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Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Hello, and welcome to Gaze Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode, we have Karissa Chen, the author of Homeseeking, which was January's Good Morning America's book club pick, and Paul Lissicki, whose book Songs So Wild and Blue comes out today. Their bios are in the show notes. There has been so much in the news these days about deep fakes, and so I'm gonna release my live conversation with the author Sarah Sligar, who talks to me about her book Vantage Point, which is all about deep fakes. So I'm gonna release that later this week. If you're not already following GaysReading on Instagram, you're gonna want to do that because next week I have an insane giveaway that will be posted there. And you can also find us over on Blue Sky. Kay's Reading, wherever you find your things. we're also over on YouTube, so you can watch this conversation over on YouTube as well. While you are doing the things and supporting this little indie podcast, it would mean so much if you could like and subscribe to Kay's Reading wherever you get your podcasts. Not only does it help with the algorithm, but you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops, which, as you know, one is happening this week. week. And I mention it all the time, but if you could also leave a five star review when you have a chance, especially on Apple Podcasts, that, again, means so much and is super, super helpful. I had someone reach out to me recently saying that it's a little confusing how to get to writing a review on Apple Podcasts. And so if you are on there and you click Gaze Reading underneath the episode title, so you know, the one that's running right now, and then it'll take you to the main page, and you scroll to the bottom of that, you go past the last few episodes, and, uh, that's where you'll see the sort of stars, you can click the stars and then type a review, thank you in advance, thank you to those of you who have done that already, And now without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Karissa Chen and Paul Lisicki.

Jason Blitman: 2:29

Karissa, welcome to Gay's Reading. Here to talk to me about home seeking.

Karissa Chen: 2:36

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 2:41

Touched it and I'm like thrilled about it because I've been like rifling through the galley and like bending it and marking it up and everything. So I'm like, I felt like I needed to hold up the finished copy now and it's so beautiful.

Karissa Chen: 2:53

yeah, I, you know what, it's so funny, I like, don't even have a finished copy. I think I, I just have my galley that I'm just like, it's totally messed up stuff at this point.

Jason Blitman: 3:02

yeah, when you do finally get your finished copy, the texture is very nice.

Karissa Chen: 3:06

Yay. I'm glad to hear that.

Jason Blitman: 3:09

too many things to talk about, but before we properly dive in about the book, this is something that we could talk about probably the whole hour that we're together, the last five years and musicals. Welcome to Gay's Reading. This is all we're going to talk about. So, You, in the information that your publicist sends, in every interview that you've done, you've brought up the last five years as the inspiration for the structure of the book, which we'll talk about in a minute. But let's talk about the last five years. When did you first learn about it? Have you seen a production? Do you know it's coming to Broadway this year? I

Karissa Chen: 3:47

up and people are like, huh, like what does this have to do with anything? Yes. I think like I was, so I was dating a guy who is a composer and he was really into musical, obviously he's like composing musical theater, and I had not heard of this musical at the we started dating in, I don't remember, like 2000, I don't know, 17 or something like that. I don't even remember the date, the timeline anymore, but like right around when I was starting this book And I had heard of Parade, obviously, but I hadn't heard of it in the last five years, so I think it's a little bit more under the radar. And he was like, if you like Parade you should listen to this this is like a cult classic, and I was like, alright, I'll give it a go. And the first time I listened to it, I have to admit, I didn't love it. Some of the songs are great, and then some of them are, like, a little less great, and that Jamie guy seems like a total dick which he is.

Jason Blitman: 4:35

yeah

Karissa Chen: 4:36

I was like, why would I listen to this? But then I don't know, there's something about it that I kept coming back to. And, when I was at this residency, I was just like, Oh my god, I'm just gonna keep listening to it. But yeah, it's Just like the structure is really innovative. I just loved so much about how like we really get to understand their relationship and we get this like feeling of like you want to root for them, but you know how it ends. Ends up and then you're mad and then you're mad at them and like him and I don't know. It's just yeah so I listened to both versions of the albums that are and I was like comparing which one do I like better? And then like during covid they had that like covid production. Did you see

Jason Blitman: 5:15

Oh, I didn't watch it, but I'm very aware of what you're talking

Karissa Chen: 5:18

my god, that was so good that one was like really good because Yeah, they did like they shot it in one go or whatever in like this tiny little cramped room Yeah. And I was like, this is like very innovative. Like I was very impressed because it was like a way to bring theater in during COVID, which I was like, this is amazing. And then it came to Taiwan a couple of years ago. And so I dragged my husband to go see it and yeah. And so that was fun. And then, yeah, now it's coming to Broadway. And I was like, Nick Jonas, but okay. Like I'll still see it. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 5:51

yeah Adrienne Warren, who's playing Kathy, she's gonna be great. So that's fine. And then there was the movie with Anna

Karissa Chen: 5:58

Oh my god. Yes. I forgot about that. Yes, I did watch the movie and I love Jeremy Jordan. I like Anna Kendrick too, like in her movies and stuff like that. I think she's fun, but she's like not my ideal Kathy, and like Jeremy Jordan's a little like too sexy for me to like I was like, yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 6:17

Yeah. It's so interesting because you say you were like debating on which cast recording you liked better. And as someone who like came of age listening to the original off Broadway cast recording, I like That, to me, is the definitive version. But what's so also funny is that you said, how could anyone like the character of Jamie? Jason Robert Brown basically wrote it based on his own life. And so in turn, he's Jamie and in turn, not very likable. And you're like, dude, what are you

Karissa Chen: 6:45

know. There was like, I, then I like read about the whole like lawsuit behind it, where like his ex like sued him and he had to change a bunch of the songs. And I was like, this is very juicy for like a little like off Broadway. I was like very juicy.

Jason Blitman: 7:01

you, You always had a love of musical theater?

Karissa Chen: 7:03

Yes, I always loved musical theater. My mom would play Andrew Lloyd Webber compilations a lot when I was growing up. And so I really wanted to see Phantom of the Opera and. And my mom finally promised me that for my eighth birthday, I could see the Phantom of the Opera. So that was the first musical I ever saw. And then after that, I was like, I want to see Les Mis. It was like all the things. So I was just like, because I would listen to these soundtracks and not know what it would look like. So I would imagine what it would be like, and then going to see the real thing. It was so different than what I imagined, but I was like, Oh my God, so magical. So yeah, I'm like,

Jason Blitman: 7:44

Does your husband appreciate it, or does he go kicking and screaming with you?

Karissa Chen: 7:49

He will go with me. So like I said, he's Taiwanese. So he's not he doesn't really speak English or understand English. So we have to go see like the the productions in Taiwan where they have subtitles or like what I've done for him before is Oh, like for instance, I really wanted to see Wicked, but I was like, I don't. It hasn't come to Taiwan, but now that the movie is out, I took him to see the movie while we were in Taiwan so that he would like at least have like the background, like the version with the subtitles in the movie. And I was like, once part two comes out and we've seen both parts, then we'll go see like the musical on Broadway so that you get it. And I think he,

Jason Blitman: 8:24

so cute!

