0:04

Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Mhm. Hello, and welcome to Gays Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and I am Here. We're all here. We did it. We made it another week, everyone. The world might be crumbling around us, but we are still here. And the books are still coming out, which is great because we need as much escapism as we possibly can get right now. We're all in this together. I am very grateful to have you here at Gay's Reading. And I am thrilled to have today's fantastic, I always say fantastic, I'm very thrilled to have today's fantastic guest, even though I say it all the time, I'm still gonna use it, because it's true, they're fantastic. Nancy Johnson is here to talk to me about her new book, People of Means, and then I talk to this queer artist her name is McKenna Michaels, I had never heard of her before. And then I listened to her music and it's great. Her sound is very much Adele meets Chapel Rone. McKenna's latest single, Monster, just came out last week. You can find it wherever you get your music. And in general, I think you're going to be in for a treat when you listen to her stuff. And when you learn about what she's working on in addition to her music, I think you are going to be into what she's doing too. If you listened to my special Valentine's Day episode with Jessica Sofer, the author, This is a love story. I have terrible news. The news is that her crab sauce did not come with the package for her Valentine's Day dinner. And if you listened to the episode, then you know how terrible that is. Jessica and I also talk about A Miranda July article, and she can't remember the name, and I could tell you that it is Something That Needs Nothing by Miranda July, a fictional story in The New Yorker from September 2006. So if you had any interest in that story, I can stick that link in the show notes. As always, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. a little share here and there goes a super long way, and if you are so inclined, leaving a review, particularly on Apple podcasts really, really helps with the algorithm and helps us pop up where other people might be looking for bookish podcasts. So that would be super, super helpful for this little. Itty bitty indie podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram at GaysReading, and we are also over on Blue Sky now. You could watch this episode on YouTube, and links to all the things are both in the show notes and in the link tree on the Instagram. Both Nancy and McKenna's bios are in the show notes as well, and those are all the things. Alright, thanks everyone, enjoy this episode of GaysReading!

Jason Blitman: 3:22

Nancy Johnson, here to talk to me about People of Means, new book, Welcome to Gay's Reading,

Nancy Johnson: 3:31

Thank you. So good to be here.

Jason Blitman: 3:33

okay, this is about you, but before we talk about you, I need to talk to you about how your parents met.

Nancy Johnson: 3:45

Interesting.

Jason Blitman: 3:47

because that is your dedication in the book. You like, give a little nugget, and I am obsessed with a meet cute.

Nancy Johnson: 3:54

I know.

Jason Blitman: 3:55

this is

Nancy Johnson: 3:56

they don't talk, they didn't talk about it much, so I don't have a lot more, but it's interesting, right? So it's just the. The part that they've told me that it was in, in the sort of in about 1969, around there, because I was born in 71. And yeah, they met in a taxi cab, leaving a civil rights me type meeting. So yeah, they didn't know each other.

Jason Blitman: 4:18

you know.

Nancy Johnson: 4:18

That's all I know. They just happened to be, taking the same cab and they lived in the same uh, community on the south side of Chicago. So that's why they were in the same cab, but yeah, they didn't know each other, but they both had this interest and passion for civil rights and that's what really brought them together. So I feel like I'm a civil rights baby.

Jason Blitman: 4:38

Yeah. Oh my god, I love that. And it's also so interesting because the fact that you don't know more than that Like, Pepper throughout this book.

Nancy Johnson: 4:49

Yeah, I don't know more than I know. That's true. That's true. And my father died in 2008. And then my mom now has Alzheimer's. It's even if I could try to find out more at this point,

Jason Blitman: 5:00

Yeah.

Nancy Johnson: 5:01

it's it would be hard to, right? So there's some mysteries and some, and that's something that I've talked about in both of my novels. The Kindest Lie, which was my first one, came out in 2021 and then now People of Means. Just this idea of how well do you really know? Your parents and your family. You know what I mean? You're very close, you don't always know.

Jason Blitman: 5:23

every once in a while my mom will be like, Oh, I didn't think that was important. Or I didn't remember that piece of my life, so why would I share it? And as, as children, we, I think, crave information.

Nancy Johnson: 5:38

We do. We do. We want to know everything. Yeah, before my father died, I was like, can I record you and ask some questions? And he's nah, we'll do it later another time. And then it got to be too late and it never happened. And I wish I had forced it a little more,

Jason Blitman: 5:51

Yeah.

Nancy Johnson: 5:52

And my father would give me some stories, but he didn't want to be recorded. You know what I mean? He said we the right moment and then he would be talkative.

Jason Blitman: 6:01

Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay, we're like beating around the bush of what this book is about. For the listeners, can you give us the elevator pitch for people of means?

Nancy Johnson: 6:12

People of Means is a story of an upper middle class black mother and daughter, and they're both coming of age at different times of racial reckoning or social reckoning in the country. So the mother of the story is Frida, and she's coming of age as a young woman in The late 1950s, early 1960s as a student at Fisk University in Nashville. It's a historically black university and she's coming from Chicago and she gets there at this time of, um, where everything is changing. This, just the beginnings of the civil rights movement and such, and that's just getting started. And she's trying to find her way and decide how involved, if at all, to get in all of that. And then three decades later her daughter, Tulip, is coming of age as a young public relations professional in Chicago 1992, the time of the acquittal of the four officers, white officers in the beating of Rodney King. So she's facing a similar dilemma of whether or not to get involved, how much so to be involved.

Jason Blitman: 7:17

But I would maybe argue that as a Chicagoan, for you the most important fact of 1992 is that it was when the Bulls won.

Nancy Johnson: 7:25

I know. We had the repeat, then we had the three P's, all of that.

Jason Blitman: 7:30

you have referred to this book as timely and timeless. We have, one plot line in, as you said, the late fifties, early sixties, another in the early nineties. And here we are in 2025 each version of the story could.

Nancy Johnson: 7:53

And I don't plan that.

Jason Blitman: 7:55

No of course, I I was going to say it's not, it's to even say is that frustrating, is so minimizing because obviously it's inherent, it's incredibly frustrating. But I guess maybe the question really is like, how does it feel to be? I'm interrupting myself because something I wanted to talk to you about later. Let me now find it in my notes because it, oh yeah, okay. Ida B. Wells is,

Nancy Johnson: 8:22

journalist.

