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Hello and welcome to GA's Reading. I'm your host, Blitman, and today's episode of Spill the Tea, we are spilling the tea on the art of conversations with Alison Wood Brooks, who is a behavioral scientist and professor at Harvard Business School, recently wrote a book called Talk. Because this is an episode about conversations I wanted to edit as little as possible. So you had the most, uh, transparent experience, I guess you would say, uh, on the art of this conversation. And I dive in, in the middle of the beginning of my conversation with Allison. Usually I would've started the episode later, but I wanted to give you a little bit of context for, how we get into the rest of the conversation. So what happened is I was in an interview with an author that was going over and then immediately needed to jump right into conversation with Allison, which is why I was a little frazzled at the beginning. But that is all a part of this. As always, if you like what you're hearing, follow us on social media. Like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We are at Gaze Reading on Instagram. We are on Blue Sky, we're on YouTube, and we are on Substack. And I'm so excited because as we get into June, which is Pride Month, there are gonna be a ton of, there's gonna be a ton of stuff that gets released. On the Substack, so make sure to check that out. There is so much content that is free. And then there's some extra special bonus content for just a few dollars a month. Get some behind the scenes, fun stuff, including my top picks for. The most recent and some upcoming queer lgbtqia a plus books in celebration of pride. Speaking of Pride, I also just released some new Gays reading merchandise. The link to the Printful page is both in the Link tree on Instagram, but also here in the show notes. There's some really cute t-shirts and sweatshirts and mugs and all sorts of things, and I hope you go and check that out. Alright, all of that said, please enjoy this episode of Spill the Tea on Conversations with Allison Wood Brooks.

Jason Blitman: 2:14

I know. Well, anyway, so it was just so funny. I was like, oh, and

Alison Wood Brooks: 2:18

Did you recommend my book? Were you like also love talking to you? I have an idea.

Jason Blitman: 2:22

I honestly like took me, so I had, I was like, he's one of my favorite authors. He's a huge

Alison Wood Brooks: 2:28

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 2:29

I couldn't believe I got him in the first place. I couldn't believe I got him for an hour, and then I was like.

Alison Wood Brooks: 2:35

And you got him to open up and you got him to fall in love. You're amazed. This is, was that, did that happen today?

Jason Blitman: 2:44

Allison. That's why I'm frantic right now.

Alison Wood Brooks: 2:46

Oh my God. Can we just have like a moment, a let's do this together. A zen moment of peace to say a little prayer to the whatever Gods we wanna pray to. Because you did it. You did. Like that is such an achievement in all the ways

Jason Blitman: 3:01

I, I literally gave myself a 30 minute buffer between him and you, and I was like, I, she's gonna beat me to the video because I have to go fill up my water

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:11

you are. Like, I need to pat down the sweat from my

Jason Blitman: 3:14

literally, oh my, I

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:18

congratulations.

Jason Blitman: 3:20

start my conversation with you.

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:22

Listen, we could just celebrate the, that experience for like an hour. I'm serious. That sounds so fun. I want like, I want the full postmortem. That's what our interview could be. It's like the after action review. We analyze your conversation with this other author.

Jason Blitman: 3:37

Well, it's funny that you say that. Um, first of all, hi, I am Jason. It's so nice to

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:41

Hi Jason. I'm such a fan. Thank you for inviting me.

Jason Blitman: 3:44

up. What are you talking about?

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:47

You know what? You know why I'm a fan?'cause you're a great freaking conversationalist and it's fun to listen to. And congratulations. You're awesome.

Jason Blitman: 3:55

you. I appreciate that. Well, I heard you on Armchair Expert and I became such a fan and I was like, I gotta have on Kay's reading.

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:03

Oh, thank you.

Jason Blitman: 4:04

we are mutually here for each other. Um, in fact, it was, inspired a new series that I'm doing

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:14

Tell me everything.

Jason Blitman: 4:16

my husband and my therapist are mad at me if I just like have more interviews, quote unquote unnecessarily.

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:23

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 4:24

I started a new series called Spill the Tea,

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:28

love it.

Jason Blitman: 4:28

today we are spilling the tea on conversations.

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:31

I love it. How is Spill the Tea different than other things?

Jason Blitman: 4:36

this, this is, this conversation is not quote unquote about the book

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:40

Amazing. It's my favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:43

about the book. Um, so like my last one that just released like a week ago was with Elder Ator, who is the VP and publisher of Penguin Classics.

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:54

Wow. Cool,

Jason Blitman: 4:55

about what makes a classic, a classic.

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:57

cool.

Jason Blitman: 4:58

So like that was, we were spilling the tea on Penguin classics. Anyway,

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:01

it. I love it.

Jason Blitman: 5:03

Allison Wood Brooks, I am very overwhelmed. You are, you are a professor at HBS.

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:14

Fancy.

Jason Blitman: 5:15

way the kids say it,

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:17

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 5:19

it's like I go to school in Cambridge. Okay, yeah. We know

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:22

Do they call it dropping the hbo? It's like, am are you gonna drop the HBO or not? Ooh.

Jason Blitman: 5:27

to anyone who's not using the context blues. It's Harvard.

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:32

Harvard.

Jason Blitman: 5:33

teaches at Harvard.

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:34

I know, I know.

