0:04

Gays reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host Jason Libman, and on today's episode we have Katie Kitamura talking about her new book audition that comes out today. And my guest, gay reader is the terrific Nathan Lee Graham, who is currently starring in mid-century modern, where all of the episodes are streaming now. On Hulu. Both of their bios are in the show notes. if you are new to Gays Reading, here are all of the things to share with you. I just started a Gays reading Substack. There are author q and As and reviews live recordings of other conversations, other exciting content. You could check that out. The link is in the show notes and also. On the Instagram link tree, we are on Instagram at Gays Reading. If you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media, like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops, and if you are so inclined to leave a five star review. Please do so. no pressure, but my birthday was just a couple of days ago. It was on Sunday. And if you happen to wanna leave a review, that certainly would mean so much to me. And, uh, as I say on many episodes, this is a little indie podcast and I am only able to do it with the support of listeners like you, just like PBS. And don't we all need that right now? Anyway, a yay. Yay. Uh, I also just released a new series called Spill the Tea, my first episode in that series released last week with Elda Rotor. She is the VP and publisher of Penguin Classics. We get into it about what makes a classic, a classic, which was super fun. Check that out if you haven't yet, and also, again, if you're new, I partner with Aardvark Book Club to provide an exclusive introductory discount for new members. You can get a new book. For$4 and that includes free shipping when you use the code Gays reading at checkout@aardvarkbookclub.com. It is such a good deal. They have such great selections of books and I'm a big fan of theirs. Overall social media follow. They're great on social media. Um, but anyway, the world is crumbling around us. Happy Tuesday. Wherever you are coming from, whatever day of the week you are listening to this. I hope things are good in your neck of the woods in your world. Can you tell I'm a little punch drunk? It's true. But enjoy my conversation with Katie Kitamura and Nathan Lee Graham,

Jason Blitman: 3:10

Where are you? Is this looks so gorgeous, this little background behind you,

Katie Kitamura: 3:14

just, this is my, this is just the office. Yeah. It's very messy. Yours is much, much

Jason Blitman: 3:21

mine is almost too stark.

Katie Kitamura: 3:23

Do you think? I think it's very,

Jason Blitman: 3:25

I mean, so my bookcases are, didn't fit behind the little couch that I have here. So like I, the books behind you, it's very

Katie Kitamura: 3:31

I feel you. I feel like you're very 10 out of 10 on Room. Room Raider. Is that what it's called? I think it, yeah. You've got, you have the, is that what it's called? What is it called? It's not called Room

Jason Blitman: 3:41

I've never watched room Raiders, but I, I like understand the context.

Katie Kitamura: 3:47

I can't, it was a kind of Zoom thing, right? That they would, they would find people zoom backdrops and they would rate them, I can't remember what it's called. Anyway, I think you would do very well in that

Jason Blitman: 3:56

Thank you. I thought room Raiders was a thing where like. It was a dating show and parents would go into the rooms of the person that they were on a date with or that they, that the, that their kid like was gonna go on a date with and like, looked at the room to decide whether or not they should go on a

Katie Kitamura: 4:14

this real or is this something you invented?

Jason Blitman: 4:16

am 99.99, 9% sure this is real.

Katie Kitamura: 4:21

Because if it's not real, I feel like you need to copyright it.

Jason Blitman: 4:26

No, I think it was on like MTV or something. There was, it was a terrible,

Katie Kitamura: 4:29

Oh, oh, I, I just meant the, the Zoom, it wasn't called room Raiders. I don't know what it was called. It was something like they would look at the, your, your zoom backdrop and you would get like, yeah, they would say like, plant is good, symmetry is good, color is good. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 4:43

Um, I appreciate that. You too though. You too. There's, it's very writerly. I appreciate that. It's not pristine,

Katie Kitamura: 4:52

it's really not pristine.

Jason Blitman: 4:54

but that gives you a, a very like earthy vibe. I. Ugh. And your tea, I literally said earthy vibe. And you picked up your tea

Katie Kitamura: 5:02

I know, I know. My imagining it suddenly became like mushroom tea or something like that. As you, as you said that

Jason Blitman: 5:08

Yes. And then you're gonna read the leaves. At the end of this conversation, we're gonna talk about our futures.

Katie Kitamura: 5:17

I didn't know that's what, that's what this podcast was for. I'm so It's readings and

Jason Blitman: 5:23

Katie, welcome this. That's all this is. Did you not know? Were you not prepared?

Katie Kitamura: 5:29

well, yes.

Jason Blitman: 5:32

Also my background, I was, my background is in theater

Katie Kitamura: 5:36

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 5:37

and I was a casting director for a minute, so I have literally seen thousands of auditions. So the, the word audition is very triggering to me.

Katie Kitamura: 5:49

I was gonna say, how was, how was, how was that?

Jason Blitman: 5:53

Have you ever sat in on one, like in prep for this book?

Katie Kitamura: 5:56

I had, a lot of friends who were, when I first moved to New York in kind of 2009, 2010, a lot of my friends were working in theater in kind of off, I think it's off, off Broadway is, is a technical designation. So they were in these, in these tiny, you know, the plays were being put on in these tiny theaters. And, and it wa it was kind of great. And then, and then, you know, we're all older and I think, you know, some of them have moved onto to other things, but a lot of them have kind of slowly moved up. They're now the establishment, they're now, now their plays are on Broadway. And there it's a kind of, yeah, it's the whole kind, the kind of whole arc of, of the career has happened, um, for a lot of my friends over the last 15 years or so. So it's been interesting, interesting to see. It was, you know, I, I. Have in the past done a lot of research for my books, but this one I think I pulled mostly from kind of slightly passive knowledge from that period of

Jason Blitman: 6:53

Interesting. Um, okay. What is your audition? What is your elevator pitch for

Katie Kitamura: 7:02

this book.

Jason Blitman: 7:04

Without, you could, it could be like a sentence. We don't want to give anything away.

Katie Kitamura: 7:08

Oh, a sentence is harder than like a

Jason Blitman: 7:11

I know. No, you, no. We don't want a paragraph.

Katie Kitamura: 7:13

Oh, we don't wanna, okay.

Jason Blitman: 7:14

two sentences.

Katie Kitamura: 7:16

My once in this elevator pitch would be a, a woman who's in the middle of her life has her life upended when a stranger comes and tells her he believes he is her son.

Jason Blitman: 7:27

Yes. That's all we need.

Katie Kitamura: 7:28

Really? Okay.

Jason Blitman: 7:29

That is all we need. And when I tell you I have a. You're gonna see me blowing up the comment sections of all of these articles getting written about you.'cause I'm like, y'all are spoiling this book. Come on listeners. Don't read anything about this book. Before you go into it, just take this one sentence and dive in.

Katie Kitamura: 7:52

It's interesting'cause I've always written books where I've thought, you know, I've always said I don't believe in spoilers. You know, my books aren't that reliant on plot in general. Um, you know, you can find out what happens at the end of the, with this book, it's a little different. I, I think, I think the reading experiences may be different if you know what happens,

Jason Blitman: 8:11

Yes.

Katie Kitamura: 8:12

which is not a event, but is a kind of

Jason Blitman: 8:14

Uh, right, right. It is not about plot. It's about sort of structure and sort of how things lay out and play out, which I guess is like somewhat plot, but it's so funny because I was going back through my notes as I wrote in them and I was like, oh, now that I know how this ended, this question's irrelevant. This question's irrelevant. This question's relevant.

Katie Kitamura: 8:35

I wanna know what the questions are.

Jason Blitman: 8:40

I just unplugged my headphones. Oh my God. I was so aggressive about that. Um, what were some of them? I don't know. I can, I'll go back and I'll, I'll, I'll look at them and I'll DM them to you.

Katie Kitamura: 8:56

That sounds

Jason Blitman: 8:56

Um, but what's so interesting is you, you plotted out the whole book for us without us realizing it as we went along. The book has been referred to as a Mobius strip of a novel. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Can you explain what that means?