Jason Blitman: 8:23

is was a trailblazing journalist and she was known for holding racists accountable. With her pen.

Nancy Johnson: 8:34

She was.

Jason Blitman: 8:35

And, while it is infuriating that we're repeating history, do you feel like you are holding accountable with your pen? Mm.

Nancy Johnson: 8:49

I think about that a lot. It's a fine line because sometimes I think about is this My way of resisting and through my writing and in some ways, yes, but also I don't want to be didactic though ever with what I'm doing and feel like I'm, writing a book to present a certain point of view or to preach to anybody about any particular issues. You know what I mean? It's not activists. Work in that sense. But I do think it is about holding a mirror up to us as a society and as a country to show people who we are, who we've been and there's such that through line that I'm able to see and looking at where Frida was in 1959, the 1960s and what was happening there and what she was facing and the conflicts and such that 1992 and then to now. And I just think, yeah. We are facing the same thing. And particularly as black women right now in this country, we call ourselves some of us at least call ourselves part of that 92 percent in terms of the vote. For Kamala Harris and this most recent election. Not to be too political here, but there, but there's this feel that we are the ones who are always on the front lines of saving the democracy. Holding the country Up to its greatest ideals, in a country that doesn't always love us back. And it's hard to know how much to lean in, how much to engage, right? You know, When have you done enough? When is it too much? And it's like somebody else's turn to step in the gap and do the work.

Jason Blitman: 10:23

And I think, you talking about holding up a mirror is what reading the book felt like. And I can say I didn't feel like it was didactic, and I think that it can be, there could be a third plot line of someone in 2045. writing the story of Tulip's friend Nancy, writing the, doing the same thing because we're just, it's just this perpetual timely and

Nancy Johnson: 10:57

as an author, it's cool because I'm able to say it's timely and timeless. But then as a human being and a part of this society, it's like, God, when do we ever get it right? And when do we ever fix it? But I think it's something that we're constantly. Working for it, to be back.

Jason Blitman: 11:16

there, there's something interesting too, on one hand I did just say it doesn't feel didactic, which is true. I will also say there's something about reading history in a digestible way,

Nancy Johnson: 11:30

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 11:31

where it doesn't feel like you're quote unquote learning in a way

Nancy Johnson: 11:37

That's so true. Yeah. Yeah, it's easier to connect with some of the, the concepts and the things that you want people to take away from it. Right where they don't feel like they're being preached to because then you're going to lose people, but when you do it through character and story, it's easier to connect and then you draw your own conclusion. So I'm not telling anybody what to think and what to do, but, and then also I like to present characters that are very. Multidimensional and complex and come at it from different angles, right? So everybody's not out there yeah, I got a picket sign and I'm, be an activist in this

Jason Blitman: 12:09

a, it's so much of it is about humanizing

Nancy Johnson: 12:12

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 12:13

and there is not a plot line, but there, there are moments in the book where there are specific conversations about frustrations around gay men comparing themselves to black women. So I'm not gonna, I'm not doing that. But what? But what I am, but I will, what I will say is sharing my own experience on GaysReading, I have a guest gay reader on every episode basically to humanize the gay stereotype, right? Like here is a person that you're just gonna hear from because it's a person and when you get to know that person, it can help change perspective.

Nancy Johnson: 12:49

I struggled a little bit with that and writing this book because I wrote a little more of the character who is gay, but it was, and I was talking to my editor about it and my agent about how much is too much. And I got the feedback that. Because I didn't want this person to just be like a bystander and a caricature but, They said, you have to be careful. You have to either go all the way or kind of the where I landed, in terms of kind of building out the story and making that character a real part of the. The story, but I thought it was interesting the, because I, you know, have, it's weird to have gay friends. It's like somebody said, I'm a black friend. Right. Oh, my God. That doesn't sound good. But yeah, more than one. But yeah,

Jason Blitman: 13:32

ha

Nancy Johnson: 13:34

but we have these conversations sometimes about the experiences of being gay versus being black. And there's some commonality there in terms of struggle, but then the experiences are still very different.

Jason Blitman: 13:48

A hundred percent. Yes. And I think that's There are so few people that experience even that sliver of the center of the Venn diagram that I think makes us want to connect deeper than the connection really is.

Nancy Johnson: 14:06

And being black, you're black and gay. That's another,

Jason Blitman: 14:09

Yeah

Nancy Johnson: 14:09

like a whole other, issue.

Jason Blitman: 14:11

Yeah, absolutely. And to speak as a cis white gay man, I think there, it's, there are pieces that I could see in a black woman where, there is a, an element of being on the front lines in our own fight or, you know, in, although, you know, black trans women are really the people on

Nancy Johnson: 14:31

You're really, You're really uh,

Jason Blitman: 14:32

you know, So it's, I don't know, it's interesting, but I, um. it had me thinking about that too. Where does that come from and why, what is that connection and,

Nancy Johnson: 14:43

And I find this not just with friends who are gay, but also maybe friends who are Jewish, that you get into this discussion, at least I do, where you almost get into what we call the oppression Olympics. Who had it worse, and there's no winner there. And I think I even said that in there, in the book.

Jason Blitman: 14:58

Huh,

Nancy Johnson: 14:58

There's no, no real victor when you start to do that. Of people killed during slavery versus the Holocaust. You know what I'm saying? It's,

Jason Blitman: 15:06

nobody comes out having a

Nancy Johnson: 15:07

Nobody comes out. No, not at all. And it's not even about that. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 15:12

okay, in talking about Secondary characters in the book and friends in the book. I am obsessed with who I was referring to as Evelyn or Eveline. Eveline. Obsessed with Eveline.

Nancy Johnson: 15:29

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 15:30

She in the book is described as fun and trouble all in one.

Nancy Johnson: 15:35

Right. Right.

Jason Blitman: 15:36

Um, Do you

Nancy Johnson: 15:38

I've always had, I've always had fr a friend like that.

Jason Blitman: 15:41

Yes?

Nancy Johnson: 15:42

Yeah. Like in college I had a friend that kind of fit that. And then now, one of my best friends, is a different person. You

Jason Blitman: 15:50

Huh.

