Gaze reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. Gaze reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gaze reading. Hello, and welcome to Gays Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and today I have a special bonus episode for you. Just a few weeks ago, I was in conversation with author Sarah Sligar live at the Palm Springs Readers Festival, and her book, Vantage Point, talks so much about deepfakes. Not only was I already looking forward to sharing this interview, on the podcast, but with everything going on in the news these days, there have been multiple Worldwide recognized deepfakes, that I figured now is crazily, more important than ever for this conversation to be shared. And so enjoy this live conversation with Sarah Slagar. No differences at all. No different. Yeah. I will say my favorite thing now about doing these author conversations with the festival So what I get to sit. These are very comfortable chairs. So I'm just like very cozy over here. Talk amongst yourselves. Sarah and I are just going to sit here and be comfortable. This is a very nice chair. I really enjoy these. okay. I feel like everyone out there has gotten enough time. Let's begin. Okay. We've begun. Hi everyone. I'm so happy to have you back from lunch. The fantastic Sarah Sligar, like spy car, is here with me. If you were here last year, Sarah was on the panel of people whose books hadn't come out yet. And now her book is out! So it's so exciting because again, this time last year, Sarah's book. Was, was just on the computer. Yes. It was, it was but a, but a, you know, 250 kilobyte file living in the cloud. And now you're here. It was just published the beginning of January. Yeah. January 14th. Amazing. And here we are. It's so fresh. It hasn't hit its sell by date yet. All of the copies are. Smells very new. But you can only smell it if you buy it. I know, I know. And again, everyone's bio is on the website, but more importantly, in the back of the book. So you can read about all the authors in their books when you buy them. Um, and Sarah's other book is also out on the table, so you can buy that too. Alright, for the people who have not read it yet, in the months almost that it's been out. What is your elevator pitch for vantage point? Um, great question. Um, so the little like tagline on the back of the book is Megan Abbott meets succession, and I think that's a pretty good kind of Summary of the vibe for someone who hasn't read Megan Abbott or watch Succession. What do that? What is that? Well, I was about to describe the rest of the book. So then I'll yeah, that was just that was just my tagline for Yeah, the elevator A longer elevator, um, so it is vantage point is about a old money family kind of like the kennedys They have like a Kennedy Curse like thing hanging over their heads, um, and the two sort of Maine kids in the, in the Whelan family, as they're called in the book, um, live on this remote island in Maine. And when the book opens, the brother has started a Senate run, and then his sister, who has been through a lot of different troubles in her life, um, suddenly has a video of her go viral on the internet. She doesn't remember if it is real or if it might be a deep fake or an AI generated video. Um, and so it sort of unspools from there, um, and more videos start coming out. And so it's a lot about technology and family. And, um, that the family sort of falls apart, is torn apart by, um, some of the secrets that emerge after this video comes out. It's like a thriller. It's a crime, thriller, horror. Yes, yes. It is the Paige Turner. Um, uh, anyone familiar with deepfakes? Anyone not familiar with deepfakes? We were like, wait, remind me, tell me what a deepfake is, anyone know? We have someone like that? Okay. You, in your acknowledgements, because I read all the way through to the back cover of the book, you thanked the person who told you the word deepfake for the first time in 2016. What was that nugget for you? Yeah, so, uh, so a deep fake, um, the word comes from deep learning, um, meaning like machine learning. Um, so a deep fake is a video or image or audio bit that is. AI generated to imitate somebody, um, and deepfakes are incredibly convincing now. Um, someone could send, you know, your child a deepfake of you, um, saying something, and the video could look just like you, and they could be like, you know, wire me all your savings or something like that, and those are real scams that happen. They're very convincing, and they get more convincing every single day. Um, I, yeah, I first heard about them, I guess the word deepfake was allegedly coined in like 2017 and I, so I guess I sort of heard the word in the aftermath of like the 2016 election when there was a lot of discussion about fake news and misinformation and doctored videos, um, and so that sort of whole concept kind of rolled together for me, um, and I, I was like, well, first of all, I was like, that's a cool word. Well, my friend, you know, told me the word. Um, but I actually, it was because I had already kind of started developing this novel, um, in which there is, there were these kind of like faked videos, imitated videos. Um, and so she was sort of like, Oh yeah, like a deep fake. And I was like, yeah, like a deep fake. Exactly. I knew the word as well. Thank you for clarifying. Um, yeah, so that was my history with deep fakes and I've gone so far down. The rabbit hole of deepfakes. I, I was thinking about like, once upon a time when you could put in your photo, and it would take your face and your whole family and put them on like a dancing elf, where you elf yourself. I was like, that to me is like the OG deepfake. Like, oh wait, I'm not an elf, but I look like one in this video. And it's making me do things. And like, talk about the evolution of that. Um, I just also have to say, I made a joke about we're making a bottle collection over here and I cannot remember which one is mine. Um, how has writing the book changed the way you consume the news, social media, seeing a photo in a magazine, sort of just consumption of content? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. Um, I mean, certainly researching this book, I have realized. how manipulated many of the images and videos that we see online are or have the potential to be. Um, even just now with the LA fires, there was like this video that was circulating all over the internet of like the Hollywood. Sign burning. And everyone was like, the Hollywood sign is burning. Oh, my God. And the Hollywood sign was never in danger of burning. It was not anywhere close to the fires. That photo was a deep fake. Um, and so I think, um, it certainly made me more aware that those exist. I'm more skeptical when I encounter video, um, evidence now, you know, the degree to which it's like actual evidence, uh, is a little bit Yeah. Questionable sometimes, you know, so you have to do things like looking into, like, where did it come from? Like, what's the, what's the source? Who's sharing it? Like, how is it being interpreted in the source that it's sharing it? Um, so I think it's changed the way I consume media in that sense. Um, but I think, you know, most of all, it's made me just, yeah, very scared, I guess, about how we all consume media. Because even I, who, I do think at this point, I'm like, You know, I very much approach things with the awareness of deep fakes. Um, I still, you know, I'm scrolling on Instagram or online and of course I don't have time to like interrogate every single image or video. Um, and so I want to say it's made me, you know, even more media literate or more aware, but I also take things for granted as well because it's sort of our nature. It's sort of how we're interacting with technology. Yeah. it's like reading 1984 now, reading vantage point now was like very prescient. And on one hand, I'm like, Oh God, I can't keep reading this. On the other hand, you're like, Oh my God, this is such a good book. I have to keep reading it. And also there's some element of. I need to be prepared. I need to keep reading this. So it's almost like a field guide. Yeah. And it's educational. It is very educational. And a family story. you talk about like a family curse. I have to say my birthday is April 6th. And there's a lot of April 6th bad things that happen in the book. And this is my public outcry that you have ruined my birthday. I didn't. Oh, oh, because there's like the, there's like a, there are bad things historically that have happened to this family on April 6th. Actually, my uncle, um, just read the book and texted me out of nowhere. And this is the only way I know he was reading the book is he texted me. He was like, April 17th is Jimmy's birthday. And I was like, like my cousin, Jimmy. I was like, okay. I was like, it's, it's only January. I got some, I got some time, you know, before I have to wish him happy birthday. And then He meant, like, because April 17th, something happens on April 17th in the book, and, um, yeah. I think that also I should maybe clarify for context that one aspect of the family curse is that the Whelan family, is sort of condemned to die in these very, Gothic, weird, high profile ways during the month of April. And so the whole book takes place during the month of April. It starts March 31st, and it ends, April 30th, which you, you know, know at the beginning of the book. and then there's also kind of like Wikipedia entries that are flashing back and describing some of the, historic deaths that have happened in April. So it's a very April heavy book, you know, it's April forward. So some of those Wikipedia articles are for April's sake, so I'm just again publicly shaming and publicly expressing my frustration. That's very airy, Sophia. I'm nothing if not on brand. Um, uh, what are your feelings about oak. Tell me more about a in curses? Can something Um, I guess, you know, I'm kind of like, I'm like a never say no type of person. I feel like if I were up here and I were like, I don't believe in curses at all, then, you know, I would be hit by a curse the next day. So I don't want to say I don't believe in curses at all. Um, I do think that the reason I was interested in giving the Wieland family a curse like the Kennedy curse, um, is. Because I was very interested in both that sense of like foreboding and a like kind of like an axe waiting to fall over your head, I feel like that automatically for a crime writer, you know, creates this like suspense and tension and it creates, um, in the context of this book, a kind of time, um, A compressed timeline, which always is like a, in writing, we say like at a clock sometimes, like at a ticking clock, to increase the suspense because people then know they're reading toward a specific moment. Um, so that was one reason, but also one thing that's always interested me about the Kennedy curse. Or the Rockefeller curse or any of these like