Karissa Chen: 8:25

yeah, I think he enjoys it, but I think it's just more like he, he like never grew up with it. So he's like. Trying to catch up to what it is about it that I'm like so into yeah

Jason Blitman: 8:37

What is it that you're so into?

Karissa Chen: 8:39

I don't even know you know what like I just I love everything about it. I love like the music I love like the production like the razzle dazzle of it all

Jason Blitman: 8:49

And I ask'cause there are some people that I know who are like allergic to musicals. The idea of people like breaking out into song and dance, they just cannot

Karissa Chen: 8:57

I

Jason Blitman: 8:58

their minds around.

Karissa Chen: 8:59

I just love it. I think like you know it feels like to me the way Like, if we were less self conscious maybe that's how we would be, there are times when I do want to break out into song because I'm so happy or I'm so sad,

Jason Blitman: 9:12

I was gonna say, your emotions are so big that there's only, you have to release it in some

Karissa Chen: 9:16

yeah, and I love that that's how musicals sh Do that thing, like they're like, like this emotion, this moment is so heightened that the only possible way that it can be portrayed is through song. That is the only way. And it's Yeah, it's not subtle, but we have other subtle forms of media, but

Jason Blitman: 9:34

There's room for all of it.

Karissa Chen: 9:35

Exactly. So that's why we like you know, K dramas and stuff too, right? Because like the heightened emotion, I think sometimes for some people I get it, like it feels too over the top or whatever. But I think that like sometimes it is nice to feel like the feeling that you're holding quietly inside you displayed in this big blown out way. And the number of times that I sang on my own by myself in the bathtub because my crush didn't like me back, like there is no other way I could have expressed myself.

Jason Blitman: 10:10

That's incredible. Oh my god. I'm obsessed. Did you ever perform?

Karissa Chen: 10:17

So I did musical theater in high school. I was not like, I'm not the best actress or whatever. So I was always in the chorus, but

Jason Blitman: 10:24

shows did you do in high school?

Karissa Chen: 10:26

I did 42nd street in Oklahoma.

Jason Blitman: 10:28

Oh! Classic!

Karissa Chen: 10:30

And then I was in the stage crew for guys and dolls. And then I did,

Jason Blitman: 10:34

Every high school does Guys and Dolls.

Karissa Chen: 10:36

yeah, yes, I don't know. It's a very

Jason Blitman: 10:38

single high school.

Karissa Chen: 10:39

every,

Jason Blitman: 10:40

about gambling.

Karissa Chen: 10:41

It's yes, perfect. Yeah, and like lots of women. I don't know. Yeah, and then we did one that was oh my god Now I'm totally blanking out what it's called. I had to wear a blonde wig for it because everyone was blonde Oh my god, what was it called

Jason Blitman: 10:54

about? Do you remember?

Karissa Chen: 10:56

a blonde girl a blonde showgirl and then her like blonde friends And then they're on like a cruise

Jason Blitman: 11:01

Crazy for you? No.

Karissa Chen: 11:04

I don't remember

Jason Blitman: 11:05

brown f anything goes?

Karissa Chen: 11:07

What it wasn't

Jason Blitman: 11:08

I'll think about it. We'll get there.

Karissa Chen: 11:10

Oh yeah, I blocked this one from my, yeah, I blocked this one from my memory because I was like, I wore a short bob, like a pink bob, through the whole thing, and it was when I was at my high school in Hong Kong, so we were all Asian girls, wearing these short pink bobs, that was just like, it was very weird, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 11:30

okay. If my listeners have made it this far, they're like, why are we talking about musicals in every, like I said, in all of your interviews, you talked about last five years, inspiring home seeking or inspiring the structure of home seeking. And if anyone is very familiar with the last five years, you saying that, is not a spoiler, but it is a little an Easter egg for something to expect perhaps in the middle of the book. So I was excited to see that structure coming to fruition. Okay, for listeners who have not picked up the book yet, which I don't know what you've been waiting for, because at the point of this episode getting released, it's been out for Two months now. Can you tell us your elevator pitch for Home Seeking?

Karissa Chen: 12:10

Yeah, so Homesicking is about two childhood friends who grew up in the same Shanghainese neighborhood during the Sino Japanese War, so that's like the 1930s and 40s, and they grow up together, they fall in love they have these dreams of having a future together and being married, but before that can happen, the Chinese Civil War breaks out and they are separated. Haiwen, the male character, he ends up joining the army and he, ends up in, in Taiwan, and Tzu Chi ends up in Hong Kong, and they meet again in their 70s in L. A. And at that point in time, they are exploring the possibility of having a second chance together. And while that seems like I gave a lot away, actually a lot of it is told up front,

Jason Blitman: 12:53

yeah, a lot of that is very early on in the book and then it's really about, it becomes the story about these people and the lives that they've lived leading up to that point. You just talked about Dreams. Your website, which is gorgeous, by the way calls yourself a writer, an editor, and a dreamer. What are some of the, what are, what do you dream of?

Karissa Chen: 13:15

I think I'm a very like romantic, like a hopeless romantic. That's what all my friends would say, that I'm a hopeless romantic and an idealist. And I always am like, I'm always like thinking about what can I do like next in my life? I'm always thinking about I have these like ideas of like, where am I gonna go? And what am I gonna do in the future? I also think I also have a lot of like nightmares. I'm like, I'm very, I don't think everybody has this. And I don't I didn't realize this until recently that not everybody has. dreams every single night that they can remember. And I have very vivid dreams and I also very vivid nightmares.

Jason Blitman: 13:50

I'm going to say that I think that means you also sleep well.

Karissa Chen: 13:54

does it

Jason Blitman: 13:54

cause you only hit your dreams when you're in your REM cycle. And I feel like I probably don't like sleep consistently enough to get to there. But okay. So you're very good at remembering your dreams and your nightmares.

Karissa Chen: 14:08

yeah, like my husband is I don't, I've never had a dream. He's had one dream in his life that he remembers or something like that. And I like have nightly, like dreams that I remember and like very vivid dreams, very vivid nightmares. And so I think it's both literal in that sense of I am a dreamer that I like remember my dreams. But I also, yeah, I am someone who's like very like hopelessly romantic and like, I just always. I'm thinking about what is the next thing that I can do in my life and

Jason Blitman: 14:33

I love not only that's true for you, but I love that is a way in which you define yourself. Because I think that's a very optimistic way of seeing the world, which I think is super cool.

Karissa Chen: 14:43

I am pretty optimistic Most people that it's,

Jason Blitman: 14:46

Something about the book that is magical slash stressed me out is, it's this deep story of reconnection. And I'm curious if you have had an experience like that in your life, where you were reconnected to a person, a, an object, a space that changed you or affected you in a way that was surprising.