Nancy Johnson: 15:50

that Yeah. Because I'm,'cause I'm a lot more like Frieda, person, you know, a little more cautious and then, but you need somebody who's gonna push you over that edge. And to, to have the fun, laugh at the things, do the things that you wouldn't normally do, take the risk. And I

Jason Blitman: 16:07

that comes to mind? Is there like a risk that you took because you had that friend who was, who pushed you over

Nancy Johnson: 16:12

This is small, but like when I was in college, I mean I was very sheltered, so similar to Afrina, came from a, like a middle class background, but only child, and didn't go out and do a lot of things, didn't date, I didn't date in high school at all, and I was just, just very sheltered. Went to college on campus, first time away from home, and one of my friends, her name is Amber she was very outspoken, and also I wasn't one to really express myself as much, and I just remember because of her walking down the streets of Evanston, Illinois, just screaming and singing at the top of my lungs and, people staring at us. And because of her getting to the point where I don't care and I can do something like that. Something I would never do on my own. I know that seems silly, but it's just the kind of thing that we're like, we're bold. We're loud. We're here. It's okay.

Jason Blitman: 17:03

That it's nice to remember too that, that, that push doesn't have to be to do something huge.

Nancy Johnson: 17:13

No, it's just little things that I was able to do.

Jason Blitman: 17:16

Yeah, it makes me think about my friend, Melissa, we were I was interning in New York city for a summer while I was at school in Chicago and she was there doing a program from Texas. So we both were like in New York and she, again, very big personality, fun and trouble all in one. And she was on the street and she was like, I love New York because nobody cares what's. happening around you. And she was she just started doing lunges walking down the street, and she was like, This doesn't look weird to anyone, and I was like, You're right. And I like, started doing it with her, and we have the, these two people, just doing lunges down

Nancy Johnson: 17:53

You wouldn't have left it in the middle of the street. And you wouldn't have left it,

Jason Blitman: 17:56

Literally No, I would have never done anything like that, and it's so simple.

Nancy Johnson: 18:00

was so embarrassed and oh my god, people are watching me. Because I'm always one who's very self conscious of people around me and what they think and

Jason Blitman: 18:07

mhmm.

Nancy Johnson: 18:08

and yeah, so it's cool to be with people who get you out of that. And I think that's what, one of the things that Evelyn did for Frida kind of just brings her out a bit more. And then of course, Frida's love interests also are a big part of the book

Jason Blitman: 18:22

Yes.

Nancy Johnson: 18:23

of her viewpoints and how she evolves.

Jason Blitman: 18:26

Yes, I know, and I'm curious to talk about some love stories in a second, but you just said something about going about, doing whatever down the street and wondering what they would think. And there is a conversation in the book and an ongoing conversation, I think, in all of our lives about the omnipresent and nebulous they.

Nancy Johnson: 18:46

They,

Jason Blitman: 18:46

What would they think? Why are we so stuck on that?

Nancy Johnson: 18:50

know. I've always been stuck on it. And so

Jason Blitman: 18:52

Me too.

Nancy Johnson: 18:53

like, I'm still stuck on it. Even having friends who try to get me out of it, I'm still. That's still such a big part of me, I think, I was listening to one time Oprah was being interviewed and she talked about, so it's really, most of us are like this because she was mentioning that every time she interviews a guest and she said, it doesn't matter if it's like just some, person who's, not very well known, but she had on or a superstar, they always turn to her afterward and said, say, how did I do? Was I, was it okay? And And You know, because everybody's wanting to know, am I good enough? Am I worthy? So we're always looking outside of ourselves for, I think, for validation. Which is hard sometimes because I don't want to always do that. I'm working on myself

Jason Blitman: 19:38

and it's interesting because it's like validation is one thing. Did I do a good job? But then there is the, what would they think? And it's who is the they? And if they think disparagingly about me, what? What difference does that make to is that going to have an impact on me? And I'm asking these questions for myself, not you.

Nancy Johnson: 20:00

know. We're both guilty of,

Jason Blitman: 20:02

Right.

Nancy Johnson: 20:03

the they, and it could be people we don't even know sometimes, you know what I mean? society.

Jason Blitman: 20:10

just like, we don't even know who the they is.

Nancy Johnson: 20:12

That's true. It's like, it's nebulous.

Jason Blitman: 20:14

Yeah. Yeah. Of

Nancy Johnson: 20:18

But I do think in the book, Frida is, part of the, they is her family, her parents, she is at a point of being like I was talking about, being away from home for the first time and being on your own at a place where you can make your own decisions. And they, your parents, your family, they're not watching. necessarily everything that you do. And so you have an opportunity, but even if they're not there and they're not present for Frida, they are in her head. They are hovering over everything and every decision she makes. And then, and I think also being black in America at that time Going to an esteemed university like Fisk University, getting that college education, it means something. So it's, you are, you're representing them, Your parents, representing them. But she felt she was representing an entire community, an entire black community that's, that she's representing. So there's so much weight. In every move you make and decision you care, you're carrying a community with you.

Jason Blitman: 21:21

up because, in my mind, when you said, in some of the context of the book, that they is her parents and her family, then I was thinking, oh, contextually, They could be friends. What would my friends think? What would a boy that I want to date think? Even if you, even if that person doesn't exist, like what would they in quotes think? And then what you were saying about holding up a community, there is also this big undertone of the book of your people. Who are your people? Who are their people? Can you, I don't want to say can you unpack what that means, but what does that mean to you? What is asking somebody who are your people or who are their people, what does that mean to you? Hmm,

Nancy Johnson: 22:07

About, you know, how you identify it's how where do you identify? Like I'm, it's like I'm often or not often, but sometimes I'm asked, who do you, what do you identify as first? Cause I'm, I'm a woman, I'm black, you know, so I'm a black woman. you know, I'm, I'm a child of God. I'm, I'm all these different. Things. But I feel that in America, because of race in America and the role of it there's a stronger identity for me as a black person. Even more so than as a woman. So I identify as black before woman. And so some of this is not always internal. I feel like it's that external piece of where we've been socialized, here in this country to think about race. If we live in some other part of the world, it might be very different. You know what I mean? But in America race is such a big part of identity. And I just think it's what, whatever you lean into the most. It could be your gender, it could be sexuality. It could be any, whatever it is that kind of defines you the most. And I think at that time in America, just with civil rights burgeoning, the movement burgeoning, it, it was a time when even if you didn't want to be identified, you'd be told quickly that, every time, you've got Frida, going, on her first date with a young man on campus, she's faced with, colored and white. restrooms and colored and white water fountains, right? So in the Jim Crow South, you're forced into this, that, that is who you are because you've been told and the laws uphold that, right? And so that's a little bit more. You can't decide to be something different because that's who you are, but it's how do you relate to that? And I think there's, and this is, I don't know if you were going to get into this at all, but I think there's a misconception in the civil rights movement that everybody was engaged in it and involved in it. So even though these are your people and you're Black, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to, you get involved in activism, right? Because it's scary, right? You're risking a lot. And then you've got somebody like Frida her parents, they were like, we have invested everything in getting you this education at this great university. You're not going to mess that up by being sullied by all this, crazy talk about activism. That's not going to happen.

