on the shelf?

Nnedi Okorafor: 36:08

yeah, thin ones have, thin ones have their charm too. I write a lot of, I write novellas, I get it. I

Jason Blitman: 36:13

I will say, honestly, there are some short books that I have a very hard time getting into Because you don't have time to sit in the narrative. You don't have time to really appreciate the world that we're living in.

Nnedi Okorafor: 36:24

yeah. It's a different experience, which I like.

Jason Blitman: 36:27

Oh, absolutely. There is the time and the place. Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 36:29

Yeah

Jason Blitman: 36:30

I typed up about how the gap between human and robot is closing in my notes and the note auto corrected to cloning. Instead of closing. And I was like,

Nnedi Okorafor: 36:47

I swear, and it's evil,

Jason Blitman: 36:49

right?

Nnedi Okorafor: 36:49

knows what it's doing.

Jason Blitman: 36:51

was like, that is horrifying. Earlier you were talking about time and a place and not just time and a place of reading a book, but time and a place of a book coming out. We're living in this moment of AI right now. Obviously, I'm sure that's going to be a huge part of conversation when you're on book tour. How can we submit to the technology in a productive way?

Nnedi Okorafor: 37:16

Yeah, that's a great question. Because it's not going anywhere. It is not going away. It's not going away. I think that we need to just keep creating. Yep. Yep. We need to just keep being who we are and putting it, we need to just keep creating. We shouldn't be afraid of the technology. I am not for using it in a creative capacity. I just can't understand why anyone would do that. I don't, as an, as a creative, I don't like the heart of. Of creating is the human aspect of it. Like using AI to even help with that. You're losing something. You're losing something. You may be, you may think it's much easier and faster, but it's not about easy, and it's not about fast. For me as a creative, it is, it's about neither of those. It needs to be tough. It needs to be felt. It needs to be experienced. The idea of experience, and this is something, that's definitely in the book. The, I the importance of experience, it cannot be replicated. So there's that. I think that not having a fear of it, don't be afraid of it. It's okay to study it, look at it, check it out, see what it's all, see what it's about. It. The way that the technology was created is a problem. It's definitely something that's created through capitalism and that is a fact. And so it's taking from this idea of it, taking from artists and then using those things to learn is that system. And I'm really saddened that w that was how the technology is created. So it's, we know the problems with it, but I think as as creatives and, but as people as well, don't be afraid of it, let it be there. If they want to have AI written books, let them be there. But. Keep being who you are. Keep being human. Keep exploring what it is to be human. And I think we'll be, I do think we'll be okay. I'm an optimist, but I'm also an irrational optimist. So there's that. But it's, I think it's gonna be really interesting how everything develops.

Jason Blitman: 39:21

Aye aye. I know. I I've said again multiple times, I am an optimist, realist rising.

Nnedi Okorafor: 39:27

Okay. What does that mean exactly?

Jason Blitman: 39:29

To me it means I'm optimistic, and I try to think glass half full but I also know that glass could spill.

Nnedi Okorafor: 39:37

Yes, and break.

Jason Blitman: 39:38

So it's I'm optimistic, but there are real things that can happen.

Nnedi Okorafor: 39:42

certainly. Yeah. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 39:49

Okay, speaking of living your life, we have a little bit of time left, and you were getting emotional at the beginning, and I said we can't get emotional yet, and I'm really sorry, but this might be the time where we get a little bit emotional. I don't mean to get too emotional, but I do have to say thank you for sharing your sister with us. I feel like I know so much about her spirit. I feel like I know her favorite color. I feel like I know a general vibe. And I think knowing how personal this book is to you, to then read some very specific lines, I was like, Oh, not only is it so personal, we're like getting, we're getting Nnedi's journal in here.

Nnedi Okorafor: 40:30

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:32

And so I wanted to thank you for sharing that. I've, you have a beautiful letter at the beginning of the galley. Do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about how the book came to be? Yeah. Yeah.

