0:04

Gays reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gays reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays reading. Hello, and welcome to gays reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And on today's episode, I have Daniel Black talking to me about his new book Isaac song, which is a companion piece to his earlier book. Don't cry for me and my guest gay reader today more accurately. My guest by reader today. His former professional football player, RK Russell, who is a terrific human being, but also shares a bit about his book. The yards between us, both of their bios are in the show notes. You can also watch this conversation over on YouTube, linked to that channel as well as our other social media is in the link tree on our Instagram, and also in the show notes, Instagram, we are at gays reading, and now you can find us on blue sky as well while. While you're clicking on all the things you can also like and subscribe to gays, reading, wherever you get your podcasts. Not only does that help with the algorithm, but you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. Speaking of algorithm and people finding gays, reading as a little indie podcast, it means so much when you share it with your friends. And if you are so inclined to leave a review, wherever you get your podcasts, thank you to those of you who have done so already. Uh, and thank you in advance to those who will take the time to do it. Now. Thank you. Uh, a few shout outs for some books that are coming out today. We had in no particular order, we could be rats by Emily Austin. Uh, Tartufo by Kira Jane Buxton, Northern boy by Hussein. I think they love you by Julian winters. All of those are books that are coming out today that I'm super excited about. And in that paper back out today is good material by Dolly Alderton. Dolly of course, was a gays reading guest. Earlier, uh, earlier this year, I almost said in, oh my, how has it already ended? End of January y'all what is time? but Dolly was a guest on case reading in January of 2024. Hawaii. That feels so long ago. Uh, anyway, thank you all for being here. Thank you for liking and subscribing and doing all the things I hope everyone is, you know, reading and doing whatever you can to distract yourself from the things that we need to be distracting ourselves from right now. And all of that said. Please enjoy my conversations with Daniel Black and art. K Russell.

Daniel Black: 3:01

It's such an honor, man.

Jason Blitman: 3:03

An honor? What are you talking about? Thank you for being here. It's an honor to have you.

Daniel Black: 3:07

Thanks. Thanks.

Jason Blitman: 3:08

Well, Daniel, welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm so happy to have you. How are you

Daniel Black: 3:12

I'm doing great, man. I have no complaints. I'm a professor and this is finals week, so I'm really happy.

Jason Blitman: 3:18

Speaking of. Not to put you on the spot or anything or embarrass you, but I may or may not have read some of your Rate My Professor reviews.

Daniel Black: 3:29

Do you know, I've not seen one ever.

Jason Blitman: 3:31

Okay spoiler alert, they're very good. I was like, do I need to go back to school and take Daniel's classes?

Daniel Black: 3:40

oh my gosh.

Jason Blitman: 3:42

Truly, so many of them were like, this class was life changing, I don't, I wasn't even registered for a class, and I like, needed to go and sit in on a couple of them because I'm obsessed with him. Even if you don't, you have to say hello to him in the hallway because every interaction is gonna be life changing. No pressure, but I'm having a very high expectations of our conversation. I'm gonna, I've, I was like, I'm gonna, I want to be schooled today. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be inspired. I'm sure I will be. Oh my goodness. So it's finals week. I'm very happy for you. That's probably

Daniel Black: 4:23

Yes. Yes, absolutely. To say absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 4:27

And a little behind the scenes. We're recording this. It's a little over a month before the book comes out, so I imagine, have you even done too much for it yet?

Daniel Black: 4:39

the first. This is the first.

Jason Blitman: 4:42

Since I'm your first event, this is a perfect opportunity for you to practice your elevator pitch for Isaac's song. You want to give it a go?

Daniel Black: 4:54

Isaac's Song. Isaac's Song. Isaac's Song is a novel about a black gay young man who, who finds himself in emotional turmoil over his father's recent death. And he cannot for the life of him figure out why his father's passing has him in such distress because he and his dad weren't especially close. He never felt especially emotionally bonded to his father. And yet his death for some reason has really, really wrecked him. The novel is about Isaac trying to figure this out. Isaac going to a therapist who tells Isaac, listen, in order to really understand your past, in order to really understand your history, you've got to really look at the entirety of your life trajectory. You've got to really look at your story. You've got to see how your father fits into it. And he might mean more to you than you think. So Isaac takes her up on that and begins to write his story. From as early as he can remember it in his childhood and he writes up until the very moment and the novel is about what he discovers in terms of how he loves his father, his complicated relationship with his father. The novel is about the ways in which Isaac sees how ideas of manhood, masculinity have evolved in a very, very short period of time between, between the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s. Isaac song is about Isaac learning to love his own difference, learning to see himself as marvelous, learning to see himself as beautiful in some ways beyond his father's capacity to see him. And, and then finally, Isaac song is about the ways in which Isaac does the very spiritual act of mending his relationship with his father across time and space.

Jason Blitman: 6:44

I feel like what you just did was what an overture does for a musical. You get little nuggets of songs, of the music, and so to wet your palate for appreciating the musical. And I feel like you just touched on so many things that I look forward to talking to you about. So that was like a great little overture for our conversation. I Okay, something you didn't say is that it is a companion piece of Don't Cry For Me. It is not a sequel. I want to make that very clear to our listeners. You do not have to have read Don't Cry For Me, but they go hand in hand. In fact, I would say that there is the last quarter of the book almost like, when I say hand in hand, it like literally, you could fold them into each other. And so that book, Don't Cry For Me, do you want to, what's, can you give like a one line about that just so

Daniel Black: 7:36

yes. Don't cry for me, is the story of a dying black man who writes a series of letters, the entire novels, a series of letters to his estranged black gay son, trying to explain to him why he treated him the way he did, why why his family was the way it was, and hoping that his son won't hate him the rest of his life.

Jason Blitman: 7:59

Yeah. Spoiler alert, that son is Isaac. And I was curious to ask you about if there was any amount of autofiction in the book, but I had heard you on another, in another interview, talking about that you had a relatively good relationship with your father.

Daniel Black: 8:19

but I do, I certainly will admit that this, that Don't Cry For Me is autobiographical in many ways. My father and I ended up, I would say, with a decent relationship. Throughout my life my father, I think my father always misunderstood me. I think my father always thought I was strange, always thought I was a little bizarre, to say the least. And sometimes he'd tell me so, right? But the, but the real thing is my father's main goal, you know, he was, he was a Southern black man. My father's main goal is that he wanted me to be a man. He wanted me to be able to take care of myself, right? Whatever else I did, I think was kind of like my own business. That's a big thing was, I want you to be able to work so that you can provide for yourself. After that, it's between you and God, you know.