Karissa Chen: 15:12

I love that question. I feel like I feel like I could probably answer that in multiple ways because I do feel like I'm I love like the coincidence of like reconnection or like this feeling of like, kismet in certain ways. The one that is popping to mind really quickly, that is not the one that I would have thought would pop to mind, but this is really funny. I, like my first quote unquote boyfriend in ninth grade, like we like dated for like literally a week or something like that, and it was like very dramatic for all the reasons that you can imagine when you're 14. And then it was like, we hated each other and whatever. And he was really mean to me and then all his friends are really mean to me and all these, it's very stupid. And then one day, like many years later, I was sitting at a Starbucks and I was writing and I look up and, I was at one of those communal tables and I look up and sitting right across from me is that guy and I look at him And I said his name and he looked at me. He said, Karissa, and we just started chatting, we just started talking and it was like a really great conversation, he was telling me about what his wife was doing and who's married by then. And I was telling him I was writing and taking it very seriously. And it was just a really great conversation. And eventually we started talking about being 14 and how stupid it was. And and I don't know, it just, it wasn't like I had been harboring this like I need foreclosure with this person for all those years. But it was so nice to run into him and talk about it and have this conversation and acknowledge how silly we were, but also that like we had heard each other in certain ways. And it just, and like to find out that he was doing all right and I was doing all right and all that. It was a total coincidence, but then it felt right, it felt like the universe had thrown us together in that Space to be able to talk that out and I don't know I just really liked it. Like I felt really peace like at peace after that.

Jason Blitman: 17:11

I love that happened to you. I love that came to mind. I think things like that happen to me, I don't want to say all the time, but it feels like things happen. That's not an unusual occurrence for me. And so when things like that happen in books, I see that as Totally normal, and I know there are other people, not dissimilar from what you were saying about dreams, who like, those sorts of things just never happen to them, and so it, it, in turn, when it happens in a story, it seems so unrealistic. And so I'm just excited that came to mind.

Karissa Chen: 17:44

yeah, I think so because I've had conversations with people about coincidence and fiction and some people can't tolerate it because they're like, that doesn't happen. And it's so unrealistic, and it's too much. And I'm like, I get it. I do understand why sometimes coincidences feel contrived. But A, I think oftentimes, like stories operate on coincidence, right? Like you have to make things happen.

Jason Blitman: 18:07

It is a story.

Karissa Chen: 18:08

It's a story, right? If you just narrated your daily life, it'd be extremely boring. But B I do think coincidences happen. And I think the interesting thing to me about coincidences that happen in real life is that we're the ones that assign meaning to it, right? You could choose to just see it as it just, happened to be that way. But if you think about all the major things that have happened in your life. A lot of them turn on a coincidence, right? If I hadn't been in this particular place, if I hadn't met this particular person, then I wouldn't be where I am today. And it's only in retrospect that you look back and you're like, you either feel like, oh, that was a coincidence or you feel like, oh, like it was meant to be. And that depends upon like your way of seeing the world. Think that as humans, we crave meaning. So at least for me my impetus is to assign meaning to things, even if maybe it totally is just a coincidence.

Jason Blitman: 19:00

And not even just assign meaning to things, but also the fact that you ran into this guy, it doesn't have to quote unquote mean something, but it is the universe saying, here's a moment of reconnection, which I guess is a meaning.

Karissa Chen: 19:17

Yeah, it's not it's not like the meaning is like, you should marry this But it's definitely hey there was this, and I don't think I realized that I Wanted that resolution until we were reconnected. Like I said, I wasn't like I was like pining over this like situation years later, but once we had talked it through, and that was laid to rest. I was like, That's great. Like I never have. I can look at this part of my life in a completely different light now because it's ended in a different way than it had ended. It had ended in a really ugly way where we're like mean to each other. And in my mind, he like bullied me or got his friends to bully me or whatever it was right. But like instead it now had this other resolution where I could feel happier about it.

Jason Blitman: 19:59

And not to say you were losing sleep over it,

Karissa Chen: 20:00

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:01

it still just was it changed the ending of that story. Yeah. You said that you're surprised that's what came to mind. Is there like a genre of something that you had really more expected to think about?

Karissa Chen: 20:15

I think,

Jason Blitman: 20:16

Do you know what I mean?

Karissa Chen: 20:17

Yeah, I thought, I think because I would think if I, if you gave me more time to think about this let's say I was answering this in a written interview, I probably would have picked out something that is like more meaningful to my life as a whole, right? Like a connection with A guy that I do pine over, or I did pine over, or

Jason Blitman: 20:35

Did Lou sleep over?

Karissa Chen: 20:36

Lose sleep over, or something with friends, friend connections and things like that. Things that really did impact me. And I'm, and I think that if I really sat down and thought a bit like, later, after we're done with this interview, I'll probably be like, Oh, I should have brought this one up instead. This one's way cooler.

Jason Blitman: 20:50

No, there's something fun about it being so benign, and that's what's so special to me is that like these things just happen. And it's actually funny that you said that's not the first thing that came to mind, or you're surprised it's the first thing that came to mind for you. The first thing that came to mind for me when I was thinking about this question yesterday is the like blanket that I slept with as a child my mom had in storage for many years and then later gave it back to me and so now it's just like sitting in my closet. But receiving that for the first time and like feeling it, just remembering what it felt like, that meant so much to me. That was the first thing that came to mind. But as we're sitting here talking a gift that a dear friend gave me years ago now. I have these childhood home videos where I'm puppeteering a marionette Mickey Mouse. And it was like, very impactful for me as a kid. And then 20 years go by, and one of my best friends, gifted me from eBay, the Marionette Mickey Mouse, and even though it wasn't the exact same thing, like opening that and seeing that, it is one of the most meaningful gifts that anyone has ever given to me, because it just it punched me in the gut in such a surprising way,

Karissa Chen: 21:55

Did you cry? Yeah. I would've cried.

Jason Blitman: 21:59

Yeah. Again, it like took me by surprise. I didn't, I never even thought that I'd ever see that in the flesh again,

Karissa Chen: 22:06

Aww. Love

Jason Blitman: 22:07

And having experiences like that in my real life, I think, heightened reading Homesicking for me.

Karissa Chen: 22:14

I'm glad.

Jason Blitman: 22:15

In other interviews, you've talked about the title taking a minute to come to you, that you are never going to unearth what some of your original titles were. I'm not going to harrass you into them, even though I'm very curious. But there's something so interesting to me about the word seeking. I'm curious what does seeking home mean to you?

Karissa Chen: 22:34

Yeah. Huh. That's a really great question. I Am someone who also moved around a bit when I was younger. And I think I've always struggled with that question of what does it mean to have a home? Because I thought I knew what it was when I just lived in one place and I had all my friends around me, but then I moved and I resisted it. I was like, this is not home. But I think that we, Like humans have a desire to want to create roots, right? Like space that feels like a place where they belong and. Without my consent, I ended up starting to feel like, okay, this, this new place is like home, but and then you end up leaving that and you're like, Oh my God, I'm just like leaving like places that I thought I, had come to feel was mine and I'm leaving again and I'm leaving bits of part of me. And then I'm leaving, things that cannot be replaced wherever I go. I miss something about some place. And I just think for me, after a while, I started to feel like I didn't know where I belonged or, like, where home was. And searching for that not just searching, right? Because searching if you're making that distinction between the word seeking and searching, to me searching feels like, oh you're just looking for something. In a way,

Jason Blitman: 23:59

Like it was lost.

