0:04

gays reading, where the greats drop by. Trendy authors tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen, cause we're spoiler free. gays reading. From poets and stars, to book club picks. Where the curious minds can get their fix. So you say you're not gay, well that's okay. There's something for everyone. gays reading. You Hello, and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode, I have author Sameer Pandya talking to me about his new book, our Beautiful Boys. And then my guest, gay reader on today's episode is Emma Donahue, you know her as the author of Room and the Wonder, and both of their bios can be found in the show notes. In case you haven't heard, I just started a gays reading Substack there, you'll find author q and As and reviews and live recordings of conversations from in person events and other super exciting content that you cannot get anywhere else. So make sure to check out the gays Reading Substack. There is a free option so you could get a glimpse of what is in there. Head on over to the uh, Instagram. Link Tree and the link is also in the show notes. There are so many books coming out today. A couple that I wanna shout out. the Prequel to Wicked, which of course is the prequel to the Wizard of Oz, but the prequel to Wicked by Gregory McGuire, uh, is Elphie and I'm excited to check that out. Also, of course, Harriet Tubman live in concert by Bob the Drag Queen, and Paradise Logic by Sophie Kemp are some of the books that I am. I'm most excited about. As always, if you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at gays Reading on Instagram and on Blue Sky, and you could watch this content over on YouTube as well. And if you like and subscribe to gays Reading, wherever you get your podcasts, you will be the first to know when a new episode drops. And that said, there are five Tuesdays in April, and so I'm only gonna be releasing four regular gays reading episodes because I only really do four gays reading episodes a month. But there are five Tuesdays. On April 1st I'll be launching a new series called Spill the Tea, where I'm in conversation with experts in their fields answering questions that we didn't even. Realize we had, and I am so excited to share these with you, they have been awesome that launches Tuesday, April 1st with Elda Ator. She is the VP and publisher of Penguin Classics and we talk about what actually makes a classic. A classic, and we learn about that whole process and it is so cool and she's awesome and it's such a great conversation. And so make sure to like and subscribe so that you know when that comes out. as I say on every episode, I'm partnering with Aardvark Book Club to provide an exclusive introductory discount to new members. new folks in the United States can join today, enter the code GAYSREADING at checkout, and get their first book for only$4 that is the best deal in town for a new book. And their selection is always so terrific. So head on over. aardvarkbookclub.com use the code GAYSREADING The link is also in the show notes and on the link tree. Alright, enjoy my conversation with Samir Pandia and Emma Donahue.

Jason Blitman: 3:39

I'm obsessed with your shirt.

Sameer Pandya: 3:42

Oh thank you. I was in India in December. And one of the genuine pleasure. So I'm from Gujarat originally, and, it's like this home of like incredible textiles. And my cousin took us textile shopping and I have this. profound love of half sleeve shirts. so we got all of these textiles and then went to basically the nice tailor that my aunt has been using for the last 50 years. And this is my

Jason Blitman: 4:16

Oh my god. I am obsessed with that.

Sameer Pandya: 4:21

It's it is just so great and it is, and what's just so amazing is we've, she's used as Taylor for so long, so that 20 years ago when I had gone there, he opened up a notebook and he's checked my name and he found me. And of course you don't. necessarily want to

Jason Blitman: 4:41

What the

Sameer Pandya: 4:42

What

Jason Blitman: 4:42

No you don't. No you don't.

Sameer Pandya: 4:46

So it was anyway, it was just the greatest thing. And so it is so yeah

Jason Blitman: 4:51

not only am I complimenting your shirt, I'm complimenting your one of a kind shirt. Your shirt.

Sameer Pandya: 4:58

It's my shirt. It is my signature shirt. And, I don't know when it was, like, there was like a, um, in some, so I lived in India in Bombay until I was eight, where, as you can imagine, it is very hot a lot. And men. Of a certain age and like my father, of course that was just the uniform, right? Which is, really nice half sleeve shirt. And years later, I found a kind of this photograph this postcard of the Bengali filmmaker, Satyajit Ray, who was always, sartorially spiffy. And he he was wearing this incredible half sleeve shirt. And I'm like, all right, dude, we are, we, I have found my, I have found my kind of the thing that, I enjoy. So here we are with my shirt. I love talking shorts.

Jason Blitman: 5:47

spiffy. What a good phrase.

Sameer Pandya: 5:51

I, I think if you're going to use the word sartorial, you have to undo its pretentiousness by by, by adding spiffiness. I think that's all I

Jason Blitman: 6:00

Oh so professorial of you.

Sameer Pandya: 6:03

That's, I have a day job. So

Jason Blitman: 6:05

know, I read bios.

Sameer Pandya: 6:07

yeah. And it's a day job. It's a day job that I like.

Jason Blitman: 6:11

That's good.

Sameer Pandya: 6:13

anyway, that's that, that, that's where all

Jason Blitman: 6:15

Wait, now I Do you have a whole closet full of shirts where you picked out the textiles and they were made just for you? Oh my god, Samir, I'm so jealous.

Sameer Pandya: 6:25

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:26

didn't even say yes, your face did.

Sameer Pandya: 6:29

Yeah, no I have some of the, and the thing is I have a lot of half sleeve shirt. It's funny because I, you know, I don't know if we wanna talk about this. I'm happy to

Jason Blitman: 6:39

Bring it, on, this is Gay's Reading, we can talk about anything.

Sameer Pandya: 6:42

so for a while I think my obsession started with these Paul Smith half sleeve shirts, paul Smith is, he's that kind of the English kind of designer who, who go, my guess is that like when the Beatles were high in their Paisley era, like they were wearing a lot of Paul

Jason Blitman: 7:03

Oh yeah.

Sameer Pandya: 7:04

and so I remember I just, and the thing is, those shirts are so expensive. And so I remember in the five years. We lived in New York, Barney's would have it's like big sale and I would like desperately look for the Paul Smith shirts that were on serious remainder, and so I start, I that's where all of this started and like the English, like shirt makers, they just a lot of times the. American shirts tend to be this, right? And I think it's a very specific kind of tailoring where you can see with the Smiths they do this kind of amazing stitching in the back. And in essence, I don't remember what kind of shirt was that I liked that I was wearing, but essentially what I did was I just took it to the tailor. And so he, Essentially tailored it exactly, including this is absurd, including this button here, which I just love. And there are a lot of half sleeve shirts in my

Jason Blitman: 8:02

Oh my god, I, I'm obsessed. And India is very high on our list of places to visit. This only makes it higher.

Sameer Pandya: 8:10

Yeah. And, I think at some point I had, I have this. I love orange and now I'm just a cliche, but I'm a big fan of orange and pink. And I think at some point I had seen a quote in Vogue or Elle magazine where it said pink and orange are the navy blue of India. And which I

Jason Blitman: 8:32

So you are a cliche.

Sameer Pandya: 8:34

I am a cliche, But thank God I live in California. So then

Jason Blitman: 8:38

know like it's such a good California shirt. Oh, my God. Listen, as much as I want to learn more about your shirts, and frankly would not be mad about with a tour of the closet, because now that textile is just so fantastic. I have to see more of them. But we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about your book, our beautiful boys.