Jason Blitman: 24:31

well, and it's also really interesting because there are these overt depictions of activism in the book, but there are also depictions of ways that people can be activists without being on TV. Without

Nancy Johnson: 24:52

you think? What did you think were some of those? Okay.

Jason Blitman: 24:56

It's especially interesting right now because in an, in the age of social media, I think if. If you don't present a certain way to your followers, then that means that you are not doing something.

Nancy Johnson: 25:12

That's so true. That's so true. And I was wondering if that's where you were going to go. And we don't have to get into the details of it. But some of those more under the table subtle ways that People were involved in activism. I got that from and I hate to say the late Nikki Giovanni. The poet and author and she died recently. But she was someone, she's also published by what was published by William Morrow, Harper Collins, so the same publisher. So they were able to connect us to have a Zoom call, a conversation, and I interviewed her. Cause she was a student at Fisk university during the sixties. So she was the one who told me about the role of some of the folks that you meet who are well known in the book. And about, what the perceptions were of them and what they really were doing and all of that. So that was pretty cool too. And I said to her, I was like, wow, I said, I can't wait to look all this up. And she said, girl, you're not going to find any of this in the history books. And this was. What she knew from lived experience

Jason Blitman: 26:11

And It doesn't surprise me. It doesn't surprise that it's It doesn't surprise me that it's something we don't know about. And it doesn't surprise me that it was something that was happening. Because if you are Right, if you're at a certain level where people are paying attention to you, no matter what you're doing, you'll get scrutinized in

Nancy Johnson: 26:32

that's right. There's this target on your back. And so it's like, how, outspoken can you really be? But there are ways to still, like you said, to still do it and still be part of activism.

Jason Blitman: 26:42

Yeah. Frida gets asked the question, if there was any any musician, any, who would you want to see perform? And she answers Who would that be for you?

Nancy Johnson: 26:55

Oh, gosh.

Jason Blitman: 26:55

you can

Nancy Johnson: 26:56

I was just watching a retrospective about, on CNN about the life and the music. of Luther Vandross, and so the late Luther Vandross. I never went to see him in concert, so that's one of my big regrets, but he would have been, he has just such a beautiful sound and such a soulful voice. I would have loved to have seen him perform. Yeah, so he was always my person. I have so many I didn't go see Prince But I'm, but I was a kid. I got to see the Jackson 5. Yeah, I was little and yeah, so I don't remember it well, but I do have this image of all five of them on the stage and, performing. But

Jason Blitman: 27:33

Those are great answers.

Nancy Johnson: 27:35

yeah, those are some of the ones. I know I'm missing everybody who's already passed.

Jason Blitman: 27:39

No, that's okay. Listen

Nancy Johnson: 27:41

It's easier to be like, Oh, yeah, this is the, get tickets to go see Beyonce,

Jason Blitman: 27:44

right, you like can make it happen.

Nancy Johnson: 27:46

I could make that happen. But then some of these others, it's I can't make it happen.

Jason Blitman: 27:52

is so random, but something that I learned whilst reading the book is that you are not supposed to spit tough meat gristle into your napkin.

Nancy Johnson: 28:04

I know, right? I found that in some etiquette book out of nowhere,

Jason Blitman: 28:08

Okay, but what are you supposed to do? Deal with it?

Nancy Johnson: 28:11

I know, swallow it!

Jason Blitman: 28:12

I read that and I was like, okay, but where's the solution? What are we supposed to do?

Nancy Johnson: 28:18

and I included some on the list like that, and this was I think Tulip talking about the kinds of things that she learned, growing up and all of that. That whole etiquette piece. But I included some of those examples because there's an absurdity to the kinds of rules. That people are asked to live by, right? It doesn't make, it doesn't make any difference really where the fork is, or where the knife and the spoon are placed and all that. But it's all part of designing a life for yourself and that they design for you. But there's a reason for, I say it's absurd, but I also at the same time understand it because there's this. Believe at least for tulips, parents for freedom and tulips dad that we're preparing you for the world, right? We're preparing you to be successful in a world. That's not always very kind to you, and that's not set up for you. To succeed, not set up for your ascent. And we're making sure that you're going to be ready for that. And that's the same thing that Frieda's parents were doing for her too, preparing her to make it and to not just make it, but to thrive.

Jason Blitman: 29:31

Yeah. And it's hard though, as a young person, without context of living, to see it that way.

Nancy Johnson: 29:40

I know that's true. It's Oh, why do I have to do this? And that's ridiculous. And that was me. I was always trying to rebel, I think, too, in my own way, in my quiet way. You know what I mean?

Jason Blitman: 29:51

How did you rebel? Yeah,

Nancy Johnson: 29:58

some cutting remark under my breath, or either just being when I'm away from them thinking, huh, I don't have to do what they say do anymore.

Jason Blitman: 30:06

Because you're your own

Nancy Johnson: 30:07

yeah, I can do my own thing. Yeah, they didn't want me to go to parties and all that in high school, so I didn't go to many things because we were afraid. I didn't go trick or treating. I never went trick or treating as a kid because my parents were afraid of, needles and razor blades and candy. And, you know, there were a few cases of these kinds of things when I was growing up back in the day. And so it was like, Nope, you're not going to be out and doing that. So now but now I'm more apt to dress up and to go to Halloween parties and to do the things that, I couldn't do before.

Jason Blitman: 30:37

Yeah, it's interesting my friend Whose birthday is today day of recording? That's weird. She for a piece of her life, grew up Jehovah's Witness, and because of

Nancy Johnson: 30:51

don't celebrate those

Jason Blitman: 30:52

they don't celebrate anything.