Katie Kitamura: 9:16

Yeah, I, um, it's interesting. I, I feel like all, a lot of the, uh, metaphors that I reach for people have reached for, but I think that I reach for in particular, are actually children's. Games. So like, you know, the, the thing where you look at a illustration and you could see a rabbit or you could see a duck. Do you know this? Do you know this one? It's been, look, I feel it's a little bit like that. It's a bit of a war shark block of a, of a novel and that people see very, very different things in it often, depending on maybe their own preoccupations. A a little bit maybe. I dunno. Um, but, you know, I, the book is split into two parts that are

Jason Blitman: 10:03

That you're allowed to say

Katie Kitamura: 10:04

Yeah. And, and that are kind of irreconcilable in some way, right? Like, if one is true, the second can not, cannot be true. And I think the way in which for me it works like a media strip, is that you can either believe the first half is a stable reality and the second half is a kind of fantasy projection of the narrator. Or you could read the book as the second half. Is the reality. And the first half is a kind of suppressed, cleaned up version of something that has happened between the three central characters. And so I, I think, I don't know if it, maybe, maybe a strip isn't the right image, but it's just kind of, there are two different ways of reading the book. I thought a lot about the films of David Lynch when I was writing this book, like Lost Highway on Mulholland Drive. And I think in a lot of ways you go into those films and you don't know exactly what's happening. And that is,

Jason Blitman: 10:57

Mm-hmm.

Katie Kitamura: 10:57

how you meant to experience'em. So it's not necessarily critical for me that the every reader kind of reads a book and says, ah, this is what it's doing. But at the same time, I think I needed to have a roles, a set of roles and a structure in place.'cause I think if you become, like anything goes and it's a little bit, a little bit too much freedom for me. Is it right.

Jason Blitman: 11:19

Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. There there was one, there's one question in particular that I have and feel that I will ask you when we're not recording, but I, I do feel like it, it quote unquote gives something away sort of holistically, but we'll get to that later. okay. The action of the book, let's say at the, in part one is really set into motion by a small courtesy. When a stranger holds open a door for our unnamed narrator and that sort of like decided for her, the doors open and she's sort of like, well, I guess I'm going in'cause the door is open for me. And that really changes the path.

Katie Kitamura: 11:59

Yes, yes.

Jason Blitman: 12:00

For the story. Have, do you have a moment like that in your life that you can, that comes to mind where you're like, oh, this one little thing really set things into motion for me?

Katie Kitamura: 12:10

I'm really fascinated by it. Moments where you acquiesced his a situation out of courtesy, there's a lot of different circumstances in which we are pressured into behaving a certain way because of certain social rules and, and sometimes they're catastrophically stupid. So this is one that I will give where I was in a, I was in a taxi, it was a very, very early morning taxi ride to the airport, I think in Miami. I'm not exactly sure. And I realized that my driver was falling asleep and we were on the freeway. And I literally thought, is it rude? I thought, is it rude of me to tell him he's asleep as we drive 70 miles down, down the, you know, and, and, and I mean, I, I did and I'm

Jason Blitman: 12:52

Right. Well,

Katie Kitamura: 12:53

I and everything. And he woke up and he kind of like, but, but the fact that even for a moment I would be like, is that, should I

Jason Blitman: 13:02

Right. Is it impolite for you to

Katie Kitamura: 13:04

I say something is, is a kind of ridiculous reaction to have in that situation, which is a very, very extreme version of it, but it's something very similar happens to her in the scene where somebody opens the door, she's hesitating, should I go in and, and see this young man who is a kind of troubling character to her in a lot of ways. She's not really sure if she wants to have any kind of relationship with them. Somebody opens the door and kind of nods her in and then in response to that social cue, she obeys and she goes inside and a lot of the book is she's doing things because she thinks they're expected of her. Whether that is kind of performing the part of being a wife or being a mother or being an artist or what, whatever it is. There's of often she's kind of performing versions to expectation and, and it's, I suppose in a lot of ways in the novel it's of course specific to her career and the, and the character as she's. Been written by me, many people have experienced some version of that I, I imagine in their life where, you know, courtesy has kind of compelled them to behave in ways that aren't necessarily either to their best interests or or to what they even want to do.

Jason Blitman: 14:16

Yeah, well that, but also just like what happens when you give into it. Like if someone holds a door open for you and you say, no, no, no, you first go ahead and they walk in and a bucket of water spills on them. Right? Like that could have been you. Right? So it just like,

Katie Kitamura: 14:35

yeah, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 14:35

and that changed that. That's a completely different set of circumstances than what would've happened if the tables were turned,

Katie Kitamura: 14:41

yes.

Jason Blitman: 14:42

you know?

Katie Kitamura: 14:42

I mean, the novel is a little bit of a kind of sliding doors. Novel in, in some ways. And so they're always like that, that moment at the beginning where like, none of this would've happened if I hadn't gone in, in that door. There's a little bit of a, a kind of element of of, of that.

Jason Blitman: 14:57

Yeah. I have to say, this literally comes up in so many episodes, in so many conversations. As a culture, we need a new reference point. I think the movie probably has like a 70% on Rotten Tomatoes. Like, let's, let's call it an audition moment. Let's move it, let's,

Katie Kitamura: 15:16

that's,

Jason Blitman: 15:17

it's like more succinct. It sounds more interesting.

Katie Kitamura: 15:21

that's very nice of

Jason Blitman: 15:22

So funny. Okay. There's a big question of, speaking of courtesy, um, our narrator was once an expert at balancing the demands of courtesy and the demands of expectations.

Katie Kitamura: 15:34

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 15:36

Is that true for you? Do you have advice on how to balance those things?

Katie Kitamura: 15:42

I mean, I think in the particular context she's thinking about is of her. So, so the aging of this character was quite specific for me. Um, she's 49. In fact, every time I, I, I, I checked, you know, I checked in several times with various, um, actor friends of mine and, and really the kind of issue that came up the most was her age of what would be the accurate, like in this very narrow kind of gap between 45 and 50, there was a lot of opinion on exactly where in that gap the character would fall. Um, which I think has to do maybe with a kind of social or cultural anxiety about middle age, about female desirability or sexuality in that, in that kind of little window. So, So she's kind of looking back on her life as a, as a younger woman and remembering all the moments in which she would have to kind of temper her interactions in particular with other, with with male characters, with males, with men. Not male care, not male. She wouldn't think of them as male characters.

Jason Blitman: 16:52

or, or maybe she would

Katie Kitamura: 16:54

Or maybe she would,

Jason Blitman: 16:55

Well, but that's actually what's so interesting about it, right? Like the male characters that inhabit the world around

Katie Kitamura: 17:01

yes, yes. No, that's true. That's true. I mean, it was, somebody pointed out to me, um, that both the kind of male characters who are in her closest to her in her family orbit are both writers in the end. Um, but I think a lot of that has to do with kind of navigating the kind of, um, stage when there is, if there is some kind of undercurrent of sexual. Implication between two people. What are the costs of opening that door? What are the costs of keeping that door closed? How do you navigate that? And so she, she thinks of herself as someone who was once upon a time, very, very good at that. And someone who, once upon a time did that quite a lot and is, is now kind of moving to a different period of life. And she's looking at her this much younger man and, and thinking about how he is a person who has, he is not quite learned how to navigate that particular dynamic.

Jason Blitman: 18:00

Yeah, it's interesting thinking about it in a sexual tension sort of way, you know, because I think at different points in your life, you can, the idea of courtesy versus expectation can be, I don't know, just different, right? Like, uh, a barber telling you that your hair looks good versus what their cut actually is. Like you expect it to then look good after. I don't know, like it's such a silly thing to think about, but, but knowing that a woman perhaps might put her hand on a man's shoulder as a courtesy balances out the expectation of him wanting to have a sexual

Katie Kitamura: 18:42

right, right, right.

Jason Blitman: 18:44

Um, yeah. I was just like thinking about other sort of less frankly intimidating situations that people could find themselves in. which leads me to another piece of the book, which is about the imbalance of want.

Katie Kitamura: 18:59

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 18:59

Which I found find super interesting, just like two people who want the same thing, can't generate the same sort of intensity as two people who want different or opposing things.

Katie Kitamura: 19:09

Yeah. I think that's a dynamic that in my fiction, I've, I've looked at. A fair amount. And I've generally looked at it in the relationships between couples and particularly couples, either at the start of, very much at the start of their relationship, which is, which is, um, turns up quite a lot in, in my last book, intimacies, but also at the end of their relationship, which is kind of where, um, a book I wrote called A Separation is situated. I think in this novel it's, it is there between the couple, but it's really the married couple that it's at, that's at the heart of the novel, but it's, it's also really primarily between these characters and a younger man who enters their life, whose own desires are quite opaque to them, I think. And so in a lot of ways they're trying to work out what they want of each other. They're not entirely sure what they want of him either. And it kind of creates this instability where, you know, they definitely don't want the same thing necessarily, but then they do. End up for a period, I would say in the second half of the book, kind of colluding it in, in this kind of shared desire where for a moment it's kind of mutually, they want the same thing and then that dissipates quite quickly.

Jason Blitman: 20:25

Yeah, I know. It's like, it's so funny to talk about this book in a, in a like loosey goosey, amorphous sort of way.

