0:04

Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Music Hello, and welcome to Gaze Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blipman, and I am so tired. I am fresh off an amazing weekend at the Palm Springs Readers Festival. I had some really terrific conversations and I'm so excited to share a couple of those with you here on Gaze Reading. Over the next couple of days, I will be posting these live recordings. Uh, to the feed so you can hear my conversations with author Sarah Sligar, where we talk about her book, Vantage Point, and with the author Ruben Reyes, Jr. talking about his, short story collection, There Is a Rio Grande in Heaven. If you were there, please let me know. Thank you for, saying hello, for joining us at this very special event. And, uh, if you weren't there, maybe you can come out to Palm Springs next year. I want to just do a quick reminder, you can like, subscribe, rate, review, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Gaze Reading on social media. We are on Instagram, at Gaze Reading, and on Blue Sky. Links to the social profiles, are in the show notes and also in the link tree on Instagram. You can also watch this episode over on YouTube, link to that also in the link tree. A few books coming out today we have Mazel Tov by Eli Zuzofsky. We have Loka by Alejandro Heredia, which I talked about Loka in my conversation with the folks on the Book Riot podcast. also Edgar Gomez's Alligator Tears. That is a memoir in essays that I have not had a chance to read yet, but I'm very much looking forward to, and today, I am thrilled to welcome Jennifer Finney Boylan, true literary icon, trans icon. You do not want to miss our conversation. She talks to me about her book, Cleavage. And then today's guest gay reader is the delightful Julian Winters, alright, hope you're all great. Enjoy this episode.

Jason Blitman: 2:32

Jennifer Finney Boylan here to talk to me about Kalevage. Welcome to Kay's Reading.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 2:39

how are you?

Jason Blitman: 2:40

I am so good. I like, need to, we need to start with some rapid fire questions that came out of the book for me before we like dive into the meat and potatoes of it,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 2:54

like doing the rapid fire first. That's

Jason Blitman: 2:57

I just I need to make sure these get covered. First and

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 2:59

let's do it.

Jason Blitman: 3:00

have you seen the photo of Meg Ryan and Billy Crystal reuniting right now?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 3:08

No.

Jason Blitman: 3:09

On the internet. They posted something like two or three days ago saying get excited for a, special reunion.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 3:18

What are they gonna do?

Jason Blitman: 3:20

I don't know, but there's got to be some When Harry Met Sally something going on, and I needed to make sure this was on your radar.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 3:26

It's on my radar.

Jason Blitman: 3:28

Okay, great. is, it actually sauna?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 3:34

Oh my god, but this is gonna be difficult Yeah that's what my cousin says and she you know says she hangs out among a group of are they Finns? They're they're Scandinavian. So they say sauna, but I don't

Jason Blitman: 3:49

That might be their accent, but Sauna.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 3:53

It just doesn't sit well with me.

Jason Blitman: 3:55

But it is spelled that way, and sa but sauna, I guess it could be either or. If you're listening, please write in. Hello at ksreading. com.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 4:04

Yes. If you, especially if you are Finnish,

Jason Blitman: 4:07

Huh. Icelandic, maybe?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 4:09

word for Fin, a Finlander? If you are a Fin, yeah, let us know.

Jason Blitman: 4:16

that really jumped out at me, and my life was changed. Do you love key lime pie?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 4:21

I do love key lime pie. Absolutely. Especially with the graham cracker crust.

Jason Blitman: 4:24

Yes, is there a place that you, is like a must go that you'd highly recommend?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 4:29

Not so much in the state of Maine, because,

Jason Blitman: 4:31

No, but in all of your travels, you've been everywhere. Where did the people need to go? These are the important questions.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 4:39

Yeah I'm gonna say like a Four Seasons somewhere in in on the Gulf Coast. Or, yeah, or maybe I used to go to Sanibel, Island near Fort Myers. They, I've never been to the Keys I can't, I think

Jason Blitman: 4:52

Outside of the keys. Sure,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 4:53

yeah

Jason Blitman: 4:54

Okay, there's, I was talking about this with somebody else on a recent Gaze Reading episode, but there's a place in, Red Hook, Brooklyn. It's called like, the Key Lime Pie Shack or something. Um, I think they have KeyLimePie. com or KeyLime. com. And it's great. So if you find yourself in Red Hook, Brooklyn,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 5:12

On the way back from a day in New York City yesterday with my dear friend, Mr. Timothy Kreider. Back there. Tim wave. There you go. There he is. We We spent the day at the Met and on the way home managed to pull into the Hungarian pastry shop for a little carrot cake.

Jason Blitman: 5:31

I accidentally do that all the time.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 5:33

Yeah. You accidentally do that

Jason Blitman: 5:36

I just stumble into the bakeries. Whoops!

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 5:38

Yep. Oh, look what happened. And last night We watched a couple episodes of Twin Peaks and, then ate the carrot cake and it was fantastic.

Jason Blitman: 5:49

Interesting. The episode of Twin Peaks or the carrot cake?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 5:54

Both, in fact. In fact.

Jason Blitman: 5:56

If you love carrot cake, next time you're in New York City, there's a place in Washington Heights called Carrot Top Pastries. Their carrot cake is out of control, they have carrot muffins that are out of control, and they have rug a la that is out of control.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 6:14

That is also carrot cake based, ruggala?

Jason Blitman: 6:17

No. Regular rug a la.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 6:18

Okay. regular,

Jason Blitman: 6:19

Unrelated! But delicious. These are my PSAs for you Okay. This is among my more important questions. Have you had A middle of the night harpsichord emergency.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 6:34

Well, That's a good question. Not a harpsichord emergency. Occasionally I'll need to play the piano in the middle of the night. Um, But not very much. You know, I, I um,

Jason Blitman: 6:45

Tell me more. What has been your middle of the night piano playing

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 6:49

You know, well, What often happens is I'll wake up, I had these amazing dreams. And from one of my dreams came the whole idea for the book I wrote with Jodi Picoult, Mad Honey. Literally, I woke up from this dream and posted the dream on Twitter back in the day, back when you could go on Twitter without Hating the world. And yeah, she saw it and she said, what was this dream about? And I said, in the dream, I was co writing a book with you about this, that, and the other thing. And she was like okay, let's do that. So that's literally how that. And just last week I had another idea. we were in the Turks And Caicos, my wife and I, for some just, we were on Parrot Key. Just this kind of fabulous mid January vacation. And one night I had this dream for this kind of demented book. This demented horror book. Which I'm absolutely gonna write. I'm thinking I'm gonna re write this book simultaneously with my next one. And it's a commercial horror book. I'll tell you the I'll give you the title, which is meant to be horrifying. The title is called, Sweet Tooth.