famous, you know, cursed families is the idea of like what it would be like to grow up knowing that everybody in the world thinks that you are going to die soon. Everybody in the world is talking about, you know, your parents deaths. Like, wasn't that like an insane thing that happened? You know, that like X, Y, Z happened to them. and it becomes this kind of like source of gossip. And so, in writing the book, I was very interested in what specific types of trauma that would create for the characters and how they would learn to or not learn to process grief in this really, public environment. And it's interesting you say that too, because the question was, do you believe in curses? And then you went on to talk about all of the families that are cursed. So like, there is that element of like, well, if I'm Acknowledging that all of these people are dealing with it, then I guess there is an element of believing in it. And it's also funny, for those of you who were here earlier, for my conversation with Ruben, how we were talking about fate. And so there's something, too, about Is there, is it a self fulfilling prophecy? Right? If you're saying, if you have this person who's thinking like, Oh my God, everyone around me believes this thing, you sort of have to then believe it yourself and just decide that you're gonna die a crazy death soon. Well, yeah, well, yeah, I think that's, I think there is a self fulfilling prophecy about it, very much so, and that, you know, kind of plays out in the book, in certain ways. Um, and I also think that some of it is sort of just like, public interpretation of the facts or like projection from the public onto the facts. Like one reason why all these famous families are said to be cursed is because they're famous. So people know when one of their members dies, right? And so that grief that every family experiences at some point or another, that trauma and strangeness that, that everyone experiences is just. magnified. And so it's, it's like a self fulfilling prophecy coming a little bit from inside the family, maybe, but also just from the pressures from the outside world and people wanting to create a narrative about, um, about, you know, this family. Sure. Does anyone feel like their family is cursed? That's a really good question. Zero hands went up. Yeah. Oh, great. Oh, clear the curse. How'd you do that? Oh, you paid a woman to do it. Sarah paid a person to clear her curses. Great. Listen, wait, I not, not me, Sarah. No, that's Sarah. A different Sarah bookstore. Sarah. Yeah. the, the, the DeepFakes are used throughout the book in, very specific ways. I'm curious if there was a Sarah Sligar Deepfake, how would you want to use it? Oh, how would, how, what would I want to do with a deepfake? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I, what would you want to present as. Well, I think that if I, you know, people don't really create deepfakes of themselves because they could just do the thing. Right. That's right. Well, unless you didn't want to do the thing. Yeah. I mean, if there was something I really didn't want to do, but then why would I want people to see me doing it? You know? So, so usually deepfakes are really cool, like jumping off a cliff and skydiving. Like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. Look at my deep fake. I did it. Yeah. I, you know, that's amazing. That's very manipulative of you Um, I, I, or did I do it? I mean, I, I, now, I, now, I don't know, I don't know. We would have to dive into the, you know, genesis of where did the deep fake come from? Yeah. What algorithms did you have access to? Yeah, okay. What I had not thought, wanna, thought about that, use a deep, big on somebody else for, you know, these are all, I mean, I'm really not trying to evade the question, but I just, I actually, it's. really strongly, have, and I wrote an op ed about this that I'm still, you know, trying to get somebody to publish, but I actually now at this point kind of believe that all deep fake technology is inherently unethical because it erodes our sort of belief, um, in like the integrity of media. And so even deep fakes that are like amusing and funny, like, you know, one of like Tom Cruise, like. Um, flipping a coin, or there's one that's like, uh, goes around as well that's like Nick Cage's face on like Jennifer Lawrence's body or something like that. They're very, they are funny, but they, they feed into a system that, and I'm sorry, I know this is like, you asked a fun question and this is such a dark answer. I have a more fun question next. Okay, I'll, yeah, I just don't, I just, you know, I don't usually have fun. These things are scary, and I want to say, like, on one hand, don't buy the book because you're gonna lose sleep, but buy the book because it's. So good. And you're not gonna be able to put it down. And the other thing, the last thing I want to say being like, well, maybe not the last thing, but being, uh, and then we're done. But you know, from my dark deep fake self, is that deep fakes, 98 percent of all deep fakes online are pornographic. 