0:04

gays reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. gays reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. gays reading. Mhm.

Jason Blitman: 0:33

Hello, and welcome to Gays Reading. Thanks for joining. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and I am so glad to have you here today. I don't know about you, but I am just a little bit gayer having watched the Wicked, Wizard of Oz, The Wiz opening number of the Oscars, and I hope it brought you as much joy as it brought me. In other news, there are so many fantastic books coming out today. It is an insane release day, and I'm going to rattle off a few that I know I'm super excited about. We have Tilt by Emma Petit, Scorched Earth by Tiana Clark, Raising Hair by Chloe Dalton, Woodworking by Emily St. James, One Good Thing by Georgia Hunter. We also have I Leave It Up To You by Jinu Chong, his book. Comes out today, and he's next week's Gaze Reading guest. Also out today is Broken Country by Claire Leslie Hall, which I read, loved so much, and I couldn't let life go by without having her on Gaze Reading. And even though I already had a completely packed March schedule, I have a bonus episode with Claire this coming Thursday. I can't wait for you to hear that and to read her book, Broken Country. and finally, we have today's guest, Charlotte McConaughey. Her book, Wild Dark Shore, also comes out today. Joining me on today's episode as well is guest guest reader, the iconic Bruce Valanche. both Charlotte and Bruce, their bios can be found in the show notes. As always, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It means so much to an indie podcast like this one to get likes and reviews and follows. All the things that help spread the word. And if you're not following Gaze Reading on Instagram, we are at Gaze Reading over there. And right now there's a huge giveaway going on. I'm giving away 10 galley copies of the book, Harriet Tubman Live in Concert by Bob the Drag Queen. You're not going to want to miss that. So go check that out over on Instagram. We're also on YouTube. You can watch these conversations over there. We are all over the place. If you've been listening, you also know that I am so thrilled to be partnering with Aardvark Book Club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the United States can join today, enter the code GAYSREADING at checkout and get their first book for only 4, which includes free shipping. So head over to aardvarkbookclub. com, use the code GAYSREADING. Whew, those are all the things, and uh, all the information is in the show notes, it's in the link tree, and without further ado, thanks for being here and welcome to GAYSREADING, Charlotte McConaghy. This is just in case, like, something wonderful comes up as we greet each other. Because every once in a while something will, like, happen and I'm like, man, I really wish I'd hit record first thing because that person said something so profound or they complimented me.

Charlotte McConaghy: 3:42

I can compliment you, I don't know if I can say anything profound.

Jason Blitman: 3:48

Charlotte McConaughey? It's McConaughey, yes?

Charlotte McConaghy: 3:51

You can say, well, I, I say McConaughey, but you can

Jason Blitman: 3:54

McConaughey! No, don't, no, no, no, this is not a say whatever you'd like situation. I want to say what you would say. Someone um, Elif Shafak was on the show, and I asked how to pronounce her name, and she was like, call me whatever you want, and I was like, no, no, and she like would not let it go, and I said to her, what would your mother call you? And she said, Elif. I said, okay, I will call you the same thing that your mother calls you. So, Charlotte McConaughey, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Charlotte McConaghy: 4:24

you so much for having me.

Jason Blitman: 4:25

Here to talk to me about Wild Dark Shore, your new book. I'm gonna cut to the chase, Charlotte. Never in my life did I ever think that I would google wombat poop.

Charlotte McConaghy: 4:40

I've enriched your life.

Jason Blitman: 4:42

You have enriched my life, and I have to say, it was worth the google.

Charlotte McConaghy: 4:50

It's pretty weird, isn't it?

Jason Blitman: 4:52

that weird to say?

Charlotte McConaghy: 4:53

It's a crazy thing. Who would think that there's a creature that could poo squares?

Jason Blitman: 4:58

Pooh squares. How did you discover that?

Charlotte McConaghy: 5:02

Um, it was my partner's mother actually has wombats on her property and we went for a walk and she pointed out the poos and It was incredible. Laughter Laughter

Jason Blitman: 5:18

everything about this.

Charlotte McConaghy: 5:19

Laughter

Jason Blitman: 5:21

rest of your day.

Charlotte McConaghy: 5:23

Laughter

Jason Blitman: 5:25

This was really just a ploy for me to tell you I cannot believe you made me Google wombat poop. for our listeners who have not had a chance to read the book yet, do you have an elevator pitch for the book?

Charlotte McConaghy: 5:39

Uh I

Jason Blitman: 5:41

Or this is a good time to

Charlotte McConaghy: 5:42

Yes, I will. Yes, I'll give it a go. Um, okay, so Wild Dark Shore is the story of Dominic Salt and his three children, who are the caretakers of a very small, remote island, um, down near Antarctica. Uh, the island is It's very dangerous because it's being swallowed up by the, by rising sea levels. Um, so the research, um, the researchers have left and it's just Dom and his kids there now. Um, until the night of a really Disastrous storm happens and washes up, um, a woman onto the shore, and she's a very mysterious figure. Um, they can't work out why she's there. She's not telling them everything, but she quite quickly comes to realise that they're actually keeping secrets from her as well. Um, so it's a, it's a, I guess it's a romantic

Jason Blitman: 6:37

I was gonna say, I don't even know that you should say more.

Charlotte McConaghy: 6:40

I'll leave it there.

Jason Blitman: 6:41

Yeah, no, right, like, woman washes up on shore, dot dot

Charlotte McConaghy: 6:47

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 6:50

And a woman washes up on the wild, dark

Charlotte McConaghy: 6:52

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 6:55

the very first sentence of the book is so evocative. it is, I have hated my mother for most of my life, but it is her face I see as I drown. And I'm curious, what face do you think you would see?

Charlotte McConaghy: 7:13

Whoa. Big

Jason Blitman: 7:15

Whether it was while you were drowning or like, in some sort of dire situation, what do you, what do you think would be the face that you see?

Charlotte McConaghy: 7:23

I would definitely see my children,

Jason Blitman: 7:25

Mmm. Mm

Charlotte McConaghy: 7:27

just be, you know, devastated to be leaving them. Um. And maybe my partner too. I should say that, shouldn't I?

Jason Blitman: 7:41

No, that's a, this is a safe space. Whatever.

Charlotte McConaghy: 7:44

No, I'd probably think of him because he's the most likely person to rescue me. What about you? Who would you think of?

Jason Blitman: 7:52

That is a good question. You know, probably my husband. I have a very good relationship with my sisters, put them on the

Charlotte McConaghy: 8:03

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:04

um, and my mom doesn't listen to this podcast, so I don't feel guilty not saying her.

Charlotte McConaghy: 8:11

Yeah, I think for Rowan it's definitely not a case of, um, you know, her mum's not her best friend or anything like that. They're quite estranged. Well, I mean, her mum's Yeah, they had a really problematic or troubled relationship full of kind of trauma, um, so that was something that she was, I guess, unpacking in this, in this moment, and, and I think it's strange to her too that her mum comes into her mind at that moment,

Jason Blitman: 8:37

Yeah, it's almost like your life is flashing before your eyes, and you sort of like, stop to reflect whilst it's flashing. It's like, girl, let the life keep going! it, what's so interesting about the book is it really is this like, stranger comes to town story, I'm, and there's a line in the book that had me thinking, when is a stranger no longer a stranger?