Jason Blitman: 7:57

Post bakery.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 8:00

Sweet Tooth. So anyway

Jason Blitman: 8:02

What does it have to do with middle of the night piano?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 8:04

Sometimes if I wake up in the middle of the night, what I have is a song in my head and I have to play that. I'll play that song on the piano and record the song. and usually there's one or two uh, lines from the song. Occasionally a whole song will come to me. And I'll sit down at the piano and I'll play the song. I had this dream one time I had this dream. Okay. Ready? The dream was there was a haunted castle. And. In the haunted castle there was this song going in the haunted castle like in like the haunted castle in Disney World, the, that, that song that goes, but there was the song going, It, everybody in the castle, it was like people who were, it Basically trapped because of who they were in the world. There were transgender people, there were gay people, there were people of color, there were immigrants. It was everybody who's now in the crosshairs. And we're all in this castle, and we're all trying to get ourselves free, somehow. And then, They wheeled in this thing and it was Mr. Rogers in an iron lung. And this was this was my song. You want to hear the song? I'll play it for you. Yeah, come on. Let's come over here to the

Jason Blitman: 9:11

one of my least favorite things is being in a room with a piano with someone who knows how to play it and it doesn't get played. So this is a fantasy come true.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 9:19

In my mind, I'm going to Transylvania. Bats are hanging down from every tree. It's a lot like Scranton. What's that court? Scranton, Pennsylvania. Everybody's trying to get free. Mr. Rogers in an iron lung. Wait, how's it go? In an iron lung, sings a song that nobody else has sung. In my mind I'm going to Transylvania. Everybody's trying to get free. So, I wish I'd known I was going to play that. I would have rehearsed it so that I knew all the chords. But yeah, that's basically how that goes. In my mind, I'm going to Transylvania.

Jason Blitman: 10:24

I'm

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 10:25

wake up in the middle of the night. That's my middle of the night harpsichord emergency. Aren't you glad you asked?

Jason Blitman: 10:29

I'm so glad I asked. Are you kidding? Thank you for playing that. Uh,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 10:36

Played that song for quite a while, but

Jason Blitman: 10:38

I'm very thrilled. I'm honored that this is a time that you've done it.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 10:42

yes, here we are.

Jason Blitman: 10:43

For context, all of these questions are pulled directly from my experience reading Cleavage. So you were just talking about Music Music is clearly very important to you in your life. In fact, there's a point in the book where it comes up that some sort of music was always playing in your house.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 11:02

yeah, that's one of my children's memories of growing up. There's always music. Also dog hair all over everything.

Jason Blitman: 11:09

What? What was, what sort of music was on your

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 11:13

let's see. in the Mornings I listen to classical music. In New York I'll listen to WQXR. in Maine I'll listen to Maine Public Classical. So I like to begin the day with classical. Midday I'll switch over to jazz, preferably bebop. Or maybe like Bill Evans, some straight up like Piano jazz. In the evenings, Old time rock and roll, pardon the expression, the Grateful Dead and jam bands, if I'm in the car maybe Bluegrass but essentially anything except for anything that anyone would ever have heard of. That's the one, the, if it's pop, if it's pop music that's popular right now that's the only thing I would say no, we're not going to listen to that, sorry. Yeah, I know, and that's, and I'm afraid for some of our listeners here at the Gay's. Reading podcast. It's gonna be a little, it's a little disappointing that our hero, Jennifer Finneboylan, is not really tuned into the pop scene, but it's just, I have, I can only tell you the truth. I can only be me.

Jason Blitman: 12:07

I think a lot of gays love Classical music. I know a lot of folks who, Sit and listen to the Beethoven.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 12:14

Yeah, you know, what? I went to, the Beethoven's 8th and 9th on Friday at the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and man, we were at we're in the front row, and like the front row, So like there, like I was like, I level with the, their ankles

Jason Blitman: 12:30

I was, gonna say with their feet.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 12:32

I could have literally reached out And untied the first violinists shoes.

Jason Blitman: 12:36

Or tie them together.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 12:38

or yeah, that would have been better. In fact, it's funny when you're that close, normally if you're back, say 10, 20 rows you listen to a concert like this, whereas if you're. If,

Jason Blitman: 12:51

Because this is an audio medium, let's say you were making a sort of quizzical, looking around, slow, moving face. Yeah.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 12:58

The left and a little to the right. But if you're in the front row, you look over there, you're looking over there because over

Jason Blitman: 13:04

Bigger gestures, right?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 13:06

You're just in the music and so anyway it was so wonderful that ninth Symphony, that nut Ludwig, you'll not

Jason Blitman: 13:13

He knew what he was doing.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 13:15

oh FrieNDA. Oh, my friends.

Jason Blitman: 13:18

he had some middle of the night harpsichord emergencies, and that's where some of his stuff came from.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 13:23

of joy.

Jason Blitman: 13:24

Yeah.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 13:24

This is a time, for a lot of queer people, this is not a time of joy, this is a time of repression and fear. And to hear hear the Ninth Symphony for me the ode to joy, that was, it meant a lot to me, Raised my spirits.

Jason Blitman: 13:37

I love that. It's interesting, the way you describe your music journey throughout the day is almost like, It's like the evolution of music, right? Classical into jazz

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 13:48

Cut. Into rock and roll.

Jason Blitman: 13:49

yeah, that's so fun. I had never heard the song Amelia before.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 13:54

Really? Had you, did you listen to it?

Jason Blitman: 13:57

Of course I did. Now I did. And I loved it. It reminded me, it sounds nothing like it, but in terms of how it made me feel, it reminded me of Shiloh by Neil Diamond.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:07

Oh, interesting.

Jason Blitman: 14:08

There's a very like, melancholiness to it.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:11

Oh yeah, it's the melancholiness of being on the road and the mel the melancholy of travel. Which I'm going to bear in mind as I embark tomorrow upon book tour.

Jason Blitman: 14:21

So you're,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:22

life becomes a travelogue of picture postcard charms.

Jason Blitman: 14:27

Do you have your playlist ready?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:30

I don't. I really, I don't. I

Jason Blitman: 14:32

Yeah, you have more important things going on.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:35

yeah. Yeah no, I just, I don't make playlists anymore. I

Jason Blitman: 14:38

No, neither do I. I. It's like a thing you say, I guess.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:41

Well, a playlist, it's kind of like making a mixtape for yourself.