99 percent of those are of women. and so, you know, between 90 and 99 percent of all deepfakes anywhere on the internet are not political deepfakes. They're not funny deepfakes. They're non consensual pornography made of women. And so that's where I, like, start to have, like, um, another ethical problem with it. Because just the technology at this point is used for one like specific reason and it's usually like to harm women. Sorry, that's the darkest I'll get, I hope. Okay, you, we've talked a little bit about curses, but in terms of, like, your own superstition, Hmm. What? What does that mean to you? What does that feel like for you? Superstition. yeah, I have a lot of superstitions. and I used to have, I mean, and it's like, you know, very under control now, but OCD when I was younger. And so I had a lot of like, really like rituals and superstitions that I was really very focused on. Right. And so I think to me, a superstition feels like something that you're feeling a pressure to do something almost coming from like, it's almost from like outside you and inside you, like, you know, I think that most people know when they have superstitions that like the superstition is not rational, right? Or not like You know, if somebody is like, like, I won't walk under a ladder, for example. I'm not, it's not because I really think anything bad is gonna happen to me if I walk under the ladder. But I'm like, well, but why risk it, right? Um, and so There's also like an element of tradition. Yeah, an element of tradition. But I think there is, I guess that is a kind of supernatural thing now that I'm thinking about it. That feeling that there's just some like force that doesn't want you to walk under the ladder. Yeah. I'm also like not talking too much about the book because you just have to read it. Oh, great idea. Um, also, I feel like I probably sound like a really like not so person up here being like, these are all my deep fake conspiracy theories and my superstitions about walking under ladders. But I think that Jason just intentionally is asking me questions to make me sound. Like, I'm wearing a tinfoil hat. It's actually so funny, because you're making me reflect on where did these questions come from. I mean, the book is 400 pages, so like, I clearly was stuck on the idea of 400 pages and nothing, nothing to ask. No, not true at all. No, it's just such a fascinating topic because I've never read fiction like this that's so contemporary, uh, that feels so relevant. In a moment where we're all looking at social media being like, Is that real? Is the Hollywood side burning? Right? Like, that just happened. So this is just so relevant today, unfortunately. You know, we'll get, let's move on to more fun things. for lack of giving things away, let's say there's a, a first date sort of questions in the book. Okay. What song do you sing in the shower? What song do I sing in the shower at home? This is a question in the book. It's a question I ask in the book? It is a question you ask. If you were here for Ruben, I said I repeat things from the book and people don't remember them. I have multiple other questions that you ask in the book. Okay, okay, okay. What song do I sing in the shower? Sabrina Carpenter. Love Sabrina Carpenter. Is there a song of choice? All of them. I just go kind of through. Sometimes I'll like put my iPhone in the shower on like the little ledge next to me and I'll just go through, you know. several songs while showering and, you know, kind of just goes, yeah, just put on a concert. My dog loves it. Can't get enough. When is the last time you cried? Also in the book. That's, no, it's a good, that, uh, when was the last time I cried? Um, I actually honestly can't remember, but it definitely was sometime in January, because a lot has happened in January. And it was probably a reaction to some news event of some level. Or maybe Pub Day? No. Joy? Tears of Joy? You know, well, the only thing that was weird about Pub Day, which was great, I, uh, Tears of Joy, I don't feel like I cry tears of joy a lot, I guess. Yeah, I just kind of save them for all of my doom scrolling or something. But, um, Pub Day, so my first book came out in April 2020. Um, famously not a great time to launch a debut novel by an author nobody's heard of. Um, and so all of my, you know, events and everything were cancelled for that. Um, and then this book and my came out January 14th and that was my launch party was scheduled for that day. And then we had the LA fires. Um, so that we got postponed that as well, but we ended up having it, which is exciting. But so this is basically like, you know, I don't know, like the second like event I've ever had for a book of mine that where it's like just me talking about a book. Which is one reason why this might be a little bit meandering. Like, crack open your soul for me, please. Yeah, that's what I love about you, Jason. Yeah. Slash just tell me all of your conspiracy theories. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Okay. The last question that you ask in the book, oh, well, not the last, but among the last one that I wrote down to ask you is, what is your greatest? Oh, um, my greatest, I have a really deep fear. I think this comes from like watching Titanic too much at like a very impressionable age, but I'm like really afraid of like deep dark water, like, like bottoms of the ocean or like scuba diving and getting like trapped scuba diving. It's like terrifying for me. And I also really don't like dolls. I just, I, you know, and I don't really know the origin of this, but it's like dolls and puppets, especially if it's supposed to be like kind of human esque. And so you sort of like the Uncanny Valley where they look like a little bit human, but not quite, you know, but not quite human. Um, that just really gives me the heebie