Nancy Johnson: 30:54

birthdays, I

Jason Blitman: 30:54

And upon no longer being a Jehovah's Witness, she used to be all out birthdays, all out holidays, all out everything, because she was making up for that time.

Nancy Johnson: 31:08

time, we wasn't, yeah, able to do those things.

Jason Blitman: 31:11

Yeah, very weird that today is her birthday to text her.

Nancy Johnson: 31:14

so cool. Happy birthday. Belated by the time you hear

Jason Blitman: 31:17

Exactly. Yeah, there's, just thinking about parents because that's so much of the book is really about these sort of parent child dynamics. There. I had this question of wondering whether or not we ever escape our parents admonitions in the back of our minds.

Nancy Johnson: 31:37

Right. I don't, I don't know. I don't think I do. I still think about them. And you know how it is, they say that the older you get, like when you get out on your own and then you start to experience life on your own, you start to see that some of the things they told you made sense, right? And then you find yourself, saying. Some of the same things, like I don't have kids, but I know a lot of people who have kids say that, they say the same things to their kids that their parents said to them, but you start to see the value of some of that, I can still hear my dad like on his deathbed telling me, save your money, be sure to save your money, yeah, that was one of the things that he was saying to me, okay. Because I could be a spendthrift sometimes and not always, I don't always know the price of eggs. I'm just like, I don't know. I need one on fire,

Jason Blitman: 32:21

do you have a vice? What's the thing that you can't not buy?

Nancy Johnson: 32:26

Oh God, do I have one thing?

Jason Blitman: 32:29

Are you like a purse person? Are

Nancy Johnson: 32:30

No, I'm

Jason Blitman: 32:31

person? Are you

Nancy Johnson: 32:31

but but I do like clothes. I like outfits. And so I have White House Black Market is my go to. And and so I have several of those. Locations in the city and in the suburbs where they know me and they give me the biggest fitting room because they know I'm about to drop a lot of money, buying clothes and and so then someone always spends all this time helping me bringing in so many outfits to try. And yeah, so that's my,

Jason Blitman: 32:57

Okay.

Nancy Johnson: 32:58

I try to limit it to about once a month, but sometimes I'm in there more frequently.

Jason Blitman: 33:02

Listen! You have a book coming out!

Nancy Johnson: 33:06

That's right. And so that's the thing. It's I've got clothes in the closet. I haven't even worn. But, I've got book tour events. I probably need to go shopping again, the ideal outfits.

Jason Blitman: 33:19

It's so funny. No matter where my mother is traveling, she always says, I don't have anything to wear, I have to

Nancy Johnson: 33:27

that's why I feel my mom and I say the same thing. We never have anything to wear when this, when an event comes up. Never. There's nothing to wear. And I don't understand either. What happened to those clothes?

Jason Blitman: 33:37

Where's it all going?

Nancy Johnson: 33:39

like,

Jason Blitman: 33:40

So it's interesting that this is what we're talking about now because you go on, particularly in the author's note after the book, you talk about what it means to be of means. And I think. I don't want to give too much away, but I don't think this really is, but it's not just about money. Even though it comes,

Nancy Johnson: 34:02

Even though we're talking about middle class, upper middle class folks, but it's more than that.

Jason Blitman: 34:08

Yeah, can you Give us a version of what's in your author's note about what what being of means means to you?

Nancy Johnson: 34:15

Yeah, I think, I started out with, I always liked having a book title that has multiple layers of meaning. I did the same thing with The Kindest Lie with my first book. The lies we tell each other and, this kind of those small lies. Also speaking to the lies that America has told itself that it's better than it really is, so that's a kind lie as well. So

Jason Blitman: 34:41

That's a kind way of putting it,

Nancy Johnson: 34:42

Oh, I know but that's the way we think of it. We don't think of ourselves the way we really are. You know what I mean? There's always a way to justify it. There was a reason that we engaged in that conflict or we did that or you know what I'm saying? Oppress those people,

Jason Blitman: 34:55

Might you say the ends justify the means?

Nancy Johnson: 34:58

That's what people believe. But I think people of means I started out thinking about it as the socioeconomic factor, because in my books, I try to address both race and class. And this one, definitely the class piece primarily being people who are of Middle class upper middle class and then what that means to be black and a person of means I don't know if I can't remember how to put this in the author's note. But yeah, I think I did but thinking of Black people as people of means that was another layer of it I remember when I read Terry Jones book an American marriage and she dealt with that issue of she had other titles and I think it was her editor or someone at the publishing house that said what about an American marriage? And she was like, can I really call this an American marriage? Because I think sometimes when you're black in America, you don't always think that you can claim that as American, right? And so I also thought about that with people of means. Some people wouldn't think of, the black families in my book as all those are people of means, but they really were. First of all, just because of the socioeconomic background. But then the deeper meaning of it is you don't have to have money to have means, right? Just a passion and desire to make change in the world and to find your place in it. And you're a unique way of contributing to making the world better. And that's also when you have that and you're able to use that, you're also a person of means as well.

Jason Blitman: 36:26

Yeah.

Nancy Johnson: 36:26

Yeah

Jason Blitman: 36:27

thank you for articulating that.

Nancy Johnson: 36:29

sure. Sure. Because I think it's a challenge to everybody who reads it. It doesn't really matter what's in your bank account when it comes to being a person of needs.

Jason Blitman: 36:38

Yeah, it's inspiring.

Nancy Johnson: 36:40

Yeah. Yeah. Because think, right? Because I don't have the kind of money to maybe make huge changes and things by being a philanthropist by any means. But I, but there are things I can do in my own sphere of influence to make a difference. And that goes back to your very first question. And that is me using my pen to you. Make a difference, but also part of making a difference is getting people to think right and

Jason Blitman: 37:06

just going back, you literally just said, I'm not a philanthropist by any means. Well, No, but it's just so interesting that word comes up in ways that we don't even realize. And I think the book really pulls it apart in a way that makes you think.

Nancy Johnson: 37:25

Have conversations, like I said, that you wouldn't normally have and going back to my first book, The Kindest Lie, I did a book club with a white book club and there was a white woman there in that book club who said that she and her father had never been able to have a civil conversation ever about race in America. They always get into an argument. And so she said, I'm buying this book for him so that we can read it together and talk about it. And so I don't know how that turned out because I never spoke with her again. But that's the kind of thing where I'm like, wow, that's why I write. It's because I want to spark those kinds of conversations and connect people and get them talking about these things that really matter.