Nnedi Okorafor: 40:58

I wanted to really write from the beginning. Because one of the things for me when I first started telling stories was like writing the Nigerian American experience. Yeah. Cause I just feel like I wasn't reading it anywhere and it was a lot of confusion, a lot of joy, a lot of really good story in there. And I wanted to talk about that. And also my sisters, cause we're just, man, like I, so I have two older sisters, one who's one year older and then one who's two years older. So it's three of us and we're all one year apart. Very close. Very close. I have my younger brother as well, who's, we're close with my younger brother as well, but it was really three of us. and so we would talk about just this story about about the three of us, and what it is to be Nigerian American, and we were always talking about it and just something. So I started, so this, the stories that I started telling veered towards the science fictional and the fantastic I felt more comfortable there, it was pulled back. I wasn't, it wasn't, I just wasn't ready to write that type of story. That's just so open and naked. And and then, yeah, in in 2021, my middle sister passed and it was sudden. it was unexpected. And this is like my everything, you know, my um, we were at Trinity. And uh, and so like when, when that happened, one thing that I tend to do when I'm writing, and it started with how I started writing. It's I write. when I'm in pain. It's, and it's not because I'm trying to do it's that I, only way I can keep going. And so with this one, it was just her passing, like my father passed and that was bad in a different way, but and that's why I wrote Who Fears Death, but my sister, this was bad. This was like a part of me, like not just a part of me. It's like Me, suddenly not, it's just, oh my God. And so like the only way that I could even keep going was, I was just like, okay, it's time. And so I started writing Death of the Author literally two days after it happened. It just started, it was like, it was time and I was, I, it was time, I was ready, but also it was the only way that I could keep going. Because. It just didn't make sense. I couldn't make sense of anything. I couldn't make sense of anything, and so out came this story. And it was like, it's so much, because Death of the Author isn't only about my sister, but it's There are aspects of, you've read it, so it's she's very much in there. And even in the early draft, she was even more in there. It was, the earliest draft of this, my, one of my editors read it, and she was like, You need to go back and do an edit because reading this was so painful that it was so extremely painful and sad that like it was coming off. It was like just rafting off of the page. So that's what this started as so like even with the title. It's just the title makes sense to me when I look at the title, the feeling that jarring feeling makes sense. So like this one is different from my other books and even the fact that it's being published. And that it's out. It's, that it's out. Oh, man, it feels great, but it feels something else as well. This was this book was a lot. This book was a lot. And the fact that I can even talk about it, it's just hard. But I'm glad I'm glad that I've written this. I'm glad that I have because there's something cathartic about it as well. And I did this, it's like I kept saying my sister's her name is Ngozi over and over again in the story and it echoes and I'm yeah,

Jason Blitman: 44:53

Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. I have two younger sisters myself, and we're very close, and they mean so much to me, and I it's, I'm sure it is not as hard of a book to read as it might have been

Nnedi Okorafor: 45:07

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 45:08

but knowing where the book came from. Only made it an even more rich experience and I feel like I got to know you in such a personal way, and I feel like I got to know your sister in such a personal way, and it felt like it was a dash of memoir with some robot science fiction in there, and I just wanted to share all of that with you, that it meant a lot to me as a person with siblings as well,

Nnedi Okorafor: 45:33

Oh, it's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for connecting with it and I'm glad that's why we writers right,

Jason Blitman: 45:41

There was one line in particular that I won't say but when I reached the ending, it all made sense to me in a way that surprised me.

Nnedi Okorafor: 45:52

Good.

Jason Blitman: 45:53

I questioned why a character said something

Nnedi Okorafor: 45:55

Yes. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 45:56

by the end of the book I was like, oh my god. This all makes sense. It is such a special book. I'm so excited for people to read it. I, it's such a, it's a terrible question to ask creatives because this is barely out in the world and to say, is there anything else that you're working on that we can get excited about? But I have to imagine you finished this and you were like, I have to do something different to

Nnedi Okorafor: 46:20

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:21

Change things up for you emotionally. It was what were you doing? This was obviously such a, an emotional and cathartic experience for you. What did you then do to really release yourself of that?

Nnedi Okorafor: 46:31

Yeah, it's been crazy because there was something about writing this book that has just given me like it's just given me this. I'm already very prolific. That's already known. It's not a flex. It just is. It's just Nnedi. I write. I have a lot of stories to tell and I do them. I was an athlete, so yeah. But

Jason Blitman: 46:50

Wow.