Katie Kitamura: 20:35

I mean, we could, we could,

Jason Blitman: 20:37

No,

Katie Kitamura: 20:37

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:39

no. We're keeping it loosey goosey, Katie. okay. This is important. The Xavier.

Katie Kitamura: 20:49

up straight now.

Jason Blitman: 20:49

I know. Yeah, me too. in the, in part one at a restaurant orders a hamburger and fries and in part two at a restaurant orders hamburger and fries. He like, clearly that is his thing no matter where he is. Do you, what is that, what is that for you?

Katie Kitamura: 21:04

You know, I, I, so as the two halves of the book are kind of in different realities.

Jason Blitman: 21:11

What is your order?

Katie Kitamura: 21:12

oh my order. Oh my order. I see. I thought you meant like why or why the obsession

Jason Blitman: 21:17

No, no,

Katie Kitamura: 21:19

I would totally

Jason Blitman: 21:20

Literally when you go to a restaurant, if you're, what is your always go to, no matter what state of the world you're in.

Katie Kitamura: 21:26

my always go-to order is if they have it, uh, like a friese salad, like a salad of some kind french fries and sparkling water.

Jason Blitman: 21:40

A salad and french fries.

Katie Kitamura: 21:43

And sparkling water

Jason Blitman: 21:44

the dichotomy. We love the yin and the yang.

Katie Kitamura: 21:48

And if I go like to a bar or something, because I am, I'm allergic to alcohol, so I can't drink. If I go to a bar, my order is if they have food, french fries and sparkling water. So it's the same wherever I am. And if, if I'm in a restaurant, I'll then add something else. What I really want to eat is french fries, but I feel like you can't go to, you know, there's people who are, have to make a living off of your order. And I also don't drink, which is already terrible for, for your server. So, you know, I, I try to add bolt things on.

Jason Blitman: 22:20

The way that you lit up when you were talking about french fries do. Okay. What is the, what is your fry of choice

Katie Kitamura: 22:27

oh, you know,

Jason Blitman: 22:28

the different variations?

Katie Kitamura: 22:29

the, it's shoes shoestring, like

Jason Blitman: 22:32

Oh, interesting. Interesting.

Katie Kitamura: 22:35

Kind of crispy. So I'm not a fan of the wedges.

Jason Blitman: 22:41

Yeah, the wedge or the like steak fries, the super thick ones. Um, the, the fries that sort of, they're, they look, they feel like they have like a seasoning on them, like a texture. Those are my go-to. I love

Katie Kitamura: 22:56

what do you mean a texture?

Jason Blitman: 22:58

Mm. It's not quite like, maybe it's like extra breading on the fried portion. Do you know what I mean?

Katie Kitamura: 23:04

Like they're almost double fried

Jason Blitman: 23:05

Almost double fried. Yeah,

Katie Kitamura: 23:07

I know, I know. The ones you mean. You know, I think my, I, I think in my heart the fries I love are McDonald's french fries.

Jason Blitman: 23:15

Oh, just like the simple,

Katie Kitamura: 23:18

I, I want the kind of restaurant version of that.

Jason Blitman: 23:20

Yeah. And I think for me, I want the restaurant version of Burger King Fries.

Katie Kitamura: 23:25

Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Or Carl's do, did you grow up near Carl's Jr. Was that just a Cal? I grew up in California.

Jason Blitman: 23:32

I live in California now. I should, and I think I live near one. I should go get their fries. Is that what you're telling me? Should I go get their fries after this?

Katie Kitamura: 23:40

I think Carls Jr. Had that kind of like slightly textured exterior as I recall.

Jason Blitman: 23:47

I've never had them, but

Katie Kitamura: 23:48

But you have, you have Carls Jr. You,

Jason Blitman: 23:50

I think I do. Yeah.

Katie Kitamura: 23:52

I may, I hope I'm not misremembering.

Jason Blitman: 23:54

That's okay. I'm not really a fast food person, but for this, it's worth,

Katie Kitamura: 23:57

no. I mean, I, I no longer am, but I, you know, I was in my, in my youth.

Jason Blitman: 24:02

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, this was important. I love a waffle fry.

Katie Kitamura: 24:07

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 24:08

Oh,

Katie Kitamura: 24:14

I mean, I should because it, the texture effect is very similar to a shoestring fry, but

Jason Blitman: 24:19

I listen. Anyone who is just listening to this has to go watch the YouTube. For, for of this conversation for Katie's face. When I said wobble fry,

Katie Kitamura: 24:32

What did I.

Jason Blitman: 24:34

I dunno, but you were offended.

Katie Kitamura: 24:42

I mean my, my hierarchy of New York restaurants, some of which kind of little kind of altered versions of them appear in the book, but is is is their french fries.

Jason Blitman: 24:53

What's your favorite fry in New York City?

Katie Kitamura: 24:55

ion

Jason Blitman: 24:56

Wait, where's that?

Katie Kitamura: 24:57

It's in Tribeca. They just have great fries. That's, I mean, I, I, it is, they're very, very, very good. And so when I was writing the book, when I was, even though that, that restaurant is not in Tribeca, it's in another, it's in another, uh, it's in the financial district. My head, my mental space just kept drifting towards the OD N and its french fries.

Jason Blitman: 25:18

interesting. Wait, have I ever been there?

Katie Kitamura: 25:21

I'm sure you maybe

Jason Blitman: 25:22

I feel like the. Outside is somewhere living in my mind. I could talk about fries all

Katie Kitamura: 25:28

no, me too. It's, it's as you, as you, you touched upon my great passion.

Jason Blitman: 25:32

Anyway, I look forward, we could go, like, we could do a fried tour. No, no, no, no. Just fried potatoes. We could do like a sampling.

Katie Kitamura: 25:44

that would be, that would be so much fun.

Jason Blitman: 25:48

I was talking to someone recently about how they had food at a book event and I was like, oh, I've done so many in-person book events and not a single one of them has had food and I. I'm gonna riot, so I'm gonna tell your publicist that you need to have fries at your food, at your book events. You know what, I know that you're doing an event with Raquan who was also a guest on gay's reading. I'm gonna tell her she needs to, at your event, you guys,

Katie Kitamura: 26:16

oh my gosh. I mean, yeah, I, I, I kind of wanted to ask her advice on kimchi,'cause I think she knows a lot about. The best kimchi

Jason Blitman: 26:25

Interesting. Oh my. We can, um, so you're, you're gonna write a food blog. That's where we've decided,

Katie Kitamura: 26:34

When people say, what's next, I'll say, I'm launching my food substack about french fries.

Jason Blitman: 26:40

Katie, I would subscribe. Don't even joke about it. Um, okay. This is, it's, it, this is an interesting segue into a piece of the book that I also wanna talk to you about, uh, voyeurism and observation. That's so much of what this book is about. And, you know, I think you or my listeners might be like, how is that related to you talking about french fries? The idea of

Katie Kitamura: 27:05

yeah. This.

Jason Blitman: 27:09

listen, I have a degree in theater, I could connect any dots you want. Um, I think just the idea of like. What it means that you like shoestring fries and I like textured fries. Like that is an interesting observation that like that says different things about each of us, and we could sort of like unpack from there. That was the connection in my brain. Is it true for you as a writer? Are you, are you a vo? Are you a big observer?

Katie Kitamura: 27:42

It's interesting because I, um, when I'm not in the middle of writing a book, I think I'm an okay obs observer. I, I definitely like to, you know, imagine as I go through the world, when I'm really inside a book, it's like the world of the book takes over and that's all I see. So when I'm kind of deep inside a book, I'll be walking with my family and they'll be like, did you see that? Extraordinary thing, whatever it was. And I'm, I'm always like, I missed it. I missed it. I, you know. Yeah. I'm, I'm never kind of apprehending it. Um,

Jason Blitman: 28:15

interesting. I would've thought it was the other way around.

Katie Kitamura: 28:19

Oh, really? Like, like your si senses become heightened when

Jason Blitman: 28:22

Right, because you're writing, so it's like what can you sort of devour to put

Katie Kitamura: 28:26

Yeah. I mean, I think when the, a book is going well, almost everything seems to fall into it in an almost magical way. Like, you look around and something will happen and you'd be like, oh yeah, that can use that. And everything just kind of falls into place. I can't quite put my finger on why, how to express it, but it's a little bit like the entire world conspires to make the book with you in, in some way. I mean, I think, I do feel when a book is going, I. Well, a kind of like heightened sensitivity. Absolutely. But I feel that really only when I'm writing, so when I sit down to write and I kind of get into the scene, then I feel like you know, almost like I can, I got a really terrible, I'm gonna say it anyway, but I, it's, it's kind of like that, um, you know, like, you know when Keanu reuses like in the Matrix and all of a sudden everything slows down. He's like, whoa, that's actually, that's, that's what it kind of feels a little bit like, everything feels quite slow. And like you can be quite deliberate and you can move through it and, you know, your senses are super sharp and then, and then it, and then it goes,

Jason Blitman: 29:34

Well, so what I'm hearing is that observation skills are very keen in an imaginary world.