Charlotte McConaghy: 9:02

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 9:04

When do you, what do you think

Charlotte McConaghy: 9:05

I guess there has to be some level of trust, I suppose. So, um, or I just, an intimacy with them, I think, to be able to kind of feel comfortable sharing who you are with them, then maybe that makes them not a stranger anymore. I mean, they, this, yeah, Rowan, I think, I think it's quite a, um, Swift, uh, immersion into this family that she has, just purely because they're the only ones on this island. They're, they're stuck in this very, um, uh, kind of perilous place, really, together. Um, and they really rely on each other, so I think that's another reason that they kind of bond so quickly. Um, and it's, I think, I mean, the sad thing is they're her people. She's just kind of met them too late in life. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 9:59

you, when you sort of click with someone, you click with them whether or not you know them or not. It's what, it's that feeling of like, you meet someone new and they don't feel like a

Charlotte McConaghy: 10:10

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's like suddenly you've got found family, isn't it?

Jason Blitman: 10:15

Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was uh, just an interesting thing to think about. Um. Not dissimilar from like, when does a, when does it go from a person that you know to a friend? You know, it's sort of, there is that sort of threshold,

Charlotte McConaghy: 10:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 10:32

is it about time spent together? But I think you saying trust

Charlotte McConaghy: 10:36

think it's trust and intimacy. Yeah. And I think that it is also, I mean, in just normal life, I think a friend for me would be someone that I could hang out with alone. Like that would be a real friend. Rather than someone that I just kind of see at a party or whatever.

Jason Blitman: 10:53

Right, someone who you, who you could spend time alone with, who you enjoy their company, who you trust, who you would want to be with and talk to, yeah. This is your, your third book in what you, you have called a thematic trilogy. So we have Migrations, we have Once There Were Wolves, and now Wild Dark Shore. when did your passion for the natural world come to be?

Charlotte McConaghy: 11:21

yeah, it's a good question because I didn't always write about this. I really loved fantasy epics as a kid. So that's what I was writing for my whole sort of first few years, of writing novels. And I think I was maybe, I think I was about 25 and I was at film school. I was studying screenwriting, and I just had this feeling like I needed to kind of get out into the world instead of hiding away from it and creating an imaginary world. And so after film school, I went and traveled. Um, and I, I went to the UK and Ireland and Iceland and, Sort of roaming around looking for my roots, my history. and I just had this real sense of, loss. And what I could kind of see was happening in the world around me. And,

Jason Blitman: 12:11

hmm.

Charlotte McConaghy: 12:12

I just didn't want to write about made up things when what was real was so kind of heartbreaking and so dramatic. You know, it was such I don't know, it just really got me thinking, so I had all these kind of really big thoughts swirling around in my mind, and that was when I met my partner as well, and he, he's very passionate about, the environment, He has staunchly been, you know, a vegetarian since he was like 19 years old. At first I sort of thought, oh no, how am I going to deal with this? But I, I, you know, you quickly realize it's the right thing to do, or at least it is for us. And so, um, you

Jason Blitman: 12:52

So you became a vegetarian.

Charlotte McConaghy: 12:53

I will, I, yes. It was kind of the only way.

Jason Blitman: 12:58

It's so funny that you say this because my husband has never full, he's never like always loved meat. He, he, you know, little funny pieces of chicken every now and then really bother him. He prefers a vegetarian diet, but he was never like. Declarative. He never declared himself a vegetarian, but he has recently. And so, in our home, we do a lot of vegetarian eating, and I'm just like, Alright, I guess I'll have a burger every now and then when I go out and about, but for the most part, it's

Charlotte McConaghy: 13:26

of are by default,

Jason Blitman: 13:27

Yeah.

Charlotte McConaghy: 13:28

Yeah, you just sort of have to become that, and, and I also realised that the, the, the small bits of meat that I was eating on my own or when we'd go out was just not really worth it for me, because I do actually believe that, or at least I believe in trying to. live as well as I can with as little impact as I can. And this just happens to be one thing that's not that difficult to do. Um, so, you know, I've embraced it for better or worse. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 13:59

journey into this passion for the natural world.

Charlotte McConaghy: 14:03

I mean, it sounds silly to say it like that, but

Jason Blitman: 14:06

No, I honestly, I truly don't think it sounds silly at all.

Charlotte McConaghy: 14:09

Yeah, it's just part of, I guess, thinking about our impact and how we can kind of make it as positive instead of negative as possible.

Jason Blitman: 14:20

Yeah.

Charlotte McConaghy: 14:21

Yeah, we try to do that in our day to day lives in a lot of ways as well. So yeah, I can definitely give credit to Morgan, he's been really amazing. Um,

Jason Blitman: 14:30

Thank you,

Charlotte McConaghy: 14:30

yeah. Thanks Morgan, you're making me a better person.

Jason Blitman: 14:34

You know, it's so interesting hearing you talk about The journey from writing fantasies, and I'm curious in a minute to hear about perhaps epic fantasies from your childhood that had an impact on you, but there, there's a question at some point in the book, I can't remember who asks who, but it's, do you like it here or would you prefer to be in the real world? And I'm so curious to know what the real world means to you. So, so for you to talk about now, the going from the fantasy world to the quote unquote real world, what does that even mean? Yeah. Mm

Charlotte McConaghy: 15:12

I think

Jason Blitman: 15:14

Yeah.

Charlotte McConaghy: 15:18

I was writing fantasy as a way for me to have experiences. I was, um, I was a really bored teenager. I wanted to, I wanted to experience big, um, life changing, dramatic moments. I wanted to have big relationships and I wanted them to be, um, Heroic and full of magic and beauty but also danger and I just wanted, you know, I just wanted to experience big things and that was why I wrote these kind of epic, epic fantasies. Um, but you, you get all that when you write fiction as well. So, um, I think for me it was just about recognizing that there, there are all those things. in the real world. Um, and I think for Rowan, when she says that, it's, it's because she's, and I will say this island, Shearwater Island, is based on, um, a real island, Macquarie, and it truly is like another planet. You step foot onto this place, and it feels like you have departed Earth. it's really extraordinary. It is so beautiful, and strange, and almost alien in a way, because it's

Jason Blitman: 16:37

I googled it upon reading the acknowledgements or your letter at the end, and I don't know that I wish I googled it first, because it's totally what I pictured, but there's something about really getting to lay eyes on

Charlotte McConaghy: 16:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:54

uh, sort of intense.

Charlotte McConaghy: 16:55

It is. Yeah, very much so. And I think, that's how Rowan feels when she kind of ari wakes up here. She feels like she's come into this. fantastical world. And so I guess in a way, I haven't moved that far from writing fantasy, have I?

Jason Blitman: 17:09

Yeah. Well, and that's what's so interesting, it's like, one can't even call this, uh, speculative fiction. Right? Cause it's like,

Charlotte McConaghy: 17:21

to be. It's meant to be fiction.

Jason Blitman: 17:23

Right. It is like, it's now. It's not. or like, the very near future, whatever that means. but yeah, and it's, it's extra funny to me that you are coming to me from tomorrow. Because I was like, oh, that's how near the future is. It's just simply tomorrow. yeah, I love that. Okay, what were some epic fantasies that you loved as a kid?

Charlotte McConaghy: 17:47

oh gosh, okay, so I really loved all of, I don't know if you would have heard of him. His name's Guy Gabriel Kay. He's an English fantasy author. He's old school. I love him so much. I grew up just obsessing over him. So he's got this whole kind of huge breadth of work. and you can just kind of sink into them. They're amazing. that's probably my main, he's my main guy who got me into it. Um, there'd be, there's other, there's plenty of others. But yeah. Do you like fantasy?