Jason Blitman: 5:36

a smr.

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:37

I know. If I went back to my like high school self and like you told me, I would end up not only like going to Harvard but teaching, being a professor at Harvard, I would've been like, no. Why? What? Huh? It's crazy.

Jason Blitman: 5:55

What am I gonna teach?

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:56

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:57

would be my first question, I

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:58

What crazy. What collection of crazy people made the that decision to hire me?

Jason Blitman: 6:04

Um, well, Allison, you wrote a book and teach, uh, the book is called Talk, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. and the class is called Talk. Something about Talking Gooder,

Alison Wood Brooks: 6:21

the students, I'll call it talk now. It's just like the acronym has prevailed, but when I first started teaching it, it was called and, and still, I guess officially in the course catalog. It's called How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life

Jason Blitman: 6:32

And life. Yes.

Alison Wood Brooks: 6:35

Emphasis On Life.

Jason Blitman: 6:37

right. It's none of my business. It's just life. have such an important question to ask you.

Alison Wood Brooks: 6:43

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 6:44

Do we have any updates on scientists research on whether or not tickle me, Elmo has feelings?

Alison Wood Brooks: 6:55

Did that part make you laugh?

Jason Blitman: 6:58

It did.

Alison Wood Brooks: 6:59

Isn't it so funny? I, I feel like this is a question that is unknowable. Right?

Jason Blitman: 7:07

that's depressing?

Alison Wood Brooks: 7:09

There are so many questions. he must. he must. By having my own children, I do feel like I learned so much about Elmo that he's supposed to be a particular age. Did you know that almost must to be like three years old and he has got, he's like got a quite a, like a backstory. Um,

Jason Blitman: 7:27

that's the, then they like tailor the development and the behaviors to, it's his audience

Alison Wood Brooks: 7:35

yes. I do think tickle me Elmo is a genius invention. The fact that you could sort of take the power that by the way we are all susceptible when we're listening to a laugh track on a sip sitcom and translate it for children is just incredible. But it also, it just speaks to this like crazy power of laugh. The contagious power of laughter. Right? It's just so nice to be around.

Jason Blitman: 7:58

it's true. I, except when, when it's not

Alison Wood Brooks: 8:04

Except when it's, yeah, except when it's not. Except when it's at your, uh uh, you know, like on you targeted at you. Yeah. Like you're the one being excluded or punched down to, or you don't understand what people are laughing about. Yeah. No.

Jason Blitman: 8:24

So people who are listening are like, what are we doing? Why are you talking about Elmo? This is spill the tea on the art of conversations. What are you talking about? I, know, I'm, maybe I was not a very good student in high school, or frankly in college. I have a degree in theater. What does that even mean? so I think I'm making up for lost time and I'm like, I wanna be a good student. And when I talk to a Harvard professor, I need to like,

Alison Wood Brooks: 8:56

Do you feel like you need to impress me or get my approval or like engage in a meaningful way? Like what is the pressure that you feel?

Jason Blitman: 9:43

this is a good question. Obviously you are, you ask questions for a living, but I think, I think it's about. proving that I did the work,

Alison Wood Brooks: 9:55

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 9:55

that I'm paying attention,

Alison Wood Brooks: 9:57

yes,

Jason Blitman: 9:57

um, because this is, it all comes back to Elmo

Alison Wood Brooks: 10:03

always does.

Jason Blitman: 10:03

you'll, you'll understand the art of conversation and Allison's, uh, methodology momentarily. Um, but my goal with asking the question, do we have any updates on scientists, research on whether or not tickle me Elmo has feelings to use all of the talk maxims in one question.

Alison Wood Brooks: 10:24

Oh my God. Oh, I'm so, I'm so moved. And I You did it. You did. And you did. Not only did you use all the talk maxims, you used multiple bits from each of the maxims. I think. Um, do you want me to do an analysis of that question and tell you how I see

Jason Blitman: 10:44

want you to gimme an a.

Alison Wood Brooks: 10:47

a plus plus. Plus plus?

Jason Blitman: 10:49

Oh my God. Harvard professor, a plus plus plus at Harvard gonna call my mom.

Alison Wood Brooks: 10:54

Congratulations.

Jason Blitman: 10:56

Um, so can we talk about that? Can we unpack what that means?

Alison Wood Brooks: 11:00

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:00

um, tell me. You, you can ana analysis, analyze as much as you want.

Alison Wood Brooks: 11:07

Well, you know what's interesting about this question in particular, I love that you tried to like pack all of the maxims into one thing. And it's no surprise that to listeners it would feel confusing because I think when you use the maxims well topics asking levity kindness, it almost necessitates that you are, um, listening so intently to another person, not only in the moment while you're talking to them, but over the long term, across your whole relationship that when you get to a good place in the conversation, it almost should be hard for outsiders to understand what you're talking about because you have such a tight-knit shared reality and you've found your way to a place that is so unique that maybe only the two of you could understand or talk about in a spec specific way. That to explain what it is to outsiders, eavesdropping in takes a good bit of work to give them context.

Jason Blitman: 12:11

was designed to be a good question for you and

Alison Wood Brooks: 12:15

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 12:15

conversation. It was

Alison Wood Brooks: 12:16

and maybe any, maybe someone else who's read the book right? Or may I actually.

