0:04

Gays reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have Denne Michele Norris talking to me about her new book When The Harvest comes and Z Carlstrom talking to me about their new book. Make sure you die screaming. big thank you to those who came out to Book Soup in LA this past weekend. I was in conversation with the lovely Sean Hewitt, sean was last week's Gay's reading guest, and this coming weekend I will be at the LA Festival of Books moderating a panel over there on Saturday at four 30. So if you're there for that, please stick around and say hello What else do we have going on? If you are new to Gazes reading, welcome and if you are back, welcome back. I'm very happy to have you. As always, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are on Instagram@gaysreading. We are on Blue Sky you could watch these episodes over on YouTube and you can like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So you will be the first to know when a new episode drops. And this Thursday I have a new spill, the t episode that I'm super excited for. So make sure to, uh, come back around for that. That is with Nathan h Lentz, who wrote a book about sexual evolution. So I talked to Nathan about that and he's super interesting and that's really fun. And now please enjoy my conversation with Denne Michele and Zee.

Jason Blitman: 2:07

I'm, I hope you pick up the mug again because we love a Dollywood Shout out

Denne Michele Norris: 2:12

I literally chose this one specifically for you, for this podcast.

Jason Blitman: 2:17

And I have a ga, a gay reader mug.

Denne Michele Norris: 2:19

Yes. Yes. Beautiful. Beautiful.

Jason Blitman: 2:23

yes, you just moved, you put an ask out for mover recommendations for mattress recommendations. You have a whole lot going on in your life at this moment.

Denne Michele Norris: 2:32

I do.

Jason Blitman: 2:33

hanging in?

Denne Michele Norris: 2:34

I'm managing. The timing worked out great, but now I'm like, and now I'm decorating as I do book stuff. So I have something important to distract me. So that's also really good.

Jason Blitman: 2:45

hot tip. Next time you move, which I hope is not anytime soon. Whenever we would move in New York, we would get, they were called gorilla bins, and they were these reusable plastic bins that, a company would drop off to you two weeks before you move and then pick it up from the location that you move to the best part about it. A, it's green, but b, you have a deadline of unpacking.

Denne Michele Norris: 3:11

Oh yeah. Okay. See, I need that.

Jason Blitman: 3:14

That's right.'cause they're coming to pick up the bins. You have to have them empty.

Denne Michele Norris: 3:19

That is amazing. That's great

Jason Blitman: 3:21

my hot tip

Denne Michele Norris: 3:22

That's a great, and it's green. And we love green.

Jason Blitman: 3:25

it's green. I know, but you could give yourself like a fake one. It could

Denne Michele Norris: 3:29

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 3:30

You're gonna host a book, launch party in your apartment and you have to have your boxes gone.

Denne Michele Norris: 3:35

I think it is gonna be something like that. I think it's probably gonna be like I have a festival this week and then a WP next

Jason Blitman: 3:42

Oh, sure.

Denne Michele Norris: 3:43

and the week after that, as of now, is a little bit lighter in terms of like interviews and things. So I. My goal, I think, is that week to have all of my new furniture arrive, have all the boxes. I think most of the boxes I'm gonna try to have picked up this week because I can't deal with them anymore.

Jason Blitman: 3:59

While it's giving a cis white man telling you what to do, it's really, it's Jewish mother, like making sure you're taken care of. Denne Michelle, empty the boxes. Make it nice in your apartment.

Denne Michele Norris: 4:14

That this is the task. This is the moment. This is the moment.

Jason Blitman: 4:17

girl. Make it nice. Your friends don't wanna see that.

Denne Michele Norris: 4:21

No. Neither do the reader, and neither does my dog, who, by the way, is right there,

Jason Blitman: 4:26

Hi dog.

Denne Michele Norris: 4:27

to me. His name is Hughes.

Jason Blitman: 4:29

God.

Denne Michele Norris: 4:29

He's been very clingy today, so I was like, yes, you can come up on the high stool. It's fine.

Jason Blitman: 4:35

The top of your sweatshirt. I can see it says, love that. Does the rest say for you?

Denne Michele Norris: 4:41

You missed one word. It says, love that journey for you. Yes. Let's see. Can I, there we

Jason Blitman: 4:48

Oh my God. Funny. Okay.

Denne Michele Norris: 4:50

Covered in dog hair.

Jason Blitman: 4:51

It was one of those things where your brain fills in space and I saw love that. And I was like, I can't imagine. Maybe it says love that and that's it, but like my brain is telling me, it says for you. But I love this journey for you. Speaking of journeys dead, Michelle. This is an audio medium. I'm holding up your book every once in a while. I forget to describe what I'm doing. I just held up your debut novel when The Harvest Comes Gorgeous cover,

Denne Michele Norris: 5:22

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 5:23

There's a lot to talk about. There's a lot to unpack. There's a lot to digest. There's a lot to, there's a big journey that I love for you. Let's, before we can we talk about the journey specifically getting from no, we can't even do that. My brain is all over the place. The book you started writing

Denne Michele Norris: 5:42

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 5:43

In your galley note, you talk about that and then you talk about how it took you 14 years to write. What was that journey like? And then we could talk more specifically about the book itself.

Denne Michele Norris: 5:54

I love talking about this because I do, because I think that one, writers need to know, other writers out there who are aspiring need to know that this work is will really test your patience. And so yeah, this took 14 years and. so the funny thing is I started the book, as I said in the galley note like in the months after my father passed away, and I was in the middle of my two years in my MFA program at Sarah Lawrence. And I had done well there my teachers were, very encouraging and supportive of my writing, but I really that my fiction wasn't. There was just something that it was missing. Like I would never revise a story. I would write a story, I'd get pretty good notes on it. And then I would move on to the next idea. Nothing, I didn't care about anything enough to like work at it. And I knew that this was a problem and I really felt that maybe I had made a mistake and needed to go to law school, but instead I started by trying to write something. That was like true to my everyday life, and I thought, if I can get rid of trying to convince anyone of anything, because I know that it's like closer to my life, I can focus on the emotional truth. And so it, it almost started as an exercise in a way. And then, I very quickly realized this was a story that I would stick with for however long it took. And at the time I thought. God, this might take me five years and that's fine. I'll do it. That's fine. I went to my MFA young, so I spent that time, I moved to New York. When I graduated, I had to build like a career that paid me more than an hourly wage.'cause prior to my MFA, I'd worked in retail mostly. I had to learn how to live in New York and pay a bill on time and. Get around the city. I was building friends and dating and building a life, and my work was in my day job work was in student affairs and youth development work. So I had this whole other career trajectory and I was writing just on top of that. And so it necessarily took a long time because those concerns, are really real. I wanted writing to be the number one thing in my life, but. I had to make sure my rent was paid. I had, and I had to make sure I had food.