Nnedi Okorafor: 46:53

book in the exercise and of writing it that has opened something up in me. So it's I've been so creative. It's like I have so many stories. It's crazy. I wrote, so I had the novella, my novella, she who knows, which came out in August. And it's the beginning of a trilogy. I wrote that novella in the middle, like at the three fourths mark of when I was writing Death of the Author, which I've never done. I don't do long form, like I do one long form thing at a time, and this one, this story came to me, and it's been a story that had been in my head for a while, and it came at the worst time. It was like, You need to write this now. So I literally stopped and wrote a novella in between and then kept going with death of the author. And then I've been right. I've written the second and the third. All right. Like I'm just, it's just, and I have so many stuff and I have all these stories from in the world of death of the author that keep exploding from my head. I have two short stories and then all it's so much,

Jason Blitman: 47:54

Yeah. See, this is why I asked, because I had a feeling there was a real answer.

Nnedi Okorafor: 48:00

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:01

Because there's no way you just sit in this.

Nnedi Okorafor: 48:03

No, I could not. I could not write something like that. And then that's not the way I operate. First of all, I just, I'm always going. And this one was just like, it was just like this infusion of energy, even though it took a lot of it. I had a, when I was editing death of the author last year, I developed an eye twitch that lasted a year. It lasted a year because the editing, it was so emotional. And just taxing to me that my eyes started twitching. I went to the eye doctors. They're like, it's stress and it's eye strain. It will eventually get better. It lasted a year, so it was like, I was operating on this super high level. And then because for some reason, the way that it it happened for me was that operating at this high level has made me even more creative. It's like I've gone to another level where I'm just. Very productive right now,

Jason Blitman: 48:56

I can't wait to read your book where the character has an eye twitch for a year.

Nnedi Okorafor: 48:59

Oh yeah, it's one of my short stories. I just sold it. I just sold it yesterday.

Jason Blitman: 49:04

Oh my god, congrats! Of course it is! Of

Nnedi Okorafor: 49:06

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 49:06

it is! That's so funny. Okay, before we go, there's something cultural in the book that I find so moving and beautiful. Can you tell me and the listeners, from your perspective, what a masquerade

Nnedi Okorafor: 49:20

Oh, Masquerades, yes. Masquerades are, they are, and I highly encourage all of you to Google this because you have to it's for me to describe what they look like is not enough. Google Ijele. Is a masquerade. I J. E. L. E. Is a masquerade. There are all kinds of masquerades. You might have seen them see them on social media a lot. They are basically manifestations of the dead and the in spirits and And they come out at very important times. And like on a very practical level, fine on a literal level, it's someone who puts on this costume, but when you put on this costume, you become the masquerade. And there, there are many different types of masquerades. I'm obsessed with them. My sisters and I were chased by masquerades when we were little in the village all the time. And we were lucky we were fast. Okay. Cause they had a whip and they'd whip you if you got, it was just, Oh my God, it's so great. It sounds crazy, but whatever. It's fine. It was great.

Jason Blitman: 50:21

There was one, there are a couple in the book and there was one that brought me to tears and it was so special. And again, thank you for sharing all of that with us. Nnedi, thank you for being here.

Nnedi Okorafor: 50:33

My pleasure. This has been great.

Jason Blitman: 50:36

go get Death of the Author by Nnedi Okorafor. It is such a special book and I'm, we're all lucky that it's coming out in January so that we have the whole year to relish in that.

Nnedi Okorafor: 50:47

Yes. Yes. I cannot wait for everyone to read it and talk about it and cause it's quite it's something

Jason Blitman: 50:52

There's a lot to talk about. Yes. I have to hit record before I tell you how fabulous you look.

Holly Stars: 50:58

Oh, thank you

Jason Blitman: 51:00

I'm so angry at this.

Holly Stars: 51:04

Why?

Jason Blitman: 51:05

You're like in all of your drag glory and I, it is not even nine o'clock in the morning for me and I look like

Holly Stars: 51:12

You look

Jason Blitman: 51:13

sweats basically.

