0:33

Hello and welcome to Gazes Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have Kristen Anette talking to me about her book. Stop Me if you've heard this one and the. Trans icon. Tori Peters, who made waves with her first book, detransition Baby, talks to me about her latest stag dance. Their bios are in the show notes. I just started a gaze reading Substack. There's already some exclusive content over there. there's the recording of my in-person conversation with Reuben Reyes Jr. Talking about his book. There is a Rio Grande in Heaven. There's a book review and a list of all the upcoming gaze reading guests through. April, there will be Author q and As, more reviews and other exciting content. So if you want to check out all of that exclusive content, make your way over to the Gaze Reading Substack. The link to that is in the show notes and also on our Instagram bio, whole bunch of books coming out today. A few that I wanna shout out. Passing Through a Prairie Country by Dennis e Staples, killer Potential by Hannah De Animal Instinct by Amy Sheen. Our beautiful boys by Samir Pandia, the Paris Express by Emma Donahue, and the expert of Subtle Revisions by Kirsten Manger Anderson. Samir and Emma Donahue will both be the guests on next week's gaze. Reading. Samir will talk to me about his book, our Beautiful Boys and Emma Donahue, who you know from writing the book room, is my guest gay reader and talks to me about what she is reading. So something that we have to talk about, is stuff going on with. What I will call Facebook, and the book Careless People, A Cautionary Tale of Power, greed, and Lost Idealism by Sarah Wynn Williams. If you have not been following along this journey, it's a memoir that she wrote about her time working for Facebook, and last week they took legal action against her because she violated a non-disparagement agreement and. In that it was ruled that she's not allowed to promote her book. So I can, so everyone go and make sure to check out Careless People by Sarah Win Williams. It's a horrifying thing that's going on right now, but we should support the books where we can. So go check that out. As always, if you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at Gays Reading on Instagram. We are also on Blue Sky. You could watch this conversation on YouTube. The links to all of those things you could find again in the show notes or in the Link Tree on Instagram, and if you like and subscribe to Gay's Reading wherever you get your podcast. You will be the first to know when a new episode drops. If you are new to GA's reading, then you do not know this yet, but I am partnering with Aardvark Book Club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the United States can join today and enter the code gaze reading and get their first book for only$4 plus free shipping. Whew. That is a lot of information today. So we've got. Kristen Anette. We've got Tory Peters. We have a new Substack. We have Careless people by Sarah Wynn Williams. We have the Avar Book Club deal.$4 for a new book. It's there's a whole lot, and I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you for being here and enjoy my conversation with Kristen Anette and Tory Peters.

Jason Blitman: 4:06

Oh wait, hold on, wait, um. oh, sorry, I um, my, so stupid. I

Kristen Arnett: 4:17

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:18

had a clown nose in my closet and I was like, oh, I should find it for this call. But I can't keep it on the whole time. All right, I want to dive in because there are so many things to talk about. Kristen, do you have an elevator pitch for your book yet? Stop me if you've heard this one.

Kristen Arnett: 4:34

Yeah, I I feel like I'm still refining it, I'm like lesbian, fuckboy birthday party clown in central Florida tries to make art while simultaneously chasing after women twice her age? Plus? And also about grief and dealing with loss. I don't know. I need to refine it a little bit, but it's Yeah, what it's like to make art in a place where people think your art is tacky maybe too. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 5:01

All of those things. Something that you did not mention in your elevator pitch, which is totally fine, but helps with the Florida vibe, is that she also works part time at an aquarium store.

Kristen Arnett: 5:11

she sure does. Aquarium Select 3. Which is important to know because there is no Aquarium Select original recipe. I

Jason Blitman: 5:24

three Thai restaurants in a row. Yum Yum, Yum Yum 2, and Yum Yum 3. And at some point, there was only like Yum Yum 3 open, and it eventually closed. But now all of them are gone, but at some point, you like, we were missing one and two. and it was amazing. The book is dedicated to anyone who's ever been called funny as an insult.

Kristen Arnett: 5:49

Yes, very, and I feel very deeply about dedicating that because I was like, those are my people.

Jason Blitman: 5:55

Yeah, I feel like we could talk about that for an entire hour. Do you remember when that was the first, when you were called funny as an insult for the first time?

Kristen Arnett: 6:04

Oh yeah, it definitely had to be probably my parents who did not ever think that anything I was doing was very funny let's be for real. I grew up in a very specific Southern Baptist evangelical household.

Jason Blitman: 6:17

Where did you grow up?

Kristen Arnett: 6:18

in Orlando I'm like, I'm third generation Central Floridian, but yeah, I think I was always thinking, and that was also a way too, where if you said something smart, quote unquote you'd be like, Oh, are you trying to be funny right now? That's not funny. And I, do think a lot of the time, I thought a lot of things were funny because things felt constantly absurd to me and then nobody else saw them as being absurd. It's just this is how we live, or this is how we move through the world, and this is how we act in this household, and a lot of the times things felt like, Insanely funny or so weird that it's like, how is this not funny?

Jason Blitman: 6:53

I remember getting called funny because I was different. And it wasn't because I was hilarious.

Kristen Arnett: 7:01

Yeah, it's because you're being weird. You're being like, not like everybody else. Yeah, that's a really good point. And this, I think, fits like, very nicely into that funny as an insult,

Jason Blitman: 7:10

No, exactly.

Kristen Arnett: 7:12

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:12

Another thing I feel like we could talk about for a whole hour is Publix cake?

Kristen Arnett: 7:18

Ooh, yum. Yeah I'm like, oh, that sounds delicious right

Jason Blitman: 7:21

know! Hahaha! Why is it so good? Why is shopping there actually a pleasure? Like why is it the best grocery store ever? I have never, ever been to a grocery store better than Publix in my life. Like I, if there's anything I miss about Florida, it is most certainly Publix.

Kristen Arnett: 7:38

Publix right. Or die'cause there's certain things too, like BOGOs at Publix are like unbeatable. That is you can get wine on the cheap in that situation. Like I used to go in there and be like, it's deal day. I gotta go in there and get this wine.'cause

Jason Blitman: 7:52

You thank them in your acknowledgements,

Kristen Arnett: 7:55

I sure

Jason Blitman: 7:56

for the Boca wine.

Kristen Arnett: 7:57

Because you go in there and they have 12 Pinot Grigio on sale, BOGO, like That's incredible. That's like such a value. And so then, and then you're stocked up. But I'm like, they just have like such good deals on things. Plus, yeah, the bakery,

Jason Blitman: 8:10

The bakery, the subs.

Kristen Arnett: 8:13

subs. So good. Everything in there is so delicious. And also, yeah I think a thing, too, is sometimes people come down and go to to Florida, or even to because Publix is spread up into the South now. As it should. But people are like, why are they so nice in here? And I'm like, because it's where shopping is a pleasure.

Jason Blitman: 8:31

they're nice, it's clean.

Kristen Arnett: 8:33

there, too. They always have Upward inside of Publix. They promote from within. That's always been a tenet of Publix, which was founded in Lakeland, Florida.

Jason Blitman: 8:43

You're a third generation central Floridian, in your acknowledgements you talk about being obsessed with Florida. I'm like really only leaning in, I think, because I'm I like, I grew up in Florida, I moved when I was 18, I lived in Chicago for many years, I lived in New York City for many years, now I'm in Southern California, and I'm so far removed from my Florida roots, and I like, don't call myself a Floridian, but there are things that just don't go away. So you say you are obsessed with Florida, can you tell me more?

Kristen Arnett: 9:16

Yes, happily. I always say that I'm like the unofficial brand ambassador for Florida, specifically Orlando. It's like, when you get off the plane, there I am being like, welcome! Let me show you around!

Jason Blitman: 9:28

Buy a copy of my book!