Sameer Pandya: 8:58

and I want to show you that the new beautiful hardback arrived yesterday. And, you know, I have to say like one, if one fetishizes objects, I'm really happy to fetishize this one.

Jason Blitman: 9:12

For our listeners, tell me, tell us, tell everyone, what is your elevator pitch for our beautiful boys?

Sameer Pandya: 9:18

yeah, my elevator pitch is, um, at a party late one Friday night four boys end up in a cave three of them, they have an altercation, three of them come out and roughly 40 minutes later, the fourth one comes out screaming and hurt. And clearly has gotten into a fight and in essence, the, the driving plot of the story is what happened in the cave. And because I'm a sampler, I am essentially sampling this from A Passage to India, which is which was published 100 years ago last year in June 2024. And the driving question of that great novel is what happened in the cave.

Jason Blitman: 10:05

Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. I say that eight times Because something I wanted to bring up later is your use of a separate piece in the book. You talk about being a sampler. I had never really thought about that contextually before. And I, a separate piece, I want to be very clear, was not assigned to me in high school. So I, I didn't only not read it because I was being a bad student, but I also didn't read it because it wasn't assigned to me. But I wasn't familiar with the plot. And so I did a little research and upon learning what a separate piece is about, I was like, Oh, this is very intentional. In terms of sampling, can you share a little bit about your choice of using a separate piece as a text that comes up in the context of your book?

Sameer Pandya: 10:57

I teach literature for a living. And I tell my own origin story about the books that were important to me um, if I'm trying to be serious, or if I'm trying to perform something, I'll say, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man when I read it was important to me. And it was important to me. As a senior in high school, the first big book we were asked to read, which is incredible, which is Crime and Punishment, right? So all the big books, right? But in fact, the book that I read in high school that blew me away, that has stuck with me, and I'm not going to tell you when I graduated from high school but now a long time ago That book really stuck with me is because when you're so this is this John Knowles novel It was not assigned to me a friend of mine had read it was smarter than me Who'd said hey you want to read this book. I think it's a really interesting book and It is essentially about Two boys at a private at a boarding school and it's told, of course, in retrospect one of the boys at, at this point, and I don't think it gives away the mystery has died, and the older, wiser narrator is thinking back on that moment and when I read this book in high school, I think, of course, when you read books that are important to you, you're like, oh it's giving my own attention. Absurd, sad high school life, greater meaning, Our high school lives, our adolescences are never quite as interesting as we would have liked them to be, or as they are in these books, right? But so much of, I think, what I was thinking about then, and I think so much of what I'm thinking about with this book is, how do we think about relationships between teenagers, teenage boys in particular, And of course When I read it in high school, and now I, I, right as I was beginning, I, the book has stuck with me for so long, and so I did, I could not sadly enough find the old copy that I had from high school which is, of course, heartbreaking. So I found, a reissue of it that David Levitt wrote, writes the introduction for, right? And what's, of course, fascinating is that there are he is, Essentially arguing, I think, in the introduction to the book that the relationship between the boys is not simply platonic. And it is so fascinating for me. Reading it all of these years later with, a very different consciousness in mind. And thinking about what that looks like and how we understand it. I realized my writing is about this kind of sampling and rethinking. So let me stop there. You

Jason Blitman: 13:30

Well, so I was gonna say, in reflecting what the title of a separate piece means the sort of coming together of these three different boys to coexist, uh, for lack of a better phrase, in peace in a world where there isn't peace and they are their own little separate peace uh, I found to be another element of this book beyond the what happened in the cave question, you know, can these boys live together in harmony, basically in a platonic way in, in the context of your book. I also want to say, this is very much a football book. Are you are you a fan? Are you, a quote unquote, a literal question in the book is someone saying, have you ever watched a football game? For me, the answer is no, period. I have never watched a football game. Where did the love of football for you come from?

Sameer Pandya: 14:29

So maybe I can answer this, both, both your, what you were saying about a separate piece and then football together, right? Because what I realized, of course, and so much of this book is about the opposite of peace, which is violence right? Which is the small violences that these young men or kind of boys becoming young men inflict upon one another. But of course, the, as the narrator refers to in the book, the most un Gandhian of Sports, which is American football, right? And so for me, football was the kind of the sport that best helped me think through this idea that, these boys are asked to be violent on the field. So to your question, absolutely. I watched the game. I have so much trouble with it. I'm so disgusted by it. I'm watching it. Like that. That is, I think the older I get, I'm totally. At peace with doing things that are completely contradictory, right? I'm like, okay. Okay. Our lives are too short for me to not do that. Right? And so I love it. But I think that what I wanted to think about was I went to a couple of years before I even started writing this book. I was at a high school football game. And at one point, I noticed that there was an ambulance parked. And I asked somebody about it and they said, Oh yeah, that's a part of the league rules. And I'm like, we're playing a game where the rule is to have an ambulance? There's something really seriously wrong with this. And there's that, Jason. But then juxtapose with it is that the crowds are going crazy. And so I think that's what I'm in some ways trying to figure out, which is, I think the performance of masculinity on a football field is so over the top and yet I think you and I can, masculinity is just way too complicated to be straightforward, right? Like there are so many layers of how these young men are being acculturated on this field. And so those, that's the piece of the football and. The last sampling thing I'll tell you, which is, the two books I loved in that context is DeLillo's End Zone, which I read years ago about where he does this thing about nuclear war and football and then Friday Night Lights, right? Buzz Bissinger's book is terrific. And so in some ways, creativity is such a weird, unknowable thing, but I think what happens when you take these two or three books that have been important that have been buzzing in your ear and you M them together

Jason Blitman: 17:02

You get Our Beautiful Place.

Sameer Pandya: 17:04

You get what I tried to create? Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:06

I recently had R. K. Russell on the show, who was a pro football player, and I was saying to him I'd never seen a game. However, I'm obsessed with Friday Night Lights, the TV show. It's not dissimilar from all of the juxtaposition that we're talking about, I have no interest in watching a game, I don't think I have the patience to watch a game, it is very, I know there are lots of gay people who will who will tar and feather me to say I love the game, so don't, don't say gay people can't watch the game, but I think there is, I'm a cliche in that I'm a gay man who doesn't like to watch football and yet I couldn't, I'm not watch Friday Night Lights. I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I loved the character development. I loved everything that one will love about our beautiful boys. It's parallels in that way. So that's what I was going to share with you.

Sameer Pandya: 17:56

Yeah. No, I mean, listen, I think we all want to coach like Kyle Chandler.

Jason Blitman: 18:01

Oh My god. And a mom like Connie Britton, or a best friend like Connie Britton.

Sameer Pandya: 18:07

Totally. So that is a part of it. And I have this kind of funny little joke in the book where. The Indian American parents who know nothing about football watch Friday Night Lights to figure out what American football is, right? Because that's what it's created. I feel like, I, I know nothing about what Texas football is but that show did

Jason Blitman: 18:27

Of not only is that a joke, that's what they watch in order to understand what it's like. For me, the joke is, we'll only watch the first episode. And of course, as a huge fan of the TV show, know how the first episode ends and those parents are not going to be happy at the end of that first Episode.