Jason Blitman: 18:16

You know, I, it is not my go to genre. It's so funny, because I could sit here and say, like, no, I'm not a fantasy person, but when I tell you that one of my favorite movies of all time is How to Train Your Dragon,

Charlotte McConaghy: 18:31

yeah, so good.

Jason Blitman: 18:32

like, it's so good. I just, I love a good story. And you know, so it's, that's what it is for me. It's, I can, if you want me to, to, I do struggle with books with maps, but. And, like, hard words and names to pronounce, but if I can, like, get over that, I just love a really good story.

Charlotte McConaghy: 18:54

Totally. Me too. Any genre. I'll take any genre. Happy. Happy to.

Jason Blitman: 18:58

a couple of years ago now when I was seeing, uh, a Not Station Eleven, but the next one. Sea of Tranquility. I was seeing Sea of Tranquility on everybody's favorite books of the year lists, and I was like,

Charlotte McConaghy: 19:11

What is

Jason Blitman: 19:12

I feel like I should read it, because it's on everyone's list, but this really isn't my genre. I read it. I devoured it. I loved it. I interviewed Emily. I was, I became like obsessed with the book, and it was, I think it was that that made me say, like, don't. Don't say no to a genre. Don't judge a

Charlotte McConaghy: 19:32

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Because, and she's got a, she's kind of this delicious crossover, isn't she? Of, of, of literary and speculative. Which is, yeah. I love that, that's sort of my perfect, perfect genre.

Jason Blitman: 19:47

Yeah. I know. Ooh. did your relationship with the world change in the process of writing this and the other two books, for

Charlotte McConaghy: 20:00

I think so. I think part of me has used the three novels to grapple with certain things, I, I tend to come at my stories from a, from an emotional kind of lens. So, or something that I'm trying to work out. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:17

Don't take this the wrong way, but like, no shit.

Charlotte McConaghy: 20:23

Yeah, sorry, that's a bit of an obvious thing to say. So, what I mean

Jason Blitman: 20:26

As I sit here hugging Wild Dark Shore, don't worry.

Charlotte McConaghy: 20:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:32

so you come to your books from an emotional place.

Charlotte McConaghy: 20:35

So the first one, I would say Migrations was from a place of sadness about, about the loss that I could see happening, the specifically species loss. Um, but also personal, you know, Franny is exploring incredible personal human loss and grief, um, that sort of ref, you know, reflects. that big external global loss. Um, so that's what that one was trying to wrestle with. once there were wolves, I would say was anger, rage. I was so angry with The way that I could see animals being treated, but also women. In Australia, we have this horrendous, epidemic of, violence against women, family violence. Women are getting murdered every, every, like constantly. There was a hundred last year women murdered. Um, by their partners. And that's a lot for Australia. We don't have a big population. That's just, just murdered by their romantic partners. so that was, that was all tied in together for me. I was really angry about that. so I wrote this story about, a woman who is highly empathetic and, basically has to kind of close herself off to that because she's so tired of the harm that she sees being done. and then Wild Dark Shore. These are all sounding super depressing and grim now that I say it like this, but anyway. The reason I start from these kind of dark places is so that I can write into somewhere brighter, lighter, um, to find their opposite.

Jason Blitman: 22:08

Yeah, yeah,

Charlotte McConaghy: 22:08

Wild Dark Shore, I think, is about fear. it's about fear of The loss that what's happening to our world is going to start making us experience. Fear of what's going to happen to our children. Fear of what we're sort of creating for them and leaving for them. What we're going to watch them go through.

Jason Blitman: 22:29

What it takes to face your fears.

Charlotte McConaghy: 22:31

absolutely, exactly. finding the courage to love despite the hazards of love. that's, and, and you know, understanding that. that kind of love is worth the risk. so, so I think, yeah, I guess in that way, you know, I, I sort of find a way for these books to help me have a more positive view of the world and, and, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:56

Yeah, I think that that's a tremendous way of changing your relationship with the world through these books. You know, I won't give anything away, but there is one tiny nugget, and like, I don't even know how I want to phrase this, there is a moment in the book where something very positive happens. Because of something terrible.

Charlotte McConaghy: 23:22

Oh, what is it? Which bit? Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 23:25

this part out of the episode, but I have never looked at climate change in a glass half full kind of way before. And like, I, I sort of feel very sacrilegious to my fellow humans even saying that out loud, but like, you sort of have to understand the world that we're living in, you know what I mean? And this book certainly helped shape that. What are, what are fears of yours?

Charlotte McConaghy: 23:51

um,

Jason Blitman: 23:52

Therapy session! What are you scared of?

Charlotte McConaghy: 23:55

I think I'm, I'm I feel like my life is probably going to be fine, you know, that's the, that's the reality, We'll start seeing really sad things happening, but I live in a very privileged part of the world, and therefore, I think I will probably be okay. my children may not. I don't, I don't, I don't know if it'll be them or if it'll be their grandchildren, but it's, you know, it's, things are going to get much, much worse very quickly. we're gonna start losing, so much of our wild, wild things, our wild animals and our wild places and our, you know, our biodiversity. It's all just struggling so badly. And I hate to think of a world that's. lost so much beauty, and just becomes about survival. That really scares me. I'm scared for all the people who are already living in dangerous places. you know, the wildfires at the moment are just so devastating. It's a real, it's a serious thing. This current threat. And I think, you know, we can't, I don't know, I don't even know how to kind of, fight all of this when we're constantly, um, voting in just psychopaths.

Jason Blitman: 25:11

Mm hmm. Well, and it's, it's, again, I don't even want to say interesting, because me talking about this not being speculative fiction, like, you literally could have written it today. You know, yesterday, right? There's so much in the book, the wildfires, the rising tides, the all sorts of things. it's not about what's to come and being scared of those things. It's about sort of understanding our world a little bit better, becoming a little bit more empathetic, kinder. The book is about like, I don't want to say misunderstandings, but it's about, there's so much about trust.

Charlotte McConaghy: 25:52

hmm.

Jason Blitman: 25:54

And perspectives, and understanding that we're all a little different, you know, and that's like a very simple, I don't want to give anything away, but those are just some simple words that sort of come to mind. It's about observation, it's about intuition, it's about reading people and trusting people, and those I think are such interesting takeaways beyond anything happening in the world. Because, because these are other things that we can sort of control

Charlotte McConaghy: 26:24

Yeah. Yeah. As in how we interact with each other.

Jason Blitman: 26:28

Exactly. Right, right,

Charlotte McConaghy: 26:29

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the, that's the kind of fun about writing a mystery. You know, you have to really, Get into the mechanics of trust and mistrust and, um, um, You know, I, I loved the interplay between the sort of, Her falling in love with this family versus

Jason Blitman: 26:52

hmm. Mm hmm.

Charlotte McConaghy: 26:53

I mean, that's, I hope, that's a little bit of a spoiler, I suppose, but,

Jason Blitman: 26:58

could bleep that out.

