Gays Reading | A Book Podcast for Everyone

Fredrik Backman (My Friends) feat. Erika J. Simpson, Guest Gay Reader

• Jason Blitman, Fredrik Backman, Erika J. Simpson • Season 4 • Episode 29

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Host Jason Blitman sits down with bestselling author Fredrik Backman (My Friends) to discuss his love of films, why he could win a Taylor Swift lyric competition, and the exact moment he recalls where his humor originated. Fredrik shares why he doesn't call himself an "author," how he's struggled with confidence, and much more. Jason is then joined by Guest Gay Reader Erika J. Simpson (This is Your Mother), who discusses her recent reading, while Jason explains why experiencing her memoir was particularly unique.

Fredrik Backman is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of A Man Called Ove, My Grandmother Asked Me to Tell You She’s Sorry, Britt-Marie Was Here, Beartown, Us Against You, Anxious People, The Winners, My Friends, as well as two novellas and one work of nonfiction. His books are published in more than forty countries. He lives in Stockholm, Sweden, with his wife and two children. Connect with him on Facebook and X @BackmanLand and on Instagram @Backmansk.

Erika J. Simpson is a Southern girl living in Denver, Colorado, with her partner and their black cat. She holds an MFA in creative writing from the University of Kentucky and is the recipient of the 2021 MFA Award in Nonfiction. Her essay “If You Ever Find Yourself” was published in Roxane Gay’s The Audacity and featured in Best American Essays 2022, edited by Alexander Chee. This Is Your Mother is her debut memoir, and she also writes fiction for the page and screen.

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Gays reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gays Reading the book podcast for everyone. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and I am so happy to have you here today along with our guests, the prolific bestselling author, Fredrik Backman, and my guest gay reader for the day I. Debut Memoirist Erika j Simpson, who Roxanne Gay calls a writer who is absolutely going places. Both Fredriks and Erika's bios are in the show notes. If you are new to Gays reading, welcome and if you've listened before I. Thank you so much for coming back. GA's Reading is an indie podcast and a labor of love of mine. So if you are enjoying the show, please like and subscribe Wherever you get your podcasts. Share us with your friends and if you are so inclined, leave a five star review so that the algorithm can help other folks find the show as well. It means so much, And thank you to those of you who have already done so. You can also find gays reading all over the place. We are on Instagram at Gays Reading. We're on Blue Sky, YouTube. You could watch these episodes and newly on Substack, so make sure to check that out. I have some exclusive content over there and a bunch of free stuff, uh, for free subscribers as well. Tonight I'll be in conversation with actor Lily Taylor talking about her book Turning to Birds, and the recording of that conversation will be featured over in the Substack, some books that are publishing today that I wanna shout out. Disco Witches of Fire Island by Blair Fell, which, speaking of Substack, I have a fantastic Q and A with Blair over there. Shop Girls by Jessica Anya Blau, who of course wrote Mary Jane, which was one of my favorite books a couple of years ago. Another new book, all The Mothers by Dominica Ruta. I have started this book. I'm about 15 to 20 pages in and I'm really loving it so far. It's so funny and I am surprised this is not popping up in more places'cause I, uh, I think it's gonna be really great and I'm looking forward to reading it. Home of the AmErikan Circus by Allison Larkin. I loved her 2021 novel. The people we keep. I can't wait to pick this one up. The river is Waiting by Wally Lamb, which was my very first Wally Lamb, and it was devastating and I hear that. Par for the course for Wally Lamb, but it was, it was really terrific. And also the original daughter by Jemimah Wei. Uh, Jemimah is next week's Gays reading guest, and she is in Aardvark book Club selection this month. And of course, I'm continuing my partnership with Aardvark Book Club to provide an exclusive introductory discount. New members in the United States can join today and enter the code. Gays reading at checkout to get their first book for only$4 and free shipping. You can get your copy of the original daughter by Jemimah Wei, uh, for only$4 by going to a artwork book club.com and using the code Gays reading. It's such a good deal. They're great on social media. I'm a big supporter of a artwork book club and appreciate all of their support as well. All of that said, thank you so much for being here and enjoy my conversations with Fredrik Beckman and Erika Jay Simpson,

Fredrik Backman:

I have one who likes to stay at home and the son likes computers and the daughter, she goes to Brazilian jitsu and she drives go-karts.

Jason Blitman:

Oh my. She's so cool.

Fredrik Backman:

have one of each.

Jason Blitman:

I'm sure he is very cool too, but in, in a different way. In a way that I understand a little bit more.

Fredrik Backman:

he is I have one very introverted and one, one very extroverted.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. You relate to him, I'm sure.

Fredrik Backman:

knew that it could happen because my wife and I are very different people, so it makes

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Fredrik Backman:

So we're not entirely surprised. We're

Jason Blitman:

No, I've heard you talk on other interviews about some of those differences between you and your wife and how that shakes out in life and in your writing. And so this doesn't surprise me either as a consumer of your content.

Fredrik Backman:

think the basic difference is that she actually likes things and I don't, so

Jason Blitman:

That sounds about right. That sounds about right. It's so funny. I will say welcome to first, welcome to Kay's Reading. Uh, we can be curmudgeons together.

Fredrik Backman:

I, I try to explain to people that I make a living from sitting alone in a room talking to

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

haven't made up. If I enjoyed real people, I would be out in the real world and, would sell cars or be in office or,

Jason Blitman:

sell cars is their first go-to,

Fredrik Backman:

do one of the things where you,

Jason Blitman:

right? No, of course. I, of course. I'm grateful that you stay at home and talk to the people that are imaginary because that means we get more of your books and I love them. So thanks for that. You are here to talk about your newest, my friends, your new beautiful book. Have you worked out an elevator pitch for it yet?

Fredrik Backman:

no, I don't have elevator pitches. I have, my wife, whenever

Jason Blitman:

No, just

Fredrik Backman:

me, I know, because you sit once in a while. I'm not in meetings a lot because my

Jason Blitman:

Uhhuh,

Fredrik Backman:

runs the business

Jason Blitman:

right?

Fredrik Backman:

and she's done that for eight years because everybody just, in 2017 I had a burnout and then everybody just kinda realize that this is not gonna work out. So she took over everything. She runs the business, I handle everything that's in imagination and she handles everything that's in, in reality.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

So very rarely do I sit in on meetings, but when I do and someone asks me for an elevator pitch, my, my wife, she rolls her eyes so hard, she gets a concussion. And then she says, is the elevator stuck?

Jason Blitman:

Right. How many floors is it?

Fredrik Backman:

he can do it. He can do it Is stuck. do you have 45 minutes?

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Fredrik Backman:

roughly what it's about.

Jason Blitman:

No, you should just say read it or don't.

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah. It's I know it's very now

Jason Blitman:

publicist is gonna love that. I just said that.

Fredrik Backman:

I feel like you can only do an elevator pitch on something that you haven't created yourself, if that makes sense.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, because you're able to see it from the outside.

Fredrik Backman:

I think you and you also have to make an elevator pitch, you have to, there's some, you have to, I feel like people use elevated pitches and they go, o it's like this, a reference of choice and then meets this reference of choice with. A sprinkle of this, but then, that's all depending on what that reference is to you.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah so using that model, I would say it is art meets friendship or friendship meets art. And what would you say is a sprinkle of

Fredrik Backman:

I don't know. Violence perhaps. Because it's I think

Jason Blitman:

yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I had this discussion with someone the other day. It doesn't have, someone said it doesn't actually have a lot of violence in it, but it feels like violence.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

For whatever elevator pitch I can make. It's two stories. It's one takes place 25 years ago and one takes place now. And the then story is these this group of friends and they all know that they're not gonna make anything out of themselves. They all know that they're not gonna leave this town that they're in, and they're not gonna they all know that they're not gonna amount to anything. And they live this they come from these, these functional homes. And

Jason Blitman:

I wanna tell you, I heard you. We are, the elevator is not stuck. You don't have to come up with an elevator pitch. That is, let's just talk about your book. I have so many questions. Let's just talk about it.

Fredrik Backman:

but it's the thing that I wanted, it's about these kids. It's about most of the people in the story are teenagers and,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

you feel at the mercy of the world. You're not in control of your environment. you're left to the, the good gracious of other people.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

You are left at the mercy of a lot of adults. And if those adults are not well intended then you are then you are screwed.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

it's that threat. I think it's the threat of violence more than actual violence. They're not that much violence in it, but the constant you live under the constant threat of violence. And

Jason Blitman:

We all do.