Kristen Arnett: 9:30

Yeah, exactly. I've just got a little stand holding them up. But I, there's a lot of things. I always like to start off by being like, let's be for real. There's a lot of things that are bad here, too. I am not like, completely blind to the fact that we have a ton of bad shit here. Most of it is perpetrated by the fact that we have a shitty government here in Florida. Shitty people in charge government wise. But I would also say we have a shitty government. In the United States. So, There's like, there's also that. But but we have so many great things here specifically. I always feel that way about Central Florida because we have we're a space where people have an idea about what we are. Right? So like you say Orlando to somebody and they immediately have Something in their brain that you didn't put there that they, it's informed by like social media or by like popular culture or just being alive in the world. And it's and that thing is Mickey Mouse or like a theme park or something having to do with that. And that's a big part of Central Florida. Like we have a booming like tourism and hospitality industry. But it also means we have a shit ton of gay people here because I say this all the time. It's who do they think is doing theater? Dance, performance any of these vocals these things are all gay people. This is all gay people doing performance. You have a lot of people who work here, and also people who are queer and trans working in a hospitality. Lots of people who are used to putting a show on in many different kinds of capacities. Putting on a face for things, right? Like code switching and behaving certain ways. That's plenty of queer people in hospitality. There's a lot of things you can say about Florida, it is not boring. Um, There's always something going on,

Jason Blitman: 11:11

I think because of the political climate right now, and the random news story about the crazy thing Florida Man has done. I, there is very much a connotation with Florida that I make a joke about not liking telling people that I grew up there. However, I didn't grow up in Podunk nowhere. I grew a suburb of Fort Lauderdale. It made me who I am because there's theater, because there are museums, because there's art, because there's culture, because there are gay people. I spent my weekends going to Wilton Manners, and I, Had season tickets to the performing arts center because I was able to, I did. I performed locally, and so I think because of that. It really did shape me in a positive way. So I'm, I appreciate the the positive Florida vibes going on.

Kristen Arnett: 11:58

Yes, and I'm always willing to be like, I love having people come and doing let me show you around, because I think any place you go and you're not a local and you don't know the place you go there and be like, you can go to New York City. city and just have a real tourist time, and people will be like, what did you do? Oh my God. What a weird time you had there. But then you go and visit somebody who like is from there and they like, or Liz lived there a long time. And you're like, yeah, let me take you to do the things that actually people who live here do. So I think the same is for Orlando. And so I say that all the time. So when people come, my wife and I got married last February and we had a huge wedding. We called it our like gay Florida wedding. And we had like, Everybody, like 90 percent of people who came were from out of town. So we're like, we, my wife put together like a thing on our website where it's here's where to eat, here's some bars, here's places to go, here's stuff to do.

Jason Blitman: 12:45

The tourism bureau or whatever needs to be paying you.

Kristen Arnett: 12:50

ah,

Jason Blitman: 12:50

such a good ambassador

Kristen Arnett: 12:52

thank you. They should link me on the site. I

Jason Blitman: 12:54

Yes, they should. At least put this podcast episode there. No, it says gay in the

Kristen Arnett: 13:00

Yeah. I was like, sorry, that's not going up. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 13:02

Thinking about Florida, and circling back to what I was saying about the vibe of the book, stop me if you've heard this one, Florida does have Weeki Wachee Springs that is known for its A, beautiful natural springs but also its live quote unquote mermaid shows. It's also known for Alligator Alley, the stretch of highway from the east side to the west side of Florida that doesn't have any gas stations and you pass the time driving this huge stretch by finding alligators on the side of the road.

Kristen Arnett: 13:35

there are a lot of them

Jason Blitman: 13:36

And there are a lot of them, right? And so those are elements from my youth that I remember. And those things are like, weird. And there is a, I don't really know how else to describe this, other than a sort of sepia toned ness about them. There's like a vibe, and that is that's the vibe of the book. You like, hear the squeaking swing in the wind next door.

Kristen Arnett: 13:59

Yeah, I mean

Jason Blitman: 14:00

you know what I mean?

Kristen Arnett: 14:01

yes. I really wanted it to feel like, this to me is very meaningful because I wrote this book for I put in even like Easter eggs for people who are like from Florida inside of it. Because I was like, I'm writing this. for, I'm my first reader, right? So anything I write is for me first, but I was like, I really want this to be like such a specifically Central Florida kind of book where like when people read it, they, if they're from here, they get that vibe and they're going to be like, yeah, that's and if it's not their experience entirely, they're going to be like at least like parts that touch where they're like, oh, this, I, yes, I know immediately what you're talking about, or I feel that feeling.

Jason Blitman: 14:38

Yes. It's so funny and it's almost hard for me to talk about the book because it strangely feels so close to me too. Literally when I was a kid, I was a birthday party magician. Like. I was with my friend painting faces at my sister's birthday party, like my mother plays Bunko, the clown's name is Bunko, I had a fat tailed gecko when I was a kid that I bought from the equivalent of Cherry's store, right? So I'm like, wait, I don't even know like how to articulate other pieces of this book because I just I felt like I could live in it. Anyway. There's so many things to talk about. You talk about you're your first reader. I found the book so funny. The book is about a clown. Where does your humor come from?

Kristen Arnett: 15:30

Yeah. Some of that I say is I think one of the ways I coped with being gay and closeted as a young person was like a lot of self deprecating humor. So it was like a lot of my early trying to like, get through a situation was trying to turn it into something funny for myself because things felt so deeply painful and hard. So it was like easier for me to be like, if I turn this into some kind of joke, I'll be able to deal with whatever horrible situation this is right now. So I think some of it stemmed from that. I also like growing up, my dad was actually really funny. Like he was a guy. Like Mike Arnett, he was like the guy that everybody, even though we were at the church all the time, they're like, oh, that guy, Mike, he's so funny. He's a blast. He was the guy that everybody liked when he'd come in the room. They'd be like, oh, we love this guy. I love this guy's here. And I'm like, I, growing up, I always remember being like, I want to be like, I want to be like that. I want to be like the funny guy, the guy that everybody's yeah, he's here now. The party can start like feeling. And I think I consciously a little bit, but maybe subconsciously have modeled myself after my own father where I'm like I really want to be like this kind of person where it's Funny but also like nice I did a lot of self deprecating humor coming out But I think once I was out and I was like, okay, this is who I am And all the stuff is going on in my life. I'm like, I want to be like funny, but in a way that's Kind or has like empathy to other people and then also just Really wanting attention all the time So I was like nothing gets more attention than being the loudest like goofiest person in the room And I think that's like being a clown at

Jason Blitman: 17:03

It's interesting that you talk about also wanting to channel kindness because I think it's not uncommon for, jokes to be I don't want to use the term cruel, but they often come from a place of pain. You were talking about dealing with coming out, right? Which is some element of trauma and I, you think about things like roasts, or A drag queen reading, or whatever, which like, comes, which is funny and while might be quote unquote mean, they're, because things are true. It makes it even funnier, so I appreciate your wanting to also be kind.

Kristen Arnett: 17:42

Yeah. I think that's a thing, too, that makes there's so many different kinds of humor and To be funny that it's, that's another thing that makes it not boring. There's, like, how many different ways is there to tell a joke? I think a million different ways to tell a joke, which is maybe why I gravitate towards trying to think of things as funny because it feels constant. Improv or constant bit or trying to something and like glean out every like last little morsel of joy out of it There's like just so many Ways to be funny, I think This is my third novel and it's the most fun I've ever had writing something. It was like, a completely joyful experience, which not every book has felt that way.

Jason Blitman: 18:19

Why do you think that was true for this?

Kristen Arnett: 18:21

I think so much of it was like the character who I'm writing about is like even when she's like down on things or hard on herself She's a real glass half full kind of person like she's There's things I want and I'm gonna get them like no matter what and no matter like my Circumstances or how dire they are there always be some kind of way for me to figure out how I can maybe make it happen I also think too the way that the book is set up, I wanted it to feel shape wise, maybe each chapter is its kind of own joke or bit, and then the whole thing's kind of connected into think of it as a one hour comedy showcase or something, where it's these things, but they're all connected to tell a narrative, and that was just deeply fun. I was allowed to be, like, really playful with it too because I, tried stuff out where there's some chapters where I'm like, okay she's going to go through the whole day and be like, I'm going to label things in my own head as funny or not funny. And then that's became like the bit inside of it. And I'm like, this is such a fun way to write right now. And it allows me to play with a lot of things. So I think that there was that. It allowed me to be like very Playful in this like very optimistic kind of way and I wouldn't say necessarily my past few books have been like Optimistic or playful. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:32

interesting that you keep using that word because in the book you talk about clowning, relying on optimism.

Kristen Arnett: 19:39

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:39

That absurd depends on the like, unlimited possibility.

