0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I am your host Jason Blitman, I just came back from the LA Times Festival of Books where. I was moderating a panel with some fabulous authors and got to hang out with a bunch of great folks. Thank you to those of you who stopped and said hello. It was really fun to see a whole bunch of people who love books all in one place, and it was really special and really great. And if you've never been, uh, I highly recommend perhaps trying to get to one, get to one, get to the LA Times Festival of Books, or if you've just never been to a book festival, they are certainly really fun, lovely places. To be and to, uh, find your people. If you are new to Gay's Reading, welcome and if you have been here before, welcome back. I'm happy to have you. today's episode, I am in conversation with Annie Hartnett talking to me about her book, the Road to Tender Hearts, and I have. Been obsessed with Annie Hartnett for so long now because I loved her book Unlikely Animals a few years ago. It was so much fun. And my guest, gay reader today is Debbie Millman, what else is going on today? The Correspondent by Virginia Evans comes out today. I have not had a chance to read it yet, but I've heard such terrific things. It is a book that is told through correspondence, which I think is really fun. Um. As always, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at Gays Reading on Instagram. We're on Blue Sky. Another book that comes out today is The Lilac People by Milo. Todd and I have been looking forward to this book all year, and I have a q and a with Milo that is posted on the Gays reading Substack, so you should go check that out over on the Substack, the link to that in the show notes, in the link tree, on the Instagram, all of those things. Of course, I am still partnering with Aardvark Book Club. You can get your first book through Aardvark for$4 and free shipping when you go to aardvark book club.com and use the code Gaze reading. It is such an incredible deal. And they are so awesome. I don't know if you follow them on social media, but they're a great social media follow. They are. They're just great. It's a great company and, um, I highly recommend checking them out. Art rec book club.com code gays reading book$4. Who could ask for anything more? Um, great. Annie and Debbie's bios are in the show notes and there are a handful of things that Annie talks to me about and once we stopped recording, I asked if she would send me pictures of some of the things that comes up. So those photos can be found on the substack as well, make sure to go check that out. I. I'm still laughing after looking at them. Alright, those are all the things. I hope you're great and enjoy this conversation with Annie Hartnett and Debbie Millman.

Jason Blitman: 3:34

truly unlikely animals was, I loved it.

Annie Hartnett: 3:37

oh, thank you. Thanks so much.

Jason Blitman: 3:39

It is so weird. You are so weird. I'm obsessed with you.

Annie Hartnett: 3:44

Thank you. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 3:46

Okay. What? We're not here to talk about unlikely animals. We are here to talk about

Annie Hartnett: 3:51

Another weird

Jason Blitman: 3:51

to tender hearts. Another weird one. Obsessed. It's funny'cause they're not the same book, obviously. But they're like cousins.

Annie Hartnett: 4:01

Yeah. They, yes. There, there are. I can't write another old man book, that's for sure. For a while. Forever. cause yeah. So both both Tender Hearts and un unlike the animals have a old man or older man character. They're both, people get, I get in trouble these days for calling men in their sixties old men. so PJ in the Road to Tender Heart. Is 63. So he's not old. He's older,

Jason Blitman: 4:32

older,

Annie Hartnett: 4:33

lived hard.

Jason Blitman: 4:34

Yeah.

Annie Hartnett: 4:35

men in their sixties who lived hard do come across as old men.

Jason Blitman: 4:39

What do you think it is that makes one old?

Annie Hartnett: 4:43

that's a good question because Clive in unlikely animals is 68 and he works hard to stay young by he uses a lot of slang. He likes to hang with pretty much anybody. Pj also PJ Holiday in tender Hearts. He would hang with anybody. He's got all the friends at the bar. He probably has a lot of younger friends, so I don't know if it's so it's not PJ Holiday has had three heart attacks. He is a hoarder. He he doesn't take good care of himself. So I just, yeah. But every time I start talking about the book now and I'm like, oh, it's about an old man. People are like, you're, he's in his sixties. Okay, fine, he is,

Jason Blitman: 5:31

He is an older man than you are. No, but now I'm really stuck on what makes one old

Annie Hartnett: 5:37

I don't know.

Jason Blitman: 5:38

I'm like, really, I have this, I've had this long conversation. I say long conversation. It's a long conversation with myself that has permeated through a number of interviews now about what's the, what makes you an adult? Like where is, when do you cross that threshold? And I think because I believe that it. Is all made up and we never really do, and you're waiting to become an adult. And I wonder if the same is for old, if you are younger than the person that you're talking about, they're considered old to you. But that threshold never really exists because they're always gonna be younger than someone I don't know.

Annie Hartnett: 6:14

If you are, if you're 63 and you're hanging out with 90 year olds, you're gonna feel like you don't relate to the way their

Jason Blitman: 6:25

And you're and you could call yourself young

Annie Hartnett: 6:27

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:28

in fact, but if you're hanging out with 23 year olds, You're olds Conundrum. Conundrum, Annie.

Annie Hartnett: 6:35

Yeah, even we were in the airport a couple weeks ago and I was, there was like this food court and there were all these college students eating Chick-fil-A and I was like, one, I did not know how college students felt about Chick-fil-A.

Jason Blitman: 6:50

It's upsetting to this gay person.

Annie Hartnett: 6:52

they, yeah, it's I just didn't, I didn't know that every single college student, and I was also just struck by these are babies. These are small children who are having sex and doing drugs and eating Chick-fil-A, and they just look so young to me. So

Jason Blitman: 7:11

I feel like you just titled your next book.

Annie Hartnett: 7:16

sex and drugs and Chick-fil-A

Jason Blitman: 7:18

Yes.

Annie Hartnett: 7:20

done?

Jason Blitman: 7:21

But we need to call it something else because we can't give Chick-fil-A that promotion. It could just be fried chicken, sex and jugs and fried chicken.

Annie Hartnett: 7:28

that, that is a good title.

Jason Blitman: 7:30

I would read that. I don't even care what it's, especially if you wrote it. I like know what it's about. It's about an old man.

Annie Hartnett: 7:36

Oh man, that would be maybe more exciting to me. An old man, sex and Drinks and Chick-fil-A, but yeah, I already wrote that book.

Jason Blitman: 7:45

That's totally fair. Okay. Road to tender hearts. It is about an old man. It is about pj. Do you have a one liner, a two

Annie Hartnett: 7:52

I don't have a one-liner, as having read both. My first book, rabbit Cake, you can do a one-liner, but it's really hard to do a one-liner with tender hearts and unlikely animals. But, so here's my not one-liner elevator pitch. Pretend we got stuck at four three. So the Road to Tender Hearts is about an older man named PJ who is reading the obituaries. Of his hometown newspaper and comes across the obituary of his high school. Oh, his high school friend. And he realizes that if that friend is dead, then the woman that man married is single again. And so he decides to drive cross country to win his high school crush back. So that's one sentence, but then also

Jason Blitman: 8:40

I know. I was like, wait, but there's a whole other storyline that we're missing. This is child erasure.

Annie Hartnett: 8:46

Yeah. Yeah. But then also he ends up before he can leave on the trip he ends up with the surprise custody of his great niece and great nephew and his daughter his biological daughter is concerned that her dad is, has custody of these children. So she comes along on the trip and so does a stray cat who can predict death. Yeah, so that's the whole car

Jason Blitman: 9:14

Animals and death. Animals Plus death equals an Annie Hartnett book and plus, I guess plus old men. Right? Where does that, so I, it's, I feel like that intermingled, which is like this Mac Coness about your style and your super dry humor all mixes together to create a person who I'm like. Guessing who you are as a person, but really to just sum it up, it you cr I'm death animals that we can see we can hear what they're thinking and a gr colorful group of characters. Show us a lot about your sense of humor.

Annie Hartnett: 10:01

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 10:01

Where does your sense of humor come from?