Holly Stars: 51:15

Oh, this is just a spot of lippy and a pair of specs

Jason Blitman: 51:19

Holly stars. I'm so happy to have you. Welcome to gaze reading.

Holly Stars: 51:23

I'm excited to be here.

Jason Blitman: 51:25

I want to talk so much about your book, but before we do that, because you are today's fabulous guest gay reader, I have to know, Holly Stars, what are you reading?

Holly Stars: 51:34

What am I reading? Now this is very British, I think, what I'm going to show you now. I don't know if you'll know it. It's Take a Break magazine. And, it is the best magazine. And if you're like in hospital, because you've choked on a peanut or something, and your friends don't come with a copy of this, they've made a big mistake. It's that kind of a magazine, that everyone, when they're relaxing, has a read of Take a Break.

Jason Blitman: 52:02

Okay, before we get into what is in Take a Break, because I'm so curious, who is that on the cover? Do we have her, do we have her contact information? Is she okay?

Holly Stars: 52:13

No, she's just this week's model, but they put a different generic model on the front of every week. But she's got nothing to do with the content inside.

Jason Blitman: 52:24

The way you slowly pulled up the second one. she looks dead in the eyes. I'm, is she okay? Are they both okay? Are they AI generated?

Holly Stars: 52:36

I think maybe they've read too much Take a Break magazine and it's done them

Jason Blitman: 52:40

need to and they need to take a break.

Holly Stars: 52:44

But I love Take Break Magazine. It is a,

Jason Blitman: 52:47

do you, is there like a section that you always flip to?

Holly Stars: 52:50

It's a combination of like lifestyle, puzzles, and true life stories that, that range in, the degree of seriousness of these stories. Sometimes it's like My brother murdered my uncle. And then other times, in this week's edition, there's a story called Happy Newdiversary. A pair of nudists celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary. And the story of how they became the poster child for nudism in the 80s. So it's a very varied magazine, content wise, and that's why it's so fun to read.

Jason Blitman: 53:31

How, do we know how they met? I have so many questions about

Holly Stars: 53:34

It didn't

Jason Blitman: 53:34

Can you just,

Holly Stars: 53:35

they

Jason Blitman: 53:36

can we put your book aside for a minute? Will you just read that out loud to me, the whole article, this whole time? I'm teasing, you don't have to. I'm just suddenly,

Holly Stars: 53:44

I don't know how they met, but it did say they met when she was 60 years of being nudist. They met when she was 20, and after the wedding he told her that he was a nudist, and that she could join him in this nudism and now they're in their 80s, and They're full time nudists. They're gardening, they do everything in the nud.

Jason Blitman: 54:07

Could

Holly Stars: 54:08

So yeah, it's fascinating. Could I do it? No. No. I don't think I would like it. The, I don't think I would like a public nudity.

Jason Blitman: 54:18

Your line of work is adding more things onto

Holly Stars: 54:21

More things. Yeah

Jason Blitman: 54:22

not taking away. I know. I think that's

Holly Stars: 54:26

I'm not wearing three pairs of dance tights, I'm not comfortable,

Jason Blitman: 54:30

I know. Okay.

Holly Stars: 54:32

So yeah,

Jason Blitman: 54:32

Good for them. Very happy for them.

Holly Stars: 54:35

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 54:36

listening to this episode of Gaze Reading.

Holly Stars: 54:39

Oh, I hope they are. We

Jason Blitman: 54:40

Mort is it like Morty and Diane?

Holly Stars: 54:45

No, I

Jason Blitman: 54:45

I've decided that's what their names are.

Holly Stars: 54:48

I'm sure I did a little screen grab of that one. Because Sometimes I get the paper copy, but otherwise I have a subscription on my iPad. And for when I'm out and about, for easy access to take a break.

Jason Blitman: 54:58

Yes, of

Holly Stars: 54:59

Here they are. Here they are. There they are. And happy new diversary

Jason Blitman: 55:04

my

Holly Stars: 55:05

from when they met to modern day.