Jason Blitman: 9:08

Yeah, there's something so interesting that comes up in Isaac's song so much about, for better or for worse, wanting, needing attention from your father. I say your father, I say that to you, Daniel, I say that to me, Jason, I say that to Isaac. What do you think it is about fathers and sons and that sort of, is it this like biological need for attention from your father?

Daniel Black: 9:37

think it's a little more complicated than that. I think most boys subconsciously grow up believing because this culture teaches. That your father is your mirror image. Because of that, what your father thinks of you sets the stage for what you think of you and for what the world will think of you.

Jason Blitman: 10:00

Are there things, obviously you and your father were very different. Are there things where you can look and be like, Oh, here are ways we're mirrored?

Daniel Black: 10:08

Yes. Yes. I love to fish. My father loved to fish.

Jason Blitman: 10:13

Really?

Daniel Black: 10:14

Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 10:16

Do you do the whole thing? Do you

Daniel Black: 10:17

Oh, good Lord. Yes. What are you talking? I really only eat fish I catch.

Jason Blitman: 10:25

Look at you. All right.

Daniel Black: 10:26

I do a fish fry every year.

Jason Blitman: 10:28

I look. I look forward to the invite. I can't wait.

Daniel Black: 10:32

That's one way. Another way actually is my father loved music. My father was not a musician. My father was not a singer at all. And I am both. I'm a both singer and musician. But dad loved music and I'm a music lover.

Jason Blitman: 10:44

Is there a genre of choice

Daniel Black: 10:45

yes, I love gospel music. Yeah, because I love really the music of the church. I love the ways in which Black people in this country have taken turmoil and distress and trauma and translated it into art. And the Black church, the Black church music is one of those venues where one can go and see this unbelievable transmutation. Of of distress into, into art forms that will bring tears to your eye. Right. It's really, it's really, really creative genius, I think. But but not only gospel certainly, but the gospel is probably my, my go to.

Jason Blitman: 11:29

You were about to say another way that you see your image in your

Daniel Black: 11:33

Yes. You'll laugh at this, but it's funny. It's my eyebrows. Dad had these really crazy, bushy eyebrows, right? And all of my siblings, I'm the only one who got them. So when I look in the mirror, I see him.

Jason Blitman: 11:48

Fascinating. Yeah, it's, I, my father is still alive. I haven't talked to him in going on five years. But every so often, there are so many things that I see in myself, literally, metaphorically, emotionally, that remind me so much of him. And for me, the biggest one is my laugh.

Daniel Black: 12:10

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 12:11

this fascinating blessing and a curse, because People love my laugh. I love my laugh. And when you laugh, you feel joy, right? Or typically you're feeling joy, but it also dusts up trauma for myself.

Daniel Black: 12:28

Yes. Yes. Yes. I understand that.

Jason Blitman: 12:30

So it's very

Daniel Black: 12:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 12:32

Yeah. And I think your assessment on fathers and where that attention comes from is certainly apt. And there's this Interesting line, too, between attention and intention.

Daniel Black: 12:44

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 12:45

And again, something that comes up so much in the book is where some of these big feelings are coming from. You were saying your father wanted you to be a man, and that meant taking care of yourself, period. And the rest is whatever. And that was the intention. And so if you can, if we as queer men who might have feelings about our relationships with our fathers can strip away everything and sort of look at the intention, it can, for me at least, helps cope.

Daniel Black: 13:19

I think so. I definitely think so.

Jason Blitman: 13:22

There's a quote from the book that says when a man tries his best, he ought to be at peace. Do you

Daniel Black: 13:28

I absolutely believe that and really that's why I wrote don't cry for me Because what I realized Jason is there are just countless men black white this has nothing to do with race There are countless men who truly truly gave their best to us The problem is that their best was so small, but it was everything they had. We have a hard time conceptualizing this because we came up in a time and in a moment and in a historical context that offered us so much more. You know, when I even think of myself, when I even think of myself as a black man, right, and a black kid in the 70s. My father grew up in the forties, the fifties. Do you know how unbelievably different life was for a black boy in rural South in the forties than it was in the seventies?

Jason Blitman: 14:27

I know that now because I read the book but right.

Daniel Black: 14:31

Metaphorically, my father came to the table. With 3 metaphorically, I needed 5, 000, but he gave me 2 and 96 cents. See, it seems so minuscule, but when you understand that all he had was 3. You see what I mean?

Jason Blitman: 14:54

course. And that, looks at the, and exactly. And part of that goes back to the intention thing, right? Like the intention was there. He gave you almost every single thing he had.

Daniel Black: 15:03

Which means it was enough. It was enough. Now, here's where this gets complicated. Because people say, well then how was it enough if you needed 3, 000? Because the promise of the universe is not that you'll get the 3, 000 from one person. It's that you'll get it and you're supposed to honor all the streams that pour into you to give it to you the error we make I think here in the west and Particularly here in america is we want all the money from mama and daddy And we think they're supposed to give it to us because they conceived us. It is not so it's not true And it's not so

Jason Blitman: 15:48

And it's interesting because I think then Sorry, I'm suddenly treating this like a therapy session. I feel like then we feel the responsibility and the obligation to, To get more than the 3, 000 from around us so that we can share with our parents,

Daniel Black: 16:10

that that's what that's what should end up happening But see the first thing we've got to realize is if your parents gave you the two dollars and 96 cents Those were awesome people. If I had three, if I had three dollars to give somebody two dollars and ninety six cents, baby I love you. Did you hear me? love you. But again, the problem is our assessment of what our parents actually had to give. That's really the issue and I wanted to write this book because I think so many of us really misunderstand and misunderstood and are misunderstanding the capacity of our parents.

Jason Blitman: 16:46

Yeah.

Daniel Black: 16:50

Even terms like queer fluid transgendered. We don't come from men who even heard of those words ever.

Jason Blitman: 16:58

Right.

Daniel Black: 16:59

And then we're asking them not just to embrace, but to celebrate it. We don't really understand if they can simply tolerate it. They really come a long way.

Jason Blitman: 17:08

And it's capacity that they don't

Daniel Black: 17:09

They do not

Jason Blitman: 17:11

So you talk about this is why you wanted to write the book. I'm I have so many questions about the book. I'm curious, first of all, if writing Jacob, the father, in Don't Cry For Me was easier than writing Isaac in Isaac's Song.

Daniel Black: 17:33

know. No, it was not. No, I think writing Jacob, both were, both were very difficult, but for different reasons.