Sameer Pandya: 18:43

It's their absolute fear, right? Like, that's That's the first argument that they have about when the kid wants to play is he's going to break his neck. And Kind of what happens in the first episode.

Jason Blitman: 18:54

It's interesting that you segue this into the conversation about the parents, because the book was secretly or not so secretly about parenthood and about parents and the parent child relationship and the parent relationship both amongst in couples, but also amongst each other. It reminded me. A little bit again, talking about sampling. I don't want to say sampling is a new term, but I've not talked about it this much in a conversation before. There were whiffs of the play God of Carnage. I don't know if you're familiar with that or the movie Carnage. Um,

Sameer Pandya: 19:28

What's so interesting is. I do not know it, but I can't remember who it was. Somebody, when they first read this book, they're like, this is just like the God of carnage. and and what's so interesting is when someone says that to me, I am nervous to go. Check it out because you just like, okay, I'm going to stick to what I'm doing here. And now, of course, it's between the covers. So I'm done. So I can go to it. But, Interesting thing about the process of writing this book, which was, I wanted to write a story about the adults. And I wanted to, I think in some ways, I'm interested in domesticity and marriage and the complications that exist in family, right? And kind of in families that are not at the beginning or at the end, but rather in the middle, right? Which is how do you manage middleness as opposed to the flush of excitement of earliness and the exhaustion of later, right? And I began to write about these teenagers, right? And I think I will be totally honest. I was nervous to write about it, right? This because, You fear corniness when you're writing, right? Which is if I am going to write these boys I don't want to, I don't want to sound like. An old person writing young, young people, right? And so I kept going back and forth and, the book is where it is, where I've tried to balance out both of these things. But my kind of, the thing that I keep returning back to are these three families, right? And I don't think I sat down and said, I need an Indian family, I need a white family, and I need a Latino family, right? I had Veronica Cruz in my mind. I had a thought of the books she has written. I had kind of Michael Berenger who Perhaps drinks too much and is having a rough go. And then I had, there's a scene where the Geeta Shastri, who's the mother tears down these cupboards in her kitchen. And so I had these three. Ideas of these people, right? And so you slowly build. And the idea, of course, is they're totally different. But maybe if I do my job and I know this is that this is what American families look like, that there are ways that this is their ways in which they are radically different and their ways in which they're dealing with. All of the things that all of these families are dealing with, right?

Jason Blitman: 22:06

And I think I say God of Carnage because, listen, I saw the play on Broadway, I think in 2009. So it's been a very long time. I, I couldn't quote it to you. I couldn't tell you the exact plot, but what I remember is a vibe, is a feeling, is the idea of, Kids are fighting at school and it's the parents that come together to solve the problem amongst themselves. I think that's the sort of vibe I was feeling from this. There was zero copying of any kind. It's just that the parents talking amongst themselves when there's trouble with the kids. That was, that's the only element that, that it invoked in me. But it's interesting that parent story that I saw many years ago on Broadway I felt some specific way about it that then made me feel some specific way reading about that. This, the idea of these parents working something out for their kids because ultimately they want what's best for their kids, right? And I feel Like that's a universal belief.

Sameer Pandya: 22:59

Yeah. But,

Jason Blitman: 23:01

But at what, cost is my, Is my real question,

Sameer Pandya: 23:03

yeah and that, this phrase is interesting, right? To do what's best for the kids. And I think what I've been trying to think through is what if, in fact, what's best for the kids is a displacement of what it is you desire right? That is And I'm not this cynical, but is the achievement that we want from these, that these parents want from their kids, is it somehow equal to the desire to vacation in the Maldives, right? That is. Are we consuming our children's success in the way in which we are consuming the other things that we consume to show, look how good this is, right? Which is I'm gonna buy a$16 loaf of sourdough and not worry about the fact that's$16 for a loaf of sourdough. And so I think that's one of the things that I've been. Kind of curious about right, which is at some point Nita says something about how you know About why she's pushing her kid, right and she's honest about it. She said It's a reflection of the work that they have done, right? And I think that's that's what I was trying to think

Jason Blitman: 24:18

yeah. And you have kids.

Sameer Pandya: 24:21

I have kids. Yeah, two of them. Hey, two boys

Jason Blitman: 24:25

you learned more about parenting, changed your parenting style, thought in a new way post writing this book?

Sameer Pandya: 24:34

Yeah, I think First of all, I think writing the book was an opportunity for me to visit the weird complexity of my own adolescence, and I say that Anyone that I like has a weird complexity of

Jason Blitman: 24:49

A hundred percent. We all

Sameer Pandya: 24:51

Like I yeah, like I'm not sure the person who says I had a really normal adolescence is someone I don't really trust you know,

Jason Blitman: 24:59

I would also like to talk to them. I have a lot of

Sameer Pandya: 25:02

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What are you hiding? So I think that on one level it was a desire to figure that out, right? but it was I think on something else, I am just, because this is also a book about class, right? None of these families are struggling, right? Even if, a few of them are struggling with their work and don't know where all the money is going to come from. Right? There are three well off families. And so that's what I was thinking in my particular case, right? So I moved to this country when I was eight, right? And My parents were mellow about it, but I do think there was a idea around this notion that they were moving for their own sake, for their own sense of change and of adventure. But also that, it's me and I have two older sisters that we would have different opportunities, especially that my sisters where I suspect my youngest son done in India would have served me quite well right there. It would not have been the same with them. And I think what it helped me, what this book helped me think through is what is it that I want the kind of lives I want my kids to live, right?

Jason Blitman: 26:25

Yeah.

Sameer Pandya: 26:25

and when do I get out of the way? When do I say, yeah, you do I have some ideas on what you should be doing, but I think for the most part, my parents got out of my way, right? Man, I'm not sure. I studied literature and wrote short fiction. I write novels. If they had gotten in my way, I would have been a lawyer and I've been, I would have gone to business school, but they said, okay, it's what you want to do. So give it a shot. And so I, I have, I have been thinking a lot about that, which is particularly in the immigrant context. What happens with the version of me, right? I've been here for 44 years, right? Like I, I'm a Californian, right? And so what does it mean to look like me and raise Californian children and what to say to them? And that's what I've been trying to figure out.

Jason Blitman: 27:11

This brings up a few questions that I had. In reading the book, one, which I'll talk about with you in a minute, is about expectations and the Gautam, the father character in the book, he plays this game the game of imagining who he would be if he never left. India do you play that game with yourself? You just said you don't think you would have had it too badly. If you were because of your youngest son, dumb staying in, in India, what does that game look like to you? And what in your fictionalized version of that world, what does that look like

Sameer Pandya: 27:44

Yeah, no, it's, was it that Guadalupe Paltrow movie? Was it Sliding Doors,

Jason Blitman: 27:50

sliding doors has come up on this podcast. The last like six episodes and I am both obsessed with it. And also we all need to collectively find a new reference that is not sliding door.

Sameer Pandya: 28:04

Honestly, I don't even know if I've seen it. That but all I'm

Jason Blitman: 28:09

the concept of it.