Fredrik Backman:

the running

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

threat in the book.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. You just talked about adults and something that you say early on in the book is that adults are the worst kind of humans, which I hard agree. We are the worst though. I like to still think I'm relatively young.

Fredrik Backman:

I do think that adults are the word. It's the opening line of the book, so it's not a spoiler or anything. It's,

Jason Blitman:

No, it's not.

Fredrik Backman:

I think I think adults are the worst kind of humans. It's I put a lot of hope to the,

Jason Blitman:

Why do you think that is? Why do we suck? Why are we the worst?

Fredrik Backman:

We're supposed to be, and then the kids are supposed to be better. My daughter is in charge of music in the car to, to school in morning, in the mornings. And Because my son doesn't care. And so she's in charge of music and once in a while she'll play something. All of a sudden guns and roses became big again because it's, because of TikTok, because someone

Jason Blitman:

Oh,

Fredrik Backman:

and the TikTok and then,

Jason Blitman:

welcome back. Guns N Roses.

Fredrik Backman:

for a minute, guns and roses were huge. With 11 year olds, which was, which is nice. But it was also, I told her like I, it's fun whenever you find something that I listen to when I was a kid but whenever she listens to something that I don't understand, that I don't get, I try to remember that's how it's supposed to be. Like it's, she's supposed to listen to things that I don't get, and she's supposed to do things that I don't understand, and she's supposed to think that I'm stupid. It's, that's how it's supposed to be,

Jason Blitman:

That's the circle of life.

Fredrik Backman:

move forward

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

The only reason that we have hope in the youth is because may, maybe you won't fall in the same traps as us, and maybe

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

Maybe you'll actually stick to your ideals for a little while and maybe you'll be different.

Jason Blitman:

I'm gonna guess that I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask just in case anyway. Are you open-minded? Do you like learning from her or are you just girl, live your life. I'm gonna, it's okay that I don't get it. I don't want to get it

Fredrik Backman:

of the time I would say that I don't have the energy

Jason Blitman:

right.

Fredrik Backman:

be I very rarely have the energy to be curious. It's, But but I learned, you learn stuff anyway. If you hang around your kids for long enough, it's, you're gonna, you can't help but learn things.

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Fredrik Backman:

It kinda sticks and I think last year, you know, the Spotify wrapped.

Jason Blitman:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I think I was, I think my Spotify was the, I was, I think it was the top, top 5% of Taylor Swift listeners that year, which I've never, like for myself, decided that I'm gonna listen to Taylor Swift now,

Jason Blitman:

Uhhuh.

Fredrik Backman:

but we had a lot, we, we drove back and forth to Spain last summer, so there was a lot of Taylor Swift going on, and then I just, my, my wife just said, you know when you drop the kids off at school? I'm like, yeah, do you change the music when they get out? And I I probably don't.

Jason Blitman:

Right,

Fredrik Backman:

Have like a a half an hour, 40 minutes to your office then?

Jason Blitman:

right.

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah. She says that might be it.

Jason Blitman:

So it just seeps into you.

Fredrik Backman:

that it seeps into your life, I would give myself good chances in, in, in a competition to recite

Jason Blitman:

Lyrics.

Fredrik Backman:

lyrics. I think. I know a little too much. But it's it's nice. I have, my kids now, I have what I enjoy the most is that they, they introduce me to, we've always watched a lot of movies and a lot of TV shows together as a family, because How my wife and I, that's how we built our relationship because that was the only thing that we had in common to begin with. Like the only thing that we both genuinely loved and where we loved the same things. We didn't like the same music. We didn't like the same books. We didn't like the same art. We didn't like the same anything, but we like. like we could go to the cinema. So it's always, since the kids were small we just, we go to the cinema all all the time. So they just learned somehow that this is a family thing. Like they,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

haven't told them now that the teenagers that, you don't, not like in law or anything. You don't have to do it with us. You could go to the cinema by yourself, but they haven't quite figured that out yet, which we're grateful for.

Jason Blitman:

That's very nice.

Fredrik Backman:

so they, I think what I enjoy most is that, that, they introduced me to, to movies and TV shows that I would've never found otherwise.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and we can watch sitcoms together, which is awesome because you hear your kids laugh Have that moment where, oh, now, we're laughing at the same thing. And that's such a bonding moment because I

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

the first time that happened to me and my dad. My dad is not a. My dad doesn't laugh a lot. He doesn't laugh out loud a lot, Remember him laughing out loud, laughing out loud at something at the TV at the same time.

Jason Blitman:

Do you remember what it was?

Fredrik Backman:

I remember exactly what it was and I'll remember for the rest of my life, and that's

Jason Blitman:

Can you share it or you don't wanna share it?

Fredrik Backman:

It's a Swedish Two Swedish comedians

Jason Blitman:

oh, fun.

Fredrik Backman:

like the seventies, eighties so really old school

Jason Blitman:

Yeah

Fredrik Backman:

but I remember it so well that yeah, it's a kind of an Abbott Costello

Jason Blitman:

sure.

Fredrik Backman:

duo. And and I remember it so clearly that kinda. It was such a pivotal moment for the way I view humor and comedy. The way I write jokes, I think is, you can trace it all the way back to there.

Jason Blitman:

Huh?

Fredrik Backman:

and because that's when I figured out that if, you have to construct a joke for someone, you like to make them laugh, that's why it works. Construct it for an audience. You have to construct it for someone, to make them laugh, and then other laughs will follow. But that's not the important laugh. The important laugh is the one that you,

Jason Blitman:

The intentional one?

Fredrik Backman:

you are human. And,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I think so I, I, they when, now that they introduce me to something we'll watch a TV show. We'll laugh at the same thing. Or they'll send me a reel or a meme or whatever. It's, whatever the words are, they'll send me something that they know will make me laugh.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

then I laugh when they come in from the other room. I knew you would laugh at that.

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Fredrik Backman:

stupid dad joke. And then they'll criticize me for laughing. But they knew exactly what I would like. They pinpointed my sense of humor in a way that, and these are the things that I learned from. And also the they read a lot. Especially my daughter reads a ton. And she'll introduce me to a lot of books that I wouldn't have been introduced to otherwise. And the, understanding that, oh, you're reading this. Oh, this is why you like it. Okay, what is the, what is the appeal of this country? Oh, you didn't like this, but this should have been, no, you didn't like that, but you And you have this opportunity to, that's how I get to know everyone. I think I, I have too many social issues to figure people out, but I can figure it out oh, you like these thing? I wanna know what you like, I

Jason Blitman:

So you're contradicting yourself because you are much more open to learning from your children than you initially. Let me believe,

Fredrik Backman:

it, If you hang out with your kids enough, you can't.

Jason Blitman:

right? It happens.

Fredrik Backman:

But they are I mean they like a lot of crap too. Not everything that they they like a lot of bad things, it's I'd say it's a nice thing, but especially I think the books the last couple years has been awesome. Going to a bookstore with my daughter was. The

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

moment where I to someone in the book industry a while back at a book publishing house, they were all complaining, the book industry, the book, everything is a crisis and the kids don't read anymore. And because that's the, like the mantra of the book industry

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

reads and everything is going, I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. But the kids are fine. About the kids. Maybe people my age don't read as much, but that's a us problem.

Jason Blitman:

Mm-hmm.

Fredrik Backman:

Blame that on the teenagers. The teenagers read a ton if you go into any bookstore, it's just, it's their world now. They've absolutely taken over and and I think that's awesome. Started going into bookstores with my daughter maybe three, four years ago she started finding books of her own I wanna I need that. That. And we had to go, to a and she wants to go to a physical store. She wants to browse,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

move around, she wants to see the books, she wants to hold'em, she wants. That really changed the entire way. I think that I view the industry and the, I accept none of the gloom now of,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Fredrik Backman:

industry is dying. The industry is absolutely not dying. The

Jason Blitman:

no. And something amazing about your books is that they are relatively universal and teenagers can pick those up as well in addition to adults and everyone can get something out of it. Back to your humor for a second. I laugh a ton in reading your books, so I feel like we have a very similar sense of humor, or at least how it's translated into English. But there's something in particular in my friends that is very universal, and I don't think this is a spoiler, but a very huge part of the book at the nucleus of the book is a fart.

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah,

Jason Blitman:

Why is that so funny to everybody?