Annie Hartnett: 10:05

My sense of humor definitely just comes from my family, like how I was brought up. Although we don't all have the same sense of humor, I feel like it's an Irish sense of humor that's like the black, black comedy. And then I grew up in a town that is I don't know, predominantly Jewish or half Jewish. I don't know what the percentage is, but it's a town with a lot of Jewish people in it. So I feel like there's also Jewish humor and Irish humor are similar. And then my family everyone's funny in their own way. Although they're, there is definitely like a attitude of just laughing no matter what, and making fun of people no matter what. Like kicking people when they're down for a joke is totally acceptable in, in the family, but also accepting people in for whoever they are. So there's this we'll make fun of you, but we will love you no matter. We I've told this story a couple times that is horrific that I had my grandfather who was. He is PJ Holiday is named after my dad, PJ Hartnett, and then his dad, my grandfather was also PJ Hartnett, so there's two PJs. And so I was, I really wanted to be direct about I'm really basing it on these men in my life. And my grandfather died when I was. 16 and he was just like the patriarch, the like glue of the family. Everyone looked up to him. He was he was just a, he was just a character. And his famous quote was to my grandmother I can drive better drunk than you can sober. And so we always say that to each other. Which is totally that's the inappropriate humor. And so when we were Catholic at the time when he died, and so he had an open casket and my high school boyfriend came to the the wake and my uncle put this poor 16-year-old boy in a headlock and put him up to the dead body and was like, I'm so glad you got to meet the old guy. And like child abuse. Um, It was funny. It was horrific.

Jason Blitman: 12:25

That's, that makes total sense to me. You said you were Catholic at the time.

Annie Hartnett: 12:31

Oh yeah. When no one, none of no one is Catholic anymore. People

Jason Blitman: 12:36

That was just a very deliberate thing of a deliberate way of

Annie Hartnett: 12:39

I have to separate myself. It, we stopped going to my, my family, my parents were both Irish Catholic growing up. And so when they had children, they didn't really know what to do with our religious upbringing and their college roommate, or my dad's college roommate was visiting and they were talking about it and. He didn't have kids yet, but so he, they listened to what he said and he said you wanna give them something to reject so that they don't come home from college total. Like strangers who have found like, some super religion. So that was my parents. That's, there was their philosophy, except like we went to church and we went it wasn't like a little bit of exposure. We went to church, we went to CCD but then the, the scandals came out and at the same time that my other grandfather died and he was my other grandfather was an amazing guy and was like really active in the civil rights movement and was a principal and. Boston public schools and was a cool person and this priest reduced him to like, should have gone to church more wasn't as active in the church as he could have been. So it was a kind of a, the perfect storm of we are not, none of us are doing this anymore.

Jason Blitman: 14:04

Yeah.

Annie Hartnett: 14:05

so I was never confirmed. So I'm not a Catholic in anyone's eyes,

Jason Blitman: 14:09

I never had a bar mitzvah, so I am still a child

Annie Hartnett: 14:13

oh yeah. We will get you a DJ and a cartoonist and we'll play Coke and Pepsi.

Jason Blitman: 14:22

and someone who does the, like spray paint hats

Annie Hartnett: 14:25

Oh, yes. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 14:26

Yeah. And like cool socks for the dance floor. So you were talking about PJ and it being based on, or inspired by whatever term feels comfortable for you your dad and your grandfather. He has a very modern and unconventional relationship with Ivy, his ex-wife and Fred, her boyfriend. They lived down the road. I don't need to, I don't need to tell you. You could tell the listeners and. Where does that come from? Do you have examples of that in your life? It was such a just a, like a modern hip way of defining what a post-marriage could look like.

Annie Hartnett: 15:05

Yeah it I do I don't know if I have real life examples of that. I have in my. In my life though, examples of a lot of men who are very dependent on women. He, PJ and Ivy got divorced let's see, like 10 years ago, let's say. I don't, I forget the exact timeline, but he's still very dependent on her, has breakfast with her every morning, like worships her, but also he is. He is openhearted enough to also love her new boyfriend, and he knows that he's a fuck up and that he knows that like he doesn't blame Ivy for leaving him. He blames like his life circumstances, but he they went, so they went through a tragedy 15 years earlier that their oldest daughter died. So the question I wanted to ask was, how does how does, married couple recover, how do they move on from. Having a child die. And I think a lot of marriages don't survive that. So I did, and I did not think that their marriage would survive that based on this character I was creating. Pj unless Ivy was gonna spend the rest of her life unhappy, but they still love each other. Like they she still, she doesn't love him, doesn't love him in the way that she wants to be married to him, but she doesn't wanna cut him off either. And then so they, yeah, they developed this friendship that is a really nice friendship. And then, Fred is an evolved enough creature that he's accepting of PJ too. Everybody loves pj. He's so messed up and he's he's so imperfect, to have a character who has three DUIs, but asking. You two, think he is wonderful, is a lot, but he, so he won the lottery. He's if it were a Tom Hanks movie, it would be like the luckiest man in small town Pineville if it weren't for, the tragedies of his life. And so yeah, so he's had some real luck where he won a million and a half dollars. But he's a hoarder. He lives alone. His ex-wife left him. But she stays friends with him. And then, but he, and he gives away all of his money to anyone who asks, which is really what is one of the main things that is based on my dad. No one please, no one. The man is not on the internet. Do not tell him about GoFundMe because he would like, he. He just will always, he's so generous, will always buy people dinner. I did an in conversation with my friend Claire Beans, who's a wonderful writer. And we went out in celebration for her book launch with all her like friends from. All the many walks of Boston and like my dad doesn't know Claire, and he covered the restaurant bill. And I was like, dad, like why? That's and yeah, so he saw, once he saw, he's not like a really wealthy guy. It's

Jason Blitman: 18:15

did not win the lottery.

Annie Hartnett: 18:17

no, he did not win the lottery. Although he, part of it is inspired by that because he will always play Powerball and he will then. He will talk to me about what will happen if he wins Powerball and who's gonna get, say he won wins$68 million. And he'll be like, all right, I will give your aunt a million dollars. I will give. And he just goes down and I'm like, dad, please don't think about this.

Jason Blitman: 18:46

Because the odds are not in your

Annie Hartnett: 18:49

not gonna happen. You don't need to make a plan. And then he, like he, he will, he was watching the news once and there was this Chinese restaurant where there was like this racist incident against the owners and he sent them a check in the mail and now he's like friends with those it wasn't even in his town. It's just he's so generous, but also in this sort of way that you're like, uh. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. Not like he's not, in the poor house or anything,

Jason Blitman: 19:19

No, but maybe you don't need to send the check to the restaurant of the people that you never met, or,

Annie Hartnett: 19:23

Yes. But so seriously, GoFundMe he's not on Facebook.

Jason Blitman: 19:27

Won't tell

Annie Hartnett: 19:27

God he's never been on. Yeah. Don't tell

Jason Blitman: 19:29

what would you do?

Annie Hartnett: 19:30

I have a little bit of the same problem that like I've never played Powerball. I like scratch tickets a lot. But like scratch tickets, you're never gonna win that much money. I think I did play like Mega Millions once, and then I did find myself in the same sort of oh, obviously I'm gonna win, so what am I gonna do with it? Like, how much would I give to charity? I think the question of. Of when you win that much money is how much do you keep so it makes your life better and doesn't ruin your life. And I think the answer would be like, I would keep$10 million and then I would give the rest to a global warming charity because I would not wanna I, and that would be, I would just throw it all

Jason Blitman: 20:17

However much it was.

Annie Hartnett: 20:18

Yeah. however much it was.

Jason Blitman: 20:19

What's like the one extravagant thing you would do for yourself?

Annie Hartnett: 20:23

oh

Jason Blitman: 20:24

I have no idea what that answer is for me.

Annie Hartnett: 20:26

Yeah, I'm not like an extravagant person. We have driven with a car that is missing a door for a year.

Jason Blitman: 20:36

A whole door.

Annie Hartnett: 20:37

It's, the door was reattached, but not all the way. So it like has a big gap in it.