Jason Blitman: 8:09

And that you were living a fulfilled life in a capacity outside of writing. The writing isn't gonna keep you warm at night.

Denne Michele Norris: 8:15

Exactly. A lot of writers, we feel that the writing will save us. And I've had, in the last couple of weeks, I've felt both that the writing did save me because it's very clear. I mean in very material ways I. In addition to like the emotional metaphorical aspect of saving. But also there are ways in which the writing didn't save me. I saved me. I had, and I had to live a life alongside it for many years as I got to this point. So yeah. But I always want writers to know that we've gotta give ourselves grace about the time it takes because this is serious business. We're trying to make art here. And it takes the time it takes.

Jason Blitman: 8:51

Yeah. On some other podcasts, in some other articles you have talked about your trans journey, your gender journey. You've talked about all aspects of your coming out process 14 years ago. Was a different, incredibly different part of your life and I think you were learning. So per other interviews that you've done, you've learned so much about yourself in the last 14 years. So I'm curious the journey of evolving with. The writing. Does that make sense? Did the book St. When you started writing, were you writing the same book that you finished writing is part of the question, but ultimately, you talked about writing truth and writing things that were true to you upon learning more about you after finishing the novel. There are whiffs of auto fiction, so I don't know if that was the intention is the wrong word, but if that was the ultimate goal or if you were learning about Davis, the character and learning about Dan Hel simultaneously.

Denne Michele Norris: 9:54

Yes, I was, and it feels fortuitous in a way. I have one thing I've wanted to say in sort of the media that I've been getting is that I. When I finished the book, I realized that I couldn't have finished it any sooner because I needed to go through the things I needed to go through in order to see this novel through to its end, but also in that there's a circuitous because I felt as though I, in fact, the novel does end where it always was supposed to end, and in many ways, it's a winding journey to write a novel and you go down a lot of wrong paths in the process, or at least I did, and I almost feel as though what I've finished with is so perfectly what I envisioned at the beginning, even though I didn't, the vision at the beginning is so vague, like you don't know a lot. You know how it, how you, or at least for me, I knew how I wanted it to feel. I knew what I wanted these characters to go through in terms of their relationship, but I did not know the vehicle. I didn't know how they were gonna get there. I didn't know how Davis was gonna get there. And, but by the end I was like, I couldn't have finished this any sooner. And at some point through the process I was like, I'm growing up alongside this novel and I. I knew in an earlier version I had ideas about what I wanted a reader to know about Davis. And it was almost like if someone asked that reader to, or if that reader got to check in on Davis, five years in the future, they would see a different person. And the reader would know, but then I was like, if that's what I want a reader to know, I should just write it. Like it just, why leave it up for any discussion? That's where the story needs to go. And so that revelation did come towards the end of the writing process when you think about 14 years. But it just felt, it felt so natural.

Jason Blitman: 12:02

You say you want it. The goal was the truth. The goal was, being honest and I think. That's, that was what was getting mine the whole way.'cause if you had written the book differently, then it wouldn't have been the truth or your truth. Okay. Listeners, tell us, for our listeners, tell us when the harvest comes. What is your elevator pitch for the book?

Denne Michele Norris: 12:25

my elevator pitch is this is. A queer love story that is irrevocably impacted by daddy issues by grief, by searching for intimacy and ultimately people finding their way back to each other.

Jason Blitman: 12:45

Yeah, I laugh because it's like hilariously universal. Do you know what

Denne Michele Norris: 12:52

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 12:53

the book starts out and it's giving nineties romcom.

Denne Michele Norris: 12:57

Yep. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 12:58

And it is ju, it's so relatable in that way. And so it's oh, I am nothing like some of the characters in this book. And yet we are all like all of these characters in this book. What do I wanna talk about next? There, there's

Denne Michele Norris: 13:12

Go anywhere.

Jason Blitman: 13:13

I know well, before we dive in, I guess too much to the book again, in another interview that you did, you talk about your name and where Michelle comes from and shout outs to our girls, Obama and Wan.

Denne Michele Norris: 13:29

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 13:30

didn't realize. You were a figure skater. Tell me more. How did this what is, if there was something about these two women that you were like, they're my girls. This is my journey, this is what I aspire to, is there a particular inspiration from them other than the obvious?

Denne Michele Norris: 13:47

No, they just, they both are iconic women in my mind that I, they're both people that I think about on an almost daily basis. What I'm looking for, I. Strength, confidence, inspiration. When I feel like I need that voice in my head to be like, you have the answer, look inside yourself. I can hear that kind of encouragement coming from Michelle Kwan and I can hear that kind of encouragement coming from Michelle Obama. So that's what I'm thinking about a lot of the time with them. And I just love that name. I think it's such a beautiful name. But I also prefer the spelling with one L. So I was very specific and intentional about that. But yeah, they're just they're just two iconic women that on the daily basis are offering me encouragement. They have no idea. They don't know why I exist. I did meet Michelle Kwan once, but they don't, they have no clue. But here we are yet.

Jason Blitman: 14:39

we are manifesting. We're on a journey. Who knows what 14 years from now is gonna give us.

Denne Michele Norris: 14:46

Yes, true.

Jason Blitman: 14:48

Obsessed. Okay. I just needed to like address that as a gay human, this was important to me.

Denne Michele Norris: 14:54

It's

Jason Blitman: 14:54

The book starts out in the, with this prep for a wedding between Davis and Everett. Davis talks about loving Everett because he knows Everett knows in italics. And it just made me think of the phrase to know someone is to love them. And then it had me thinking more about is that where love comes from? Does love come from knowing someone? What does that mean to you?

Denne Michele Norris: 15:16

Oh, that is such a good question. I think one of the things that I tumble around in my head is the possibility that love comes from different places for different people and. So that meant that for the purposes of this book, I had to understand where love's come, where love comes from for Davis, where love comes from for Everett. And I think that's a part of why they love each other. And I think very often how we love and how love is inspired in us has a lot to do with who we love. Because we can only. I don't know. I don't want to say that love is limited, but I, but when it comes to certain kinds of relationships, we can only love the people who relate to us or connect to us in the way that I think inspires love. That causes love to bloom inside of us. And so for Davis, what that line really referred to was just this idea that he grew up in. A home and in a family and in a context where actually knowing each other was very difficult. And that's not how that family always had been. But in the wake of the loss that happens at an early age for Davis where his mother passes away and in his father's grief, there are certain walls that are erected. And to actually know someone is very difficult. And I think that's a part of why Davis throws himself into the career path that he throws himself into. It's part of why so many things unfold in the novel in the way that they do, but I think for Davis it would be very, it's very easy to fall in love with a man who makes himself available. Like really available. And I think that, I guess that's true for all of us. It's not always easy to find someone who makes themselves emotionally and psychologically available. But that's what Davis was hungry for. Although he didn't know it until he met Everett. I've read.