Fredrik Backman:

it is not funny to everybody. Let me tell you, because there was a lot of criticism among, publishers and early readers and everything that there were too many fuck jokes. I've taken some far jokes out to be fair. So there aren't as many far jokes as there was to begin with,

Jason Blitman:

Frederick I counted them. Do

Fredrik Backman:

How many other.

Jason Blitman:

you wanna guess

Fredrik Backman:

I have absolutely no idea

Jason Blitman:

28?

Fredrik Backman:

28, but I think that's a reasonable amount. It's over 400 pages. I think 28 fart jokes

Jason Blitman:

The percentage is pretty solid.

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a reasonable amount.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

it was just this thing that, I don't know. I think my, I think part of it is that my children are now ju when I wrote this book, my children are just now too old for fart jokes, if that makes sense.

Jason Blitman:

No, it doesn't make sense because we're all children inside of us.

Fredrik Backman:

them, it makes them twice as funny to me. I, it said the, because the book is about. Teenagers. But the most of the teenagers are, they're living 25 years ago,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I don't try to write. I told, don't try to pretend that I know what it's like to be a teenager today. I write them the way it was 25 years ago. And, with the belief that I don't think it has changed that much. I think the world around us has changed a lot, but I don't think the basic emotions that you go through as a teenager trying to find your way in life I don't think the friendship that you have as a teenager, I don't think any of that changed. I think that's the same now as it was 25 years ago. But I

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

The, since these teenagers are, they're grown up in this with this threat of violence, this darkness, this, this they have, they carry this immense sadness. They have lost parents. They, they've been through really rough things and they carry this sadness and this fear and this, this overwhelming darkness within them. The t jokes are there to remind the reader and to remind me that these are kids.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

There's the kids. And at that turning point when you are 1415, where you're kinda, you are not, you're not an adult yet, but you're also not quite a kid. And that's such a the fart jokes is just there to remind me and the reader that these are still kids They're fighting for the right to be kids. they're really struggling. Like we, we don't wanna stop being kids. We want the right to kids. We Summer and just be stupid and childish and, irresponsible and misbehave and do stupid stuff because that's what you are supposed to do when you're a teenager. That's your job. It's your It's your job to be stupid.

Jason Blitman:

and I would argue though too, that it's not only a reminder to us that they're kids, but it's a reminder to us that it, the word fart is in the book 28 times to say, adults that are reading this, you're allowed to find this funny. You can be it could be levity for you too. And I think that was a nice reminder to me of oh, I'm allowed to laugh with them. The book is it's about art, it's about chosen family, about finding your people. It is dedicated to anyone who's young and wants to create something, do it. Was that advice that was given to you?

Fredrik Backman:

No,

Jason Blitman:

Mm.

Fredrik Backman:

I maybe, I kinda wish that someone had given me that advice, at some point. I think it's, on, on top of all the fart jokes, which are there, because, I enjoy them and, I, I think, this story in particular needs, a lot of jokes to kinda beat the vehicle so that, the darkness of it doesn't become overwhelming. but I think at its core, if you know what I really wanted to book to be, I struggled for a really long time. That's insanely long story. But I struggled. I've never struggled so much with my confidence as I did, the last two years. I've never had so many moments where I felt like I, I don't think I'm gonna do this anymore. because I felt like I don't have it. Whatever I had gone and I never quite knew what I, what it was I had, which makes it, when you feel like you can't find your way. It's, I don't have, I don't have a formula to go back to. I don't

Jason Blitman:

If you don't know what's lost, you can't find it.

Fredrik Backman:

no. Because I don't know

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

the first place.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I've written books that are to me quite different. and so I had, so I just had, it was a two year long breakdown. I also had health problems and I had, as I, for a long while, I had long discussions with my wife that maybe I shouldn't do this anymore because it just, it's not, I don't think this is good for me. I don't think it's good for my brain. I think

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

messing me up more than anything. and I wrote the first draft of this book, and to put it bluntly, a few people read it. Publishers, a few trusted readers and you have this focus group. And no one liked it. and it's not like people tell you that we don't like it. It's, you get it back and you know the difference between excitement and not, and you get it back and you can see it in eyes that this is not it's not there. nothing is happening here. and my wife told me that, in the way that she does that, it's pretty dark freak. when you tell a story, normally it's, there's a lot of darkness, but you have this light coming through it, and that's what makes it special. And there's no light here. because there's not a light in, not a lot of light in you right now. Maybe as a writer, I was doing fine as a human being. I, I. it was just the writing part. As a writer, I felt like I'm just in a hole. And,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and then, out of that came, two pieces of advice. There was, writers that I know that I trust a lot were exceptional writers. And one of them said, you know, I get angry with you every time you leave the pier with the kids. Like that you, they're on that pier and I think it's awesome. And then every time you leave that pier, I just get angry with you because it's, because that part is so great in the other part is just in comparison, nothing. So I took everything out except for the parts that I had with the kids of the peer. And I rewrote the whole thing. And the whole now story came from that. and, because the whole now story then focused on, okay, I have to write about someone my age.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

a lot of me in it. and then maybe we'll find something. And then the other piece of advice was that another writer said, you know what, it made me really want to be a better dad. And that feedback on it. He just said, it really made me wanna be a better dad. And I just clung to that and felt like, all right, what can I do with this? And then I sat down and I felt, okay, I'm gonna write this as if it was my last book. I'm gonna write it as if, because I had been talking so much to my wife about retiring from writing and or retiring from book publishing. I would still write, I

Jason Blitman:

sorry. The machine. Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

retiring. So I, I sat down and I thought if this was going to be my last book, if this is the last thing that I ever published. What would I want it to be? And me, the, I always thought that my last book would be for someone who wants to write, I wanna write it for someone who wants to do the things that I do. And if this is the last thing I'll do, I'll try to, I'll try to write it for you if you are. So that's where the dedication came from. So I wrote

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

When I started to rewrite the book, I just started with a new document and the first thing I wrote is, what was that dedication

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and wants to create something, do it. then kinda, that was the whole, that was the whole anthem of the,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

the story after that. And then whenever I got lost, I went back to that. I'm

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Fredrik Backman:

person, nevermind, I. Nevermind the critics. Nevermind the people who are not gonna the book, because that's the problem. You're right. And you think about the people who are not gonna the book, but they're not

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

the book either way. So it doesn't care, doesn't matter. But you know that was the person I wrote it to, so that's where the dedication came from.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. I think not dissimilar from the fart joke. It was a, that's a nice reminder of these kids are teenagers and they're allowed to be having fun and the dedication for you to turn back whenever you lost your way. This is who the book is for. And frankly, it comes, that comes across, it comes through. My background is in theater. I'm not a writer per se. I've had author friends tell me that. You are the story you tell yourself. And so if you tell yourself you're not a writer, then you're not gonna be one. And that's a different, that's besides the point. I'm also gay and chosen family, and finding family is so important to me, and that is so much of what this book is about. Your protagonist is gay.

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

that come from?

Fredrik Backman:

You know, I wish I had a good answer to that, but I don't know.

Jason Blitman:

That's okay.

Fredrik Backman:

that in my mind he

Jason Blitman:

I, that's all that's it doesn't need to be profound.

Fredrik Backman:

No, no. It was just, there wasn't,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

in a while I get these questions, why is this person this? Why is this character this? Why is the, why did you choose for this character to be? And it's very rarely that I have a strong. Super smart answer. It's very often just be because they are, because I wanted it to be about different kinds of love, if that makes sense.

Jason Blitman:

Yes it does And I think that is how it read on the page. I think it was me turning what I wanted to make a statement into a question.'cause really what I just wanted to say to you is that it meant something to me that's who came out of you. And I didn't just want to say that, so I asked a question, but No,

Fredrik Backman:

no. But, but it's, it's, no, I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. I just wish I had a more,

Jason Blitman:

no,

Fredrik Backman:

and smart

Jason Blitman:

I,

Fredrik Backman:

answer. It's just to

Jason Blitman:

but Frederick, I have to tell you that the fact that you don't is meaningful Because for him to just be is more than we get sometimes.