Sameer Pandya: 28:10

I just get the concept, right? And it's a really interesting question, right? So when I was back, whatever, I think it was in December of 2023, What was interesting, for example the last, the photograph that is at the end of the book is a photograph that my grandfather took my grandfather was a portrait photographer and In South Bombay, near the Taj Mahal Hotel, there's a photo studio called Dave Brothers, okay, it is his name was Hiralal Dave, and that is his photo studio, and we walked in there and why I'm bringing this up is when you're from a place where your parents or your grandparents have been, there's a really interesting experience you have in South Bombay. Okay. Of being a part of a. A series of generations, right? And had I stayed, there was plenty of that, Right? On the other hand, I was a terrible high school student, right? I, it's not that I didn't try. I genuinely tried. I sucked at it, right? A terrible SAT is all of this, right? I was You know, since we are happy with cliches for this conversation, it was a total late bloomer when it came to Writing and thinking and all of this stuff. I don't know how well I would have done there if that was the case, right? Where it is, I do think it's because it's just simply based on numbers, so many more people, right? It is just such a very different experience, right? But it is, it's like a, It's like it's such a wacky thought experiment, right? It's because all of what I have, right? Like I'm sitting in my office. I, I'm, I have a sense of what my kids look like and where I drive to and all of this, the trying to imagine that alternate life is just such a, mind

Jason Blitman: 30:12

Mm hmm.

Sameer Pandya: 30:14

I like the idea of it, but It also, I think it hurts Gita's feelings when Delta obsesses, right? She's but you would have never met

Jason Blitman: 30:20

Sure.

Sameer Pandya: 30:21

And,

Jason Blitman: 30:22

There's something so interesting about you talking about the deep roots of a place. because my Mom is from Skokie, Illinois. My dad is from Long Island. And Strangely, I went to school in Chicago, and I lived for many years in New York City, so I lived in the city version of the suburb that they grew up living in, and if they had never left what am I trying to say? There's something very interesting about, Legacy and the fabric of who we've become. And even though I never lived in Skokie and I never lived in Long Island, but I did live semi versions of that. I do, there is a part of me that feels like those places. are also a part of me, right? I was a Midwesterner and a New Yorker growing up living in South Florida, even though, just because that was a part of my fabric and my legacy, Sort of what you're talking about in terms of, The legacy existed for you in India that you would have not fallen in line with, because I don't mean to say it like that there was a path. You weren't reinventing the wheel of who you might become, per se.

Sameer Pandya: 31:30

Yeah. There is also this pleasure in being in a place Where that legacy does not

Jason Blitman: 31:36

Absolutely.

Sameer Pandya: 31:37

right? Which is why we love Los Angeles and Palm Springs and California, right? Where, where you can feel like, okay, and that's a thing, right? It's so fascinating to me that, everyone is, for all the understandable reasons, obsessed with Joan Didion and her Californianess,

Jason Blitman: 31:55

yeah,

Sameer Pandya: 31:55

she's so much about, like, where I was from. And I think so, for so many of us, California is a very different place. space, right? It's a space of openness. And that's what I enjoy, right? I think that there is a way in which you can create yourself in a very different kind of

Jason Blitman: 32:13

absolutely. And while you can do that, you're still creating it within the context of the human that you have become, and that is from that legacy, right? So it's, you're able to forge your own path. You're not following in someone else's footsteps, but you are, you're doing so with the guidance of what you've learned from your past, I guess is, I think an interesting

Sameer Pandya: 32:36

And that's a thing. Yeah, that stuff you're just not going to leave

Jason Blitman: 32:39

Right, Right, right, right. leave it behind.

Sameer Pandya: 32:42

yeah, but it may be the thing, hopefully, that we do, with enough time and enough therapy is recognize in your case when Skokie is showing up. Or when

Jason Blitman: 32:52

Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly.

Sameer Pandya: 32:54

And so just be like, okay, this is where this is coming from, right? And it is fascinating. Still to this day, like just things around, like, these things that you learn when you're really young, right? About, I don't know, shoes in the house or what you, like a backpack, like what do you do with a backpack? Do you Carefully put it down. Do you throw it? All of these things, these details that you didn't think were so important to you. If you learn them when you were quite young, they stick with you in different kinds of ways and shape the kinds of decisions that you're

Jason Blitman: 33:27

We're sitting here talking about forging our own path, but having a hard time letting go of our baggage, and at the beginning of our conversation, when you're talking about shirts, you were talking about being a cliché, liking pink and orange. It's like, okay, but that's, But that's the baggage. Right? Cause, cause you're not a cliché in California.

Sameer Pandya: 33:48

And if you're lucky, the baggage, it's like nice baggage, right? Like That's, yeah, it's

Jason Blitman: 33:52

tailored baggage.

Sameer Pandya: 33:58

it helps, you know, like it could be, it can be something totally different,

Jason Blitman: 34:01

of course, of course. Um, you know, You talking about had you stayed in India, you were not a very good student, that wouldn't have necessarily gone over very well. it it comes back to the conversation that I wanted to have about expectations, based on our race, our gender, our class, our sexuality, our sport of choice, our instrument that we play, there are all of these societal expectations. That come, or expectations and probably cliches that come with all of these things, some of them are self imposed, some of them are from outside forces, and this book, I think, breaks the mold and makes you reassess What your own expectations are of these people. I was surprised that they were all great students. And I loved that

Sameer Pandya: 34:59

What, why is meaning that you were not, because they were boys or just

Jason Blitman: 35:04

because they were? boys. They were jocks because they were about to graduate high school. You know, it's easy to. Not only were they weren't just passing. They were exceptionally good students.

Sameer Pandya: 35:18

You know what? A couple of things about that. So

Jason Blitman: 35:22

Yeah.

Sameer Pandya: 35:22

am,

Jason Blitman: 35:23

so glad you

Sameer Pandya: 35:26

I'm thinking, I'm trying to think through these

Jason Blitman: 35:28

I

Sameer Pandya: 35:30

Because God knows we got to talk about it, right? Because they are

Jason Blitman: 35:36

Oh.

Sameer Pandya: 35:37

thinking about stuff, doing stuff, right? This is in some ways, this is the year of boys, right? Where I think we need to think about what they're listening to, what they're engaged in, right? The novel I wrote before this was first person, right? What was genuinely frightening about writing this book was I was like, I'm going to go from point of view to point of view. And that is a scary thing to do as a writer is because readers, I think, and I, as a reader had done this I'm like, okay, I can't go to, I can't flip to somebody else. So anyway, one hopes that one does the craft work well, where there's enough signals and things like that. So I was trying to figure that out. And to go into their minds and to think about the ways in which they are who we expect them to be and not. And maybe the one example that we can talk about is M. J. Berenger, who is the the senior, the quarterback of this team, who, as this novel opens, has basically decided to no longer wear shoes, right? And it, right? It just becomes his thing, right? And in fact, and his father at some point says, I think maybe to him or his wife, says, the people that don't have shoes are the ones who desperately want shoes, right? So this idea that he is this is this kid, he is, essentially, a golden boy, right? Like this, he has this kind of incredibly strong arm. He's smart. He's a little shy. He is trying to work through all of this, right? And I think a part of his shyness is based on the fact that he's handsome, right? And there's a way of deflecting one's handsomeness through pushing away, right? And there's a different version of it, which is the worst version, right? Where you become cocky and terrible. And I was trying to think through how to do MJ in that context. But I think he is in some ways trying to. Figure out what does it mean to exist in this really wealthy family that he lives in where there is, where there are these paintings whose origins he doesn't know that there's a, I think one of the things I really love as a writer is to just think about objects which is what does it mean for someone to have a, for there to be a house with a hundred year old sofa, where the cover gets reupholstered over and over again, the right idea that you inherit furniture as a marker of wealth, as opposed to buying furniture as a marker of new money. And all of that stuff is, I think I was trying to work through, but that is I do think that what novels I want them to do is to take these characters that both seem familiar, but then to really defamiliarize them.

