0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello, and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, On today's episode, I have Daria Lavelle, whose book Aftertaste comes out today and Kareem, Mr. Bake. Queeman is my guest gay reader their bios can both be found in the show notes. today, May 20th, happens to be my wedding anniversary. Happy anniversary to my husband Franklin. Love you. If you are new to Gay's Reading, welcome. I'm very happy to have you if you are coming back. Thank you so much for joining. Again. If you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at Gays reading on Instagram. We're on Blue Sky. You could watch these episodes over on YouTube as a small indie podcast, it means so much all of the likes, all of the follows, all of the shares, the subscribes, the five star reviews really helps get gaze reading on other people's radar. And I appreciate all of you who have helped push GA's reading even further into the universe. I have started a gaze reading Substack. You could find a whole bunch of really great content over there, including in a couple of weeks. I'm releasing an extremely curated pride book list. The link to the Substack. is in the show notes and also. In the Link tree on Instagram. I'm continuing the partnership with Book Club. To provide an exclusive introductory discount, new members in the United States can join today, enter the code gaze reading at checkout, and get their first book for$4, and that includes free shipping. And now please enjoy this episode of Gaze Reading.

Jason Blitman: 2:12

I met Lucy this weekend.

Daria Lavelle: 2:14

heard, I heard you guys hit it off, and she was so excited and I was so excited. And I love your show and I love all the people you talk to, so I'm like so excited and thrilled to be here.

Jason Blitman: 2:25

I'm so excited to have you. Although, I will say she did gimme a big complex, which like she was like, your aftertaste?

Daria Lavelle: 2:34

Oh, that's a tough question.

Jason Blitman: 2:37

was a stumped And then be so embarrassed that I hadn't thought of it yet. And she was like well, you better think of it before you talk to her.

Daria Lavelle: 2:48

No,

Jason Blitman: 2:48

She didn't actually say it like that but I was like I had, my instinct was that you were gonna get asked that all the time and every, that's gonna be the topic of conversation. So I'm happy to talk about other things instead

Daria Lavelle: 3:00

I mean,

Jason Blitman: 3:00

Wanna hear what your after day says

Daria Lavelle: 3:01

It's it's funny. I feel like, yeah, I feel like. you can have multiple, and I think it also depends on who you're bringing back, who's bringing you back, what that relationship is like, what that food kind of moment is. So you know, there's more than one. It's not so easy.

Jason Blitman: 3:16

I appreciate that. Thank you for seeing me.

Daria Lavelle: 3:19

Also, you're probably very like healthy and well adjusted that you're like, I don't need to come back from the dead. So maybe I don't have one.

Jason Blitman: 3:26

no, No. I was just more thinking about others and yeah. Anyway, we'll talk, we'll that's plenty of a, that's a rabbit hole to go down in a minute. Do you have an elevator pitch for the book? You do. I've

Daria Lavelle: 3:38

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 3:38

it. It's very succinct and creative.

Daria Lavelle: 3:41

I've been trying. Do you want me, do you want me to give it now? Should we start?

Jason Blitman: 3:44

Sure this we've always started. This is, we have started

Daria Lavelle: 3:48

I love it. I love it. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 3:50

about Lucy is gonna be on the beginning of the

Daria Lavelle: 3:52

Oh no, she's gonna love that. Can't wait. Okay so what is this book about? What's the elevator pitch? So it is a

Jason Blitman: 4:01

Aftertaste by Darelle

Daria Lavelle: 4:02

of aftertaste by me. So it is, it's a combination of a lot of different things like any good meal. part ghost story. It's part love story, and it's all food story. So it takes place in the culinary world in New York City, in restaurants and kitchens. And it's about this guy named Constantine who loses his dad at a really young age and soon after develops this ability to taste the food of the dead. So he will experience these dishes and these flavors that he hasn't eaten, that he's maybe never tried before, and he knows that a spirit is there trying to contact him. And this starts with the very first dish, which is his dad's dish. And as he. Grows up and gets older. He keeps this a really hidden secret. It freaks him out as it would freak most of us out. And he's in his thirties, he's stuck in this dead end job. He's washing dishes at his speakeasy and he decides to finally act on an aftertaste that he experiences there. And he discovers that by cooking the food that he's been tasting, he can actually bring a spirit back from the afterlife for one last meal with somebody they love. So he sets off to open a restaurant in New York City serving closure and discovers along the way that he's falling in love with somebody with her own connection to the afterlife. And he also discovers maybe too late that there are consequences to messing with spirits and the spirit life.

Jason Blitman: 5:18

It was hearing you say serving closure I think on your Instagram or something where I was like that is two word. Description of the book.

Daria Lavelle: 5:28

I think that's the thing that kind of. Brings everything out for Constantine. That's what he thinks he's doing. He wants to be the good guy and give all of this to everyone who's eating his food and doesn't necessarily turn out the way he planned.

Jason Blitman: 5:39

Yeah. There I'm like, are so many rabbit holes I want to go down. And if you're a fan of the show, then you know, I don't necessarily love taking a straightforward route in terms of talking about things and frankly prefer to talk about things that you won't be talking about elsewhere.

Daria Lavelle: 5:56

Which I love.

Jason Blitman: 5:58

but I'm curious to hear about your relationship to, Tarot to the sort of other world of aftertaste. There is, yeah. Let's start with that. And then there's, I'm curious to learn about how you fell down the rabbit holes of like Claire Gunton Claire. Claire Guston.

Daria Lavelle: 6:21

Guston.

Jason Blitman: 6:22

Yes.

Daria Lavelle: 6:23

Okay, so I will caveat by saying that I'm Eastern European, I'm Ukrainian, and we are incredibly superstitious people. I want to generalize that. My family is, when I tell you we have a superstition for everything, like you name it, we do it to the point where some examples, if I leave the house and I've forgotten something, let's say I forget my keys. I need to return to the house. And before I do anything else, before I find said keys, I have to look in a mirror to make sure that a bad spirit has not followed me in. This is like legit, like I live my life with all of this surrounded by it. So you know, things like when someone is traveling, you don't clean the house. Like before you go on a big trip, you have to sit for like a minute. Like all of these things

Jason Blitman: 7:06

were these things taught to you?

Daria Lavelle: 7:08

we just did the, we, like my parents just started to do the always did them growing up, it's just that.

Jason Blitman: 7:13

they did them and so then you followed

Daria Lavelle: 7:15

So I'd belittle and I'd forget something. I'd be like, look in the mirror. Go back and look in the mirror. So all of these things are very much around me in my everyday life. And I think I'm also a person who I'm deeply, spiritually in tune. I believe in the spirit world. I believe that the people we love who've lost, we've lost don't actually leave us. They're still here in some capacity. Like I can feel their presence at different times in my life. I've had like weird dream experiences where things have come true. So all of that is I'm primed for all of the tarot and the afterlife and all of those things, just like living in the world as a person. And when I was it's such a good question. No one's asked me this before. So well done. You when I was in middle school. I read an article in Teen Magazine because that was like what you did, and it was all about Nordic ruins.

Jason Blitman: 8:06

you remember who was on the cover?

Daria Lavelle: 8:07

Oh God, I couldn't tell. It was probably Brittany or Christina. Probably.

Jason Blitman: 8:12

I just wasn't sure if it was like a very specific cherished

Daria Lavelle: 8:16

No. Oh my gosh, no. My parents moved recently and they purged everything. So any hope of finding that again is lost. But,

Jason Blitman: 8:23

so funny. Okay, so you're reading this article.