Katie Kitamura: 29:40

yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 29:41

Which is, that's super cool. You know, like you could sort of transport yourself into the space and see it so clearly. And when you're walking around the nor the real world, while you might be missing sort of the big, crazy thing that your family's pointing out to you, what you are seeing are the things that, that are, uh, saying. I wanna fold into your book.

Katie Kitamura: 30:04

I think, I think I, I sometimes will see something and it just touches a nerve in some way, and then it'll, and it'll be something that's really not interesting to anybody else. And then I think my brain obsessively circles around that thing. And it could be something really, really tiny, like the way somebody's holding their bag or, or even less than that. But it, it will stay with me in, in some way. So I kind of let those things come to me as much as possible. I mean, I never, I, I've never been somebody who has a notebook, for example. I've never.

Jason Blitman: 30:39

Oh.

Katie Kitamura: 30:40

Yeah, I've never, I've never kept a journal. I've never journaled in any way. I've never, I don't really make notes. I mean, I make notes, but they're usually like structure notes or they'll be like, chapter seven, fix

Jason Blitman: 30:53

Right. I basically do nothing. I sit at my computer and a fabulous book comes out.

Katie Kitamura: 31:01

But like I, you know, I've never, I've never had like a notebook, you know, my husband's has, has notebooks and he has ideas and thoughts that he writes down in his notebooks. And that's just never been the way I've really worked. I've always thought of it more as a kind of immersion that happens just when I'm at my laptop. And, you know, I, I, I love, I love being in the space of a book. I really do. Like I, I I, I, I, I feel in, in my imagination, it's almost a physical space that I can go into and it is a place where I feel completely. Free and very content. Um, it's everything else that's, that's a difficulty.

Jason Blitman: 31:47

Well, it's interesting that one of the, one of the only examples you gave is noticing the way someone holds their bag.

Katie Kitamura: 31:55

Right.

Jason Blitman: 31:55

such a specific, uh, physical action. And in the book there's like an an unsaid conversation of nurture versus nature. Uh, nurture is maybe even the wrong word, I would almost say like nature versus learned behavior,

Katie Kitamura: 32:13

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 32:14

you know? And if you see someone holding their bag. In a way that, let's say, is more ergonomic than you've ever thought before. And you start to try doing that yourself, and you're like, oh, this actually, this doesn't hurt my back the way that I'm used to holding my bag. There is that sort of element in the book and, and it made me think about are we ever our own selves or are we, are, are our habits from our surroundings and what society puts on us? Like, is that,

Katie Kitamura: 32:46

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 32:46

it was just a question for myself as I was reading the book. What, what do you think?

Katie Kitamura: 32:50

I mean, I think I, I think that's completely what I was, thank you for saying that.'cause that's kind of a, a lot of what I was hoping to think about in the book is that the characters, all, all of them, I would say not just the central character, you know, they participate in all these rituals and behaviors that are learned, behaviors that are part of what. You know, uh, guarantees is the wrong word, but it's part of what builds a kinda stable reality in life for them, a stable set of relationships. And then they kind of like, they start to wear thin in patches and they start to get a little bit rickety and they start to see that some of these are artificial in some way and that this kind of, you know, what you call nature, but this kind of like it or this, this subconscious bubbles up and it really ru pushes up against that. And so, you know, the central character isn't actor, although there's never any scene, you know, you never see her acting in any way, but she has a kind of attunement to how people manipulate their bodies or their mannerisms, or how that's a tool that people can use. And at one point, this young man who has said to her, I think I'm your child and she believes this to be impossible. In the first half of the book, she notices that he seems to have imitated these small gestures of her, and it's like a really, it's, it's like a moment of uncannyness for her where something of hers has been taken and is being worn by somebody else in some way. So I think that kind of hyper attunement to movement, to gesture to how it's learned, and we all, we all, you know, very little of what we do is purely natural. Most of what we do is because we've learned how to do that. You know, if you have children, you see that very, very clearly. The process of growing up is, is acquiring a set of learned behaviors that allow you to exist in the world and allow people to relate to you in a, in a normal way. I think all of the characters in the novel have their sets of learned behaviors and then they start to. Crumble. I mean, I guess the other thing I would say is that, I mean, you mentioned the hamburger and fries and the, the other food item that's quite important in the book is, is these pastries, which the characters are kind of eating again and again and again. And which I kind of wanted to take an almost surreal quality to them. Um, but the, the, the, the pastries are, are part of like a kind of breakfast morning ritual that the, that the married couple have. And it's one that is simultaneously, you know, seems very benign. It's like a characters who have their moment to check in with each other, and that's part of what makes him a kind of happily married couple. But beneath that, it, it's, it's got a much more, I don't know if toxic is too strong of a war, but there's much more of a struggle in history there. The breakfasts are something that the husband at a point when the central character has

Jason Blitman: 35:42

girl, stop giving it away.

Katie Kitamura: 35:45

But he kind of like

Jason Blitman: 35:46

matter why. They just have the ritual.

Katie Kitamura: 35:48

the husband. The husband, yeah. Kind of at a moment when he's trying to kind of, um, consolidate their relationship, let's say. Yeah. He, he kind of says, let's do this and let's do it every single morning, forever. And so it's, it's at once a kind of source of comfort and it, but it's also, and it's that one to kind of learn behavior that is, that is part of the kind of texture of their married life. And then it's also this kind of expression of, of a want and of a, of a kind of, um, demand on the part of the husband.

Jason Blitman: 36:15

Which like also circles back to the conversation about courtesy versus

Katie Kitamura: 36:19

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Jason Blitman: 36:21

You know, it is expected, but it's a courtesy, but it's expected. But what if I don't want to? Yeah.

Katie Kitamura: 36:27

yes.

Jason Blitman: 36:27

it was overwhelming thinking about what is put onto us

Katie Kitamura: 36:33

Right,

Jason Blitman: 36:34

from, from marketers,

Katie Kitamura: 36:37

right.

Jason Blitman: 36:38

from social media algorithms,

Katie Kitamura: 36:41

it's become quite relentless in a lot of ways. I mean, I, I think I kind of have, I feel a little kind of torn because on, on the one hand, you know, clearly it's, it's, it's terrifying and, and alarming the way we kind of have these set of roles that we willingly perform. And, and I think I, I do think you're right with kind of social media, it is just this kind of sense that this performance is perpetual. Um, and that there's some kind of gap between the reality on social media and the, the reality reality of, of, of the individuals. At the same time, I think if you, if you do not know or unable to perform those. Roles in some way, then that means a kind of catastrophic break with social life in some way. Like, like that those learned behaviors are part of what lets us survive. It's part of what lets us build relationships with other people. I think without them we would be under immense psychological pressure. I think that, I think that's means to not kind of exist properly in, in the world in some way. So, in a way I feel like, you know, the book is, is kind of, of course critiquing that constant performance and playing to expectation and the kind of weight that that puts. But on the other hand, it's also saying that's how, I mean that the, the couple in the middle of it, they have a, they have a long and successful marriage and part of that is because they have agreed to play these parts for each other.

Jason Blitman: 38:18

Yeah. Which is really overwhelming. Sort of in a big picture sort of way. Well, well, no, it's overwhelming because thinking about it sort of existentially uh, uh, breaking down in audition

Katie Kitamura: 38:33

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 38:34

It is vulnerable.

Katie Kitamura: 38:37

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 38:37

It is intimate. I have, uh, so my job was working for a company that produced shows that toured around the country for kids that professional adults were in. And most of the people that were in these shows were newly graduated college students. So a lot of the auditions that I was seeing were 22 year olds, fresh out of college from some of the best musical theater schools in the country. And I'm watching these young people audition and first of all, an, you know, you're, you really are, are showcasing this intimate side of you to a, a room that is designed to judge you. Um, but also I've seen people audition. Who were I? Absolutely incredible. Some of the most talented people I've ever seen. And for one reason or another, the job wasn't right for them. And you know, now they're living in Tucson making pottery and

Katie Kitamura: 39:37

sounds not bad.