Kristen Arnett: 19:46

Yeah Yeah

Jason Blitman: 19:47

and I like to think that I'm a relatively optimistic person, but it was interesting for me to think about examples that rely on optimism. And it's funny cause on one hand I'm an optimistic person. I'm also like a glass half full person which I guess they're both versions of the same thing, but I can put labels on things because I'm making them up in my head. I'm like, Oh being a teacher. relies on optimism because the teacher, if the teacher thinks the kid is like never going to do their homework or is not going to retain any information, then like, why would they come to work at me every day?

Kristen Arnett: 20:26

Yeah. I mean I think it's one of those things where it's yeah, this is like a propelled through the world in this kind of way where it's like she has forward momentum in her life regardless of what's going on because if you aren't Doing that then what happens like you just stop trying and you like even if you don't physically die your spirit Has like some kind of death like I think too because this is so much a book about like making art Regardless of what anybody else thinks about it like I was like, you know I'm from Orlando and people love to tell you about how everything here is so tacky and bad and how Because you're from here and nothing you make is like worthwhile or interesting or good. It's not real art. So I'm like, okay. What if it's like literally a clown and people have a lot of opinions about clowns. But this is a character who's like this is an art to her and it's very important and I was like What does that mean to have a passion? For, and I was like writing is like that for me where it's Like I'm so passionate about it and this is like something and it's if you don't have that kind of creative Forward momentum as a creative person. I think it kills you or it can be something that's like Constants you if you like give up a dream So I was like for her I was like it's like crucial to like her making art because if she's not able to be like I'm gonna keep doing this or I'm gonna keep trying and I think her life would stop like it would be like over Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 21:50

Any creative needs to be an optimist, even if they don't think they're an optimist. You have to believe that someone will either enjoy or consume whatever you're creating.

Kristen Arnett: 22:01

Yeah, There has to be some kind of, yeah, what are you doing? So it's I think you can, cause I, we all know there's definitely like misanthropes and people who are like super pessimists that make art, but there has to be some kind of capacity that

Jason Blitman: 22:14

Like some glimmer of optimism within them. Otherwise who is it for? Although I get, I was in an interesting conversation with an author who didn't necessarily believe that An audience where a reader completes the circle of the art.

Kristen Arnett: 22:29

Okay. Yeah. I guess if you're like in the space where you're like, as long as I'm making something for myself, but that's still its own like optimistic bench, Right. You're like, you have to want to make it for you. So

Jason Blitman: 22:40

I know, it's very, it's complicated, but, As a theatre person, doing this podcast I have to be optimistic that things are gonna get seen. Are you? Okay, obviously as a writer, you have to be an optimistic person, we've just decided this. Are you? In your real life, are you as well?

Kristen Arnett: 22:57

I think so, yes. And it's something too where I feel like, maybe sometimes it's even if you, like myself, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing or things feel really hard, I'm almost like a fake it till I make it kind of person where I'm like, maybe I feel like this now because it hurts me more to not. feel like that or try when I let myself get into a space like that. Because we all do, even people who are optimistic, especially like the fucking state of the world right now. Just, it's really easy to get yourself to a space where things are wretched and it will be like this forever until we're dead. And I, can't bear going through day after day thinking solely in that kind of way. So I And I truly, too, am a person who, maybe this is like part of like me being like a queer person, but I like, feel like I'm such a community based person and I care a lot about people and I can see that people are trying and that people care and that people want, want things and are hopeful and help each other and there's a lot of bad shit, but I can't move through the world in any kind of way that's like meaningful or helpful if I'm all the time like shit's terrible, like that's not like a helpful way for me to like It's not active, maybe, too. It's not helpful in an active way. And also I just truly I want to be happy. I I want to be happy.

Jason Blitman: 24:23

Cause there's this element of like manifesting it.

Kristen Arnett: 24:26

Yeah, I mean, and sometimes when I tell myself I'm happy, I can be, I'm at the very least because there's things like simple pleasures in my life that bring me an intense amount of joy. I'm obsessed with my wife. I get to be with her every day and I love that's my favorite thing in the world. I love being in my backyard and drinking a beer, like I love like all my friends, I like getting off a stupid joke on the internet. These are all things that bring me like, pleasure. Like sitting down to write and getting one really good, like a damn good like paragraph or a sentence off. I'm like, yes, that's so satisfying. Like these things all are like, They're not the same level of like good, but I don't need them to be. Like I can get like jewelry out of any number of these things.

Jason Blitman: 25:05

Yeah, little microjoys and they can all add up to something.

Kristen Arnett: 25:09

Yes. And that helps whenever I'm feeling like, Oh, this is the worst shit of all time. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 25:14

Yeah. You think of that one little microjoy, sure. There is this moment in the book where Cherry is told or realized or I don't remember the exact scenario but the idea that not everyone is going to be her audience.

Kristen Arnett: 25:31

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 25:32

And when she realizes that, things become a little freer? Was there, did you have a moment like that in your life? Was there something in particular that sort of like unlocked for you?

Kristen Arnett: 25:44

yeah, I think, that's a huge part of, for myself, of making art, which is, and also dealing with rejection, I think, because you have to be, like, an optimist in all of these creative professions where you're told no constantly, right? And that's any kind of creative profession, you're told way more often no than you are told yes. Or even a maybe. It's a hundred no's and then one little maybe, and you're like looking for that maybe. But some of that was like I think like moving to the world and being like, not everybody, Is going to get what I'm trying to do, not everybody is going to be like my reader And that's fine because I, like there's some people's work that's not mine, like I don't want to read that. But it doesn't mean it's not good, or it doesn't mean that it's not like doing something for somebody else. I really am a Very much the mentality that like art can be like so many different kinds of things and I don't like to be like I hate being like if it's not capital L literature it's not like real art or if it's not this kind of specific thing because I think that's what makes art so fun and freeing is that there's many different kinds of ways to make something there's many different kinds of ways to get that work out there and it. But yeah, it's like not everybody's gonna like your work all the time. But for me, I was like that doesn't define who I am. I'm not writing for that person.

Jason Blitman: 27:02

Sure.

Kristen Arnett: 27:03

For that person who's not for me.

Jason Blitman: 27:05

there's a great song in the musical called Title of Show where the gist is, there's, the lyric is, they'd rather be nine people's favorite thing than a hundred people's ninth favorite thing. And I think that's a really fun way of thinking about that.

Kristen Arnett: 27:21

I think that's such a that's how I feel so like that speaks to me directly because I'd rather Somebody like be like, oh, I really I felt something in the way that you wrote that and that means so much to me Because writing's always worth time to me, no matter what, even if nobody sees it. But it is like something where it's like when somebody tells you like, Wow, I saw this or this made me feel a kind of way and I felt really seen, or I felt like an experience I had was like, put down in this kind of way that I hadn't seen before. That's something that's so deeply meaningful and you only get from like making art that you that is I don't know, that's like such a positive kind of thing.

Jason Blitman: 28:00

Yeah. And also, going a little further with that beyond being creative I'm curious if there's anything that once you realized in life in general that was freeing. I'll give you an example of one recently for me because this just came up with a friend the other day, where in so many of these conversations and talking to. other people in my life. Realizing that adulthood is a myth really changed my life and really set me free because I think we're constantly like, oh when we become or like when we, when this thing happens in our life, it's oh wait, no, like I'm a grown up now, I might not feel like it, but that's the truth, and, I have my bills to pay and all these things, but I always feel like I'm not quite done cooking? But oh, that's just true. That's the reality. Everyone feels that way. And once I realized that I think I became a little freer.

Kristen Arnett: 29:04

That's a really good one. I truly, because it is one of these things where you feel like, just inherently feel like, you're like I should know this by now because of X, Y, Z. And the reality is No one knows.

Jason Blitman: 29:15

No one

Kristen Arnett: 29:16

Nobody knows anything. And if they I feel like that's when I could tell someone is a liar. If they say that they do. I'm like, oh, you are a liar. And maybe they're just lying to themselves, but

Jason Blitman: 29:26

I know, whatever they need to wake up in the morning.

Kristen Arnett: 29:28

they need to get through it. I think one of those for me, and it's honestly, sometimes they work for me where I have to like consistently remind myself of them, and like refresh. And one of those is that no one's gonna care about a fuck up I do more than I care about it. I am

Jason Blitman: 29:42

that's so good.