Daria Lavelle: 8:25

reading this article and it was very obscure for Teen. It was like, here's how you cast Nordic ruins and you can make your own, and here are all the symbols and here's what they mean. And if you're not familiar with Nordic Ruins, it's tarot in the sense that you sleep with this little pouch of rocks, each of which has a little symbol on it under your pillow. You infuse it with your energy, and then you pull it out and you ask a question and it's like an open-ended question. And you draw a room and just tarot, if it's face up, it means one thing. If it's inverted, it means something else. And rather than giving you like a clear answer, it gives you a question to ask or like a pathway to think about what this thing means. What are you pondering? So if you ask should I leave my job? It might say something like, oh, you've drawn isa. That means stand still. So maybe you're stuck in your job and think about are you happy in this current position? Do you want to move on to something different? So it's like it gives you a framework to think about stuff, which is what I love also about tarot. So I got into this whole divination idea but always been into it from this article on teen. Yeah, I know that writer somewhere is like, I've made it. I've done it.

Jason Blitman: 9:37

Oh my God.

Daria Lavelle: 9:38

and. Yeah. So I, it's always been a part of my life, not in the sense of I'm like reading tarot cards every day, but I think I'm a person who likes to reflect and ask questions. And having that framework of being guided by something is really helpful to me. So that was the way into the character Maura who is a party psychic. That was my big connection to her. And I think a lot of what she does is introspection and thinking about how can this go wrong? How can this go right? What are the different pathways that can be open based on this journey?

Jason Blitman: 10:08

I had my tarot red for the first time

Daria Lavelle: 10:10

Ooh,

Jason Blitman: 10:11

year-ish ago,

Daria Lavelle: 10:12

exciting.

Jason Blitman: 10:13

and. I didn't really feel one way or another about tarot. And then she read my cards and I was like, I'm a believer. But I also, someone just told me I had to do my star chart, my astrology chart for

Daria Lavelle: 10:25

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 10:26

And the things I not only not learned, but it said things like. You're a person who has like random, minor ailments

Daria Lavelle: 10:37

Interesting.

Jason Blitman: 10:38

has random, minor ailments.

Daria Lavelle: 10:40

You know what? People balk at this all the time and they're like, what are you believing in? This is like all whohoo voodoo kind of stuff, and it's listen, maybe in some people's hands it would be, but I genuinely think there are people who are just like. Connected to the universe and they've put stuff, they've put feelers out there and they can receive in certain ways, and why? Why should we ignore it? It's a data point. It doesn't have to be your whole life. It's a data point.

Jason Blitman: 11:05

course. And I like, literally, I have gout, I have kidney

Daria Lavelle: 11:08

Oh God.

Jason Blitman: 11:09

I've had shingles,

Daria Lavelle: 11:12

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 11:12

like I'm

Daria Lavelle: 11:14

all the minor ail ones. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:16

I'm like, so weird. Okay, so how did you get to Claire Gustine,

Daria Lavelle: 11:21

Okay. So yes, so I'll start with what it means. So everyone's heard of clairvoyance. So that's like being able to see something from the spirit world that comes from ye, which is the verb in French for, to be able to see. And there's actually one of these psychic Claires is what they call them, psychic connections for each of the five senses. You can hear from the afterlife. You can see from the afterlife, you can feel from the afterlife. And so tasting is called clear distance. And it's interesting because I did not know the word for this going into this story. This is a thing where I was like, I had come up with this idea in like 2013. The scene just came to me. I was sitting, I was I had worked in advertising. I was one of these stereotypical people where I would like do my day job and then it'd be seven at night and I'd run over to a cafe and I'd be there with my little laptop clicking away until they kicked me out. And during one of these writing sessions, I had this vision moment, whatever you want, divine intervention, whatever you wanna call it. And it was this scene of this guy in this really crappy Hell's Kitchen apartment. And he's plating this dish and it's, he's like really meticulous, but he is making it beautiful. He sets it on the table and this beautiful glittering ghost comes through the wall to try to eat the food. And I had no idea what this meant, why the food was there, what he was doing, what she was doing, were they related? Is it random? Can you do this all the time? All these questions. And I knew that it was special and I knew that I wanted to follow it, and it was intriguing to me and it haunted me and didn't wanna let me go. And I started to put together over years, like little breadcrumbs of ideas, things that seemed related to it, things that didn't seem related to it. And at one point I was going down a rabbit hole on Wikipedia as one does. And I don't know how I even got to this page. I must have been searching something about tarot or psychics or something. And I saw this little note for Psychic Claire's and I clicked, and it was one of these you know how you can get to Wikipedia in a way where there's a lot of really robust information and a thousand links, or you can wind up on this one page that one person, like accidentally put, I has one line. That's what this was. It was like, there are five second Claires, one for each sense, and here's what they're called. And clear distance is the ability to taste something of the dead. So that's where it began and ended. And of course I tried to search for more information on it, and there just wasn't a ton. It was a lot of similar to the other psychic senses, it's like about a particular person. So if they were a smoker, maybe the medium is tasting a cigarette. If they had a particular, lip gloss, they wore, maybe that flavor is appearing, but it wasn't in the sense of these meals or, sense memory in terms of food. But as soon as I read that, like the light bulb went off in my head, I was like, wait, this is that story. This is that guy in that kitchen and that ghost. This is how that connection works.

Jason Blitman: 14:17

you weren't doing this. You weren't down this rabbit hole Of that idea.

Daria Lavelle: 14:22

No.

Jason Blitman: 14:22

Happened to be down a rabbit hole that then reminded you of that idea Like, this is where I need to go with it.

Daria Lavelle: 14:28

yes. I put that idea away. It was, like I said, it was like 2013 and I had all of those questions and I didn't know the answers yet. And I had this feeling that I was like, this is a really big idea. I need to treat this with the respect and care that it deserves. And I'm not like ready to write it. I tried to write into it a couple of different ways. And I kept getting stuck and it kept being just scenes of this guy in his apartment. And I was like, this is bigger than this. What is this? And so I, I said, okay, I'm gonna keep this idea on the back burner, work on some other things, and that, that's where I was when I had this Wikipedia moment. And I was like, wait a minute. That's it. That's the thing.

Jason Blitman: 15:03

That's so fascinating. Have you ever experienced anything like that? Have you ever experienced anything like clairegustance?

Daria Lavelle: 15:13

Oh, that's such a good question. I think I experience, it's a weird, really weird thing to say, textures of words. So it's a different kind of synesthesia, like when I'm writing every once in a while I'll get stuck for a word and I'm, I know. I know what I want it to do in terms of the sound in the sentence, like how many syllables it has to be, does it end a certain way? Does it have a certain poetry, a certain rhythm to it? And I know what I'm searching for, but I don't, and I know the definition of the word, but I'm like searching for the word and I'll find myself like doing this, like rubbing my fingers together, trying to get the texture. And when I hit on it, it's like I, I feel it. It's such a weird thing to say, but yeah, I've never confessed that to anyone. So you're the first

Jason Blitman: 16:30

That's so interesting. We never really know where that stuff in quotation marks like comes from. I can't say that I've ever experienced clear gustine either, but I fell down a rabbit hole of taste memories

Daria Lavelle: 16:45

Mm,

Jason Blitman: 16:46

s sense memories a lot,

Daria Lavelle: 16:47

totally.

Jason Blitman: 16:48

With the author Sean Hewitt, he talks in his book a lot about So it's the sense, sense memory of smell. He and I talked a lot about that and I

Daria Lavelle: 16:56

Oh, I love that.

Jason Blitman: 16:57

thought too much about the sense memory of taste. But yeah, food, it's just like associations that we have

Daria Lavelle: 17:05

Smell and taste are also so related. Like you can't, if you lose your sense of smell, your taste completely changes and gets thrown off. It's fascinating. It's funny I think you talk about smell reminded me of it. Like I, I definitely have really strong sense memories to perfumes too. So I'll I'll smell somebody once and then six years later be in a room and be like, oh my God, it's this person.

Jason Blitman: 17:28

Yeah. It's I was gonna say that's what a dog must feel like, but that sounds like such a, I like, don't mean to sound like I'm calling you a dog.

Daria Lavelle: 17:35

No. I'll take it. Dogs are delightful.