Jason Blitman: 55:08

I'm very invested in this. Holly, this is

Holly Stars: 55:11

You need to get on it. Take a break magazine. It is a British staple since 1990.

Jason Blitman: 55:18

I'm curious'cause we all read magazines differently. I'm always the person who there was one. Magazine. I can't remember if it was when I was living in New York or in Chicago, and in the back, it was like, sex advice. And I, that was always the first place I went. I was like, what are people asking, I have to know. And then everything else came next. But are you a games person? Are you a gossip person? Are you, tell me more.

Holly Stars: 55:47

Yeah, I'll do some of the games because sometimes there's cash prizes, but I don't enter for the cash prizes very often. But I do the games, the crosswords and that kind of thing. And then I also enjoy reading the horoscopes. Don't believe one single jot in horoscopes, but I'll have a little nosy.

Jason Blitman: 56:05

Yes.

Holly Stars: 56:06

a section called Dear Doctor where you can write, I don't know why people don't go to a real doctor, but instead they write in to Take a Break magazine with their medical problems and the doctor answers them in the magazine.

Jason Blitman: 56:19

You should write and say, dear doctor, what are your qualifications?

Holly Stars: 56:25

are you a real doctor?

Jason Blitman: 56:27

you a real doctor?

Holly Stars: 56:28

I think she is a real doctor, but people write in with things like, I think my son might be allergic to pineapple because every time he eats it, this was in this week's, every time he eats it his lips swell up and I'm like don't give him any more

Jason Blitman: 56:40

him pineapple!

Holly Stars: 56:43

take him to an allergy doctor, write him to take a break and wait for six weeks for the thing to come out

Jason Blitman: 56:49

That's worse than Googling, because Googling, it at least pops up immediately.

Holly Stars: 56:54

Yes! But no people write into Take A Break magazine instead. It's very interesting. I love seeing what people send in.

Jason Blitman: 57:01

Holly, I have to tell you, this is why I don't only ask about books. Because This has opened a whole new world for me.

Holly Stars: 57:10

It's iconic and we have a few variations of Take A Break. Take A Break's the main one, like the classic posh one that you can get of this type of magazine. But there's also one called Chat and one called That's Life. But those ones are often a bit more murdery and I'm not so interested in the true life murder stories.

Jason Blitman: 57:30

Oh, like

Holly Stars: 57:31

I prefer a lifestyle story.

Jason Blitman: 57:33

Yes. There should be like a, take a short break, and that's the one that you bring to the toilet.

Holly Stars: 57:39

Yes!

Jason Blitman: 57:39

Like

Holly Stars: 57:40

You need to write, you need to write in.

Jason Blitman: 57:43

know, could you imagine?

Holly Stars: 57:44

suggest that.

Jason Blitman: 57:46

Take A Break, I'm an American, and I've just heard about you, but I have an idea.

Holly Stars: 57:52

ha! I haven't, I, it's gonna change the industry.

Jason Blitman: 57:55

Okay. I love what you're reading. I love this. But what was I just reading?

Holly Stars: 58:02

Oh, yay!

Jason Blitman: 58:04

This was sitting on our coffee table and my husband turned to me and he said, I've been watching too much Drag Race because that looks like a drag queen to me. And I said, that is a drag queen and that's exactly what you should think.

Holly Stars: 58:14

Good! That's what we want.

Jason Blitman: 58:20

For our listeners, please tell us what is your logline for murder in the dressing room?

Holly Stars: 58:28

Yes Murder in the Dressing Room. Misty Devine is an up and coming star of the London drag scene, and her drag mother is murdered backstage with a poisoned chocolate. When the police don't seem interested, Misty decides that she will turn detective herself to catch the killer. So that's the premise, and it's a sort of journey through a kind of fictionalized London drag scene where Misty goes from place to place talking to kings and queens to find out who might have done it.

Jason Blitman: 59:02

This is not your first dip into the murder mystery genre.

Holly Stars: 59:09

No.

Jason Blitman: 59:11

what you, I feel like, are known for these days.

Holly Stars: 59:14

Maybe maybe yeah.