Jason Blitman: 17:30

What about Jen Michelle? Does she feel like she can love someone? Does she love someone because she knows them well? I to interrupt myself and to interrupt you I'll take that out. I'll take that away. I'll take that off your plate for a second. Conversely, I feel like you were getting at something but not actually saying. If you don't know someone, it's hard to love them or you cannot love them,

Denne Michele Norris: 17:51

Yeah. It's tough to, for me to say anyone can or can't love, like it's hard for me to compute that, but you, but that is how I feel like how is it really love if you don't know someone? Now that I understand is a very rational way of thinking about it. Like when you talk about love at first sight, like obviously you don't know someone the first time you see them. But I would actually argue that part of why something like love at first sight happens is because on a level that's beyond consciousness, perhaps you do know them, you know them immediately, and they know you. And you may not be able to articulate it, you may not be able to explain it. I have never felt love at first sight romantically, I don't think. But I have felt love at first sight for friends. And truly the minute that we met it was like we're in this till the bitter end. And that happens, right? And you feel like you've known them forever, even though you haven't. So I think there is a level of knowledge that goes beyond what we're conscious of. And yeah, it's hard for me to then say that you can't but maybe that is what I'm saying. Maybe that is what I'm thinking, that you can't love someone if you don't know them.

Jason Blitman: 19:02

totally. And I think unpacking. The parental stuff. You said that in Davis' family, knowing each other was difficult'cause they weren't open with each other. That it in turn just made it harder to love each other. And I think just it's, I say all the time there's a difference between family and relatives and just because we're relatives doesn't mean we know each other. Right. Just because you're related doesn't mean you have that connection. Metaphysically that you have with a stranger that you meet because there's a, them in some capacity, whatever that means. It had me thinking a lot about that.

Denne Michele Norris: 19:42

I wouldn't, I don't know that I would call it a central theme, but I do feel like the ways in which this novel operates between, biological family and chosen family is very reflective of, queer people, queer relationships, queer life, and the ways in which we as a community have to embrace chosen family. Because for so many of us, particularly of a certain age, it wasn't safe for us to be known in our biological families all the time. I think there are other books that are like more maybe specifically on the nose about that, but I don't know how you write a queer book that doesn't deal with that in some way. And I was certainly very happy to write about it in, when the harvest comes.

Jason Blitman: 20:24

you earlier on talked about, joked about, were serious about, I laughed about daddy issues.

Denne Michele Norris: 20:31

Oh yes. All of them. All of

Jason Blitman: 20:33

And it's like it had me thinking about. My relationship with my father, which at the moment is nonexistent. And me prioritizing therapy, the need for therapy, my promotion of therapy, because I think talking to somebody allows yourself to know yourself better. And when you know yourself, you can love yourself and share yourself. And I think when I think about. Complicated pieces of my relationship with my dad. So much of it comes from him not addressing the truth in his own life. Him not addressing his own feelings, him not sharing himself, and in turn, making it harder to have that relationship. There are truths of his childhood that I am aware of, but that he doesn't talk about or that, doesn't address. And so it, it builds that wall up and I think, I think we could unpack knowing someone and loving someone all day long.'cause that's so much of that, and especially in that generation.

Denne Michele Norris: 21:32

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest, tensions that we see among queer people of our sort of millennial generation in particular. And I think, so many of our fathers didn't know that they could allow themselves to be known in the ways that we probably needed to know them. And I think about that a lot because. Like my father, I feel like I knew him very well. And I think he was good at that. Particularly for his generation. He was born in 1935. So yeah, I'm the youngest in my family. My dad was 50 when I was born. So really that generation, kids are seen and not heard. You just take, we love each other because we're family. That's, there's, you don't need to think about it in any way other than that. But he, I think for that generation was very emotionally intelligent. And so I did feel like I, I knew him and yet there was just inevitably there was a wall there that I think. I that I think has to do with how many men think they're supposed to move through the world. I think there's a lot of, I am not supposed to put my turmoil on you. I am, that makes me a burden. I'm supposed to hold your difficulty and solve your problems and provide for you and protect for you. But I'm not supposed to. I. Ask any of those things of you because you're my partner or you are my child and that's not how this relationship is supposed to work. And that might be very generous of me in certain ways, but I think that what I'm saying is that I think even the best of men who are of certain generations, I think it's changing a little bit, but who are of certain generations and certain identities. There's a wall up simply because of those things.

Jason Blitman: 23:39

Sure. And to that point, something of the book is also so much about is how we bring our full pasts to our relationships. And that's relationships with. Everyone, so our parents are bringing their pasts to their relationships with their children. How does that affect your daily life, do you think your own, bringing your own past to your, to, to all the people that you engage with around the world?

Denne Michele Norris: 24:07

You call me Louis Vuitton because all I have is baggage. Like

Jason Blitman: 24:11

How many times have you said that?

Denne Michele Norris: 24:13

actually that's the first time, but I'm trademarking it. That's the

Jason Blitman: 24:16

Oh,

Denne Michele Norris: 24:17

very first time.

Jason Blitman: 24:18

you heard it here first, everyone?

Denne Michele Norris: 24:20

Yeah, I literally thought of that as you asked the question, but I but that's how I am. I'm not a good com compartmentalizer in any way. So all of my stuff, like all of my stuff in my background is everywhere. So like in, like in my current job, right? Like I am I'm the editor in chief of Electric Literature and we're a nonprofit, and I, most of that career that I developed before I was full-time literary as I am now, was in the nonprofit sector. I was doing nonprofit ser service oriented work for marginalized communities in Harlem and and in the area of youth development. And I had, horrible experiences for the most part at those jobs. And, people were transphobic, they were emotionally abusive. There were all kinds of problems in those places. And when I left the last one. I said I would never, ever go back to a nonprofit. I was leaving the sector and when I came to Electric Lit, I was like, oh, it's a nonprofit, I was like, I think it'll be fine. It's completely different people. It's a completely different area of the nonprofit world, and that's true, but that baggage. It pops up all the time and I have to therapize myself and manage it. And I have a I'm very happy there. I have a great relationship. I don't want to say anything like that, like it's really amazing, but it has been

Jason Blitman: 25:36

Trauma's trauma.