Jason Blitman: 17:37

are delightful. But that's, they're so good at that because of smell and what a cool experience to have, to to be able to really see someone beyond eyes,

Daria Lavelle: 17:50

Yeah. Yeah. And I think with food especially, it's it's such a personal thing too, like what you eat and what you've had prepared for you and what has formed, the cuisine of your childhood as opposed to your flavor profile, your palate as you get older and like you make your own food choices. It's so interesting and I think, cooking for someone is so intimate and cooking together is so intimate and you get to know each other on these different levels. So I think it's one of these it's always a pivotal moment, I feel in a friendship or a relationship where you have someone to your home and you cook for them and you make them like something that means something to you.

Jason Blitman: 18:25

Yeah. What is that thing for you?

Daria Lavelle: 18:28

Oh, that's such a good question. So I love making comfort dishes. I love making stews and pastas and something that like sits and sims for a long time and kind of falls apart. So that's always something that I love to cook for people, especially because it's it's a long ritual of making something so it takes a lot of care and it's not something you're necessarily gonna do on a weeknight, after the kids are home from school and you're whipping something together. Um, So I feel like to me, those dishes that take a lot of time are the ones that, that I'll go towards. Um, Ooh, yes, please. I'll trade you, I'll give you my bologne.

Jason Blitman: 19:03

Yes. Okay.

Daria Lavelle: 19:05

But yeah I think I gravitate towards that. And then. I also gravitate towards the food that I grew up with. So I my husband is not Ukrainian and so making some of that food for him, and especially when my parents make it for both of us, it's so nourishing. And like him getting to see a glimmer of what I was like as a kid by eating that food is really special too.

Jason Blitman: 19:24

when you think of like a taste memory for you, is it a lot of that, is it to Ukrainian roots or,

Daria Lavelle: 19:33

I think, yeah, a lot of my childhood memories are all centered around food. Lots of Pima ches or different kinds of dumplings. My mom makes this one dish. It's like a, it's called, it's these little, like these meat hand pies that are so good. I don't know how they they're like, I don't know, Eastern European and pinatas, they're delicious. And they're just so good. I don't know how they haven't caught on more here. So that always brings me way back to being a little kid. But it's funny the taste memories I have that are the most potent are like really random. I have this very bizarre, very negative taste memory of those conversation hearts that you get when you're, when it's Valentine's Day. So I remember being really little I don't know, four or five. And I was in nursery school, and it must have been around Valentine's Day. I had come with. A box of'em. And I was not a kid who napped, I hated napping. And this is this is gonna show so basic. So I hated napping. I didn't wanna do it. And I had this one really good friend at this school, and she promised me that she was gonna stay up through nap time and she fell asleep. And I felt so betrayed. I felt so just heartbroken. And I was crying in that way that little kids cry where it's like heaving and you can't stop and you can't breathe. And I was trying to console myself by eating these conversation hearts. And so they're like dripping out of my mouth. There's like this sad, peppermint mixed with tears. So it's like it was so potent to this day. I can't eat them without that coming back to me.

Jason Blitman: 21:06

Yeah, no, of course. It's like really equated to that specific

Daria Lavelle: 21:11

Right.

Jason Blitman: 21:12

You'd feel that way.

Daria Lavelle: 21:13

And I feel like everyone's got something like that.

Jason Blitman: 21:17

Yeah. It's I have a traumatic experience with a very specific kind of pasta

Daria Lavelle: 21:23

Oh no.

Jason Blitman: 21:23

and I, this even like a year ago, I think my husband made it Took a bite and I was like, I. Can't re I like, I'll eat this for dinner'cause I'm hungry, but this is not, I like

Daria Lavelle: 21:39

oh,

Jason Blitman: 21:39

this again. yeah. From some childhood trauma.

Daria Lavelle: 21:43

oh God.

Jason Blitman: 21:43

Yeah. Yeah. Were the book obviously is so much about food. Something else that Lucy said was, the book makes you so hungry. Was like, I was thinking that the whole time, but it's such a, it's such a generic thing to that people say about food books. But I was like, no, but this food, this book really makes you hungry.

Daria Lavelle: 22:05

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 22:06

There's no other way to talk about it. what is your relationship like with cooking, with kitchens, with the New York City food scene? I know you consider yourself a foodie, obviously. Like you couldn't write a book like this if you didn't. Are you a. Are you a big Michelin starred restaurant person?

Daria Lavelle: 22:24

I am incredibly omnivorous in my eating. Like I love a tasting menu. I do. I love sitting down and like being taken care of in that way. And I think part of that experience is so much about the service, even as much as the food. And in one of those, when you go to Love and Madison Park, everything is so meticulous and the plating is so meticulous and there's so much storytelling through food. And so I think it's really a special experience to get that. At the same time, I am like the street meat girl. Like you walk past a halal truck and it smells delicious and you can't not stop. Like I love a New York hot dog. Like all of that.

Jason Blitman: 22:57

Wait. We have to go back to this. There, there is this like very frustrating thing too, where the street meat smells

Daria Lavelle: 23:04

Always. Always.

Jason Blitman: 23:06

Nuts.

Daria Lavelle: 23:07

The nuts for nuts. Oh, I have been betrayed by nuts. For nuts so many times.

Jason Blitman: 23:13

Yes. For anyone who's only listening and not watching Daria's fist shook in the air, the nuts were nuts. know. It smells so good. But that's

Daria Lavelle: 23:24

Yeah. Especially on a cold day in New York City like that, caramelized vanilla, that delicious smell is just wafting towards you on the air.

Jason Blitman: 23:33

freezing cold. Yeah.

Daria Lavelle: 23:36

Yeah. And then you can eat exactly two cashews and they're delicious. But then the third one, you're like, this is way too sweet. I need a balance. But yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:46

could do everything from 11

Daria Lavelle: 23:47

But yes to like, like street meat. Very high and low. And I think that's what I love about New York City, that you can have those experiences and you can have the best meal you've ever had at a total dive. I love that there's a sense of discovery, not just in these really high-end places, but basically ev you can walk down the street and find a random, tiny pizza place, and it's like the best thing you've ever eaten. Um, Which is what I love. And I think I, I grew up with a family that cooked a lot. My parents made everything from scratch. When I say everything, everything from pickles to smoked salmon to my mom would make farmer's cheese, like all sorts of things. It was just how they grew up with what they did, what their parents did. And so I, I always had that in my mind. Like the food we ate was never, we didn't go out very much when I was a really little kid. So it was all homemade at home, traditional food. And then my parents got really adventurous and they started just buying cookbooks and making different cuisines. So that was my introduction to that too. We had like, yeah, it was really fun. We had the food network on all the time constantly. I remember being really little, eight or nine years old, and I would wake up really early. My parents would be like, go find something to occupy yourself. And so I would make breakfast. I would cook croissants or buns or something like that, and they'd wake up and there'd be this like whole spread. So I was always very into it. I loved. I loved experiencing what it was like to make stuff.'cause I loved watching my parents do it. So that was my foray into cooking and flavors and all of that. And then as I got bigger, I loved to go to restaurants and try what other people are making I

Jason Blitman: 25:21

the very opposite experience of you as a kid where like it was jarred sauce and it was frozen vegetables and it was, nothing was made from scratch. So as I got older and I was like, wait, there's, you can roast vegetables with,

Daria Lavelle: 25:38

a whole world.

Jason Blitman: 25:39

and salt and spices and it's delicious. Yeah, it was a whole different experience for me. I'm what. You could interpret this question however you want, but what does it mean to be a good taster?

Daria Lavelle: 25:54

That's a good question. So for me, I think it's being really conscious of what you're eating and thinking about. There are lots of ways to taste and I am absolutely guilty of like, when I'm hungry, I will scarf something down and barely know what I'm eating.

Jason Blitman: 26:07

Yeah.

