Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Hello, and welcome to gaze reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And on today's episode, I am thrilled to share with you. A live in-person recording with Lottie. Jeff's where she talks to me about her book. This lab. This conversation was recorded. Live at Warwick's bookstore in San Diego. And you can buy signed copies of this love from Warwick's. right now. The link is in the show notes. You could follow gaze reading on Instagram at Gay's reading. You can also follow Warwick's books. as well as Lottie Jeff's. Please like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops And if you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends. And now please enjoy my in-person conversation with Lottie Japs. I am very excited. to be in the beautiful Warwick store very intimately with Lottie Jeffs here to talk to you about your new book This Love. Thank you for being here with me. Thank you Jason. It's such a pleasure and Warwick's bookstore. It's fabulous to be here Okay for Folks here for our listeners. What is the elevator pitch for the book? I feel like I've just about got a good one now. Yes, you have to have cracked it by now. After three years of talking about it. so Ari and May meet in their first year of university in Leeds. She is a lesbian, he is a pansexual queer person, and they have this incredible platonic instant connection and electric friendship. and they kind of complete each other in a way. They soften each other's edges, they bring the best out of each other. And they're this kind of incredible power couple on campus. Everybody wants them at their parties and they have this like magnetic energy. Later on in this um, first part of the book where they're in their early twenties, they decide that they want to do something with this love they have for each other. That's it. It's, it's too kind of magnificent to just not consummate it in a, some kind of platonic way. So they agree that they are going to have a child together one day, because that feels like the most obvious thing to do to create something out of their love for each other. Um, however, life intervenes and they end up not having the family they necessarily expected to, but perhaps the kind of family that they were always destined to become, but could never imagine. Well, and it's interesting because I think there is that sort of stereotypical thing that like the young person says to their friend, Oh, if we're, you know, both 40 and we're single, we should marry each other, like that sort of thing. But you never really think it's going to come to fruition. Right. But then this is sort of like, okay, well, what happens if that really does come through? Yes. Um. Okay, before we dive in to sort of the relationship, I have to talk to you about something that is on page one. Oh god, okay. I promise I read past page one. But this happens to be on page one. Um, where Is it a typo? No. No, but it's funny you say that because I did bring up a typo once to somebody in their advanced reader copy. Oh, okay. In the podcast? I did. Oh, wow. Because the typo made up, made a new word. Oh, okay. Yes. I bet they really appreciated that. She knew exactly what I was going to say. She was like, you're going to say this, aren't you? And sure enough, I did. Okay. So she knew it was correct. Alright, it's not a typo. What is it? No, it's not a typo. Um, uh, Clammy hands grasping at my waist seemed marginally more likely this was a come on than a pickpocket attempt. For the people who might find themselves in close quarters, what is the difference? How can we prevent, how can we be safe from a pickpocket attempt? I mean, it's a fine line, right? Yes, I thought so! And it's also like, now you read it back to me, it's like, maybe times have changed now from this is set in like the, I guess Early, yeah, 2014. Maybe you could get away with slipping your hands down a bunch of girls pants in bars in a way that is maybe a little bit more problematic today. Um, but yeah, there was a bit of rummaging. But it was 100 percent a come on and not It was 100 percent a come on, yes. What does a pickpocket feel like? A little bit looser maybe, a little bit more of a tickle. Oh, less aggressive. Less intentional. Yeah, but I think she kind of enjoyed it and I think that line is just like Uh, expressive, um, quite instantly in the book, as you mentioned, it's on page one of May's like somehow slightly like off kilter personality, like she's a bit direct and sort of, um, obtuse sometimes and like have phrasings for things and the way she's, she's sort of a bit bristling about. a bit annoyed about the world somehow. So I think that, that, if anything, that's hopefully what that bit of dialogue is. Of course, and it does. I just was like, oh, what does pickpocketing feel like? I mean, I'm lucky enough, I have experienced a couple of times, but not continually. It's also, I guess, maybe because it's in my brain as a gay musical theatre kid, when I think pickpocket, I think Oliver. All of a twist. Ah, right. Which like takes me right to London, which like is very British. So like, when I think pickpocket, I'm like, oh, that's a thing that happens in London. You've really like dwelled on this like very far away line. Well, that's because I didn't go beyond page one. And that's the end of podcast. Right, and the end. The end of podcast. for being here, Lottie. Uh, okay, so the