Jason Blitman: 14:45

Huh. Is that a

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 14:46

trying to I don't know, It's I guess you're, with a playlist, you're trying to win over, you're trying to, win over somebody. Whereas I feel like I'm already, I'm committed to myself. I don't need a playlist. I'm in. I'm good.

Jason Blitman: 14:55

Though, every once in a while I will say, If I'm at the gym, and I want, and I'm too busy looking for that song that's going to help pump me up, had I prepared in advance, I would have, it would have been better. That's where I think a playlist comes in

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 15:09

Yeah, there's a podcast called A History of Rock and Roll in 500 Songs by Andrew Hickey. and I'll listen to him. I'll listen to Andrew Hickey. Who's funny? It's a wonderful podcast. Do you know what? Have you ever heard of it? He, has, this is ave very deep, deep English accent, and he is it, it, it sounds, he is, like, you know, he's like, Janice Joplin fell down.

Jason Blitman: 15:37

And that's the history.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 15:39

that's, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 15:40

Oh, that's so funny. Okay. Just so that the people know, You said this is among your first events for Cleavage.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 15:48

yes indeed. How am I doing so far?

Jason Blitman: 15:50

so great.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 15:51

book

Jason Blitman: 15:51

No, this is what to be fair, every single thing that I've talked about is drawn from the book. All of,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 15:58

is Amelia in the book?

Jason Blitman: 16:00

Yes, girl, come on!

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 16:02

Where is it in the book? Because that's when my next book is going to have a lot about Amelia Earhart in it, in

Jason Blitman: 16:09

Let me tell you Something else that you say in the book is what a good memory you have. And every once in a while, And every once in a while, I'll bring up something that was in a book to an author. And they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Okay, Amelia is on page 158.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 16:26

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 16:27

Amelia Earhart is a beloved tragic heroine. Joni Mitchell, a pixie in her own right, sang hauntingly of her in the song Amelia.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 16:36

That's, we're talking about rogues and pixies, the two different kinds of at least two different kinds of, outlaw men and outlaw women. That's I love that chapter because there's a way in which we love our rogues, our men,

Jason Blitman: 16:50

Are scoundrels.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 16:51

But yes, but women, we call them pixies or we, but mostly we call them tragic because, often the women who try to, break the, break the, rules end up amelia Earhart, She Flows Down. I'm giving him a German accent now. He doesn't have a German accent, but I'm writing a a new book that among other things is has a whole chapter about Amelia Earhart. So I thought I was getting ahead of myself there. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:18

is prologue.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 17:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:21

See, I do my homework, I do my research. Not only did I read it, I also, then listened to the song.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 17:25

Well, It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful song and it's so much about, um, she, she gets away with using the tragedy of Amelia Earhart as this kind of personal metaphor for failing at love and the desire to fly like her. I had a dream to fly and looking down on everything, I crashed into his arms. Anyway, it's sad. It's a sad song, but it's beautiful.

Jason Blitman: 17:51

All that to say, everything I've talked about so far is in the book. Cleavage. What is your elevator, what is your elevator pitch? Do you have one yet?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 18:01

For cleavage? Sure. Cleavage is about it's about the difference. It's about two things. It's about the difference between men and women as I've lived it personally. And it's also to a somewhat lesser extent about the difference between coming out as trans 25 years ago, as when I did and coming out now 25 years ago, in some ways. It was harder because it was much less well researched ground, and you had to figure out a lot of things on your own. But it was also easier in some ways because nobody had really been taught formally on how to hate me yet. Back then, when I came out as trans, my mother said love will prevail. She put her arms around me, and, and most of her Republican evangelical Christian friends were all very Nice about it because it was just assumed that I was a person who was in trouble who needed a little human kindness. And now so now things are different. Now it's easier in some ways because that path has been blazed, but it's harder because now there's all this blowback. And we've been singled out as the objects of ridicule and fury by the orange Julius.

Jason Blitman: 19:09

Yes. That's not even nice to Orange Juliuses.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 19:12

No.

Jason Blitman: 19:14

so not to be overly simplistic about this, but if people were actually paying attention and actually had an imagination, the world could be a better place. And I think that's the heart of, not what the book is about, but it's a A big sort of question in the book. Can people have an imagination?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 19:33

funny. This is a really good um, Jason, because people um, one, one reason that well, of marriage equality is um, now we can get married. to each other, so that's good. But a sideline of marriage equality is also that it changed the way we talk about gay men and lesbians who are in love. Um, to be, now this is, again, 25 years ago, that if you had a conversation about gay, especially gay men, with a bunch of straight people, especially straight men, it would very quickly turn into like, a middle school jokes about how gay men have sex, you know. Um, then when The marriage equality movement came out, though, we came up with a phrase, love is love, and instead of talking about sex, we're talking about love. And so It's you know, I went to my mother's bridge group and said, you know, who here is into buttfucking? Raise, you know, maybe one or one or two of the women would have been, you know, mostly you would have kind of oh, use that language. But if you said who here is in favor of, love, of, course everybody's in favor of love. Who's not in favor of love? So way that made it easy to, imagine, it gave straight people, I think, license to of gay men and lesbians uh, way that they think of themselves, you know? leading with love rather than if there's a difference in, sex. than living with that with transgender people, it's a little, it's harder because people, you know, about who you love, it's about who you are and idea that you would not feel at home in your own body, that you would feel at home. Who. Um, that you weren't quite yourself. For some people that is, a harder thing to imagine. And we don't have a love is love. We have identity is identity, but that doesn't really ring off the, tongue very well. And um, because in fact, I think that. That it's, it is, in fact, a universal thing. People not feeling like themselves. Um, have to be transgender to look in the mirror and think, Who is that?

Jason Blitman: 21:39

Yeah. It's this is the stakes for what I'm about to say are, like, so incredibly lower and ridiculous compared to someone who's trans, but I have been playing with the idea of getting my ears pierced recently. And I was like, I don't know that I'm cool enough to do the like little studs that I was thinking about doing because I don't, I was like, I was, I've been debating my own. Coolness and identity and what does that. mean and does That feel like me and why would I, why am I curious to do that for myself? Why, and so it. was just, it, reading some of the book had me thinking about that. Why do I look in the mirror and think, why

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 22:18

Right.

Jason Blitman: 22:19

do I want that? But also why am I afraid to try that?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 22:22

Maybe just one Could you just try one?