Jason Blitman: 17:44

I will say, I was going to say, I ask because Isaac's Song almost feels so much more personal. writing, not as yourself, because it's obviously not you. There are, as you said, some autobiographical things. But with Don't Cry For Me, you can have a buffer. You can have a little bit of removal. It's definitely not Daniel

Daniel Black: 18:06

Yes, that's right. And part of the thing I was trying to do with Don't Cry For Me is I was trying to limit the, the, the fluidity of vulnerability.

Jason Blitman: 18:17

Mm

Daniel Black: 18:17

generation, they didn't do vulnerability, right? That was very important. But, but kids from Isaac's generation got the invitation into vulnerability. So I was trying to do vulnerability. You know, in terms of constructing Isaac, right? In a way that Jacob would not have relented at all. So, so, so part of the, part of the difficulty in, in describing Jacob is because I, I didn't want Jacob to be I didn't want him to look contemporary, right? In terms of his character and disposition, but I did want him to be fully human. Right? And I wanted people to understand his limitations. I wanted people to understand his capacity. I wanted people to understand his wounds. I wanted people to understand how history has shaped and molded this Black man into something that in many instances, we, as, as Americans, were not yet proud of. But I wanted us to see we should be. Because Jacob did a miraculous thing, right? He did a marvelous thing in that he gave Isaac the tools necessary to be a confident young man within himself. What Jacob did not do was to nurture Isaac's identity. Now that is true, that is absolutely true, but that wasn't Jacob's job. So when I get to Isaac's song, right, what was very, very difficult was to walk Isaac through this notion of Isaac, how do you love and adore and worship and honor your father and tell him the truth about how he hurt you? And, and, and, how do you also Construct your own identity without doing that. In the context of anger, you don't have to, you don't have to be angry at your father's limitations. You don't have to be angry at your, just because you wanted it. You don't have to be angry about that. If you ever understand that you have the right and the responsibility to be something other than what he dreamed, your dream for yourself does not fight him.

Jason Blitman: 20:30

and I said this on an episode recently, I'm the first to say, my dad is not a bad guy, he's a bad dad, and he is, can only do what he is capable of doing. And I, and to your point I needed more than that, right? And my, just because my,

Daniel Black: 20:48

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 20:50

And just because my expectations were different doesn't necessarily

Daniel Black: 20:56

That's right.

Jason Blitman: 20:57

You know it's very complicated.

Daniel Black: 20:59

And he might not have been a bad dad.

Jason Blitman: 21:02

Well, I hear you.

Daniel Black: 21:04

And Jason, I'm with you on this. Let me tell you how I'm in this boat with you, brother. Let me tell you.

Jason Blitman: 21:12

I knew it's so funny. I was telling my husband what the book was about and he was like, what? Nope, that to me is like a book with a dog. I won't read a book with a dog and I won't read a book about a father son relationship.

Daniel Black: 21:29

Oh, okay. He struggles a little too, huh? Yes. And I get it,

Jason Blitman: 21:34

Listen, right. Something in Isaac's song that, is among the many things that Isaac is grappling with is he clocks some moments as he's reflecting on his life where Like his childhood ended.

Daniel Black: 21:52

Yes. Right.

Jason Blitman: 21:54

It was, for Isaac, it was a moment where he needed to parent his mother.

Daniel Black: 21:59

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 22:01

Do you remember those sorts of moments for you?

Daniel Black: 22:05

Maybe one, maybe, maybe one. And yeah, maybe one. And that one, I was maybe 11 or so. I used to, my great grandmother born in the 1890s, lived until I was a senior in high school and I would, I would plant her hair. Right. Because she had arthritis in her hands. And one day my father came into my grandmother's house while I was plaiting her hair and he was distressed and distraught because of course I'm doing hair. And and I remember him being just so upset and very much like in, don't cry for me. He said out loud to me is you going to be a sissy forever? And at that moment, right. I realized. That I was either going to succumb to this man or I was going to be something other than What he thought hoped dreamed I would be I remember that very very well. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:09

And you were like, nope, I'm going to be my

Daniel Black: 23:10

Yeah. I'm gonna be me. Yeah

Jason Blitman: 23:12

And now? I'm

Daniel Black: 23:14

Yes, absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 23:15

At 11 years old.

Daniel Black: 23:17

And I don't know if I thought adult at the time, but I'm

Jason Blitman: 23:20

no, No. But uh,

Daniel Black: 23:21

kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:24

I understand. And it's very much like a feeling. Thank you for sharing that. I in reading the book and in thinking about that moment. for Isaac, and in turn that moment for you made me thinking about, made me think about that moment for me. And upon reflection, I was like, oh, that is when I remember, oh, I'm not a kid anymore. And something else that has come up a lot on this podcast is just the concept of seeing your parents as people.

Daniel Black: 23:53

You're welcome

Jason Blitman: 23:53

It's

Daniel Black: 23:53

It is scary. It is scary. And the thing I think we realize too, Jason, as we get older is, you know, we, we have this subconscious plan as kids that I'm going to be far better than they were. I'm going to treat kids far better than my parents ever treated me. Right. I'm, you know, I'm absolutely, I'll never be like that, you know, in those, and the older we get, the more we become like them. Or the plan

Jason Blitman: 24:24

Kicking and screaming.

Daniel Black: 24:25

yes, yes. And or the more we realize that loving another person perfectly is an imperfect process That we hurt people. We love, we do it just like they did it. We don't do it in the same ways. They did it.

Jason Blitman: 24:42

And we might know how to handle it

Daniel Black: 24:44

right. That's right. That's right.

Jason Blitman: 24:46

But it does still

Daniel Black: 24:47

happen. It absolutely happens. Sometimes it happens unintentionally and sometimes it's just it's, it's because we just weren't doing well that day.

Jason Blitman: 24:55

Yeah. It's interesting because something that Isaac's song is so much about is the responsibility of finishing, perpetuating, moving forward your ancestors stories.

Daniel Black: 25:14

Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 25:15

And I think what we're talking about is part of that, right? We do the same thing as our parents, but we do it a little bit better. And we hope that the next generation does it a little bit

Daniel Black: 25:27

Jason, we hope and we believe we've done it a little bit better.

Jason Blitman: 25:32

Let's say that. We've done it better.

Daniel Black: 25:34

Jason?

Jason Blitman: 25:35

I know, you're right.

Daniel Black: 25:36

It's true. It's not a guarantee we've done it better. And,

Jason Blitman: 25:40

You're right.