Denne Michele Norris: 25:37

traumas trauma and and Halima, who's my, who's the executive director at Electric Lit has not known that she has had to do this, but she had to prove herself to me in certain ways. S simply because frankly, she's a white woman at the top of a nonprofit and I have trauma there. And it has been a completely different experience, and I am like, okay, like I can work in this sector, I can do this work. And it's just, it's completely changed everything. So like I have professional baggage that like, accompanies me in professional settings. I absolutely have personal baggage that accompanies me in all of my personal areas. One could argue that this entire novel is me taking my baggage and putting it in a beautiful package for people to read.

Jason Blitman: 26:24

And to, yes, there is humor in that, but also that's sometimes what we need to do. It's, putting it into something creative and passing it off into the world. And I don't wanna say moving on because you don't move on from the baggage. However when it could when you can see that it could be put in a small package, it's easier to not feel the burden of it, I imagine.

Denne Michele Norris: 26:49

Yes, and also it just, it gave me. Writing a novel was an excuse for me to live in the baggage and deal with it and turn it around in my head and therapize myself. Not that I haven't worked with therapists,'cause I definitely have. But a big part of that is learning how to manage yourself. And I'm, that I'm very good at. And I had a real excuse to do that work because it was connecting, it was connected to the art that I wanted to make. I told my thesis advisor Sarah Lawrence, when I came back my second year, and I had started working on this. And I wasn't ready to call it a novel yet. I was saying it was a long story or a novella, but I said to her, I was 25 and I said, I feel lucky because I feel like I have found the thing. That is why I'm a writer. I. I think very often writers know that we're writers long before we know why we're writers. And I don't mean like reasons like loving it, but in terms of what are the things that we need to be living with and dealing with and writing about the things that keep us up at night for things that drive us to write. I think it takes more time often to identify that. And I, in the process of starting this, I was like, oh, this is why I write, I. That's why I didn't care about any of the other short stories that I wrote and would never revise them. And as soon as I finished them was onto the next story.'cause that's where my attention took me. Those were not why I was writing. I was just cutting my teeth a little bit. This is why I am writing and the project as someone who wants to write for the rest of my life, is to make sure that everything that I write, short things are one thing, but in terms of book projects are things that are why I'm writing and that they take up that much space in my mind and my heart. And I'm sure that I veered so far away from that original question that you asked, so let me know if I didn't answer it.

Jason Blitman: 28:43

No. I think the conversation about bringing our baggage to everything that we have the conversation about, just identifying pieces of us and compartmentalizing all of that into one space. I think it's almost like a. You have to let it expand in order to shrink it back down.

Denne Michele Norris: 29:02

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 29:03

yeah. Anyway. No, I think it's that. I think you, there was an answer in there. Of course, yes.

Denne Michele Norris: 29:09

but every book I write, everything I write is going to be tied to my baggage in some

Jason Blitman: 29:14

right. Yes.

Denne Michele Norris: 29:16

it has to be.

Jason Blitman: 29:17

'cause that's we bring ourselves to everything that we do. So a lot of the book. About, not about, but there's a lot of nurture versus nature. There's a lot of becoming in the book. There is a lot of questioning and there's a great quote that I'm gonna misquote, but there's a line in the book that's something along the lines of. N don't be more worried about what ifs when you could be excited about what is, and I think we're so worried about the maybes and the becoming and the what is going to happen and the questioning of the, where did this come from? But without focusing on the now is there, do you have a trick for that, for yourself of living in the moment?

Denne Michele Norris: 30:12

A little bit. So there's two things I am part of. This comes from both the figure skating and I, I played viola also very seriously. Through

Jason Blitman: 30:23

Oh, we're gonna talk about that.

Denne Michele Norris: 30:26

yes. So that is the thing. And I both of those things, learning how to do them is so physical, right? There's like physical technique. And so it makes you, you become someone who's very in tune with your body. And so for me, one of the ways in which I. Am able to slow my brain down and help myself stay in the moment, is just literally paying attention to my physical, being, paying attention to how my body is feeling in a moment. Taking a moment to feel the ground underneath my feet, taking the moment to feel the temperature that I'm at and whether or not I'm comfortable taking a moment to I might, I don't know, run my hand through my hair or something. Or if I have an ice cold glass of water, feel like the ice cold water going down my throat, just something to bring me into my body, which reminds me that in this second, in this minute, this is what I'm accountable to. And everything else can wait another minute or five minutes or 10 minutes while I get my head into the right space. Nothing is so urgent that I can't stop for 60 seconds. And, everyone, anyone will give me 60 seconds, pretty much at any point, right? So I can always do that, right? So that's one thing. The second thing, which is a little bit different, but when it comes to things like you're on the precipice of something and you're worried about, the past or what people think or whatever, versus, doing whatever it is that you need to do. I don't have a trick for this, but I talk about it. One thing about me is that I, once I get tired of something, I'm just done. I'm just done. So like this, the way that I came out as a gay man when I was 15, was I simply got tired of being afraid of lying to everyone, of feeling that there was something wrong with me. I was like, I'm tired of this. This is crazy and I'm not doing it anymore. And then I came out and that was it. And I truly was like, if anyone has a problem with this, that's their problem. That's the world's problem. That has nothing to do with me. And I was bitchy about it'cause I needed to be'cause of my settings, right? Like I was just you have issues, like I'm gonna live my best life. And that's how I felt. But that's how I tick. So even like with breakups. I'm sad until a point, and eventually, usually pretty quickly I get tired of being sad and then I just stop being sad because I'm tired of feeling that way, like I'm tired of feeling that way. You could argue that part of why I finally finished the novel is because I was tired of not having finished the novel. I really was

Jason Blitman: 33:15

whatever it takes.

Denne Michele Norris: 33:17

whatever it takes, I just get tired of something and when I get tired of something. I end up saying to myself, you don't have to live like this. And once I've said that to myself, it's like the train is, has left the station and I'm almost at it at my whims. And so those are two things that either keep me in the moment or get me to start moving when I need to move.

Jason Blitman: 33:44

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I realized in the moment or upon reflection, I was like, oh, I was, I'm essentially asking you to give me answers, which I'm not really, it was, I am. It's interesting, I think,'cause we all. We all humans, queer people navigate similar nuggets throughout life and. I think hearing what you were saying about being tired, I'm like, oh, I have lived so much of my life being worried about what people are going to think of me, that I've I've, I am, I'm beyond capacity, so I don't care anymore. So it has, that cup has filled and overflowed and not in a good way, and I'm just like, oh, I have, I've hit my threshold of caring what people think and so now I don't care anymore.

Denne Michele Norris: 34:32

And now. And now you're free of that. It's like imagining a world, a life where you get to be free of that feeling.