Fredrik Backman:

it's, um, but it was also because the whole story is about love, but it's also about, unanswered love. And it's also about this is all that this relationship can be,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and he decides to be fine with it. and, there's this discussion about, being, you are friends with someone and you're so close that this is as close as you can get to being something more than friends. This is the absolute closest you can be to being more than friends.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and I, that was the thing that I was that, because either you get that or you don't. I think if you explain that to someone, you're, you, if you ever had a friendship that was like, this is such an intense friendship that it, this is absolute close that you can get to. This is as absolute close as you can get, to love someone and not being in love with them. This is

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

closest you can get. and I was looking for that because I think the older you get the more difficult it is to experience that.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I think you, you close too many parts of yourself off and Maybe it came from that because that was the, that's was the thing that I was searching for. And

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

it was obvious that, it was obvious to me the same way that it is obvious to Luisa with the teenager that he travels with She figures him out so quickly

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

he's kinda, he's both, a little touched but also deeply,

Jason Blitman:

It's exposed.

Fredrik Backman:

and a little angry. Like he is a

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

insult. Like he's, he thinks it's very nice, but it is also very deeply insulting,

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Fredrik Backman:

him because he, to him, it's not that obvious. I think most men that I know, gay or straight or whatever, we have this idea that we are enus, that we are riddles, that we are un, we are impossible to understand. And I had this, at some point, it's we're really not, like most of us are really, it doesn't matter. It's like you are not as complicated as you think you are. Um,

Jason Blitman:

Yourself.

Fredrik Backman:

and that was the, that was the, so that was the moment where she,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

start, starts talking about him. and he is, he's a little insulted because he never talk and she's just, she saw straight through him,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Fredrik Backman:

and she was fine with it. she doesn't put any value in it one way or the other. She doesn't care. It's just

Jason Blitman:

no, and he's just existing. Nothing really is about his sexuality really. I said earlier, the book is about empathy. It's about all sorts of things. And my background is in theater. I, during COID, when the world shut down and people weren't gathering and there was no theater I needed to have. A real existential moment of what was it about this art form that meant something to me? And so I boiled it down and boiled it down and it was about storytelling and about empathy, and about teaching empathy and about sharing other people's stories. And that's how I segued into books and segued into this podcast because hearing from other people is the best way to, to learn empathy. To gain empathy. And specifically in the book, there's a quote that art is empathy. Can you unpack that? What does that mean to you?

Fredrik Backman:

I mean in that, that, I'm just not to turn this answer in into a Ted Talk now. the,

Jason Blitman:

It's a short elevator ride, Frederick.

Fredrik Backman:

it's a recurring theme now that, I was trying to explain what art is to me

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

in the way

Jason Blitman:

I have a whole list of how, I imagine you define it'cause

Fredrik Backman:

and also the, I, a lot of that comes from the fact that, first of all, you talk about, being a writer and you are what you tell yourself that you are and I steer away from the word author. that's my defense to it. Like, I'm not an author. I'm not trying to be an author. I'm not, it's not my goal. It's not my intention. I'm a storyteller. So that's how I, that's how

Jason Blitman:

Can you say to someone who might not understand the difference, is there a brief way to describe what the difference is to you?

Fredrik Backman:

author is, that's this huge, because it's a defense mechanism. Because what you have is you have this, you had, it's this deep imposter syndrome that every sane person has. if you meet a person who doesn't have an imposter syndrome, it's like

Jason Blitman:

If they're, if they don't have imposter syndrome, then they're liars.

Fredrik Backman:

if they don't have imposter syndrome, it's, if they don't have imposter syndrome, they're dangerous. It's it's also, I don't, I have nothing in common with people. I don't know what to talk about with people who. Who think they're really good at what they do. It is I don't know where to start with you.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

like, you have to start with me, with your flaws and your fears and your, we have to start. Are you afraid of heights? Can we start there? spiders, perhaps I don't, let's start with your phobias. I don't know. But we can't start with what you feel that you are great at, because

Jason Blitman:

Hmm.

Fredrik Backman:

have anything I feel that I'm great at. and, so it starts with the imposter syndrome. It starts with the fact that I didn't think I was gonna, I liked writing. I like. It's, like stories. The only thing I ever liked when I was growing I just loved story. I just loved not be in reality. I just loved the fact that someone could take me someplace else.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I just, I still love stories. It's still the only thing that I really enjoy. I love it when other writers, once in a while other writers will show me something they've written and then, if you have any notes or feedback, and I'm like, do I? And then, they're like, yeah, let's go for lunch. And then, four hours later they're like, you really thought about this? I'm like, this

Jason Blitman:

Hmm.

Fredrik Backman:

thing I enjoy. This is the

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I like. I this is the talking about a story. It's the only thing I like, like dissecting something. Why is this good? Why is

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

It's like the only, it's the only thing I enjoy. but I had this. this overwhelming film that this is not something that I can do. This is not something, I'm not good enough. I'm not talented enough. I don't know, understand the craft enough. I'm not good enough at the language. I'm not, I, my grammar sucks. Whatever it whatever it is that, that the obstacles that you

Jason Blitman:

The story we're telling ourself

Fredrik Backman:

and,

Jason Blitman:

man.

Fredrik Backman:

and then, slowly, I just figured out that, all through my twenties, I battled this, trying to find out, can I write, should I write? Am I allowed to write? because you need, you meet a lot of people who tell you that you shouldn't write because you're not writing the way that you're supposed to, and you are we, you know, an author is this. And, then I just figure out, okay, what if I'm not an author? What if I, what if my goal is not to be an author? What if my goal is not to be, what, if my goal is not for critics to love me or for anyone to say that I'm smart, what if my goal is not to win awards or whatever? what if that is not, what if the goal is just, something else? And I figured out slowly that, I'm not a great writer. I'm not, I'll never be a great author, but I'm pretty good at telling stories. Like I how a story is constructed and I really enjoy that part of it. Like how you build things, the little blocks that you in there. And I, slowly but surely I figured out that May, maybe I can do this. and I had the same. And then I met my wife and I realized wow, I have the same. I have the exact same imposter syndrome when it comes to art. Like this because I didn't, like I was, I had a lot of literature in my life as a kid, but I didn't have a lot of art in my life as a kid. so I, I never felt like I would go to a museum with my wife. And my wife is really into art, and she studied art for a little while, and she's, she, she's, she's really into that, an annoying extent because she's also, I'll say, I really like this and I'll, put a reference. And she's yeah, it's the wrong reference, but I love you. but

Jason Blitman:

But also having an emotional response to something is important regardless,

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah. But she started showing me art and we started going to museums. Like cinema was the first, that was the

Jason Blitman:

right?

Fredrik Backman:

that we really did together. And then we started going to museums and we started going to art expeditions. and I didn't, and I didn't get it. and then slowly but surely I started feeling like, I think it's okay for me to be here, even if I don't get it. But I had that, I walked into a gallery and I felt, I don't belong here. They're gonna throw, they're gonna find out that I don't know what I'm, you know, and they're gonna throw me out. and, because I love sports and she loved art and, so I took her to a hockey game and she was like, anything. What the hell? What is they, why are they, why all these people, And, and then I slowly but surely I would look at something and I would slowly understand that, okay, what this artist did is the same thing that I'm trying to do. He's trying to find way to make sense of the world to him. this is a co this is his coping mechanism. that's, I went to therapy, extensive therapy and in 2017, 18, my therapist told me that if you had any other job, Frederick, I would seriously recommend you to be an antidepressants. But I don't think you can write the way you write if you are an antidepressants. And I think the fact that you write the way you do is your coping me mechanism. I think

Jason Blitman:

Interesting.

Fredrik Backman:

brain tries to make sense of your reality make you, moderately functioning. And, I figured out that, alright, this is someone else's art is someone else's, attack on this. This is someone else's effort to make sense of the world. when it's good and when it works, it's because you didn't do it for me. You did it for you.

Jason Blitman:

yeah,

Fredrik Backman:

try to make sense of you in this. And then you know that art is empathy came from, came from that. And then it also came from the fact that it's a really long answer to a short question, but it came from the

Jason Blitman:

it's a beautiful answer.

Fredrik Backman:

it came from the fact that all through the book. I'm trying to explain That thing. When you don't have words for whatever it is that you're trying to explain, and there's this person that you love and you want to explain something, you want them to know that you are trying really hard to

Jason Blitman:

Hmm.

Fredrik Backman:

what they're feeling and because empathy is insanely hard because empathy is also, you also very often are expected put it into words, which is impossible. And, but this thing where my wife and I could look at the same piece of art, when she said, I really love this, and I would turn around, I love it too. I love it too. I don't know why, but I was looking at it like there was 40 paintings in here and this is the one I like. She's this is the one I like too. that moment when you have that with something, someone, and this, that's why when we were, when I was a kid, you would, you would make mix tapes for each other. Like it's the same thing. I, it's this, or someone gave, I genuinely, I get really happy when people tell me that. I gave, I, I read your book and I gave it to someone, I read your book and I gave it to my mom then she read it and she like, because it's this whole thing. I thought of you, I read this and I thought of you. I really think you should read it too. I think this would be something for you

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

that the way that my dad will call me, he'll never call me. He'll, he's never once has, he called me and said WhatsApp or How are you? Or, I've been thinking about, that's not the way he communicates. he'll call and say, at the, I was at the hardware store the other day and I saw, I've been, I remember that your, your wall or whatever had, whatever in it.