Jason Blitman: 39:39

but No, no, no. Which sounds not bad, however, but, right. Which is great. But there's something very interesting about the, the performance element of it.

Katie Kitamura: 39:47

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 39:48

It's vulnerable. It's intimate, but it's also ephemeral.

Katie Kitamura: 39:52

Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, I think when I was thinking about the title, you know, as you know, there are no, strictly speaking, there are no auditions in like, there are no. Theater auditions in the novel, but the entire novel is characters auditioning for each other to play certain parts in their lives. So it is, it is exactly all of that kind of vulnerability and all of that intimacy, but like almost times 10.'cause it's your, it's your life. And I think that is what happens. You know, we, I mean, what, that's what dating is, is a terrible way. But like, even with friendships or all, all, all of this is, it's a, you're kind of being, you are incredibly exposed and you're saying to somebody, do you want me to be this for you for a long time? And they might say yes, or they might say you're great, but no. And um, and it was, and it's, I I love, but I loved what you said about it being ephemeral because that's, that's really, I think that's something I'm really interested in general in fiction, is these kind of moments of. Alchemy where as you say, it's like intimate and it's vulnerable and it's can, they can be brilliant and it can be real, and it can be all, like, everything that you want from a piece of, of art. And then it just kind of goes away. And it's almost a magical space, whether it's a space of a theatrical stage or like in my previous novels that, you know, I've written about, international tribunals, and that's the kind of space of the courtroom. I've, I've written a novel that's set in the world of support. It's like the, the, the setting of like a ring. All of these spaces are these kind of magical spaces where something can happen that is authentic, that is completely real, but at the same time it has all the artifice of an audition. It is like ephemeral. There's a timestamp on it. You're doing this incredibly intimate thing for strangers. There are all these rules and stipulations and referees in the ring or judges in the whatever it is, you know. stage lights, all of it. You, and yet in that moment you hope, you touch upon something real and then it's, it's really gone. And that's the nature of so much art, I think in, in general. But the audition, the kind of, the vulnerability is even more than in simple performance. It is, it is. There's a kinda yes or no in that word.

Jason Blitman: 42:13

yeah.

Katie Kitamura: 42:14

Were you the one saying yes or no? Yes. Oh

Jason Blitman: 42:20

Right. Well, so, and, and that's part of the crazy thing, right? It's like that, okay, they're, they're now making pottery in Tucson and they're living a wonderful life. But I'm the only person that saw that in that room that day. And that's what I find so fascinating. And the fact that you were, that you were talking about, uh, these sort of perpetual performances, what is startling to me is that performances are ephemeral. And so does that mean that we're like performing until we die? Does that mean, you know, there then you, then I sort of fall down the existential crisis rabbit hole.

Katie Kitamura: 42:59

Don't, don't fall on the crisis. But I mean, it's interesting because you asked about voyeurism, and I think that has a lot to do with, with this idea of there's a kind of performance that you know is happening and then there's performance that you, it's a little bit more veil, but it's still happening in, in, in your life. I think that's why I, I love the idea of, I mean, I, I love voyeurs. I really always loved them. I mean, I really, some of my favorite films have voyeurs in

Jason Blitman: 43:28

You wave to him every morning out the window.

Katie Kitamura: 43:33

no in, in, but like, you know, the, um, yeah, yeah. But you know, Kyle McLaughlin in, in, in Blue Velvet. Um, Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo. There are so many great film moments when somebody is watching somebody, often a man is watching a woman, and it is, it feels unbelievably transgressive and frightening in some way. And, and yet that is, that, that it is a kind of, that is what, that is the closest that these films can come to representing what the audience is doing. You know, when, when you see Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo watching Kim Novak, that's, you know, you're made to confront the fact that that's what you're doing as well as an audience member, that that's your subjective position is, is this guy who is stalking and creepily watching, watching this woman, you know, who, who, as it turns out, knows that she's consciously performing a part for him.

Jason Blitman: 44:36

Right, right. And, and you're right. As the audience, you are equally, you are an equal participant. back to auditions for auditions and performances. I believe, and I think a lot of people would probably agree, even if they don't realize that the best performance, or something that makes the best performance is honesty.

Katie Kitamura: 45:00

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 45:01

Because when you are being true, when you're being real, when you're being authentic, whatever that means, under the circumstances, it's quote unquote believable.

Katie Kitamura: 45:11

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 45:12

And in turn, it's the best performance. So it is this crazy cycle of, it is a performance, but it's also honest because it's believable. But it's a performance, but it's an audition because you want approval.

Katie Kitamura: 45:27

Mm-hmm. I totally agree and I think it's. Something that it really fascinates me and, and I wrote a little, there's a little section of the book that is really, I think about on one level what you're talking about, which is, it's a little story about a, it's kinda sidebar a little story within this story the central character is remembering an actor that she agreed to work with who had done, turned in this kind of extraordinary performance of a character who's kind of lost in his life and, and is, is at sea and is trying to work his way back to kind of reconstituting his life. And then after she agrees to work with him, she's told that in fact he has dementia and he was unable to remember any of his lines. And so the reason he's kind of like looking so lost is'cause he's looking literally with a scrap of paper with, with his lines written on it and it kind of. Opens up this dilemma for her, where on the one hand it's too, the performance is extraordinary. And the reason it's extraordinary is because it's authentic, because it touches upon the real thing. But at the same time, knowing that it is actually the thing itself makes it almost unbearable to her. It's interesting to think about authenticity and performance because on some level I think we need the guardrails of knowing that it is artificial in some way in order to feel that, have access to that authenticity. Because if it were the thing itself, then that would be too much. That would be ethically so compromised.

Jason Blitman: 47:01

Yeah. I mean this just like, is that why we put on clothes every day? No, but I'm serious. Like we're literally not naked because we need the guardrails and like this is all artifice. It's literally, you know, handmade or factory made or whatever. Um, because otherwise it would just be too much to bear.

Katie Kitamura: 47:27

I mean, it's, it like, why do we care so much about clothes? Like what, you know, like fa like fashion, like why, why do we, why do I care so much about what I'm dressed in and, and what I look like? It, it, it, it's, why, why is it so hyper-specific? The kind of way people are, are dressed, which it often is, and it is all coded to certain identities that we're trying to present to the world. And, and why does that give us so much pleasure? But also why does it make us feel protected in some way? Right? So like, like if you're dressed in the way you want to be dressed and you feel good in your clothes, I, I think you feel armored. That's the link. Especially women often use this language, but they talk about feeling armored against the world. What is. Why does performing a role or why does slipping into a costume give you that sense of armoring, I think is is an interesting thing to think about.

Jason Blitman: 48:17

Well, and it's also interesting to think about like the character that you're playing,

Katie Kitamura: 48:24

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 48:26

a doctor wearing a lab coat,

Katie Kitamura: 48:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:30

you know, uh,

Katie Kitamura: 48:33

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:33

podcaster, wearing headphones. You know, like

Katie Kitamura: 48:36

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:37

there's, there's sort of this, it's it's expectation, but it's also.

Katie Kitamura: 48:44

I mean, it's authority. You know, you have your headphones, so therefore, you know what I mean? No, I mean, but you have like, all it's, it's, it's the apparatus that kind of, it, it kind of is, is, is meaningful, I would say, not only to the world at large, but also maybe to, to us as we're playing, playing these parts.

Jason Blitman: 49:06

Right. You know it's Right. So it's there. Is that like, are we always playing a part? Is it always performance? Do we ever have that moment of intimacy with ourself where we see something that's quote unquote true? But if a performance is so good, does that mean those are moments of honesty? Listen, we could go on and on and on all day, but also, so like, here's a big question. Is everything inevitable? I.

Katie Kitamura: 49:37

Oh, in life? No, don't that. No, don't say that.

Jason Blitman: 49:46

I, I didn't say anything. I just asked a question.

Katie Kitamura: 49:48

How do you mean?

Jason Blitman: 49:49

in the perpetual cycle of life

Katie Kitamura: 49:53

yes.

Jason Blitman: 49:54

are are things inevitable? Are, I mean, and maybe, maybe the answer is we all die, so

Katie Kitamura: 50:00

Yes. Yeah, I was

Jason Blitman: 50:01

like how we get there, it's sort of irrelevant.

Katie Kitamura: 50:03

I, yeah, I think death is, is despite, you know, the Silicon Valley folk who, who would, who, who I think are hoping it's not inevitable. I, I believe it remains inevitable. Um, uh, yeah, I guess that sense of a horizon is inevitable.