Daria Lavelle: 26:08

But I think if you're really tasting, it's, what are the layers that compose this thing? What are the flavors? How do those flavors blend together? Does it feel balanced? Yes or no? And why? And I think part of it too is thinking about where does this dish come from in the world? And in terms of like the person who made it for you and how did it come to be on your plate? I think a big part of what I did in writing this book was thinking about, what are the dishes that these spirits are eating that are compelling enough to bring them back? And like why are they eating this particular thing? Why is it. This peanut butter and jelly with the crust cut off badly instead of this fancy meal they once had at this five star restaurant. So I think part of it is also being able to taste like the memory and the nuance and what you're eating. I think every dish has a story even like the fast thing that is put together and slapped together has the story of this is a person who is out of time and they put together something with what they had because they had to feed their family. Like that

Jason Blitman: 27:11

yeah. The idea of food as storytelling, I find super interesting. My roommate before moving into an apartment with. The guy who would become my husband he was a, I would call him a chef. He would call himself a cook. He was a cook at per se.

Daria Lavelle: 27:30

That's very fancy.

Jason Blitman: 27:31

Yeah. I mean he was like capital C

Daria Lavelle: 27:35

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:36

it was always so interesting to be a fly on the wall Because, he would be cooking at Michelin starred restaurants and come home and eat a subway sandwich or order dominoes. Or

Daria Lavelle: 27:52

of course.

Jason Blitman: 27:53

and sometimes he would cook for himself and he would let me taste and it would be like the best carbonara I've ever had, or I will never forget. He made this lasagna once

Daria Lavelle: 28:04

I'm already drilling,

Jason Blitman: 28:04

I know it was just like out of control because he just, he went to the cordon blue. He like fully understood what it meant to cook.

Daria Lavelle: 28:13

right. I also feel like getting to see into different kitchens and getting to experience, what is it like at that Michelin starred rave review, world renowned kitchen versus what is it like at the diner down the block? I think it's, in some ways it's very different. In other ways you're still making food, right? So it's it's still, the goals are the same and a lot of the techniques might be the same. Maybe your level of exactness in terms of execution and precision might differ but, but at the end of the day, I think the goal is still to give something delicious to the person eating it.

Jason Blitman: 28:47

That's a very interesting point because there's a difference between your goal and the expectation of

Daria Lavelle: 28:52

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 28:54

So your goal is the same, but the expectation of the consumer is different

Daria Lavelle: 28:58

Yes. Correct. Correct.

Jason Blitman: 29:00

You're still cooking a great meal. Yeah. Going back to just talking about taste. My brain kept short circuiting because I was thinking about taste as in what you're putting in your mouth and As in like your taste in

Daria Lavelle: 29:17

Music or Right.

Jason Blitman: 29:18

music, your taste in clothes, and just like how it all sort of interconnects and like

Daria Lavelle: 29:24

Mm.

Jason Blitman: 29:25

did the like etymology of the word taste, did that come across, did you come across anything like that when you were writing?

Daria Lavelle: 29:32

That's so funny. What a good question. I didn't come across anything like that specifically as I was writing, but I think when you build character, that kind of naturally happens, right? Especially this book forced me to think about character in a different way because I was using taste and using food as a proxy for in, in another book that character might have just been described based on what they were wearing or what kind of job they had, or, where they lived, their background, all of that. And I found that I was using the aftertaste and their dishes as the way to draw all of that out. And so I think naturally I. You're describing the physical taste of the food they're eating, but that's so informed by their, like the other taste, their taste in everything else, who they are. So I think subconsciously I had to think about all of that. And every single dish is very much informed by who these characters are and how I saw them and where they are in the world and why something would appeal versus not. And like where they were at the point in their lives when they ate this dish and what their taste was then. So I think all of it plays, and I think you're right, that like your palate is you're still, you, it's consistent whether you're eating, something for dinner or you're choosing what to wear, what music to listen to or book to read.

Jason Blitman: 30:47

I am. I was curious. Googled what's the origin of the word taste?

Daria Lavelle: 30:54

interesting. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 30:56

Oh, interesting. In the root word is an old English word that means to perceive what the tongue,

Daria Lavelle: 31:04

Okay, I can see that.

Jason Blitman: 31:06

Ian Tassian. But so what I find fascinating, I guess my point really is that I kept wondering chicken and egg like taste in music. Does that come from taste in your mouth? I guess the answer is yes, if the origin is from your tongue.

Daria Lavelle: 31:22

I bet it, and you know what I, is it a Greek origin,

Jason Blitman: 31:25

Oh, no old English. I think it's a

Daria Lavelle: 31:27

old English? Because it, it reminds me of like how in ancient Greek there was like the wine red sea, but the ocean was perceived as being blue because of certain things. So did you have the language for something? I wonder if there's some sort of further back origin.

Jason Blitman: 31:43

gonna say something else in Hebrew, it's about perception.

Daria Lavelle: 31:49

Okay, I can see that.

Jason Blitman: 31:51

So like the taste on your tongue is that perception on your tongue, your taste, your Is the perception in your ears. Oh, fascinating.

Daria Lavelle: 31:57

Like your audio flavor profile. I love that.

Jason Blitman: 31:59

Yes, exactly.'Cause it also just had me thinking about, my background is in theater, and theater is an ephemeral art form, Never really thought about food as being an ephemeral art form as well.

Daria Lavelle: 32:11

Yeah. I think it's one of those things where like you can only eat a particular thing that way the one time. And that's what's so funny about this premise because Constantine's whole goal and attempt is to recreate that thing. You had the one time, exactly the way that it was using, obviously like the chicken that he's making is different from the chicken that you had, 10 years ago. But he's trying to replicate what that experience is like on the tongue. And he's doing it by interpreting the taste that you're sending to him.

Jason Blitman: 32:40

And what I find so interesting too is he doesn't necessarily recognize, he doesn't know all the flavors. He

Daria Lavelle: 32:49

Right?

Jason Blitman: 32:49

the tastes. So there's something so interesting about like how you inherently know something that you don't actually know.

Daria Lavelle: 32:56

It's like that's that medium working through him, the subconscious, like he's getting fed not just the flavor, but like what these ingredients are so that he can go ahead and try to replicate it.

Jason Blitman: 33:05

It's so funny what you just said. You said he's getting fed and there's so much of that throughout the

Daria Lavelle: 33:12

So I, I only talk in food puns now.

Jason Blitman: 33:14

But what's hilarious is like they don't even, unless you sort of circle back to, oh yeah, this is a book about food, they're so naturally put in, what did I specifically write down? Oh, something being worth their salt. And I was like, oh yeah, that's like a turn of phrase someone would say. But it just so happens to also be very inherent to the book.

Daria Lavelle: 33:34

I am very big on wordplay. It's something that I love to do in writing and I'm also really big on like shop talk, for lack of a better word, like under in the sense of I feel like you can really get inside a character's head if you understand the speech of their job or the place they live or their vernacular in a way that makes it feel so much more authentic than if you don't have that. It seems like such a little thing, but just being able to get kitchen talk. Or if you're talking about a mechanic getting all the auto parts right, which I could never do. But I, I think having that infuses this sort of like ude and for me, Having the language of food live in the story was a really important way to constantly bring the reader back to the fact that this is about food, this is about connection. Look at all of the ways that food affects our lives beyond just breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Jason Blitman: 34:25

Yeah. And. Yes, it is a book about food. Yes, there's a lot of illusions to food. Yes, it is. There is a lot of joy. But there is this very interesting, like macab to And again, something I heard you talk about on your Instagram and I thought about while I was reading, forgot and then heard you say it on your Instagram, it is a cousin of pushing daisies

Daria Lavelle: 34:48

yes. Very much.

Jason Blitman: 34:50

something, there is this like happy sadness to the whole book. What was balancing that like for you?