Daniel Black: 25:41

and the reason this point is so absolutely critical, Jason, is because one of the things that queer kids often do, not always, but often do, that really is an error, and that is, we take ourselves out of the family lineage. We speak about and sometimes even treat ourselves, ourselves, as pariahs to our own blood inheritance. And what I've discovered, Jason, is this. Daddy might not like me, but he doesn't own the blood. Mama may not care for me, Mama may think I'm going to hell, but she doesn't own the bloodline. Which means I'm, I still get the inheritance of my people, regardless of what my parents think about me. Right? That's really an important point, I think. You know, it's like too many even queer men take themselves out of the running for manhood, right? We know we're men, we got that. But, there are too many gay men who do not see, understand, and present themselves as examples of the manhood our boys should become. And that's a really, really important point. We don't often present ourselves as men. Other little boys, as I hope you become like me when you grow up.

Jason Blitman: 27:07

How would you, if someone were asking how do you do that? How would you, what

Daniel Black: 27:12

I think the first thing is we take nephews and nieces. Right. And we sit them down. Right. Right. And we make sure they know who we are. And we present our lives to them as something they should be proud of. Not we just sneak into, you know, Thanksgiving dinner, eat and go home because nobody here likes me. Hell no. See, then we've given over the entirety of the bloodline to heteronormative people. No. There are queer people in this bloodline too. And because you don't own the blood, These kids. Got to see you and they have to see me, That's, this is so absolutely important. And, and your nieces, nephews, cousins, right? They should absolutely come to your events, things you do, right? Like I'm a writer, of course, right? When I do a book event, all my nieces and nephews are on the front row. Generally, they're helping me sell books. Absolutely. Absolutely. Cause the world's going to be proud of me. Everybody except my own people. No, sir. No, sir. Something's wrong. But sometimes the thing that's wrong is I have taken myself out of the bloodline cause I'm so disturbed that there have been people who don't like me. I don't give one damn. You can dislike me, but it doesn't keep me from being a beautiful, proud, Black man. And the thing I wanted Isaac to discover is just this. Isaac, you're a Swinton brother. You're a Swinton if daddy liked it or if he didn't.

Jason Blitman: 28:45

Yeah, it's interesting though, and there is something to be said, too, about being proud of being a Swinton, but not wanting to be around the other Swintons.

Daniel Black: 28:56

There is something. But see, there is something to that. Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 29:01

And I'm not saying that's Isaac's story. I just, I'm using that

Daniel Black: 29:04

right. But see, also the other piece of this is sometimes we don't, metaphorically, we don't want to be around the other Swintons because of our own insecurity of what the Swintons think about me. And what I'm saying is that is a kind of bondage, right? So what I've discovered is don't you dare skip the family reunion. Hell no. Bring your husband with you

Jason Blitman: 29:26

Sure.

Daniel Black: 29:26

and you come to the family. Hey everybody. How are you? So glad to be here. And they might be whispering as you say, good evening, because what's, what's very important to do as queer people do, I don't care if it's family or not, we're pretty good with the world, but even with family, do not let human beings, even if they share your blood, do not let them set up incarceration for you.

Jason Blitman: 29:55

I on every episode, I also include a conversation with a guest gay reader for a 10 or 15 minute segment at the end of each episode. And Margaret Cho was one of them a few episodes ago. And I went to her standup show, I don't know, two weeks ago, and something, it was right after the election, and she was talking about how, what is so important for queer people to be doing right now, is putting a smile on their face. A younger generation that it does get better, that you can move through. And I think just being a physical representation of joy, of happiness, of life moving on is so important of love.

Daniel Black: 30:40

It's critical. And in a minute, what we're going to get to is queer people's understanding that even in the invisible, when we talk about even religions, God, Jesus, et cetera, in a minute, we're going to understand that Jesus was queer, right? We'll get it shortly. You know, the world's not ready for that one quite yet. And that's really why I think they crucified him. But okay. You know, Jason, I know I'm out there. So I'll leave that alone for now. It's

Jason Blitman: 31:09

cannot. That is not fair. Oh, I can't wait to read that book, Daniel!

Daniel Black: 31:16

coming. It's coming.

Jason Blitman: 31:19

there is, you brought up Jesus there's stuff in the book that comes up about being, not being religious, but appreciating ritual. Why do you think that is?

Daniel Black: 31:35

Because I think as human beings, one of the things we desire more than anything is connection. And I think what ritual does is it connects energy. Right? Between humans, between things, between plants and animals. Ritual. The point of ritual. It's connection. And I think every human on this planet desires connection in one way or another. And I think the more ritual we do, I think the more human we become. And I think it's so vital. I think it's, I think it's absolutely vital that we gather. There's no isolation. Alienation kills

Jason Blitman: 32:17

Yeah.

Daniel Black: 32:18

any person, any person. When a person tries to hide away, thinking that that's going to give them safety and security, you begin to deteriorate. Immediately. I always think about the African proverb. One blade of grass cannot withstand the wind, right? I love that. But a field of grass can, because they're standing together, right? And so, I think, even in Isaac's song, what Isaac has to realize is, because Isaac tries to do this isolation in many ways, right? But it doesn't work, and it's never going to. It's never going to because you know, even metaphorically, if you want to run with it biblically, God was lonely. In fact, that was the whole point of making the world.

Jason Blitman: 33:05

I was just gonna say I'm bored, I'm by myself, I need to create everything

Daniel Black: 33:09

How are you born if you're God? Because there is no replacement for connection. I don't care how much power you have. It's like, I don't care how well you sing. You can never sing harmony.

Jason Blitman: 33:23

right,

Daniel Black: 33:24

It takes another person.

Jason Blitman: 33:26

And if you can, I want to know about it. That is some Guinness World Record something. Right.

Daniel Black: 33:35

you to do it.

Jason Blitman: 33:37

Yeah. What are some of your rituals?

Daniel Black: 33:39

I meet with a group of folks in Atlanta, a mighty and amazing, amazing, amazing group of folks in Atlanta pretty much every week. And, and we do all kinds of rituals. We sing, we blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm a choir director here in Atlanta of the Mighty Voices of Power, the Rise Community Church. And one of our rituals is choir rehearsal every week. Right. And I mean every week, right? It's, it's invigorating. Most, most folks don't want to miss it because it's just so invigorating. It's just, we have so much fun. We have so much fun. One of my other rituals is fishing, right?

Jason Blitman: 34:12

Yes. How often do you go

Daniel Black: 34:14

Oh my God. If I can, I go at least once a week.

Jason Blitman: 34:17

Oh, yeah. What is your, what's your routine with fishing? Is it, do you have your own boat? Are you renting a boat? You sitting on a dock,

Daniel Black: 34:27

sitting on a dock. I have, I have taken a boat out. I have absolutely resisted buying a boat because I have believed that if I had a boat, I'd be fired because I'd be going every day. So I have resisted buying a boat in order to keep my job.