Jason Blitman: 50:25

I think the book in particular, especially going back through my notes from the beginning part of the book, I was like, oh, this ending was inevitable. Just like in life, the ending is inevitable. The next steps are inevitable, right? Like, it's sort of just the journey that we're on and that was a, it just, it was a big question that the book made me think about.

Katie Kitamura: 50:49

it was, it's, it's, I mean, it's interesting that you. You say that because I think I, I think one of the things that I, I hope to try to do in the, in the book was that when you reach the second part, there'd be things in the first part that would kinda make sense or that you would see in a different way and that would reformulate your experience of that, those first pages that would kind of bind it together in some way. And I think, I think when you're writing a a book, you, you need things to feel inevitable in, in some way. You need to feel like you are moving towards a destination that could not be any other way. I think obviously the reality is with any book and a million things could happen, but it's interesting inevitability in terms of art making or making writing something. I don't know if you experience it this way, but like when I. I start a piece of work, it's like always the best moment because it's, I feel like there's a limitless kind of plane and like it's, the book could occupy any of this. And then as you write, it gets, like, it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, and the field of play gets, gets necessarily as the thing becomes itself smaller until it's just a book and that's it. And, and then it does feel inevitable that you've been moving towards this destination where everything, you know, all this kind of freedom that you had and all of this possibility, which is in a way why I think everybody writes just becomes a finite narrative. And that is all it is. I think that's probably why in this book, I wanted to write a book that had more than one narrative possibility because I think that sense of closure is such a saddening one for me as a, as a writer. And I thought, what if you can write something where actually it feels like a continues to stay open?

Jason Blitman: 52:40

Yeah. Well it's so interesting'cause I think at first what you were talking about, it made me again jump back to expectations, you know,'cause it's the expectations of a reader is that the book ends somewhere.

Katie Kitamura: 52:55

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 52:56

So, so it is, so it is quote unquote inevitable, right? So it sort of does that thing, but also it is inevitable that yes, you have the blank page and how wonderful and exciting and, and optimistic as a creative person, but it is inevitable that it will be in the hands of a stranger who then gets to form their own

Katie Kitamura: 53:17

A hundred percent.

Jason Blitman: 53:18

which is like a lot. It's a lot,

Katie Kitamura: 53:22

yeah. And not only form their own opinions, but form the book.

Jason Blitman: 53:26

yeah. Right?

Katie Kitamura: 53:27

You know, I think I, I think with this book more than any other book I've written, it's, it's very open to interpretation. It's really a book that is being made by the reader as much as by me. And people have, I mean, it's, it's early days, but people have had very different understanding or interpretations of what's happening in the book. Um, which is what, what it's kind of designed to do. Um,

Jason Blitman: 53:52

I dunno if you're a good reads reader, but they have the good reads. Reviews have been cracking me

Katie Kitamura: 53:57

Oh, really? No. I, I can't look it. I

Jason Blitman: 53:59

Yeah, no, that's okay. But it's a, it's a prime example of the number of interpretations a book can have. Katie Kura, thank you so much for being here.

Katie Kitamura: 54:06

thank. This has been such a delight and I hope we can meet for,

Jason Blitman: 54:13

Oh, it is going to happen. okay. This episode is coming out, not today, but happy release day, mazel tub. I'm so excited for you.

Nathan Lee Graham: 54:23

It's so exciting.

Jason Blitman: 54:24

I diligently watched every episode.

Nathan Lee Graham: 54:26

You did. Oh, I love that. Did you enjoy it?

Jason Blitman: 54:30

I did well, and no one was forcing me to watch every episode I did it on because I wanted to.

Nathan Lee Graham: 54:36

This is a good thing.

Jason Blitman: 54:37

I know I'm, I, I came out of it with one of the most important questions that I think I need to start asking everybody.

Nathan Lee Graham: 54:45

Sure,

Jason Blitman: 54:46

I'm gonna come at you with it. Who will delete your search history when you die?

Nathan Lee Graham: 54:53

I'll do it. I'll do it just as I'm going, just as I'm going down.

Jason Blitman: 54:58

Because you can't trust anyone else to do it.

Nathan Lee Graham: 55:00

I'll do it just as I'm going down. The universe will allow me to have just, first of all, the universe is going to allow me to die in a very dramatic theatrical way, so it won't be fast. It will be with lots of pathos and drawn out. You know, very ctra Ophelia. It will be that. And so I'll have time to take my gnarled index finger and you know, steady myself

Jason Blitman: 55:32

Right, right.

Nathan Lee Graham: 55:33

over all of the devices and erase them. And then that final breath, delete and delete.

Jason Blitman: 55:42

Ugh, good for taking responsibility for your own actions.

Nathan Lee Graham: 55:47

And plus, if you want anything done right, you have to do it your damn self.

Jason Blitman: 55:50

100%. Now I'm like second guessing all of my thoughts and feelings about this. I need to rewrite the end of my story.

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:00

See

Jason Blitman: 56:01

I know. Do you have your final line? Are you ready?

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:04

my final line for my, uh, for my death.

Jason Blitman: 56:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like of life. You sound very prepared.

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:13

I know what it'll probably be. I do know what it'll probably be.

Jason Blitman: 56:18

You don't have to tell me. We'll read about it in the

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:20

I can tell you,

Jason Blitman: 56:22

I'm ready,

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:23

but I have to change clothes. That's it.

Jason Blitman: 56:33

Nathan. That is devastating.

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:39

Because that's all I do. All I do is change clothes.

Jason Blitman: 56:42

What do you think you will be wearing?

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:44

I don't know, but I, I'm sure.

Jason Blitman: 56:46

But you know, you'll have to change.

Nathan Lee Graham: 56:48

But I have to change clothes and then I'll die.

Jason Blitman: 56:51

Oh, how fabulous. And tragic, because you won't have time to do that because you'll be deleting your search history, right? Huh? All right. Well listen, I look forward to the movie adaptation.

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:06

you very much.

Jason Blitman: 57:07

I can't wait. My favorite fun fact to share with you is that I second acted Priscilla, I think four times.

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:21

What

Jason Blitman: 57:22

I know I saw it from beginning to end multiple times too, but I second act back in the day when you could second act a musical.

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:29

so you stole from me

Jason Blitman: 57:31

I, yeah, I know. I, this, I am, these are my reparations. I'm very sorry. Right.

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:38

Well, you

Jason Blitman: 57:40

tickets were, I was, no, no, no. I was filling your cup with applause because those seats were not filled. I was there. I was there for you. It was supporting

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:48

well, you know, um, I never saw the show because I never missed,

Jason Blitman: 57:54

rightfully so,

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:55

so,

Jason Blitman: 57:55

which means I saw you every single time I

Nathan Lee Graham: 57:57

yes, I never missed. Um, and, uh. All I've ever, all I've ever heard is that people felt good when they left the theater. So that's, that's a good thing.

Jason Blitman: 58:07

I know. I loved it. You know, that would be a good last line too.

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:10

Sure.

Jason Blitman: 58:11

missed.

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:12

I never missed, oh, that's good. Well, I want that on the tombstone.

Jason Blitman: 58:16

Oh, fabulous. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm gonna, I'm Chris, are you taking notes?

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:22

And I wanna be buried in PA and I wanna be buried in that famous, uh, cemetery in Paris so that people have a destination.

Jason Blitman: 58:31

oh, are there? I wonder if there are rules to get in there.

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:34

I am sure there are.

Jason Blitman: 58:36

We'll find. We'll find out, and we'll

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:38

Yeah, I mean, part of the,

Jason Blitman: 58:39

the day,

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:40

one of the rules is you have to be fabulous. So I check,

Jason Blitman: 58:45

Easy, easy. I love all your merch that you have on.

Nathan Lee Graham: 58:51

yes. I'm selling the show today. Well, it's a, it's a show day, so I thought, you know.

Jason Blitman: 58:56

The jacket, the shirt, the hat. Obsessed

Nathan Lee Graham: 59:00

be, and it's show day, so, you know, it's, I'm gonna take it right off, but it's still, it's like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a contract player at heart, so, you know, it's just, I, I, I'm always selling whatever product I'm in and, and the show, especially when I'm proud of it.

Jason Blitman: 59:16

Yeah. Yeah. Oh good. I love that. Um.

Nathan Lee Graham: 59:19

shy, if it was shy, I wouldn't give a shit. But, um, you know,

Jason Blitman: 59:22

I'm so excited that you're proud of it as you should be. It looked like you were all having such a fun time. I like, don't need to talk too much about it'cause I want everyone to just go watch it.

Nathan Lee Graham: 59:29

Yeah. Go watch

Jason Blitman: 59:30

Done

Nathan Lee Graham: 59:31

Binge, binge, binge.