beginning of the book is, is May and Ari's. Meet Cute. Mm hmm. And I, uh, the book is very special to me because I have that relationship. Oh, that's so nice. My Ari slash Mae did not, um, we did not decide to have a kid together at some point in our lives. But we have experienced those ups and downs. We have, we met each other at a very young age and have like been on a journey and we're still very good friends. That's great. What is Who's your Ari? Well, I think I've had three, of these really close friendships with gay men at different stages of my life. One at school, so like the equivalent of high school in the US, so from like 12 to 17. I had my friend Will, and then I went to art college, and I met my friend Sam, who is probably the closest to Ari in terms of the way he dressed and presented himself and his confidence and um, charisma. And then at university I met my friend Joe within Like the first few days of being at university and each of those boys became like my best friend And then I introduced them to each other and like they became friends outside of me Which was actually really sweet as well Although a little bit jealous making sometimes if they were like hanging out without me But yeah I guess they were that experience of like finding someone that you just feel like you're stronger together And like when you walk into parties together, you're like Yeah. You have your person. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a particular meet cute with any of them that is memorable? Ooh. Not so much because they were all sort of in university, like more academic settings. Like I walked into a classroom and then they were there. But Uhhuh, I certainly remember like being really curious and interested in this beautiful boy art college who had like long blonde hair and was at once. So, um. Feminine and over the top and created these, like, amazing sculptural dresses, but also drank pints of beer and smoked weed and talked like a football hooligan and, like, could shift, like, chameleonically between these different social spaces. And he wasn't even out as gay, actually, uh, when I first met him at university. And I just found him, like, really compelling as a, as a person and, I think that in a way was a really significant friendship because We both started exploring the gay scene together and although I'd sort of been dabbling in it at school with my other friends I was out when I was 15 and I grew up in central London So I was lucky enough to be able to like get the bus into Soho, which is London's like main gay area With Sam at art college, you know, we were of the age where we were like in our 20s. We weren't looking at like kids anymore in bars, but we were like the young hot people in any room. So red ropes were opening for us. We would be swept up in like random C list celebrities orbits for the night and find ourselves in like after parties and VIP areas, just mainly because he was so beautiful. And I just kind of tagged along like less meet cute. Specifically and more like, more of like the fun that we had together. Early, early foundational experiences. We had definitely had. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, I very distinctly remember my friend basically telling me that we're going to be best friends Oh really? That's cute. Yeah, it was, it was a, it was more, uh, uh. I think at the time. Um, I can reflect on that and say that it's cute now. Um, I, I love her very much. Uh, you talking about, um, Ari and his sexuality, talking about a sort of, you didn't quite say one of your friends was androgynous, but talking about sort of some feminine qualities, dresses, etc. The idea of pansexuality in the book, I think, um, It's complicated, I think people are uncomfortable by it, or don't know what to do with it, or um, it's sort of new and different. Yeah. Why, why do you think it's something people have a hard time with? Well, I think in the book it's really Mae that has the issue with it. I think in real life, lots of people have a hard time. But in real life, maybe people do, but so I can really only speak for the character in the book, which is to say that. She is a very black and white person and I think people have asked me like how much of myself is in May and we are quite similar in lots of ways but I think where we really differ is she is much more binary in her thinking about gender and sexuality and with Ari she meets him and she decides that he's her gay best friend and he's gay just like she's gay and she kind of creates this whole narrative for him in her head which actually he never says that he's a gay boy. Right, they're just assumptions that are made. Yeah, and it suits her for him to be. And because he has so much mystery attached to him and there's so many unanswered questions, the one thing she thinks she knows and understands about him is that he is gay. And she knows that and gets it. But I think it speaks to the sort of unknowableness of the people that we love and the kind of fear in really getting close to someone and then suddenly being confronted by the fact that you might not really know them, or there might be something that they're that you'll never understand about them and that that can be really scary to have that interplay of intimacy and distance. So I wanted deliberately deliberately. For me to be this sort of butting up against like, um, the gray areas and not liking them. And I think she goes on a bit of a journey herself to realize that life is a bit more complicated and things aren't as binary as she likes to think. But it takes her, you know, the book spans like 10 years and I think it takes her, a good while to realize that. But also Ari isn't clear and he doesn't communicate his sense of self to her necessarily because I think he's quite, um, untethered, ungrounded himself when they meet. And so he quite likes this air of mystery around him and he quite likes not being, not feeling like he has to pin himself down. So in a way he's complicit in not defining himself. Who he is to her. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I think Funny the episode of gaze reading that dropped today There's a big conversation about robots and how robots are Made of binary code and how humans are not and we have a whole conversation about about humans really thinking in a binary way, even though we're not made up of binary code. And so I think it is not an uncommon experience for people to have a hard time with anything that is not quite black and white. Um, and to sort of, there is something very human about Ari in his way of going about life. Right. I don't want to talk about pansexuality as a person who's not pansexual, but that is what sort of came across for me. It is a piece of, there's a humanness about it for him. Um, Okay, this is your debut, novel, fiction, yes. How did this story come to be? Um, I, I honestly just, I can't really tell you, it feels like a weird fever dream. I, if I look at this book cover in front of me now, like, I can't tell you how I did it. It feels like completely bizarre that I actually managed to write a novel. Um, I think a mix of like manifesting and magic and just like the idea honestly just came to me fully formed and I remember sitting on a wall outside my house and I was, Writing in my notes app, the whole idea and I was supposed to be home and like my kid had just got back from school and my wife's like, where are you? And I just have to, I was literally like standing by the wall outside my front door, just like finishing writing this note because I was like, if I don't write this down now, I'm, it's going to go. So the idea just landed. I mean, obviously it hasn't, it's been my life and years of thinking and having these relationships and stuff. But in terms of like, I'm going to write this story. It arrived like that. The rest of the writing of the book, unfortunately, wasn't such a kind of magical experience and is literally just hard work. And like, as anyone that has written a book knows, it's just like chipping and chipping and chipping away at a bit of stone until it turns into something resembling a sculpture of some sort or whatever you wanted it to be. And it's just a long, arduous process and it's work. But it's great. And I would recommend everyone tries writing a book, it's brilliant fun, but it is work. It's interesting that you use that example, simply because I've seen the David, and you see, and that's in the room with other pieces of stone that like are not fully chipped away at, but there are pieces of them, and so it's fascinating to be like, oh, there are all of these pieces that are like not. Quite fully formed and yet this one is sort of has made it through. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, How long did it take you from that note at moment? Um, I think from that to it being published was probably about three years. Okay, that's actually quite fast. Do you think? Oh yeah. I feel like it's, maybe because previously I've written non fiction which the turnaround is quite quick. Yeah, yeah. Quick. So this. It felt like a long time and there was the pandemic in there and like, what is time and it's like, what is time? Yeah, I was almost Okay, something about the book that was I I tend to read multiple books at the same time I Generally only do it when they're different genres or different styles or different like it's but for some reason I happen to be reading three books that were all fiction that all had Um, non linear timelines. Okay, was it doing your head in? And I was like, this is basically an epic mini series in my brain right now. And it was, it was sort of fun, actually. To like live, I was like living in London, and I was living in uh, Nashville, and in Chicago. And like all of these different, different pieces. It was very interesting, actually. Um, but very funny for me, very topical, that I, there were multiple books. in my, in my moment that are, that cover non linear timelines. Where did that piece come in for you? So, I wrote the book originally, um, without the flash forwards. And then I felt like it was, it was lacking some kind of gravitas. Like, I felt like I needed to see these characters. I need to see what life had done to them and how they had survived the years and I wanted, I guess because I am, you know, in my early forties, I just felt like I didn't want to leave them at this early stage. ish stage of their lives, like I wanted to see how they had weathered the journey of life together and I was just kind of interested and I was very attached to the characters by that point so I was like yeah I'm gonna write this whole bit and introduce this, I won't spoil it, but like surprise element that you kind of get to through reading the book, um, that gives it a little bit more drama and depth and, yeah, it felt important for me to see where they landed as characters. Yeah, um, I, I'm, After