Jason Blitman: 34:43

Yeah. That's very responsible of you.

Daniel Black: 34:45

yes, yes, yes, yes. So I'm I'm, I generally fish from the bank. And I do, I do

Jason Blitman: 34:51

Do you have a hat? Do you have a, do you have do you have a jacket that has like your stuff in it? Yeah. Huh. ha

Daniel Black: 34:56

I wear, I have pads. That's my fishing gear. Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 35:00

Oh my god, I love it. What? I'm not a fisher. I do fish. So I'm very intrigued by this. I can't wait to come to, I've invited

Daniel Black: 35:09

Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 35:09

fry. Ha. No, I'm nowhere near Atlanta. But listen, an invite to a fish fry, maybe it's worth a trip,

Daniel Black: 35:17

for it. Right.

Jason Blitman: 35:17

right?

Daniel Black: 35:18

Right. Right.

Jason Blitman: 35:19

Okay, there's some, this is a ridiculous thing of such a specific thing in the book, but there's a conversation about tea sets and china sets being, like, generations treasures. What's, what did you, what's your treasure? What do you treasure?

Daniel Black: 35:35

Something tangible you mean?

Jason Blitman: 35:37

Let's, for the sake of silver and China, let's say yes. What would you leave to, what would you tangibly leave to your next generation?

Daniel Black: 35:53

First draft written manuscripts of my novel. Cause they're printed out, I have them all. And I feel like it would show my nephews, nieces, whoever would get it. It would show the unbelievable hours and level of work and mental. labor that I expended in my attempt to change the world.

Jason Blitman: 36:19

What made you want to change the world?

Daniel Black: 36:26

As a kid, I realized that my parents limitation, in terms of their ability to love me completely, was not there. That they were representing a the limitation, The, of the state, the wor the of the country, of the world in which we live. In other words, it was not true that the rest of the world adored me, but, but my parents struggled. That was not true. The whole world struggled, right? In terms of loving me and embracing me. People were kind to me. Now, that's, people were nice to me. People were not affirming of the possibilities of me though, right? Again, people were very nice to me as a kid. But people made very clear to me. That if I was that way,

Jason Blitman: 37:17

and

Daniel Black: 37:19

did not approve, which means I want to change the world because I wanted to see if could we make a world where God did approve.

Jason Blitman: 37:25

so

Daniel Black: 37:27

Right. Was there the possibility of a space somewhere in the universe or in my imagination

Jason Blitman: 37:33

to

Daniel Black: 37:35

I wouldn't have to become something else in order to be a door? Right. And and so I got busy with this notion of how do you change consciousness? And so I began to write short stories, even as a, you know, in junior high, high school. And I wanted to change consciousness. I wanted, I wanted to shift people's idea of what is beautiful. I wanted to shift people's notion of who they could love, who they had the capacity to love. I wanted to shift ideas of who could be God, who could look like God, who could emulate God, who could represent God, who could speak for God, you know? And so yes, yes. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's and that's my my prayer Is that the book will disturb people's notion of who gets to speak for God? I mean, you know, we've had this text called Bible for hundreds and hundreds of years I'm not so much mad at that, but God's never said anything else. I Mean, you know really and and I'm considering the possibility that God has said something else to some other people.

Jason Blitman: 38:41

But it's still, being difficult in your childhood. There is a, the character Jessica in Isaac's song, she really sees Isaac. Did you have a Jessica? Do you have a Jessica?

Daniel Black: 38:55

yes, I did. Actually, when I was in high school, I had a dear, dear, dear friend. I have a different and I feel like she really knew me. She really saw me. She really understood me. You know, she knew who I was. I would tell all of my struggles and my troubles to her. She, you know, we'd walk through it, talk about it. She was just such a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful person. So I definitely had a Jessica.

Jason Blitman: 39:19

Yeah. We all we need our

Daniel Black: 39:21

We do.

Jason Blitman: 39:22

and our

Daniel Black: 39:22

That's right. That's right.

Jason Blitman: 39:25

the Jessicas out in the world.

Daniel Black: 39:27

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 39:28

There's so much that I could still talk to you about the book. Something in particular about, memory and how Maybe it's a little misrepresented in your mind, and there's a great quote that of course I think has become common these days. History isn't what happened, it is how we remember what happened. And I think it's a nice, cold quote. Bucket of water to your face, reminding you that very specifically. It's about what

Daniel Black: 39:59

That's right. And memory is not at all facts. No, it's, it's feeling.

Jason Blitman: 40:05

no.

Daniel Black: 40:06

Yeah. And to represent memory as this is what happened is always incorrect. It's just always incorrect. Right. And when one tries to weaponize memory, to force someone else to agree about what you did to me and how you treated me, right. Really, what a person is really doing is trying to exact vengeance upon this person because you can't ever prove memory. No

Jason Blitman: 40:41

and it's tricky too, because even if there is a court stenographer following you around everywhere you go, they're not catching

Daniel Black: 40:49

no, no. And even in the court, somebody say something, strike that from the record. You can't strike it from their mind. But

Jason Blitman: 40:56

We just learned all of these facts, but the jury's not allowed to consider that when they meet. It's but we know

Daniel Black: 41:03

and the jury is supposed to not even remember it. How do you take something out of somebody's head?

Jason Blitman: 41:09

it's there. It's still there. Yeah.

Daniel Black: 41:12

jury will disregard. Oh, wow.

Jason Blitman: 41:16

We will, but it's still tucked in there. Don't worry, there's no such thing as, unconscious bias. There is a great quote about the how there is a spiritual ecstasy when you know you've done something awesome. Other than writing and publishing your books, when have you experienced that?

Daniel Black: 41:39

Oh, wow. There are certain times when my choir sings and the harmony is perfect. And I've experienced that. There are times in the mentoring process here in Atlanta, when I'll see a person's transformation, and it is just absolutely the most glorious thing Just the most glorious thing to see. And then third, there are times when I'm talking to a child, and I can talk a child past their pain or past their difficulty, their struggle, and, and can get them to physically even look in a mirror and to consider the possibility of their beauty or their divinity. That's a, it's one of those moments too. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 42:22

Yeah. I love that. What's bringing you joy these days? Besides fishing? Besides choir? Obviously those are the things that bring you joy. But on the, what else? What else is happening? I want to talk to you about fun things,

Daniel Black: 42:36

But those are fun

Jason Blitman: 42:37

fun but we've had some heavy conversations. I know, but we've talked about those already.