Kristen Arnett: 29:44

I'm the person that really cares, and nobody else really is going to be, I mean don't get me wrong, it's possible somebody might be aggravated or pissed off or something happens, but nobody is going to care. As much as I care. I've turned it into its own thing in my own head. So I have to be, like, repeatedly to myself this is the Kristen Arnett show in your own mind. And you've put the spotlight on yourself, and the reality

Jason Blitman: 30:08

the star.

Kristen Arnett: 30:10

Yeah, it's like I've got my own music playing in the background, like, theme song. But it's no, no one cares. It's me. I have turned it into something it's not. But that's something that I repeatedly have to Remind myself about.

Jason Blitman: 30:23

So it's interesting that's what you bring up, which is a great point. In the book, Cherry talks about how sometimes it's hard to take off the clown.

Kristen Arnett: 30:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:34

I think you said this earlier, you alluded to this earlier, but I'm going to come right out and say it. You could take the word clown out of the book and replace it with writer, and I think it could still work. Do you feel that as a writer? Do you feel like it's hard to turn the writer off?

Kristen Arnett: 30:49

To be alive in the world Right? now means also to be Be an online presence and to feel like you're you know an entity like a kind of like person Like the face of the way that like the literary community used to work like I don't know even 40 years ago is Not like the way things are now people have and the way publishers want things to be where it's like you are like a brand like you're like this is like the Kristin Arnett right and I do spend a lot of time on social media And on the internet and some of that stuff is just because I genuinely like Being on online TM. I like, I was like, ah, like where else do I get to make my dumb ass jokes and like maybe they land and maybe they don't. But,

Jason Blitman: 31:32

Where else do you have an audience at your fingertips? For better or for worse?

Kristen Arnett: 31:37

yeah, it means that like people have An idea about who I am, and like, how I move through the world, and like, how I would behave. And so there is like this kind of weird way, and I've worked really hard to be like, What is what you get, I am like pretty much this person. But then there's this idea of Kristen Arnett, the writer. Versus what it's actually to like, sit at home and try and make work. And have it just be like, garbage y, or not feeling it, or being Like, who's gonna care about this? This is so dumb. Or just being like, I'm not or being in a fucking bad mood, or just being like, I don't know we move through the world as human beings, which means sometimes we're just acting like little pieces of shit. And I'm just like, with love,

Jason Blitman: 32:17

Cause we're people, and we're animals, and like sometimes we wake up on the wrong side of the bed and that's okay.

Kristen Arnett: 32:22

yeah, or maybe cuts me off in traffic, and it was my fault, and I give them the finger, like these things all exist in the same, many things can be true at once, but I'm like, I don't know, sometimes it is like a little bit like that, and I think especially in terms of Cherry in that moment being like, It's hard to like, because it's also easier to be that thing. It's easier to be like I'm Kristen the brand. It's probably easier for Cherry to be like, I'm this clown, right? I don't have to deal with my bad feelings about my dead brother. I don't have to deal with the fact that I can't like, get into a relationship that I want. I don't have to deal with the fact that my career is going nowhere. I can be this clown, and it covers a multitude of sins, and I don't have to deal with. The baggage that's hanging around in the background. And so I think that there's ways that many, like we all go through, right? Like we put on a false face and a mask and it's easier to deal with that than it is to deal with the actual real shit that's happening in our

Jason Blitman: 33:18

Yeah. Speaking of the like, concept of persona, of masks, of the brand it so deeply relates to queerness. The idea of donning a persona in the same way, that you have the persona of the brand. What has that experience been like for you?

Kristen Arnett: 33:38

Yeah. I mean, I think some of it too has been, like, growing up and then also coming out and being The person that I am, who I feel like, I also feel like I'm constantly changing, and that's just, that makes me glad. I think that's a good thing, right? If I wasn't changing and growing, or becoming something new, I think that that's probably when I'll be dead. But, it's that would be like, And I'm like, I want to be like good for change, but so much of that is like being a queer person in Florida for especially growing up, it's like I do things all the time. For a long time, I wore like very femme clothes all the time. I worked in like libraries and I was like in heels every single day. I had a million dresses. I put on a ton of makeup. I like, I don't know. There was like things about that then like relating to like my queerness, but also gender like I'm like I don't know how I feel about You know as I've gotten older. I'm like I you know, I don't do those things anymore Does it mean I can't in the future like no, but I'm like who I feel like I am right now it's like somebody who like I wear the same fucking boots every single day and it's like it'll be a miracle if I wash my hair, but it is like

Jason Blitman: 34:45

Unless you're getting complaints, it doesn't matter.

Kristen Arnett: 34:48

Exactly. And so I'm just like, I don't know. But then some of the things too, it's but do, have I still been in situations where if I feel like I'm in a situation where need to mask that, does my voice modulate? Does it go up? Do I start speaking in a higher pitch? Do I start sounding more feminine? Does my like cadence change? Like how I hold my body? Does that change? There's ways in which like, I don't even know I'm doing it. If I get if I'm on the phone with somebody where it's like the bank or something like that yeah, maybe my tone. Switches like maybe I said and it's something that I think 90 percent of the time I don't even know I'm doing it until I can if somebody else is in the room with me and they catch it happening And then I'm like, oh I'm doing like This weird code switching for situations where I need to be less gay I need to seem more feminine there was, like, a time a few years ago where I got pulled over for something and I could feel my entire body shift in how I talked to that police officer. I have never spoken in a higher pitch in my life, I feel and I was, like, I had to I had a weird time afterwards where I was trying to examine, like, why I, Made those like choices and I was like because I felt like I was like in danger or scared Like I immediately turned myself into somebody where I could handle that and I was like that's like I don't know, and there's like ways in which like, yeah, and if I go into queer spaces, yeah, I butch up, I'm like, oh great, I can be like, my tone goes way down, my body language changes I feel like I can wear different clothes in different spaces, like like there's, I have this like dyke shirt, like I'm not wearing a dyke shirt to the publics across the street probably, but am I wearing it to southern to like lesbian burlesque. Yes I'm probably wearing my dyke shirt there, but if I have to get in a car to go there, am I putting something Like there's ways which like queerness requires of us, capacity, especially being in places where maybe that can be dangerous or you can't know what might happen.

Jason Blitman: 36:42

You said something about raising the pitch of your voice and I'm completely misquoting you, but some version of become a person who could, handle the situation. And I think there's also the idea of becoming a person that you think the other person wants you to be,

Kristen Arnett: 37:00

Yes. Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 37:01

right? You become a safe space for that person, even though it means completely shedding who you are for yourself.

Kristen Arnett: 37:10

Yes, and I wanted that, some of that stuff to be there for Cherry too, like places where she's doing the clown and she's doing who she is in like her regular day to day, but most of the time it's trying to be the clown or thinking about the clown, but like situations where maybe she feels like she's scared or something might happen, like ways in which she would navigate that, or

Jason Blitman: 37:29

Mhm.

Kristen Arnett: 37:31

I have an idea that someone might be violent with me, like what's a way I can like navigate the jokes here to make sure that it. That doesn't happen, like there won't be some kind of I need to be a clown they can handle, Right. Like that kind of thing,

Jason Blitman: 37:43

When I was in high school in Florida, one of my best friends was gay and came to me one day and was just crying because he was so jealous that I didn't need to quote unquote perform gay. He felt he came to school wearing rainbows he did he became Jack and Will and Grace, even though I don't think he actually felt that way. He needed to present as a sort of safe stereotype so that it could just be this persona and was so jealous that I just got to be myself. And I. It was, I like deeply remember this conversation with him where I just was encouraging him to be honest with himself as much as possible and just be true to himself. But you're right, like it's, it goes in every direction of what our safety feels like.

Kristen Arnett: 38:42

yeah. That's an exhausting thing too, right? Like it's like a heavy weight to bear to have this persona you feel like you need to do all the time in order to like, just move through the world. That's

Jason Blitman: 38:52

Yeah, I mean you talk about the steeliness of clowning and compare it to coming out Can you talk about that a little bit? Right?

Kristen Arnett: 39:06

Haha, because it's like always every year is National Coming Out Day, and I'm like, oh my god, again! But then it's but it's also too, every time you go into a new situation and meet somebody new, it's Coming Out Day, right? It's you meet new friends, you meet new co workers, you like, meet your partner's friend, you meet I don't meet like literally anybody and it's okay, guess what? It's coming out day again. We're going to be coming out. But you also don't know all the time how people will take that information And so it's like I was people have strong opinions about clowns and like people have very like real fears about clowns like my publisher even was like we talked about like the cover and we wanted it to look like or like Maybe what? needed to happen and what like maybe couldn't happen because people are particular and like seeing something can set people off. It was like

Jason Blitman: 39:52

No, the cover is so great.