we're done, I have a question I need to ask you that's a spoiler, but I'm not going to ask it. Oh, okay. Um, okay, the book, so much of it is about non traditional families. It is about chosen family. It is about intentional family. Um, is that what Armistead Maupin calls it? Intentional family? Um, by, uh, logical family. Logical family. Yeah. I knew we'd get there. Um, uh. What is your experience with that? So, I have a really great, um, biological family. And then, through my own experience of becoming a parent, um, with my wife carrying our child, I, and using an anonymous donor, have experienced family building in this less conventional way. And, um, I've experienced personally what it's like to bring a child into the world that isn't biologically connected to me, however, is so biologically connected to me. You know, she is, I've been physically, biologically with her from the day she was born, like she's been on my skin. My hormones have changed. I've experienced the sort of same. Um, post birth journey, in a way, as my waifu character has, so, as, as most parents do that equally care for a newborn baby, so, um, those things were, like, top of my mind. And of course, just being queer and feeling like you are, um, curating your family through your friends, which I think is becoming, like, more and more common as a trope, but what I wanted to do, maybe, slightly differently was To, I think sometimes, um, we in culture see, um, chosen family as somehow taking precedence over the family you're born into and that, like, the family you're born into are kind of, don't represent you, are a bit boring and lame and, like, let's go and find our fun friends and they're our family. Whereas what I wanted to do with this book was show that actually, The characters needed to work hard to find their connection to the family they were born into as well as create a family of their own. And I think that I really wanted to show that Mae's parents in particular, in particular, she had, as is typical of her character we're learning, created this idea of them in her head that they are out of touch, they don't understand her, she'll never be close to them. But actually she just needed to give them some space to show her who they were and She had written them off too soon, and she hadn't actually given them the credit that they deserved as people She'd sort of seen them very much. It's like her parents and they're not People in the way that her friends are so I really wanted to like be a little bit gentle with those characters of her mum and dad and show that okay at first they put their foot in it a bit or a bit, um, yeah maybe a little bit out of touch or, um, their, some of their reactions to her sexuality had been a bit disappointing, um, but they change and evolve and I think everybody should be given space to, um, To change and evolve in their lives and, and yeah, there comes a point where you might have to stop trying with someone. But I think you do need to try to a certain extent. So I wanted to show chosen family and the family you're born into. I wanted them to coexist equally in this book. Yeah, something that comes up per what you were just talking about. It's getting stuck on the why, and why you're gay, and where did that come from, and so it's this element of like not being homophobic, but also like quietly disappointed. Really, exactly, so that's what her mom is, she's like, I think, um, the line is like she wrapped her disappointment around her like an expensive pashmina or something, she just is wearing this sort of slight like, ugh. What a shame yeah, and I think that's such a common reaction. It's like I'm not homophobic But he's such a lovely guy. Wouldn't it have been just so nice if he'd met a nice woman, you know and it is that sort of like Um, cottagey homophobia that's actually really annoying. It sort of, too, goes back to the conversation about binary because it's this idea of what things are supposed to be. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Um, it's interesting that you said that, uh, chosen family is sort of becoming a trope, which is so interesting to me because That feels more right for me as a reader, um, having read so many books that are family dramas, right? Every family drama at this point is essentially the same, right? I mean, not actually, but like, I love a family drama, give me all of them. But you read one, you sort of read a version of all of them. Um, and I think more and more as people are becoming, as people are becoming, Sort of period, uh, we are, it is easier to sort of see the chosen family is perhaps more common and becoming a trope for a reason, I would like to think. Totally, I totally agree, yeah. Okay, Queer Families is your work. It is, yeah it is actually. Tell, can you share a little bit about what you do and how that relates to So, I started doing a podcast with my friend Stu. Um, it was called Some Families and he's an adoptive dad of three kids and I, at the stage we were doing the podcast, had just become a parent to my daughter. Um, I think she was like maybe one or two at the time. Maybe a bit older. Like a toddler. Yeah. Um, and in that podcast we interviewed lots of different queer parents. So people who had come to being a parent through all sorts of different ways. Um, solo parenting, surrogacy, trans guys carrying their own child, um, adoption, fostering, um, or, you know, a, a whole spectrum of