Jason Blitman: 22:24

No one feels weird. I'm a very symmetrical sort of, person. I think in symmetry.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 22:29

that could be like, you know,

Jason Blitman: 22:30

Test the water. Yeah. At some point in your career, you felt the responsibility to be the Jackie Robinson of trans people.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 22:39

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:40

still feel that way?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 22:42

Um, feel that way, but I do wish that some of my um, I don't know. I was going to say something. I'm not sure. I believe I was going to say, I wish that um, my, um, travelers in the trans universe, um, I wish that they, I wish that they, could help make a better case to win over all the straights. But even as I say that, I'm like, really? People should like, alter who they are in order to win over a bunch of people who, why do we need to win over

Jason Blitman: 23:11

Right. And why does it need to be your responsibility?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 23:14

Yeah, I mean, I that at the same time, I also know we're at this particular political moment because we have been able to have been defined by um, issues that are at the, really at the, far edge of what, um, transgender, um, should really demand and be all about, which, and I want to be really careful here because, look I believe trans women should play the key. Um, women's sports teams um, do believe kids should be able to um, identify, um, gender and go on hormone blockers. But those two issues pick two, are probably the hardest to get your mind around and require the most understanding of nuance and science and psychology, um, Um, and it's not easy. Um, so at the same time, we have been able to have been defined by those issues. It, reminds me of the argument around, um, called partial birth abortion, that the, to life movement. the anti abortion movement um, gained a lot of um, by focusing on this kind of extreme procedure that you'd only go through, you know, were, you know, in a uh, the most dire of circumstances. And somehow that became a way of talking about That became the shorthand for talking about a much more common experience. So, careful. I'm not hanging um, women athletes out to dry, or um, abandoning my fight for trans kids. But, you would be willing to, our adversaries would be willing to fight for us um, other fronts, I'd be much more convinced that they actually care about women's sports and, get, and kids.

Jason Blitman: 24:56

Sure. Of course. Yeah, that's just women's right to choose. There's thousands and thousands of children in the foster care system and what's going on with them? And Do you actually care about the unborn children? Because you certainly don't care about it when they're on this side.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 25:11

Yeah. They don't care as much about the boring children.

Jason Blitman: 25:13

right, right, So no, I hear what you're saying. And I think what I'm also hearing is, This sort of me asking about Jackie Robinson, but also the coming off of the conversation about imagination. I think these, you said nuance and science and some other fantastic, very smart intellectual things. I think there is a lack of education. I think there's a lack of understanding, a lack of empathy. And it's the sort of perfect storm of people being scared, being confused, things being different. People don't like when things are different. People don't like this is why you have McDonald's in foreign countries. People like going to McDonald's. People like going to Olive Garden in New York City, even though it's some of the best Italian food in the country. Right? Because it's what's comfortable.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 25:56

what is it? People don't like what they know, they only know what they like.

Jason Blitman: 25:59

Right.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 26:00

was that, maybe it was the other way around.

Jason Blitman: 26:02

people Don't. Sure. What they know. Yes. That's how I heard it. I knew what you were talking about something I find very interesting about this book, Cleavage Cleavage,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 26:15

My book. My book, titled Cleavage. I am the author of the book, Cleavage, Yes, go on.

Jason Blitman: 26:23

men, women, And the space between us.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 26:25

And the space between us.

Jason Blitman: 26:26

is that it's not a follow up of one of your first books, but it also is And it? reminded me of this author named Jill Simmond. She came out with a book last year called Consent. And it was a follow up to her memoir from like 1996 called Half a Life. And it was about Her relationship with her professor and how that turned into a 30 year marriage and consent was written after he'd passed away. And she then interrogated herself from her previous memoir And came out with no answers, but it was looking at it from the perspective of 2024 of living a life of all sorts of things. And so I feel like Cleavage is. a version of that. I think what's so interesting is she's not there when you wrote it. I would guess that? you didn't, couldn't have even fathomed cleavage to be a book. And I'm excited for you.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 27:23

Well, I was going to write one book about gender and then go back to writing novels. Um, I thought that if I started, I really didn't want to be an activist per se. I thought that an activist was you know, an angry person who chained themselves to a fence. And I didn't, it just didn't seem very appealing to me. And um, learned was that writing is a really good form of activism. It is in some ways, maybe the most effective form of activism because stories allow you to kind of under people's skin and open their hearts and have people think of you as a human being rather than as an issue or the subject of a lecture. Um, other hand we're now, we've now arrived in 2025 and I've probably never been as angry as I, am at this moment. I'm angry, I'm also exhausted.

Jason Blitman: 28:10

right,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 28:11

extent that, you know the right fence, I'll chain myself to it. really,

Jason Blitman: 28:18

well,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 28:18

mad and so hurt.

Jason Blitman: 28:20

to what you were saying earlier, in the whole Jackie Robinson thing, I think it's important to me as a cis white gay man that I do a better job at relating to my LBTQIA plus. siblings and do my part using my privilege to To help support empathy and help people empathize with us as people, right? Cause I feel

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 28:53

I mean, degree, I think the best form of activism for me is um, up in the morning and, going for a walk and letting people look at my face and see me hold my head up high and go about my life without shame or guilt um, um, to let yourself get crushed. By all this, this bullshit. as Dr. Jacobi on Twin Peaks tells us, shovel your shell yourself out of the shit.

Jason Blitman: 29:20

was recently at a Margaret Cho show, and at the end she was saying to everyone, the most important thing that queer people could do right now is be happy and show people that we're happy. And mostly for a younger generation, and to I don't know. Do our best to prevail. Anyway, enough about drama. I, you were talking about prom dress, and I was what's the word I want to use? Not shocked, because that's not true, but the fact that you went to your 40th high school reunion was exciting for me, and I just don't know that I could do that. I think that gives me so much anxiety. Is seeing people from 40 years ago

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 30:00

funny is that, you know, those people have been softened by time as well. Um, not the, I, it was a class of 69 boys, So called. Um, of us, two of us came out as trans women um, us wound up in a wheelchair, you of us have died um, know, found it really fun to re engage with, but I mean, I love this kind of stuff. I have, I lot of good friends would never go to a high school reunion, but um,

Jason Blitman: 30:30

so much about seeing ourselves get older and, I think that's, I don't want to say that's what I'm struggling with because that's not necessarily true. But there is this uh, COVID was a weird time, and I think losing so much time there's something in the book where you go on to say if the dog is turning gray, then I certainly was too, or something like that and my dog started COVID as a very caramel colored, deeply caramel colored dog, and now is quite gray. And I was just like, wow, if time has done this to her. Looking back on my own pictures from five years ago is alarming. So anyway, just all of that mixed together made Me feel a lot about what a 40th high school reading experience could be like. And I was excited to see that you went to yours.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 31:15

Well, I mean, I it's important to think um, as from the point of view of, cleavage of this book um, books about transgender people, memoirs tend to be about transition. I Bono's book is called Transition. It's about this, I mean, and a new trans memoir, like every, about, every three or four months, there's, everybody's falling all over themselves at the latest, you know, good, because we should have as books as people can write.