Jason Blitman: 20:45

Does it just rattle the whole

Annie Hartnett: 20:46

It's, I just drove my friend to I had to teach in Maine and my friend came along and she was like, I'm sorry. I was like, is your window down? And I was like, oh no it's, my car and our neighbor who is a mechanic, put the car door back on for us.'cause my husband was, he was in a rush to get to me. So we for the first time had two cars at the time. We finally, we'd lived with only one car for as long as we've been married. But we got two cars last fall. And so he was rushing to me, to switch off with me so I could go to an event.'cause he was at, I was at dance class with our kid and he was driving outta the driveway and there was like a. The light on that said the door was open, which is always the trunk and the Honda fit. If people have Honda fits, it always happens to the, so he got outta the car and he is on the phone with me I'm on my way, I'm on my way. And he was just like overtly stressed for no reason. And so the car kept driving and ripped the door off, and it was, so we had our neighbor, who's the mechanic come to.

Jason Blitman: 21:51

Wait a minute. Hold on. I would need to go back and make sure that I'm understanding this correctly. The trunk was, the light for the trunk was on. Your husband gets out of the car, leaves the door open, leaves the car running, the car keeps moving,

Annie Hartnett: 22:05

car keeps moving and he's on the phone with me and he is oh shit shit, shit. So the other funny thing about it is they're, they don't make Honda Fits anymore. So he had to drive, I guess this is all related to the book, it's a road

Jason Blitman: 22:21

No, you know what hundred percent is.

Annie Hartnett: 22:24

So he ended up driving to Connecticut to get a door and because, so we had to act fast because the body shop is like, there's only one Honda Fit Door left in all of New England. So he drove from where we live in Massachusetts.

Jason Blitman: 22:41

it's a Honda, doesn't fit door.

Annie Hartnett: 22:44

Oh, good one. So we got a we have a silver car. Her name is Helen Muran'cause she's a silver fox. We get a white door and they put it in the back of the Honda Fit and he drives back home. And this was a year ago or? 11 months ago to be accurate. And guess what is still in the back of the Honda Fit and we can't get it out.

Jason Blitman: 23:17

A tree branch.

Annie Hartnett: 23:19

no, there is a white door, a car door in the trunk, or like the whole back seat of the door car. So we have a car that has like a door that is like three inches a jar. And then there's a car, white car door in the back of the Honda Fit and it's jammed in there, so we can't get it out.

Jason Blitman: 23:41

Wait, so the Honda Fit door that he went to go pick up got stuck in the backseat.

Annie Hartnett: 23:45

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 23:50

What? Wait, why didn't they just install it at the body shop?

Annie Hartnett: 23:54

I, it was like a junky yard place. Like it wasn't like a,

Jason Blitman: 23:58

Oh my God.

Annie Hartnett: 24:00

and we.

Jason Blitman: 24:03

Your books make so much more sense now.

Annie Hartnett: 24:09

they're, oh yeah. They're not comedies. It's just real

Jason Blitman: 24:11

Oh my god, that's so not only is a door slightly ajar, it's the driver's side

Annie Hartnett: 24:18

You can't, but you can't. Yeah. It's the driver's side

Jason Blitman: 24:20

right?

Annie Hartnett: 24:21

and you can't sit in the back because there's a car door.

Jason Blitman: 24:28

I'm like seeing stars. I'm laughing so hard. That is so funny. So a road, obviously you don't do road trips with this car,

Annie Hartnett: 24:38

No, don't. I did just drive five hours

Jason Blitman: 24:41

friend. Yeah. Yeah. But like other I mean like a family road trip you're not

Annie Hartnett: 24:45

So I can't even pick my kid up at school in that class.

Jason Blitman: 24:49

but are road trips like a thing in your family?

Annie Hartnett: 24:52

We did a road trip around Ireland.

Jason Blitman: 24:57

Oh.

Annie Hartnett: 24:58

like we never would go outta the country, except that was the only like international trip we ever went on as a family. And we mom planned it out pre, pre. Pre iPhones. So she had this map and we didn't have a plan of, we were gonna spend the night every night. But you could just drive around Ireland and stop at b and B's. So that's what we did. in a small car, my dad in the, he would drive most, for most of the trip. He could only come for two weeks. And then my mom was left with me and my three brother or two brothers the rest of the trip. So three of us in the back. And my little brother, like immediately threw up. So we would always make him sit in the same seat and just call it the throw up seat. And we would taunt him the whole time. And he he ended up I ran out of books to read because I, I had brought like as many red walls as I could probably pack, but I was in fifth grade and I ran outta books to read. Two formative things happened on that trip I borrowed my brother's book that he had bought in the airport called True Irish Ghost Stories. And I was so spooked.'cause they were, I was like, they're true. I was just like, obviously

Jason Blitman: 26:15

says so in the title.

Annie Hartnett: 26:17

it says so right there. So I was terrified during the entire trip and I like didn't sleep and I drove everyone crazy. And then at the end of the trip my mom was tired of driving around country, so she found like a little house to rent like somewhere, I think it was in like Donal or something. And so we stopped for a week. I. And it was all these little cabins and I was so crazy at that point'cause I had not slept for a month. And and it was, there was a little like dinky playground in the middle of these cabins. And every day there would be kids out on the playground. And at some point I was like, there's fewer and fewer kids on the playground every day. Obviously they're being murdered. And so I told my little. Yeah, by the true ghost actually I had changed it to now it's a serial killer in my mind. So I told my, I was in fifth grade. My brother's four years younger than me, so he was in first grade. I told this like baby child, that the reason we had fewer kids to play with every day is because they were being killed. But I told him not to worry because they were seven cabins and we were leaving on the sixth day. So I had done the math that I was like, they'll never get to us. Don't worry, it's not our concern. So that is that is the most messed up thing I've ever done before since,

Jason Blitman: 27:49

wow. And that changed your life because now you write the way you write,

Annie Hartnett: 27:54

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:54

and that was your road trip.

Annie Hartnett: 27:56

that was my road trip.

Jason Blitman: 27:57

You've never done like an in, in the states road trip.

Annie Hartnett: 28:00

I did an in the states road trip, but not with my own family. I did an in the states road trip I was in college and I had just broken up with my boyfriend who I had for five years and I needed to get outta town'cause I. We could not be around each, I could not get back together with him. I needed to take myself outta the town. My friends went to Bard and their friends had just just graduated this couple, and they were. Going to try to move. They couldn't decide whether they were gonna, she was from San Francisco, he was from Seattle. We were driving back from Massachusetts to Seattle and then we were gonna go down to San Francisco and they didn't know which city they were gonna live in. So they just were arguing about it the whole way and their relationship was falling apart. I didn't know them. They were my friend's friends. One thing I just loved about this road trip is that we wanted to get to San Francisco. We wanted to get to Seattle or first, and then down to San Francisco, but we had no other real plans, like which is the best way to do a road trip. Especially across the United States.'cause there's just so much weird stuff, which if you stop at all the roadside attractions, like both the ones that people know about people are like, make sure to stop at Wal Drug. Make sure to stop at like the Corn Palace. but I also didn't know about like even some,'cause I was 21 and there were many things about life I didn't know. Many things I still don't know, but I didn't know about the Badlands and so when we drove into the Badlands just appear outta nowhere and you're like. Whoa. There's the moon is just right here in the middle of nowhere and you can just it's cra it looks crazy. And so it was, so that was a really memorable experience, both trying to get over somebody and then having these all like really fun, weird experiences with these people who became my friends, but were. Two of them, out of the three of them were total strangers. And then when we got to Seattle Thomas, who was Dr. Who was one of the drivers, was he had, his family had a, a really nice camp on one of the San Juan Islands. So we went over to the San Juan Islands, which are unbelievably beautiful, and his dad and his whole family was there and his dad was there. And his dad was one of those people who gets up at 4:30 AM and is just like, is was building his own house. And had these, had built these incredible outhouses made out of driftwood, which didn't have doors on them so that you could look out at the ocean.

Jason Blitman: 30:41

going to the bathroom.