different kinds of parenting. And. And through that also exploring my own journey as a queer parent. Learning things about myself, like even that thing I was telling you about, um, the difference between saying I'm a non biological parent. I've stopped saying that because I learned through recording this podcast that it's not actually true. Scientifically, you are a biological parent if you just do the work of parenting. So, you know, I was learning and changing and filling my world with other experiences of queer parenting. So that was very top of mind when I wrote this book. I also then In between writing The Queer Parent and this book, or maybe before The Queer Parent, I wrote a picture book for children called My Magic Family, which is basically this love for four year olds. How fun! It's really cute, and actually, funny enough, it's my friend Joe, who was my RE at university, who is the publisher of that book. So we worked on it together. That's so special. So in a way, that was our little baby. So we did, we did do it. Um. So that's a sweet story about a little girl with two mums going to nursery or kindergarten and wondering if other children in the class are going to have two mums like her. And she, through fairy tale, she learns that The other children don't necessarily have two mums, but they have all sorts of other Fantastical kinds of families that she learns about and her family is just one of the many different kinds of families she encounters So it's a super sweet book and it's done. It's really like heartwarming and I suddenly found myself going from like I used to be the editor of Elle magazine and then I was suddenly like Sitting in libraries with, like, all these, like, three year olds and four year olds, like, staring up at me. And I was like, how am I? What's happened to my the journey from editor at Elle magazine to Reading picture books to kids. Well, to, like, being essentially a queer parent guru. Um, so I got made redundant. Um, I did, but actually it was, I was, um, the executive editor of Elso, but like the deputy editor and, um, I was applying for the job of editor in chief and they gave the job of editor in chief to the fashion director. Sharp inhale and, um, the new editor let me go. Because you wouldn't want somebody that was going for your job to be your Number two. Which is, you know, I probably would have done the same. Like, it's no hard feelings. But, as we learned when we were very young, first is the worst, second is the best. Exactly. And you know, it gave me great fodder for the book, and the character of V, and, um, the whole, uh, part of the book that's set in a magazine office. Um, but so after I That was your way of working through some trauma. Totally. But after I lost my job at Elle, which was, you know, it was actually hugely traumatic because that was a job that, um, I had invested so much of my sense of self in, and my personality, and my ego, and my, you know, free stuff that you get when you work for a magazine, and it was suddenly all like ripped from under me. So I worked in advertising for a bit. I really, really didn't like that at all. Um, because it was full of just men being boring. Um, and then I It was just like, I'm going to work for myself and I'm going to write books, and I did. And then I've never looked back. And now I still do write for Elle and I have a great relationship with them and, um, I'm just not in the office. Yeah. Which is fine. It's not quite the same because I didn't have the same experience as you, but in the, in COVID with, The world shutting down. Mm-hmm You know, I feel like I made my whole identity around working in theater and in the arts, right? And so I really had this sort of existential crisis afterwards being like, okay, who am I now? Who, where am I getting my validation? Like, yeah, right? If this doesn't exist, like who am I at parties where people ask me what I do if I can't say this cool thing I do anymore. I think it's something a lot of people probably really, really relate to. Mm-hmm Um, and I have written about it actually. I think as a journalist, I'm one of those journalists that writes about things that happen to me. So I've literally mined every single Aspect of my life for copy. So everything from like losing my job to becoming a parent, to my parents' divorce, to my marriage, to I don't know. Now it's turning 40. I've written a load of articles about turning 40. You know, like Laie, I'm right behind you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna channel all of these things that I'm dealing with. Yes. Well, I can send you them into writing every single, um, life stage. Perfect. That's cool. For every moment. Thank you. Thank you. Um, okay. Talking about marriage, there's something that comes up in the book. Um, essentially saying that marriage is the anchor that lets you explore. Mm. And that was very interesting to me because when people ask me if I feel anything different post marrying my husband, um, the answer is not complicated, but no, I think sort of day to day felt the same. But there I sort of felt the anchor. I felt the safety. There's always that thing to come back to. Yeah. Whatever explore means in the context of your relationship, right? Um, but that, for me, is what getting married changed. Mm. You wrote that in the book. Yeah. And I stand by it. Can you talk about your relationship with that as a concept? I do stand by it. Like, you know, I'm on this