Jason Blitman: 31:40

And all the stories are different.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 31:42

But, you know, the, and writing about transition is, I mean, amazing thing, going from Boy to girl or girl to boy. That's, a cool thing and it's worth writing about and it is amazing. But it's not the only thing that defines a trans person's life and if you, transition at 40 like I did and you live to 80, that's like half of your life happens after that. and what is that life What is that life like? what are we like? Not just in terms, as your hair gets gray and as your kids grow up and head out into the world and find their own adventures, but also what is it like to have the first half of your life defined by yearning for something you believe to be impossible, and then the second half of your life, you have that thing that you always dreamed of, and here you are. What is life like. then? thing I hope people will get out of cleavage is that a transgender person's life is about a whole lot more than that year or two when they're going from point A to point B. beyond point B is point C and D and Z.

Jason Blitman: 32:45

and also, it is still a life filled with difficulty and complications And frustrations just like anybody else's life is.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 32:53

Indeed. Indeed. And joy

Jason Blitman: 32:55

And joy! yes, of course! Speaking of joy, you say that you spend a lot of time at your pizza oven. And there is one, you talk about the quack up? Yes.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 33:08

Oh, the quack up, the d that's the duck with the blueberries and the um, I it's feta cheese.

Jason Blitman: 33:14

how did pizza making come to be for you?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 33:18

Well, you what, it, started off just as one of those things that would kind of family together on a weekend night, you know, we'd, a dough, you know, get a pre made dough from the store and some, mozzarella and some tomatoes, tomato sauce, and we'd, and the kids would make it, and that was fun, you know, Slowly but surely, I was like well, I make my own dough, because I've always been a baker. So I would make my own dough, and once I had my own dough, then I got like a piece of stone. And then, so it was like, you know, it you know, drugs. You know, by step. And so finally I have a pizza oven on my own that I make outside. And um, thing about pizza for me is that it is this just universal good. It's the one thing you're like lactose intolerant, or um, not to eat wheat, um, it's a thing that every, that, that brings people together, there's a lot of joy in pizza, and um, a, um, Wallace Stevens poem, The Emperor of ice Cream, which um, which he, mean, it's complicated poem, but he's talking about the, complications of, world. And then the last the, last line is let B be finale of seam. The only emperor is the emperor of ice cream, which I've always thought is this idea that the only ultimate ruler that we have is the ruler of well, ice cream, something that everyone. Everyone loves, again, except for the lactose intolerant, but even, you can have something

Jason Blitman: 34:48

right. There is a version of ice cream for them.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 34:50

so, to me is like that. It is a thing that um, put a smile on people's faces. Plus it's just really fun to make, so that's how I became a pizzaiola.

Jason Blitman: 35:01

You, is there, so you have the quack up, do you have other, are there other like things on the Jenny Boylan menu?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 35:07

the classic Jenny Boylan um, If I'm really trying to win you over, it's uh, the east, which means that you take, you make a lobster, you steam the lobster, then you, uh, the lobster apart, you get the meat out, you get the claws and the tail, and then you take the shells and you put the shells in the red sauce and let the shells simmer in the red sauce so that the shells, the red sauce gets this kind of redolent of pizza, so then a pizza that is um, I think a fairly thick crust, just a little bit of the red, that red sauce um, mozzarella, pecorino, and maybe a little provolone, depending on how you're feeling, and then when it comes out of the oven, you put the lobster on, you should, once the lobster should marinate in like, juice and garlic, and so then that, that, can go on top of pizza and that's, I mean, that's real main pizza and that's really fun. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 35:59

not a huge lobster person, it's not that I don't like it, I don't ever seek it out, but I'm always willing to try some things. This sounds, I'll come visit.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 36:08

Well, the thing that I love is, is, a classic white, pizza. Um, I use a bechamel sauce, although there are other kinds of white sauces, but on top of that you put a little gray air. Um, mushrooms, and um, got some mango sausages that are mango habanero sausages. So they're sweet with the mango, but they're also really hot. So you've got those, and then a little bit of um, pecorino on top of that. And um, few fresh jalapeno slices chopped up, put on top of that. So that's, I call that one the white tornado. Um, basically mushrooms and sausages and a white sauce, and that one is Killer. Yeah, that's a good one.

Jason Blitman: 36:48

When I order pizza from like The local pizza joint, it's basically like a, an Italian sausage sandwich. It's, I do, not with sausage, but I do meatball, sausage, or meatball, peppers, red onion, jalapeno, garlic on a pizza. It's so

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 37:03

What kind of red? Is it a classic red sauce?

Jason Blitman: 37:05

yeah. yeah.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 37:06

Do they do a vodka sauce?

Jason Blitman: 37:09

Maybe.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 37:11

are always nice to have with a vodka sauce, especially the veal meatballs, or half veal, half sausage. Um, like a vodka sauce is gonna be just a little bit the sauce will be a little bit more orange rather than uh, good. I'm coming over.

Jason Blitman: 37:25

Okay, yeah. We could do like a pizza swap. People do like cookie parties where everyone brings their own cookie.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 37:31

I went, somebody came to my house this summer and he, made pizza in my oven and it was potato chips and pickles. And I was like, wait, what? He said, sorry, I'm from Michigan.

Jason Blitman: 37:47

Potato chips and pickles.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 37:49

and pickles. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was interesting. All right.

Jason Blitman: 37:52

Pickles are a little salty for me, but I'm on board. I'm willing,

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 37:57

Well, you're not into the salt. You're not a, you're not a salt freak.

Jason Blitman: 38:00

I have high blood pressure, so I'm supposed to avoid it.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:04

No, no, That's good. That's good.

Jason Blitman: 38:06

gets very dry.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:07

you to die.

Jason Blitman: 38:09

I know, no strokes.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:11

Yeah, no.

Jason Blitman: 38:13

Charlie Brown comes up in the book.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:17

Yes, Yes the, the boy of constant sorrow.