Annie Hartnett: 30:43

Yes. Which were like and it was just like all this sort of memorable stuff, but I was so exhausted by the time I got there that I was like I'm still broken hearted and I just want to like, so I spent one entire day in bed when we were there and we all gathered around for dinner and there were a lot of people there. And we also saw this homeschooled one school house. Production of Macbeth that the children put on, which I feel like was super formative in a lot of my work and like making children do things that they're like really should not be doing in any appropriate way. but we're sitting around the table and someone asked oh, Annie, what did you do today? I didn't see you today. And somehow the dad knew and he just goes, in my voice, he says. I napped and I cried,

Jason Blitman: 31:37

Oh, you were red like a bug.

Annie Hartnett: 31:40

I hear his voice in my head. I'm not even touch in touch with Thomas or his family anymore, but sometimes when I'm feeling bad for myself, I'll just hear this voice in my head that goes, I napped and I cried.

Jason Blitman: 31:52

If you are no longer in touch for just happenstance reasons, you should reach out and tell him that. I feel like that's very funny.

Annie Hartnett: 32:00

I should. I should. I really should. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:02

There is a character in the book who worked for a greeting card company. And it just so happens that at the time of recording my birthday was a couple of days ago and I got a birthday card from my mother who. Has sent me the same card, I think six years almost in a row. Not fully in a row, but had I've received the same card from her six times. Not exaggeration, no exaggeration. We need to change it up. Who do we need to write to? We

Annie Hartnett: 32:35

it? What does it

Jason Blitman: 32:37

It's so generic. There's nothing. It. There's nothing particularly special about it.

Annie Hartnett: 32:43

But it does have words on it. It like speaks to her in some way.

Jason Blitman: 32:46

Yes. All these years it's been nothing short of magical watching you become who you are today, is what it says on the front, and then you know, some version of that inside.

Annie Hartnett: 32:55

That's a pretty nice sentiment.

Jason Blitman: 32:57

It's so nice. But Hallmark needs to know when to retire a card and bring in

Annie Hartnett: 33:05

it up so that they have to do the work for

Jason Blitman: 33:09

Yes, exactly. But also I don't know if you, if this is based on a person, in real life, am I going on a rant right now about greeting cards? Yes, because.

Annie Hartnett: 33:18

I've been on a few tangents.

Jason Blitman: 33:21

I, they are infuriating to me the fact that like people get paid real money to write. Wishing you a lovely day on your birthday, on your day of birth,

Annie Hartnett: 33:34

Yeah I think those jobs will go away. Thanks, Dan. So you'll get yours. You win.

Jason Blitman: 33:44

I, that's maybe true, but how do we become a greeting card writer? Should we start our own company? We could come up with quirky things and you could draw them.

Annie Hartnett: 33:54

yeah I did start a grading card company.

Jason Blitman: 33:57

What?

Annie Hartnett: 33:58

Yeah. It wasn't successful

Jason Blitman: 34:00

Say more. Tell me everything. Was it called full of heart net?

Annie Hartnett: 34:05

no, it was it was full of heart. I was 22 and I was living in basically a commune, but it was it was like a outdoor school where we would teach like every week that, so in ca, in, in California, outdoor education is mandated, so like kids in either the fifth or sixth grade have to go. To basically summer camp for a week and learn about the outdoors in the outdoors. So there's these camps, like they're usually summer camps that are then like, rented out during the year by these companies where you're, if you the, there's young people like 20 somethings who work there and live there, and every week you get a busload of fifth graders and you teach them the exact same stuff every single week. And so we would teach them, about the water cycle. We'd take them on hikes and we would teach them about I don't remember what el, what else we taught, but like science in the outdoors. And then we'd also do like ropes course, and tr it was like bonding as well as and then so with the other counselors, we worked there and lived there and had a empty summer camp on the weekends. So it was just this. Wild experience. And during my downtime I was, I'm always looking for, I just have a lot of, extra creative energy. This was before I was really writing, I think so decided to start a business. And at the time my, my best friend's mom was dying of breast cancer. So I decided to start a business called T Nips Greeting Cards, and it was made out of, so you probably made

Jason Blitman: 36:01

I wonder why I didn't do well.

Annie Hartnett: 36:04

You probably made art projects with like hand prints, thumbprints that like you turn into an So I had me and all my other friends sit around and we made nipple prints in paint. And then I made drawings with those prints and and a lot of my friends still have them framed in their house. But I didn't really do very well selling them, but my dad loved the idea and he wa he was like, we gotta make this an LLC.

Jason Blitman: 36:37

He is gonna be your investor with his lottery money.

Annie Hartnett: 36:42

So that was my grading card company. So if

Jason Blitman: 36:46

feel like we could maybe circle back.

Annie Hartnett: 36:54

Yeah. So if,

Jason Blitman: 36:56

follow up questions. That's where a different podcast Oh my god. A person needs three things to be happy, something to do, someone to love, and something to look forward to. What are those three things for you?

Annie Hartnett: 37:17

Yeah. So that's a quote from the book that

Jason Blitman: 37:19

it is

Annie Hartnett: 37:20

is yeah, but I, but the backstory's really important to me. I grew up I had these like surrogate grandparents who grew up who lived across the street from me, and their names were Mrs. Chris and Dr. Chris. And Mrs. Chris had us a reading club for for the little girls in the neighborhood'cause her kids were grown. So we would go over to her house every Wednesday and she would read to us and serve us tea and cookies. And it was like, and we did it until sixth grade. Like she would read to us, we read so many books and then she switched it to a writing club. So that was the first writing club I was part of.

Jason Blitman: 37:58

God.

Annie Hartnett: 37:59

And then Dr. Chris is this was this cardiologist. He was like this renowned cardiologist, but he was mostly retired when I was growing up. And he played piano and he was the, he gave me EB white's essays when he found out I was interested in like animals and writing and together they learned Italian and they had adopted another kid as well as their four kids and they just had this. She's still alive and they had this really interesting full life. And like she, she's a poll worker. She would call me if I hadn't showed up to the elections. So when I think of someone who has had a good life, they have had a truly good life. They have done good things. They have, they have their retirement just looked like. People should try to learn Italian after they retire so that they can go to Italy. So they just, they had a good life, especially from when I was able to observe it when they were older. And she's still alive. She's in her nineties. She is still as sharp as tack. Yeah she's amazing. Like she, she's not any different than she was when I was growing up. She now lives like 40 minutes from me, so I get to see her sometimes. And Dr. Chris died two years ago. And so at his funeral, this was something his son said, is that the advice that Dr. Chris always gave him was that everyone needs something to do, someone to love and something to look forward to. And that's the key to happiness if you can fulfill all those things. And I was, I just had such, he was gone by then, so he never said it to me, but it just was like such simple and really. Good advice.

Jason Blitman: 39:39

And really from someone who meant a lot to you. Okay. The story was so much thank you for, it's breaking to tell me this whole thing'cause it really was worth it.

Annie Hartnett: 39:47

yeah. Sorry. It I can't follow directions, but,

Jason Blitman: 39:50

No, don't be sorry. I didn't tell you not to.

Annie Hartnett: 39:52

Yeah, no it really, yes. So it's said by, a character who, if you hear the story and then read the book, you'll. What but so something to do for me

Jason Blitman: 40:08

You're not allowed to say writing

Annie Hartnett: 40:10

I'm not allowed to say writing something to do. So something to do, someone to love and something to look forward to. I'm not allowed to say writing, we live now, we moved out of Providence and we live in Lakeville, Massachusetts, which is the town that Pineville in the book is based on, it's rural and I don't really know anyone here. I have friends, but they're not in this town. So I'm just very dedicated to making the space that I have in my yard like a habitat space. So I'm, I got into gardening last year. I do have a friend who's a super gardener, so she's helped me with it. And then we have bird, we have blue bird boxes. And And even I learned from the guy who owned the house before, he was also really into. Habitats like having wood piles in your yard is really good for snakes. Learning that stuff, especially, we are so powerless against most things that are happening, but like the.