Kristen Arnett: 39:54

good, right? I really love it. They did a great job. But it's like a way where it's like how will this person react if I tell them I'm a clown, and there's a difference between telling that to like. A brand new acquaintance, a potential romantic partner a co worker, like these things are all, or a parent, like I, these things span the gamut and it's like, what does it mean to say you're this thing that you don't, you really couldn't know how somebody is going to react to it. And I was like, Oh, this is like coming out.

Jason Blitman: 40:23

yeah, absolutely. And it's so interesting too because it then makes you, the person sharing that information, sort of not question, but really face your own comfort level of that thing that does bring you passion or joy or whatever. And that is really upsetting.

Kristen Arnett: 40:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:46

It's upsetting that you need to brace yourself in order to share a piece of yourself with somebody, regardless of what that thing is, because of shame or embarrassment or, but we live in a world that's filled with shame and embarrassment, blah, blah, blah.

Kristen Arnett: 40:58

be like, being ready to like, how am I going to defend whatever this is? Like, how am I going to be like, or or on some of that, maybe the opposite side of that spectrum, how am I going to mitigate it so I can play it off in a kind of way where it's not so serious? If somebody's I hate this, it's disgusting to me, how can I like, cater to whatever is going on with it? There's just I don't know, it's hard to be alive in the world. And it's hard to

Jason Blitman: 41:22

100%.

Kristen Arnett: 41:23

Every day can be exhausting, I think, like there's like ways in which like things are heavy and Require so much attention and time and it's just to be a person and to be moving through the world. So it's and for her I was like even to be a clown Even clowns have it tough.

Jason Blitman: 41:39

Yeah. Some people's names don't match their personalities. What do you think about Kristen?

Kristen Arnett: 41:48

I've never really felt like a Kristen. It's one of those things too where it's like I mean It's not that I don't feel like a Kristen and I think my name's fine but I also I think other people are more Kristen than I'm Kristen. I see a Kristen like an actress. I think Kristen Bell is much more of a Kristen than I am, I think like, Kristen Cavallari from the OC fame or whatever she was on Laguna Beach. She's way more of a Kristen than I am, I think. But there's ways too where it's I also don't feel like I'm versions of that name. So which is some of it's too is I've started just being a little more playful. I started doing like dad internet persona. So I was like, I like dad. I think that's fun. I also my wife, like when we were dating, started calling me crimbo, which is like himbo, but Kristen.

Jason Blitman: 42:36

And also it could be a clown name.

Kristen Arnett: 42:38

Yeah, exactly. And that I I would never. Put it on so I would like I would not call myself that to people but I'm like, I like that I'm, like that's fair,

Jason Blitman: 42:45

Karimbo! Oh my god, I'm obsessed. Okay, let's, not that, because that's cheating, but do you have a clown name? What would your clown name

Kristen Arnett: 42:56

Oh god, I think that's the thing about clown names is you like literally Get to be so creative like you could super choose anything like maybe Really? I could say Dolly. Yeah, I know. Something fun.

Jason Blitman: 43:11

Kristen, you wrote a clown book. How do you not have a clown name at the ready?

Kristen Arnett: 43:16

That's, you're asking the hard questions cause I'm like, shit, somebody asked me this. Oh my god. I don't know Winky? I feel like I need to think about this more. These are not names I like. I don't

Jason Blitman: 43:27

No. Alright.

Kristen Arnett: 43:28

But, yeah, maybe Crimbo at this point. Honestly, I feel like I could pull that one

Jason Blitman: 43:32

I am obsessed with Crimbo. Daddy Crimbo. That's your clown name.

Kristen Arnett: 43:39

Yeah, she said that to me, and I was like, yeah, actually crimbo, sure.

Jason Blitman: 43:45

Amazing. I was having lots of existential crises, I was having a lot of PTSD as a creative from Florida, I wanted to throw the book across the room many times, but in a good way, But I think a big question that the book asks that, probably cost me a couple hours of sleep is, what do you do when the thing you love doesn't love you back?

Kristen Arnett: 44:09

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, and that's something I think that is a question that happens to all of us, because I think it doesn't matter how much we want things sometimes, just because we want them doesn't mean they're for us. Or like that we'll get to have them, or that we'll get to have them in the way that we want them. And that's a, that's something actually that I've had to like really reconcile with in terms of like my writing career. Where there's right, like saying like some people aren't my audience or whatever. But there's also just like certain things where it's it's not me like saying, like belittling myself or giving myself a hard time. But there's just not. Things, there are certain things that aren't for me. Like those things are not gonna be for me and that's not gonna be what happens for me with my art. That's not like a way in which like, that thing will love me. And I'm like, that is like an okay thing. That's it doesn't mean that I'm not on the right path. It means I have to recognize that not 100 percent of the things are for me, like in what I'm making. And, but that can be really difficult. I think that's like a very hard thing where it's I don't know, there's like in publishing there's always like a million lists that everybody wants to be on and there's not that many spaces. There's a million awards and not everybody gets them. There's like grants and like residencies, there's book deals, there's people you want to work with. There's like just all these things and like a lot of the time those things just aren't for me. Those aren't, that's not mine. But it's I think that's like for every kind of creative thing, right?

Jason Blitman: 45:39

Oh, 100%. Hence the wanting to throw the book across the room.

Kristen Arnett: 45:42

Yeah. That's just a hard thing. It's a hard thing to hold

Jason Blitman: 45:46

Yes. That's what I mean.

Kristen Arnett: 45:47

yeah, it's hard to

Jason Blitman: 45:48

But also creating the stuff. Yes.

Kristen Arnett: 45:50

And so some of it is but cause some things are for me. And so then I'm like, some of those things are for me out there and they're waiting for me and I just, I will get them and I will get there. But that's That's the way to maybe, but it's always still so hard. I think that's just a hard thing.

Jason Blitman: 46:06

100%. And on one hand, It's not for the audience, it's for you, and on the other hand, it's for the, it's for the thing that does love you back. Whatever that thing is, yeah.

Kristen Arnett: 46:18

That's not everything though, which can be hard. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:21

Exactly. And, it's back to the whole some people are, you're not for everybody. I know I'm not everybody's flavor. And it's a, it's an interesting thing to learn just as a person. You're not going to be liked by everybody.

Kristen Arnett: 46:35

I find that hard to believe though. You're very likable. So.

Jason Blitman: 46:38

That's very kind of you! You know, like, Some people don't, there, I mean, there is an alotness about me that not everybody likes. And that's totally fair. I am not everybody's brand. Um. But I try to be my most authentic brand all the time. Uh, Okay, I'm not gonna put you on the spot, because that would be so unkind. I did not know there were one, two, three versions of Home on the Range.

Kristen Arnett: 47:07

Oh, I

Jason Blitman: 47:11

ask you, but do you know the lyrics to the 1910 version? Uh

Kristen Arnett: 47:22

It. Cause I was like, I was like, I want her to be singing a song that's like authentically with her, cause she's bunko, a clown who's afraid of horses. And so I was like, I need her to really know a song. And I'm like, what's the song? I'm like, Oh, home on the range. So I started writing this chapter and then I'm like. Like, how long is Home on the Range? Is this like a short song? And so I got into this Wikipedia rabbit hole of looking up all the versions, and then it became something where I'm like, I guess all this information is going in the book. Because I was like, this is actually a really long song? Or I'm like, kids would not sit still. I'm like, or would they? And she does a really great job with this. And so I was like, Oh, but yeah, it was one of those things where I sat down and researched it. Cause I'm like she's got to sing a song. And I'm like, shit, there's a lot going

Jason Blitman: 48:08

Oh my god, that is so funny. I know, I didn't know there were three versions, and then specifically in the book you talk about, you mention the 1910 version and I'm not going to lie. Can I read you my favorite verse?

Kristen Arnett: 48:21

Yes, please do.

Jason Blitman: 48:22

Okay. How often at night, when the heavens are bright, with the light from the glittering stars, have I stood here amazed, and asked as I gazed, if their glory exceeds that of ours.

Kristen Arnett: 48:35

Oh wow. That's gorgeous. That's beautiful writing

Jason Blitman: 48:38

I was like, who knew that Home on the Range had such a good verse? Somewhere tucked in there.