Jason Blitman: 38:20

Uh Huh. And your perspective on his behavior made my heart very happy.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:27

that I swiped from a, a New Yorker article that

Jason Blitman: 38:30

Yes! What Peanuts Taught Me About Queer Identity.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:33

What Peanuts Taught. Yeah, although my title was The um, Marcy, you know, Peppermint Patty's sidekick, is always saying, I used Marcy's line, You're weird, sir. I thought was a much better title.

Jason Blitman: 38:47

Yes, that is a much better title.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 38:50

well, I know you don't want to go into this, but I will say that the thing about Charlie Brown that I always, am amazed by. The thing about, you know, when he lets Lucy, you know, hold the football, he knows that she's going to pull the football away. He's, it's not like he's some idiot. He knows exactly, but he's doing it. He lets himself be abused in this way because He knows it brings her a kind of pleasure. Um, I see, he's not really abused. I mean, he falls down,

Jason Blitman: 39:19

No it is like psychological abuse. It happens every single time.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 39:22

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 39:23

But yeah, I find that very charming.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 39:25

it's a little way of her what she wants, which is the, a false sense of, dominance.

Jason Blitman: 39:30

Yeah, and that article also is great, and we could link it in the show notes. Everyone, go check out the show notes. What else do I want to talk to you about? I have so many I There I do a lot of these, and I typically will have one page, one and a little bit pages of Google Docs of things to talk about, and this I have two full freaking pages. So many things to talk about. I need to pick what I'm most excited to. I really also just want to share my love of Deedee.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 39:59

Oh, that's nice.

Jason Blitman: 40:01

Deedee as a Character in the book, obviously. Character, person in your real life, but as a character in the book.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 40:09

This is my wife he's talking about,

Jason Blitman: 40:10

Yes, Dee Dee. I'm freaking obsessed with her!

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 40:14

She is pretty amazing. And um, say, it's one of the hardest things to do in a memoir, is to write about, the people that you love because, you know, can write about yourself and make yourself into a character and exaggerate this or that. To make the person that you love real on the page without it just being you, you know, swooning, you know, it's, it's not an easy thing to do.

Jason Blitman: 40:45

But you did it beautifully.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 40:47

Well,

Jason Blitman: 40:48

You for sharing Deedee with me.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 40:49

it's funny. She has a an ambivalent relationship with being in, in all of my work. I think she's proud of our marriage. She's proud of me. But she doesn't, I think people often think of her as a martyr or as some superhero. And, you know, she's just like, you know, I just I'm just supporting the person that I love. Isn't that what you're supposed to do? And she doesn't really want people to think of her as someone who is all that special, which is of course what makes her so amazing.

Jason Blitman: 41:21

And I don't and Right, there's nothing more than that. And I think that's exactly, I just don't mean to be repeating exactly what you just said, but that's exactly what makes her special. And I was like, she seems like such a wonderful human. And she and I could do yoga with Adrian together, and

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 41:40

you do yoga with Adrian?

Jason Blitman: 41:42

I do.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 41:43

Very good.

Jason Blitman: 41:44

There are two people that I think if I met in real life, I would cry. I'm not I don't get emotional when I meet a quote unquote celebrity or whatever, but she's one of those people, I think. Because I didn't really get into yoga until the pandemic.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 41:59

Right. Oh, she was, she was the person who got us through the pandemic

Jason Blitman: 42:02

yes.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 42:03

Benji the dog.

Jason Blitman: 42:04

and Benji the dog. And I think that seeing her would make me cry. I'm getting emotional right now thinking about it. Because, being with us in this time that we just really needed a calming presence.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 42:17

Also, yeah, she's got a very nice rap, hello my beautiful friends.

Jason Blitman: 42:22

Yeah. Anyway. I also have to tell you how much I'm obsessed with the word Boomerooz.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 42:36

And I've never heard anyone else use that word. Boomerooz,

Jason Blitman: 42:40

Neither have I, but I like, forever and forever, it will be imprinted on my

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 42:47

was my mother's euphemism for breasts. And, you know, my mother was, was um, well, she was an immigrant to this country, but she was also in time became a very kind of would consider herself a lady, she was a polite and she didn't swear. So she had this word for breasts, which was boomeroo's.

Jason Blitman: 43:09

Which doesn't come up in the book until the end. And I was like, talk about an alternative title this could have been!

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 43:16

the boomer is. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:18

No, when you

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 43:19

mother.

Jason Blitman: 43:20

the title, I think it is very meaningful. So again, I don't want to go into that, but people can read it. And I, and yet I also am a big supporter of what the original title was too.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 43:33

He's not there, or both sides now.

Jason Blitman: 43:35

now.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 43:36

Yeah, that was the working title for a long time, both sides now. And I went for cleavage only at the last, I was thinking about division. The division between men and women, the separation. And I was literally just going through the thesaurus and I saw cleavage and I thought, But I wasn't sure about it, and I was at a dinner party that night, and I asked people, What do you think about these titles? There's, he's not there, and there's, um, both sides. Now, and then, what do you think about cleavage? And when I said cleavage, one of my friends who was there literally fell off of his chair, laughing. And I thought, huh that's powerful. And the, I think the important thing, it took me almost as long to come up with the subtitle men, women, and the space between us because. With a title like Cleavage, I was afraid people would think that the book was like a history of breasts or boomeroos, as the case may be, but I'm hoping that, it has on the cover of this photograph of, oh, there it is, of Sophia Loren staring down Jane Mansfield's shirt there, her cleavage, her boobs are

Jason Blitman: 44:48

good.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 44:49

flying. And I just I'm hoping that people won't think that with that title and that, that photograph, it's a history of breasts. Although, it could be. Maybe that could work in our favor too.

Jason Blitman: 45:02

Oh my God. I love that. Jennifer Finney, Boylan Cleavage. Thank you for being here.

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 45:08

Thank you for having me. It was really fun to to talk about the book and also to play the piano for you. I don't know that I'm going to get to play the piano for any of the other podcasts, so this is a unique experience.

Jason Blitman: 45:20

gays love the piano playing. I'm, I need to leave you with one final question. Have you figured out how to solve a problem like Maria?

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 45:31

she's a flibbertigibbet, a will o the wisp. She's a girl. She's a devil. She's an angel. She's a girl. So I think, yes,

Jason Blitman: 45:45

I love that. Thank you so much, Jenny. So nice

Jennifer Finney Boylan: 45:48

And I'll see you again.

Jason Blitman: 45:49

Have a great rest of your day. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Julian Winters: 45:54

Yeah. I felt honored when I got the email, but also a bit intimidated because I am, like, this cinnamon roll kind of person, and so when I realized, oh, I would have to read about something or someone, I was like, ooh, where do I go with that?