Jason Blitman: 38:04

Well, And it goes back to that earlier thing that I said, too, about humanizing these stories.

Nancy Johnson: 38:08

Humanizing. Yes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:10

It's they always say, until it's in your backyard, you don't necessarily think about it or care, There are beautiful and heartbreaking love stories in the book.

Nancy Johnson: 38:22

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:22

And there's a conversation about a solid blueprint for love. What makes a solid blueprint for love?

Nancy Johnson: 38:32

That's a good one. I don't even remember who said that now, which conversation it was, to be honest.

Jason Blitman: 38:37

That's okay. It's irrelevant to the book itself. I'm asking

Nancy Johnson: 38:40

I kind of remember because La Frida has two. love interests. And I don't know if there is one. I think we'd like to believe that there's a solid blueprint and a way to love and it's gonna all make sense. But it doesn't make sense. It's, I think what I'm showing is that it's not us. There is no real solid blueprint and that it's messy and it's complicated. And that the heart can go in many different directions in terms of love there's sensible love. There's love that's, not sensible. It doesn't make sense. It may not be what you. Believe you should choose you should do right and everybody may be telling you this is not the right way to go that you shouldn't love this person then the heart sometimes wants what it wants and right and it never goes away

Jason Blitman: 39:27

Yeah. It's interesting,

Nancy Johnson: 39:29

you make a different choice Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 39:32

While there might not be a blueprint, it is very interesting to think about how Sometimes stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason, and the way that we interact on the playground might be how we interact in real life with, and again, these things are historically paralleled, I think, in, in romance.

Nancy Johnson: 39:50

In romance. I know. I know. It's so true. I loved having the love stories in there, both Frida with Torn Between Two Loves, and then you've got Tulip and her love story as well. And it's always very complicated,

Jason Blitman: 40:06

yeah, and I think just the question of who, who are your people and are they and who are their people and are they a part of our people and

Nancy Johnson: 40:15

And the influence. Yeah, because that's also where I show some class distinctions there too, in some of the love stories that you read about, right?

Jason Blitman: 40:24

something else that for me was like sort of slap in the face of a parallel to what's happening in the world today is there's a moment in the book where Tulip's boss agrees with her about something, but she's not sure she agrees with him. I'm being very cryptic here because I don't want to give anything away, but what I will say is that in the world right now, I think a lot of people are saying the same thing. But we're saying it differently, and not everyone hears the same thing, even though we're really all saying the same thing, and there's this it's just the crux of what's happening in the world today, is what it feels like to me.

Nancy Johnson: 41:07

For what example in the world's name?

Jason Blitman: 41:10

Everybody wants to live a better life. Everybody wants to have more money. Everybody wants to be comfortable and protected.

Nancy Johnson: 41:21

Yeah. Yeah, we do. But we come at it from

Jason Blitman: 41:25

We all come at it from a different

Nancy Johnson: 41:27

Yeah, we come in from different ways, but there's that universality, I think, of what we all want, and I think that plays out in the book to what people want and what success means. What does it mean to live the American dream? Because I think we're all looking for that. I think the American dream is A theme and the book too. And that is that universal piece that I think everybody is striving for. But we get at it differently. Like conversations between Tulip and her boyfriend. Where they both are wanting some of the same things. But have different ideas about how to get there. How to achieve it. Same thing in the 50s, 60s storyline of what we want. And. How do we achieve it? And I think there was a divide back then in the black community of what are the ways to get there, right? We all want the same thing, but how we achieve it is going to be very different. Some were saying, we need to get out there and fight for it, challenge the government, be activists and demand our rights. And others saying you get your education, you get a good job, you better yourself. And that's how you lift Not only yourself, but your community. Right? And both can be true. I think. But There's definitely that push and pull of how to do it, the right way to do it. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 42:40

And it's so interesting because all of that sort of boils down to something where I had this moment, and I can't remember where I was in the book where I got to this. But if I could say what the book is about in the tiniest way, the book is about showing up. And the more I thought about that, I pieced it together with every plot point, with every storyline. And I've never done this in my reading experience before. I was like, Oh my God, I could succinctly say at the, yes, use it. Because seriously, Nancy, you put it to any piece in this book and I'm like, Oh my God. It's about showing up,

Nancy Johnson: 43:31

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:32

She didn't show up!

Nancy Johnson: 43:33

She didn't show up. Literally. Literally didn't show

Jason Blitman: 43:36

Literally! And

Nancy Johnson: 43:37

is showing up.

Jason Blitman: 43:39

I was like, oh my god, this is literally in every aspect of the book.

Nancy Johnson: 43:42

I think that's another problem is we judge people for the choices they make. Even today, how people choose to show up. Or to resist or, you know, or not resist. You know, There's a lot of judgment on what you choose to do or not do. And I wanted to explore that in the book, too.

Jason Blitman: 43:59

Yeah, absolutely. And not everybody shows up in the same way. In fact, we all have our own way of showing up and what that

Nancy Johnson: 44:05

do, you do, you know, Everybody can't give the same thing. But I think to understand where people are coming from, and then make your own choices, and what you're going to do and how you're going to show up.

Jason Blitman: 44:15

right

Nancy Johnson: 44:15

and I think that's where the characters got Frida got, I think, by the end of the book, she felt empowered to show up in the ways that she did. She wanted to show up in the world.

Jason Blitman: 44:24

yeah, absolutely. What a beautiful way to end.

Nancy Johnson: 44:27

Yeah

Jason Blitman: 44:28

Thank you so much for being here!

Nancy Johnson: 44:30

I could talk to you forever

Jason Blitman: 44:32

I'm so glad! I know I could talk to you forever too! And that's also the magical thing about this book. It just inspires so much conversation. There's a lot to unpack here.