Charlotte McConaghy: 27:01

but like, how can those two things coexist in the same body? I found that really kind of interesting, you know, how can you be falling in love with someone and suspecting him of sort of the worst crime ever, So, yeah, that was fun. I really enjoyed writing those kind of elements And I think that her, you know, as you say, that her, particularly her relationship with the children, is very profound for her because she has, really kind of removed herself from the possibility of, of having children, but also loving children, and she, she's just so frightened of what the world is going to do, and how she can, of the, the hazards that exist around us now and, you know, she's already experienced the loss of a child through. Because of climate change, um, and, and so she's really closed herself off to that and I just, I loved kind of exploring how these kids could chip their way through that armor that she had and become, you know, sort of the most important relationships she's ever had.

Jason Blitman: 28:07

and also, help her redefine what some of that can even

Charlotte McConaghy: 28:12

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You, exactly. I loved the idea that, you know, I wanted the novel to leave space for people who don't have kids of their own, who can't or don't want to, um, but who also love. Children who love other people's children and love the world, the wild planet, you know, with that, with as much generosity and courage.

Jason Blitman: 28:37

a hundred percent It was so strange. I was Facetiming with a good friend earlier today. And I can't remember the context of why it came up, but she said this phrase. Um, she said, to what degree are you willing to be a part of the problem in the world? Like, that was sort of the, the, the, the sentiment that she was trying to say. And I was like, wait, that is so crazy that you're saying that, I need to write that down right now because of the conversation I'm about to have. Because that's like, I mean, it's everything that we were talking about from vegetarianism to children to, like, Okay, what's, what's the degree of the, of the issue here? What are we willing to sacrifice? You know?

Charlotte McConaghy: 29:15

Yeah, absolutely. And it is going to start coming down to that, isn't it? What, what, what do we as individuals what are we willing to sacrifice for this, because we're not going to be able to change anything unless we all start making sacrifices, and I'm certainly not saying that we should all stop having children,

Jason Blitman: 29:32

No, no, no, but it is part

Charlotte McConaghy: 29:34

conversation, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 29:36

absolutely, and it, and it, it's a matter of it bringing in a new question to the conversation.

Charlotte McConaghy: 29:42

that's right, yeah, and for people who genuinely feel like that's not something they're willing to do, then You know, it's kind of a good thing to take one for the team, you know. We do, we have a lot of, a lot of people on this planet.

Jason Blitman: 29:56

yeah, exactly. Exactly. You brought up the children, I fell in love with them deeply. I am obsessed with Orly. I cannot wait for the world to meet Orly. Is he, he, Orly, for, for the listeners, Orly is, Dom's youngest, youngest son who's nine. And, was he inspired by anyone in your life, or was he, did he just, like, flow out of you?

Charlotte McConaghy: 30:24

Yeah, he kind of just came. I wanted him, I, I just, Yeah, I really loved him from the start, from the get go. I mean, in a, in some ways, it's a weird thing. He's kind of my son. My son's only three, but, you know, I, I kind of, I did a lot of

Jason Blitman: 30:41

Projecting.

Charlotte McConaghy: 30:42

imagining, yeah, imagining what he might be like and, um,

Jason Blitman: 30:45

so sweet!

Charlotte McConaghy: 30:47

so he's definitely, there's parts of Finn in there. and other, you know, there's a lot, I've got a lot of kids in my life, my friends have lots of kids, I wanted him to feel real, but also, you know, particularly lovable and particularly sweet, because I, I wanted all three of the children to be, I guess very generously drawn. I didn't want, I, I think there's a trope when you write, particularly about teenagers, is, When you're not writing from a YA lens, when you're writing, um, from the, the, the adult's, um, perspective and you're writing about teenagers, I think there's a bit of a, we fall into the whole bratty teenage thing very easily, and I just It's not my experience of most of the teenagers I know. I was very, I was a good girl. I just, I wanted, I suppose I just wanted to, you know, have them feel very kind and generous and, and, and it was important to me that they have this incredibly strong family core, you know, that the, the four of them be this sort of, um, really loving kind of bonded, um, place to start from so that, you know, I could get into the conflict after that, but, but I wanted it to feel like they were just sort of really, really They really, really love each other.

Jason Blitman: 32:12

As I was saying earlier, a person with two younger siblings that I so related to that family, and it's rare that I finish a book and like, or even while I'm reading a book, think about wanting to meet a character or hang out with a character. And orally is that person I'm like, I just wanna hang out with orally. How weird is that? He is so precocious and joyful.

Charlotte McConaghy: 32:34

And so

Jason Blitman: 32:35

But you're, but he's not, it's not s you don't, you're not like writing. I don't want anyone to think that it's like twee. It's not. It's, he's just like a fully, they're all fully fleshed out, living, breathing characters in my imagination. This is so random, are you familiar with the book Big Tree by Brian Selznick?

Charlotte McConaghy: 32:55

No. Should

Jason Blitman: 32:55

Okay, Brian wrote the Invention of Hugo Cabret, like that, those, those books. I highly recommend it. It is, and it's perfect for your children as well. But it is the, it is the entire life of Two Seeds.

Charlotte McConaghy: 33:14

Oh, wow. How beautiful. I would love to read that.

Jason Blitman: 33:19

beautiful. It is so good. And I, and I think you'll

Charlotte McConaghy: 33:24

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 33:24

after

Charlotte McConaghy: 33:25

great tip. Yeah. Because as, as you would be referencing, there is, there are stories of seeds threaded throughout this novel. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 33:34

How did you even choose those?

Charlotte McConaghy: 33:36

well that was hard. That was I honestly, at a few, a few points during that, I thought, what have I done to myself? This is just so difficult. the dandelion one was the first one. so it sort of tells you the life story of a dandelion seed and all the creatures that it, sustains, all the creatures that feed from

Jason Blitman: 33:57

impacts along the

Charlotte McConaghy: 33:58

this one dandelion. Yeah. just as a way to, I guess. I wanted to show the interconnectedness of the, of everything living. and I also need to, it's, it's a tricky thing when you decide you want to write a book about seeds. they're certainly not as charismatic as say, a beautiful bird or a wolf, which I have done in the past. And so I had a bit of a challenge with this one about how I was going to make people love seeds. I remember I told my grandma I was writing a book about a seabed, but she was like, Oh, that sounds very boring. okay. So, I needed to bring them to life.

Jason Blitman: 34:36

Yes, I wanted to Google every single one of them. I did. And I'm, and you are experiencing the world through these

Charlotte McConaghy: 34:45

yeah, that's good, well that's, I was trying to sort of, yeah, I wanted to give a sense of, they're actually quite extraordinary, a lot

Jason Blitman: 34:54

Yeah, they really are.

Charlotte McConaghy: 34:55

they're really, um, strange and beautiful and they live these kind of mysterious magical lives that we know nothing about and yet they're kind of responsible for. all life on the planet, in a way. I, I don't know how I chose them. I had this amazing book, might be on the, yeah, I had this incredible book with photography of seeds.

Jason Blitman: 35:16

Photography of

Charlotte McConaghy: 35:17

it's ama some of them look just Extraordinary, like they're

Jason Blitman: 35:23

What is, what is the book

Charlotte McConaghy: 35:25

show you. It is The Hidden Beauty of Seeds and Fruit. And so it's got like, just really kind

Jason Blitman: 35:33

Oh, wow.

Charlotte McConaghy: 35:40

of beautiful, strange images, some of them are like crazy.