Jason Blitman: 46:11

No, listen, it could, what, it could be, that your sheets are a little scratchy right now, right? Like it's. That's the thing, we always have something that we need to air a grievance about. And it could be very simple. Like for me right now I'm wearing sunscreen at the moment and I'm like, why can't they all be the non greasy, non sticky kind? Because I'm presently feeling very sticky and greasy. So that's my grievance. don't worry, don't let that stress you out. I'm,

Julian Winters: 46:48

am a big connoisseur of lotions and whatnot, and if it doesn't have that right feel, I'm automatically, I'm out. I don't care how great it is, the wonderful smell or anything, if it has that weird feel to it, I can't do it.

Jason Blitman: 47:00

yeah, and the older that I get, the more smells and things tend to just bother my system. And I'm just like I can't, and it's not even that I don't like it, it's that it makes my nose itch, or it makes my eyes water, or I'm just, I get very, I'm getting very sensitive as I'm getting older, Julian. This is terrible.

Julian Winters: 47:19

I hate to tell it to you, but yeah that's the way of life now,

Jason Blitman: 47:22

Huh.

Julian Winters: 47:23

the things we enjoyed a long time ago, not the case anymore.

Jason Blitman: 47:26

No, definitely not. Julian Winters, you are a very prolific YA writer.

Julian Winters: 47:32

Yeah, I

Jason Blitman: 47:33

And here you are, you've written your debut adult novel and I'm so excited to chat about that a little bit, but I have to know, because you are my guest guy reader, what are you reading?

Julian Winters: 47:44

what I'm reading right now is The Bro posal by Sonora Reyes. Yes it is Sonora's like me, adult romance debut. Think Sandra Bullock's The Proposal, but make it very queer. And they were roommates, childhood best friends to lovers, which I always get behind, especially as a queer person, because I feel like stories that focus on friendship for us as queer people, that, those are the first safe spaces where we're allowed to explore our sexuality, we're allowed to explore our identity, we're also allowed to explore what it means to be the person that we are and have romantic feelings. And so I will always love A Childhood Friend Celebrates, but it's also a very timely book. I know Sonora hates that it is, but considering where we are in our current political state to have a story with not only queer BIPOC characters, but a queer Mexican character who is marrying his best friend in order to have a green card yeah it hits. In ways that's gosh, I really need something like this right now, but also, oof, I feel this very deeply. That is what I'm reading and loving.

Jason Blitman: 48:58

excited to hear that, and I love the proposal, the movie, before we talk about your book, you in your bio, you say that you could be found swooning over rom coms. I'm A, where did your love for rom coms come from? And B, I have to know if there is a underrated rom com that we need to talk about.

Julian Winters: 49:21

Ooh, oh, that's a great question. Oh, to your first question, I, That's a great question. I guess because I am what you would call a serial crusher. So I was, like, every week is a new crush for me when I was younger. And the only ways to really deal with that was to watch rom coms. And I am of a certain age where I remember Yes, it cannot be verified, I'm sorry. But I re I remember going to Blockbuster Video every Friday night. And the rom coms were on display, and I was just like, Ooh, that one. Ooh, that one. Ooh, that one. That would be my weekend thing as someone who, I was too young to have a job, so what else am I gonna do on my weekend but sit at home and watch movies? I just developed this long term I want to say relationship with rom coms

Jason Blitman: 50:11

Yeah, is there like a first one that comes to mind? Not that comes to mind, but when you think back to Oh, this is one of the first ones I recall seeing?

Julian Winters: 50:20

There's probably two. One was Sleepless in Seattle. Sleepless in Seattle? Yeah, Sleepless in Seattle. Yeah. And then the other one was probably one I was not supposed to be watching at that age, but my aunt had it on but was pretty woman. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is wonderful. This is how love should be. Not like actually taking in the other parts of the story.

Jason Blitman: 50:40

happening?

Julian Winters: 50:40

Was like, yes, I want someone to ride through the city standing up in their limousine, confessing their love for me. Okay. Yeah, that's, those are like the earliest ones, but an underrated romcom. That is a great question. I honestly, there is one from when I was younger and I feel like it's underrated because it was so rare to have queer romcoms

Jason Blitman: 51:06

Oh, coming in with a queer rom

Julian Winters: 51:08

Yes, I. I love a movie called Trick. And it has, oh gosh Christian Campbell, which is Ned Campbell's

Jason Blitman: 51:18

yes. Very handsome

Julian Winters: 51:19

Yes! And gosh, I can't remember Mark's last name, but it was just this, it's just this

Jason Blitman: 51:25

John Paul Pittock. Oh, and Tori Spelling and Coco Peru.

Julian Winters: 51:31

Miss Coco Peru is in there! Yeah. And it's just so rare to find a queer romantic comedy at that time that did not end tragically. But I feel like this is for all of my baby queers, this is something that you need to watch to know your history. Um, And to know that we've had things that have existed that were just for us. And it's, yeah, it's such a funny movie.

Jason Blitman: 51:54

I had heard of it. I had never, I've never seen it and it's so funny cuz you look at The logo of the movie and it looks like Jeffrey, it looks like oh what's the, it looks like In N Out, it looks like they all, it's like the multi color block letters, they're, it's oh this is a gay movie

Julian Winters: 52:15

We wanted you to know that even though we're not explicitly saying it, we're explicitly

Jason Blitman: 52:19

Oh, that's so funny. Okay, I think they love you. Do you have an elevator pitch for the book? You must. What

Julian Winters: 52:26

They require these things, but I don't. I'm very bad at it. I'll try, though. The elevator pitch is, it is the story of 25 year old Denzel Denz Carter who works for his very famous family's event planning company and one day his father up and decides he's going to retire and they're going to hold a competition for the next CEO. But unfortunately for Denz, his family thinks he cannot commit to anything or take anything seriously. And he's out to prove them wrong. So he decides that he's going to not only enter the competition for this next CEO but he also invents a fake relationship. Unfortunately, he realizes that being a public facing person and that his family is so meddling, he actually has to bring this fake boyfriend around. And he gets stuck fake dating his, who broke his heart in college and moved away to London. And they both realize that they are each looking for a way to elevate their life. So they decide to go in this fake relationship. And lo and behold, Sometimes old feelings are hard to escape.

Jason Blitman: 53:36

There's a section in the book that addresses our love of rom coms and where, why we even like them when we know how the story is going to end.

Julian Winters: 53:46

Love that scene.