Jason Blitman:

A hole in it.

Fredrik Backman:

I was at the hardware store and I, so I bought it, can I come by and put it up? I'm like, sure.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

just say, I thought about you, I just wanted to know how you were

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

can we hang out for a bit? But it's not the way that we communicate and it's never been. And that's fine. But so that was the thing, if you can't express your emotions and you don't know the words, then, you show someone a piece of art and you say that, I really love this. And that's your way of saying, I really love you and I wanna know

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Fredrik Backman:

of you, and I just want to be where you are.

Jason Blitman:

it circles back to you talking about your kids sending you reels and memes. That's the same thing.

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah. It's the same. but yeah, no, it circles back to that. it's art is

Jason Blitman:

when they think of you.

Fredrik Backman:

me memes and reels and just saying, you send someone an Instagram reel. It's really like, I thought of you,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Fredrik Backman:

saw this and I thought of you. the same way that, I saw this piece of art and I thought of you.

Jason Blitman:

And for better and for worse, all of this stuff is art. Just someone, the real is art and the book is art. And paintings are art and theater is art. And whatever. Someone took time to create and put their hearts into, you were talking about saying that you like something and you and your wife were able to talk about that. I think you can also both not like something or one of you like something and one of you not like something. And that, and to unpack why and what that means and what is, okay, I don't like it, but what is this artist? Trying to say, what are they trying to discover about the world and say about the world in a way that I'm not understanding or don't appreciate or whatever. And

Fredrik Backman:

someone said to me that it's not important in a relationship that you love the same things. It's enough that you hate the same things.

Jason Blitman:

yeah. Uhhuh.

Fredrik Backman:

hatred is very underrated,

Jason Blitman:

Absolutely. This book really is so special. And I have to tell you, what you just said about sharing your books with people. Anxious people is one of those books that I have my own copy of, but I always make sure to have at least two copies of it in my home so that I can gift it to someone. So if I, when I get it at, I'll get one at the bookstore, I'll get it at the thrift store, I'll pick it up on the sidewalk, or I always make sure to have a second copy of anxious people so that I can make sure to give it to somebody.

Fredrik Backman:

that's genuinely it. It is generally very nice and it's, it's nice that it's that book because that book was the most, I wrote that as just as a writing exercise because I was coming

Jason Blitman:

Hmm,

Fredrik Backman:

therapy and I didn't think I was gonna be able to write again, because I was too messed up and I was trying to just, I. get back to being a normal human being. Sorry my dog is making a lot of noise now.

Jason Blitman:

that's okay.

Fredrik Backman:

and, and I was coming outta therapy and I was battling all these, this panick anxiety going on inside me. and I wrote, actress started writing actress people as a writing exercise. I'm gonna write this to get back into writing, and then I'm gonna write some, an actual book. and then that turned into a book. But the way that, that people respond to it, when, when you say that you give that book to someone else, that, that's, think that's one of the most meaningful things that's happened to me in my career. that book really resonated with people in the way that I want someone else to read this so we can talk about it. It has been, it's been fun to talk about with people who they view as the main character, because I didn't write it. Like, there, there's this, these discussions with people who are like, it's not, you're not supposed to write a book And like, I know. But was, it wasn't to be a book. It just kind of grew and grew and grew and grew and grew. That's why the, the, the structure is I know, I know it's chaotic. the discussion with people, like, people keep asking me, who's the main character? And I'm like, there's, there is no main character.

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Fredrik Backman:

people can't take, there're just so, and people have very strong views on who is the main character, who is the, like the engine of the story.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

And uh, so, so it's been one of the, I think out of all the things I've written, it's the most interesting for me. It is the thing that people most often say something about that I'm like, huh, I didn't think about that. You know, I

Jason Blitman:

I mean, One would argue that anxiety is the main character of the story.

Fredrik Backman:

Uh, so it's this uh. It,

Jason Blitman:

anxiety is the main character of my story too.

Fredrik Backman:

me honestly I think anxiety is the main character to me way, way the town is the main character in Beartown.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah You are a beautiful storyteller. I will never call you an author again.

Fredrik Backman:

it. Less pressure.

Jason Blitman:

I, if this is your last book, I hope it's not, but if it is it's a very special one. It is worthy of being the last one. If it is, I validate you. I validate your feelings.

Fredrik Backman:

that's all I wanted it to be.

Jason Blitman:

yeah. And at the end of the day, I think you unpacking the difference between author and storyteller. I think author has this capital A and storyteller maybe has a lowercase s and it's okay if things are messier when you're a storyteller. And it's okay if you break the mold and break the form. I think it resonates with more people than you realize. And this was a beautiful piece of art and it meant a lot to me. And so thank you for writing it. I can't wait for everyone to read it.

Fredrik Backman:

I appreciate that a lot. And that's, and just to, to say something about the storytelling aspect of it, I really hope that it was something for someone who wants to create something. I wanted to be something where people read it and feel like, I think I can do something. like I, I think I could do something. I think I could do my take on this. I think I have

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

add to the, I think I could think I could do something similar to this or my own thing. But I think, if this moron is actually finishing things, then maybe I can too. I want it to be that. the author thing is that I don't want anything that I write to feel like I'm talking to you from a stage way over there and there's a crowd between us. I don't want it to feel like that. I want it to be just. I want you to feel that it's just you and me

Jason Blitman:

yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

you to feel like, we were at the airport and the flight was delayed and we sat at the bar, we had a beer and we were bored. and I said, you want to hear a story? And you were like, yeah, alright.

Jason Blitman:

Or maybe we were on a train ride.

Fredrik Backman:

or a train, we were on a train and we were bored, do you want to hear a story? Sure.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

I've said it a ton of times all through my career that's what I wanted to feel like. I want you to feel like it was just me saying, you want to hear a story? And you're

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

Alright. and then when that kind of. Landed with me that maybe I can use that. So I, this is, that's the frame I'm using for this story. It's just,

Jason Blitman:

yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

on a train and he starts telling her story and she says, and then what? And she's, he's

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and he kinda, I shouldn't have told you that I didn't want, but now it's too late now. She's what? You can't stop the story there. You have to, have to let me know what happened. And there's

Jason Blitman:

The train is moving. Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

from there, but it's also this, this thing that, that, he tells her something very sad and she starts crying and he says, it's 25 years ago. She's

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

me it's happening now whatever happens is the story is happening now. And,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

was the, that was the thing that I tried to achieve. So we'll see how it goes. It's

Jason Blitman:

Well, It's like you talking about laughing with your dad. I wanted to know immediately what it was you were laughing at. And for all I knew you didn't remember.'cause it was so long ago, but to me, this, you're telling me the story now, I wanna know, what movie you and your wife saw for the first time. Like I, I'm engaged in this story for another day.

Fredrik Backman:

that we were laughing at is he's, the joke that we were laughing at this, there's two Swedish comedians, and one of them is explaining to him that, there was a nuclear plant, there was an accident in a nuclear plant called Harrisburg. But, but the experts, they have told us that it was so unlikely that this would ever happen, that the most likely thing is that it's never happened at all. And he has this whole, it's like an entire joke that, that people, like the experts, though they're standing in front of the actual accident, they will tell you, this is so unlikely that in all likelihood it like hasn't happened at all,

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God,

Fredrik Backman:

in front of it. Yeah. But that's not likely, like the more likely scenario actually that this hasn't happened. but yeah, but that's, so the more likely scenario is that we're in parallel universes now.

Jason Blitman:

that's so funny.

Fredrik Backman:

that would be the more likely scenario. Yes. Because it's so unlikely that it's so unlikely that it's impossible. And if something is impossible. So he has this. on and on. And he was so clever. And he was so smart, and he was and he's dead serious. Like

Jason Blitman:

yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

when he gets to the part that the most likely ist that it hasn't happened all then my dad and I just burst out laughing it was this moment of wow. that, when that happens, when you laugh at the same time,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

it's, it's one of the, it's, I mean, I'm not involved in the adaptations of the book a lot. My wife handles all that because

Jason Blitman:

Mm-hmm.