Jason Blitman: 59:17

Because I was very familiar with Death Drop, the play happening in the UK. I was obsessed with the artwork and I was obsessed with seeing the pictures coming out and obsessed with seeing what queens were coming into the show. So you were very much on my radar. So then to see you coming out with this book, I was like, Oh, this Holly Stars. She's like a little modern Arthur Conan Doyle. How did that come to be?

Holly Stars: 59:44

Even before I started performing, Before, well before I started performing 20 years ago I started writing my first crime novel and that was always what I wanted to do was to write crime fiction and then I started performing and channeled my writing efforts into writing stories about my family. evil neighbor, posh Sue, and all the terrible things that she's done to me. And so my stand up comedy is storytelling about the terrible neighbors on my street. And that's where I channeled everything.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:20

And then you started imagining murdering them.

Holly Stars: 1:00:22

Yeah! I'd been doing that for a few years before I was asked to write Death Drop. And so I said, yes, definitely, that sounds lovely. And once I'd written Death Drop and it was running on the West End and it was going really well, I thought, you know what, I'm going to see if I can pick up some of that crime fiction stuff I was doing before and see if there's a way to carry it through. And I messaged a literary agent and said, would you like to come and see Death Drop? We got talking and murder in the dressing room was born. Yeah, so one thing led to another, but I'd always been interested in writing crime fiction. It just was fun. That's why I enjoyed reading.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:01

It is not an uncommon story that people are on a path to do one thing, and then next thing they know they fall into drag in some way. And I, suddenly, you saying this, I'm just imagining, what if everybody who wanted to go on one path, then became a drag queen, then circles back to do that first thing, but as a drag queen?

Holly Stars: 1:01:28

They

Jason Blitman: 1:01:28

Someone wanted to be a doctor,

Holly Stars: 1:01:31

Yeah!

Jason Blitman: 1:01:32

a drag queen. Now I want to see them as the drag

Holly Stars: 1:01:34

The Drag Doctor. Hey, that'd be a proper good American reality television program, wouldn't it? Botched or something. Imagine, it'd be so good. The Drag Doctor.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:46

Yes.

Holly Stars: 1:01:47

Just be tons of filler and Botox.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:50

I heard that you listen to the same song over and over again, what was your Murder in the Dressing Room song?

Holly Stars: 1:01:58

a big chunk of it, it was. A Case of You by Joni Mitchell, I was listening to the version of it from the Practical Magic soundtrack, and when my Spotify wrapped thing came in, it said that I was in the 0. 001 percent of listeners of the Spotify, of the Practical Magic soundtrack last year. So I felt quite proud of myself. I felt like writing to Sandra Bullock to let her know that I was still listening all these years later.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:29

You should take a screenshot and tag all the Practical Magic people in it on

Holly Stars: 1:02:32

I should. So yeah, I usually bore out of a song after about a Two or three months, and then I have to find a replacement that's not going to be too distracting to, to write to. So actually, recently, it has been the Ballad of the Witch's Road from Agatha all along. And that, that has been, that, that'll be top of my Spotify raps next year, this

Jason Blitman: 1:03:00

So this is one of three Misty Divine Mysteries coming up. Is there anything, obviously this book is coming out into the world now. Are there particular things that, that you're excited for people to look forward to for future books?

Holly Stars: 1:03:17

There's, there are some big hints, especially in the epilogue, about what might be coming next for Misty. And so I think people will get to the end of book one and have a sort of hint. Or an idea of what book two might be about. And and the same with book two leading into book three. There'll be a, a sort of hint of what's coming next. So yeah, hopefully, if people have enjoyed it, they'll get to that bit and think, Oh, I can't wait for the next one. That's what would be lovely.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:49

Are you putting yourself in her shoes in the book because this is something that you perhaps would love to do in real life? Could you ever solve crime?

Holly Stars: 1:04:00

Ooh. I think it'd be quite fun to try, but I don't know if the reality of it is very much investigating the poisoning of a drag queen with a chocolate. It's not, the type of crime that I'm writing about is likely not being investigated very often.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:21

That's probably fair. I guess maybe my real question is are you Do you have those sort of natural instincts? Do you like walk into a room and see, oh, that's out of place. Oh, that wasn't there before. Oh, that smell is something from that person who I know what their cologne was because I gave them a hug three days ago at the bar. Do you know what I mean?