Jason Blitman: 41:13

What

Annie Hartnett: 41:16

And I, I don't know what to do about I'm, I think a lot of us are just paralyzed. It's what's gonna happen? So having that concrete thing where I can I can feel like I'm making a difference to So that's one thing I can

Jason Blitman: 41:30

something to do and see. I'm glad I said you're not allowed to say writing'cause that is a

Annie Hartnett: 41:33

Oh, yeah. Okay good. Yeah, I mean that, that's something that I'm actively and I learned that from my parents too. My parents live much more in the suburbs, but my mom, my dad puts out little bowls of water for the rabbits, and my mom is, yeah. Yeah. My mom is a super bird watcher. Yeah, my parents are really awesome. They're I'm very lucky with them.

Jason Blitman: 41:57

That there's, there are levels of bird watchers, like novice, mediocre. But she's a super bird watcher.

Annie Hartnett: 42:06

she's an award winning bird watcher

Jason Blitman: 42:08

Is she Actually,

Annie Hartnett: 42:10

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 42:10

Oh the amount of follow up questions I have for this whole conversation, Annie.

Annie Hartnett: 42:20

I just feel like so comfortable with you. I'm like, not usually the silly, but um,

Jason Blitman: 42:25

your brand.

Annie Hartnett: 42:26

yeah, no, that is my brand. But no I just feel like, yes, this is this is fun for me. The, yeah, no, my mom, we have to get a table. Like I have to make sure I don't have a book event that,'cause she's getting this big award. But what's really funny is that, my dad, they have been together since they were 18. Lost their virginities to each other, which my mom would absolutely kill me for saying. But um,

Jason Blitman: 42:54

Good for them.

Annie Hartnett: 42:55

when, oh my gosh. When I when,

Jason Blitman: 42:57

on gay's reading.

Annie Hartnett: 42:58

When I, like when the boyfriend, the road trip boyfriend, when we broke up, my mom asked me. What does a broken heart feel like? And I was like, oh my God, you don't know. And I was like, it feels bad, mom. It feels super bad.

Jason Blitman: 43:14

astonishing.

Annie Hartnett: 43:15

Yeah. There's not that many people that I'm like, you don't, you have no idea what it feels

Jason Blitman: 43:20

That's a very interesting story of someone who never had their heart broken.

Annie Hartnett: 43:25

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 43:25

Like I don't even, I don't know what that feels like,

Annie Hartnett: 43:29

yeah, it's different. It doesn't feel. It's similar to a death, but it's not a death.

Jason Blitman: 43:34

right.

Annie Hartnett: 43:35

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:36

Anyway,

Annie Hartnett: 43:37

anyway, but what's funny to me is that there's this other bird watcher who's like a real, like a celebrity bird watcher who calls our house sometimes. And my mom will knock over furniture to be like, he's on the phone and my dad gets pretty jealous. It's very funny. So that's something to do, something someone to

Jason Blitman: 44:00

You're not allowed to say your husband or your child

Annie Hartnett: 44:03

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 44:04

again, it's just too much of, too easy of an answer.

Annie Hartnett: 44:07

easy. This is a funny thing for me to say.'cause I just said I live in this town where I don't really I am gonna keep it. Who knows? You never know who you're gonna meet. But I'm like chronically lonely also, and just, I love people and I like, I'm always like. I, I want to like, I want best friends all the time. I have these real strong memories of like summer camp and college and like those feel those when you had your friends that lived with you all the time and you were really comfortable just holding hands and climbing into bed together and watching a movie and like adult.

Jason Blitman: 44:44

Yeah.

Annie Hartnett: 44:45

Yeah. And adult friendships aren't that way so much. But I do. It really is, I, one thing that none of my college friends live near me. We just went on vacation with one of my college friends and we went, she works for Save the Children. Which is was being gutted and she was just like texting me like, I might lose my job. And even if I don't, I'm working in this like completely, carved out organization And,

Jason Blitman: 45:19

was like, let me call PJ Hartnett. He'll save the day by donating money.

Annie Hartnett: 45:24

She, what our solution is a pretty funny one. She said but at least she has four pomeranians no kids but often has to travel for work. Her Pomeranians are EU citizens, which she told me and I was like, they have EU passports. They're Pomeranians. They were born in Berlin where she used to live in Berlin. Anyway, she said, I don't have to travel for work, so if you wanna go somewhere. So my kid had been pestering me to go to Disney World. And so I was like, this is probably not what you had in mind, but do you wanna go to Disney World? So she came to Disney World with us and it was the best time. So someone to love is someone like that friend who will do that is, that is really fun and silly.

Jason Blitman: 46:13

can. Does she have a name? Can we shout her

Annie Hartnett: 46:15

Oh, her name is Winter. Yeah, her name is

Jason Blitman: 46:17

Of course. Her fucking name is Winter. Of course. Of course. Winter has four Pomeranians that have a U, passports, like of course. That's her name.

Annie Hartnett: 46:27

She started out with only two and she was living in Germany and they don't Spain neuter in Germany until they're a year old. So she took them, she had just decided that she didn't wanna have kids and she was like having panic attacks about like having children. She was like, no, I'm always, I like my freedom, I just don't wanna have children. And I was like, good choice. But even though I'm obsessed with my child, but I did think it was a good choice. And she went to the vet and the vet was like, oh, we can't. One of these dogs is pregnant, and I don't, and so I was like, this is so funny. You wanted your freedom and now you have four.

Jason Blitman: 47:13

I'm shocked that hasn't made it into one of your books yet.

Annie Hartnett: 47:15

Oh, I should,

Jason Blitman: 47:16

Shout out to winter. And okay. What about something to look forward to?

Annie Hartnett: 47:20

Something to look forward to. So it probably cannot be book related.

Jason Blitman: 47:23

You are right. Good job. Can't be booked to her. Can't be released.

Annie Hartnett: 47:28

Can't be released. Something to look forward to. I dunno. Just think about all the things that are going on right now. Um,

Jason Blitman: 47:37

Hopeless. It feels like there's nothing to look forward to.

Annie Hartnett: 47:40

Let's see. Something to look forward to. I'm a New Englander. And I just love seasons changing. And so just like seasons changing is I'm about to garden and my birthday is coming up, so April 22nd, so I You're an Aries,

Jason Blitman: 48:00

an Aries.

Annie Hartnett: 48:00

Taurus, I'm a,

Jason Blitman: 48:02

Oh interesting. Thinking about something to look forward to can reset every day.

Annie Hartnett: 48:07

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 48:08

Like you could look forward to something tomorrow and then you could have a new, something to look forward to the next day and that just keeps the buoy of being happy in

Annie Hartnett: 48:16

I also finally understand why people go on vacation. I had never been on a vacation other, like I had never as an adult, like I'd gone on family trips, went to Ireland as but we never, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 48:29

get it together, drew.

Annie Hartnett: 48:30

Oh, drew does not like to go on

Jason Blitman: 48:32

What the hell?

Annie Hartnett: 48:33

No. Drew's. The Drew's the only man in the entire world who brought a laptop to Disney World.

Jason Blitman: 48:41

Wait, are you counting Disney World with your child and winter as vacation?

Annie Hartnett: 48:46

It's the only vacation I've ever been on,

Jason Blitman: 48:48

Oh,

Annie Hartnett: 48:49

but I

Jason Blitman: 48:50

and sad. But I'm happy for you. But that sounds like a lot of work with a Kit Disney,

Annie Hartnett: 48:57

Oh, is. She's almost, she'll be six this summer. Like I saw people with really young children there, and I'm like, oh, you are in hell.

Jason Blitman: 49:06

No. Six is probably fun to be there.

Annie Hartnett: 49:08

yeah. It was totally fun. It was just like fun, like pure

Jason Blitman: 49:12

Did you get to sit by the pool and relax at all?

Annie Hartnett: 49:15

No, I've never done something like that. Like I've never,

Jason Blitman: 49:20

And you can also be excited for book launch and book tour and all those things.