trip. Yeah. And I've been away for, like, coming up to you. ten days without my wife or child and I've been having a great time and They've been having a great time as well in a, maybe like a less fun way than me, but you know, I think to just know that you have this, this kind of commitment and this thing that you can return to and you can go off and have adventures and explore and, you know, evolve and meet new people and then, you know, You've still got this, you've, you've built something together that's so meaningful that it will be there hopefully for you to return to and I do think that's really nice but here's a question for you Jason. Uh oh. Um, do you think that makes us less good quiz for being so Heteronormative in our, um, relationships. I think that the term anchor can mean a lot of things. I would argue that no offence to any heteronormative relationship. However, I would say that in my exp How bad am I on a phrase list? In my experience, the way in which my husband and I are able to communicate is No offense to my straight friends, superior. That's so true, I get it. Well, and I, I say this, and I've said this before, some of it I think is because we have had to have difficult conversations in our life, as queer people. Right, from the moment you come out. Exactly. As a teenager you're having to. You know, figure out what you're feeling, what deep feelings these are, and articulate them. Right. And straight people don't have to do that. Right. Exactly. So we've sort of had this like, full on experience. We're a bit more evolved. Kind of. I think so. And, and I think, and so I think that's really where it comes from. Right. It's, the anchor, for me, doesn't feel heteronormative. It feels, there is a security about it. Um, and queerness doesn't have to be like, I think sometimes there's this idea that, that queerness has to be like incredibly, like othering or, um, counterculture or mm-hmm You know, actually that there is something inherently like beautiful and queer in commitment and. Being in love and that in itself, you know every day it is a kind of protest of just like, you know Do you tell your post person or your taxi driver that it's your husband or your friend? You know, like we're constantly even though we don't think it we're constantly having to inhabit our queerness And to be radical in our queerness, even though we're boring married I think we still are valid as queer people as well. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for workshopping that with me. Of course, well but also, I think there's this element of like Anchor and safety doesn't mean that you're not also experiencing counterculture in other ways. For sure. Right, and I think, and in a weird way, I think that's sort of where the safety for me comes from, right? It's like, I feel like I can, again, explore can mean whatever it means within the context of your relationship, but, but, there, if you're just dating somebody, saying, I want to break up, and packing your bag, and leaving your home, That's sort of it. Mm-hmm The stakes are sort of lower. Yeah. And I, and that's not to undermine people who are choosing not to get married. That's as is. Just the stakes are lower. There's plenty of things that need to get untangled. Mm-hmm Right. Um, but certainly no. Legal documents have to get signed. Right. Yeah. Um, and I think that's sort of what it was. There was this element of like, neither one of us can just simply up and leave and it be done. Officially. Yeah. Right. So no matter what, there is that sort of like nucleus. Yeah. Also weddings are great fun. And I wanted to write a wedding scene in the book. Yes! Because I just thought that would be fun. I mean, and well, and that's the other fun thing about a queer wedding. We literally gave out Livestrong style bracelets that said, I survived my first gay wedding. Oh, I love that. We had a taco truck was our dinner. Nice. We, you know, it was like, Oh, you know what we did that was fun? We threw the bouquet to all the single men. Oh. And you should have seen it was like a rugby scrum. Like all these guys just like, whoa, jumping for the person who caught it get married? It's funny. Because I think he had, yeah, he had just got divorced, and yeah, he got the bouquet, and actually, yeah, he has done, he's remarried, yeah, he has. What a romantic story! Isn't that sweet? I want to read his story! He was one of the few straight men at the wedding. Oh, and he's straight? Yeah, and he got the bouquet. Well, that was a plot twist I was not expecting. I know, right? Yeah, but to your point, it's just great to be able to, Um, play with tradition in a way that I think straight people can do that, too, of course. But I think if you're straight and you're playing with tradition, you're coming up against the tradition. Whereas for us, we don't have that to come up against, to embrace or reject. We're just like, oh, let's make it new. Yeah. I mean, we literally had. a cabaret performance. Like it was a full on 45 minute show. And we came down the aisle to someone singing Circle of Life from The Lion King. Oh my god. And, and our MC like welcomed everybody and then said like, welcome to your first gay wedding. F. Y. I. at a gay wedding, Anything Goes, and then started singing Anything Goes from the musical Anything Goes. I wish I'd been there. Full blown performance. That's so good. Um, and then, at the very end, to get off of the stage, the