Jason Blitman: 38:19

them and also provide an opportunity for us to really get to know someone rather than make assumptions. Could you do it? Could you not wear shoes for a year?

Sameer Pandya: 38:32

Me?

Jason Blitman: 38:33

Yeah.

Sameer Pandya: 38:34

I just, I like shoes too

Jason Blitman: 38:37

Yeah. Me too.

Sameer Pandya: 38:38

That's the thing is, I think, in a way I have Shoes are so fun and you can really lose a lot of your money buying them, right? Like I'm not just talking about this whole sneaker obsession that I'm just so sick of, right? But just in general, right? If you allow yourself the absurdity of it, right? It is endless. So I just simply, And I think personally for me, I feel like my own kind of, how I think of my brownness is as a kind of a racial identity where I have directly or indirectly taught myself to disappear. To in the space that exists between blackness and whiteness. I'm just like, I so what that means is, and that's good and bad, right? I'm not saying it's laudable, nor is it the opposite, right? It is just what I have, how I have socialized myself, right? And in some ways, Not wearing the shoes is the exact

Jason Blitman: 39:45

Correct.

Sameer Pandya: 39:46

right? MJ can do it because no one's ever going to question it, right? The thing is, if you are being questioned constantly in the social spaces that you enter, What you do to manage it is to upgrade as so profoundly as possible so that no one will

Jason Blitman: 40:08

right? And not provide any opportunity for someone to ask questions.

Sameer Pandya: 40:12

absolutely right. You, the car is as clean as possible, the shirts are as pressed as

Jason Blitman: 40:17

hmm.

Sameer Pandya: 40:18

But I also appreciate the fact that MJ is thinking through this is all blood money I'm living in.

Jason Blitman: 40:23

All right. In a similar vein, I have to ask there is talk of, of all of the uh, phases that a teenager goes through in the book. There's the, someone goes through a mullet phase, the mustache phase, the walking everywhere phase. What was your embarrassing teenager phase? The face you just made!

Sameer Pandya: 40:47

I will. So can I tell you this? And I can't believe I did this. So this is quite a little bit before I was a teenager. So when I arrived here, I was here for 3rd grade, 4th grade and 5th grade. Okay. I moved to a different school. For sixth grade, right? It was it was like what and I, I said earlier that I was a terrible student. I was a terrible student, but whatever. I moved to what they in those days called a gifted classroom, right? So all of these different kids showed up and I will tell you that year we put out a play and I played Romeo and I memorized that entire thing. I showed up to the first day of class. Pretending I have a British accent,

Jason Blitman: 41:37

Wow. I was not expecting you to say that.

Sameer Pandya: 41:41

I wasn't either, and I was like, what am I doing? And it was so weird, and I think in a way, part of it was that there were just so many kids in this classroom that seemed so much smarter and so much hipper and so much more interesting. I was like, I gotta find something. I haven't been out of India for that long, right? And I think what's just so ridiculous about it is that eventually, of course, it just went away, and I'm sure Some of these kids were thinking like, what happened to that dude's accent? He like sounds Like he just sounds normal now. Is that all it takes is like

Jason Blitman: 42:14

Right. Right. Oh, this is assimilation!

Sameer Pandya: 42:17

yeah, exactly so So I think that was like a weird. Kind of sixth grade thing that I did, I, I do think, so I think and then high school was just weird and random. After my freshman year in college I took a trip to Europe and I did not shave that entire summer so that I can return back and purchase beer from this liquor store because I go here and it worked. And between my British accent and my beard might be my two kind of phases

Jason Blitman: 42:54

Wow. Okay, your kids are not allowed to listen to this episode.

Sameer Pandya: 42:58

No. It's so funny, I literally thought about it for a second. I'm like, what are they gonna do? But, whatever, it's they'll it all feels tame

Jason Blitman: 43:06

seriously. Thank you for sharing that. Those are really great examples of the question, and I think it's It is not dissimilar from the shoes conversation, right? I think it's very, it tells a lot about who we are, the phases that we go through.

Sameer Pandya: 43:21

Can I ask you like, so what do you think it like. these phases our desire to say, I want to try something else? Or I think I'm wondering about your question in terms of what is it that we are doing when it is that we do all

Jason Blitman: 43:39

that's, That is a very interesting question to the question. I hearing you ask that back, I think as a society we have an issue or. We incorrectly call it a phase, or we have an understanding of what a phase means I think people see phases as a bridge, from one piece of your life to the next, and I don't think that's fair, because that implies that it's not real, or it's not really who you are, or that it will eventually end, right? And I The idea of wanting to grow out the beard to appear older so that you could buy liquor from the liquor store. That is that's actually smart. That wasn't a beard phase, that was just a good idea.

Sameer Pandya: 44:39

was mature. That was

Jason Blitman: 44:40

right, exactly. The, the British Accent thing, again, this is me, therapizing you, but I, it is an element of standing out, of showing your individuality, and I imagine part of letting that go was A, realizing that you don't need that to be individual, and B, leaning into other things that make you individual. So the root of it doesn't actually go away, but the rest of it does. It fades away.

Sameer Pandya: 45:16

Yeah. In some ways, part of what this book is about and particularly the case with the narrative strand of Veronica Cruz is what this idea of performance means, Right? And that when I think about performance so my, my, my turn as Romeo in the sixth grade is a performance, right? And we think about it as I was on stage and then I returned back, right? But we do these series of performances, right? And in some ways, part of what I've been trying to figure out with this book and these teenage boys is they are simply enacting these performances, right?

Jason Blitman: 45:58

But, so are the

Sameer Pandya: 45:59

God, that, that's the thing, right? This is the thing, which is the parents aren't done with it, right? I don't know. I don't know if our beautiful boys are in fact the fathers in this book, right? And the mothers who are all basically carrying them on their shoulders, right?

Jason Blitman: 46:18

I mean, they have their issues too.

Sameer Pandya: 46:21

A course, and all of them

Jason Blitman: 46:22

Yeah,

Sameer Pandya: 46:23

And they're rough and surely her elbows are sharp, and she uses those sharp elbows, but I think that's a thing which is, what is the performance that Michael is engaged in if his office is empty, and he's been going to an empty office, right?