Daria Lavelle: 34:58

It was really intentional because I knew when I had this idea that I was going to be talking about. Ghosts and the spirit world and the afterlife and grief and loss. But I also didn't wanna write a book that was just sad. So I wanted to make sure that it felt like a meal. It felt balanced, it had the happy and the sad. And I wanted to make sure that Constantine and Maura and Frankie and the other characters around him could experience life to its fullest. Because I also feel like that's one of the magical parts of New York City, and especially if you're talking about food and New York and being young and exploring all of that, I think the joy jumps off the page. It wanted to be there. I wanted to use the book as a way to, to remember the places that I loved in my twenties and thirties in New York City. So many of the places that pop up throughout the book are either like actual real places that you could have visited in 2017, or like very thin thinly veiled versions.

Jason Blitman: 35:58

Yeah. speaking of, you talk about how no two people can experience Manhattan in the same way. Obviously that is a very we're on our own journey. In turn, no one can experience it in the same way, but do you have could you articulate how you experienced Manhattan?

Daria Lavelle: 36:16

Yeah, I think I was, at the time when we lived in Manhattan, my, my now husband, my then boyfriend slash fiance and I had just gotten engaged. I had just left my job in the suburbs of New Jersey and was working at an ad agency in New York City. I was young and in my twenties, and I had all of these interests and pursuits I was writing. I was going to the opera, which I'm obsessed with, like a little old lady. I love.

Jason Blitman: 36:43

not a fan.

Daria Lavelle: 36:45

I'll convert you. Don't worry if you know what to look for. It's really good. But I was having these moments in my life where I was just saying yes to everything I had. I didn't have a lot that was holding me back. And so I was, going out with friends and trying new foods and going to these fabulous restaurants and going for drinks after work. And it was just vibrant and fun. And that those were like the memories that I was trying to put into Constantine, despite the fact that he wants to be antisocial and he wants to be reserved and not do those fun things. Thank God for Frankie who pulls him out and pushes him into, seeing the world for what it could be.

Jason Blitman: 37:17

Yeah. I love that. Talking about your Manhattan made me think about my Manhattan, which in turn like popped up other potential aftertastes of mine.

Daria Lavelle: 37:29

share.

Jason Blitman: 37:30

Is the ricotta cheesecake at Pepino.

Daria Lavelle: 37:35

Okay. No, but now I'm putting it on my list right now.

Jason Blitman: 37:39

it is a must. It is a must go it's way downtown. is.

Daria Lavelle: 37:44

Literally typing it right now.

Jason Blitman: 37:46

My husband and I like watched through the snow one day to go get the cheesecake and pepino. there is a restaurant on House den called Arturo's.

Daria Lavelle: 37:56

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 37:56

Italian restaurant that is like my husband's family has been going for

Daria Lavelle: 38:01

Amazing. Amazing.

Jason Blitman: 38:03

and so I have also been introduced to this place and have been going now for many years. And their chicken parm is

Daria Lavelle: 38:10

Oh, I love a chicken farm.

Jason Blitman: 38:12

it like makes my mouth water.

Daria Lavelle: 38:15

It's a perfect food.

Jason Blitman: 38:17

Seriously. And they like what's the, I don't, oh my God. My, my former roommate Jackson is gonna be so embarrassed, but it's, what's the

Daria Lavelle: 38:26

They butterfly it. Oh,

Jason Blitman: 38:28

it's pounded. It's

Daria Lavelle: 38:29

okay. Gotcha. They gotcha. For a schnitzel. It has a word.

Jason Blitman: 38:34

a schnitzel. Yeah. And it's just, it's so good. So it's like thin and delicious.

Daria Lavelle: 38:39

so good.

Jason Blitman: 38:40

What's yours? I have another one I'll share with you in a minute.

Daria Lavelle: 38:43

Okay. So I have a very, I've been, I have a lot of different ones, but this is the one that I always default to.'cause I think this is the one that has the best expression of what an aftertaste is. So it's very specific. It is the chocolate cog dessert that was on the menu at the Jewel Verne Restaurant, which is on the Eiffel Tower circa 2012 in the fall, which is when my husband then boyfriend and I were there. We took a trip and we had two nights in Paris and he surprised me. With this incredible reservation at this restaurant. And it was beautiful. Like we're you're up on the Eiffel Tower and like the sun had just set, it was gorgeous. And they served us this dish that was like literally the size of a dinner plate, like a chocolate cog, like the piece of hardware holding the Eiffel Tower together. And it was MOUs and it was decadent and rich and delicious. And we ate a couple of bites and we were both so nervous we couldn't finish it because I suspected that he might be about to propose and he knew he was about to propose. And so we had this dish and then we went out to this, he found this like weird back entrance to this balcony that overlooked Paris. And he got down on one knee and he asked me to marry him, and then it started to pour rain. So we're standing there and it's super romantic and we're like drenched and newly engaged and in love and like this taste of chocolate and the smell of just rain in the air. That's my aftertaste. That would bring me back every time.

Jason Blitman: 40:09

I love that. That reminds me. It's funny, the few that came to mind like I think have meaningful. Connections, but not necessarily one story Deeply connected. I think I didn't go deep enough, is what I'm saying. Not that they're bad. You, I know you're not judging me. I'm judging myself.

Daria Lavelle: 40:28

Zero judgment.

Jason Blitman: 40:29

So I'll share two others. One, the first that came to mind was when I was living in Harlem I would go to a bodega and, like basically build my own bodega sandwich. And

Daria Lavelle: 40:44

one does EZ one must.

Jason Blitman: 40:45

And it like wasn't one of their pre-made ones. It wasn't a typical Turkey sandwich, but it was like a spicy chicken with pepper jack cheese and sauteed peppers and onions with mayo.

Daria Lavelle: 40:57

Well done.

Jason Blitman: 40:58

And it was just like, it was like my go-to order and they, to the point where the bodega knew what my order was. And it just like that sort of as a. Yorker was so special. To walk in somewhere and they like know what your special

Daria Lavelle: 41:12

Yeah, your regular order.

Jason Blitman: 41:13

Yeah. that was the very first thing that came to mind hearing your story. When my husband and I were on our honeymoon we were in Rome and we were at this fantastic restaurant called De Enzo, and it's in tri ere in this like a little alleyway.

Daria Lavelle: 41:30

Aw.

Jason Blitman: 41:30

literally our table was in an alley and we had to move it to different times so that a small car could go by. But we ordered tiramisu for dessert and they only had one left. So

Daria Lavelle: 41:42

Oh, and you had to share it. I love that.

Jason Blitman: 41:46

very bottom was like a, I can't remember if it was like a truffle, I think it might have been a truffle like a chocolate truffle that like burst in my mouth. And it

Daria Lavelle: 41:56

Ah,

Jason Blitman: 41:56

the most delicious things I've ever had.

Daria Lavelle: 41:59

I love that.

Jason Blitman: 42:00

was only one.

Daria Lavelle: 42:01

Ah. Oh,

Jason Blitman: 42:03

the only one of the two of us

Daria Lavelle: 42:05

who got to experience it? So your husband can only live vicariously through your description?

Jason Blitman: 42:10

exactly. And it

Daria Lavelle: 42:11

Oh, no.

Jason Blitman: 42:12

here Mao, so we couldn't even get another one.

Daria Lavelle: 42:14

You know what you have to do, you have to go back now.

Jason Blitman: 42:16

I know. I know. So that for me, I think is, it encapsulates an aftertaste even more.

Daria Lavelle: 42:23

But also that's real love that, that you got to have it.

Jason Blitman: 42:27

I don't think at the time we realized it was the only one. I was like, oh my God, what did I just put in my mouth? And he was like, tell me more and let me have some. And

Daria Lavelle: 42:36

Oh, no.

Jason Blitman: 42:36

wasn't a, I know. It was not a conscious choice. I know.

Daria Lavelle: 42:40

But I love that it's a moment that you guys remember together and that you're in this special experience together, that is what an aftertaste is. For sure.