Nancy Johnson: 44:39

Good. I love it. Thank you for having me and for reading so carefully and Revealing so many truths in the book. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 44:47

pleasure. Have a wonderful rest of your

Nancy Johnson: 44:50

All right. You too

44:51

I Am obsessed with the vibe that's going on. You're in this like, how would you describe the outfit that you're wearing? I consider myself. A renaissance princess, but this, I think, is more like Parisian. Like a 200 years old, like, 1900s can can dancer, honestly. Like something they'd wear and then take off dramatically in the Moulin Rouge. Yes! sitting in front of a beautiful upright piano, with like, a great painting behind you. There's a lot happening, and I am living for it. My geisha. This piano was my great grandmother's, I like, played some of my first ever piano on this piano at her house, She only passed away about a year ago and the whole family just decided I had to have the piano because I am the musician in the family. I mean, they obviously made the right choice. I am obsessed. And I, you are a relatively new singer songwriter to me, but listening to I got an exclusive listen to your new EP and I Love yeah Thank you so much and yes, I am very new I've had music come out but in terms of Just being in the industry, I'm still a baby. Yeah. So for our listeners, today's guest gay reader, who, as she just said, is new on the scene. So you might not have heard too much about her, but something that I'm obsessed with in your, like. wonderful bio as you hail from Austin. and you have navigated your life as an autistic woman and member of the LGBTQIA plus community, aiming to give voice not only to the traumas you endured, but the countless survivors who have faced similar challenges in their own lives. And I love that. McKenna Michaels. Hello. I call myself, um, Your favorite autistic bisexual princess, I dubbed myself that. You don't know me yet, if you do know me, then you know it's true. If you don't know me yet, it will become true. So I didn't know I was talking to royalty today. We love the bisexual princesses of the world. Yes. My favorite thing is like, I went out to, a gay bar in Austin. It's called Cheer Up Charlie's. I love it. I love it so much, and they had karaoke. They do like this monthly karaoke, and I, I went, and all the, like, I, all the lesbians were sitting there like, so like, You're bi. I'm like, yes. And they're like, so are you on the spectrum? I'm like, yes, I am! How did you know? I'm like, that makes sense. Every, apparently every bisexual is either ADHD or autism, if you didn't know, so. Listen, we love, and we learn something new every day, fantastic. McKenna, as today's guest gay reader, I have to ask, what are you reading? Okay, I have two very exciting things for you. Tell me. Two very exciting things for you. The first one, there's this little short webcomic that's ongoing, still happening, it is also queer media. Okay? Um, it's the Bunny series, which sounds so cute, so happy Wrong! Not happy, not cute, okay? Um, the user is bunlops on Instagram. And I came about, like, I was scrolling through Reels, and so it's this format, it's like, drawn comics. Like one panel at a time with the words of what the characters are saying Um with this story and so basically like with no spoilers to sum it up It's about this character they created named bunny. He is the cutest little guy Um, who becomes very not cute and very scary over the course of these events that happened to him in this comic. And he has this friend Bebe, who I would not call a friend, um, a boyfriend named Rip. And then it also covers like a couple other characters, but then the big bad in the series right now, I would consider to be, um, Bebe's, boyfriend, angel. Um, and like one of the first things that they say in this book is what happens. It's not a book. It's like a web series. Yeah, sure. What what happens like over the course of this leads to Bunny getting something called a trepanation, which is for people that don't know like a frontal lobotomy But instead of going in through your nose, they just drill a hole in your forehead. Oh, cool. Okay. No, so yeah But the story is just so good and so addictive and it also like The main character is gay and it makes me so happy because I'm like, oh look, happiness. Oh no, sadness. Oh my God. What is happening? And so very well written. Um, very short. There's not a whole lot of content out there yet. Like you could read through the whole thing probably in a couple, an hour or two, maybe. I think if you scroll through Reels, but really good. Very excellent. Love it. The second thing I'm reading, I am catching up on Lore Olympus. If you know what Lore Olympus is. I don't tell me more. Oh my goodness, it is a webtoon that took the internet by storm a few years ago. basically this fan retelling by Rachel Smythe, who is An absolute sweet human being. She's awesome. I love her. But um, this this thing has like billions of reads is a new york times bestseller at this point But when it started it just started as this webtoon online webtoon About the greek gods like a retelling of the greek gods kind of in this modern setting with like parallels of the ancient greek Fashion every now and then but generally they have like cell phones in the underworld and all these things. Um, and there's some changes to the storyline, of course, to make it more like, like Persephone and Hades in the real lore are, I think she's his niece, which is weird, but I think in the, in the book, it's not like that. So it's kind of their story with side character stories and everything but it's really, really well done. Really addictive. Love. I also had no idea what a webtoon was, and so I just Googled it. A webtoon, for the listeners, it is a type of episodic digital comic that originated in South Korea. It's meant to be read on smartphones. How fascinating. A ton of stories I would recommend if you download Webtoon. Tower of God is incredible, they just made an anime out of it. Okay. Super amazing, super well done. It's so interesting because they're designed, the fact that it's designed to be read on your phone, like books are not designed to be read on your phone and a lot of people do. So for, for that to be a new way of exploring reading is so cool. wait, you not only are. a singer and have an EP that I want to hear more about in a minute. You also have a comic series. Tell me more. my song Survivor is, a song that I say saved my life. There's a couple things that I talk about on my platform very openly. two of them being autism and bisexuality, of course. And then the third one, um, is a little bit heavier. And, I talk about it openly because I feel like it. Not only helps me heal, but can give other people their own voice surrounding situations they've been through. Um, I was taken away from my mom when I was 15 out of an abusive situation. And I had a lot of healing to do. I still have a lot of healing to do. And she and I didn't talk for 10 years. And I'm lucky that now on the other side of things, we're able to have a relationship. I can talk to her. she was just here this week and we got to hang out and it was amazing. And, um, I'm really fortunate to have her in my life again in that capacity, because I know that sometimes. I think that sometimes, um, and not always, and I think it's kind of dangerous to say this because there's some people that might sit there and think about it this way, but I'm going to say it for my own situation. That sometimes people, um, if you've ever heard the saying, hurt people, hurt people, I think that was very true for her. And, and sometimes that's not true. Sometimes there are just bad people that will hurt you just to hurt you, and, and it was never the case with her. with my mom and, I'm lucky that she did her own work so that we can have a relationship as an adult, um, as two adults but that being said, it took 10 years of not speaking to each other to, for both of us to be in a place where we can now and, For me, what came about is a lot of periods of ups and