Karissa Chen: 24:00

like it was lost and like you're trying to but seeking is like this like You know, you are really, yes, it's a searching, but it's also there's something like laser focused about trying to seek. I don't know. I don't know how to like, do you know what I'm

Jason Blitman: 24:14

I do. I think I, what I'm hearing from you is that home seeking is more about a feeling.

Karissa Chen: 24:20

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:22

let's say home searching, you're like looking for something specific. Whereas home seeking is more like you'll know it when you feel it.

Karissa Chen: 24:28

Yeah. Like you're trying to. Claim something for yourself and I think that's why I have been asked in interviews like what does home mean to you and to be honest, like I am still trying to figure that out I'm someone who spends most of my time in Taiwan, but I grew up in the States and Every time I come back to the States, it very much feels like home to me but now so much of my life is in Taiwan and like I am still figuring out what home means to me and Trying to like that process of finding out not just Where, the where of it, but also what the definition of it is part of that, that seeking.

Jason Blitman: 25:03

Well, I mean, Even you saying it coming to the States, it feels like home to you. I'm, I think through the same thing, right? Moving from New York, I go back to New York and it quote unquote feels like home to me, but I guess I've never even sat to think what does it feeling like home mean? And you're right. And is that important? And is it that I have friends here? Is it that I'm comfortable in the city that I can get around? I don't maybe yes to all of that, but also is it like A missing piece of myself that where I feel comfortable there is that, it doesn't need to be the four walls of a building that are a space that I'm living in. As a person who's moved around a lot since leaving New York City, I'm constantly trying to figure out what home means to me because it, it has never been a space,

Karissa Chen: 25:50

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's part of it. Yeah. Like for me, it's I realized that different places bring out different sides of me. And like that comfort of being like, Oh, like when I'm here, I can be myself in this way. And when I'm in this other place, I can be myself in this way. But I think part of what I find frustrating sometimes is like there is no place at this point. I don't feel like there's any place where I feel like, Oh, I'm always wholly myself. Um, And so does that mean that I don't have any home or does that mean that I have multiple homes, but they're just Different. They speak to different parts of me.

Jason Blitman: 26:30

and it's interesting cause like the reuniting of Tzu Chi and Hai Wen, they're able to fill in gaps for each other that haven't existed for decades. And so even though they clearly don't complete each other's home, literally, you know, whatever. There is that sort of history that comes into play, which is so interesting.

Karissa Chen: 26:53

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:55

the book as well, obviously, is about memories, and I think home, as we're I think, each unpacking for ourselves, is about memories, right? You go back to the States, a lot of it is about memories. I go back to New York, a lot of it is about memories. And I feel at points, these characters are also trying to suppress memories,

Karissa Chen: 27:11

Yes. Yes. Totally.

Jason Blitman: 27:12

Because sometimes memories

Karissa Chen: 27:15

Are painful.

Jason Blitman: 27:15

very painful. And there are other things too that I think are like, things can be so deeply a part of us that we don't even remember how they came to be,

Karissa Chen: 27:27

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Jason Blitman: 27:32

Do you have that? Are there things, obviously you might not even remember because you don't remember how they came to

Karissa Chen: 27:37

It's interesting because I do feel like I have these really distinct memories of being like around five or whatever, and like staring in the mirror and staring at really like for a really long time and just being like, how am I me? Like, why do people call me my name? And like, why is it that when they call my name, they're like, They see this like I remember having this like existential crisis as a five year old and just staring in the mirror for a really long time, like not really understanding or like trying to wrap my little head around the fact that like I am who I am and that somebody gave me a name and then that was just like that's it like that's your name and that's who you are and

Jason Blitman: 28:17

When's your birthday?

Karissa Chen: 28:18

May 27th, I'm a Gemini.

Jason Blitman: 28:20

That's so funny. Okay, mine is April 6th, and I'm an Aries, but my husband is a Gemini. And so these sort of, I'm, I feel none

Karissa Chen: 28:28

get it now.

Jason Blitman: 28:29

I 100 percent get it. Okay.

Karissa Chen: 28:32

You're like, I get it

Jason Blitman: 28:33

No, cause I feel like I did a version of that too.

Karissa Chen: 28:36

It's yeah, and it's really interesting now because I have a two year old and watching him come into his conscience of Of who he is, this consciousness of Oh my name is whatever, and he responds to that name, and or like, even being cognizant of the way that like, we talk about him to himself in the way because I realize that we're telling him a story about himself that is shaping like his own conception of himself, right? So being careful of being like, Oh, you're really good at this, or Oh, you're very smart at this because I don't want him to think like, Oh, this is like who I am before he's decided who he is. But But like seeing that happen in real time is really interesting because I know that all the stories we tell him now, all the things that we're doing now, like he won't remember, right? Because he's two. So like most of the these memories are going to be gone. He won't remember the first time that like he realized that this is his name or like whatever. And yet this is an active part of making him into who he is, which is a lot of responsibility and terrifying.

Jason Blitman: 29:40

Yeah!

Karissa Chen: 29:41

because I'm like, Oh, we all went through this. Like we all were told stories about ourselves that are now integrated into our sense of self.

Jason Blitman: 29:48

And and again, so much of Home Seeking is about that, is about family, is about, how we each make up who we are and I know that when you started the book, you said, I think in your acknowledgments, that your son wasn't even a thought.

Karissa Chen: 30:05

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:06

And then you finish the book, you're doing copy edits, and you have a child.

Karissa Chen: 30:10

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 30:11

What was that journey like for you, writing this deeply rooted in family story to end with having a family?

Karissa Chen: 30:18

totally. It's it's such an interesting process because, when I started the book, I was really empathizing with the, Like the children in the story, like knowing Oh my gosh I can't imagine being separated from my mom at 19 or 17 or whatever it is you're basically a kid and how scary that must be and how sad and lonely it must be because like, I rely on my mom for so many things even now I'm like 42 years old and I still will call my mom and be like, Mom, help me with this. I need your opinion.