Jason Blitman: 34:39

Yeah. And so you were talking about the, cold glass of water, et cetera, almost like a meditation. Davis in the book plays scales in arpeggios as a form of meditation. Do, would you, do you also do that? Is that also on your list of things as a violist, former violist? Do you still play.

Denne Michele Norris: 34:58

No I don't play anymore. I would like to, again I miss it a little bit and I miss the repertoire. I. And so one thing that is on my to-do list sometime this year is to have my viola repaired and start playing again because there is one thing that was always an issue in my playing was that I held a lot of tension in my shoulders and in my back. And so the task was always to relax, to lower my shoulders, to let that tension drain out of my body. And I think putting that into practice again would just be good for me and I do miss it. But I will say scales and arpeggios. My teachers talked about them as a form of meditation. They were not for me. They were a task. They were boring. I hated them. Now I think I would love them in it and they would work that way for me. But at that time, when I attached so much to Viola,'cause I wanted to. Play viola professionally for a long time and I had a lot of issues around feeling like I was inadequate and not good enough and not talented enough and so that just like made me crazy. And so I was not as good at like just enjoying the moment and enjoying the practice for what it was. So at the time it was not peaceful for me at all, but I think it would be now.

Jason Blitman: 36:05

And also you. Similar with the book. You've been on a journey since, I'm sure the last time you picked up a bow. And I am imagine that, the baggage, can also be a good thing right? And so, And so bringing the new baggage to the table with playing maybe you wouldn't hold the tension on your shoulders so much anymore. I it's just it could be interesting to explore what. What you as a violist looks like now.

Denne Michele Norris: 36:34

absolutely. And I'm excited to do it. It would be fun. And that's exactly right. Even thinking about technical issues that I had, and I was like, I wonder if those would be gone away simply because I'm not gonna be in my head about it in the same way now, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:50

That's so interesting. Whilst we are talking about music Oh, still scales in arpeggio. Arpeggios you talk about. There's a great description in the book about them that I won't, I don't really want to get into'cause I want people to experience it when they read the book, comparing it to a playground. And I will just say that it made me think about life in general in a different way. I in the sense of we are, we have the we. Life is life. These are our tools, this is our playground. Period. Do with it as you will.

Denne Michele Norris: 37:30

Yeah, first. Wow, thank you. I have to tell you, I had so much fun writing that passage that was like incredibly joyful for me. And it was so easy to imagine the ways that Davis would tell that, or speak that soliloquy, in a joyful way. Simply because he's so excited about what he loves to do, right? And that's how I talk about writing to people really. So it was really fun to imagine that and to imbue that. And it was really fun to just let my imagination run wild. And what I'll tell you about it is that when I wrote it, I wrote that during my first round of revisions, after the novel had sold. And I remember sending that draft to my editor and I just was like. I don't know. She might think this is too much. Like it might be over the top. It might be too crazy. But it just went through. Everyone loved it. And so that, that's been really fun to talk about because it was, for me, it felt like a moment where I got to really lean into the character actually and show the reader who this character is, how this character thinks and moves through the world. So it does a lot of work in that way, but it was intricate to write, it was challenging, it was fun. But I also think that it speaks to my project as a whole in terms of, being able to look at the world around me and be like, yes, this is the life I have. This is, here's what I can do with it. Here are the options. So let's look at this rationally. And figure out our path, so thank you. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 39:08

And we're speaking so vaguely, but everyone will know exactly what we're talking about when they pick up the book. I, there is a sentence in this book that I have to call you out on. You are on gay's reading. I'm going to call you out on this and then I'm gonna need you to unpack it for the people. No context. How important it is for a violist F hole to point straight out to the audience.

Denne Michele Norris: 39:36

Oh my. I was like, where is he going with this? Where is he going? This is super fun to talk about actually. So.

Jason Blitman: 39:46

All know where my mind goes, but tell me what it really means in terms of the music.

Denne Michele Norris: 39:52

So I, I will say that as a very serious violist, I went to chamber music camp in high schools. Like I would go for six weeks in the summer, and there was some activity where we were just making dirty jokes about the instruments for and putting them on t-shirts for something. And of course, the string players were talking about f holes. Which for people, if you look at a violin, viola, cello, or bass, are those holes shaped like an F on the front of the instrument? So for the viola. The viola is very different from the violin or the cello in that these instruments have what's called an acoustic range, right? A lowest note and a highest note, and that's called the acoustic range. And ma this is like very intricate and mathematical, but for the violin and the cello, the size of those instruments matches their acoustic range perfectly. And that, that means that they are, it's just all in harmony when you play those instruments. It's all working. It's all. Easy to play in certain ways and it works beautifully. And the problem is that the viola's acoustic range the perfect measurement for a viola would be too big for any human being to play it the way that the viola is played.'cause the viola is played on your shoulder. Yeah. And so over hundreds of years Lu ears have experimented with different ways of trying to reshape the viola and do different tricks to make that work. Because what happens is because the size doesn't match the acoustic range, there are. Real challenges to playing the viola and drawing the sound out of the instrument effectively. And there are just things that you have to figure out, techniques and ways of getting around. And so what this means is that the viola is sometimes harder to hear for listeners. And so in chamber music and in orchestras to an extent there are different ways of arranging who sits everywhere. But when I was growing up, something that was becoming more popular was not having the violists sit in the middle of the orchestra or in the middle of the quartet, but having the violists sit opposite the first violins, so at the edge of the stage. And then they could actually turn their body a little bit when they had a solo to, so that the sound projected from the F holes straight into the audience. And there's a lot of debate because some people think that is better and more successful. And some people think that the violists should just sit in the center of the orchestra and then if they turn out just a little bit than they're already, the f holes are gonna be moving forward. But very often. The instruments in the middle of the orchestra, the sound gets a little bit lost and muffled sometimes. So there's different schools of thinking about it, but yes, it is it's a thing that you think about, especially in a string quartet setting, which I did a lot of chamber music. That's where I was really serious. And for a long time I wanted to be in a quartet professionally. I always used to sit on the outside and turn, and I, there's like video footage of me at home in concerts where the, I would have a big solo and I would turn out.

Jason Blitman: 42:51

Hold towards the

Denne Michele Norris: 42:52

and face my f hole towards the audience, which is something I was born to do.

Jason Blitman: 42:58

this is so interesting. The things I learned whilst reading the book there are a gajillion things that we have yet to even touch on. Everything from different kinds of fear we face to, allowing ourselves to embrace our future and not harp on the past. I don't like using the word harp'cause it sounds like we're. Complaining about our past, but maybe just move on from the past is a better way to say it. Relationships between parents and children. I said to my husband at dinner last night that this book had me thinking a lot about my own relationship with my dad and just how complicated that is and will continue to be. I'm just at this point because we only have a few minutes left. I'm rattling off all the things that I am, I'm feeling it had me thinking a lot about submission and what that means in all sorts of ways. I will say though that I'm mostly upset and angry that there was a scene where you had Everett do a hundred pushups.