Jason Blitman: 42:47

I, this has like only been a conversation about food. The,

Daria Lavelle: 42:51

Um,

Jason Blitman: 42:52

Does it mean to you to feel full? To be satiated?

Daria Lavelle: 42:57

I mean, I think there's the physical sense of you've eaten a really delicious meal and you feel like your body is no, no longer hungry. But I am also an emotional eater and so if I am sad or upset about something, I will eat the whole bag of chips. I'll take down the whole thing of m and mss, all the Reeses in the house and. So I think for me, part of feeling satiated is also feeling like safe and comfortable and feeling like a sense of calm and peace. And so I think the meals that I have, where it's really relaxed and I'm with my family and we're having a conversation and it's one of those the dessert has been lingering out on the table and you're sitting with your coffee and you're just like talking and everyone's just happy and you're like, making that moment, like that to me is the most satisfying.

Jason Blitman: 43:44

Yeah. It's so funny too.'cause I, yes, like that all makes complete sense to me. And yet I also am thinking about what it means to have a full heart

Daria Lavelle: 43:57

Mm

Jason Blitman: 43:58

To be satiated emotionally or mentally. And the ways that, I don't know, the way that we compare everything in our world to. Food and

Daria Lavelle: 44:07

mm.

Jason Blitman: 44:08

Full and fulfilled,

Daria Lavelle: 44:10

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:11

that very fascinating.

Daria Lavelle: 44:13

I think there's a big connection between being satiated and feeling fulfilled with the full, the fullness. But there's also similarly there's so many ways to be hungry, right? There's the physical hunger, and then there's like hunger for touch, hunger for attention, hunger for affection, for connection. And so one of the things that I wanted to try to play with in this book too was the discovery of all of those things and the different kinds of hunger.

Jason Blitman: 44:35

Totally. I think that's why all of the sort of wordplay felt so natural, because that's the way to describe it.

Daria Lavelle: 44:45

Right?

Jason Blitman: 44:45

hungry for touch. There's no other way

Daria Lavelle: 44:48

There's no other way to say it.

Jason Blitman: 44:50

Okay. Lightning round,

Daria Lavelle: 44:52

Oh, no. Okay. I'm ready.

Jason Blitman: 44:54

sweet or savory.

Daria Lavelle: 44:57

Oh. Oh, no. That I can't answer that. Sour.

Jason Blitman: 45:02

Oh,

Daria Lavelle: 45:02

Maybe neither.

Jason Blitman: 45:03

Curve ball. Okay. Breakfast. Sweet or savory.

Daria Lavelle: 45:07

Sweet,

Jason Blitman: 45:08

Oh, interesting. Okay. Breakfast for dinner or dinner for breakfast.

Daria Lavelle: 45:13

dinner for breakfast.

Jason Blitman: 45:16

Whoa.

Daria Lavelle: 45:17

very weird. Very weird.

Jason Blitman: 45:19

Tacos. Hard shell. Soft shell.

Daria Lavelle: 45:22

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 45:24

Yes. Good answer. Coffee or tea?

Daria Lavelle: 45:27

Coffee in the morning, tea at night.

Jason Blitman: 45:29

Pizza. Pineapples. Yes or no?

Daria Lavelle: 45:32

Yes. Yes, but not always.

Jason Blitman: 45:35

Fair. Totally fair, right? Yes. Asterisk or vanilla?

Daria Lavelle: 45:40

Oh, that's not fair. Swirl. Swirl.

Jason Blitman: 45:42

do. I love a swirl.

Daria Lavelle: 45:44

A soft serve is a beautiful thing. A beautiful thing with sprinkles

Jason Blitman: 45:49

ice cream in a cap cone.

Daria Lavelle: 45:51

a cone.

Jason Blitman: 45:52

Interesting. Okay. I

Daria Lavelle: 45:53

CA sugar cone with sprinkles and like maybe a cherry,

Jason Blitman: 45:57

Very traditional. Look at you. Cookies. Soft or crunchy?

Daria Lavelle: 46:02

oh I'm gonna get pushback for this, but I like a crunchy cookie.

Jason Blitman: 46:06

Fair. Totally fair. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Fries or onion rings.

Daria Lavelle: 46:10

Also, yes, I love an onion ring.

Jason Blitman: 46:13

Okay. Let's get specific. What kind of fry?

Daria Lavelle: 46:16

I think a sweet potato fry If I have to really choose like a traditional potato, then I'll do, I'll do a truffle fry with like, with some cheese, which is like, so blasphemous. So I, I grew up eating this dish my mom makes, which is just like potatoes cut up into like little triangles and fried in a pan and a lot of butter. And sometimes with like sauteed mushrooms and maybe I had too much of it as a kid because I've never been, like, regular french fries are not my obsession.

Jason Blitman: 46:45

I That makes total sense. I would be the a hundred percent same way. Okay. Finally, and this one is very important to me.

Daria Lavelle: 46:52

Ooh, okay.

Jason Blitman: 46:53

Creamy or crunchy?

Daria Lavelle: 46:55

Okay. It's been a long evolution.

Jason Blitman: 46:58

Oh my God, I I wanna hear everything.

Daria Lavelle: 47:00

I was a crunchy girl like my whole life. Okay. So actually, first of all, we have to go back, way back. So, we never had peanut butter as a kid growing up. Never. Never. And I wanted it so desperately, so my family immigrated when I was little. We came here when I was two. And all the kids in the cafeteria would be eating peanut butter and jelly because this was before, you couldn't have peanut butter in schools anymore. But everyone having peanut butter and jelly, and I would be there with some thing in the Tupperware that nobody could pronounce and just feel other and different. Even though it was food that was comfortable and made me feel like home, it wasn't what everyone else was eating. And I was so desperate to be like American enough and to fit in. I begged for peanut butter and my mom was convinced that peanut butter was like super bad for you, full of sugar, like full of fat. Just never. Like as much as I asked, we never had it. And so left to my own devices. When I got older, I would just buy the whole jar and eat it with a spoon. And so I was very much a crunchy girl. Loved having the grit and the bits of peanuts could not fathom for the life of me. People who had smooth peanut butter. I was like, but why? What even resembles a peanut in this? I don't know. So now I have children.

Jason Blitman: 48:14

oh. Mm-hmm.

Daria Lavelle: 48:16

Now I have kids and they like smooth. And I will say that I have come around because spreading smooth peanut butter on something like an apple or a piece of celery is very like it's very decadent feeling. It's nice.

Jason Blitman: 48:30

Totally fair. Do you keep both in the house?

Daria Lavelle: 48:32

No. I just keep the stuff for my kids now I've let go of my crunchy obsession.

Jason Blitman: 48:37

Okay. Okay.

Daria Lavelle: 48:39

What about you?

Jason Blitman: 48:40

when I had Kathryn Neuman on we have a very long conversation about this, but I have always been a crunchy person. I've continued to be a crunchy person. found out at this point, like a year and a half ago, that my husband prefers creamy.

Daria Lavelle: 48:55

Ah,

Jason Blitman: 48:56

was

Daria Lavelle: 48:57

that's real love. Okay. That right there is real love.

Jason Blitman: 49:00

said. That's exactly what she said. I was like, this has been, we, at that point, we'd been together for 10 years. and I didn't even know. So now we often have both crunchy and creamy, and every once in a while I'll use the creamy when I'm, feeling a little.

Daria Lavelle: 49:14

I love that. I also feel like there should be a blend. There should be a less crunchy, just sprinkled here and there throughout. Maybe

Jason Blitman: 49:22

You can buy just chopped peanuts and

Daria Lavelle: 49:25

that's right in sprinkled, but it's different'cause they're not enro in, they haven't been sitting.

Jason Blitman: 49:30

been softened Oils and okay. Okay. We should write to someone Aftertaste. Congratulations.

Daria Lavelle: 49:38

you

Jason Blitman: 49:39

Everyone go by aftertaste. By Daria Lavelle. I could talk to you about food all day long.