Jason Blitman: 46:38

Before I let you go, I have the most important question of the day to ask you.

Sameer Pandya: 46:44

No, boy.

Jason Blitman: 46:45

Where did butt darts come from?

Sameer Pandya: 46:59

you know, For those who are going to hopefully read the

Jason Blitman: 47:01

Uh huh.

Sameer Pandya: 47:02

It's a game that appears to go back to our God of Carnage conversation when the parents have gathered to basically drink and figure out what their kids are not telling them. And Michael Berenger, who is a who is, the kind of charming lively guy who has always uncorked a really nice bottle of wine before you've finished your glass, right? That is his affect, right? And we know

Jason Blitman: 47:34

know those people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sameer Pandya: 47:36

know that guy, right? And so he is wonderful and I will just whatever. I'll let people

Jason Blitman: 47:43

what butt darts

Sameer Pandya: 47:43

looks like. It includes a quarter. A quarter is the important as opposed to a football, you need a quarter. And it was in fact a family friend of ours who I thank in my book because I am not going to take responsibility for knowing this game and pretending like I figured it out or whatever. I am sure there is a great Essay to be written about the origins of butt guards, which is an essay that poor veronica may have to write at some point, but I I don't know where but a friend of mine I was at a party and it was being played and I was just looking and I was like, I cannot believe these are respectable

Jason Blitman: 48:25

Did you play?

Sameer Pandya: 48:26

this. Of course I

Jason Blitman: 48:27

Did you, were you good?

Sameer Pandya: 48:29

it took me a while. It takes, it takes a lot of good core work.

Jason Blitman: 48:33

I'm sure

Sameer Pandya: 48:35

It's and other, if your hamstrings are a little tight, it makes it

Jason Blitman: 48:38

Yeah

Sameer Pandya: 48:39

but I have, look, here's the thing with this game which is you cannot introduce it too early. With a group of people you do not know. Because then you're taking

Jason Blitman: 48:51

You are.

Sameer Pandya: 48:51

just go, it may just go off the rails.

Jason Blitman: 48:54

is I read about it And I need to try it.

Sameer Pandya: 48:57

you have

Jason Blitman: 48:58

I'm very excited.

Sameer Pandya: 48:59

just have to. And it's just a question of when in the party it occurs. And it has to be before dessert is my sense that it's in the lull after dinner is over and people are wondering if they should be leaving. That

Jason Blitman: 49:14

That butt darts comes out.

Sameer Pandya: 49:16

that butt darts comes out. Yeah. I am when you were leading up to that, I thought I was going to get a, there are all sorts of different questions that I thought I was going to get asked. And I'm really glad that's a question that we

Jason Blitman: 49:27

Yeah. When I just produced a book festival, there was an author who talked about how we are all villains, because we have all done something that made someone feel not great. And that really stuck with me. And it reading this book, and again, not to give anything away, but it had me thinking too, about those times in my life when maybe I was a villain and didn't mean to be, or didn't like that I was, or tried to push out of my mind and I think really helps make us think about the people who we are, the people who we become, the people who we were, how we can all just live in our own little separate piece.

Sameer Pandya: 50:05

Yeah, no, it is. And how we think about our future based on all this, right? Because so much of our living is moving towards that, right? And how do you do to use what you just said is, right? How do you make peace with whatever has come before as you step into this future

Jason Blitman: 50:26

Yeah. Samir, congratulations. Our beautiful boys.

Sameer Pandya: 50:32

Thank you so much. This is a really amazing

Jason Blitman: 50:34

My pleasure. Thank you so much for being here. Emma Donoghue, I am so thrilled to have you here as my guest gay reader on Gays Reading. You are tremendously prolific.

Emma Donoghue: 50:46

seem to stop. You know, it just spills out of me. And I think my career, I think I'd have a much cooler reputation if I was slower, if I was like, wait, making 10 years for a book, people would think I was deep. But unfortunately it's like the pace you speak out. You can't really help us. You know, if you're. You're someone with verbal diarrhea, that's how you are.

Jason Blitman: 51:08

Yeah, that's fair. Listen, it keeps you in the zeitgeist, versus the people that sort of shut away for a while to

Emma Donoghue: 51:16

I suppose so, yeah, but I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, it stops me from getting bored, which is the main thing.

Jason Blitman: 51:22

Listen, that's all that matters, when I was looking at the list of books that you've published, I was like, oh my god, this is 17? Is that what it is?

Emma Donoghue: 51:29

not quite sure of the number. I don't know, I'd have to check. They all start to blur,

Jason Blitman: 51:34

I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure it's 17.

Emma Donoghue: 51:37

I'll take your word for it. It's like my mother. My mother had eight children, right? So her memories of us were a little blurred towards the end. I'd say like, did that happen when I was a baby? And she'd say, well, you only really remember the first baby. After that, it's just a crowd.

Jason Blitman: 51:49

Do you think this is what you're doing? Are you replicating your childhood by just producing more and more of your

Emma Donoghue: 51:55

just to create a festive atmosphere and also it spreads your risk because you're like any one baby might be a dud, so produce lots of babies.

Jason Blitman: 52:03

That's so clever. Emma, as my guest gay reader today, I have to know, what are you reading? What's on your shelf? What's on your

Emma Donoghue: 52:08

Um, well, this is going to sound very, um, Lazy of me, but I'm in the middle of the January 13th, um, issue of the New Yorker because you see I save them up for traveling. I like to travel super light. I always go on book tour. I am about to do a 15 city tour. I'll bring one carry on. Okay. And so I can't afford to be bringing paper books. So I bring, Paper copies of The New Yorker, maybe two months worth, and then I just throw them away as I go, as I finish. So, um, right now I will be reading a cartoon from The New Yorker about writing, which is very comforting to me. and then, what else am I reading? I'm always reading something, uh, for, for a project that I'm working on. So I'm reading a book called Fighting Proud, The Untold Story of the Gay Man Who Served in Two World Wars. So, yeah, that's for a World War I project I have, and I need to know about the, the covert gay action, basically, in World War I. Um,

Jason Blitman: 53:07

interesting.

Emma Donoghue: 53:08

my own book, because you have to, because by the time you go on a book tour, you've forgotten it. You're thinking of your next book. And so you can be asked a question in an interview, and you can go blank on the name of your main character, which is very embarrassing.