Denne Michele Norris: 43:59

I know. I've set the bar is high.

Jason Blitman: 44:02

Because I was like, oh, he is hot you. And by saying he just did a hundred pushups. That's all you needed to do.

Denne Michele Norris: 44:12

Yep. And some of them are

Jason Blitman: 44:13

who can fucking do a hundred pushups? Literally no one.

Denne Michele Norris: 44:17

and some of them are one-handed. It's, it is. I, that was so fun when I was just like, I'm just gonna put this in here and see if I get away with it.

Jason Blitman: 44:26

Duh. Of course.

Denne Michele Norris: 44:27

And I did. I did. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:29

what is bringing you joy these days? There's a lot, I don't wanna say there's a lot of trauma in the book, but, you have 14 years worth of shit you were working out in here.

Denne Michele Norris: 44:38

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 44:39

What's bringing you enjoy?

Denne Michele Norris: 44:41

Honestly, right now conversations like this are bringing me joy. It's fun to be at this moment in my life and this moment in the book's trajectory where people have read it, people have, for the most part really liked it, I think, and have. Are engaging in it really thoughtfully. So this is bringing me joy. My new apartment brings me a ton of joy. I love this apartment. It's got a ton of beautiful light, and it's quiet and it's spacious and it's in New York City, and it's the first time where I, my workspace will not be in my bedroom.

Jason Blitman: 45:12

Yes.

Denne Michele Norris: 45:12

and it has a kitchen island like I'm living the dream. Yeah, I have a

Jason Blitman: 45:16

A gajillionaire over here.

Denne Michele Norris: 45:18

I and I was gonna say, so there are ways in which Sell in the book did Save my Life, right? Like the

Jason Blitman: 45:22

Amen.

Denne Michele Norris: 45:22

Amen. Thank you Random House. But and my dog, my sweet little baby Hughes who brings me so much joy. And just like reading, I don't know. I feel like I am on the precipice of the life or I'm, or just stepped into the life that I have been working towards. That I was, that was meant for me. And when all of that is in alignment just existing brings me joy. So like now I am making coffee every morning by myself in my beautiful kitchen with my French press and my really pretty kettle that has a button where you can make sure it keeps the water hot after it's done boiling. And that is meditative for me and that is joyful for me. And it's just simple and quiet. And daily and feeding my dog at that moment.'cause that's when I feed my dog in the morning. That brings me joy. It's just little things, little practices where I get to fully be myself and own the space that I'm in is really joyful. I think that's the thing that we all work towards.

Jason Blitman: 46:20

Amen. And I'm a little bummed that you said that's when you feed the dog, because I, as you were describing this, I was picturing you laying on the kitchen island like a piano, waiting for the water to boil, but no. Next time

Denne Michele Norris: 46:37

maybe tomorrow.

Jason Blitman: 46:39

right?

Denne Michele Norris: 46:39

Maybe

Jason Blitman: 46:40

That's, that could be like a, your Vogue cover photo shoot can be you laying on your kitchen island. Oh my God. We will go find you on all the places and follow you on electric lit. Louis Vuitton, thank you so much for being here.

Denne Michele Norris: 46:56

Thank you for having me. This was so fun.

Jason Blitman: 46:59

Then Michelle Norris, come on When the harvest comes the book is out now. Everyone go get your copy, support local wherever you, you know, get your books. Congrats. Have a great rest of your day.

Denne Michele Norris: 47:13

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 47:15

Carlstrom, thank you for being my guest gay reader today. Welcome.

Zee Carlstrom: 47:19

much for having me.

Jason Blitman: 47:21

I'm happy to have you. Um, okay. First thing I wanna talk to you about, because I'm obsessed. The bio on your, your galley is z carlstrom grew up in Illinois. They live in Brooklyn. The final version of your bio on the website is z Carlstrom grew up in Illinois. They're now, uh, an art director or whatever, whatever your type, whatever your job is, they live in Brooklyn. You're an elusive figure.

Zee Carlstrom: 47:55

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 47:55

You don't really have social media presence, but you are there, right? Some people are just like, not on social media, period. You're on social media, but it's like nothing. Your bio is nothing. And I was like, is ZA person? Do they exist? So I'm thrilled that you're here. And my favorite way to learn a little bit more about someone is to find out what they're reading. Z what are you reading?

Zee Carlstrom: 48:17

So a great many things. Um, but what I, I was gonna specifically talk about two things. The first is, um, I, I've been reading a lot of Reddit threads about how to get citizenship and visas in other

Jason Blitman: 48:36

Yes, yes, yes, yes. We have some links, my husband and I, I well offline. I'm happy to send you a couple of them.

Zee Carlstrom: 48:44

Yeah, that would be good. Um, it's, and I, the thing about it is I have really complicated feelings about even the, even that impulse, even the desire to go looking. I mean, I think it, I had the same desire in 2016. Things were really chaotic. Um, I opted to stay. Uh, things have gotten, you know. Measurably worse, I think is a nice way to say it. And, but I'm really, I'm just so conflicted because I. As soon as I started looking into it and saw how much it was about like, well, you know, you could get a global talent visa. Are you, are you talented? Do eminent people say nice things about you? Have you won these awards? And I started to be like, well, maybe, you know, I could probably finagle my way into this. And then I started to get angry at myself and angry kind of at like the. The entire global system of citizenship and where you can and can't be and how like I'm somehow potentially able to go other places while, you know, one of the biggest problems with what's going on in America is that like people who have come here and deserve to be here in opinion, um, are. You know, being deported, being kicked out now without even really cause or certainly not like legal just cause of, for, for those deportations. And so I'm really, I, I feel, you know, I feel all sorts of things. I feel a bit like a coward. For wanting to run. I feel like I, um, like, I don't know, just a little bit sick of myself, you know, in terms of wanting to or ha having the ability and the means to, to flee and to be somebody who, I guess the rest of the world for whatever reason could potentially deem desirable. Like, that makes me. Really sad. Um, I'm gonna be funnier as the conversation goes on,

Jason Blitman: 50:50

there's,

Zee Carlstrom: 50:50

but

Jason Blitman: 50:53

there's no requirement to be

Zee Carlstrom: 50:54

Right. No, I have just say I'm gonna keep it light. I'm not trying to bring everybody down. I just like really have, I'm so conflicted. I talking to friends about it, people are like, well, if you should consider really. It's, it's a struggle, but I have always really believed in what, uh, I think America's supposed to be about. And that idea for me comes more from people like, you know, Frederick Douglas than it does from people like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. Like I, but I think like these ideas of, you know, forming a, a place where everyone can belong is a really beautiful idea. And I, I. If I do have the privilege to leave, well that means I also probably have this, you know, privilege to stay and potentially try to make it that place. Right? Uh, and I don't know if I have the ability or, but I would like to, I, I'm tempted to try and maybe stand my ground.