Jason Blitman: 12:21

Con, who has context.

Alison Wood Brooks: 12:23

Who has context. Actually, I've never talked about that example in my class. So like even the students who have taken talk at Harvard wouldn't really know what we are talking about. And everybody's gonna start like searching for clues of like, what's going on here? Um, okay, more analysis of, of this, uh, the topic that you chose is in pursuit of your goal to show me that you've really prepared. So not only did you read the book, but this is like a very specific, not huge part of the takeaways from the book. It was sort of mentioned casually in passing in one sentence in, in the middle of the book, right? So this is all in pursuit of your goal to signal to me like, look, professor I like really did. I didn't just. Skim. I like really did the work. Um, so that's, that's amazing. That's what you should be doing. You should be choosing topics that are very squarely in pursuit of your goals. Um, even better, they should be squarely in pursuit of your partner's goals and which you, I think of intuited, like, she's gonna love this. She, she spent 15 fricking years writing this book so that someday hopefully someone would be able to make this weird joke about this thing buried in the middle of the book. Like, that's the nicest compliment, best affirmation that anyone could give. So. You So it nails the topics in pursuit of specific goals. Um, it is a question until you were asking a question. So already you've got the a for asking it is pulled from the levity chapter. It's about laughter in this context of tickle me Elmo. It's also so, um, unexpected and so sort of off the wall that it, that's another form of levity is like the element of surprise, right? And like switching it up like out of nowhere tickle me Elmo. Um, so it's just perfect levity, uh, and then kindness. It's perfect example of long-term listening that we talk about with, with kindness, right? You went to the trouble of, you watched me on another podcast. You thought about what we were talking about. You felt in inspired enough. To invite me on your podcast, read my book. You not, didn't just skim it. You read the book. You thought about the ideas in the book, and then you were thoughtful enough to prepare this topic, bring it to our conversation and say, look, I'm not just listening to you now. I've been listening to you and your ideas now for at least a month and maybe more. And like, God, what could be more kind than that? It's amazing. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 15:03

it, uh, my pleasure. I, I, the goal was obviously, yes, all of those things, but also Initially was gonna ask you if you could teleport anywhere, where would you go?

Alison Wood Brooks: 15:16

Oh, I love that one.

Jason Blitman: 15:17

which two of the listeners is a question that Allison poses in the book as a great, uh, like topic question to ask someone when you're sort of looking for something to

Alison Wood Brooks: 15:26

Yeah. Reaching for things. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 15:28

Um, but then I was like, oh, it would be more fun to sort of start a, at a sort of high ridiculous level and then be able to unpack the art of conversation from there and sort of where that comes from. Um,

Alison Wood Brooks: 15:44

Can I make a comment real quick that it's occurring to me? I, I think it shows something sort of profound that Just one question. That is one question. So if you looked at the transcript of our conversation so far, that moment where you were like, do we have better, you know, scientific evidence about whether cake kemo is real? Um, that's one turn out of like probably already a hundred. And the fact that we could do a full talk analysis and that, like you thought so much about that one turn and I've now already thought so much about that one turn. I think really shows, um, the complexity and the sort of depth that is actually under the hood when you're having a conversation with somebody, even though it looks simple, like, oh, you say a thing, and then I say a thing and we take turns lying beneath every turn is this level of complexity and nuance. And I think that's not obvious to, to all of us.

Jason Blitman: 16:43

Yeah. Well, and to be clear, you, you're really not talking about me. I mean, you might be talking about me, but I, but we're really talking about. Everyone,

Alison Wood Brooks: 16:51

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:51

of conversation in general. There

Alison Wood Brooks: 16:53

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:54

much, to unpack, to uncover. Um, I've noticed you're taking notes. I take notes when I am in conversation with somebody.

Alison Wood Brooks: 17:04

Why do you take notes?

Jason Blitman: 17:07

um, I'm laughing because I am, I'm very conscious of your methodology and I am, I am trying to be hyper aware to when you are or not using it on me. Um,

Alison Wood Brooks: 17:25

A lot of people say, they're like, I'm nervous to talk to you. I'm like, no, I think you should be like the least nervous to talk to of all people in the world. I have like such a depth of understanding about how hard this thing is that we're doing and how, how blazingly imperfect it is and how many mistakes and weird things we're gonna do while we're talking to each other. But I do know that it makes, I know, I know the hypervigilance that comes, that comes from it.

Jason Blitman: 17:48

I mean, okay. Like literally behind, under the hood literally is, uh, I told you that I just got off a, uh, an interview with one of my favorite

Alison Wood Brooks: 17:57

I know

Jason Blitman: 17:58

believe he was on the show. Um, and yet last night, I said to my husband, I am so excited to talk to Allison. I'm more excited to talk to Allison because this, this is sort of like my bread and butter these days. Your

Alison Wood Brooks: 18:12

it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't Michael Lewis was it?

Jason Blitman: 18:15

no.

Alison Wood Brooks: 18:16

He, I mean, he's a great conversation. He's a very good friend of mine, and he, anyway, I was gonna, I was ready to GI was ready to gloat publicly, uh, that you were looking forward to my conversation more than Michael's

Jason Blitman: 18:27

I don't know who Michael is. No,

Alison Wood Brooks: 18:28

used. You do you know Michael Lewis? Like a Moneyball? The big short, um, all, you know, so many, uh, the Undoing Project. Okay. You're gonna have to,

Jason Blitman: 18:37

things I haven't seen.