Jason Blitman: 30:48

only separated, but separated and not allowed to

Karissa Chen: 30:51

Yeah, totally. Like I can't imagine like at least not like I do live really far from my mom because she lives in the States and I'm in Taiwan. I can message her. I can like FaceTime her. And I think the closest I ever got to a feeling of like terror that we might be separated was actually during COVID when you know, I didn't know None of us knew how that was going to turn out and I was like, Oh my God, I like, what if this gets really bad and I never see my mom again or if it's years and years until I see her again. And I remember feeling really scared because I was working on this book at the time and family separation was on my mind. But so for a long time, my focus was definitely just on Oh, what is it like to be separated from your, your nuclear family from such a young age and not have that support and have to go through the rest of your life, knowing that you've been separated from this family. And then as I became a mom, obviously I empathize with the mothers in this book from the beginning, and I don't think it's that hard to imagine how heartbreaking it must have been for them. But becoming a mom really put that in focus for me. All of a sudden, I had this child that like, they are not joking when they're like, your idea of love changes completely it's a love you've never experienced. It sounds so hyperbolic and it sounded so hyperbolic to me, even when I was pregnant, I was like, how different can I be? Like, I've loved people before, but it is totally different knowing now, like, when I look at him and I think, God if I were to be separated from him forever and not know, what happened to him and not know if he's alive and well. I don't know how you survive that. I don't know how you get through your days, and that really, it changed a lot of the way that I looked at. My characters in the book and what they were going through.

Jason Blitman: 32:39

Did you change anything in the book after that, do you think?

Karissa Chen: 32:44

I Did rewrite one chapter?

Jason Blitman: 32:46

Oh, interesting.

Karissa Chen: 32:48

there was one chapter that I had written and I completely changed it I mean this was at the suggestion of my editor So my editor was the one that was like maybe it was like a chapter that was right after she had given birth to her son and I had written this whole chapter and my editor was kind of like, maybe we cut this and we make him just a little bit older so that it becomes that chapter when he's like around four or five. And, I was writing that with at the time, I don't know, my son was like three months old, four months old. And I was writing that with, this. This is a little baby, you know, in another room and being really aware of all the ways that motherhood was difficult and was really different than what I had expected it to be but also all the ways that like I Wanted to be better as a

Jason Blitman: 33:30

Hmm.

Karissa Chen: 33:30

And hoped that I would continue to be better for him and also knowing that one day, you know He would leave me and have his own life And so all of that was bundled into this like one rewritten chapter

Jason Blitman: 33:41

Wow. Yeah. My sister has a two and a half year old who, she's very much coming into her own, it's hilarious. But is pregnant with her second,

Karissa Chen: 33:52

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:59

I, now I know for a fact that you are mom's favorite. Because whether no matter what, I will love. This second kid so much, but there will be nothing ever that replaces the relationship that I have with my first born. And she was, she's the youngest, my sister. So it's it just was a very, and she's. At one point, she might have talked about it in frustration, and now she talks about it in just fully understanding what it means to have a firstborn and just like the relationship with your secondborn and your thirdborn are all, and your last are all different. So it's very interesting her, seeing her process that as well, just from a different perspective. Do you have siblings?

Karissa Chen: 34:41

I do. I'm the oldest, and I have two younger siblings. I don't think I'm the one that's most loved, though, to be honest. But, I don't think that's true. But but yeah, I do have two siblings and It is really, I think my thing now is more like, Oh I totally understand like why my parents are to us the way that they are a little bit and then and then I feel like bad about because then I realized that now that I have a kid, I was like, Oh, this is like the ultimate unrequited love because of course, you love your parents. But I realized now having a kid that like, there is no way That you love your parents as much as they love you. They just love you so much more than you love them. And and it is the ultimate heartbreak. I just know this little kid is gonna grow up and break my heart. It's fine. I want him to have his own life. It's totally fine, but I also know. I'm, like, just waiting.

Jason Blitman: 35:31

It's also, it's like setting your kids up for failure though. Like we will never, it's like impossible for us to share that love.

Karissa Chen: 35:37

I don't know. I just can't. I'm sorry, Mom. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 35:39

Okay. Tzu Chi has a sister, Su Lan. They're very close. They go through a lot together. This is not a spoiler, and this is not explicitly said in the book anywhere, but I have to ask, is she a lesbian?

Karissa Chen: 35:52

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 35:53

Yes!

Karissa Chen: 35:57

Yes. It was challenging to try to write about it because, I imagined that at that time, like it wouldn't, it just wouldn't be something that they would talk about. It's not something that they probably even ever want to admit. Out loud, I think but I, I'm someone who doesn't develop my characters ahead of time. I let them reveal to me who they are as I'm writing and like, through the writing, like Sulan just, showed me that's like who she was and like, that's this, and if I could have written a whole other book about Sulan, I would have. She has a whole other like life and story that she is. She's one of my favorite characters just because she has all these aspirations for herself and all these things she wants to do and the the frustrations in her own life because she is trapped in a man's world. She is trapped in a world that is obviously very heteronormative and like traditional and she can never quite escape that totally, but she's doing her best. And and so I loved writing her. point when I was drafting this novel where she had a bunch of her own chapters and then I had to be like, okay, this doesn't fit in the book but, but like, you know, she, she does in my head. She has her whole, her own book that's going on.

Jason Blitman: 37:08

And, it's obvious how richly drawn the character is for me to see that along the way. And I felt for her that she couldn't. really talk about it. You, it's clear why she can't. And again, it's not necessarily overt and none of it is a spoiler. But yeah, it's it's heartbreaking.

Karissa Chen: 37:27

Yeah, I feel for her.

Jason Blitman: 37:29

There was a nugget early on where I think I like underlined and wrote a question mark and I was like, I see you girl. And then like 10 chapters later. She says I told you blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Oh my God.

Karissa Chen: 37:46

Wait, which part was it, what was the nugget that you underlined, do you remember?

Jason Blitman: 37:50

I think it was like, I don't want to get married. You don't understand. And I was like.

Karissa Chen: 37:58

You're like,

Jason Blitman: 37:58

Okay, girl, I'm cocking you. And then later she, it was like, truly, it's like the first quarter of the book. And then the fourth quarter of the book, which is I've already told you I'm never getting married. I can't get married. You don't understand. I was like, Oh, girl's a lesbian. So funny.

Karissa Chen: 38:17

But I also think I feel, I felt so bad for her because I feel her sister's her best friend. And yet this is something that she felt like she couldn't even tell her best friend basically because of the time and like the situation and, you sidelined to watching this like grand romance play out in front of her. And while of course her sister's dealing with. all kinds of horrible shit herself, but in a way there's some envy in that I think that, she feels like at least you can, you can Wear this heartbreak on your sleeve. But Sulan left behind people too, and she doesn't get to talk about it. And in my mind, I imagine that she's left behind someone she loves, and it's not something that she can ever talk about to anybody not even the person closest to her, because she doesn't believe they'll understand, and so I think that, you know, Sulan's has her own tragedies that she's dealing with. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 39:09

Yeah, you saying that reminds me, or made me think to share, that the book I think really underlined for me the difference between not looking back versus running away, And it's you're not necessarily running away from your past so much as just needing to move forward and not harp on. The things. But cause you can't outrun your past either, but harping on it is a bad thing.