Daniel Black: 42:43

bringing me joy these days? Oh my God.

Jason Blitman: 42:45

Yeah.

Daniel Black: 42:47

Well, it's spring semester meeting, right? Doing a new class that I'm excited about. about. Oh my God. I've never taught it before called slave rebellion that I'm super excited about. Yes. An entire semester of just slave rebellions all throughout the diaspora in America, in, in, in Haiti, in the Caribbean, just an examination of how African people, practically from the day they arrived to the, to the day of slavery officially ended. Constructed these revolts and these rebellions to construct and try to force their own freedom. There's these unbelievable, unbelievable stories. And of course, there were hundreds of slave rebellions. Of course, schools don't teach this. And of course, Jason, you know, we don't need to talk about that. But and quite frankly, I think white kids need to know this too.

Jason Blitman: 43:38

Yes.

Daniel Black: 43:39

people doing it. But I think white people, white kids need to do it because white children, they're, they're part of this inheritance because if folks were fighting are being fought against. See, this is really an American inheritance. I always tell people, you know, we talk about a slave ship, somebody was driving it and somebody was bound below deck. So two people are main characters in this story, but okay. So I'm really, really, really, really Jason excited about this, about that class. That'll be examination of Nat Turner and Denmark, BC and Gabriel process, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm teaching another new class in the spring called black visual art that looked at the history. images in canvas art that I think is going to be really, really, really, really, really exciting.

Jason Blitman: 44:31

Um, Daniel, I could sit here and talk to you all day.

Daniel Black: 44:35

Oh man. So much fun.

Jason Blitman: 44:38

So much fun. Your spirit and your joy and your passion is very palpable and comes right through the computer screen and I deeply appreciate it. Thank you for sharing Isaac's song with the world.

Daniel Black: 44:54

I'm so excited. And thank you for having me on. And thank you for talking about this book. And I really, really, really am great. Grateful. For this space, because those of us who came to the world differently packaged must be clear that we have to fight for, and we have to insist upon, right? And we have to command and demand space wherein we speak and we talk, not in reaction to somebody else's hatred, but because if we don't talk some of what God thinks will never get spoken,

Jason Blitman: 45:26

Killing me over here. I have so many notes that I need to take.

Daniel Black: 45:30

Oh, man.

Jason Blitman: 45:32

And again, you don't have to go read your rate my professor

Daniel Black: 45:34

Ah!

Jason Blitman: 45:35

but listen, you should pull some of them for your website. They're very good.

Daniel Black: 45:42

now I'm gonna look. I think I was scared to look, baby Jason.

Jason Blitman: 45:46

It made me intimidated to talk to you today.

Daniel Black: 45:48

gosh. Cut it out, man. Cut it out. Man, this has been so fun, man.

Jason Blitman: 45:53

This has been so fun. Welcome to today's guest Gay Reader. You might know him from shockingly the football field. I'll tell you why I say shockingly in a moment. You might know him from, as I just learned, his incredible shoe collection. Or from his book, The Yards Between Us, the one and only R. K. Russell. Welcome to Gay's Reading.

RK Russell: 46:15

Hello. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited to turn this edition into Bayh's reading, period.

Jason Blitman: 46:22

Yes, I know. I was actually just having a conversation with, I think it's the episode that airs today with my friend Brad, who he was talking about the word queer and people have given him a hard time about using the word queer. And I say that, or I've said that. I really see that as the lgbtqia plus. puddle, the stew that is queer. And I said that really I should be calling these guests queer readers, but I use gay as a term of endearment for all of the people. But you are a hundred percent. This is, we are all inclusive here.

RK Russell: 46:59

Of course, for me, I was just like, cute, special edition, Bayh's reading, boom,

Jason Blitman: 47:02

Yes. Okay, the reason why I said surprisingly on the football field. I, my biggest confession of the moment, I've never ever been to a football game.

RK Russell: 47:13

No

Jason Blitman: 47:15

Professional, Little League, or anything in between. I've never been to,

RK Russell: 47:21

like even a high school like ketchup, okay

Jason Blitman: 47:24

zero. I've never even watched, the most I've, the closest I've come to a football game is like the episode of Friends where they play it in the, on the field. That's it.

RK Russell: 47:39

I, this is what I say to people who are like, bogged down for whatever reason. There are people who have real trauma around the reason they're disconnected from sports. And there are people who are just like, it's not my judge, I just never got into it. I will say to go to a football game, especially like an NFL level football game, regardless of how you feel about the sport, is an experience that I feel like everyone should have.

Jason Blitman: 48:00

I'm, let me be very clear. I am not anti attending a game. I just have not. I've been to baseball games. I've been to hockey game. I love a hockey game. I've been to basketball games. But yeah,

RK Russell: 48:12

We have to go. Now I'm like, we have to go.

Jason Blitman: 48:15

Is there like a gay night? We should go.

RK Russell: 48:18

is there one here? I don't know if there's one in LA. Yeah, I think they do a Pride Night here. Definitely in San Fran, so we could do either. I'm down. I'm down. But it's a great experience. Like I said, the energy, the culture, the yeah. Everybody,

Jason Blitman: 48:32

As long as you're, as long as you're okay leaning over explaining the rules to me or explaining how things are, what's happening as we're going, I'm happy to go.

RK Russell: 48:42

When I met my partner, he knew nothing about football or he knew a little bit. He always says he knows nothing. He knew a little bit, but he wasn't like in it. And just recently, like we've actually had a conversation. We've been together for five years now. We have a conversation. He's you've never actually taught me. Like football and I was like, Oh, I didn't know you really wanted to know. I thought you just wanted to know, like when to cheer and like, when to like, boo, like just the very, the simple things to get by, but like now this one, we've been to like two super bowls, like they do a few games together and it just dawned on me. I was like, Oh, I've never taught him. So I feel like I've failed him as a partner. So then I started explaining it to him. He's okay, that's a lot.

Jason Blitman: 49:20

Huh. That's the other thing, it's like as soon as I started to try to learn rules, I was like, wait. There's a, now it's what? And yard what? Touch? A tackle? I know some of the key words.

RK Russell: 49:31

Love that. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like, how much do you need to know to enjoy? That's where I'm at with my education on football. I'm like, how much do you need to know to enjoy it?

Jason Blitman: 49:40

I think I love rooting for something. So if, I don't even care if a team is good I just need to know who am I, who are we rooting for? And who are we booing for? And then, I'll have a good time.

RK Russell: 49:53

That's the best part about sports. The belongingness of it, right? It's We're all on a team, regardless of whether we just fought, regardless of whether I know you or not, it's you're wearing that jersey, I'm wearing this jersey, we're rooting for the same people high five, chest bump, let's do it.