Holly Stars: 1:04:45

Oh yeah, I'm definitely one of them. I'm quite observational. And also I enjoy trying to solve a myth. Watching them on telly, and, and I'm usually quite good at that. So yeah, maybe I'd be alright at it. And actually, when I was first writing Murder in the Dressing Room, and it's still on my bio for, on some websites, I don't know how it's still, being released because I was like, take that out when I didn't have time to do it anymore. I was training to be a private detective and I did the first two modules of some course about so I hadn't got very into the actual investigative bits, but it was about the ethics and the sort of practicalities in those first two modules. And then I ended up so busy with other stuff that I just couldn't carry it on and finish it. But I did for a while think, oh, this would be a fun thing to learn if I, and that would help me with the writing and everything. So yeah, so I gave it a go and maybe I'll pick it back up again at some point. I don't have time now, but but yeah, at some point perhaps I will.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:43

So really what I'm hearing is that my instinct was right.

Holly Stars: 1:05:47

I was doing it more for the writing than for me

Jason Blitman: 1:05:51

Next thing you're going to solve a murder

Holly Stars: 1:05:53

Next thing you know.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:54

That's

Holly Stars: 1:05:55

I'm gonna be hiding outside cheap hotels looking for cheaters, and I'm gonna love it.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:03

Holding your take a break like this.

Holly Stars: 1:06:07

Yes!

Jason Blitman: 1:06:08

Okay, since this is, again, gaze reading, this is a safe space, do you have any grievances that you want to air? Are you reading anything with a capital R, capital E, capital A? Oh,

Holly Stars: 1:06:25

Because we're now on our 12th consecutive month of winter in the United Kingdom and it's exhausting

Jason Blitman: 1:06:33

Do your lashes freeze?

Holly Stars: 1:06:35

My lashes freeze, my eyebrows freeze, that might be Botox, but frozen from head to toe. So I've had enough of winter that's what I would read if I could read anything right now.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:48

I know. You could do like a winter mystery, a winter murder mystery.

Holly Stars: 1:06:53

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a good idea. Maybe maybe I will. Second one's summer. First one, second time. And second one's summertime also. So maybe. But maybe winter's a bit bleak for a murder mystery.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:06

a little on the nose, the blood in the snow,

Holly Stars: 1:07:11

But then it could be really camp at the same time, couldn't it? Someone, disguised as Santa killing people or something. That's horrible, isn't it? But

Jason Blitman: 1:07:20

But murder's horrible! Or Mrs. Claus, dressed as Mrs. Claus.

Holly Stars: 1:07:24

Mrs. Cla See, now we're talking. We would do like a festive Misty Devine special.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:29

Yes, she order she orders her Mrs. Claus suit from the toilet, reading her Take a Short Break magazine.

Holly Stars: 1:07:39

This is a whole thing. This is a whole thing that I was not expecting, but I'm loving it.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:46

Oh my god, Holly Starr, you're gonna get off and be like, Who was that guy? Why was I on that show?

Holly Stars: 1:07:52

No, I'm loving

Jason Blitman: 1:07:53

he think he is?

Holly Stars: 1:07:54

This is a treat!

Jason Blitman: 1:07:58

Holly Stars, this has been so lovely.

Holly Stars: 1:08:01

So lovely, thank you so much for having me on, I've really loved it.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:05

Thank you for being here. Murder in the Dressing Room is out now.

Holly Stars: 1:08:09

Out now.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:11

Out now. Everyone go check it out. It is delightfully fun and camp. Go enjoy your puzzles.

Holly Stars: 1:08:17

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:18

going to encourage you to send something in to try to win the money.

Holly Stars: 1:08:22

Yes, I need to. I need to do that.

1:08:25

Thank you Nettie. Thank you, Holly. So much both of you for being here. follow gays, reading. wherever you get your podcasts links to all of the things are in the show notes. Make sure to check out art rec bookclub.com. Use the code gays reading at checkout to get your first book for$4. See you all next week. Thanks so much. Bye.