Karissa Chen: 39:38

Yeah. I feel like this is I thought about this a lot because of the way, like my grandmother. would deal with stuff. she passed away a couple years ago, but up until she died, she was like very no nonsense y in a lot of ways. And a couple years before she passed away, I had this conversation with her where she started telling me about stuff that had happened during the war. And she said it's super matter of factly and she was like telling me about how her brother like put his wife and his daughter on a boat with all of their most valuable possessions. And he was in meet up with them later and the boat sank and they died and everything like, all of the good, nice possessions were gone and he had nothing, but she said it in this very she was just like, yeah, and then this happened and this happened. It was like, she was just like. telling you the synopsis of a play or something. And and I was like, grandma, that's horrible. She was like what are you gonna do about it, And like, that's the way it was at the time. And my father was overhearing this and he was like, wow, I never heard these stories either. And I was like, you've never heard these stories? And he was like, no. And I just realized like for her, she was just what is the point of revisiting this and like thinking about the tragedy that it was, because it just, it happened and like you can't change anything about it. And she was like very much like this in all the stories that she would tell us. She would just be like. Yeah, this is what happened. And I'd be like, these are so sad! And she'd be like, meh.

Jason Blitman: 41:03

I also think there was a time, too, where like, babies dying was normal. And we're like, this crazy thing happening was totally normal, life expectancy was 60, so it

Karissa Chen: 41:13

And like, when everybody around you is dealing with

Jason Blitman: 41:16

Right,

Karissa Chen: 41:16

you're just like, Hey, this is just like one more, right?

Jason Blitman: 41:19

It's a

Karissa Chen: 41:19

we knew had stuff happening to them. But to me, I was and I hear this a lot from friends who have, trauma in their past, especially historical trauma from immigrant families or refugee families. And they're just like, people don't want to talk about it. They are just what is the point? We're living a good life now. We're in a nice, you Place and we have a good life and you guys are all safe, and we're safe, and we're happy So what is the point of bringing up any of this stuff where it's you know I think the younger generation we are all like therapy. Therapy is why like

Jason Blitman: 41:52

Unpack our trauma. Unpack our trauma. I also need to know what is my inherited trauma.

Karissa Chen: 41:58

Yeah, exactly I need to understand it all I'm like take take it apart, but they're just like why what is the point of that

Jason Blitman: 42:05

the book is about so many things. Among the things is, I guess I will call the like sliding doors element like the movie sliding doors with Gwyneth Paltrow where you know, it's like the version where she gets on the train and the version where she doesn't get on the train. I think there's a lot of what if, I think for me, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if I stayed in New York City. What is that? Do you have that for you? Do you have your like,

Karissa Chen: 42:29

Oh, yeah. I have so many. I am like, I am such an indecisive person because I think that my life will be changed by every single decision I make. And, and, but it's it'll be even stuff like, what should I choose from the menu? And I agonize over my decision because I'm like if I regret this. But I think because I'm so conscious of. This like sense of what if I make the wrong decision? And because I know that like life changes, based upon a single decision and you just never know, like how things are going to turn out. And it terrifies me.

Jason Blitman: 43:03

Okay, so this is where I feel like we're the same because you say like how ridiculous that you're agonizing over what to order on a menu and I'm sitting here thinking okay if one of the things gives you food poisoning and that food poisoning stops you from getting on the bus and the bus gets into an accident. Like that decision at the restaurant changed your life,

Karissa Chen: 43:26

yes, I

Jason Blitman: 43:27

a terrible way to think about things.

Karissa Chen: 43:28

know I think about this all time like it's like also like when This is what I hate the most is like when I like I'm on my way to a flight or whatever you get to the Flight and they're like hey for 200 bucks Do you want to give up your seat or something? And sometimes I'm like I have no place to go I could use 200 bucks like yes, I'll do it. But then I always think to myself. What if I change my flight? And this is the flight that goes down. But then I also think, what if this is the universe's way of letting me get out of the situation where I almost died, and I don't take it, and and it I agonize over it, because that's where my brain goes.

Jason Blitman: 44:04

plane's going down and you're like, I should have

Karissa Chen: 44:06

exactly. Like, That was God's lifeboat. I'm always,

Jason Blitman: 44:12

How do you get out of bed every day?

Karissa Chen: 44:14

have no idea. It's so terrifying to me. But I do have to say that once I agonize over this like decisions and like it takes me forever to make a decision over anything. But I think I'm also like the kind of person who like, once I've made the decision, and I'm not dead, I am not so far so good. So yeah, so so far, it's been okay. And I think because I end up about it being like I don't know how the other decision could have gone. I don't know if it would have been better. So it, clearly this is the way we're going to live out our life. And it's okay, it's fine so far. And I make I choose to see the good in that. I think my characters Transcribed by https: otter. ai You know, are also trying to deal with that, right? Because in the beginning there's a point where Hywin says to Tsuchi when they're older don't you ever think about if we had been together I wish we could just have lived that life out together. And she's like You can't regret it because if if we, ended up together or whatever, if things had been different you wouldn't have your kids. I wouldn't have my son. And I think Hywin also sees that when he goes back home and he sees yes, he regrets leaving his family behind and missing all those years with them, but he also sees the lives that they led instead, whereas he has this really nice life in California and On the one hand, of course, it's heartbreaking, the choice that he made, and what it led to for him personally, the loss that he had personally, but at the same time it's so complicated because if he had stayed behind his life might not have been better, he wouldn't have, he wouldn't have met his wife, he wouldn't have these girls think I choose to think I must have made the right decision because my life is still pretty good,

Jason Blitman: 45:49

Yeah. No, I love that. I want to be mindful of your time. So there are two things. I want to ask you one. You're only you have to answer in a brief way not to tell you how to answer questions,

Karissa Chen: 46:00

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 46:01

I'm you saying what you just said made me remember to ask you. There is a point in the book where they go see a psychic a version of a psychic A fortune teller. Are you is that a do you are do you believe in that? Do you go to them? Do you have your tarot cards read?

Karissa Chen: 46:16

I have a Chinese fortune teller that I've been going to since my 20s. And yes, and she, I always have taken it with a grain of salt, but she did predict that I would meet the guy I would marry when I was 36. In my like late 20s and early 30s when I was dating someone else and was like, whatever.

Jason Blitman: 46:36

Uh, I assume you did meet him when you were 36.

Karissa Chen: 46:38

yeah, so I, I married a guy I met when I was 36. I don't know what to tell you.

Jason Blitman: 46:43

specific.

Karissa Chen: 46:44

I know.

Jason Blitman: 46:46

You are a former piano player and flautist, and that doesn't appear in the book at all, which surprised me.

Karissa Chen: 46:51

I'm a very bad piano player, I'm the flattest, so that is not anything to write about.

Jason Blitman: 46:57

Okay.

Karissa Chen: 46:58

I do love karaoke though, I do like singing,

Jason Blitman: 47:00

oh my god in the spring I'm gonna come to New York, we're gonna go see Last Five Years and go karaoke ing together.

Karissa Chen: 47:05

Let's do that!

Jason Blitman: 47:08

Oh my god, so fun! Karissa Chen, thank you so much for being here!