Jason Blitman: 53:21

I think you're in the minority here because so many people, well, so many people that I'll interview at their in person author events or something, I will ask them questions from the book and they're like, did I write that? I haven't read the book in so

Emma Donoghue: 53:33

That's the thing. I mean, you don't want to give your audience the impression that you're like bored with it or anything. So, so yeah, I always reread and I mark up. You know, I attached little sticky labels marking up which passages might be good to read from because I love giving readings. Um, and not all authors enjoy that, but I really like to do all the different voices and ham it up. You know, I find that great fun. as well as the Q& As, which are, I think, what readers like best nowadays when they're meeting authors. They love to be able to ask you highly specific questions. So yeah, I have to mark up which are good

Jason Blitman: 54:05

At the beginning of this conversation, we talked about conversations and how beautifully segwayed they can be, and you just beautifully segwayed me into talking about your new book, but I don't want to talk about that

Emma Donoghue: 54:17

Fine, fine. Well,

Jason Blitman: 54:20

Because I I, I wanna take me, I wanna take us back to the January 13th, New Yorker, because I am recently a New York Magazine subscriber, and the first time I got my physical copy, I was so excited, I didn't read it cover to cover, but I like, did a pretty good job at covering most of the, issue. But now I have a bit of a backlog, and I'm regretting getting the physical copies, but bringing them while traveling

Emma Donoghue: 54:50

it really is. And um, it means also when you're traveling, you're in a slightly more ruthless frame of mind anyway. You're just, you know, you're, you're killing time. So I think the trick with any magazine is to let yourself skip any article that's not ringing your bell. Do not feel you have to read it cover to cover, because then you won't. And then you'll associate the magazine with nothing but guilt, and that would be a shame. So, you know, I mean, The New Yorker is so well written that I have often found I'm fascinated by a 10 page article about, like, apple harvesting or something that I had no prior interest in. But equally, if there's, if they're going very deep dive on American politics at the state or city level, And if we're halfway into this congressperson, you know, and if it's not doing it for me, I just move on five pages to the next thing. So, so let yourself, read them very much in a spirit of pleasure, pleasure and whim and curiosity. You know, there's, there's no point making them into a, a rod for your own back

Jason Blitman: 55:45

I appreciate this. I didn't know how PSA and, and moment of su of support. Yes. Thank you. Okay, you gave me a beautiful segue. I'm gonna go back to said beautiful segue. You, you are re reading your own book as you prepare to go on tour. That would be The Paris Express by Emma Donoghue. The 17th book. Crazy. tell us, what is your, do you have a logline for the book yet? An elevator pitch?

Emma Donoghue: 56:12

I would say it's the true story of a disaster. That happened in Paris in 1895, and it was a disaster of speed, a train came into Paris too fast and couldn't stop. So that makes it right there, a little parable of runaway capitalism, a little parable of our misguided faith in progress and tech, and our ruthless pursuit of the comfort and convenience of the rich. over the, you know, the workers getting, you know, severed and smashed along the way. Um, so the Paris Express is, is very factual in that it's about a very real crash and the story, you know, starts as the train takes off and ends when the train stops. Um, but within that There's a, a, a huge cast because I decided that Paris in the 1890s was such a hub, it was like, I don't know, New York City in the 80s or something, it was, it, it drew people who were, you know, scientists and inventors and troublemakers and anarchists and queers and feminists and foreigners. Um, so, so it was this amazing kind of magnet. And so I decided I'm going to put these real people in the book because I don't know everybody who was on the train, but these people could have been on the train. So I, I literally just Googled who was around in, in, in Paris in the 1890s and then chose the people who would be the most interesting for my purposes. And I didn't always know in, in advance whether they were the right people because sometimes I would research them thoroughly and I'd write a few scenes and then I'd be like, I'm sorry you're not earning your place because you may have a great backstory, but on this particular day you're just sitting there on the train eating peanuts, aren't you?

Jason Blitman: 57:54

Is there someone that you miss?

Emma Donoghue: 57:56

Uh, you know, I did some scenes from the point of view of the dancer, Loie Fuller, the one who danced in amazing silks and gauzes, but unfortunately on my train she wasn't dancing, so she

Jason Blitman: 58:07

Uh, right, of

Emma Donoghue: 58:08

to entertain me, you know?

Jason Blitman: 58:10

dancer is just sitting, are they really a dancer?

Emma Donoghue: 58:12

exactly.

Jason Blitman: 58:14

have said that you have, uh, you write, uh, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but something about how you write where people are in some kind of peril. That's your, your go to. Um, world right now, where we're like always in peril, I feel like it's a good thing and a bad thing that you all, you have so much to choose from.

Emma Donoghue: 58:38

That's true, but you know, a book offers the comforting sense, the comforting illusion. That there's a pattern that makes sense, you know, you, you drop a hint and then it pays off, you open a possibility and then you resolve that storyline, you know, you know, life is so messy and random and bad things happen to good people, but in books, you can make it more that, you know, plot often does emerge out of character. I mean, okay, some random bad things happen. Um, somebody who dies in this book, totally not. their fault, but equally at the, at the level of subplot, you can see individual moments that arise out of character. So for instance, one thing I could tell from, from researching this, this train crash is that it happened because some rich guy basically asked for a special stop. He said, you know, you're, the train is only stopping four places. I want you to stop in my country village and let's hitch on my private carriage. And this added 10 minutes to the journey, which you might think was not a big deal, but the crew were under. Such pressure from the railway company to, uh, get to Paris on time every day for the convenience of, of the guests. That, um, they, they basically took a risk in order to try and make up those 10 minutes. So, I would say the whole thing really does grow out of the Asshole Rich Guy character. Which, you know, again is a very modern theme, you know. Rich assholes who have brought on disaster on us all. We can all think of a few names there.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:04

the very beginning of, of you describing this, you said, uh, that novels provide a comforting sense, and then you corrected yourself and said comforting illusion.

Emma Donoghue: 1:00:17

That's right, they're far

Jason Blitman: 1:00:18

you know what, you know what Emma, that's not very comforting!

Emma Donoghue: 1:00:21

They are, they are I don't know, comforting is the wrong word maybe. It gives us a sense of order and pattern, you know, the pattern is sometimes rich assholes are destroying the world. They shape things, you know, because what stresses out a lot of us nowadays is the sheer number of headlines. We see the sheer number of things we hear about in all those different countries. You know, and I sometimes think, oh, two centuries ago, I wouldn't have been worried about that. You know, civil war breaking out far, far away because I wouldn't have known about it or at least not in time to worry about it. So many of us are, are frazzled and overstimulated and freaked out and we don't know how to read the headlines and then turn back to our day. We don't know how to divide our energies between the far away things or the future things that, you know, recessions not yet here, um, and the past things. Um, so, so a novel is, is better shaped than life. So, yeah, you can put a lot of scary and messy things in there and this novel is, you know, features, for instance, an anarchist who basically thinks the entire society is, is evil and that they have to literally burn it all down and restart. So, you know, it's a novel with plenty of social protest in it, but it is, it is shaped and there's a certain maybe aesthetic comfort to that. You know, it's not quite as messy as real life.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:43

not only that though, but I do think there is a comfort. for me at least, that, uh, history tends to repeat itself. And, and that can be for better or for worse. I think it's just comforting to know that we have, as a society, made it through, right? You know, so,