Fredrik Backman:

human beings and But, but one of the great joys, one of the great blessings of the adaptations has been to, the, they made a man called Otto and to sit in a movie theater. And we went to Madrid the premiere and just sit in the middle of a movie theater, with an all Spanish crowd. And there's a joke and everybody just, everybody in the crowd just burst out laughing. And I'm like, and then we were in acro, we were in a theater in New York, and we were in a theater in Stockholm. laughs at the exact same spot, like the laugh at the exact same spot. That's such a, like right now, right at this moment, this is where we're, we are the same. We're together. We're a team.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

all these strangers, like we're all in this together. Now. It's,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and that's the. when you go to the movies, you get that because when you write a book, I imagine you have, if I write something that you, for one reason or another, feel connected to that. When you finish the book, when you close the book, I have you for maybe 30 seconds, like there are 30 sec before you return to reality. I have you for 30 seconds while you just, you know that something is, and that's the moment. That's the, that's a whole thing.

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Fredrik Backman:

but when you go to the movies, you have that experience with oth, with strangers, and I think if you see something that's truly great, like you go to the movies, you see a movie that's really awesome and or beautiful or moving or funny or something, and the end credits roll and the lights come on and you like, you stand up. And you accidentally turn to the person, to the stranger next to you, and you just look in their eyes and they're like, awesome, huh?

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

have that little, yeah, this was,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

say anything. It's just that Yeah, this was this.

Jason Blitman:

I love that you say accidentally turn.'cause that's like your worst case scenario,

Fredrik Backman:

Yeah. That is, you know, accident eye contact. That's the nightmare.

Jason Blitman:

right?

Fredrik Backman:

you turn to someone and you're like, you turn to some, like my wife says that if we make movies, she said, I want, I, the goal has to be that everyone sits through the entire end credits.

Jason Blitman:

Huh.

Fredrik Backman:

Because no one wants to stand up and like return to reality. Like

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

out. Everyone just wants to sit with it for a little while because when you see something great, that's what happens. I would just wanna sit with this for a little while.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

stay here for a little while. the lights come on and people have tears in their eyes and they're like, oh shit. You know, there, there are people in here.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

are other people in, and you turn to someone, you have tears in your eyes, like you've been bawling your eyes out and you turn, and you have accidental eye contact with someone else, and they have tears in their eyes too. that's a moment that you don't get, you don't get those moments a lot in, in, in life. and

Jason Blitman:

Certainly not as a writer in a room by yourself.

Fredrik Backman:

but it, if you get that. In any shape or form that's, I think that's to come back to your, art is empathy. it's, we get that in any shape or form. it's the version of this and is when I have book signings once in a while where people come up to me and, and you can hear two people like chattering away their two friends and they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you can hear them like, they're 30 people down the line and they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And when they finally come up and they laugh. And this has happened a ton of times. then one of them, it's, it's your turn and she'll turn and she'll goes, it was so nice. It was so nice to meet you. I hope that we can email and it's like you didn't know each other. no. we became friends in line,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

we started talking while we were in line. And by the time that they came up to the front of the line, they were friends because they stood in line to the same thing. They were holding the same book

Jason Blitman:

There's a commonality. There's something to talk about.

Fredrik Backman:

and the other said, yeah, me too. And

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

and that, that's the closest thing that you get to that human connection. And, and I think, I, if I was good at human connections in real life, I wouldn't write, I would seek out those human connections

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

some other way. but I would love to, if I had been good at it when I was a, when I was a kid, I would've loved to pursue theater. I, but the reason that I, just to. give you something. Where I came from, we had in my, don't know, is it high school when you're 16 or you're in high school?

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

We have 16 to 18. That's like you, you change schools when you're 16 and you, between 16 and 18, you go I don't your high school, I presume. there was this, we called it a cabaret. at the end of the year, everyone would go up and, you could do sketches or you could play a song or you could do whatever you wanted. we were, no one was really running, like no one was running it. And we were 16 and we started this school and we figured out I think we could take this. no one has this, but they're telling us like every six months at the, like the end of year. We get to perform in front of the school. Like we'll have the

Jason Blitman:

Hmm.

Fredrik Backman:

for an hour and they have to be here. we're gonna go to the auditorium now, and we're gonna,

Jason Blitman:

They can't close it and put it down.

Fredrik Backman:

lock the doors. And the monkeys are running the Sioux now. I, that's when I really started to figure out that maybe I could write, because I started writing jokes for others because I was on stage and it didn't work and I didn't, I, I couldn't figure it out and I could never be that, like I was never good at it. But then I wrote a joke and I said the joke and no one laughed. And then a friend of mine told the joke and everyone just died. And I'm like,

Jason Blitman:

Interesting.

Fredrik Backman:

there is something like I,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Fredrik Backman:

write this for someone else. And. He couldn't write jokes. was incredibly funny. So that's, that's how I real, that was the first time that I ever wrote something really that I was proud of. The first time I really wrote something that everyone got to see and everyone, and it was just me writing these sketches. And, so I think had things gone differently, had I had an avenue to it, I think I would've tried to write theater, but I didn't know, it, there was more, there were more moving parts to write

Jason Blitman:

There's

Fredrik Backman:

to write books. So

Jason Blitman:

there. Life is still ahead of you. There's still time. It's all about telling a good story, which you're familiar with.

Fredrik Backman:

I'm,

Jason Blitman:

Frederick Achman. I could talk to you all day. Go be with your family. The, no, don't be sorry. Are you kidding? I'm grateful for your time. Thank you so much for being on Gay's reading.

Fredrik Backman:

Thank you for having me. It was, uh, it was very, very nice

Jason Blitman:

I'm so glad.

Fredrik Backman:

really glad. I'm really, really glad you liked the book. I'm really glad you, you, that it connected to you somehow.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah, no, it really did.

Harper!:

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman:

You're matching your book.

Erika J. Simpson:

Exactly. I've been trying to buy more and more lavender things. This is the hard cover.

Jason Blitman:

gorgeous. I did have, I had this on earlier, it's like a purple-ish bluish sweater, but it got warm in here, but I was like, oh, I should have worn. Well Now, you know. now you know.

Erika J. Simpson:

take a picture. Lemme take a picture just for the future. is what happened. Thank you so much.

Jason Blitman:

Erica Jay Simpson welcome to Gay's Reading my guest by reader. We have,

Erika J. Simpson:

I about say is there, will there be bisexual jokes? Will I feel included in this space? I.

Jason Blitman:

we are very inclusive on gay's reading. We are,

Erika J. Simpson:

me? Am I visible? Thank God it's for everyone.

Jason Blitman:

yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

promises that this face

Jason Blitman:

Yes it is for everyone. Even if you didn't read the book, there are no spoilers. The theme song I love my theme song. It is so ridiculous. And I could say that'cause I didn't write it. So funny.

Erika J. Simpson:

We have to, I like that it's long. Like a nineties sitcom.

Jason Blitman:

was going for the Nanny and the Rosie O'Donnell show.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yes. Perfect. Perfect.

Jason Blitman:

Because the people that I aspire to be are Fran Drescher and Rosie O'Donnell. So

Erika J. Simpson:

wise

Jason Blitman:

That's the first thing that comes to mind is fashion wise.

Erika J. Simpson:

Just fashion wise,

Jason Blitman:

A hundred percent. No. This is thrift.

Erika J. Simpson:

why I write. Yes. I love to thrift.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. You write because you don't, because you don't have fashion sense.

Erika J. Simpson:

yeah, then I can't be seen and then maybe, I can afford to be seen after the book is out.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. you took, you do talk about thrifting in the book, but you also, I've seen on Instagram you have, you've thrifted three days in a row.

Erika J. Simpson:

Three days in a row, I can't help it.

Jason Blitman:

I'm,

Erika J. Simpson:

books and I like to haggle'em too.

Jason Blitman:

I know.

Erika J. Simpson:

is a children's book. Gucci Man's Auto Audiobiography. This is is a

Jason Blitman:

This is a 50. This is a 50 cent book. I'm gonna only give you 50 cents, sir.

Erika J. Simpson:

fine. They're like, it. But I love it.

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God. I know. Me too. In fact, I was literally thinking, you are my third of three interviews today. And so I was like, after this, I think I should go to the thrift store. Like I was already thinking that. I know. It's so cheap. It's so cheap. It's

Erika J. Simpson:

of finding something, it's just

Jason Blitman:

I know.