Kristen Arnett: 48:43

this is what I'm saying. I was

Jason Blitman: 48:44

This is the gift of the world.

Kristen Arnett: 48:45

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 48:47

know. Oh my god, so funny. Kristen Arnett, Stop Me If You've Heard This One, it is out now. Everyone go get your copy of Stop Me If You've Heard This One by Kristen Arnett.

Kristen Arnett: 48:59

Yay. Thank you. I hope people like it. I hope if you get like one laugh from it, then I'll feel like I did my job.

Jason Blitman: 49:05

I laughed so many times, so That's it. You got it. Oh my god, it's so fun. Thank you for being here on Gay's Reading today.

Kristen Arnett: 49:17

thank you for having me. I had a lot of fun.

Jason Blitman: 49:20

I Am over the moon to have you as my guest gay reader today.

Torrey Peters: 49:23

I'm thrilled to be here.

Jason Blitman: 49:24

Here on Gays Reading, the one and only. are infamous for your fabulous first, I say first novel in quotation marks, to your transition baby, because as you make very clear, In your little note at the beginning of Stag Dance that you were working on Stag Dance for even longer

Torrey Peters: 49:43

I don't expect everybody to know all the ins and outs of Yeah, but at this point I worked at, I worked retail at the H& M and therefore you must we'll call it a debut. It's great.

Jason Blitman: 49:54

Did you work retail at H& M?

Torrey Peters: 49:56

No, I just made that up. I don't know why that's what came in my head, but I was looking for some, obscure thing that I may have done,

Jason Blitman: 50:03

Of all the places,

Torrey Peters: 50:04

I'll tell you why I thought of that is that I've been looking for like a suit for this tour, you know how writers, some writers have just they wear a suit to everything,

Jason Blitman: 50:14

it's like their costume.

Torrey Peters: 50:15

Like Fran Lebowitz or Tom Wolfe, right? The thing that I discovered last time I went on tour was that if I wore a new outfit like a good I was like, I'm debuting an outfit. I want to look good People would like inevitably take a terrible picture of me Post it and because it wasn't a new outfit other people would pick up on it Whereas if I wore the same outfit that is in my press shot, which is like a flower dress, people use my press shot. And so having a, like a signature outfit that, that is actually, it's not about looking good. It's about thwarting the impulse to post a terrible

Jason Blitman: 50:56

Yes, it's consistent.

Torrey Peters: 50:58

Yeah, so I'm, I've been, I want a black suit partially because they don't show up in photos, partially because they're like a little bit like of a nothing. You can look cool and look good, but they're a little bit nothing. And then if somebody takes a terrible photo of me, they'll be like, You know what? Let's just go with the official press shot. Yeah. So that's, so anyway, the point of this is I stopped by H& M to look at work shirts like two days ago. It was in my head.

Jason Blitman: 51:24

To no success.

Torrey Peters: 51:26

It's in us. I did not like the H& M. Wow. Neither works there nor purchased from H& M.

Jason Blitman: 51:33

Nor do they sponsor this podcast, and yet they're getting a lot of airtime.

Torrey Peters: 51:36

lot of airtime. But you know what? There's this, I would definitely say it's negative. I think in the end it was negative. Negative attention

Jason Blitman: 51:42

Yeah,

Torrey Peters: 51:42

that H& M, you Swedes.

Jason Blitman: 51:44

I know their clothes don't fit me properly. It's a pain.

Torrey Peters: 51:47

Yeah. And they're like, we were gonna sponsor you, but no longer. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 51:54

say and do and wear whatever you want, H& M. Are you open to workshopping? Could we brainstorm a little bit? What if you did your tour as Fran Lebowitz?

Torrey Peters: 52:05

I think that would work other than I, I don't know, I feel like if any writer's like secretly litigious, it's Friendly Woods.

Jason Blitman: 52:14

You'd like immediately get a cease and

Torrey Peters: 52:15

Yeah, Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 52:17

I know. Oh my god. Anyway, obsessed with her. I just there's something about, I'm curious to know where you'd buy that wig. Is really, I think, the question.

Torrey Peters: 52:25

yeah. I'd have to find, I feel like I'd have to find somebody who really knows wigs. I can't just walk into a wig store and be like, give me the Fran Lebowitz

Jason Blitman: 52:33

no, you can't walk into the H& M of wig stores.

Torrey Peters: 52:35

I'd be like, it's I can walk out with a long blonde flowing locks, but you can't get the specific

Jason Blitman: 52:42

Very specific.

Torrey Peters: 52:43

Fran Lebowitz.

Jason Blitman: 52:45

Oh my god. Hashtag things none of us, neither of us thought we were going to talk about

Torrey Peters: 52:49

No, I thought I was going to talk about books, here we are.

Jason Blitman: 52:52

Toy Peter, does my guest get a reader? I have to know, what are you reading?

Torrey Peters: 52:55

I am reading Los Nombres de Felisa by Juan Gabriel Vazquez who is a Colombian writer, and I am not actually great at reading in Spanish, but I'm attempting to read this book in Spanish.

Jason Blitman: 53:09

for you.

Torrey Peters: 53:10

Yeah, it's been, it's been slow going, but so I've been spending a lot of time in Columbia in general. And but this book, I've read his other books which are fantastic. There's one called The Sound of Things Falling which is about, Pablo Escobar era. There's another one called The Shape of the Ruins, which is about like kind of conspiratorial thinking. And then I'm reading this one now just because I like him, but I decided to even go, the other ones are written in English, but I decided to go for this one because it hasn't yet been translated, but it's about something I've been thinking about a lot. It's basically about writers in exile in Latin America. And as like right wing. Fads are like, not fads, but red scare type stuff or right wing dictatorships swept over Latin America, various parts of the last century, the writers. actually had um, experiences, thoughts, and ways of dealing with that. And, as a trans writer and in this era, I'm I think the kind of go to for what's going on right now is like Europe in the 30s or something like that. But for me, I think about like kind of fascist regimes cropping up all the time in the Americas and how the writers dealt with it. And a lot of it was like, They just went to other countries for a while. They, they formed groups that they could talk to each other. So this book is I have actually no idea how to pronounce your name, but it's a novelization about a real woman named Feluza. Bertson, who was the child of Jewish refugees who moved to Columbia, and then she became a sculptor in Columbia. So she was like, already a little bit, one level of exile grew up feeling that way. And then, In Columbia had to flee twice to Paris as right wing stuff happened in Columbia. It's really relevant to me because for me, Columbia is a place I've been going to get like some space from like right wing stuff that's happening in this country. So it's it's very interesting for me to be like reading, be like. I feel actually like more freedom of thought and

Jason Blitman: 55:24

in

Torrey Peters: 55:24

mind. It's just yeah, it's just less claustrophobic in Colombia now, which has like a left wing government than in the States. But of course, here's one of the greatest writers of, a lot of people. I think there's argument in Colombia as to who's like the inheritor of Gabriel Garcia Marquez, but you could definitely make an argument that Juan Gabriel Vazquez is. And here he is talking about how in Colombia also you had to, and he spent a bunch of time in Spain himself, away from Colombia, Only in Spain could he get the clarity to talk about Colombian politics. And so that actually like art in times of like chaos and oppression is like a weird musical chairs of artists trying to find places where they can create

Jason Blitman: 56:08

You're like living this weird parallel life of

Torrey Peters: 56:11

yeah. And that, for a long time as an American, I had the luxury to not. Consider that, but I'm, I'm in a certain way, like I'm seeing myself and I'm coming to, I'm like very early in this process, but basically being like, maybe actually this is more the lineage that. I will be aligned with, over time then a kind of typical I don't know, Jonathan Franzen or something,

Jason Blitman: 56:35

fascinating, and I imagine like reading in Spanish too is like a whole different level of experience,

Torrey Peters: 56:41

means I understand, I would say that every two sentences is a word I don't know. And I'm just comfortable, like I'm not comfortable, but I'm trying to get comfortable basically being like, it's actually okay. Somebody is telling me a story and Sometimes you don't know every word that somebody tells you.

Jason Blitman: 56:59

sometimes they mumble a little bit,

Torrey Peters: 57:01

I was saying the I was thinking about this even when, like, when I go to the car mechanic, and he's says one out of every word that he went out, one word in every sentence. I'm like, I don't know what that is. Or I talked to a skateboarder, and they're like I kicked flipped Ali, the. The whatever, I can't, I don't know. And

Jason Blitman: 57:17

talk to a teenager.