Annie Hartnett: 49:24

I am excited because it is a book that I like when people have the same share my sense of humor. I like when people tell me what made them laugh, and I'm like, yeah, that was messed up, wasn't it?

Jason Blitman: 49:36

So when the book arrived, I like was so obsessed with unlikely animal. I mean, The amount of people I told had to read it is endless. But when this book arrived, literally I read the epigraph. Was like, I need her. I don't even care what the rest of the book is. If I only have to talk to her about the epigraph. That's all I need to do.'cause that's how funny it is. It's, there's a national lampoons vacation quote and a quote from Papa Hartnett.

Annie Hartnett: 50:07

What does the Papa Harding one say?

Jason Blitman: 50:09

Shut up and look out the window.

Annie Hartnett: 50:16

yeah, so that was from that was from the Irish vacation. So that's why I didn't go on any vacations after that.

Jason Blitman: 50:24

Oh my God. So funny. Annie. Such a pleasure having you. Thank you for being here today

Annie Hartnett: 50:30

Thanks for having me so much.

Jason Blitman: 50:32

Everyone go by the Road to Tender Hearts by Annie Hartnett. Go by unlikely animals. Go by rabbit cake and follow you on all of the social medias and such to be abreast of all the things. You mark my, my third. You are a third complete couple to on gay's reading,

Debbie Millman: 50:50

Oh wow.

Jason Blitman: 50:51

a nicer compliment than a, than a second half of a couple who's happy to come on the show.

Debbie Millman: 50:57

Yeah. Well, Roxanne had a lot of very nice things to say about you.

Jason Blitman: 51:01

That's very, very sweet. How are you today?

Debbie Millman: 51:03

I am in my office at the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan. And um, after this I'm going to go to Frenchtown, New Jersey, where I'm having a pre-book launch event, um, with a very dear friend of mine, um, that I know from the design community who ended up buying, renovating, and now running a bookstore.

Jason Blitman: 51:29

Oh my God,

Debbie Millman: 51:30

Yeah, Barbara de Wilde, she's extraordinary. French Town bookstore is just beautiful.

Jason Blitman: 51:36

that sounds amazing.

Debbie Millman: 51:37

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 51:38

I, after reading your book this morning, went around to all of my houseplant to just like give them love.'cause

Debbie Millman: 51:47

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 51:48

just needed to.

Debbie Millman: 51:49

Oh good. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 51:51

And I wanna hear about the book in a second. Um, Debbie Millman, I'm thrilled that you were on gay's reading and as today's guest, gay reader, the first, and obviously most important question is, what are you reading?

Debbie Millman: 52:02

I know I was actually, um, preparing and going through my, some of my books, my stack of books, and also my Kindle. Because of my podcast, I read a lot. I read a lot of books for. Prep for the show because I'm interviewing people that have just written books, so I'm gonna start with that.

Jason Blitman: 52:22

familiar.

Debbie Millman: 52:24

Yeah, so I interviewed John Key. You could probably see his book right there. Black Queer and Untold, which is incredible. It's an incredible book. You can have him on the show. He's amazing. I've recently read that, Adrian Tona was on the show recently and I read an incredible book of his. I've read a bunch of his, but I'm only gonna include one in this list. I read about four of his books. They're graphic novels. Um, but Killing and Dying is a tour divorce, just an absolute tour divorce. I had, I did a live interview with Seth Godin, um, at Creative Mornings at the very, very end of last year. I'm including this because I keep coming back to it as well. Um, and it's called, this is Strategy, and it's, it's a brilliant book, and I've also recommended that to all my students.

Jason Blitman: 53:14

what about it do you recommend your students or why? Why is it that you

Debbie Millman: 53:17

Well, I, I run a graduate program at the School of Visual Arts in branding, and Seth's book is one of the most. Concise and candid, um, overviews of what brand strategy, marketing strategy, and business strategy really truly is and what it entails to do well, and, and so that's why I'm including it. Um, I also run, I run two book clubs. I run a book club for Print magazine, which is, I'm, I'm a part owner and, and that's monthly and I run a book club for the Joyful Heart Foundation, which is quarterly. And, um, I'm very excited. I'm, I'm, I'm about to start reading The Tell by Amy Griffin.'cause that's our next book. But our last book was with our last book club was with Chanel Miller. And so I read her young adult novel. Um, Magnolia Woo Unfolds it all, and it's charming and delightful and beautifully illustrated. And I adore Chanel. Um, I read Sarah Lewis is the Unseen Truth, which is also a peer, um, which is also a really, really remarkable book. The Work of Art by Adam Moss, which is also two books below Black Queer, and then told, um, olden Art School by Nell Painter, which is also a terrific book about her going back to school to study art as a middle-aged woman

Jason Blitman: 55:00

Mm.

Debbie Millman: 55:01

and.

Jason Blitman: 55:02

those sorts of stories.

Debbie Millman: 55:03

And then just some books for me that I've only read for me because I, I wanted to and have enjoyed them.

Jason Blitman: 55:09

for you? Once you tell me your list? I need also need your advice of finding

Debbie Millman: 55:12

Okay, well, I fly a lot, so I, I also, and I need, I need to be able to read for just pure pleasure and not be like, you know, highlighting. I, I all for, for design matters, I always buy two copies of the book, the hard copy, and then a Kindle copy because in the old days I used to have to put. Post-its on every page and then underline things and then transcribe it all. But now all they do is highlight and, and then, uh, export them, which saves me a lot of time and, and ruining a lot of books. Um, especially if they're signed. Because if I interview somebody in person and I have their book, of course I ask them to sign it. Um, but I, I recently read, it's a, it's a little bit left of center here, um, a book called Seven Brief Lessons on Physics by Carlo Elli. Very easy to read. I am endlessly fascinated by how the universe works or what we think, or how we think the universe works. And, and these lessons are really, um. Language that anybody can understand, and it talks about electromagnetism and wavelengths and black holes and all the things that I spend endless amounts of time thinking about and can never come to any real conclusion or,

Jason Blitman: 56:31

end up on your radar in the first place? That

Debbie Millman: 56:33

well, I do read a lot of science books when I can. Um, that's just a,

Jason Blitman: 56:38

the world better?

Debbie Millman: 56:40

yeah, and, and just, and just because I love it, I, I also watch a lot of. Space documentaries and, yeah, I, I,

Jason Blitman: 56:49

we were just watching a, a deep blue documentary the other night,

Debbie Millman: 56:53

oh, nice. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 56:55

My husband has a degree in chemistry. He is very, very

Debbie Millman: 56:58

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 56:59

focused. know he, he teaches me a lot.

Debbie Millman: 57:03

So, so yeah. And then I also read All Fours by Miranda July, which I think everybody in the world has read at this point. And then most, most, most recently, um, the Backyard Bird Chronicles by Amy Tan, which I loved. I loved, and I also loved her illustra, her paintings, they're not even illustrations. They're beautiful. Beautiful photographs of paintings of birds, um, which is something else that I really love. I love birds. So yeah, that's just a, a list I have. I, I could have, I could continue.

Jason Blitman: 57:33

list.

Debbie Millman: 57:34

So I just finished a season of design matters, and so with a show, at least one show a week, and many, many people that are authors that have wr written more than one book, you know, I can't just read. Their most recent book. Also, I have to at least try to read some of their back list so it's, it can get very intense.

Jason Blitman: 57:55

that's where audio books come in handy for me.

Debbie Millman: 57:58

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 57:59

do audios with Backlist.

Debbie Millman: 58:01

Yeah. I don't, I don't do that. Um, yet, I haven't, I haven't made that transition yet. The only book, the only book that I've listened to was Barbara Streisand's memoir,

Jason Blitman: 58:12

It's

Debbie Millman: 58:13

but I, I had to stop, I had to stop Jason because it. I, I revere her. I, I revere her. You know, in a, in a previous life I was a gay man. I revere that. I mean,

Jason Blitman: 58:28

girl. Come on.