Jason Blitman: 35:46

Oh my god, that's very

Charlotte McConaghy: 35:48

Yeah, so I was just sort of flipping through this a lot and, and trying to sort of, I don't know, find seeds that were interesting, but that were also attached to her. that I could tell a story about. yeah, so,

Jason Blitman: 36:02

Oh my god, thank you for flipping through that. Everyone has to go watch this on YouTube because it looks so cool. wait, did the, did the book come first or did the idea for the scene, did you own the book already?

Charlotte McConaghy: 36:12

no, I knew I wanted to, to, um, write about seeds. and so I

Jason Blitman: 36:16

you bought, the book, yeah,

Charlotte McConaghy: 36:17

Yeah. I was trying to look for anything that would

Jason Blitman: 36:19

It's a beautiful book.

Charlotte McConaghy: 36:21

Yeah. It was so good. It was just the best. So helpful. Yeah, that's pretty much how I started, and then a lot of just research specifically on each of the, The, I will say the Wollemi Pine. There's a story in the book about the Wollemi Pine, and, that came before any of this book. That was the very first thing, that came, and I knew.

Jason Blitman: 36:40

that the like, prickly one?

Charlotte McConaghy: 36:42

It's the one, um, it's the dinosaur tree. So, the Wollemi Pine was thought to be extinct for millions of years, and then it was rediscovered. this tiny little, patch of them in an Australian bush, hidden away. It had been hiding for millions of years. They, they re, they rediscovered it again. Um, and it had to be kept secret because it can't be, um, you know, they've got to make sure it's protected at all times. And then the fires were raging towards it, our really shocking fires that we had a few years ago. Um, and And all over the news was the story of these incredible, um, like rescue firefighters that were being dropped from helicopters down into the forest in order to make a barrier around these

Jason Blitman: 37:33

yes, this, I'm remembering

Charlotte McConaghy: 37:34

and save them, sort of, no matter what, because they're, you know, so, so precious. And they would have been extinct if this was the last, the last ones had burned and they did, they saved them. and I just remember thinking, this is, mean, what an amazing story about the things that we choose to save and so that's sort of where this whole idea started.

Jason Blitman: 37:56

Might you say it was the seed?

Charlotte McConaghy: 38:00

It was the seed.

Jason Blitman: 38:04

I love that. Fen, the daughter, it is said that she is basically one of the seals. If there was a creature that you could be one of, what would it be?

Charlotte McConaghy: 38:19

Oh man, that's hard. favourite

Jason Blitman: 38:23

that's very sweet, but that's hard.

Charlotte McConaghy: 38:25

I love animals! Um,

Jason Blitman: 38:29

You could say a few. I

Charlotte McConaghy: 38:31

obviously, like, I love wolves in particular. I write a whole book about them. I love them and I find them endlessly fascinating. They're so,

Jason Blitman: 38:38

Yeah.

Charlotte McConaghy: 38:40

so misunderstood, so kind of gentle and family oriented and, um, So yeah, you know, it'd be nice to be part of a wolf pack, I think. That would be, you'd be pretty, um, pretty safe if you were part of a wolf pack. whales. I love whales. Although to be honest, I don't think I would want to live under the ocean.

Jason Blitman: 39:00

Why? Mmm. Okay.

Charlotte McConaghy: 39:02

I get, I have, I have anxiety about being underwater.

Jason Blitman: 39:06

Well, if you were a whale, although I guess, right, you wouldn't, if you were, no, you're a person among the whales, so, okay, that's fair, that's fair, that's fair,

Charlotte McConaghy: 39:14

But yeah, I guess after a while you wouldn't be worried about that, would you?

Jason Blitman: 39:17

right, no, I didn't say what would you want to, like, come back as, no, I, you answered the question correctly, thank you,

Charlotte McConaghy: 39:24

what would you choose?

Jason Blitman: 39:27

you know, I, I don't know,

Charlotte McConaghy: 39:30

It's hard.

Jason Blitman: 39:30

I'm, yeah, I think I'm sort of, like, intimidated by the natural world, slash, slash, I don't want to say disgusted, I'm thinking of like, of the seals, and like, when you go, this is terrible. In San Diego, there's a cove in La Jolla, where there's just like, endless amounts of seals on the beach. And rocks. And so, it's like a very smelly area and so I like can't help but picture that and I'm just like why would someone want to be among that?

Charlotte McConaghy: 40:07

I mean, that's fair. I would look at that and think, oh, it's so beautiful and, you know, and then probably the reality of if I actually went down into it would be horrifying.

Jason Blitman: 40:18

Right, right. That's sort of what I mean. Yeah, you like see them, you know nipping at each other and I'm like, oh I don't want to though, right, but I guess if I was if I was to just like Get along with the creature and be amongst them. What would it be? You know, I recently went to see the giant pandas at the San Diego Zoo, and they like really are as sort of goofy as all the videos online make them out to be, and they're just like happy, and they're silly, and they like are very carefree, and they just eat snacks, and I feel like I would, I would thrive

Charlotte McConaghy: 40:58

Yeah, that sounds amazing.

Jason Blitman: 41:00

Silly and eating snacks.

Charlotte McConaghy: 41:02

I'm just cuddling. I'm really cuddly.

Jason Blitman: 41:05

Very cuddly. Yeah, that's my answer for right now, I think.

Charlotte McConaghy: 41:09

That's a great answer.

Jason Blitman: 41:12

So, back to Fen. She has this really amazing quality where she, can be very calm and very zen. Is that, are you, is that you at all?

Charlotte McConaghy: 41:23

I think it was definitely me before I had kids. I feel less calm now. Um, I guess actually in some ways I feel less calm, in other ways I feel more calm. You know, I have like You have to go into that mom calm, which is stay calm through screaming crazy. Multiple people screaming at you thing. Um,

Jason Blitman: 41:54

Whereas, as an American, mom calm. Just, it's uglier. Uglier sounding. Anyway.

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:00

what did I say? Mom calm. Mom calm.

Jason Blitman: 42:07

I'm giving you a complex, I'm sorry.

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:10

Now I'm feeling like I talk like a bogan. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 42:13

No, you don't! Oh my god. I watched too much Kath Kim.

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:21

I love Catherine Kim. Um, yeah, look, I think, I think in general, yeah, I'm, I'm a pretty calm

Jason Blitman: 42:32

A generally calm person, yeah. Okay, on the flip side, do you have your version of the bag? The punching bag!

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:39

Oh, the punching bag. No,

Jason Blitman: 42:41

do you do to blow off steam?

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:43

don't vibe with the punching bag at all. Um,

Jason Blitman: 42:48

You don't need to get out

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:49

No, and I, well, you know, I have my moments, everyone

Jason Blitman: 42:54

Sure, sure,

Charlotte McConaghy: 42:54

moments, particularly like waking up 50 million times in the middle of the night, the punching bag thing to me is a very, um, I wasn't sure if, if this is a comment on slight toxic masculinity, um, in terms of. The need for everything to be about aggression.

Jason Blitman: 43:15

Hm.

Charlotte McConaghy: 43:15

and what Dom is capable of teaching his son. And I suppose I wanted And look, my partner would say that's ridiculous and that you actually sometimes just need a physical outlet for things, sure.

Jason Blitman: 43:28

Mm hmm.