Daria Lavelle: 49:43

Same.

Jason Blitman: 49:44

I love

Daria Lavelle: 49:44

This is so much fun.

Jason Blitman: 49:45

So much fun. Thank you for being here and

Daria Lavelle: 49:47

Thank you for having me. This was a delight.

Harper!: 49:50

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 49:53

is That's not a Mr. Bake hat. That's just a big cat.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 49:56

Yes. Yes. to be honest with you, so I do, I am, Mr. Bake is the more of the formal, but when I got the name, it was by my friend and we all the same age. And I was we was the guy, young twenties,

Jason Blitman: 50:10

he wouldn't call you Mr.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 50:12

Exactly. The girls was like, we're not calling you Mr. So they made it, they made it more street, more urban. So they said, we're gonna call you bake. And it clicked. So everybody he introduced me to was like, oh, this is my friend bake. This is my friend bake. So then the people, it took people. Like two to three years, they'd be like, okay, I'm sorry, what's your real name? And I'm like, and I'm like, it's Kareem. But you can still say Mr. Bake. It's, you can still say bake. It's cool. Yes,

Jason Blitman: 50:41

so in your twenties you were bake in your thirties, you're Mr. Bake. In your forties you're gonna be Daddy Bake.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 50:48

yes. I like you already. Yeah. I.

Jason Blitman: 50:52

Daddy Bake era?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 50:53

I am excited because you already know at 40 they already coined the girl, the gays as being too old anyways, so it might as well go ahead and be daddy at that point because they're gonna make uncle, uncle Remy and all of that. Or what's up unc and all you like, I'm not that old. Stop it

Jason Blitman: 51:11

Uncle Bake.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:12

uncle Freaking bake.

Jason Blitman: 51:15

Oh my God. I, my birthday was last week and I.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:19

belated.

Jason Blitman: 51:19

Thank you. I'll send you my address so you can send me a cake. That's the only reason why I wanted to talk to you.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:25

Damn. You using me already for my cakes? You ain't even get just like the girls. Just like

Jason Blitman: 51:31

my

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:31

the girls.

Jason Blitman: 51:32

baked for me, so I have nothing

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:33

Okay. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 51:36

Queenman, AKA Mr. Bake.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:38

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 51:39

to Gay's Reading.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 51:40

Yes. Thanks for having me.

Jason Blitman: 51:43

I'm obsessed with how this came to be. You like, liked or commented on the episode with the Fab RK Russell. And I was like, who's this human? And I saw a clip of you and I was like, he needs to be a guest on Kay's reading. And I wrote to you and you were like, I don't have a book,

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 52:02

I was like, I don't have a, don't think this is the wrong person.

Jason Blitman: 52:07

And I was like, no, it's not only for authors, also for readers. And your response was, oh, I love reading.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 52:14

Yes. Correct. Correct.

Jason Blitman: 52:16

Kareem, what are you reading Mr. Bake? What's on your, what's on your to read list right now? What's

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 52:21

Yes. Yes. So actually I have, a stack of books I'm reading right now.

Jason Blitman: 52:26

yes.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 52:28

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 52:29

of people who come to me with a stack of books, I'm like, it gives me chills.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 52:33

I am reading three books off and on. Yes. But I focus on. At least one book as being like the primal book that I'm reading, so that I know that I need to finish that book. The other book is usually more in the self-help range'cause that I can pick up, put back down, pick up, and put back down. So.

Jason Blitman: 52:53

Like need the continuity of the story.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 52:56

Exactly. Exactly. All right. And then the, and then I have three books is because I'm actually about to moderate a conversation with a friend of mine who just published his first cooking storybook. So I'm reading his book so that I get, get my questions and get ready to dive deep.

Jason Blitman: 53:18

the line. Oh my God, I'm so

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 53:19

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 53:19

for you.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 53:21

I'm excited for myself.

Jason Blitman: 53:22

Have you ever done that before?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 53:24

So I've moderated panel discussions before just about like small businesses, about, the business of being queer, anything like that in that realm, but never it.

Jason Blitman: 53:35

being queer.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 53:36

Girl who you tillage

Jason Blitman: 53:39

I'm still waiting for my paycheck,

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 53:41

why? And then don't get, that's don't. Please do not, we live in America. Please do not carry me down that.

Jason Blitman: 53:49

lost in the mail. B, the taxes have been taken out and so it's$0.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 53:55

Alright, so that book is called we The Pizza by Ham. And it's basically he is a business owner in Philadelphia which he has a pizza shop, and his pizza shop is catered towards creating a space for incarcerated people, especially within the Pennsylvania jail Pennsylvania incarcerated system. So he, yep. All of the employees that work for the company has gone through the system in some form if they've been locked up or been on house arrest or any of that nature. So it creates a safe space for them and also while diminishing their return rate back into the prison system. Um, Yes. Yes. And that's why I want to talk to him even more about just.

Jason Blitman: 54:43

already.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 54:45

So we have this fabulous, beautiful book with all these amazing colors of just people enjoying the pizza or the wings at the shop, outside of the shop. And then as well as the story of how it got started, how he picked his sous chef. He talks about how he was on house arrest during the process of building out and the opening of the pizza shop. And then how he found his original sous chef, but that didn't work out. And then that sous chef introduced him to someone else who then became the executive and the main chef who developed most of the pizzas, sauces in combinations that they now currently have at the shop.

Jason Blitman: 55:28

That's so cool. So it's stories, is it also recipes?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 55:31

Correct. It's stories and recipes. So you get Yeah. Exactly. It's a book for everyone. And then not only does he do this, and as I'm reading through, he also gives you little citations and quotes about the incarcerated system in America at the bottom of almost each page. So he takes this like 19, 1705. Virginia slavery codes was acted, and he talks about all of that so you understand how the criminal system has been developed over years in the American, in the United States. Excuse me. So it's a history book on the American. Incarceration system. It is a history book on him and his business owners and executive chefs or how they got started and their run-ins into the incarceration system. And then it's a recipe for anyone who's interested in diving into breads and pizza making.

Jason Blitman: 56:37

I, the moment we get off this call, I am ordering it for myself. This is awesome. Oh my God. See, this

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 56:44

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 56:44

why I do this. I don't always know what people are gonna bring to the table, so this is so good to know about.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 56:49

Yes, absolutely. Yes. So then my everyday book is isaac Song by Daniel Black. So it's the second edition to his first book. And I read the first book while I was in a book club. I was a part of a book club. A queer book club at that, yes. A queer book club for about three years in the DC area. And we read his. First book. And then I realized when he had his second book come out, I said, absolutely. So now I'm reading this book. Oh my God. And this book is so beautiful. You know about the first book, you talked about his first book. And his first book was basically the father's perspective of, how he was raised in the rural south, one generation out of slavery and then moving, moving a little bit moving still in the south, but just moving and created his own family. Started, excuse me, started his own family and then his child. Wound up being queer and the him navigating, that, having this different son air quotes as well as n navigating what it means to be a father and provide for his family. And then now, oh my God, we get the perspective of his son. And it's, I tell you, this is. Daniel Black is an amazing writer. From going from that first read and now getting the fa and getting the young man's perspective and then knowing the perspective of the father. So I'm reading it like, dad, say something.'cause I know, I know what you're thinking already because, Daniel already exposed us to the father's internal thoughts and now we are on the journey of the young man. Who is finding self love? You know what I mean? Learning to love all of himself, but also learning to see his father or both his parents, honestly, in a different light. And it's been a beautiful journey through, through the help of a therapist. So it's also normalizing. Something that is so taboo in the black queer community, in black community in general, but then specifically in the black queer community where we don't go and seek therapy as a form of mental help. Most of us either navigate through life, we lean on our friends, or we go to some type of our spiritual homes or practices to seek advice for how to navigate life. So this is just such a beautiful book.