Jason Blitman: 53:47

Yeah. I alternated between the audiobook and the physical book, and I was at the gym, and I was listening to some of the very steamy scenes, I'm like, on the elliptical, and I'm like, I need to be paying attention. I'm gonna slip. I

Julian Winters: 54:05

hugest, best compliment. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 54:10

was like, pull your joggers back up. What are you doing? So

Julian Winters: 54:17

took you there, but I'm also glad that there was no actual bodily injury from listening to that.

Jason Blitman: 54:23

Zero injuries. What was the journey like going from writing for YA to writing adult?

Julian Winters: 54:28

It's fascinating because some people know I actually started in fan fiction. So Writing steamy spicy things was not new to me. I had actually done that before. But when I decided to start publishing, I knew there was a space I wanted to fill in YA. First and foremost. So that's the path that I took. But it was so interesting because by the time I sat down to write I Think They Love You, I had written five.

Jason Blitman: 54:57

I said prolific!

Julian Winters: 54:58

I forgot how to be an adult all of a sudden. I sat down to write an adult and I was like, I don't, how do I adult? How do adults talk? How do they communicate? How do you get these things? It was so bad that my agent had to call me out and she said, in this part right here, you can say man instead of boy, and I was like,

Jason Blitman: 55:17

Ha ha ha

Julian Winters: 55:19

writing way too many young adults where I could not even call a character an adult man. But it was a fun journey. It was it was a great learning experience, but also it was fun to just let loose. Just whatever I wanted to do, I went there and I did it and I had a lot of fun. And strictly focusing on the romance was also a really good time.

Jason Blitman: 55:40

Yeah. I love that. Arrr. Arrr. How has writing romance affected your love life?

Julian Winters: 55:50

To be honest with you, it has made me glad to still be single. I,

Jason Blitman: 55:54

Why?

Julian Winters: 55:55

writing about these things, I was just exploring some of the things made me, this book honestly was a second chance for me. Um, When I started, I was like, yeah, I've had some relationships that started really good and ended horribly. So I'm going to go in this and this is my second chance to rewrite those bad stories. And then when I was finished, I was like, actually, I'm glad that they ended the way that they did because it would not have given, it would, I would not have had the fuel to write these kind of stories where I give everyone else the, that hope for a second chance that they deserve. Meanwhile, I'm just like, I honestly could be. A little bit more like Denz in the beginning of the novel, where I'm just like, I'm not attaching myself to anyone. Let's make these rules where, I'm just gonna have fun. I think I could get behind that.

Jason Blitman: 56:42

Okay. I also, I don't know, I didn't know your relationship status, which is why I just said your romance life or whatever I said.

Julian Winters: 56:50

Mmhmm.

Jason Blitman: 56:50

We've had tons and tons of vamping and you've had time to warm up and you need to now express What is your grievance? Julian, what are you reading? What's your, tell me. This is a safe space.

Julian Winters: 57:03

This is a safe space. Okay. And I trust that anyone who's listening to this will not go back and say that I said this. I am, my grievance, yes, just between us let's not spill this tea anywhere else, but in 2025, I feel like I am ditching the fake friend. I am very much in a space now where I'm creating boundaries and I'm not making it okay for you to text me out of the blue and say can you do this for me? Can loan me this? Or show up for these things? Even though we haven't spoken at all for quite a bit of time. I am no longer accepting the people sliding into my DMs and doing the same thing. I am finished with the ones that call themselves friends but Only when they need you. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 57:55

I love that. And I also love that you turned this on its head and what, and you really claimed your boundaries and that's what this is about. And I love that. I recently was saying to my husband that I'm tired of friendships being one sided. And so I'm happy to accept I'm, I will respond to a random out of the blue text message. If that mean if you're not asking me a favor, if we haven't talked in so long, but if that means that we're progressing the relationship forward and it can be symbiotic rather than one sided.

Julian Winters: 58:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 58:31

I'm loving Boundaries 2025. I think it's a very good time for us all to be putting, building, building our offensive, building our walls.

Julian Winters: 58:41

Let's stop letting certain people into our lives just because. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also, let's stop with having transactional relationships where it has to be you do this for me, I do this for you thing. Let's get back to the genuine relationships where it's like I want to be supportive of you and, make sure that you're okay.

Jason Blitman: 59:02

Yeah, I love that. Okay, also in your bio. I know more about you than your bio, but the fact that the bio said this, it piqued my interest because I just had RK Russell on Gaze Reading and he is a former football player and I was saying that I've never been to a football game and that sports are not really my thing. And in your bio you talk about watching volleyball and soccer as these two sports that you're able to follow. Alright, but I'm impressed that you even are an avid enough watcher of those sports to put those in your bio. Tell me more.

Julian Winters: 59:41

Yeah, it's so it, it was not something through my youth. I did not keep up with sports at all. I remember I would go to football games and say, Oh, he was just goaltending. That's basketball terminology. Like what? I was too gay for sports and then for volleyball, I got into that through watching the Olympics and whatnot, and it just so happens that my brother married into a family that is a volleyball family my sister in law's father is the head coach at a very prominent university volleyball team, so I've wholly, throughout the year, I have become one of those, Guys that you'll see me at a bar or restaurant on my phone checking stats and whatnot. Oh, it's

Jason Blitman: 1:00:24

Okay.

Julian Winters: 1:00:25

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:26

so fun.

Julian Winters: 1:00:27

Yeah, it is and I have so much fun with it. I also Struggle with keeping my emotions in check with it and soccer came about because of my first book running with Lions I knew I wanted to set it in the, team sports world. And I went with soccer, and I started studying and research about it, and then just became a fan. I try to catch games as much as possible, mainly from the college level. Once it gets to the professional level, I lose interest because then they're playing for money and everything, and it doesn't feel like it's for the love of the game anymore. But yeah. But again, it is only those two sports. If you ask me about anything now. No clue.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:06

That's more sports than you could talk to me about! I'm impressed!

Julian Winters: 1:01:12

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:13

Julian thank you for being my guest gay reader today. I hope complaining wasn't too painful for you.

Julian Winters: 1:01:19

No, actually no. Now you're actually going to have me walking through the streets and just trash everything I have a grievance with. I'm just going to let it all out.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:27

It's about letting it go and putting, it's it's okay for us to not hold these things inside of us. And it's, trying to make change in the world here. And we start with inside.

1:01:35

Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Julian. Everyone, have a great rest of your day. Find us over on Instagram at GaysReading. We have giveaways going on, and I will see you next week. Bye.