jeebies. And, um, actually it's probably. One reason why I ended up writing or so interested in deep fakes is because this idea of the uncanny valley Where you can kind of tell that something's just not quite right, but you can't put your finger on it That really freaks me out. And so I think that that is like one thing that drew me into writing about this Yeah, they're in that element of Something not being quite right, I think, is obviously very present throughout the entire book. But there's also something so interesting about, we all have our own reality. Because we're all individuals. We all see the color red differently. Right? And that's just sort of like, because we're people. And so because we all have our own sense of reality, we could unspool that idea for three hours. Yeah, or 400 pages, which is basically what I did. No, but that really is like the question that kind of governs the book, I would say. And, you know, one reason why it's called Vantage Point is it's very much about people's perceptions and how we can have totally different perceptions of like an event or a thing. Yeah. Something that's happened, um, an object, a person, totally different perspectives, just based on our approach to them. There's some based on our vantage point. Um, and that to me is like really freaky. I mean, it's freaky that it's like, you know, um, my sister who I know very, very well. I see a side of her that like nobody else will ever see that exact side of her, right? Um, and she sees a side of me that other people don't see. And that's really strange. It's, it's very weird. And I, you know, spent a long time being very obsessed with this idea, which is why I wrote a book about it. And you saying that, I was literally just having a conversation with my sister who's here over lunch, how there are three of us and I'm the oldest and she's the middle and we have a younger sister and how. My relationship is different with each of them because of the age differences and she happens to have such a different relationship with us Because she's closer in age to each of us Right and doesn't have the five year gap that I have but like we're all we all have the same siblings You know, so it's a even even that it's a different vantage point. It's a different reality Right, and so even our day to day life. We started thinking like wait a minute. What is the reality. And what's the reality I'm living in versus that other person. Right? Like you might be sitting over here and this speaker is not as good as that speaker. And so the reality is that your real, your reality is that it's not, the sound isn't so great. And over here it's that it's way too loud. Right? And that, This is what kept me up at night. I know you have to read like I really, I really, the book will also maybe make me seem like a tinfoil hat person, but I think that, but I, I do think it's a really interesting set of questions. And what I did try to do in the book is because I feel like those questions get really heady and you can get like, so absorbed in them. I tried using deepfakes, using, you know, different points of view from different characters, tried to like make that quandary like as real as possible so that it becomes something you can Consider, you know, like a kind of philosophical question you can consider, but like through characters and situations that are hopefully interesting and engaging. Yes. There's a great relationship between these two women who have been friends their whole life. Jess and Clara, do you. Have one. Do I have one? A Jess or a Clara? Oh, a Jess or a Clara. Um, no, not, I mean, I don't have a Jess or a Clara because they have a really very specific relationship. Um, and it has like a very specific type of like sexual charge as well as that like kind of develops through the book. Um, and I don't have that with either of my like, closest friends, um, from when I was little, but I do. Yeah, my, um, one of my best friends, Cordelia, we've known each other since we were like one year old. And so she's, you know, she's really like a sister, like it is becomes like quite a sisterly relationship. And it is interesting because you like know a person so well, you grow up together and love them so much. But it is, I guess, in terms of thinking about vantage points and perspectives on somebody. It's interesting because it's almost like at a certain point, not that you stop seeing them, but that like, you've just seen them in so many different situations that to me, you know, when I like. Spend time with Cordelia or talk to Cordelia. It's like we're having that conversation, but we're also having all the conversations We've ever had and all of the like Memories that we've ever had and that's such like a meaningful and powerful thing um, and that was one thing I wanted to kind of like reveal through Jess and Claire's relationship and friendship is that Like when you're saying something To someone you've known for so long, you're never just saying like that one thing, you know, um, but I would definitely say, you know, Cordelia's and my relationship is much, you know, I would say healthier and like more fun than, you know, Jessica, I mean, it's a thriller, but it gets quite dark. So like, yeah, there's, I wouldn't say it's like, you know, codependent in the same way. Sure. That's fair. They also just like have a deep longstanding history. Um, that's what's so fun is that there are these like crazy philosophical questions that like