Alison Wood Brooks: 18:38

okay.

Jason Blitman: 18:40

Um, I referenced Tickle Me Elmo, like I am. Moneyball is not on my radar right now. You ask why I write things, why I take notes.

Alison Wood Brooks: 18:49

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 18:50

if you say something that I'm curious to follow up about or if you say something that makes me think of something else, I'll write it down. It's not interrupt you. if it's not an appropriate time to interrupt, because as I learn from the book, interrupting is not always a bad thing. something I want to note in the show notes of the episode. So I take notes about all sorts of things.

Alison Wood Brooks: 19:10

I think it's such a benefit. It's maybe the only benefit for me of talking on Zoom is that you can take notes a little bit more slyly than you can in person. And so I, and I think you're like me, where you have the velocity with which ideas enter your mind while you're talking to someone is quick, really fast. And so you don't, and you know you don't wanna interrupt, but you also don't wanna forget if those ideas are valuable. And so just like scratching it down while you're talking to someone, keeps you from interrupting them and also helps you not remember it or, or forget it later.

Jason Blitman: 19:40

100%.

Alison Wood Brooks: 19:41

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:42

the benefit of this is that I have you on one side of my screen and I have my notes on the other side of my screen.

Alison Wood Brooks: 19:49

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 19:50

in terms of what I wanna talk to you about, and something that comes up a lot in the book is about the, the, uh, idea of preparing for a conversation

Alison Wood Brooks: 19:58

indeed.

Jason Blitman: 19:59

and as she write, as she takes a note, I, you, you say that, that the idea of prepping for a conversation is, uh, sounds silly to someone. Why is that important to you, or why do you think that's important?

Alison Wood Brooks: 20:21

It's funny, I wouldn't even use the word silly. I, I think it's aversive to people. So we've actually surveyed people. I was surprised. I think I'm a sort of habitual topic prepper. Um. I like thinking about people when we're apart. It makes me feel less anxious once you get together, that you have these sort of backup options of where, like the question of like, if you could tele, if you could teleport anywhere, where would you go? That's a, like a weird question. You wouldn't just ask it. But if things get awkward, it's nice to know that you've got like a backup plan of a thing to ask that will make things interesting again. Um, and so I was sort of surprised when I realized in the world that not everybody is doing that. Not everybody is thinking ahead about stuff that they could talk about. I think a good number are, but most people don't very much. And even more so that the people who don't almost feel like it's a bad idea, um, because they think the conver it will make the conversation feel rigid or scripted. Um, or they'll feel distracted, like, oh, I gotta get to my list of things. What we call it, what I call it in the book, is this myth of naturalness where everybody's walking through life feeling like their conversations should be, they want'em to be smooth and fun and exciting, and they see other people having conversations that seem smooth and fun and exciting. And when they watch other people, you can't tell like the feet under the water how fast they're paddling. Um, and so it looks easy and effortless. And so then we kind of feel like, well, to make my conversations easy, like smooth, it should be easy. Like it does, it shouldn't be effortful. And, and part of that is it should occur to me spontaneously, like as we're talking all of these I, the things to talk about and how to talk about them and what I'm comfortable disclosing and what I think my partner's comfortable disclosing, that's all just gonna be obvious to me in the moment. And so I understand those fears, like I get why people would feel that way. But then when you study people and you randomly assign them to either prepare topics or not, and then you study how the conversations go at very large scale, the people who have thought ahead have way better conversations. And I don't need to say this to like a podcast or that's your whole life. You, you wouldn't really dream of going into a podcast conversation having not read the book or not prepared topics unless that was the shtick, the shtick that everybody was in on. Um, so when you compare these two groups, the people who have prepared even for 30 seconds have conversations that are less anxiety ridden. They're more fluid, there's less stuttering, there's fewer awkward pauses. You end up talking about more topics and more interesting topics that are engaging to everybody involved. Um, it's just like every, and, and the most important thing is it's just more enjoyable, right? Like it's, it actually doesn't make it feel more scripted. The beauty of it is if you've prepped topics, you don't actually have to bring them up. Like you just have them in your back pocket for if there's a moment when it feels right to raise it. Um, so I understand people's fears about it, but I think we gotta blast through them and prep more topics.

Jason Blitman: 23:36

of blasting through them, we of dove in headfirst. I asked you a question. We unpacked talk maxims, but we didn't. No one has any idea who you are or why you're the person who's telling us about, uh, the art of conversations. Um,

Alison Wood Brooks: 23:52

We whispered Harvard.

Jason Blitman: 23:53

Harvard professor at Harvard. Um, so you teach this class talk, you know, the, and. Something that comes up is about the science of conversation. Um, every once in a while in the book, you'll say something about what the science says. Uh, I say in quotation marks to a professor. That's, you know, I don't, I

Alison Wood Brooks: 24:17

How dare you?

Jason Blitman: 24:18

I don't mean to, to reduce anything, but I'm, I'm literally quoting the book. It's Science says, what does the science say? What, what are some nuggets that are, uh, important for us as sort of of the world to understand about the art of conversation per science?