Charlotte McConaghy: 43:29

but the whole, the punching thing is For me, I don't know, I think teaching young boys to deal with anger and aggression by punching things is not necessarily helpful. and I suppose I wanted Rowan to kind of offer us a different perspective on that and, and

Jason Blitman: 43:51

And she

Charlotte McConaghy: 43:52

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:53

There's a great line that I underlined. that's interesting. I think for me there, it's almost the opposite where I need to learn how to channel any frustration

Charlotte McConaghy: 44:06

yeah, okay. yeah, yeah, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 44:08

Right. And not keep it inside. Because the things that it can do to you internally, um, it doesn't need to be aggression or it doesn't need to be outwardly aggressive, but how do you, how do you take something? How do you release it? Yeah.

Charlotte McConaghy: 44:23

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:24

How do you, if you're not being violent, how do you release your frustrations? This is a teachable moment for me.

Charlotte McConaghy: 44:31

Well, this is something that I need to learn as well. So, I think we're

Jason Blitman: 44:34

Oh,

Charlotte McConaghy: 44:34

in this together because I don't have an outlet, really. It's my writing, I think.

Jason Blitman: 44:40

Oh, sure. That's a great

Charlotte McConaghy: 44:43

always writing from a place of anger or frustration, but I

Jason Blitman: 44:46

no, no, no, no.

Charlotte McConaghy: 44:47

of, um, you know, you can just get stuff out in a way that's, you I don't know, I suppose it helps you to kind of navigate it a little bit. A lot of people say, would say exercise, but I really hate exercise. I hate it. I find it so boring. I think oftentimes even if we, it is the talking thing, like if we can articulate something and name it. It's much easier to let go of it. And I'm trying to teach my son that, you know, he's, he's a three nager at the moment and he's having a lot of big, angry moments and it's hard when he's three because it's like, well how do you he doesn't have the capability of being rational. Um, so how am I gonna you know, show him that actually if he can name what he's feeling it will probably be gone. Rather than I'm just gonna stomp around and like break something or You know,

Jason Blitman: 45:42

Yeah, it's interesting. I do this on every episode. I also include a guest gay reader. And one of the things I ask them is, I ask them what they're reading. And then I ask them, what are they reading? What are, what is a grievance they have that they want to air? And I've been thinking a little bit about maybe getting rid of that because I think some people hear reading as like a, sort of a negative something towards somebody or something. But I also think that like, in our world right now, when there's a million things that are just terrible, that the thing that's bugging you that seems so small, that you haven't articulated, is like still festering inside of you. So Here, this is your safe space, you know, complain about the construction on your street But your friend doesn't care about hearing it because they have other shit going on You know what I mean? And so like it's just interesting that we actually all really need to be Expressing

Charlotte McConaghy: 46:37

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 46:38

your son

Charlotte McConaghy: 46:39

Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a hundred percent, like I think things lose their power over us as soon as we say them out loud. and so, and that's one of the things that this family don't have because they can't communicate with each other. They've got a father who is so stoic and Quiet and does not know how to talk about how he's feeling or talk to his children about how they're feeling so they've, they've not grown up with this ability to Like properly kind of feel their feelings I think that's why they're suffering so much and that's, that's a big thing that Rowan brings to them is that she's trying to sort of, I suppose, teach them how to all communicate with each other and how to talk about how they feel.

Jason Blitman: 47:22

Yeah, so speaking of as we're coming to the end of our conversation. I don't want to give anything away. but there are elements of queer love in the

Charlotte McConaghy: 47:31

Mm hmm.

Jason Blitman: 47:32

and I would love if you could share a bit about why that was something that you included.

Charlotte McConaghy: 47:37

Yeah, sure. to be honest, I didn't give it a huge amount of thought because there's, I have a lot of queer people in my life and, It just felt true, you know? It felt like, just a real relationship and a real character. I wanted, I always want to kind of make the worlds that I write feel real, and that to me felt real.

Jason Blitman: 48:00

I love that. It can be that simple, too. Every once in a while, I'm curious to ask, because you sort of never know An author's experience. In fact, strange. The person who said that quote to me earlier today also was just talking to me about the bright sword, the book. And in the bright sword, uh, there's a trans character. And when I was in conversation with the author, I just asked about that and he told me that his kid is trans. And it was just again, like a really interesting perspective and why it was so important to him to include that in the story. Um, so I always, you know, it's always just interesting where it comes from. And even hearing, I didn't think twice about it, is sort of amazing.

Charlotte McConaghy: 48:40

yeah, good. I mean, yeah. My mum's queer. My best friend Charlie's queer. Like, it's just, you know, it's just kind of a normal thing in my life and I would hate to erase that from my stories.

Jason Blitman: 48:50

Yeah. and I just fell in love with this family, and congratulations. I can't wait for the world to read it.

Charlotte McConaghy: 48:58

Thank you so much. It's been such a nice chat. Really nice talking to you.

Jason Blitman: 49:02

Oh, I'm so glad Zona's talking to you too. But truly it was a pleasure to read, and you're a delight to talk to, and I'm so grateful that you were here on Gays Reading.

Charlotte McConaghy: 49:11

you so much for having me. It's just been so lovely.

Jason Blitman: 49:14

Well thanks Charlotte McConaughey. I am so thrilled to have you as my guest gay reader today.

Bruce Vilanch: 49:18

Thank you. Great to be here.

Jason Blitman: 49:20

You have written 700 award shows. You have starred on the Broadway. And, as we've already discovered, you are everyone's favorite Donna Kelsey

Bruce Vilanch: 49:34

You know, It happened about a year ago at the Super Bowl, and I got these calls saying, Dude, what are you doing at a box with Taylor Swift at the Super Bowl? So of course I had to tune in, I was waiting for the halftime, because I don't care about the game. And there she was. And I thought, my God, it's me. Blonde, red glasses, chubbiness. And I thought I hope they stay together because I'm going to ride this joke for as long as I possibly can. And there they were again. But now that they lost this time, the whole dynamic may change. Who knows?

Jason Blitman: 50:07

That's a shame.

Bruce Vilanch: 50:08

Yeah, I know. The heat is off.

Jason Blitman: 50:12

How you haven't been on Saturday Night Live or

Bruce Vilanch: 50:14

I've been done on Saturday Night Live. When I was 20 years ago on Hollywood Squares, which was actually 20 years ago, they did me a few times. Horatio Sands did me. And Will Sasso did me on MADtv. And somebody else did me. I I think Bobby Moynihan did me on SNL at one point. Yeah, whoever the fat guy was on the show, they, at the time? Yeah. It didn't make it to the 50th anniversary show, I noticed, but I certainly gave them enough fuel.

Jason Blitman: 50:43

It's like being a, Monday answer in the New York times crossword. You've made it big enough. that you're an easy answer,

Bruce Vilanch: 50:50

Absolutely. When I was I was, wrote for Bob Hope years and years ago in the 70s. And and I was working with Bette Midler. And at one point he we had, he were going through old jokes that he had. And we had a file of Phyllis Diller jokes. Which were based basically about. Crazy, wild women, and he was looking at this guy and said, yeah, let's use this one. We'll we'll toss out Phyllis and we'll put in your friend, Betty Midler. I thought, oh my God, other than the mispronunciation, he knows who she is. And I called her and I said, Hope is putting you in his monologue. He would not do that unless you were well known all over the place. So you can retire now,

Jason Blitman: 51:33

but heads up. He's going to call you Betty.

Bruce Vilanch: 51:36

Yeah, he no, we, I corrected him. Yeah. Right away. right away. But we had many stories about people, people on marquee changing the spelling and all that, but yeah, cheese. So I, that it was like a hallmark of a recognition. That that Hope would put her in the monologue.