sparked lots of really interesting conversation and humans that you really care about. And that's what makes the book so special. Um, there's a lot of family drama. There's a lot of conversation about your birthright, about circumstance, and just like family at its core. Did writing the book make you think about. Ask those questions for your own family. I mean, I am not from a billionaire family. I mean, sort of like emotionally. Yeah, no, I just wanted to clarify that. Um, because, you know, I, just in case anyone thought I might, I don't, I guess no one probably thought that. I feel like I definitely did think a lot about my family while writing this. But it's kind of, it's hard, it's hard for me to answer that question just because I think at, like through the process of writing the book, you know, the characters and like their situation becomes so specific and real to me that it is hard for me, like, I guess I could, I can see some connections, but also like, it's, you know, it's It's never like, Oh, this particular thing is like directly based on my family. I know that's not your question, but like even reflecting on your own family history, right? There's, there are the Wikipedia pages. There's a lot of talk about like just legacy. So did it make you think about what your legacy is, where your people come from? Yes. Totally. Yeah. And I also want to say, I, it was a really good question. I was just trying to explain why I was having difficulty answering it and processing it. Billionaires aside. Yeah. Billionaires aside. Yeah, I mean, I think I definitely think a lot about my legacy and indeed, if you would like to read my first book, Take Me Apart, which is very, which is about a famous photographer who like dies mysteriously and leaves behind this like archive of all of her journal entries, et cetera, and then. 20 years later, another woman is trying to, like, piece together the mystery of how she died. And a lot of that book was me thinking a lot about, like, from a time I was, like, a little kid, I was, like, I better save all these notebooks in case I become a famous writer someday. And somebody wants To read my story about what if I were the sixth member of the Spice Girls and we all went on a shopping spree, you know Where would we go to shop first? Limited to It's also funny because like I actually found one of these stories when I was back at my parents house for the holidays and what was really funny is that because I only understood money in terms of like My like very small allowance at the time. I was like, how many clothes would we buy if we had 50? Like it would be so many and it was like I didn't really know that, you know, increments of money were very like Known to me at the age of eight or whatever. So, right. And now you're getting a scarf with your 50. Oh, right Oh now I'm buying I was like, I thought you were gonna give me a scarf. I got really excited. And now you're getting a scarf! Yay! Everybody look under your chair. There's a scarf. And there's a scarf. Just kidding. It's a deepfake. Yeah. Does anyone have questions for Sarah? Whoa. Straight back. The question is, as I said earlier, the book has all these like Wikipedia entries of like how the members of the family have like died in the past. And the question is, did I come up with all of those myself? Because it's a lot of gory, very weird deaths. I did, except for one, and I will say someone asked me about this in the interview the other day, and then I went on to explain it at great length, and then he was like, obviously felt quite nauseated afterwards, and was like, I wish I hadn't asked the question, so I'm not going to say what happens in the death. You could read the book if you want, um, because I got a little too excited about the original newspaper article, and I don't want to scar anybody for life. Um, but the what, the steel mill. Uh, death, that's like the first death that is based on, um, a real thing that happened. Oh. There was a question over here. The question is like, which writer influenced me? Or is it like my life experiences and where I've lived that gave me the point of view? I would say definitely a combination. There are a lot of writers that inspire me. And I always get so like nervous when I have to come up with a list. Cause I'm like, I'm forgetting so many. Um, but definitely, yeah, Megan Abbott, Donna Tartt, I love. I really love Cosmo Ishiguro, who's not a thriller writer. But like, I just think that, The way he wrote Never Let Me Go, and Remains of the Day, and like so many other great books. And I just think like the way that he like uncovers psychology and sort of like alludes to things under the surface is so masterfully done. Um, so, uh, yeah, those are probably like three that are Very influential, but I think it's also definitely life experiences places that I've lived and the island in Maine where Vantage Point is set Is based on an island that I know very well I grew up going to and my parents now live there part time. And so it was really exciting to be able to write a book set there. I sort of like fictionalized the place names, you know, a bit, um, to avoid any legal troubles. But, um, but it's, you know, it's pretty directly based on that. And so that was a huge inspiration for me writing the book. And I think where a lot of like the atmospheric tension comes from. I'm so glad that was asked, because one of my questions that I didn't get to was, do you have a vantage