Debbie Millman: 58:30

and, and, and she reads it in a way that makes it seem like she's so friendly. And I'm like, I, I, I don't know that I could be your friend. I need to keep you on my pedestal. And so after like three chapters, I was like, I just need to read this. And, and hear it in a more formal manner in my head because she was too familiar. Like just too, it was too much. I love her so much that having her be that friendly and kind of funny. Not that she's not funny in, in every,

Jason Blitman: 59:04

was very, it was very close.

Debbie Millman: 59:07

yeah, I can't really explain it, but I was really, it was very disconcerting to have her in my ears in that way.

Jason Blitman: 59:14

so funny. You were like, Nope, I need a separation.

Debbie Millman: 59:17

Yeah. And also that book is beautiful. I mean, it's just gorgeous. The cover's gorgeous. It's a beautiful book.

Jason Blitman: 59:24

I couldn't believe how, mm, what's the word I want to use? I felt for Barbara Streisand is.

Debbie Millman: 59:36

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 59:37

oh, you are allowed to be B, capital S, Barbara Streisand. You can be whoever you want. You could walk into any room. You can

Debbie Millman: 59:46

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 59:46

you want and you've earned it.

Debbie Millman: 59:48

Yep. She's so humble. I mean, I couldn't get over it. And, and also the first couple of chapters, she talks so much about food. It's fabulous.

Jason Blitman: 59:59

If you wrote a food book, what would it be? About?

Debbie Millman: 1:00:01

Well, I just wrote a gardening book, which included Roxanne's menu recipe, kind of. I'm never gonna write a food book. My food book book would be how much I appreciate my wife's cooking by Debbie Melman.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:14

Um, I would read that. Okay. Before I wanna talk about your book,

Debbie Millman: 1:00:21

But let's keep talking about this. This is more fun. Do you want me to tell you a great story about Barbara Streisand?

Jason Blitman: 1:00:28

Yes.

Debbie Millman: 1:00:29

Okay. This is a story I often tell my students because I was so blown away by, by, by the whole thing. So it starts probably well over a decade ago. I was reading an article in the New Yorker about stage fright and, and how many people actually have stage fright. And they interviewed Barbara Streisand's manager because apparently Barbara Streisand has really terrible stage fright, which I didn't know. And apparently when she was very young and first getting started, the big public concert she did in Central Park, she forgot the lyrics to some of her songs or one of her songs. Now I could get up on stage and sing all of Barbara Streisand songs without losing any of the words. But that's beside the point. So apparently ever since then, that's why she didn't tour for so many decades because she had this terrible stage. Right. Yeah. Because she was afraid of, of not remembering her lines or her words of of songs. So that's part one.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:35

yeah.

Debbie Millman: 1:01:35

Next chapter. I saw her twice. I saw her at Madison Square Garden, which was amazing.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:41

Yes, me too.

Debbie Millman: 1:01:43

And, and I didn't think anything of it about, you know, I don't even know at that point if I had, if I had read the article in, in New Yorker about her stage fright. But then I went to the show at Barclay Center. And the tickets were crazy expensive and no one wanted to go with me, not for the price of the tickets. So I went by myself. I wore the t-shirt that I had gotten from the previous concert and, and I went, and when you're by yourself, you just notice so much more.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:14

Yeah.

Debbie Millman: 1:02:15

Now, oh, back to the first chapter. One of the things that struck me that the manager had said was that actually Barbara Streisand's greatest talent isn't her singing, acting, directing, decorating, none of that. What her greatest talent is, is doing all of those things while suffering from debilitating stage fright.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:35

Mm.

Debbie Millman: 1:02:36

So when I saw the second concert, I was by myself. And I, you know, sang along to Stony End and the way we were and all of the greats. And, but for whatever reason, I, I looked around a lot more than I had in the previous concert. And I looked up at one point at the ceiling of the Barclay Center and saw, tucked away among the wires and the lights was a teleprompter with all the lyrics. Of all the songs and my heart burst because she figured out how to hack away the stage fright and do it anyway. And, and I tell my students, if Barbara Streisand suffers from stage fright and has figured out a way to get around that and do it anyway, because the choice to do it is bigger than the fear, then you have no excuse.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:42

I saw the teleprompter, and I have to say, not only was it lyrics, it was also every joke, every line, everything, and even, even more brilliant than performing under those circumstances, she talk about what a performer she is. It was as though she wasn't reading,

Debbie Millman: 1:04:01

Right. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:03

was delivered as though it was off the top of her head, and I was like, you're fucking brilliant.

Debbie Millman: 1:04:07

It, yeah, I saw the same thing, all the, all the little nuances of that she was saying, which did really seem off the cuff. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:16

magical

Debbie Millman: 1:04:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:18

it happen like that. Anyway, obsessed love Barbara Streisand.

Debbie Millman: 1:04:24

For 20 minutes about garlic and me for 20 minutes about Babs, and there you have it.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:28

we go. Right on different coast to coast, the two of you. I wanna hear about your book and how it came to be. Love letter to a Garden. It is adorable. It is beautiful. And like I said, made me want to go love on my, my house plants.

Debbie Millman: 1:04:51

I see one beautiful one behind you.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:53

know I said to your publicist, I was like, I sort of just wanna take my camera around my house and make, have Debbie make sure I know that I'm taking care of them correctly.

Debbie Millman: 1:05:01

Oh, I would, yeah, but you can do that too.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:06

Oh my God. So funny. All right, so how did this book come to be?

Debbie Millman: 1:05:09

It was. One of the big surprises of my life, I have to tell you, I've had a lifelong journey to try and be a gardener, but most of my efforts have resulted in, utter failure really, and I started to get a little bit better. At planting things. When I started dating Roxanne because she had a beautiful house in Los Angeles with a front yard and a backyard, and they weren't. Really gardened. They were well manicured grass, your sort of standard shrubs, boxwoods, et cetera. Um, but because I had always tried to have gardens and was making one in New York, in my brownstone, albeit slowly and somewhat dubiously, and then during Covid, I, we decided that it would be better for me to go and stay with her in Los Angeles as opposed to her and come and stay with me in, um, in New York, mostly because we'd have a little bit more freedom, being able to drive around, have a car, be able to go to the beach, be able to sort of see more sky. I had started doing a lot of visual essays around my traveling. I do a lot. I go on a lot of expeditions, and I'm a big travel adventurer, and so the way that I have been documenting my, my, I. Ex escapades, which was also quite spontaneous, was to make these little visual essays. And I do a lot of work with the folks at Ted who run the TED Conference. Um, my podcast is part of their audio collective, and they asked me when Ted had gone completely online because of Covid to. Do some interstitials between the talks, some, some visual essays that sort of came to life with narration. And I did, I did three of them. I did one, uh, a love letter to traveling, a love letter to storytelling, and a love letter to gardening.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:17

Hmm.

Debbie Millman: 1:07:17

So about a year and a half ago I got an. Email out of the blue from an editor at Timber Press and Timber is owned by Ette, asking if I would be interested in creating a visual book about gardening. And I wrote back and was like, I'm not sure if you are writing to the right person here. Um, I'm not a gardener. I am. I am a wannabe gardener. I am a, I am on a quest to become a gardener, but if you are asking me to write a book about gardening, then every gardener on the planet will protest because there.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:02

has already turned them down?

Debbie Millman: 1:08:04

There's nothing I can teach anybody about the actual discipline of gardening. And I said, if you're looking for a quest to become a gardener, if you're looking for somebody to document all their failures and what they did wrong and how they've come to a modicum of success, then I'm your girl. And they wrote back and said, yes, that sounds like a fun book. So that's what I did.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:25

I love that. Okay. But I also really want the love letter to storytelling.

Debbie Millman: 1:08:31

Oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:32

on that next? How do, can I find that somewhere? Where is it? Who do I have to, who do I have to call?