Jason Blitman: 59:33

now on Hulu.

Nathan Lee Graham: 59:34

Yes. Binge all we can.

Jason Blitman: 59:37

Nathan Lee Graham, you are on my guest gay reader. I have to know what you're reading. You said you have four books sitting in front of you.

Nathan Lee Graham: 59:43

Presently, um, you know, I'm dyslexic, so I read scripts very fast. Um, but part of the reason I'm in the business is because, uh, my parents knew that I needed to constantly read and they gave me all these tools. And so, you know, being in show business, um, that was an immediate sort of like you have to read all the time and learn how to cold read and get beyond whatever your ailment was. So now my dyslexia, of course. Like I do with anything that seems negative, I turn it into a superpower, you know? So, uh, but I read books slowly because I really wanna sort of revel in the images and the metaphor metaphors and allegory. And I retain those images much longer because I read slower. So this is redundant, but I am currently reading Barbara Streisand's. Autobiography and I'm reading it and not listening to the audio book because there's always just a little bit more material when you read it. And, uh, like I said before, reading for me is, is um, is an exercise and a skill that I, I like to keep honing because of my dyslexia. I have mild dyslexia, but it's still there.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:58

it's still there.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:00:59

So that's what

Jason Blitman: 1:00:59

it's as though you knew what I was gonna complain about

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:01:02

Yeah. So that's what I'm reading currently.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:05

because the audio book is so good. But I respect your journey

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:01:08

I mean, you know, I can listen to her do it afterwards, but I wanna read, I wanna read the damn book and then Oh, oh, okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:17

I was gonna

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:01:17

I'm gonna be quiet.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:18

well, no, be quiet. The funniest part about the audio book is I listened on three X speed and she sounded normal.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:01:32

Yeah, I, I can't, I'm a very, I'm a tonal person as well, so there, there is some sort of, uh, I don't know if it's some sort of ism or schism or disease, but there are people who can't, who can't hear a certain tone

Jason Blitman: 1:01:52

Yeah.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:01:53

over a period of time. It starts to physically. Fuck with you. And I'm one of those people that tonally I can't, you know, and it's not Barbara Streisand, of course, I love her tone, but, um,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:06

I thought you were gonna say, Barbara Streisand falls in

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:02:08

yeah, no,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:08

no idea what she sounds like.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:02:10

she does not. But what I mean to say is, because I'm always constantly working with people too. I sort of don't need someone to be reading to me unless it's, you know, like yoga. So.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:22

Yeah. Fair. Okay.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:02:24

So it's great to, to have the book and I love having it in my hands, you know? Um, I am, you know, a middle-aged black queer person. Um, what, what would you like to talk about next?

Jason Blitman: 1:02:35

Tell me more of your books. You said you have four? I'm,

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:02:38

so after that. After that, I'm going to be reading The Prophets by Robert Jones Jr. Which I've had for a while. It's just that, you know, I work a lot, so I read more scripts than anything else. But my dear, dear friend Karen Chilton, who is a voiceover and audio books extraordinaire, award-winning voiceover artist, she actually read this book, so I might listen to her as well, uh, because she, but I love reading it, so I'm gonna read it and probably listen to her as well. I'm also,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:11

simultaneously. That's a good trick too.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:03:13

yes, I would love to do it, but then I start to get into my head about.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:17

Yeah. Uhhuh.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:03:18

Oh, you did that? Yeah. Um, Daisy Goodwin has she's a New York times bestselling author. She's written a lovely novel about Maria call called Diva. It's not too big, it's not too thick. that's what he said. And, uh, I, I, I can't write to read it'cause I love everything, all things Maria Kales. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:39

And that's the tattoo you have on your back.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:03:41

Sure. La Davina. Uh, and then my dear friend, Ross Rayborn has written a wonderful, uh, self-help book. I would say in that, that genre called Turning Inward, the practice of introversion for a calm, joyful, authentic life. Ross Rayburn,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:02

Oh.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:04:02

a delight.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:03

And you did say you are more of an introvert.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:04:07

Yes, I am. Which is weird because, um, you know, I, I have such a public, uh, job, but when I'm not doing that public job or expressing myself on screen or on stage, it's nice to just be alone so that you can recharge. Right. Um.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:26

I, when someone told me that being an introvert really means that you like take that recharging. Takes time by yourself and to, uh, recalibrate. And it's not about wanting to be alone, and it's not about being shy. I was like, oh, that makes so much more sense to me. You said your dyslexia doesn't really affect you when you read scripts or that you were able to read them fast. Why do you think that is?

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:04:49

Only because I practice and only because I have tools that, uh, help me along. And it does affect me. I am very aware that it happens, and it happens all the time where a word will switch or the letters will become jumbled. Um, it's just that. The way I highlight my script, the way I, I mark hate my, my script, and the amount of time that I spend getting it into my body. And then of course, when I turned 56 years

Jason Blitman: 1:05:19

10 years from

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:05:20

uh, no, please. Um,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:23

six years ago, how freaking dare you?

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:05:26

yes. I'm 56. I'll be 57 in September. Um, my.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:30

time from now.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:05:31

My, uh, my vision, my, uh, vision became blurry up, up close. Um, and my mother says that I have the best of all stigmatisms because to see far away is better. So you can run okay. If shit's going down, if shit's going down, you can run. And she said also for driving. And, uh, you know, uh, it's great because you can see this, you can read all the signs on the freeway and. You know, so I have the best stigmatism. I'm, I'm still, I'm still winning.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:02

Right.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:06:03

You know,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:04

I expect nothing less. You're gonna have the best of the things right now, I feel you. Um, okay. For anyone who's been living under a rock, can you tell us what mid-century modern is about? I.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:06:16

it's about chosen family. It's about a group of friends who are getting older. One of their friends dies and they, they decide on this whim. One of the friends decides on a whim that we all should come and live together because our lives suck in our own private spaces, so why not? Let's try it. What do we have to lose? And then we move in together until his, into his palatial estate in Palm Springs modeled after Dina Shor's home. And, uh, all the mayhem ensues. And it's just, it's just a fun, heartfelt time, you know? Um. You gotta love it. It's gonna make you feel good about yourself.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:55

Mm-hmm. How this is like such a. I don't wanna say dumb, but it is such a basic question, but because it looks like you're having so much fun, what was this experience like for you? It's very different than some of the other things you've done.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:07:10

Well, yeah. Um, it's like a culmination of everything I've done, isn't it? Uh, because

Jason Blitman: 1:07:16

And yet you, you're so at home per

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:07:19

Uh, well, because, because I'm ready for whatever this is and, um, you know, you meet the moment when it's, it's, it's uh, it's an embarrassment of riches actually, because when you're working with a bunch of people that you are already a fan of and then they reciprocate that by saying that they're a fan of yours as well, it's really a love fest and you get right to the work. So it's, what's so funny is, um. There was a question asked of us last night at the 92nd Street, why, um, do we crack up? Do we break up and, you know, during the tapings and you know, have to get back on track? And the answer really was no, because we're also, we're very serious about our comedy.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:04

You're like, I'm a professional. Dammit.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:08:07

and we all do. And because it's already so funny and we already sort of revel in the deliciousness of it, there's really no reason to crack up because, you know, uh, what we're trying to do with these things is, is so ridiculously fun already. There's no, there's really no reason to sort of have shenanigans beyond the shenanigans that we're actually doing. So, um. Yeah, it's just a blessing to have that kind of chemistry. It is unspoken. Part of it's because we're all from the theater, um, including the great late, uh, Linda Lavin and also, you know, it doesn't happen that often, so it has to be, it has to be said that this is rare when you actually love and like the people that you're working with. I'll see Matt and Nathan later today, and we'll have dinner and it'll be fun.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:59

That's so cute. I love that. and I don't think I realized how a, I needed. A sitcom.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:09:10

Mm-hmm. In a nostalgic way,

Jason Blitman: 1:09:13

Yes. And B, something that is so queer and isn't about being queer in the way that we've seen it presented before

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:09:26

well, we're just normal human beings.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:27

that. That's what I'm saying. How many times have you seen normal gay people on TV just living their life?