point? And you do. That's amazing. Christy Clancy! Yeah, so Christy's question is about the book that this book is based on. Kind of inspired by loosely based on. So this book, I was only gave you half the story earlier when you asked about the seed of the book because the half the seed was as you asked about deep fakes and video manipulation and the other half was this like crazy book from 1798 that I read, um, in grad school in a seminar on like books from the 17 nineties, which is the exciting kind of exciting class you can take. Um, as An English PhD student, but it actually was a really great class. It was really interesting. Um, and I was obsessed with this book. It's called Wieland by Charles Brockton Brown, and it is about A family that is torn apart when they, um, come across somebody who is capable of, like, imitating each other's voices and the voice of God to them, um, and he in turn was inspired by this, like, newspaper story that he had read about a man who had, like, killed his entire family because he said he was, like, commanded to by the voice of God, right? So there's sort of a lay, like, some layers that are happening there. In that book, it's totally supernatural. I was, but I like, I like loved it. It was, it's great. It's the first American horror novel. Most people outside of English academia have not heard about it. Um, but it is like really wild and crazy, um, and fun, you know? Um, and I became interested in like, What would it be like to take some aspects of that concept, but put it into the present day when that sort of imitation no longer has to be supernatural? I mean, if you think about it, in 1798, they didn't have telephones. They didn't have recording devices. The idea of just a disembodied voice at all was terrifying. And it was all, that whole book is sort of a parable for like fears. about, um, democracy in like the early American Republic. So we've like built this whole government on the idea that, um, people are telling the truth when they vote and they're going to say what they think and they're going to vote for who they say they're going to vote for and everybody gets a voice. Okay, but what happens if like someone can fake someone else's voice? What happens if someone can like imitate somebody else, right? Um, where, where could that possibly lead? And so that book sort of, Wieland examines that in the 1790s. And I was interested in like, examining that same concept today, when there's some like, very eerie, weird parallels. So, it is, it, it ended up, originally, I was like, I thought I'd be really smart, I was like, you know what I should do for my second book, because everyone says second books are really hard, but, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna cheat, and I'm just gonna like, base it on another book, and that's gonna be way easier. And it was like, not, it was actually way harder, because I, started out writing like a really, like a, much closer adaptation, and then like, a year or two into writing it. I stumbled across this, article that was, just, like, Wieland, which famously has no coherent plot, or, any, narrative logic. And I was, like, oh, yeah, that would have been good to know. That explains why my book is not working, and why my editor said it, like, cannot be published. That's it. Um, so I had to redo it a lot, so I had, a lot of different drafts, and the end version is really far away in a lot of ways. from the original. The plot is very different. The characters are different. Um, although there's the Whelan family, it is the Whelan family. and the main characters, Teddy and Clara still have the same names. There's some good Easter eggs throughout. and like the core of the idea, is still there about like this idea of what happens both politically and personally when we can't really trust, our loved ones voices or appearances. So there's that, but yeah, it ended up being quite different, than the original. So the question is like, what is it like living in this world that, um, is like a very difficult world to live in and that features a lot of compulsions? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very heightened. It's very drawn up. I mean, I would say. So actually one thing that I don't, even though I, I understand what people mean when they say it, but like when people talk about oh, you get to know your characters or you know, falling into a world or something. For me, it's more, I'm like, oh no, I am. crafting them, right? And, but I, I totally know what they mean because there's a point in which you've crafted them, you know, so carefully that you start to understand what, you know, what you want them to do next and everything. But I feel like for me, it's important redirect to like, Oh no, as authors, we're like making choices about what we want to, Put into it, which, of course, again, people who use these metaphors also feel and know, but it's just something about that metaphor. And I think it's, that's an important distinction just in terms of answering your question, because for me, it's not like falling into a world that is, scary the same way it is, like, when you read a book, like, hopefully when you read it, you fall into the world and it, is scary and in certain places. But for me, it's more like, oh, but you're, I'm like building it up. And so more it's like more things are like coming out of me or coming out of things that I read and so I don't really want to say it's like therapy, but