Jason Blitman: 50:06

There's a really cute video that I've seen on Instagram before of something happens at a sports event, and there's like a father son sitting next to each other, and the crowd like goes wild and the kid starts to cheer, but the dad is clearly upset, and the kid like goes from cheering to being upset to match his dad. It's so sweet. But I know that was not a pastime of mine. Anyway. Enough about football. Back to shoes.

RK Russell: 50:37

Period.

Jason Blitman: 50:38

Okay, there is this, let's say now famous ESPN video that you did. There's something very specific that I am obsessed with, and that is in describing yourself, the second thing you call yourself is a damn good writer. Tell me more! How did the writing, how did R. K. Russell writer come to be?

RK Russell: 51:03

Oh my gosh that's a great question. Writing for, Most of my young life, I thought was something everyone did I was under the impression we all had journals or we all were documenting. events or feelings in some way or form. I guess it's also just being in school and every course having something to do with writing, like an essay portion or some type of written portion, even like math had like word problems. So I was under the impression we all were like writers. Like we all wrote I thought this was no special thing. Unfortunately I lost my father, like my stepfather, who was raised, helping raise me very young. And I remember sitting down and being like the first piece of. Like poetry or like pros that I wrote was like a letter to God after that moment of like why this was happening and what this meant. I was also like six, seven at the time. So I didn't even understand really. The concept of like death and like the finality of it and I remember after writing it, like I had, I got no answers, like nothing really had changed, but I, the way I felt had changed and I understood a little bit more of like my grief, which I didn't have that word at that time, but I understood that a little bit more and just like how to move through the world carrying that. So from that moment on. I knew that writing was like, very therapeutic, and very much personal. So I also, I was also going through a world thinking like, we all write. And then I was also going through a world writing and not telling anyone. I was like, this is all like, very deep dark, like diary, under lock and key type vibe. It wasn't until college where I realized like, writing was even like, a course. I was like, oh, people are like, studying writing, and going to school for it. But by then I was already playing football. So football is like a full time commitment. I was like, this is what I'm going to do afterwards. I'm going to play a long time and retire and have a wife and kids and maybe write a book. Maybe not. So writing was very much a personal journey. It wasn't until I came to L. A. literally in 20 18, 2019 when I started like sharing my writing and people were like, Oh, this is good. I was like, Oh, okay, if you say so, I was like, if you say so and yeah, the coming to like coming out in 2019, there was like a whole video, like TV journalism segment and like all of these things. And all of the press that happened afterwards. But even leading up to that moment, I was like, I want to write. I want to write a letter and a coming out letter and really take this moment. Because it was also, one, it was therapeutic. One, it was how I best understood myself. Three, to me, it became my truest form of communication. I had never felt any discrimination sitting down with a pen and paper. I had never felt any type of hate or big cheer. Those limits that society puts on us and the limits that just sitting and talking to someone puts on us. There's so many times where we sit and I have a conversation with someone and it's really great, and then I leave and I'm like, oh fuck, I forgot to say A, B, and C. Where it's you have time. You can put it down, you can come back, you can be like, oh, that's a great idea. Chop chop. So I did that, and that was like my first initial coming out moment was like that letter. And it also is what led to the book. It's what had my, my literary agent now Sarah Bowens at Avidus, reach out to me about writing a book and like that powerful moment of a letter and Hey, what if this is not just a moment, but something where you could really walk people through a whole lifetime with. Finding out who you are, loving who you are, unlearning things about who you are, and coming out and owning that. Writing's always been a part of my life. Sharing it has become more a part of my life.

Jason Blitman: 54:09

Yeah.

RK Russell: 54:10

really where the beauty comes from.

Jason Blitman: 54:11

It's not uncommon for writers to start out as readers. I have to ask, of course, you're my guest gay bi reader, what are you reading?

RK Russell: 54:21

I actually decided to go back through a historically and critically acclaimed book, The Yards Between. Could you imagine? Could you imagine? I was like, I'm reading

Jason Blitman: 54:29

As he holds up his own

RK Russell: 54:30

Yeah, I'm like, trust me, there's 10 here that I should have sent to people. No, I'm reading The Prophets

Jason Blitman: 54:37

Oh!

RK Russell: 54:37

Jr. My first time ever reading The Prophets, my first time, my first book by this author who actually. Do love and have started to communicate with and hopefully start a friendship with. So I was like, I need to dive into this book and I'm only like, we like a hundred in. But I am fully captivated. Anything queer, anything black, anything this vivid and raw also as well, I love, I'm excited to see the journey that, that I go on.

Jason Blitman: 55:05

Fun! Were you always a reader?

RK Russell: 55:07

Yes and no. I feel like reading for me very young was very school based, like it was like read to kill a mockingbird and we would be like reading out loud in the class and everybody would like, look at me when the N word came up and I'm like, this doesn't feel good.

Jason Blitman: 55:22

Yeah.

RK Russell: 55:23

I don't want to do this. It wasn't until college when I started. Doing my own research into writers where I found James Baldwin and where I found Maya Angelou and like, these people of color and these creatives that really spoke outside of the framework of just what my understanding of what literature was. And outside of the framework of just the heteronormative, straight, white society that I also had grown up in. And also the masculine world of sports and football. There was times where I physically could not get up to do anything else after a practice or a game. But I could always grab a book and turn a page. That was very simple and very easy. So it wasn't until college where I really got into reading for me.

Jason Blitman: 56:02

That's awesome. It was only a couple of years ago that I got into reading for me, so I fully understand. I and I, and it's interesting because it's not for better or for worse, stereotypically you think football player, early thirties, sports, shoes, those are the important things in his life. And suddenly you're also like, oh, I'm a hundred pages into The Prophets, which is like. a huge book in the fiction world in the last few years. So it's it, this is part of why I'm doing this series because it's fun to talk to people who you don't necessarily equate books or reading with. We're like, yeah, I'm a reader. Hello. It's

RK Russell: 56:37

Yeah, I love it. I love that moment of shock. Even just with, like, how I present and how masculine I can appear from afar and then telling people oh yeah, I'm bisexual. Or I love drag race. Or, like, all of these things that don't go into what people's small framework of what they think a six foot five black NFL player. Would be into and I'm like, we're also multifaceted and like phenomenal human beings and like creatures and souls and spirits. Why not? Like, why wouldn't I be into it? These are also like great thing. Like the prophets is an amazing book. Rupaul's Drag Race is for better or worse, a pretty good TV show.