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:09:33

This is what we are. Yeah. And, and we're, and we're, uh, and, and it's generational and, I hesitate using the word normal because it's so bastardized, but what we, what we're saying about normal is that. We're not some sort of exotic creatures from another land. And you're, you're peering in. No, it's like anyone will love the show. If you love to laugh, you're gonna like the show. If you wanna feel good about yourself, you're gonna like the show. So we just happen to be queer.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:03

Well, and I mean, it's, it's not a coming out story. It's not about sexcapades. It's not, you know, it just, it's, it's no extreme. It is just living

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:10:12

just living. Just living. And it's so nice. You know, um, because with living, of course, you have the rollercoaster of life. So you're gonna have these wonderful, ridiculous moments, and then you're gonna have some tragic moments, you know, because that's what life is. And then you'll have some heartfelt moments. You'll have some, you know, scheming, jealousy moments. You're gonna have all of it. And that's what makes the show so great

Jason Blitman: 1:10:37

Yeah.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:10:38

because the wonderful writing.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:40

The show, so great. The, the, your, your final line of life is gonna be about your outfit,

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:10:46

Yes, of course

Jason Blitman: 1:10:47

I have to know, do you have a bespoke travel coat?

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:10:52

I do.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:55

Yes. Can you describe it for me? I wanna know everything about it.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:10:59

Well, um, I have more than one. See,

Jason Blitman: 1:11:05

How silly of me.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:11:07

I have a Paul

Jason Blitman: 1:11:08

so sorry.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:11:09

a Paul Smith, um, duster. Um, that is a divine microfiber. It is one of the best purchases I've ever made. It goes with everything. It can be dressed up, can be dressed down, you can fold it and roll it into a ball. It is the quintessential travel cloak. Um, it looks good. All seasons, you know, all seasons. And, um, there are four of them people. And, um.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:38

Four Seasons or four cloaks or both? Both

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:11:42

la See, I speak French too. Uh,

Jason Blitman: 1:11:45

you're prepping for the, for the, for your burial.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:11:50

yes. In, in, uh, are we belly? Uh, yes. I have four cloaks for, for four seasons. But my,

Jason Blitman: 1:12:03

even though they're interchangeable,

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:12:05

My Paul Smith is my favorite. Yeah, that's my favorite. A black mi microfiber duster, sorry.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:11

didn't know that I needed a travel cloak until watching the show.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:12:15

Well, you actually do.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:16

Now I know.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:12:17

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:12:18

So I had to, I needed to learn more.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:12:20

and here's the thing. You can even look like a schlumpy dinka underneath that coat. Um, if you don't know what Schlump DCA is, google it. just spell it out phonetically and Google it. It's Yiddish. Uh. You, you, you, you can look like that, but if you put a travel cloak on top of it, you see, well, then it's like, you know, you're on the Concord, it's wonderful. It's Jet set D.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:53

You're like, I have 12 other interviews after this, and Jason is Googling lum.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:13:00

Um, but it's, it, it, it sounds like it, it sounds like what it is. You

Jason Blitman: 1:13:04

How have I never heard this word before? I come from a long line of Jewish women. How have we.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:13:14

well, the fact that we're doing this now is be shared, right?

Jason Blitman: 1:13:18

Yes it is.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:13:20

just look it up. I'm probably conflating a lot of things, but.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:24

No, it's, it is phonetically, so you, you are, everything you said is true. Oh my God. I'm obsessed. This is my, I think this is my favorite takeaway, Schlein.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:13:41

Yes. I see a lot of them at the airport, I must

Jason Blitman: 1:13:43

I am sure you do.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:13:44

and Arthur would not be pleased

Jason Blitman: 1:13:46

No, Arthur needs to be, we need to be handing out like a, like a QR code of a, of a website for someone to buy their

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:13:54

Yeah, speaking of which, that air, that airplane episode is so genius.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:59

it's so good.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:14:00

It's, it's written so incredibly well.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:03

There is also. One of the funniest moments that I've ever experienced involving a date, the food, not, not a date, not a love date, a the food date. It is like truly one of the funniest things I've ever seen in my life. And the deli, the delivery, again, I won't say more. Everyone just needs to go watch it on Hulu. I think it's like episode six or something. Oh my God. There's singing and dancing and performing and. I'm obsessed. It was so fun. This is all the, the second half of this episode is just me telling you how much fun I had.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:14:39

Well, I'm, I'm very pleased. And the thing about it is, it's real, right? This is how real people talk. I really do sing and dance in my house by myself all the time. I just get up and break out into song,

Jason Blitman: 1:14:50

What was the latest song?

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:14:51

Um, um, oh, the latest one was, um, I think I was singing Tap Your Troubles Away From, is that from, um, Mac and Mabel? That's Jerry Herman. Tap your troubles away. I mean, and I was going into the bathroom doing it right.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:06

That's where you get, that's where the troubles go

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:15:08

yeah. And then I, you know, commenced to doing things that you do in the bathroom.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:12

right? Wash away your trouble. Then you wash the man right outta your hair.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:15:17

South Pacific I.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:18

Right? Yes, exactly. Okay. As my guest, gay reader, I have to know what you are reading in italics reading. What do you have? Do you have a grievance that we need to hold space for? There's a lot of terrible things happening in the world right now, and people feel like they can't complain about the small things. So if you feel, if you have a small thing to address,

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:15:39

Okay. I will say this. I don't wanna offend anyone, but I do so get irritated when we make plans to meet somewhere, particularly I. In the city of New York, in Manhattan. And then I'm asked this, this follow up question. Well, where do you live? I it, that's not, that doesn't matter.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:02

Mm.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:16:03

I'm gonna get in a cab, I'm gonna get in a taxi, I'm gonna get on the bus.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:07

we're going.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:16:08

Just tell me where we're going. I don't need to to eat around my house. I mean, we're not in Iowa. I can get to wherever in Manhattan.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:17

No offense to anyone in Iowa.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:16:20

and hey, uh, yeah, no offense to Desmond's, but, um, it's just, I don't understand that and, and don't make it easier for me. And plus, I'm a Virgo, so I'm going to enjoy a menu pretty much from anywhere. So that's why I always put the onus on the friend or the person that I'm going to meet up

Jason Blitman: 1:16:41

the enemy

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:16:42

Yes, because I'm not gonna have a problem with the menu. I'm not gonna have a problem where we sit. I'm just very adaptable in those kinds of ways. But don't follow up with where do you live? What it it I tell you, it gets my backup. I'm like, what does that have to do with anything?

Jason Blitman: 1:17:01

Yeah.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:17:02

when I say to you, I can meet you wherever you like, wherever you like. Just pick a lovely place and I will be there. Well, where are you? What?

Jason Blitman: 1:17:12

Well, I will say as a person who lived in New York City for many, many years, I would like for to only have to take one train.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:17:22

Well then you would preface that,

Jason Blitman: 1:17:24

That's true. That's

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:17:25

right? You would preface that

Jason Blitman: 1:17:27

right?

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:17:27

I'm rich, so I can just get on,

Jason Blitman: 1:17:32

Yes. So you should just say that I'm rich. I'll go wherever you want. Because all of my clothes are mid-century modern branded. They're gifted from Hulu. I didn't have to pay for my clothes.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:17:46

I'm rich. I'm gonna put on my travel cloak and meet you wherever you are,

Jason Blitman: 1:17:50

exactly. Oh my God. And if it's chilly out, you'll put on two travel

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:17:55

yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:17:56

We're holding space for, for this simple and horrible thing while the world is crumbling around

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:01

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:03

Right. Nathan Lee Graham, thank you so much for being here on Gay's Reading.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:06

This is so fun.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:08

So fun. I love that you have four books sitting in front of you.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:11

Yes, yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:12

It's gonna take you about three and a half more years to finish the Barbara Streisand book, but that's okay.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:16

Well, you know, what I'm doing is I, I do it, I read it on planes, and then I read it when I'm at some sort of destination. So I'll be in Fire Island in June. I'm gonna read it there. I'll be in Barcelona. Um, so I'm gonna take it, you know, I read it in, in, in big chunks like that.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:33

Yeah.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:33

The thing is, is that it's

Jason Blitman: 1:18:34

it's such a big book. Yes, you should. All the pages that you finish, you should rip out

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:39

I should or,

Jason Blitman: 1:18:40

as you go.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:41

or eat them because it's probably quite fibrous

Jason Blitman: 1:18:44

Yes. And the story is delicious. So

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:47

and I don't get enough fiber.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:49

perfect. And again, that's you. Tap your troubles away in the bathroom after the fiber.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:18:57

right.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:57

Oh my God. I can't wait to watch all of your things for all of your outfit changes.

Nathan Lee Graham: 1:19:02

Yes, yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:19:03

a wonder, have a wonderful rest of your day.

1:19:05

Everyone, thank you so much for being here. Truly. It means so much having, such wonderful, dedicated listeners thank you Katie. Thank you Nathan. Have a wonderful rest of your day and I will see you next week. Bye.