I would say it's not and it does involve like going like deep inside myself and going into some dark places and that that's definitely true. In some ways writing is like good for my mental health, even if I produce books that may be bad for Jason's, yeah, I guess. But I still loved it. Yeah, I think it's like a fun book too, you know, I think it's scary, but like there's some funny moments. A hundred, that's what's so weird about it. And I could not stop reading it, but I was like, this is terrifying. And what's crazy is it's terrifying. in a new way. That's what's terrifying, is I've never been scared, like, in this way before. I'm used to things jumping out at me. Well, not used to things, but like, that's a, it's a, you know, it's just an uncommon way. I would say that, like, for, you know, this book, it's kind of gothic, and historically, like, the gothic novel, is the source of all of the fear is something supernatural, something like unknown, like a mysterious family curse or something. And here, the source of that unknown fear is like technology and how little we actually know about it. And so I think that is what is scary about it. And it's interesting, actually, like a lot of reviewers, I've stopped reading reviews because it's not good for my mental health, but when I was doing it, there were quite a few reviewers who were saying certain parts of the technology were like, this is just too improbable, but they would be naming parts that like do exist and are real. And so it's sort of like, I think what's actually most scary about those is that we kind of unconsciously know that it's possible and we want to be able to just say like, no, that's not, it's not possible. It's all, it's all fictional. And there's some like fictionalized, it's a little like black mirror esque, right? Like there's some, there's some fictionalized technology things that get dialed up a little bit more, but I do think like technology. is scary to us, and it's good to examine that terror. And so if it was, instead of technology, which we know exists and can be scary, if it was a story of the deep sea that was unseen, that's what would terrify you. Yes, and actually, it's funny, because the prologue is actually about, like, the terrifying deep sea, so that's, yeah. Alright, one final question, anyone? The question is I have a high scare threshold, which is a term I really like, and so it's is there anything that I was so I was like, no, that's too much. That's too scary for me to write about. I'll be away from that. Um, I don't actually know that I have, like, I think I have like a decently. high scare threshold, I guess, um, but again, like for me, I think in writing it is like a way of like approaching that fear. So for me, again, like it didn't, because like if I'm reading something, like if I'm reading something, I can get scared, and feel that fear. When I'm creating it, there is like a little bit of a fear, but it's like a fear because I'm like, you know, twisted or something. I'm like, Oh, I want to go into that so I don't I can't think of something that I was like, oh, this is too scary I can't write about it. I mean sometimes it scares me how good my writing is You know, what is scary is that it's not It's real. That's what's scary. It is not, it's, it's, it's scary in the way 1984 is scary. It is, you're not going to read it and be like, oh my God, I'm scared. Like that's, you can't sleep at night because of the murderer. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's not horror. It is, it's scary because the technology, we all know technology. is changing more rapidly than we can all understand it. That's what's scary, right? I also just remembered, as you were saying, that one thing that after my mom read my first book, um, it was really funny. My mom's not like the huge, well, she's like reading a lot more lately, but she's not like the biggest reader, you know? So, um, she read my book, and she was like, like, Sarah, I read your book, and I was like, ooh, okay, what's she gonna think? And she was like, You know, it's interesting, I just don't know where these dark things come from in your mind. And I was like, Me either, mom. No clue. Um, nothing in my childhood could have like possibly, no I'm just kidding, no. Um, it's not blaming this on my mom at all. But it was funny because it is like, it's um, I mean earlier Rachel Housel Hall was saying, Everybody's life is a crime story and did like such a wonderful job kind of talking us through that idea. And I think it's true. We all actually have these like dark parts of ourselves and, um, Yeah, some of us are lucky to, get to, enough to get to, like, inflict them on others, which is basically what the book is. Well, and similarly, I think we can all think through pieces of our lives and think how we're cursed. And we can think through pieces of our lives and think about all sorts of those things. Um, so I can't wait for all of you to buy the book and read it. And when you are having trouble sleeping because the world is scary, Just think of us. Yeah, and it'll bring you joy. And thank you all so much for coming. I really appreciate it. Like I said, this is like, I really haven't had very many book events. So it's really nice to get to talk to people and readers. I really appreciate it. Sarah Sligar! Sarah Thanks everyone. Thanks for tuning in. I will see you next week for our regularly scheduled programming. Have a great rest of your day. reading.