Torrey Peters: 57:18

I'm talking to you. I don't know what you're saying. I don't know half the words, but it's fine. And I like like that attitude of I don't actually, I just need to know the basics, which is like a, it's like a, maybe a non literary attitude towards reading and reading. Cause it's oh, this is literature. I should know all of the secret skillful maneuvers that he pulled off. But I just wanted to like what are you doing? What do you got to tell me?

Jason Blitman: 57:41

It like is a it's the difference between literature and storytelling and What transcends language and what doesn't you know, that's so cool

Torrey Peters: 57:50

I hope that, like maybe I'll read this book again in a couple of years. My Spanish will be better and I'll be like, Oh my God, that was a beautiful sentence that I was just like, I understood like he fell down or something like that.

Jason Blitman: 58:01

Oh My god, that's so funny. I'm just still thinking about the car mechanic and how yours you would understand or you wouldn't understand maybe one word in each sentence and I wouldn't understand like four words in each sentence.

Torrey Peters: 58:12

that, I just have to nod and be like okay. What is that gonna mean for me?

Jason Blitman: 58:16

How much is it going to cost?

Torrey Peters: 58:17

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 58:18

That's like the most important thing. well, you Have your new book coming out, Stag Dance a novel and stories.

Torrey Peters: 58:27

Not a common thing to put on to stick together, I wanted to.

Jason Blitman: 58:31

Do you have your elevator pitch worked out yet?

Torrey Peters: 58:34

Yeah, I got a basic one, which is basically it's four different stories each in a different genre that takes on a sort of a different as each one takes on a different aspect of gendered life. So you have. Infected Friends and Loved Ones is the first, which is a post apocalyptic kind of gender contagion and that is stories of is about trans community. You've got The Chaser, which is teen romance, somewhere between Brides that Are Revisited and Twilight. I'm not sure, and it's it's about, Pre transition and the way you narrativize stuff and what shame can cost you then you've got a stag dance, which is the story of a bunch of lumberjacks in the woods and they put on a dance where one of them where you can go to the dance as a woman by hanging a little fabric triangle over your crotch. And that signifies your woman and that's and, all sorts of jealousy and chaos ensues when the. big strong lumberjack decides to go to the dance as a woman and that's really about the nature of transition and what constitutes transition and who gets to do transition and then lastly you have the masker which is a story of a sissy crossdresser who goes to a party in vegas and has to choose between two Unlikely models. One is like a trans woman obsessed with respectability, and the other is a fetishist who's wearing like a full body silicone female suit. And this is a little bit about like breaking apart the ideas that like, that I think respectability politics has been throughout, in, in trans writing of the gender and sexuality are totally different and you can't find your way from one to the other. This really jum, this story really jumbles up that idea.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:18

Yeah, the book is like a lot of jumbling in a really cool way. I think that's a great

Torrey Peters: 1:00:23

yeah, I like to say it's kaleidoscopic.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:26

Yes, it is kaleidoscopic yeah, something that I've talked a lot about on the podcast is just how stuck in some semblance of a binary we are and I think the book really showcases Everything in between.

Torrey Peters: 1:00:46

Yeah, I think that the main binary that the book is breaking apart, people often think with trans stuff, Oh, it's men and, male and female and men and women. But I think the really thing that the book is breaking apart is the binary between cis and trans, you know? there's maybe five characters who identify as trans in, in The political language that you use to be like I call myself trans and everybody else is just got weird feelings and that like most of being trans is actually just I got some weird feelings and how do I want to name them and like pretty much. The, those weird feelings that I think are core to the trans experience are also not unique to trans people. It's just like how you assemble'em and how you name them. And and I really hope that like people who read this are oh, like the narrative of the chaser, for instance, is like a soccer playing bro. Who talks like a bro? It's not like a, trans narrator. It's a bro who's like got a fixation on his like femme roommate and the stuff he's dealing with like shame about his attraction how he wants to be seen by himself and the people around him you know what it costs him to like what he thinks it'll cost him to do that the kind of fear around it like internalized Both homophobia, but also in the way he actually treats Robbie, it's really internalized misogyny. Not internalized, it's just misogyny

Jason Blitman: 1:02:08

Yeah.

Torrey Peters: 1:02:09

sorry, but there's something feminine about Robbie and there's misogyny that comes with it. And like, all of these things are the exact same things that like a Robbie character who's maybe trans femme is also feeling Robbie's also feeling that stuff. And these, the things that would constitute transness. Oops, you actually just held him in a soccer playing bro. And in a weird way, I'm relating to that soccer playing bro, because I'm like, oh, you're trying to do, bro, you're trying to do a gender. I get it. You know?

Jason Blitman: 1:02:37

And it's I don't want to say it's not centralizing the trans plotline, but particularly in that story transness is secondary, right? It's it's the bros internalized. Issues.

Torrey Peters: 1:02:54

And, for Robbie's, 15 years old in that story. And my sense is that if I add a crystal ball, Robbie grows up and transitions. But it's hard to say who is trans. When you add in the sort of x axis of time, you don't, everything that Robby does, if you know that Robby grows up in transition, you're like, oh, that's a teenage trans girl. But if Robby doesn't transition, I don't know what to name what Robby is doing, I don't know where the intrinsic thing is where Robby becomes suddenly trans because I identified this intrinsic trait in Robby I, none of that is clear to me. And And that is actually the stuff that I'm interested in. Not that oh we know and we're going to explain what this means, but actually I don't know what it really means, but I do know a bit. Here's a story about how it feels and how the characters feel when they do things like. At night they like sneak out, they they're bunkmates and they like sneak out to go smoke cigarettes on the soccer field and Robbie, gives blowjobs, but that those kinds of teenage feelings of sneaking out the window and stuff like that's and feeling awkward about it and excited about it. And all those things are actually much more what are interesting me in that story than can I decide what Robbie's identity is? I don't really care.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:08

That story in particular I think stuck with me because we all universally experience the awkwardness of being a teenager, and it like, doesn't really matter. what's happening externally. We all internally feel that what the fuck is going on with my body and with my life and with, these feelings that I'm struggling to understand.

Torrey Peters: 1:04:28

I remember I was like 17 or 18 when I read Brideshead Revisited. And it was, Sebastian, Sebastian Flight and Charles Ryder, and they're at Oxford and whatever the book was written. And I'm like, 40s and it's like to me like they're clearly in love and but it's not there's no labels around it there's nothing like clear as to what's going on and Sebastian to me has some sort of gender stuff happening and it was like I saw like that book was for me and in a weird way if it continues to be for me but if it had named a lot of that stuff I might have been like oh that's not Yeah, I wasn't ready to be like, I'm gonna name that stuff for me, but instead I was just like, Brideshead's my favorite book,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:12

it's about emotions. It's about feeling. It's about vibe, right? It's not about labels. It's not about naming. Yeah. And that's part of the whole kaleidoscopic ness

Torrey Peters: 1:05:22

yeah, thank you,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:23

Yeah. Are you a theater kid at all?

Torrey Peters: 1:05:26

I don't identify as a theater kid, but if I look into my past there's some theater activities. I actually was like, I did crew. I wasn't wasn't, I ran the lights and stuff like that.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:40

So I ask because there's a couple of the stories had like whispers of theatrical things that I wanted to tell you about, assuming that you were unfamiliar. One is a musical called XANA Don't.

Torrey Peters: 1:05:54

I don't know it. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:55

It's the story of an alternate universe where everyone is queer and two people that have to come out as straight and they fall in love, and like that's, and it's the accepting of the straight kids in the school, and then there's another play that was on Broadway sometime within the last ten years or so, written by Harvey Fierstein actually, called Casa Valentina. It's based on a true story of this group of seemingly male identifying people in the 60s? 70s? Who like, Go to a house in the woods, and play dress up for the weekend, basically, and they like, live a version of their truth, and some of it is just that they like dressing up as women on the weekend, and some is that they probably, similar to what you were saying about Robbie, at some point in their life, would have transitioned but it's this little moment in time of shaking up what binary looks like.