downs. And I was in this really particularly low period in my life where I didn't think that I was going to get out of it. I was having a lot of, ideation about not wanting to be here anymore, to put it gently, and I eventually had enough strength and inspiration to start writing songs again. I had been in this like lull of not. Writing, because I can't hear music when I'm in that mindset. Sure. Um, and I wrote this song called Survivor. I showed it to my manager. And he heard it and immediately goes, You need to meet Michelle. And I'm like, who's Michelle? I'll talk to Michelle any day. What's, what's going on with Michelle? I'm ready. Michelle is an Austin local. She is 26 years old. She's about 4'11 90 pounds, like tiny, tiny girl. Um, the strongest person I have ever met in my entire life. Like, she would no joke. Find a way to carry you across the desert if you needed her to because she is that amazing of a woman. Michelle had a stroke at five weeks old. She has cerebral palsy and epilepsy as a result of that stroke. but to deal with that, one of the things that she does is she draws, and she draws beautifully. And what we decided to do, my manager came up with this idea, because I am a massive comic nerd, I love anime, I've been cosplaying for 11 years now. My manager wanted to tie in something authentic like that into the way that we brand myself and, and um, That was something that he came up with was, what if we wrote a comic book where in this universe, Michelle is the creator, and is using this book and what she writes as a means to find her own inner strength and fight off these metaphorical demons that she deals with. in her everyday existence. and so in the lore of all of my music, in my music videos, in my, um, in my book, which they're all tied together. From the very first song that we released, it's all tied together. I am a fictional character. I don't exist. McKenna Michaels is not real within the world of my music, and uh, instead, Michelle writes these stories, these backstories for me, these adventures for me, and I'm the stand in for the strength that she desires but actually has. And that she's writing these stories to find it. And it's a fictionalized version of real events and There's two amazing artists on the interior to display both worlds. So you have Terry Parr who creates Michelle's world then John Lucas who draws the world in which I reside and it's it's all very fun very dark, but also very real and and talks about a lot of real and we have One book out right now, and two that are coming out with this upcoming EP. And, um, I will tell you, because you know you don't have to cut this out, they are for both of the songs that you mentioned to me earlier. How funny! Yeah, I know. I'm very excited. Oh my god! I'm like a psychic. Slash, maybe I have good taste. Yeah, yeah. I think it's both. Wait, so talk to me about this new EP. You have one out. This is the new one. Tell me everything. What's it called? We don't have a release date yet. So, this EP is called Revolution, and I'm very excited about it. I have been we've been putting this together for two And a half years. Oh my gosh I released my album enlightenment my full length album two and a half years ago And we started I started writing from that point basically writing these songs and putting them together and then Um, we finished recording about a year ago. There's like a 30 minute music video cutting together the story. Um, Basically of what's going on in the mckenna universe and michelle's universe at this time But it's a continuation of that story. So where it leaves off in the comic we come back a few months later with the new side of michelle's story as well as in A couple music videos that explore, the aftermaths of the comic book. So this time, instead of the comic and the music video being they coincide each other, like they're at the same time, they're happening at the same time. This time, the comic book is finished by the music video. So, to finish the story of the comic book, you have to watch the music video, to get that full ending, full resolution of what's going on. Fascinating. Very fun. Well, it's like this really cool, like, Marvel universe, where it's not Well, but it's, it's multidisciplinary, right? Like it's not just reading the comics. It's also hearing the music. It's also watching the music videos. There is, it's, uh, just. a lot of ways to experience the story and that's so cool. Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's been really fun to put everything together and, um, can I tell you, can I, can I tell you one frustrating gay fact? Yes, please. So I told you I've been putting this together for like two and a half years, okay? The main theme of this album Is this beautiful suit of armor that we put together. My friend Aaron Mardison, very talented foam smith, he's a cosplayer, he's fantastic. So we put together, I hand drew this design for this armor, beautiful, like, he made it so gorgeous, I cannot wait for people to see it in these music videos. So we're like, getting ready to put together this release date for the music video that features the suit of armor and Miss Chapel Rowan wore a suit of armor to the VMAs and I I had a meltdown because I love her. I am in love with her I love her music so much as someone who also dresses in that type of fashion. I was so frustrated Yeah Yeah, well, this is gonna be great. So that's my frustrating gay fact is that we've been working hard to do this and I'm just scared now that people are going to compare me to Chapel Rowan or say I'm copying her. But you heard it here first. I did not copy Chapel. We put this together two years ago. Okay. Yeah, seriously. Well, and it's so interesting to like, it's, I always ask my guest gay readers, you know, what's an a grievance that they need to air and that's a fantastic one. Um, but It's there, there's room in the universe for lots of pop icons. There's room in the universe for lots of R& B icons. There's room in the universe for, you know, our, how would you describe the icon ness that you, uh, fill? I think that Chapel fills that Lady Gaga Madonna style very well I think that is the perfect place to put her. I would put me more on the Florence and the Machine like Paris Paloma type of Yeah, and sometimes I have a little bit more. I think my music's a little bit more like Adele sounding than that music style is. But in terms of my fashion and my stage presence, I'd put myself more there. Sometimes I'll do like the fun thing. Like I did a fairy on stage or I'll wear a full Marie Antoinette dress and stuff like that. But generally it's like these flowy robes and corsets and stuff like that. We're definitely two different sides of things. And I am because I love her so much. And I, I think that, Artistic expression, but also queer expression, is just starting to find its place across the different medias. and I think there is now more than ever room for more and more. musicians and, and voices to be heard. So I'm, I'm honestly like, it was frustrating at first, but now I'm kind of sitting here going, what if chapel and I just like both wore our suits of armor and, and battled it out on stage? McKenna, I'm so excited for you. I'm thrilled to have learned about you and I can't wait for my listeners to check out your stuff. I, as far as I'm aware, you are on wherever you listen to your music because that I have found you where I listen to my music. Yes. And my first single from this EP is out. It's called, I don't know, you should listen to it. thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so, so much for having me. It means so much. I really appreciate it. You look fab. I cannot wait for everyone to hear revolution, tell us where we could follow you. Ooh, okay. I am McKenna Michaels Music on all platforms. Um, Michaels without the A, so it's M I C H E L S. Um, and then on Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you listen to your stuff, it's just McKenna Michaels. Fab. Thank you, Nancy. Thank you, McKenna. Everyone have a great rest of your day. I will see you next week. Bye!