Alison Wood Brooks: 24:38

I can tell you, I, I, I, you know what's so funny? When I was writing this book, I'm keenly aware that like nonfiction on average is not fun to read. I cared so much. This is my first book. And so like, I cared so much about trying to make the reading experience fun and exciting and pleasurable and alluring, and also toggling over to wearing this other hat that I wear in my life, which is a behavioral scientist. And, um, not just like toggling there and being like, by the way, but also like I am a thought leader on this new emerging way of doing behavioral science that. Most people outside of my behavioral science community would not even really realize is happening. Um, and so I hope that I, my, my hope that I got that balance right in the book. Um, but it was a very fun challenge. And I think in my life, toggling between those identities is not, uh, particularly easy. I'm a very silly person, but I take my work seriously. Um, and so like wearing those different hats, uh, is a, is a fun challenge and juggle. Um, so the science of conversation, what I have found, so I think it's possible that I would've left the profession earlier had we not stumbled, stumbled on a new way of doing it. And so let me tell you why this was so exciting. Um, they, for decades and decades, people have studied what seemed like interaction and conversation by looking at like. Pretend scenarios, they would be like, imagine that these two people are talking and they talk about this. What do you think? Or they would have you focus on like one turn, right? So maybe we say like, okay, imagine this whole conversation and at the end this guy apologizes and in this other scenario he doesn't apologize. What do you think about those two scenarios? And that's, and then we are gonna make claims about like, well this is what apologies do. So this is like decades and decades of work. And I realized, oh my god, there's like whole fields of communication and uh, negotiation and social psychology. And very few people had actually gone to the trouble of recording real conversations between real people. And analyzing them. Now there's like another sort of group of people who had sort of been doing that like, like eavesdropping on real conversations in the wild. It's called conversation analysis. But they would do like one or two conversations at a time. And as a sort of behavioral scientist, I'm like, oh, we need like thousands, we need at least hundreds if not thousands of real conversations. And so that's the new science that has emerged. It's like we have tools now where we can actually record hundreds if not thousands of conversations at once. We also have new tools from this digital age, like natural language processing and machine learning where we can go into these large transcript data sets and actually analyze and figure out what's going on with a lit, with like a lot more precision and pattern recognition than we could before.

Jason Blitman: 28:22

When you say analyze and figure out what's been going on, is there, is there a sort of high level takeaway?

Alison Wood Brooks: 28:30

Yes. So I, I feel like I, there what you start to realize is exactly what we were saying earlier, which is like, you look under the hood and there's like a lot of complexity. There's a lot going on. And so how can we wrap our arms around that? How can we figure out small little tricks and life hacks that will help the most people in the most situations do a little bit better? And so that's when we, we kinda look at conversations and we say, Hey, it seems like people who are asking a lot of questions are getting more second dates. They're negotiating more effectively. They're ascending to leadership positions, people like them more. That seems to be a correlation. So like asking more questions and good things. What if we run an experiments where we tell half the people, ask more questions and then like, don't mess with the other people. That's where it gets really powerful is when you do experiments and you figure out these little hacks that are actually feasible, like you could imagine going into a conversation. And your only goal is like, ask more questions than I normally would. People can do that and when they do, their conversations go better in almost every way. And so that's, that's, those are the talk maxims. We're working through these sort of life hacks. Prepare topics, switch topics more frequently. Ask more questions, ask more follow up questions, laugh more. Um, don't be afraid to switch topics. Uh, you know, like all give more compliments. Make sure you say thank you, affirm people, validate them, their feelings before you disagree with them. It's sort of all these little rules that taken together are gonna make you so much better at conversation.

Jason Blitman: 30:14

you saying taking together, because the talk maxims, which you, you rattled through a bit at the beginning, unpacking. My first question are, it's, it's an acronym for talk, topics, ask or ask questions, uh, levity and kindness. Um, I, I appreciate that that is not an order of operations.

Alison Wood Brooks: 30:38

Correct.

Jason Blitman: 30:39

come into the conversation with any, starting with any letter that is helpful for you.

Alison Wood Brooks: 30:45

That's right. At the end of my semester, my students are like, should I just like once a week, like work on one of the maxims or like per day I'm gonna pick a thing and I'm gonna work on it that day. So there's like, um, so many different ways that you can, can workshop it, but you certainly don't need to do it in order. Um, and they are right. Yeah, exactly. And they're all mutually reinforcing, right. If you're aiming to be a better listener, you're, you're probably a good way to do it is by asking more follow up questions or aiming to ask more follow up questions to, um, if you're gonna, if you bring a spirit of play, it means you're gonna talk about more fun and exciting topics. Uh, right. So they're all sort of Exactly. And so that they're all interdependent. They're all like reinforcing each other.

Jason Blitman: 31:32

right. So I am, I talk to a lot of authors. My goal is always to talk to them about things that they haven't talked about yet

Alison Wood Brooks: 31:42

I love it.

Jason Blitman: 31:43

because I could tell when it's rote,

Alison Wood Brooks: 31:48

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 31:48

tell when it's rehearsed. I can tell like there are, there are have been nuggets of our conversation that. Simply because of the nature of your work, it is how you describe things,

Alison Wood Brooks: 32:03

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:04

right? And

Alison Wood Brooks: 32:05

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 32:06

that has become a part of you.