Jason Blitman: 57:09

I'm just like imagining you in front of your TV, polishing your shoes, watching Drag Race.

RK Russell: 57:15

Full on talking to the TV too. Like full on talking to the girls. Throwing a little light shade when necessary. But always with love and support.

Jason Blitman: 57:24

So, Light Shade, we are, we're readers, we're reading. Is there anything that you need to, a grievance you need to air? Anything you have to read? This is a time, it's a safe space for you.

RK Russell: 57:37

This is the thing. I have The public persona. That I uphold and that I Do very well because it very much aligns with me. But also. There are times when things just get on my nerves and you need to be able to air those though. Current one I think with the new year is just not like it's the new year. Everyone's got their resolutions. Everyone's manifesting what they want from the year. There also are a lot of new people in the gyms and in fitness. I am someone who is like. Been now in fitness through sports, like the majority of my life. And I love like seeing other people get into that. I love seeing people feel good about like how they feel, what they're doing, how their body not only looks, but performs for them. Like our bodies being the vessel for our souls. I feel like it's very important to give our body love and appreciation for just like. Holding all that is us or at least attempting to so I hate when then there are like fitness people and like these fitness influencers who have built a platform off supposedly helping people who then come January want to talk junk on all the people who are like trying to better their lives and their body like. I don't understand it. It's a disconnect for me. Why does someone else bettering their life make you so upset? Do you really need that machine right now? Are you really that peeved that someone else is maybe using a squat rack or a pull down machine? Like when you were just here to take selfies anyway, when you were just going to take your little Ozempie

Jason Blitman: 59:00

That's the shade. That's the shade.

RK Russell: 59:03

Anyway, I'm just like, What is, I don't get it. I don't understand. Come at a different time if you have that ability. Or, a lot of these people what they're doing isn't affecting you. You're really, or you're on the internet trying to get clicks, or trying to be fun and cute, and you think other people agree with this, and it's very high school, it's very pick me. Not cute. It's not becoming, it's not attractive and I don't think it's what like gym culture or whatever that is. I don't think that's what it's about. So that's my agreement.

Jason Blitman: 59:29

Weight machines and stuff intimidate me. So I like stick to my elliptical and I like let the,

RK Russell: 59:34

There's a lot. I've been in gyms since I was like, what, since I was like 13 now? And there are some, I walk into some gyms and see some people like, what is this? I'm like, how do you put this here and then do, I'm like, girl, this sounds like an injury waiting to happen.

Jason Blitman: 59:48

There are some machines that have like little. little instructions and like little drawings of the people and how you're supposed to do things. I'm like, that's what I need. I need a little

RK Russell: 59:57

need to see a human being do this. I need to see a human being do this. Cause this drawing, this way he's bending and the way he puts his leg here, I'm like I don't know if this is actually functional. I don't know if this is actually Not only do I need to see a human being do this, I need to see how you walk after you get off this. Are you sore or are you hurt? Cause there are so many scenes out here where I'm like I swear every time I do this hurts me. I'm also just not the regular framework of a human being, so There are some machines I literally don't fit. They love that, that like pelvic thrust machine. Before you do it with a bar, and you get on the floor and you do your thing. Now there's a machine, I'm like, bitch, I don't fit in there. You would have to fold me like a lawn chair, and I still don't fit in there. I'm supposed to be thrusting with my hips, I'm like thrusting with my upper back. I like, feel like my sciatic nerve, all types of craziness,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:41

No, that's not good.

RK Russell: 1:00:43

but I say this to say this, anyone who's trying to better their life in any way you need to be encouraging that person because also encouraging them will only also encourage you like there's times I see, especially hiking. I love hiking. That's one of my things. It's one of the reasons I fell in love with LA. There's times I'll be on a hike and I'll be dying. I'm like, this incline has been 20 minutes and I don't know when it's going to break. And I will see like an older person with two walking sticks coming down, like full on like speed trotting down. I'm like, That encouraged me. I'm like, if this person who's clearly older than me who is taking care of themselves and put in the work has reached the top of where I'm struggling to get to, I'm like, that's encouragement

Jason Blitman: 1:01:21

Yeah.

RK Russell: 1:01:22

propels me forward.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:23

Okay, before I let you go, you have to tell the people what is your book about, The Yards Between Us. What's like your logline.

RK Russell: 1:01:31

My book, the arts, it does say a memoir of life, love and football. It is in that order. I do believe that we need to want to take care of ourselves in our life before we can pour into others before we can be there for others. I think love is central to everything that we do, whether it be love for a sport, love for other people, prioritize love for yourself. That is the root cause of all light, joy, happiness community. In this world to me and then football because I do believe as a queer person as well as a bisexual man as a man of color sports is something that's so beautiful for the communities that truly needed as well. I think the cultural sport has taken away something so precious. When in terms of community, in terms of family, in terms of building character celebrating your wins, fighting and growing your strength. Overcoming obstacles. These are all things that communities, especially communities of color, especially the LGBTQ plus community could use now more than ever. It can be hard enough growing up queer in this world, imagine if you, no matter how the world views you, you walk into that locker room and you're in there with 53 brothers and sisters, 53 siblings, 53 people who support you and love you and just want the best for you and that share a common goal with you, regardless of having differences outside of that locker room. Sports is a beautiful thing. My book, The Arts Between Us, details all that, details my journey through finding these moments and these discoveries and these realizations, and also finding myself.'cause we all come into this world with, no roadmap on how to be us. These unique versions of us and this unique spirit that we are. And we have to figure it out and we continue to figure it out. That's the journey.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:03

Yes. Love. Everyone, go get your copy of The Arts Between Us. I'm sure, do you read the audiobook?

RK Russell: 1:03:10

I do. Yeah, that was sure. It was the one of, second to writing it, one of the hardest things I had to do in, in, in my life. Read back through and relive and try to emote my producers in my ear. Okay there's a tissue next to you. You have about three minutes for break if you need it, but we have to get this chapter done. I'm like, you're right, sis. You're right. Let me get it together. But yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:35

Um, RK Russell, thank you so much for being here.

RK Russell: 1:03:39

for having me. And we're going to a football game and buying sneakers.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:42

I can't wait. And buying sneakers. And you're going to show me how to do something very cool at the

RK Russell: 1:03:47

Yes, I would love that. That'd be fun. Or we'll show each other, because half that stuff I don't know either.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:53

Yes.

1:03:54

Thank you, Daniel. Thank you RK for being here on gays, reading everybody. Go check out. Isaac Sohn, go check out the yards between us. And, uh, have a wonderful rest of your day. See you next week. Bye.