Erika J. Simpson:

childhood books, so I love collecting goosebumps from there. Like vintage nineties ones. I like finding romance novels from book Talk for$2 instead of 27. Just in case.'cause sometimes you never know a book talk,

Jason Blitman:

You never know. You never know what you're gonna be in the mood for. Erica, you're on my guest. Bye reader. Today, what are you reading?

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh,

Jason Blitman:

Are you reading your goosebumps? Are you reading? Tell me. I wanna know everything.

Erika J. Simpson:

Okay, so I've got, I got a few things'cause I dabble, I did from

Jason Blitman:

Uhhuh

Erika J. Simpson:

so I am reading Want by Jillian Anderson. I'm also listening to it on audiobook so I can hear her read

Jason Blitman:

her dult tones. Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

British. If you wonder, I don't know if you're up on your Jillian Anderson lore. Sometimes she's British, sometimes she's American. So do you know who that is, right? Yes. Scully

Jason Blitman:

You mean a lamb of the theater school at DePaul University?

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh. I forgot you were a theater kid too. Yes. I only went to DePaul for Jillian Anderson. Okay. You're, you feel me? So yeah, sometimes you get Scully, sometimes you get like the fall or what's that British show? She's on the queen.

Jason Blitman:

The Queen I, she was on sex education.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yes. And

Jason Blitman:

So good. Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

So I like hearing her voice read some of the things, but it's a collection of women sharing their fantasies and sexual desires. And it makes you feel, held it, it makes you feel held because you know how sex is. It feels like it's something. The desire for it. The whatever you're into, it feels like something that's only happening in your head to you. Know what I mean? It's ooh, I'm a naughty person. You know what I mean? So It's nice to hear other women talk about wanting to be desired or, I'm also reading Parable of the Talents,

Jason Blitman:

Tell me what is this?

Erika J. Simpson:

Butler. So. Butler's book, par Below the Sower yes. is the one that takes place in 2024. And it's essentially like right Literally it has a president who says, make America great again. And the world has in shambles from political stuff, climate change fires in California. Like it's so accurate, it's scary.

Jason Blitman:

The suits there, we didn't know we had.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yeah. It's oh so she popped her big one with this I love Octavia Bubble. That's mother. She's a cancer like me.

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God. Love.

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh. What's your sign, Aries? That's

Jason Blitman:

I'm an Aries. Yeah, I did look at you paying attention.

Erika J. Simpson:

I'm watching. My eyes are on the ground. Okay. And I gotta know who I'm talking to. I gotta know who's in But yeah, so I'm reading Parable of the Talent, but it's tough to get through because it's so accurate and then it makes your, it kinda makes you like a little scary, they essentially have to rebuild everything. It's like they're in survival mode, they're farming. You have to protect your community.

Jason Blitman:

What's your elevator pitch for this? Is your mother

Erika J. Simpson:

This is your mother, is a memoir that has two timelines that crossed the last six months of my mother's life, paired with my life from the age of nine to 25 when she passed, and the collision of identity. it comes to living inside your mother's story and then having to live without, how about that?

Jason Blitman:

Girl. I'll cut the first one, but I'll say for the children, this was take two off the cuff. Gorgeous and brilliant.

Erika J. Simpson:

A theater school we gotta use in degrees for something.

Jason Blitman:

Listen, okay. This, I had the most unique reading experience that I have ever had reading a book,

Erika J. Simpson:

unique. I like that word. Why?

Jason Blitman:

Because like our paths crossed, but we didn't know each other.

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh, interesting. So it's like seeing the other side of the timeline or something,

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

Where did we cross?

Jason Blitman:

I was working in the admissions office at the theater school when you were a first year student. I sat in that office and watched you and your classmates walking by.

Erika J. Simpson:

I can absolutely picture you in that office.

Jason Blitman:

I knew of you because of just like having an awareness of who the students were in the year below me. But we never had interactions. We never really had reasons to engage. I'm sure we were at the same parties, like it's crazy. I'm sure I was, I know so many of the people that you're referring to in the book, like it's

Erika J. Simpson:

I'm like, whose name did I say,

Jason Blitman:

no. What's actually funny is the names you don't say.

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh, Jesus. That's exactly what I was saying. I was like I didn't say

Jason Blitman:

No, but that's what I'm saying. You the names that you do say, I was like, oh yeah, okay. Okay. Like I know who Logan is. I know who Jeremy is. I know Brittany. I know.

Erika J. Simpson:

really know my dear Logan, that is my wife. Even though she stuck me with those three cats.

Jason Blitman:

funny. And like again, we don't know each other necessarily very well, but like

Erika J. Simpson:

But she like, oh, I know these

Jason Blitman:

I knew who they were. I know those characters.

Erika J. Simpson:

justice

Jason Blitman:

but that's, again, Erica, that's what's so weird. It's like I was living my life in the building at the same time. If in the movie version of the book I am, I'm like in the background,

Erika J. Simpson:

Right? You're like, literally, I can, I can be here.

Jason Blitman:

right? And that's what's so bizarre to me. But like our paths didn't cross and so there's this human walking amongst me and now I have her whole story.

Erika J. Simpson:

were you also acting? What did, what Were

Jason Blitman:

No. I was a theater art student.

Erika J. Simpson:

A theater art

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Erika J. Simpson:

like, I hope you didn't have to feel the pressure.

Jason Blitman:

No. So my God kid was Mitchell Velo.

Erika J. Simpson:

oh, Mitchell,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Erika J. Simpson:

that's Jeremy's other

Jason Blitman:

I know. But so that's, it's so weird to me and because Mitch, I know, but because Mitchell was my God kid and I like knew Jeremy. Tangentially through him. I would see Jeremy on the quad and I'd be like this kooky guy with his like long sweaters.

Erika J. Simpson:

tall. So tall, you can't miss him.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. And now like obviously for him to become who he is, like it's a no-brainer that's what happened. But no. So it was.

Erika J. Simpson:

yeah, after we got cut, we definitely used to like do fake interviews with each other in the dorm rooms because we were like, it's like a, it lights a fire under

Jason Blitman:

Yeah,

Erika J. Simpson:

not famous. I won't be famous. I'll show you. It's like when they get cut on RuPaul and they're backstage. You haven't seen the last of me. You're gonna see my name everywhere,

Jason Blitman:

know I,

Erika J. Simpson:

working out. He got a play on Broadway, I, and several other million things,

Jason Blitman:

yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

I got a memo mark coming out,

Jason Blitman:

Yes. No, it's incredible. It's incredible. It made me think more about the people in our lives that we don't know their full selves.

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh, that's good. Yeah, because that's my whole existence is. People not knowing what's going on with me or my past. Like when I came to college, when I came to theater school from Georgia, or really Decatur, Georgia, which is smaller to this like predominantly white school and this Catholic school, like you're wearing a mask. Like I don't want you to know that I'm country and that I don't have any money and that I'm. I'm so desperate to make it because if I don't make it, my whole family could fail. I'm not gonna tell people that. So they just see like a girl that looks a little shy in the corner and that's it. You know what I

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

Some people are so willing to be the main star. It literally felt like a reality show, theater school.'cause I know it's not that time in 2008, but it's like they're trying to get the gif off. You know what I mean? The meme of remember me,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

catchphrases? Remember? And it's

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

I was in survival mode. So I felt like I would drift in the background, just trying to observe everything and everyone see who, who has a story, who doesn't? Who would understand me? Who can I confide in?

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

And even Jeremy reading the book was like, I didn't know you were going through half of this stuff. And I'm like, girl, I couldn't say

Jason Blitman:

for your own protection. Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

is a competitive environment, so I can't give you guys my weaknesses or else I won't. I got cut anyway, so cut anyway.

Jason Blitman:

It's so interesting because it I have so many feelings about all sorts of things. One of them being, when you're 18 years old, how are you expected to know who you are and how can you be your authentic self when you don't even know what that means?

Erika J. Simpson:

So you're in a new environment to

Jason Blitman:

And you're trying to become,

Erika J. Simpson:

yeah, who's becoming quickest.

Jason Blitman:

right? Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

the rules. And the longer I was there, I felt like I was getting more jumbled.'cause they're like, you need to learn Stanis Slosky, and you need to learn this person and this technique. And I'm like, oh I just did like talent shows and stuff in high school, like I, this is so

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

an 18-year-old. And then to be cut to have someone tell you at that age, like 18 years old, oh, you're not an actress, but have a nice day. That's like identity shattering, I think they've since cut the

Jason Blitman:

they have got the cut.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yeah.