Alison Wood Brooks: 32:07

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 32:08

curious if you have come across ways as a, for a talker, whether, regardless of which side you're on, to keep things fresh.

Alison Wood Brooks: 32:18

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 32:20

If I ask the same question every single time, that's not fresh for me. If you answer the same way every single time, that's not fresh for you. How do you come to it?

Alison Wood Brooks: 32:28

there's so many. I work with a lot of improv, um, people. Actually, I have these amazing improv guys come to my class. Their name Anthony Vile and Sammy Wit, um, they work, they have a company called Freestyle Love Supreme, and it's, uh, well the Broadway show was called Freestyle Love, love, uh, Supreme, that they wrote originally with Lin-Manuel Miranda. It's like the most amazing thing I've seen human beings do. Um, they come to my class and run my students through a bunch of freestyle rap like improv exercises. They make them beatbox, they make them, it, it's just so, it's really, really fun. Um, and it's, I think improv is, and then my friend Kelly Leonard, who runs Second City in Chicago, like. There. So much of that work at improv, uh, is so aligned with the spirit of talk, uh, right, and it's this question, it's sort of like, well, there are things you can do before the conversation starts, like prep and thinking ahead and thinking about people. But once you're in it, how do you make it optimally fresh? How do you unearth the most interesting things that are in another person's mind? Or not just interesting, but like productive and efficient and valuable and exciting. Um, and I think for me, the thing that's most helpful is just the, is the value of listening, right? Like you could imagine working your way through a totally planned, scripted set of questions, but you can't just do that. You actually need to listen to their answers. And as soon as they start, get, start to get going on that like scripted bit that they're doing about their book, you maybe interrupt them and be like, wait a second, pause. You said this thing, I've never, like, I have so much curiosity. Let's go in that direction, right? We're co-creating this thing and as soon as you stumble on a new piece of treasure that you're like, I don't, not sure that anyone else is unearthed this yet. You can go there. Follow up questions are an incredible improvisational tool and you can't possibly plan'em, right? They're based on what your partner's saying.

Jason Blitman: 34:24

Well, and it's interesting too because if, if my goal in this conversation is to unpack the art of conversations, you've, that's what you do. So it is it. I, don't wanna say I have it more difficult. I, we both have it difficult to make, to keep it fresh for both of

Alison Wood Brooks: 34:43

Yes, but you probably don't get a lot of authors who ask you questions back because it breaks the norm of like what the expectation is. My hypothesis is that it's probably satisfying for listeners to have a guest who does. That certainly is more satisfying for you. Um, but if I were to do that too much, if I started a spin, flip it on its head and like only ask you questions, you would start to panic.'cause you're like, oh my God, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do here. And the listeners would probably get a little annoyed with me too. Like, she's not doing the thing. And, and also I wouldn't be sharing my expertise. Right. Like, that's why you're here. That's why we're all here.

Jason Blitman: 35:23

Well, it's funny that you say not sharing your expertise because I love learning about people and I have kept needing to remind myself. This episode is supposed to be quote unquote educational. We're supposed to learn something about a topic, less so about you, but I am itching and itching, and itching to hear you talk about basketball, um, or to tell you that I was dancing around my house listening to, uh, your band on Spotify this

Alison Wood Brooks: 35:56

Let's go, let's go. You know what's so funny? You know what's so funny? I feel the same way in all, in all of these interviews about the book. I'm like, well, we could talk about the book, or we could just do conversation. And that would not involve me talking about the book at all. We would talk about basketball, we would talk about twins. We'd talk about your theater degree. We would talk about my band and like, in a way, I, I, I sometimes think that's actually a better way of like teaching or understanding the content of my book Talk. Okay. Hit me with all of your basketball questions. I have so many. I have so many thoughts and ex and expertise.

Jason Blitman: 36:34

You were not always a basketball. You, like

Alison Wood Brooks: 36:37

Oh no. I was always a basketball player.

Jason Blitman: 36:39

from basketball to something else. What am I? What am I?

Alison Wood Brooks: 36:42

I'm a basketball player through and through. I started in like fourth grade and went through high school, thought about playing in college. Had this amazing high school career with this lovely team. We went to states every year and it's such a part of my identity. I played with my twin sister. Like, you don't wanna get caught in a wood girl trap. Okay. That is a nightmare with very long arms. Um, love it so much. And now my, just through like the serendipity of the universe, my work at Harvard and all on all this stuff of conversation has brought me into working with professional sports teams a bit. So I've worked a bit with the Celtics and it feels so like, such a good fit because I have this like deep passion for basketball, so like in a shared language and a shared understanding. So, you know, I'm doing a little bit of consulting there. And then on my spare time I'm coaching my kids' youth teams. Like, it's just, it's the best,

Jason Blitman: 37:35

It was from, from

Alison Wood Brooks: 37:36

the

Jason Blitman: 37:37

to being the coach.

Alison Wood Brooks: 37:38

coach.

Jason Blitman: 37:39

I knew there was some sort of transition there and I'm

Alison Wood Brooks: 37:41

Can I tell you? I think a lot of adults feel this way, like ex-athletes feel this way. But like I, every time I'm coaching or watching my kids play, I'm like, put me in. I am re I am not washed up. I'm ready for game time. Get me in there.