Jason Blitman: 51:53

That makes me think, I wonder if there's a story of anyone who. was early enough in their career who then changed their name because someone pronounced it wrong.

Bruce Vilanch: 52:03

No, but, Dion, this is ridiculous, but Dionne Warwick added an E to Warwick because her numerologist told her it would bring her luck. And so for some time she was Dionne Warwicky. And everybody just ignored it. Except Kay Ballard. Kay Ballard was so pissed off. She took, and she went to that numerology, she took her E off of K. For a while. And she didn't even go to the numerologist. She later said she went to, that wasn't the story. She was pissed off. Because she already had enough trouble being mistaken for Kay Stevens. Who was another comedian actress of that period. So that I, but the changing the pronunciation I'm sure there was somebody, but I, it seems to me there was somebody. I just can't remember who it'll come to. Maybe they're coming to me in a blinding flash.

Jason Blitman: 52:57

I feel like I could say a word and you could jump into a fabulous story That word evokes in You

Bruce Vilanch: 53:04

you've been around enough that there's always something that you can attach it to. If you're of a mind.

Jason Blitman: 53:11

I was going to say, and the fact that you remember them, listen, for all I know, you're making them up.

Bruce Vilanch: 53:15

No, that was a true one.

Jason Blitman: 53:19

Okay, Donna. What are you reading? You're my guest guy

Bruce Vilanch: 53:22

Other than my book, I was thinking about that. I have three bathrooms in the house, and so there are books piled up. And I was looking through the collection, and I realized I have certain passions, that I read about that are not necessarily ones you want to tout, but, I loaded up with show business biographies, because, partially because I, there are people I know I want to see if I'm in them in Barbara's book, which is 3, 400, I'm on page 1, 042 of the 3, 000 pages, at 48 hours of audible recording. But,

Jason Blitman: 53:55

who cares you're in it.

Bruce Vilanch: 53:56

but I'm not in it, there was no index, but Vanity Fair did an index. And I immediately went to that, and I'm not in the book. And I, I know her. We had an incident 20 years ago. And I thought she's gotten over it. I was so pleased to see that.

Jason Blitman: 54:10

that's a good thing.

Bruce Vilanch: 54:11

So I do have a lot of that, One Bathroom is a the biography of Reinhard Heydrich who, It ran the SS and had the final solution and all this, and was killed in the, anyway. It's based on interviews with his wife, which is fascinating. And then I love gay novels. I love, and I love mysteries. So I read, there are gay mysteries. I'm reading one now, which is it's called The Winkler Affair, which is not Henry. He's straight. it's a series apparently I didn't know about, but, uh, it's double indemnity with gay guys

Jason Blitman: 54:41

Oh, that's fun.

Bruce Vilanch: 54:42

in the seventies. It's an interesting parlay. it was recommended to me and I've just gotten into it. I have a whole bunch of books I noticed in the stack that are like biographies of hotels. They're books about famous hotels and the stories of things, how they were founded and run, and how they changed, and incidents that happened in them, like the plaza, and in New York, and the Savoy, in London, and and also the Connaught there's a book about. The Waldorf there, it's fascinating because it's about a kind of microcosm

Jason Blitman: 55:15

There are multiple books like this.

Bruce Vilanch: 55:17

There are multiple books There are also, I have multiple books on the Titanic. Shipwrecks. I love shipwrecks. I'm fascinated. I think because when I was a kid, the big book about the Titanic was published, A Night to Remember, which was a movie and and the inspiration for James Cameron's picture many years later. Of course that is already 25 years ago and it, but it's inspired every nerd who was fascinated by the Titanic, like me, to find some aspect of it,

Jason Blitman: 55:48

Is there something new that you're learning?

Bruce Vilanch: 55:50

Yeah. Yeah. But it's not, they're not, it's not so much new. Is it like it confirms something you've heard someplace else? For example, I will tell you,

Jason Blitman: 55:59

cross referencing.

Bruce Vilanch: 56:00

is the most arcane Titanic. The French Bulldog was created at the turn of the 20th century in France by people who made various kinds of bulldogs and got them down to a size and a certain kind of look with the bat ears and all of that. And it was a brand new breed that had not really been discovered, but it was quite the rage in Paris and There was lots of demand for French bulldogs in the United States. Every French bulldog is essentially descended from this one male that was the perfect French bulldog. This perfect French bulldog was sent to America to mate with other bulldogs to create the breed over here. He was shipped over on the Titanic. He apparently survived the sinking and was seen by several survivors, like Kate Winslet, floating on a door, lying on a piece of wreckage, floating around. There was this weird looking dog. And most of the dogs died. died, obviously, but and they never did, they never found this one. The presumption is he froze because it was, he fell in the water and froze. But, and they're not, they don't swim, they can't, their bodies are not built, they can barely mate because of the way their bodies are built. This arcane piece of information has now in the Titanic lore. And, the, which, I think that's absolutely just fascinating. And more evidence keeps coming up because they comb, all, everybody's been dead for years, right? And the ones who were alive, I interviewed, when I was in the 70s, when I interviewed, at the Chicago Tribune, interviewed Titanic survivors on the history of the thing. They were all old then. They were kids. They were all children when they were on the boat, the ship, pardon me. Sure. So now they're all gone. And but you comb through, diaries and things they left and then there'll be a stray reference to I thought I was hallucinating I saw a dog, floating around. Not swimming, but floating around. Which is evidence that it was the French Bulldog. Because the French Bulldogs don't swim. If she saw a dog swimming, it could have been Lassie, could have been Rin Tin.

Jason Blitman: 58:20

appreciate that you used the term stray reference.

Bruce Vilanch: 58:25

Yeah, that's right. A stray reference.

Jason Blitman: 58:27

That was a fabulous accidental

Bruce Vilanch: 58:29

Yeah, good. Okay, thanks. I forgot I did that. Oh, wow. Chalk that up. Anyway, so that's the kind of, I'm always reading that kind of stuff. When they were shooting Titanic, I was actually on the set for a minute. It was down in Mexico. Why? I had friends who were in it. Victor Garber was playing Thomas Andrews, who designed the ship. And I had some other people in it, but I think I went to see Victor. But the there they were shooting the scene where Kate Winslet is on the stern. And she's contemplating jumping off. And I said, This is ironic, a woman commits suicide on the Titanic. But clearly she was not a psychic. She didn't see her numerologist. No, she had no kind of metaphysical advice on

Jason Blitman: 59:12

Oh my god. Always get your advice Before the intercontinental

Bruce Vilanch: 59:18

Yeah, I wonder if this is what the picture is about. About this woman. Who kills herself, for no reason because she could go anyway.

Jason Blitman: 59:28

I think I'm most concerned that you are spending as much time as you are in the bathroom.