Jason Blitman:

The world of theater is so commercial right now, and it's all about what's gonna make money, what's gonna sell, and a book, even if it doesn't. Sell the book is in the world. It can be picked up at the thrift store. It's on the shelf in the bookstore. It came out of you there and there is an opportunity for someone to pick it up.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yes.

Jason Blitman:

could write a play, it can get produced, and then it can never see the light of day ever again.

Erika J. Simpson:

Lost media terrifies

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

this is why I collect DVDs,

Jason Blitman:

Ha. Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

Lost media terrifies me. The things that we cannot ever see again, that someone put their heart and soul into creating,

Jason Blitman:

I know my husband every once in a while was like, will you get rid of some of your CDs? And I was like, no, those are not streamable.

Erika J. Simpson:

Okay

Jason Blitman:

are not all streamable.

Erika J. Simpson:

The moment I don't pay my Apple music and like I go for a walk and it's oh, you don't own a stitch of music. I'm like, oh, it is so terrifying.

Jason Blitman:

Right.

Erika J. Simpson:

I thought I had so many CDs from high school and I was like, look, I have a whole thing for, I open up the folder is nothing but mixed CDs. Nothing but mixed

Jason Blitman:

But we love a mix id.

Erika J. Simpson:

We used to be a culture like, like we

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

this love package of music.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. What would be on your mix tape? What's like the first cup? What's

Erika J. Simpson:

One thing is the first thing that came to

Jason Blitman:

Okay?

Erika J. Simpson:

It's this one thing that's me. Maybe the

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

Love of my life, Erika Badu. Oh

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God. I know. I miss a mixtape.

Erika J. Simpson:

yeah. It's just ugh. And there's so much personality in it.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

sucks because I'm like, oh I thought I had my little bow wow. CDs in my Sierra CDs, but mixed tapes. And you know what that reminds me of the last thing that I just finished reading.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

I read a book. I wrote a book called The AI Who loved me by Issa Cole, wonderful author. You have to read her Royal Reluctant Royal Series. Me and my Sister, that's our jam. But this book, it was originally an audible for Mindy Kay Lang and Regina Hall to read or something.

Jason Blitman:

Okay.

Erika J. Simpson:

But this read like a horror story to me. I was like, okay, y'all keep talking about this chat. GPT Chat. Oh chat. Help me with this. This is where we're going, where you fall in love with a boy and he's a robot. And like it, I was trying to get into it, but I was like, this is scary. This is like actually horrifying.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

I don't, I wanna talk to a human. I want to be with a human. I want, he doesn't feel desire, it's just code. Ugh. It was,

Jason Blitman:

There are some people in my life who have full conversations with their AI thing component, and they talk about them as they're real people, and I'm just like, I, that is not my life right now. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Erika J. Simpson:

the journey I was trying to play with the Snapchat ai. And

Jason Blitman:

Oh,

Erika J. Simpson:

is your like

Jason Blitman:

Uhhuh.

Erika J. Simpson:

And I was like, all right, lemme talk to it. The thing that turned me off that it could not flirt. I know I just said what I said about the AI thing, but I'm like, there's just something so human and just like banta, okay, like going back and forth. If I tried to flirt with him, he'd be like, Google States that two humans that you know. So I'm like,

Jason Blitman:

You're like, no, give me the banter.

Erika J. Simpson:

friend. Have a phone call.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

A human being, that's all.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Talking about why I love reading now. I learned this, the moment I started talking about books around friends. Those people started talking about what they're reading and I was like, wait a minute. We've been friends for 10 years and we've never once talked about a book because I'm a late in life reader. And those people, we, there was no overlap to talk about books. And so all of a sudden I've opened up new doors in terms of engagement.

Erika J. Simpson:

idea.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. So I don't know. It's,

Erika J. Simpson:

Have you ever read a book that's so good and like you have to mail it to someone? Do you know what I mean? I need someone else to read

Jason Blitman:

So it's funny that you say that because you are on the episode with Frederick Backman, the author, and he wrote a book called Anxious People, and I told him I was like, Frederick Anxious People is one of those books that I, whenever I'm at a thrift store, whenever I'm somewhere else, I always buy a copy of it if I see it.

Erika J. Simpson:

it at the thrift store and I was like,

Jason Blitman:

Did you actually Oh that I'm like, I always buy it so that I can give it to someone because I like have my copy, but I always have a bonus copy and so I literally just told him that.

Erika J. Simpson:

I think my book for that is American Marriage by Tiri Jones.

Jason Blitman:

Oh

Erika J. Simpson:

Have you heard of it? It's

Jason Blitman:

yeah. Oh yeah. I know what the cover looks like.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yeah, it's beautiful, but it's about like a woman who like that she's a newlywed and the day that they are like on a honeymoon or something, he gets accused of raping a white woman And then he gets thrown in jail for it and he has to serve the sentence. And they were newlyweds. And so the whole book is them writing back and forth to each other and she becomes like a famous writer. A famous artist from selling dolls of him in prison, so it gets really morally confusing.

Jason Blitman:

Interesting.

Erika J. Simpson:

You just can't stop. I sent it to my friend who was in prison. It all around the jail. He Read this. I got it in the system, honey. I gave it to my best friend who's not a reader,

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

gobbled it up. Like it just feels so good. Just pass, read these words quickly.

Jason Blitman:

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny there some books I say to people, you have to read it quickly because if you Yeah. You need to just get through it so that you can appreciate it for its full realness of it.

Erika J. Simpson:

People read my memoir like that, that it's a quick,

Jason Blitman:

Oh yeah. Super quick, super digestible, emotional moving. Erica, as my guest by reader, I have a question I've been asking everybody, and I think I know what your answer is going to be, but in a,

Erika J. Simpson:

to try to be unique or something.

Jason Blitman:

in moment of amplifying the people in our lives, people who we love, people who are important, if you were to die tomorrow. You had to call someone to clear the search history on your computer. Who are you calling?

Erika J. Simpson:

Oh, me. Oh my. I'm like, what is the search really oh

Jason Blitman:

I love that. That's what your brain is going to first, it's what is my search?

Erika J. Simpson:

hide?

Jason Blitman:

And that will help you decide who it is that you ask.

Erika J. Simpson:

Well, My two best friends Ellen, who is also a cancer, but she's far away,

Jason Blitman:

Okay.

Erika J. Simpson:

And of course Jeremy,

Jason Blitman:

my guess. I figured you would say Jeremy. Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

the nasty. We have emails from the early two thousands that were always like, I'm gonna cancel you with this. Just you wait. you wait. Just you

Jason Blitman:

Oh my God. Just

Erika J. Simpson:

knows where to look. We've got some, we've got some things where I'm like, are you gonna get me back for that?

Jason Blitman:

God, that's so funny. Oh

Erika J. Simpson:

But yeah, he can play the search

Jason Blitman:

yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

each other's darkest and deepest.

Jason Blitman:

Love. This has been so great hearing people amplify these people who have their backs, who ha, who know where the bodies are buried. I love it.

Erika J. Simpson:

When you see each other in the darkest'cause we also had to survive together, me and Jeremy. There

Jason Blitman:

Yeah.

Erika J. Simpson:

where we had no money and we ate oatmeal for every meal. So

Jason Blitman:

Yes. Get your fiber. Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

Yes.

Jason Blitman:

Yes. That oatmeal's going to, right? You were regular, that oatmeal.

Erika J. Simpson:

It was so hot in Chicago. God.

Jason Blitman:

I know.

Erika J. Simpson:

yeah, you gotta have a good support

Jason Blitman:

Yes. j Simpson, this is your mother out today. coming out today. Everyone go get it.

Erika J. Simpson:

five, six. This is your

Jason Blitman:

Yes.

Erika J. Simpson:

God. Please read about my Gemini mother and the adventures that we get into together. Fighting

Jason Blitman:

So special. Congratulations. It has, it's, I like didn't even realize how special it is to watch this journey.

Frederick Backman, Erika Simpson. Thank you both so much for being here. Just, after recording with Erica, went to the thrift store. I. Where I found a copy of an American marriage, which was the book that Erica was talking to me about. And she also went to the thrift store and she found a copy of Anxious People, which is what I was talking to her about. So that was really fun. Everyone go check out my Friends by Frederick Beckman. Make sure to check out this is your mother have a great rest of your day. Bye.

People on this episode

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Jason Blitman

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