Jason Blitman: 37:56

You, you, you almost went to, you almost played in college, but

Alison Wood Brooks: 38:01

I almost, there's too, life is big. Life is big. I had other things to do. I was also a, a musician. I was a serious student. I also really like having fun. Like I really, really like having fun.

Jason Blitman: 38:13

like my worst nightmare. You're good at all the things.

Alison Wood Brooks: 38:16

Not good at it. Just No.

Jason Blitman: 38:19

go for all the things.

Alison Wood Brooks: 38:20

go for, I for sure go for all the things and I, I know that that is um, can be a lot.

Jason Blitman: 38:29

I, my mantra is leap and the net will come. Uh, I need to keep reminding myself of that because you, if you don't go for things, then you then

Alison Wood Brooks: 38:41

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 38:42

you'll get them.

Alison Wood Brooks: 38:43

but then the, but the downside, I'm with you. I'm, I'm in the same boat. But then the downside of it, the, the downside of it is that, um, if you want too much and you're trying to do too much, it does, I think over time can lead to sort of, um, burnout for sure. But also, um, on one hand it's like a well-rounded identity and on the other it's sort of like, who am I? Like,

Jason Blitman: 39:11

to you?

Alison Wood Brooks: 39:12

yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Like, uh,

Jason Blitman: 39:14

mean, well, you do all these things. You

Alison Wood Brooks: 39:16

yeah. So let me tell. So yeah. And I think that key to life is probably having a rich and diverse portfolio of like activities and people, and there's research on this, right? Like this is called psychological richness. It's, um. It's, you can have a happy and meaningful life, but you also need like diverse new experiences to keep things exciting. And so if you're doing a lot of different things, if you play on a basketball team and you play in a band and you also have three kids and you do research and you write a book, like you do all the things, you're gonna have a lot of psychological richness in your life, but you're also gonna be like very tired and, and I think feel pulled, right? Like the band is the thing that brings me the most like consistent joy and it's such an amazing creative outlet and we write music and it's just, you get lost in it immediately. You know, we go, we have a band barn and we all go there. We try once a week, usually more like once every two weeks. And as soon as we get there, you're just sort of lost in this beautiful haze of music and creation and with people you really love and care about and are so talented. Um, and I want that, right? Like, I crave that in the moments when like, my job is hard or like the kids are hard or, um, I don't know. So it's constantly thinking about how do I balance my portfolio in the optimal way, I think. Do you feel that way?

Jason Blitman: 40:46

I, the thing that hits me the most is not feeling great at one thing.

Alison Wood Brooks: 40:58

Yes. Yes. And the opportunity cost of knowing that you could be

Jason Blitman: 41:03

Right?

Alison Wood Brooks: 41:04

I, I, yep. Yep,

Jason Blitman: 41:07

podcasting is essentially a glorified hobby. If I, if I took away all the other things that I was doing and that I was focusing on. This could be making money. This could

Alison Wood Brooks: 41:20

that's right.

Jason Blitman: 41:20

I could market it. I could be focusing time and energy and effort to build it and to grow it. But that also means sacrificing the other things that I'm

Alison Wood Brooks: 41:29

That's right. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 41:30

it is that opportunity cost.

Alison Wood Brooks: 41:32

Yes. And the always wondering like, what if, what if I had taken a different tree branch of my possible lives? Um, what if I had thrown more? What if I invested more in this task than another one? Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 41:46

wouldn't have the basketball or you wouldn't have the band, or you

Alison Wood Brooks: 41:49

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 41:50

at Harvard or you wouldn't, right. Like

Alison Wood Brooks: 41:51

Wouldn't have the kids. I know the thing. Do you, do you find yourself sort of pining? There are things that have fallen by the wayside completely that I like pine for. I loved painting when I was in college and afterwards I still sometimes do paintings as little gifts for my friends. Um, there, I, I danced very seriously as a child and one of my best friends now who's also a professor at Harvard is a ballerina. Was a ballerina. And I thought, and my, I always look at her, I'm like, God, it, your life is so cool. Like, I wonder if I had stuck with dance if I could have also gone to like a performing arts high school and like had that be a more significant part of your identity. But you never get to find out

Jason Blitman: 42:31

I am, like my brain going a mile a minute thinking, okay, how can Allison incorporate dance into the art of conversation? Because dancing is a conversation,

Alison Wood Brooks: 42:44

it is.

Jason Blitman: 42:46

or painting. Can you multitask? Can you be listening to an audio book while you're painting or watching TV at night while you're painting? Right? So I'm, I am, better or for worse. That's how my brain functions. And I'm like, no, Jason, stop. You're doing too many things.

Alison Wood Brooks: 43:01

So listen, and this is the other thing for people who also struggle with the doing too many things, I also find, and maybe you feel like, tell me if you feel the same way. I find the most profound sort of, I joy in doing an immersive task where you can't possibly be multitasking. So I think about things like snow skiing, water skiing, um, playing basketball, sometimes cooking, although no, I'm really trying to multitask too much. But these tasks, uh, sailing, um, things that are really physical and like mentally engaging where you can't possibly be doing two or three things at once. Um, actually painting for me is sort of like that. You can't really be texting while you're in, like dumping paint on a canvas. I don't know. I yearn for both. It's like I know the efficiency of doing lots of things at once, but also I yearn for that immersive thing that focuses your mind completely so that you can't even possibly be toggling to oth other tasks.