Jason Blitman: 59:22

you bake

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 59:23

exactly. Oh, no, honey. Okay, listen, honey, I'm a proud recipient of therapy, baby. So I tell everybody you need to go talk to somebody, girl, because you coming to me every day and I am. Listen, listen. I'm waking up every day trying to show up for me,

Jason Blitman: 59:43

Yeah.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 59:44

and that's a journey in itself. So

Jason Blitman: 59:48

if they're gonna pay you, then maybe.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 59:51

these girls child, these children are not paying me.

Jason Blitman: 59:55

I know,

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 59:55

I.

Jason Blitman: 59:56

they did, that's a different story.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 59:57

No shade if they did. So I was always called Mother Goose of the group of my friends. So I have that mother instinct that, come sit on my lap, let me, let's talk, have a glass of champagne or Prosecco and just ride it out. So now I'm in my life where I'm like, no honey, I'm doing way too much for not just my, small knit friends and community. I'm doing it for the world now. So it's it's a lot.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:20

Mr. Bake.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:00:21

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:25

Daddy Goose and then Daddy Bake as we have already established. Come on friends. Get it together. Oh my

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:00:35

Oh my God. And then my book, I haven't opened this book yet, but it's definitely on the nightstand, which is lighter.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:43

oh.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:00:45

Can you see it?

Jason Blitman: 1:00:47

let go of the past, connect with the present, expand the future.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:00:51

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:52

about? What do we think?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:00:54

basically it is. Is basically going to I'm hoping, because I've read several of his books before, is going to help me look at life different, a different, like just look at life differently. I'm always into self-help. I'm always into cha. How can I use the. The power of language to help n have to give to other people to help navigate their lives. So one of the things I do outside of baking and do media is I talk and work with a lot of young youth. I talk to a lot of high school students who are about to graduate high school and embark on whatever is next for them. May it be college, ent, entrepreneurship. Whatever. So I use these books to not only strengthen myself, but also have tools that when I'm speaking and presenting and mentoring the youth, I'm giving them good notes that they can take on into their journey of life. So sowing a seed basically. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:53

I, my time with you is limited, but I have so many follow up questions like, how did you get into that? That's so interesting.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:02:00

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:01

and I'm also like, brainstorming what your book could be thinking about we, the pizza, it could be like baking, but also little notes to young people about living your best life and pursuing, gotta, I'm writing your book for you.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:02:14

No. Oh no, and I appreciate that. If you are writer, please reach out to me. Shameless plug.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:21

all the listeners, if you wanna ghost write a book.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:02:25

I started writing a book, so it's interesting you say that. I started writing. And it's basically gonna be similar to what you said. I am basically lining up recipes that built Mr. Bake. I started baking since I was I started baking at a young age of 10 years old through interest of just Sweetss. And then in middle school was solidified that this is. The industry that I wanted to tackle and go into, so I'm giving all the starter recipes I want to talk about, when I didn't believe in myself, and you know how I then showed up with this particular recipe and then won over all competitions that I have entered in, as well as

Jason Blitman: 1:03:04

sweet potato cake?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:03:05

it's the banana pudding that start made off.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:08

banana pudding. The banana pudding that you made with Kelly Clarkson.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:03:12

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:13

I consume your content.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:03:15

yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:15

Come on. I prepare for my interviews. Your banana pudding is what started it all.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:03:21

Yes. Yes. So that won be my first ever competition. So talking about that, talking about the story of how I made that recipe in my room in the dark.'cause my mother, if you know anything about certain households, my, especially in black households, when the kitchen is cleaned in, the dishes, in the food is done and the dishes is done and the floors mopped, the kitchen is closed. Baby. And my mother was like, I don't care what you want to do, you're not doing it in there. So I took everything, the hand mixer, the bowls, the bananas, everything, the cutting board and only with the TV light. I made this banana pudding. Took it to school the next day and wound up winning over 30 other desserts that were in, that were entered into the competition.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:05

Oh, that's amazing. And I heard on, I wanna say another podcast, that you weren't allowed to have an easy bake oven as a kid

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:04:13

no, I was not

Jason Blitman: 1:04:15

but do you think that actually helped you because you

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:04:19

not having one.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:21

I.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:04:22

It, no, because I, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:25

You like went from the Easy Bake oven to the like hard bake oven. You like,

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:04:30

Yeah, I guess you could say it. Yeah, it did help. It helped in a way of, it forced me to work with the real oven,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:35

skipped the easy part and went right to No. All right. If I can't do it the easy way, I'm gonna do it the real way.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:04:42

listen, nobody was gonna stop my joy and stop this interest in baking for me. So it'll be stories like that, being telling people to. Even if your parents or people you love don't believe or understand what you're doing, you have to still keep pressing on. When you have a burning desire inside of you still keep pressing on,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:01

that.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:05:02

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:03

In another conversation, said that you like your food to taste like you at your best.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:05:10

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:11

to you?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:05:12

That basically means that we are not only. Chefs and artists, we are also storytellers. You tell stories through the food in which you make, especially if you go to school and get trained. You typically get immersed in French technique and French style of cooking that you lose. What you grew up eating, and that's a representation really of who you are when you're saying, when I'm telling you I'm my banana pudding recipe, and I sent and I made, was able to make it for Kelly Clarkson. I'm sharing the story of my aunt sharing that recipe with me and then me sharing that recipe with all the high school entries that I competed in that competition. You know what I mean? And then to take that and now. Spread that joy along the world, so I'm telling the story of my food through that.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:04

You're not just, we're not just tasting your training.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:06:07

Exactly. You're also tasting and hearing and feeling the food. You know what I mean?

Jason Blitman: 1:06:13

see the young person, with the blue light glowing from the TV in his room. Yeah. Oh, how special. I

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:06:21

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:21

where can the people find you?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:06:24

Yes, you can find me on Instagram Mr Bake sweets. So that's M-R-B-A-K-E-S-W-E-E-T-S as well. Okay. You gotta give'em all of that. That S okay. And the website is the same, mr bake sweets.com. My ex is the same, Mr. Bake. Sweet. And my TikTok is the only one. TikTok is the only one. A little different. It's Chef Kareem, Mr. Bake. Queenman.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:54

Yeah. Oh, nice and long. Gotta keep it long for the TikTok.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:06:58

Stop it.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:59

Okay. A question that I've been asking everyone that I think that is like new and different and important because in a world where we want to amplify the people that are near and dear to us and who make us who we are, when you die, who would you turn to to delete your search history on your computer?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:07:20

That is the most fun and random question. Who thinks of that? Oh, I a hundred percent would give it to my best friend who I've known and family now since 1994. Dr. Shaniqua Johnson, she knows all the tales.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:40

And

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:07:41

she And she know. Yeah. And she do. Yes. She, yes, she knows. Let me go ahead.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:46

Is she a doctor like your, like your daddy?

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:07:52

She,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:53

She's actually, she has a degree.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:07:54

she has a degree. She a.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:56

Okay. Woo. She just likes diagnosing people.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:00

Oh my God. So I would ha she would definitely be the one, she already has a lot of access now, so she would definitely be the one.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:08

Oh my God. Yes.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:10

all the te and she knows all the dark alley tales, honey of the back young. She know all the young baked tales

Jason Blitman: 1:08:17

Yeah, baby. Big.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:18

that baby bake baby.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:21

Oh my God. Kareem, Mr. Big em Thank you

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:25

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:26

here.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:27

No, thanks for having me. I appreciate this moment. Yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:32

Everyone go check him out on all the places you'll be able to say you knew him when, because the greatest of great things are in the future. I'm so excited for you

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:41

yes,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:41

a wonderful rest of your day.

Kareem "Mr. Bake" Queeman: 1:08:42

you do the same. Thank you so much.

1:08:45

Thanks Daria. Thank you Kareem. Everyone go check out Aftertaste by Daria. Lavell available now wherever you get your books. Have a great rest of your week. Thanks everyone. Bye bye.