Karissa Chen: 47:12

Thanks for having me!

Jason Blitman: 47:13

Everyone go get Home Seeking. Again, if you haven't already it's This is coming out the end of February, I and where have you been? Why have you not read it? This is your sign to pick up the book,

Karissa Chen: 47:24

Yes, please pick it up.

Jason Blitman: 47:25

And have a wonderful rest of your day.

Karissa Chen: 47:27

Thank you. Thank you. This is so much fun. It's such a pleasure.

47:30

Lisicky, you are my guest gay reader today. Before I hear about your book, I have to know, what are you reading? What am I reading? I am reading a book called Alligators. I have to write this down, or I had to. The illustrated guide to their biology, behavior, and conservation. And I'm I don't want to say This is going to come across weird. I'm, that sort of shocks me. I was not expecting very specific nonfiction from you. I don't know why. Yeah I appreciate that. That I'm on sabbatical this semester and it occurred to me. I spend so much time reading student work and not just student work, but reading the kind of work that I would teach to my students. So it's in the last month or so. I've. I've been in an extremely different realm. I just wrote an essay that featured an alligator. My boyfriend lives in Louisiana. We talk about alligators all the time. This is all making sense now. Two million alligators live in the state of Louisiana. Two million? Two million. And Louisiana is probably a third less in square mileage than Florida, which only has one million. How's that for facts? What? How's This is shocking to me. It's the mascot of the state. You see the alligator represented on convenience stores and on schools, and it always has that two fee grin. But yeah, I wrote an essay about him and about his life in Louisiana and about our lives together there. And. It had to, the piece had to feature an alligator I've been reading this book, and none of the information from the book has ended in the piece, but But it's keeping your interest! It's no, it's not as illustrated as the title would lead you to think I bought it on I have a digital copy believe it or not. It was not published by a major press It was published by Johns Hopkins University Press in 2020 And it cost 50. The digital version or no? The physical version costs 50 because there are no other alligator books. I know it's crazy. There are no, why do I find that so hard to believe? I find it. I found it hard to believe too. Most of the books out there featuring animals are essentially geared toward children. And. Is there more to know? There are machines. 50 worth. They can run. They can run as fast as humans for about 100 feet before they peter out. I would guess that is in a picture book for children. That fact. I would think so. You don't think so? I do think so. I think most of the picture books for children probably emphasize its toofiness and its grin. And they're probably good books and well meaning and delightful. But it's really hard to find books about animals that aren't corralled and shaped by some point of view. That emphasizes the human. I Didn't think I'd be talking about alligators so much this morning, but I love it. What is your general genre of choice? My general genre of choice in recent years has been creative nonfiction. My education as a writer was in fiction and when I got my MFA, the last thing I expected to do was to write versions of myself. I wanted to escape myself, anything to escape myself and give myself a more, liberated and vital life. And somehow along the way I started writing creative nonfiction and people were interested in those books. Yeah. That's what I've continued to do. I don't think it's my story from here on out, but. It's not just been a couple. You, this is book, what, seven? Eight? It's book seven. Seven. That's a lot. That's, someone would call that prolific at this point. So it's. Crazy that you've not not crazy. Crazy is not the right word, but that you have aspired you at one point aspired to get away from yourself and write fiction and just never let you left that behind. Do you ever see yourself? Sure. in fiction. I think I'm better in a shorter form. Really natural to me to write fiction over the long haul of a novel doesn't seem to align with my neurology. Interesting. The thing about creative nonfiction is that it does give you imaginative latitude. I feel like, parts of the Joanie book attempt to, sink into her point of view. There's latitude in terms of different voices. There might be more latitude in creative nonfiction than there is in straightforward fiction, so. I haven't thought about that. You can make up, you can make up the form as it goes along, which feels Sure. A lot like a Joni song, they're not written out of prescribed forms. They're, they're acts of discovery is some in, so that said, tell me about Songs So Wild and Blue. Songs So Wild and Blue is A Life With the Music of Joni Mitchell is the subtitle. A Life With the Music of Joni Mitchell. Thank you, Jason. Is essentially a love letter to the songs of Joni Mitchell and Day One. I think about how they've shaped my creative life, as well as how they've shaped my life in general. It's, that work has been my, I don't know, creative, imaginative lodestar since I was in elementary school. I didn't become a real Joni Mitchell fan until I was in high school. When Hachira had come out. But yeah, it's always been in the air. I've always been touched by the strange chord she uses. Their lack of resolution. The dissonant notes. The space in them. I, it's like she's, I knew that she was. always walking alongside standard form. She's not so much of an experimentalist that she's far away or wide. All the way left. She's the strange kid who's able to, who's able to sit with the cool kids. And yeah, it's okay. Before I say what I'm going to say, cause that then you might end the zoom. I almost spit out your water. Sorry about that. Was there something that you, in writing the book, was there something you learned about yourself that Joni impacted that you didn't even realize? Yeah, that's a good question. I realized that the songs were records of process. I used the term acts of discovery earlier on, and yeah, there's a sense of reaching from point to point, she doesn't know the outcome in the best of her songs. And that has felt essential to me, not just in terms of being a writer, but just in terms of living open to inquiry, her most iconic song. I really don't know life at all, which I think gets subsumed in the big statement of sound around that, but It's an important declaration. Okay. That's part of it. That, you, I don't want this to become a therapy session for myself. However, I think I just learned so much about me in you describing these Joanie songs. Earlier you had talked about brushing up on your Joni Mitchell facts because you were worried that I might come in with some trivia, but that, was not on my mind at all. I spent my morning listening to a bunch of Joni songs just to get in the vibe. And This is so sacrilegious for this conversation, but I'm realizing that Joni Mitchell is maybe cilantro in that that the not prescribed form, some people can really lean into, and other people, it's like nails on the chalkboard. Right? And I've never really been able to articulate what about her songs make me uncomfortable. There is a discomfort. And yet, I love Both Sides Now, because it's probably her most traditional sounding song. Yeah, they're, most of the songs, with the exception of something like Both Sides Now or Big Yellow Taxi are Yes! Yes! Yeah, they make up their own form. They're not experiences of familiarity or comfort. I remember talking to one of my students about Taylor Swift's work, and this is not to deride her work at all by any means, but my student said sometimes you just want to hear music that you, that doesn't make you think too hard, that you can hear the background. And when a Joni Mitchell song comes on you do have to put, everything aside, and I've always been a sucker for that intimacy that what I think of as a thumbprint of sound. It doesn't sound like anyone else. But what I find even more fascinating, because I think, again, in this conversation I've, I came into this conversation not understanding why I'm not a huge Joni Mitchell fan, and I'm leaving fully understanding, and can in turn appreciate her more, you said, it's almost, she's not so far to the other side. And that actually, It's part of my quote unquote problem in that I think it's gonna be traditional. It sounds like there's going to be resolution, but then there's not. It's not so different that I immediately know, oh, this isn't going to be for me. I listened to the music and I'm like, oh yeah, this is going to be for me. And I'm like, wait, why am I feeling uncomfortable? And I think that's why. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love hearing that observation. Yeah, it's interesting. She could have evolved as a musician who was alternative and, might've sold just a few records, but she's always, I think, been interested in some degree of popularity and visibility, James Taylor is on, is a musician on some of the songs, a lot of mainstream people have been featured on her album. It's like an indie movie that like. Won an Oscar. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That's it. That's, but this is the wonderful thing about, this is not something, and all of my decades of life, I would've ever, I still am learning about her. This is not something I would've known about her. Even when I put finished the book, I feel like I'm still learning about the work and how she's. How she manages it and how she thinks about audience. You spent so much money on that alligator book. I need to, I want to read the article comparing Joanie to an alligator. Like what is Are you going to ask that? Alligators are full of contradictions. They spend a lot of time in water, but they can also live on land. Lots of sitting still, but they can run very fast. There you go. I shouldn't this doesn't sound good. They've been around a long time. They're dinosaurs. I don't think she would appreciate that. Cause she, I think she really is like someone who is like really young in spirit. Yeah, alligators have thrived because they've been attuned to, tuned to their own living. They, yeah. And stay true to themselves. They do. Yeah. It's true. This article writes itself, Paul. Yeah. I'm going to present this to my agent. You're welcome. I don't even need 10%. I'll give it to you. Oh, you're very kind. This is being recorded, so that's on the record. I know, it's on the record. Our vocal contract. So funny. Yeah, that's so fascinating. And I think there's something so youthful and joyous. About her as well, which again, feel, I'm like why is that not something that sits well with me? I'm gonna, I'm gonna get so many messages after this episode. People are gonna be like, why do you hate Joni Mitchell? And I don't, it don't matter. I don't feel that way. There is just, I just never understood why some of the songs made me feel uncomfortable. And now I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a, yeah, that uncomfort, that discomfort is threaded in with intimacy. Absolutely. Intimacy doesn't feel good. As much as humans might crave it yeah. There's a vulnerability that comes with that. My therapist would be like, lean into the discomfort. Yeah. Easier said than done. As I roll my eyes. Who listens to some comforting song out in the car. Exactly. Have you met her? I haven't, but we had 10 seconds of sustained eye contact. That's in the book. And I could tell she really liked me. I was in the, and I liked her too. We were, I was in the front row of a concert at Boston's Fleet Pavilion, it's no longer called that, back in 2020, and seated next to someone who was so enthusiastic that she was heckling Joanie. So when Joanie left, I guess you would say it was stage right, someone said Joanie, I'm a guest person, and Joanie looked at me. Was such calm, pity, and and we both smile at each other. Yeah. It was a really sweet moment. I still, maybe one day I will meet her. I, maybe this will, this book will end up in her hands. My fantasy that she'll invite me and my boyfriend to have. Lunch sometimes this is us manifesting. We love it. What would, is there something, if you could say one thing to her, what do you think it would be? Oh, thank you. Just thank you for the bravery and encouraging of putting yourself out there. And I think putting oneself out there isn't simply about revelation or intimacy, but it's. She's created a system of sound vocal phrasing, guitar tunings that have been so liberating to me. I think she's she's someone who's incredibly self attuned, aware of her body and has a really strong rudder and, it sounds melodramatic to say that, but I think the constant example of that has saved my life. That's very beautiful. I don't think exactly. You're like, no, that's beautiful. But it's true, really. When we have so many, there's so much thrown at us to be anything but ourselves, right? And it's just, the work has given me psychic strength. And I love that. And I think part of what's so interesting to me is, I'm like I just, my discomfort is very real. So it's so fascinating to me that you're, you have the complete opposite experience. That's why I'm like, Oh, this is cilantro. I really like cilantro and my husband can't stand it. Music in general, it's so magical what it is capable of doing, and everyone, just like, their palate for food, their palate for music is different and unique and what moves one person doesn't necessarily move the other person or brings this person joy or that person joy. And our palates change too, right? Yeah. Oh, of course. Last week, I was listening to Chalkmark and the Rainstorm, her. One of her eighties albums, album that I'd dismissed as, a bid for visibility and Grammy bait and all that. And I was listening through headphones. I deemphasize the vocals, but something in my listening was different and that, Oh my God, I can hear how. Meticulous and stacked all these instruments are this is an experience of stacking and it wasn't just pleasurable on the level of sound. I just thought, Oh, my God, this is about living through multiple layers and to, sit with that. I had a feeling after talking to you, I would be very interested in going back and revisiting and I'll take some notes and I'll send them to you to see how things shift and change. I, this is my instinct. Cause I'm also going to want to list from you if what are the other, what are more songs that are like yellow taxi on both sides now, right? Like where should I, my, where should I go? We don't have, you don't have to answer that right now. We can think about it. Okay. You are my guest gay reader. Is there anything that you are reading? Do you have any reading emotionally? Do you have any grievances you need to get off of your chest? I don't want my guests to like, sit in anything that they really need to share. So if there's something that you need to get off your chest now is your moment. It's a safe space. Yeah. It's so hard to share grievances at a moment when I feel like we're just all, or many of us are holding ourselves together, so I'm not even sure I know how to open that window or door. Of course! This is part of why I've been asking people this because there, there can be minutia that people don't even think about that they like genuinely want to say is so annoying to them but they feel like the world is crumbling around them that they can't even stress about the minutia. So that, I think that's where this sort of quote unquote segment comes from. It's like that stupid board that keeps falling off my dresser. It's like, why can't that just stay standing? The construction on my street. Oh, yes. Over the Thanksgiving holiday, there was a manhole fire on my street. And Something happened underground, and it sparked an electrical wire, and the electrical wire went all the way up to the fourth floor of the building across the street and set it on fire. And since then, since late November, the Con Edison or Whatever force has been trying to remedy this, but it's clear that whatever is down there making power creating energy in our apartments is barely held together. And that's lame any the city or any particular. No, it's just stating a fact. It's stating a fact, and I think it's going to be ongoing, and I think what luck. it is not to have for my apartment not to burn. I hate saying it because it could just as well have happened here. See, that's a good grievance, the construction and all of that. That's see? The world is crumbling and yet this little thing you could get off your chest. Yeah. I'm here for you, Paul. I'm here for you. I feel better. You're good. Good. Paula Sicky, thank you so much for being here. Oh, thanks so much. It's been so much fun. Song So Wild and Blue, a life with the music of Joni Mitchell, is out now. Everyone go get your copy, order it from your local bookstore, go pick it up at your local bookstore. Congratulations. Thanks so much. It's been a delight. Karissa and Paul, thank you so much for being here today. As I mentioned, I'll see you later this week with a special bonus episode. If you're not following on social media, make sure to do that. Ake is reading. And, you know, all the things. Stay dry. Stay healthy. Stay sane. Thank you all. Have a wonderful rest of your day. See you next week. Bye!