Torrey Peters: 1:06:54

Party in Vegas and the massacre is like the actual kind of like Antisemites of that party like there are parties where like Cross, cross cross dressers who are married and self flooring or whatever in the, whatever. Go to a party, two days a year, dress up, flirt, all that sort of stuff. That party is Based on a real party that is in Vegas and that real party in Vegas is out of the social clubs of Kind of cross stressor social clubs that are directly related I do know a castle valentina's it's directly related to that kind of 60s and that's why most of you will go to those parties are now older, but they're like Yeah, it's totally that's totally I didn't I think i'd heard of that play. I never saw it

Jason Blitman: 1:07:43

Sure, sure.

Torrey Peters: 1:07:45

yeah, it's totally related and Yeah, but I didn't know about Xenodont.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:49

don't.

Torrey Peters: 1:07:49

And I mean it's a very similar to the first story in mine is Infected Friends and Burdened Ones is about a like a gender plague and by that what I mean is that these two trans girl ex girlfriends in their like dramatics unleash a plague that's not even really a plague like nothing happens to people except that they can no longer produce hormones and so they have to take hormones, which means that they like intentional about what their gender is. And like the result of having to be intentional about your gender is like so shocking to everybody in the world that they like, falls into like worldwide global conflict. Which is funny to me because like basically the conditions of that, apocalypse are the conditions of now, which is that like we actually all have to choose our gender all the time with what are we wearing? What are we doing with our hair? Like, half the cis people I know are on, especially now that Miranda July's book came out, like every. Every cis woman I know of 40 and older is on the same hormones as It's oh, look at you, you're choosing your gender, and every dude is on testosterone and it's we're all already doing it. It's just The choice was tacit rather than obvious. And so the, The idea of that story is like, basically if people had to be aware of the fact that they're already always choosing their gender and it's not like innate or intrinsic, they would freak out to such a fucking. degree that they destroy the world, I love those references. I love those references.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:17

Okay, so again, as my guest gay reader, do you have any grievances that you need to air that we need to hold space for here that have nothing to do with the crazy political climate right now? Because those are grievances that everybody

Torrey Peters: 1:09:28

in the end, it does have to do with the crazy political climate. Cause I feel like everything right now is connected to it, but let me, let me tell you what happened to me.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:35

it on.

Torrey Peters: 1:09:36

I went to West Palm beach last week. I was in Columbia, like I said, and I stopped over in West Palm beach to visit a friend and West Palm Beach, as you may know, is across the street from Palm Beach, across the intercoastal waterway from Palm Beach, which is where Mar a Lago is. So anyway, I went to the Flagler Museum on West Palm Beach, which is like the house of this railroad baron, Flagler, who made the railroads all through Florida.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:06

up in South Florida. I've been to the Flagler Museum when I was in elementary school.

Torrey Peters: 1:10:11

I was so incensed in this museum. Like you walk in and the first thing they do is like unironically quote at you, Andrew Carnegie's gospel of wealth. And then you're in this room and it's just like gigantic mansion, where it's just look at what all the like chintzy shit I bought with my equivalent of no 2012 equivalent of billions of dollars. And it's there's like recreations of like greek statues that like completely misunderstand the like greek origin to basically be like Obviously Apollo loved rich guys, like that's just so blatant and stupid. And they were like, every room was like, here's an Italian eight room or whatever. And I got to the end of it. And his wife is like his wife has a salon for entertaining and, everything's super opulent, but his wife has a salon like, entertaining her friends. And the salon is, Literally, Marie Antoinette themed. There are re there are reliefs of Marie Antoinette on the wall. And they're like, yeah, they loved Marie Antoinette. They had a Marie Antoinette club, where they thought Marie Antoinette was like really misunderstood. And that the fact that she was we, these women in a gilded room, like literally gilded. The room was gilded us in a gilded room think it was really unfair that poor people killed this woman for living in a gilded room and that she became like the symbol of obliviousness. And so we're going to actually totally misunderstand Marie Antoinette. We're going to totally misunderstand the Greeks and we're going to like, Create this like we're gonna spend all of our billions on a totally misplaced nostalgia And so I was like walking through this hotel like larry david or something like this where I was just like and there are all these like old older people around me who were there for you know Appreciating the interior decor and I was just like are you seeing this? Are you seeing this? And waving my hands around just in sense. And I think it wasn't just that it was like, oh I'm outraged about this, but it was also like, I'm, literally down the street. Is Mar a Lago, which is also like a chintzy piece of like nostalgia, that's like misunderstanding Like it's you know that rich people went to the mediterranean and at the turn of the century and they're like Let's create our own mediterranean and like totally misunderstood it and that became like a symbol of like wealth is a misunderstood mediterranean which now this like idiot guy lives in and then literally like the way it like all connects back to me why I think I was like really mad is like I think the couple of days before I was there, the news about the NEA grants came out where they're like, trans, anything to gender ideology, we're not funding the NEA grants anymore, which means that in function, anything by trans people, or https: otter. ai We literally pay taxes for that and the thing that's going to be funded in favor of it is art about the Declaration of Independence, which is just like backwards looking, misunderstanding, nostalgia. We're going to claim the Declaration of Independence for ourselves. And so I'm in this house looking at these people reclaiming Greek stuff in a totally misunderstand for themselves kind of way, reclaiming Marie Antoinette as like a hero of the people. And I'm just like, What the fuck? The the whole thing like came together where it wasn't just oh, I'm reading this on the news and I'm like, whatever. I was like, I'm a, this is, I'm like in, I'm in a history of it and it's all centered on this stupid rich guy's mansion. And I'm freaking out and no one and everyone else was like, do you think we could maybe get that fabric for our curtains to like,

Jason Blitman: 1:13:53

take a picture? Next to that

Torrey Peters: 1:13:54

It was like, I just, yeah, so that was, and I just been like, fulminating about it. To anyone who will listen, they're like, do you know about this Flagler and people, it's funny to what people who are from Florida, they're like, of course, Flagler, but in New York, I think we had different robber barons. So people are like, they're like no, and I was like, but but yeah, so that is my read. My read is that museum I don't want it to not to exist, but I want it to have a sense of irony about itself.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:25

Did you at least poop in the bathroom or something?

Torrey Peters: 1:14:28

I, I didn't. I didn't. I think I was just, I think probably my whole body just clenched up,

Jason Blitman: 1:14:34

Yeah.

Torrey Peters: 1:14:34

It was

Jason Blitman: 1:14:34

Nothing was moving.

Torrey Peters: 1:14:36

it was just,

Jason Blitman: 1:14:37

There.

Torrey Peters: 1:14:38

yeah, I don't know. I'm sure they were like, like all Tori did was like Fme for two days.'cause we took her on a nice. tour of south of, that part of South Florida. And there's, yeah, there's so many cool other things. I got some, I went to this place, it was like a fish wholesaler, amazing fish, loved it, great time talking to the people, talking to the fishmongers, good stuff. Flagler Museum, not for

Jason Blitman: 1:15:03

Not so much. All right. That's a good read.

Torrey Peters: 1:15:06

Yeah. I don't know if it's that funnery, but it

Jason Blitman: 1:15:10

What's also a really good read? Stag Dance!

Torrey Peters: 1:15:13

you. Segued.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:14

Stag Dance, a novel in stories by Tori Peters, out today.

Torrey Peters: 1:15:22

No, not to oh, I see a

Jason Blitman: 1:15:23

Out today. So make sure to get it, wait, March 11th, maybe out next week, or maybe out, no, out last week.

Torrey Peters: 1:15:33

Okay,

Jason Blitman: 1:15:34

I'm gonna pull one of those sound clips and that's what it's gonna be.

Torrey Peters: 1:15:37

the right one. Magic, magic of

Jason Blitman: 1:15:41

Definitely at the time of recording, or at the time of release, you can buy Stag Dance. It doesn't matter when it came out, because you can buy it now.

Torrey Peters: 1:15:50

it is Sale now.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:53

Tori, it's so nice to meet you.

Torrey Peters: 1:15:54

It's so nice meeting you too. Thank you for letting me complain about Flagler Museum. I, no one else has asked me to do that.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:59

Listen, I,

Torrey Peters: 1:16:00

been on my

Jason Blitman: 1:16:01

there's so much going on that everyone has things on their mind. I'm here to hold things for you.

1:16:06

Tory. Kristen, thank you so much for being here. Everyone make sure to check out the substack and everything new. That's happening over there. Thanks for joining me, everyone, and I will see you next week. Bye.