Jason Blitman: 51:58

Yeah, that's a very thoughtful insight. If you have the privilege to leave, then you should have the privilege to stay. but your instinct to fall down a Reddit rabbit hole also makes sense, right? Like it, there's something about, uh, making sure your parachute is packed, you know?

Zee Carlstrom: 52:16

Right, right. Because it's like at what point is it really gonna seem like the plane is going down,

Jason Blitman: 52:22

Right.

Zee Carlstrom: 52:23

you know?

Jason Blitman: 52:23

listen, I, a lot of my anxiety comes from expectations and if I am fully prepared for something, then I'm typically. Less anxious about it. And so like, yeah, you could feel comfortable and confident to stick around and fight the good fight literally and metaphorically. But if you also know how to get the hell outta here, it can, it can help arm you better, uh, while you're here.

Zee Carlstrom: 52:55

Yeah, I think that, I think that's smart. I, I mean, I'm a tremendously anxious person. Just, just really living, like in my non-work hours, living exclusively on pot and just trying to, trying to numb any of the bad feelings, um, which really doesn't always work, but, so I, and I do, I, I think you're absolutely right, like sometimes just having a plan, making some kind of decision, like, okay, well that's the decision I made, so now I can leave it alone.

Jason Blitman: 53:22

right. Um, you said there were two things you wanted to talk about that you were reading. So your rabbit, your rabbit rabbit holes. Your rabbit, rabbit holes. What, what's the other thing you wanted to talk about?

Zee Carlstrom: 53:32

Well, so the other thing's kind of bigger, um, and, and

Jason Blitman: 53:36

Bigger than a Reddit rabbit hole.

Zee Carlstrom: 53:37

bigger, right? as if anything could be.

Jason Blitman: 53:40

I know that seems impossible. more.

Zee Carlstrom: 53:43

so, so I'm reading, um, the Queer Art of Failure by Jack Halber. I don't know if you've ever read it.

Jason Blitman: 53:50

not.

Zee Carlstrom: 53:52

It's really great. Um, it's, it's the kind of thing, so I have, I have had not like a, basically I am a queer person who hasn't done the work. Um, and I'm

Jason Blitman: 54:05

what does that mean to you?

Zee Carlstrom: 54:07

Yeah, so I, I am new to my queerness. It's certainly to like openly admitting it or talking about it. Um, and I'm really getting some practice in now that the book is coming out. And the book is so much about that. And really honestly, like my book, uh, helped me to. I mean, through the writing process, like I realized that the character was gender queer, and I, and I had already kind of known that about myself, but I wasn't talking about it at all. And so, so anyway, like it's, it's a relatively nascent thing for me, and I have always had. A bit of a love hate relationship with like theory and academia in general because I come from this background where, you know, my parents are super alienated by academia in general and are very much like suspicious of education and I'm not, but I still am like, well, I don't wanna over intellectualize some of these things. I want them to come from a true place like inside me. I understand before. I feel like my approach has become, I'm gonna ask you if you've read another thing, which is like, foundation by Isaac Asimov, if you know that series. Um, So it's pretty cool. Basically the idea is like civilization, gally has collapsed and there's a foundation that exists where when this new civilization that's growing is ready to receive a really crucial piece of information, a hologram. Guy comes out of the foundation and tells them like, this is what you need to know right now. And then he goes away for like a hundred years. And I feel like that's my relationship with Queer Theory is when I'm, when I, I'm ready finally to learn a thing, that's when I read another book or I go down another rabbit hole, you know? Um, and I, because I think if I had read The Queer Art of Failure, um, which is brilliant. Before I was ready, I probably would've like burned down Seton Hall at DePaul, which is where I stayed. And so I think like it's good that I didn't read it until now, but um, the book is really about this idea that in our context, in a capitalist system, in a heteronormative system with a patriarchy and all these things to be queer, and to fail radically, essentially is, can be like a form of, protest to, to kind of not. Conform by necessity, and I've always been an incredibly success oriented person, you know, and I don't think that was necessarily. The idea of failing purposefully, or not being afraid to do something that the whole society is going to hate. You know, there's a lot of like John Waters in it. Like that kind of idea of I'm gonna make you look at this and you're gonna hate me for it, and I don't care because like through that, through your discomfort or through my own personal failure to make something that. Of a sudden we've gone somewhere, we've achieved something more. Um, and I think that, you know, if you fail profoundly, um, and there's all sorts of ways that Hal Stem kind of defines these failures and, uh, ways that, you know, I, I'm not really even smart enough to articulate, but the, the like. Idea of that has been really freeing to me, particularly with this book coming out and being like, if, if I fail, if it, if it doesn't hit a nerve, if the culture isn't, doesn't like what I had to say, maybe that's okay. Maybe it's just'cause the book's bad, but maybe it's because like I fundamentally said something that people didn't wanna hear or it didn't match up with like a worldview or whatever, you know.

Jason Blitman: 57:58

Yeah. You know, it's interesting to hear you say that sort of, I mean related, but unrelated. I think about this when it comes to books. I think about this when it comes to job interviews. I think about this when it comes to all sorts of things, but like one person liked it enough to publish it.

Zee Carlstrom: 58:15

Right.

Jason Blitman: 58:16

So does anything else matter? You know, or like, is, is that validation enough? Or, you know, a job hunt process? You know, it's like, okay, well you make it to the final round, but you don't get the job. It's like, okay, well they, you were championed along the way. It just wasn't necessarily the right fit. Or, you know, whatever it is. There's a, an ask for every chair. You know, there's, there's a, a book is for someone, you know, so I don't know. It just, uh, I am a perpetual glass half full person,

Zee Carlstrom: 58:50

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 58:50

I think sometimes a bad thing. Um, so

Zee Carlstrom: 58:55

I was more that

Jason Blitman: 58:55

can you even say you, have you failed, if let, let's say the book does poorly, could you even say it was a failure because it was published? Do you know what I mean?

Zee Carlstrom: 59:06

Yeah, I think there's, I think, uh, my sort of problem, because I completely agree, like fundamentally with what you said, truly, and I, I wish I was more of a, I'm like kind of.

Jason Blitman: 59:18

I feel you.