Bruce Vilanch: 59:35

Oh you get to a certain age and that's what happens. You take your Align every day and,

Jason Blitman: 59:40

That's where you can read. Listen,

Bruce Vilanch: 59:42

you can read. And, you're on a lot of of um water pills, because that part of it is that you keep shedding water. So don't ask. It's all

Jason Blitman: 59:52

Things to look

Bruce Vilanch: 59:53

these are all things that will and all things you will find out quickly in Palm Springs. Actually,

Jason Blitman: 59:58

bruce, we have to talk about your book. it seemed like a bad idea at the time, the worst TV shows in history, and other things I wrote. This came to be because you were on a lot of podcasts with the young people. who were digging up all the old things that you never thought were gonna see the light of day.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:00:16

I couldn't believe it. They would ask me about these things I wrote in the 70s and 80s. And they said, what do you remember? And I said if you say you remember the 70s, you weren't there. Because a lot of these ideas were cooked up in clouds of smoke. Yeah. Yeah, but that, but it was all, it was crazy. There were a lot of very crazy shows. I just happened to pick out some of the ones that I was involved in that are notorious because they're on the internet. And they continue. And they have a relevance because Star Wars is still around. The Brady Bunch are still around. And Halloween is still around. So whenever Halloween comes around, the Paul and Halloween special shows up. Because it's one of the few things you can watch with your kids, where nobody gets slashed. Because Halloween is all about that, and Hocus Pocus, which, Betsing, which is where nobody gets slashed, I don't think. I don't remember, maybe. Maybe in Hocus Pocus 3, to amuse everybody.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:10

Did you go back and watch all these things in prep of writing this?

Bruce Vilanch: 1:01:14

I had to. It was, I had to make sure that I wasn't misremembering, and I had an editor who came back and said, with occasionally things I was, I, he said I don't, this probably didn't happen in the sequence you're relating it, because of the dates don't quite jibe and all that, now that you can go online and do all of that, and it's a, it certainly is a boon to editors, because, I don't know how he would have done that otherwise. But, yeah, but, yeah, and and I was conflating things every now and again, but we straightened it. So I would go back and look at it and, straighten it out.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:48

What kind of memories did it bring back?

Bruce Vilanch: 1:01:51

Visceral pain. I was this sounds so odd, but a kinder, gentler time. I don't know if that's even true, but it was it was a smaller town, it was a smaller business. The television was most, in most places, the three networks and whatever local stations were, any market could scare up. And the world was not as much with us. There wasn't there wasn't a 24 hour news cycle, there, there wasn't keyboard warfare. The while there was tremendous political division, it wasn't crazy and mean spirited the way it is now. Or I should just say, you didn't get exposed to that, because now we have a culture where it's all high school. It's narcissism central. People go on keyboard warfare to express their unfiltered opinion and to have fights about it. And you had to go to a bar to do that, back then. And these were sober people doing it. Yeah, it's weird. I always say now there are no more bar fights. People just go to Google. They say, no, Maris had the record. No, Mantle had the record. Let's Google it. what do you know? It's

Jason Blitman: 1:02:58

Makes for very short conversations.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:03:00

Even guys who would just routinely throw down will now pause. To get the definitive answer before, and then they could just keep drinking.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:12

Okay, so this book is about your experience. In the context of writing and reading, you are known for writing words for other people.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:03:26

this is true.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:27

There's something that I heard you say on someone else's, in some other conversation, About how you take a Hocus Pocus script and you bet Midler Fyatt.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:03:38

We middlerized, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:39

What is Midlerite? what does that mean to you Can you give an example?

Bruce Vilanch: 1:03:42

means, fluffing up the dialogue so it's a bit, sharper and uses bigger words and, or in, in interesting configurations. On Hocus Pocus Winifred Sanderson speaks in a weird sort of Shakespearean kind of vow them those way that the original writers had a, don't think wrote in, they were two guys and they weren't writing in that vernacular. And so the, that that, and she is she's, a crazy witch, so she turns words around and does things like that. And so that's what the mid rising is in that thing. But, it's very delicate to go in and rewrite somebody who's actually written the script. It's just not like putting words in the mouth of somebody who's going to go out and give an award or do a speech or that kind of thing. It's a whole different thing because you're writing to a character, not to not to a personality. Although, the line between character and persona is frequently crossed.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:42

Depends on who we're talking about. At this point, you probably know her voice better than she does.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:04:49

Yes. But she always surprises me. She constantly surprises you. She's, she was a merit scholar and she's incredibly literate and she always jokes that if she didn't do this, she'd be a librarian, because that is her instinct. She really, if he asked her what she's reading, it's a. Piles of things. And a lot of design stuff. But fortunately she has many coffee tables. So she has floors of coffee tables. She has room for all those huge books.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:14

what I need more of. Coffee tables.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:05:17

If they're going to keep putting out the, Tash and all those gigantic books, and stuff like that. I have on my coffee table that never moves the large book of the big, of Big Penis. Which is a Tashin, and I have also the second printing, which had 3D glasses included.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:36

do you, are the, do those sit next to it On the coffee table? Yes.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:05:39

who really want to spend some time, you have

Jason Blitman: 1:05:42

You have to get the full experience.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:05:44

There's also a traveling version. The Little Book of Big Penis. The pocket size. The pocket size, exactly right. But that is one of my go to coffee table books. And my friend Frank Staccaro likes it. Drag. He had a huge coffee and disco, a huge coffee table book.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:59

You are the guest gay reader. Is there anything that you are reading that you need to get off your chest? Do you have to complain about anything? These teeny tiny things that we're holding space for.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:06:10

I live in LA. My pet peeve is the guy in the car in front of me. Whoever it is. It doesn't even a guy. the car in front of me is my pet peeve. It's like, move bitch! It's just Whatever they're doing is wrong, as far as I'm concerned.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:27

Why is that the case?

Bruce Vilanch: 1:06:29

because it's L. A. And because They're all not the excellent drivers that we are. You, me, and Dustin Hoffman and Rain Man. We are all excellent drivers. So What can I say? All you can do is sit there and kind of it doesn't become acid reflux.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:47

That is a great grievance.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:06:48

Texting has come in. That's the most amazing thing. And I know that there's like, don't text and drive. But generally, when you're sitting at a light and they don't move in front of you, you know that's because they are texting. And shouting, stop texting, start driving! I should have a robot voice that goes out of the car. Yes, that's what your horn should do. Exactly right. Instead of, ooh, ah, ooh, God. Should be, stop texting, start driving! Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Who do we need to write to? I, yes, the IGA people. Who are they? Where are they? They're probably the IGA people! Iga, Iowa or someplace that plant got shut down. It was, I realize about, that's that was, Elon closed it. Exactly. I know. I

Jason Blitman: 1:07:29

Thank God for people like you though, to keep. things light and joyous.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:07:33

You have to or you'll go crazy. I think, and fortunately I'm, I'm not I'm not a feral employee and I don't have to, deal with it at the moment that way. But

Jason Blitman: 1:07:44

Yeah. To bring us joy, we have. it seemed like a bad idea at the time. The worst TV shows in history, and other things. I wrote

Bruce Vilanch: 1:07:52

it. It really is, it winds up being a book about bad ideas and how they you try to make them good because they're paying you and it's a hopeless task or ideas that started out pretty good and then wound up being bad because of one thing or another. And it's nobody, nobody plans for something to be the worst show ever written. It just it happens, but it does start generally with the bad idea.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:15

And that's how you are here

Bruce Vilanch: 1:08:16

today. That's right, exactly. I had to talk about my filthy reading habits.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:21

and your three bathrooms.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:08:23

in three bathrooms. Three

Jason Blitman: 1:08:25

your giant penis bug. Bruce, thank you for being here.

Bruce Vilanch: 1:08:31

treat, It was fun. Such a pleasure. All right.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:34

Bruce, Charlotte, thank you so much. Everyone, you're rock stars. Go check out the show notes for more. Check out the link tree. Check out the Instagram. And I will see you later this week for the bonus episode with Claire Leslie Hall. Bye!