Debbie Millman: 1:08:38

If you do search on my name, it'll, they're still there.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:42

okay. I'll link all of this in the show notes too so everybody can go watch them. Um,'cause that sounds beautiful. there was something that you said in the book that really struck me. You said as you've gotten older, you've gotten less comfortable doing things that you're not good at. And I find that so interesting.'cause I, I feel like I constantly hear the opposite. As people get older, they sort of don't give a shit about. How, how people, what people think of them. have you combated that at all?

Debbie Millman: 1:09:11

Good question. I am doing more things that I'm fundamentally uncomfortable doing because I'm not good at them. Those two things are learning another language, which French. Roxanne and her family all speak fluent French. Her family's from HA from Haiti. Um, so they speak Creole French, but they also know more traditional French. And after a hip operation that I had two years ago. I was very severely warned that if I didn't do physical therapy, that it would not be a good thing for my hip or my body. And because I'm a huge walker, I walk everywhere and I love walking. I really took the PT very seriously. But up until that point in my life, um, the last time you could find me in a gym was in sixth grade.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:11

Got it.

Debbie Millman: 1:10:12

And so that was super hard for me. So now I'm super proud of the fact that I can do things. And so those are two of the biggest things I've spent a lot of my life. I. Wanting to do things and being too afraid to do things for lots and lots of reasons, not just because of failure, but probably what goes below that is the humiliation of being seen as failing at something. Um, but there's so many, like woulda, coulda, shouldas that now that I'm in my sixties, I, I've become very impatient with myself in this regard. And I'm more like. If not now, when, like, how much longer are you gonna be saying you wish you could speak another language or you wish you could do and blah, blah, blah. So I'm taking those, those, those sort of hopes and dreams a little bit more seriously.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:11

I love that. Thank you for sharing, sharing all of that. I think, uh, there are important things to remember.

Debbie Millman: 1:11:16

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:16

One quick question before I let you go.

Debbie Millman: 1:11:19

Oh, we can talk forever.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:21

I Great. I have time, so if you have some time, well, something to ask before we go.

Debbie Millman: 1:11:26

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:26

I, I want to amplify people in our lives that we care about. you're not allowed to say, Roxanne,

Debbie Millman: 1:11:34

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:34

if you were to die suddenly, who is clearing your internet search history?

Debbie Millman: 1:11:41

Oh my God.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:44

Who do we trust with our life and our secrets?

Debbie Millman: 1:11:48

Um, oh my God. Oh my God. I would probably ask four people to do this or in different, in different ways.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:02

love.

Debbie Millman: 1:12:03

Maybe five. Um, I would, I would ask.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:07

stages so that

Debbie Millman: 1:12:08

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:08

knows all the secrets.

Debbie Millman: 1:12:09

Right. Yeah. I would ask kid, my dear friend who, Has some, oh, well, I'm not gonna go there. I would ask Chip kid, the book designer, to clear my reading history.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:23

Oh.

Debbie Millman: 1:12:25

I would ask my cousin, Eileen, who I talk about in the book to clear out my gardening history. I would ask Emily Oberman, one of my dear asbestos friends, to clear out all of my, um, TMZ, uh, culture slash culture ish history

Jason Blitman: 1:12:54

uh.

Debbie Millman: 1:12:55

and, um. I would ask my friend Deedee Gordon, who's, who's also somebody that I've done a lot of business with, to clear out all of my banking info

Jason Blitman: 1:13:07

Oh

Debbie Millman: 1:13:08

Roxanne got all the money

Jason Blitman: 1:13:09

yes, of course, of course.

Debbie Millman: 1:13:11

and, and all the business stuff. All the boring business stuff. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:15

So

Debbie Millman: 1:13:15

Oh, and then I would ask Mario Poppo another really good friend of mine to, to clear out all the other ancillary stuff about science and.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:24

The miscellaneous Uhhuh Uhhuh. So funny how awesome that you have such a long list.

Debbie Millman: 1:13:31

Oh yeah, I do. Well one, one is my cousin, one is my ex. You know, all lesbians are

Jason Blitman: 1:13:38

matter. It

Debbie Millman: 1:13:39

so

Jason Blitman: 1:13:40

I think that's so fantastic. I wouldn't

Debbie Millman: 1:13:42

thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:42

any of my cousins, so.

Debbie Millman: 1:13:44

well, Eileen is featured in the book because she's really the person who's taught me most about gardening than anyone.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:50

Tell me why I need to watch all 10 seasons of Colombo.

Debbie Millman: 1:13:55

The guest stars, Faye Dunaway.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:59

Oh my God.

Debbie Millman: 1:14:00

Cash.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:02

It like really wasn't on my radar until I read that in your book. I

Debbie Millman: 1:14:05

A young, very young, like probably 19. Kim Catrell, Jason Robbar, I mean everybody. Who was anybody? At that time in the seventies was on that show.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:22

That's

Debbie Millman: 1:14:22

It was incredible. Just incredible.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:25

watching.'cause you watched all 10

Debbie Millman: 1:14:27

All 10 seasons. And I would watch them again and so would Roxanne. We loved it. And the pace that the, you know, it's a two hour show and the first half hour to 45 minutes, you don't even see Colombo. It's all about the, the perpetrator doing the bad deeds. So we know who it is, but then Colombo comes in and the, and the perpetrator, the, the criminal was always a famous person like Johnny Cash, Fage Onaway. I mean, it was incredible the number of famous people that were on Colombo,

Jason Blitman: 1:15:01

Interesting. And I'm fascinated by that style of the storytelling because murder she wrote, Sherlock, you're, you're on the journey with the

Debbie Millman: 1:15:10

right?

Jason Blitman: 1:15:11

don't know who did it.

Debbie Millman: 1:15:12

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:12

is a very interesting turn.

Debbie Millman: 1:15:14

very slow tv. You, you know, it's often in that first half hour, you don't, there's not even any dialogue. You see the sort of machinations of this bad behavior and the music. And do you know that Steven Spielberg directed the very first episode of Colombo?

Jason Blitman: 1:15:30

No, I didn't know that, but now I do.

Debbie Millman: 1:15:32

Yeah. Right now, no words.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:34

I just got so much information into my brain that is so funny. we could talk endlessly about all of the things. You are a delight. I can't wait for people to check out the book to maybe be inspired to start their own garden. I need to be Googling what a lemon cucumber is because. saw that and I was like, I need to know more. Does it taste like a lemon? Is

Debbie Millman: 1:16:00

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:01

yellow?

Debbie Millman: 1:16:02

It's yellow, it's round. It sort of has a roundish shape to it. Not quite oval like lemon. Um, but it's round. Um, I have to say, if you're going to grow cucumbers, I would go with, um, Persian or English cucumbers.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:20

I just had never heard of a lemon cucumber

Debbie Millman: 1:16:21

Yeah. I mean, I, I got the little seedlings and then grew them and they took, so that was like, I also tried other cucumbers, but failed.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:31

Mm-hmm.

Debbie Millman: 1:16:32

I like that the, um, actual sort of outside of the cucumber, but the seeds are very big and I don't like cucumber seeds. I love cucumbers, but I always cut the seeds off

Jason Blitman: 1:16:46

Interesting. I find them sort of benign, but I can respect it.

Debbie Millman: 1:16:51

in, in traditional cucumbers and in lemon cucumbers, they're very big. Part of the reason I like curvy cucumbers or Persian or English is that the, the, the seeds are much, much smaller.

Jason Blitman: 1:17:01

I'm probably eating Persian and English. Yeah.

Debbie Millman: 1:17:04

Yeah, they're long and thin.

Jason Blitman: 1:17:06

Right, right, right. Exactly. Oh my God, love.

Debbie Millman: 1:17:09

Like I wish my legs were,

Jason Blitman: 1:17:11

no, we're perfect. We're all perfect. Well this has been a delight. You're fantastic. Thank you so much for being my esque reader today.

Debbie Millman: 1:17:20

My pleasure. It has been an honor, an absolute blast.

Jason Blitman: 1:17:24

You are so sweet.

1:17:25

Annie, Debbie, thank you both so much for being here. Everyone, you're the best. Thank you so much for listening, and I will see you next week. Bye.