Zee Carlstrom: 59:24

The, the idea that, like it used to be for me, and I used to tell myself all the time,'cause I, I've written eight books, I never sent them anywhere. Like I've been, I've been writing and writing for years and I was never ready for anyone to look at it. And I didn't want anyone to judge it. and I used to tell myself like, even if I make one person laugh or one person have any kind of experience, hopefully profound, then that's enough.

Jason Blitman: 59:48

Yeah.

Zee Carlstrom: 59:50

Then, you know, you ostensibly do that like once, or someone does buy it and you have that one seat in that one chair and all of a sudden you're like, oh, what about the next one? Really? Two people would be a little better. Um, and I think that that's a really dangerous.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:11

Sure.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:00:12

I'm, that I've been really working through and I, and because I don't want it to be like about that. It's not

Jason Blitman: 1:00:19

No, but it's very human.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:00:20

Yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:22

We all wanna be liked. For the listeners, tell us about make sure you Die screaming. Do you have an elevator pitch for the book?

Zee Carlstrom: 1:00:31

I do. Of course. The copywriter, me has to have one. so it's a gender queer corporate burnout searches for their estranged, Trump loving father who has gone missing in the, very much. I, I had a bio, uh, actually, which was, um, which had the line, uh, the, the book isn't auto fiction, but their parents do in fact live in Arkansas. Um, and, uh, I think the publisher was, um, I, I. Do have parents who did move from Chicago to Arkansas with their retirement. They wanted to be closer to the people who had their same political ideology. They wanted to be in the warm embrace of Trump country. And my parents are, you know, they voted for Obama twice. They then, and had voted Union Democrat, basically c. Been that way. They were very anti George Bush. And then this whole Trump thing happened and they have gone so deep into it. Um, the conspiracy theory culture that my father was really immersed in pulled him so far down into the, the world where like, you know, even the, even Elon Musk naming his company, company, Tesla. It's like so attractive to my dad because he believes that Nikolai Tesla like invented free electricity and then was stomped out by Thomas. It's like all this, it's like all this like lore that that whole movement politically is like tapping into. So the book isn't, it's about trying to deal with essentially having my truth and having the people I love. A different set of truths that are not really, and keep oscillating wildly as, as the worlds. And so like the journey to find the missing father is also like a, a search for that truth.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:34

That's great. That's a great, uh, elevator pitch with a, with a coda. Um, which I appreciate because I think, you know, for anyone who reads it, I think there's a nugget of, oh, could this be auto fiction? And then you're like, no, there's no way. This is auto fiction. In our last few minutes together as my guest gay reader, the last thing I wanna ask you that I realized is such an important question that we should all have in the back, an answer to in the back of our mind, not dissimilar from the parachute conversation we were having, um, who this is, this is a time to amplify people we love and care about deeply. Who would delete your history when you die? Your search history on your computer. Who's deleting your search history on your computer?

Zee Carlstrom: 1:03:26

meant entire Wikipedia bio or

Jason Blitman: 1:03:28

No.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:03:30

Um.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:31

Z. Your bio has six words in it. You're good. You're good. When it comes to internet searching? No. Who's deleting? Who are you? What friend are you enlisting to be responsible for clearing the history on your computer?

Zee Carlstrom: 1:03:46

It would be my, it would be my partner. It would have to be my partner, but I, she's the only person I can trust to make sure that no one would know anything. I mean, you know, I, I'm not getting into anything that, like, is, is honestly, I feel like I could show my search history to the whole world and I, I'd be fine with it. I know that's probably wild, but I mean, there'd be like a lot of weird things. Like today I was, I was. Probably exclusively Googling LeBron's feet, LeBron James' feet. Um, but that was because I was writing an essay about his feet. It was not like a fetish thing.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:21

You were writing an essay about his feet on a fetish website,

Zee Carlstrom: 1:04:27

No, on Substack, which in its own way is a fetish website.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:31

what shoe size? What did we learn?

Zee Carlstrom: 1:04:34

no. So his toes are like, he basically has crushed his feet through 40 years of basketball. And my feeling was like, I've never seen a greater testament to like an athlete's greatness as like just looking at this poor man's foot and being like, he's still playing on this. Like, we argue about, you know, I'm Chicago Michael Jordan's a big deal, basketball.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:59

uh.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:05:00

Michael Jordan's done all this, you know, all these tremendous things. People like, he's the greatest of all time people. LeBron's greatest. All my, is that anyone who has, is that

Jason Blitman: 1:05:15

Interesting. I need to come out for my dancer friends and be like, look at dancer feet. Every single dancer has messed up feet and they still dance on them, and so justice for the dancers is all I have to say.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:05:31

No, you know, honestly, it's a good point. And I did, as I was writing it, I was like, I'm being pretty silly about this. Like obviously people are, and, and you know what? The dancers are probably more impressive, honestly, the things that the dancers put their bodies through, like, that's crazy. Um, I, I, I could never, uh, and yeah, the basketball thing is actually, it happened because I, I got season tickets to. And then I got, because then for me, I had never really been to NBA games because they were too expensive. So I got into that and then the WNBA ended and I needed more basketball. So this is like a very new obsession. I've just, like, it's my, it's the thing I look at. I'll take an edible. I watched the, the men bounce the balls, and I don't think about anything in.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:18

And then you turn on your TV to watch basketball. See now that your search history is public. I knew exactly what you were talking about. Um, this is very funny because on your website, at the bottom of the page, there are, you know, images, like social media icons and things, and one of them is the shape of a basketball. And I literally was like, I wonder what that is, but didn't click into it. So, because I was just like, oh, there's a basketball there. I wonder why that's. Interesting. And that was the end of that. Now it all makes sense.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:06:56

Yes, yes. I, I started the substack, it's called Make sure you Dunk Screaming. You see? Um, yes, very clever. And uh, and so basically my whole thing is everyone's talking about stats. My thing is no stats, just truth.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:11

no stats in the stacks.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:07:13

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:14

Uhhuh, Uhhuh.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:07:15

I don't want, I don't, I just wanna basically say silly thoughts about the sport that is.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:22

I'm so glad to hear that. See, this is a great thing to amplify. Find the things that give you life. I love everyone. Make sure you buy this book screaming, no, that was bad.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:07:38

I think it,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:39

Make sure you die. Screaming by z. Carlstrom is out now. Go get it wherever you get your books. Z thanks so much for, for being our guest gay reader today.

Zee Carlstrom: 1:07:50

Thank you so.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:55

So great to meet you too.

1:07:56

Thank you Jen. Michelle, thank you Z. Everyone. I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for listening and have a wonderful rest of your week. Bye.