conga started. And we like conga lined off of the stage. Wow. Anyway. This is great. It was very fun. Yeah, I'm trying to think back to the wedding in the book, um. I think, yeah, I have some fun with talking about outfits and talking about the, the setting and of course Ari and May's relationship and dynamic. And I think there's, I don't think it was a spoiler to say the Ari somehow slightly, uh, upstage the brides in, um, his outfit is I think that's a very fair statement. Um, okay. I have one last very important question for you. Mm. In the book. And I, and this is something I alluded to inside, inside Scoop. We had dinner before this and I said there was a question for you. Oh yeah, I'm excited. That, that I don't want to tell you ahead of time. Because I want to hear your honest, immediate responses. Okay. In the book, there is a sapphic icons wall calendar. Oh yeah. Who would be in your calendar? Oh, okay. I mean there's so many these days. I know, who's coming up off the top of your head? Okay, Chapel Rome, Billie Eilish, Christine Stewart, Kate Blanchett, Kate Winslet, um, Um. Zero hesitation. Uh, what's her name that's gone out of my head, um, is married to the older woman. Oh, Sarah Paulson. Sarah Paulson. Um, I mean. I can just list 12 lesbians to you right now, but, uh, Yeah, there should probably be some historic ones in there too, like, And maybe just some sort of like, semi saphics, Like a bit of like, Frida Kahlo maybe, like a bit of a Virginia Woolf maybe. But then I don't know how that would work with like Billie Eilish. I don't think it would hang together as a calendar necessarily. Well it becomes like culturally educational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would, there's a market for this. You know, look, if this book doesn't do well, I'm just gonna get into calendar design. I have to tell you, I, every once in a while, I find myself in a greeting card aisle and I start reading these greeting cards. And I think to myself, someone got paid to write this! I know. And it is infuriating. Yeah. You should try reading, this is such a niche reference. The thing you should try and read that made me think that recently is My Daughter is Obsessed with Squishmallows. This is, we are going on such a tangent. Tell me more. Yeah, feel free to cut this, but do you know Sallows are my like sallows are like these like medium-sized little squishy characters. Okay. You will have seen them everywhere. They're in shops across the country. Okay. Like they're huge. But each one has a name and it has a tag on it and you open the tag and it tells you like a bit about the squish marlow's personality, uhhuh, whoever is writing these and it is probably an AI is having a laugh. Because it doesn't make any sense, somebody is really taking the piss. And so my kid is like, what the hell? She buys this thing, she falls in love with it, and it's called Barbara. And it works in a call center. I'm not even joking. Alright, as soon as we're done, I'm googling this. Yeah, and so somebody's really like, hates their job. And has like, literally run out of personalities. One worked in HR. And then I was having to explain to my six year old what HR is. Um Well, so if you have a problem at work Well, honestly, it's like, it's obviously like one, like, bitter queen who's like writing these like squishmallow, um, personalities and is just taking it all out. No, it's too arch and intentional to be an intern. Are, are, were beanie babies a thing in the UK? Yeah, so it basically, the like, journey of like my daughter's obsession has been like Beanie Babies, T. Y. Cuddlies, and then Squishmallows. Okay, well, so Beanie Babies, when I was a kid, or I guess younger. Because they have personalities. Right, they have like the little tag with the name, and then like a little poem that sort of, I think it was a poem. Is that what got you into reading and writing? Yeah, right, it was like, it was like three lines, and it was like a very simple. Um, right, but they were, it was like, you know, purpley the platypus, right? And it was very, no one was named Barbara. That was a missed opportunity. Yeah. I've got to show you this. It's too good. I'm very excited. Um. We've come full circle. I'm obsessed! I'm obsessed! Uh, this has been so lovely. Thank you for reading the book and getting past the first page. I did get past the first page, after I thought long and hard about what getting pickpocketed would feel like and whether or not I would like it. You probably would, I think it's quite, yeah. Depends who was doing the pickpocketing. That's very true, I know. Was he handsome? I imagine it to be a kind of Timothee Chalamet as the other Artful Dodger. Yes, Timothee Chalamet as the Artful Dodger. That's right. That's not a bad cast, is it? It is not. Someone call the movie studios! No, but if it was our waiter at dinner, I would not have been mad about that either. Oh yeah, he was hot. He was very handsome. Um, what else was I just going to say to you? I don't know. But this has been lovely. Thank you so much. so much. And um, it's so nice to be in San Diego and in Warwick's, which is a beautiful bookshop. I know, and I'm just so glad I got to talk to you face to face. Yeah, it's lovely. And get to hug you after this. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Everyone. Hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, and I will see you for our regularly scheduled episode next week by.