Emma Donoghue: 1:01:59

You know, during during COVID, I was working, I was just finishing up a novel set in a previous pandemic, the flu of 18, 1918. And I found it very comforting that people had got through worse before. And that the same, the same things tend to happen, you know, like, you know, governments blaming poor people for their, for their dirty, overcrowded living conditions. But, you know, you all get through in the end. Um, so, so yeah, the, the long perspective historically is very comforting, especially on, say, issues of social justice, you know? Like, there's a moment in my novel where, um, you know, Dreyfus had, had, had just been Um, sent off to an island as a spy, and everybody in France thought he was an evil spy. We now know with the long perspective that he was a victim of anti semitic framing, and he was completely innocent. They didn't, and somebody mentions his case as an example of where, you know, one journalist she knows thinks Dreyfus may be innocent, but it's going to take so long to try and prove that to anyone. So, equally, there's, there's another moment when, um, somebody notices a woman is wearing earrings made of hummingbird heads. And he's aware of the kind of anti, anti bird exploitation campaign. And again, in those days, it would have seemed impossible to ever persuade women to stop wearing birds as decoration. Um, so, you know, little, little moments like that where you glimpse the, the exhausting social justice causes of the past. It definitely gives you a little bit more, um, you know, gas in the tank to keep going today.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:28

mean, you have also called yourself a compulsive time traveller. Uh, of keep dipping back into historical fiction for comfort? Or what do you think brings

Emma Donoghue: 1:03:39

It's more,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:40

to these

Emma Donoghue: 1:03:41

yeah, it's more like what makes you travel. It's not exactly comfort. It's certainly not coziness, but it's, it's, it's a trip. It's wild. It's, it's different. It stops you from feeling just stuck in the routine or, or stuck in the. confines and limits of your own particular life. I mean, I've got a really happy life, but like most happy lives, it's relatively samey, right? Extremely happy 31 year relationship. You know, that does not produce much narrative, you know? So then my books, I want a lot more to be happening. So, for me to do something like write a novel about, um, you know, early medieval monks landing on an island and trying to survive there, you know, it, it literally gets me out of my own life and it helps me to empathize with people who are utterly different from me. You know, and it's, it works your heart, you know, it, because when I write a page from the point of view of someone, even if he's a, you know, a mad, zealous, patriarchal monk, who's, who's, who's trying to punish the other monks by making them stand up to the neck in cold water, you know, for that page, for the length of time I'm writing that page. I see things from his point of view and I think that's a, that's an exercise we should all go through, you know, uh, to, to, to understand and sympathize with, or at least, at least laugh at the, the sheer differences of others.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:59

of, any characters like that that are so different from you ever changed the way you see something?

Emma Donoghue: 1:05:05

Yeah, I, in one of my previous novels, The Sealed Letter, um, one of the three point of view characters is a husband who was an admiral and he was very like, You know, stiff and judgy, and he basically hauled his wife into court to prove that she was cheating on him, and he cast her off so she'd never see her kids again. So, you know, I knew I wasn't going to like him as much as the wife or the wife's girlfriend, but when I was writing his passages, I got totally into his point of view. For instance, he was super tall, so when he served on a ship, um, he had to, like, You know, light curled up and at a certain point he, he made a little sort of aperture in the wall to put his head in, so I, I was living in his very tall body, um, and I was thinking about men's clothes, for instance, and they, they're starched collars that literally And I remember thinking gender is a prison, you know, whether you're, whether you're the boss or the undervalued one, you know, these, these arbitrary rules, like men have to wear pointy collars are limiting to everyone. Um, so, so yeah, I, I, for me, it's been hugely. educational and it opens my mind to write from people's point of view who aren't me. And in this novel, The Powers Express, I've adopted as many different points of view as would fit really, because I, I really loved the, the multiplicity of it.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:22

Thank you for sharing. You know, it's, I think, people often talk about, uh, quote unquote, walking in someone else's shoes gives you empathy, but I think for you to, just, just to share that little anecdote, um, and just say like, oh, maybe he was a little bit of an asshole because, you know, his, his pokey that day. Like, there's, it's, You know, it really does give you a tiny bit of empathy even when someone is being terrible. Um, Are you, I know you love living in the world of theater. Are you working on anything in the theater right now?

Emma Donoghue: 1:06:56

Well, actually you asked me about my reading. So one of the things I'd be reading is I'm reading a play because I'm a bit of a stage mom. My daughter is a young actor, so she lets me do things like choose her monologues for auditions and stuff. Um, so

Jason Blitman: 1:07:09

Okay, Mama Rose.

Emma Donoghue: 1:07:11

exactly. you you sense how easy, how easily I could, you know, go to the bad side here. So she's got a callback coming up. So I'm like reading through the play and marking passages and so on. So it's great fun to have this kind of sideline, which is literary, but yes, um, I, um. I have a play coming on this summer, which is my first musical. It's a folk musical, meaning we're using traditional Irish songs to help tell the story. So it's at the Blyth Festival here in Canada this summer, and it's basically about Irish 1840s. But I'm using those traditional songs to tell the story, and I'm having such fun with it. It's probably one of the easiest things I've ever written. It's just, it's just coming.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:55

Oh wow, that's so exciting, congrats, um, okay, as my guest gay reader, I have to know, do you have any grievances you need to air? Anything

Emma Donoghue: 1:08:03

I've no grievances but I'm reading, um, a wonderful book by somebody I'm doing an event with in, um, Virginia. A champagne and cake themed event, which again is a first for me, you know. I'm not sure there's been any cake at any of my events and certainly no champagne. So this is delicious and southern hospitality at its best, I think. So this is The Wilds by Louis Bayard. And he's new to me, but I'm now ordering everything he's written before because this one is just fabulous.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:30

Okay, well my petty grievance is that I've never had cake at a book event I've ever done, and I need to change that. I'm, I'm sending a note to everyone who I'm coming up working with to say we must

Emma Donoghue: 1:08:41

this is how great social justice campaigns begin. You know, they start with a petty grievance and then everyone else is like, yeah, me too, man.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:48

See, you've never had one and you've done so many book events. How is this possible? Your odds have been

Emma Donoghue: 1:08:52

always associate, you know, a delicious thing with whatever new habit you're trying to inculcate. So anytime I've brought my kids to the theater, I've like bought them expensive chocolates or anything they like at the interval. If there are two intervals, I buy them two things. So of course they associate performance with, with delicious deliciousness. So it should be like that with cake. There should be at least a sampling tray as we enter a bookstore, shouldn't there?

Jason Blitman: 1:09:17

Oh, you are so Pavlovian with your children. How funny! They have some, some delicious chocolate And they expect to see some Noel

Emma Donoghue: 1:09:25

then they end up wanting to go into theater. This is what I've brought on myself.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:29

I know, I know. This is a blessing and a

Emma Donoghue: 1:09:32

Hey, who am I to say that you shouldn't pursue a life in the arts? You know, it happened to work for me.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:37

Well, no, of course, as a person with a degree in theater who now randomly hosts a book podcast, it could take you on a very long and wonderful and winding journey, much like a train ride.

Emma Donoghue: 1:09:49

everything's like a train ride. when you're writing a book about a train. You know, it's just becomes the omnipresent metaphor.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:55

Emma, thank you so much for being here.

Emma Donoghue: 1:09:57

It's been just lovely. Thank you so much.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:00

a pleasure chatting. Have a great rest of your day.

1:10:03

Samir, Emma, thank you both so much for being here. Everyone, thanks for listening. Don't forget to tune in next week for the very first episode of Spill the Tea, featuring Elder Ator, and I will see you then. Have a great rest of your week. Bye.