Jason Blitman: 44:04

Yeah. Well, and I guess it's less about toggling and more about finding the right marriage.

Alison Wood Brooks: 44:12

Tapping the adjacent, have you heard this phrase, tapping the adjacent possible?

Jason Blitman: 44:18

No, but I'm obsessed.

Alison Wood Brooks: 44:20

like when you do many things, so like let's say you're doing lots of different things. You start to see connect I connections between the ideas and themes that other people don't see. It's sort of a pattern recognition thing where you're like, oh, I can tap the adjacent possible between writing music and cooking and teaching this class at Harvard in a way that maybe no one else could. Um, an idea about like what does it mean to be creative? What does it mean to collaborate effectively? Oh, I'm learning things from my band mates and from my husband who's annoyed with me while I'm cooking, and also from my 180 students. Um, and tapping the adjacent possible is, feels really good.

Jason Blitman: 45:01

is the title of your next book.

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:07

We'll see.

Jason Blitman: 45:07

You're welcome. Nope, that's

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:09

Thank you so much. Credit, eat credit.

Jason Blitman: 45:12

Um, I know. Just a a, an acknowledgement or a dedication. We could become friends and then I'll get the dedication.

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:18

Okay, good.

Jason Blitman: 45:19

we're a little too, uh, we're not quite friends enough yet.

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:22

Hey, the first, the first conference. It's the first step,

Jason Blitman: 45:25

I know. It is the first step. Um, it's so funny'cause I was in, in reading the book, I realized how much I loved first dates,

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:34

right?

Jason Blitman: 45:35

speed dating,

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:36

I know.

Jason Blitman: 45:38

all sorts of things where I just got to engage with another person.

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:41

I know.

Jason Blitman: 45:41

Um, I did a project for myself briefly, uh, that I called friend of the day and I had a goal of meeting a new person every single day.

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:51

It's so nice. Like a new, like a stranger, like a new, like making a new friend.

Jason Blitman: 45:55

I was living in New York City.

Alison Wood Brooks: 45:57

I'm so proud of you. That sounds so fun and hard.

Jason Blitman: 45:59

was so fun. I did it for about a month and a half. Uh, it was very hard. And then I was at a bar, or I, I was like on my way to the subway and walked into a bar just before the subway.'cause I hadn't met someone yet. And I sat at the bar and was chatting with the bartender and told him about this project that I was doing, and he said to me, well, I'm not your friend. We just met. Like, that's not what a friend is.

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:23

You're like, what the fuck?

Jason Blitman: 46:24

Well, no, it, it was, it was so, it was

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:27

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:27

realization

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:28

Yeah. That's right.

Jason Blitman: 46:29

like, you're right.

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:30

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:30

is not a friend.

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:32

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:32

a human. And like I'm, that's a, it's a fun

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:35

Which is also valuable. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:38

Um,

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:39

But a friendship is a.

Jason Blitman: 46:40

means.

Alison Wood Brooks: 46:41

A friendship. Any relationship is a repeated sequence of conversations over pretty long periods of time. But the first one is important and like a lot of people are missing out on the benefits that you can get even from that first one, or even the benefits you get from interacting with somebody that you're never gonna interact with again. Like there is, there is great value in that, even if it doesn't become an actual friend.

Jason Blitman: 47:07

Absolutely. And sometimes that's sad.

Alison Wood Brooks: 47:10

Mm-hmm. I know. Did you write about your, did you write about these encounters? Did you write them down?

Jason Blitman: 47:16

it. Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks: 47:17

It's really, I That must've have been so funny. Oh my gosh.

Jason Blitman: 47:21

picture with each of them and I also, I, I had little, little cards printed that basically pointed the person to the blog and gave them an email address. I had aspirations of throwing a New Year's party at the end of the

Alison Wood Brooks: 47:37

With all the friends, all the quote unquote friends. Did you, I mean now this actually could be a book, right? Like this?

Jason Blitman: 47:44

I am. That was when I, before I started Gay's reading, that was the idea was to meet a new person once a week

Alison Wood Brooks: 47:51

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 47:52

sort of learn about them

Alison Wood Brooks: 47:53

And did any of them actually blossom into real relationships? Real friendships,

Jason Blitman: 47:57

Um, none of them became real friendships, but a few of them, uh, I had crossed paths with

Alison Wood Brooks: 48:06

fun.

Jason Blitman: 48:07

so that was very interesting. Sort of just the, how do you sort of reconnect along the journey that his life?

Alison Wood Brooks: 48:14

In the book, did you see the part that has the closeness lines at the, the, the graph at the end? It was, it's at the end. If you didn't get to that part, I don't blame you. It's a long, it's a book. It's a long book. But there are these, ima there's this image at the end, near the end of the book called Closeness Lines by this illustrator named Olivia de Racicot. It was for the New Yorker, probably 10 years ago. And it's literally just two lines. And it, she tries to plot like how close she feels to different types of people. And so like a one night stand is just like an ex where you like cross paths and then never see each other again. Um, you think about your relationship with your mother or your spouse or a friend or your dog, and she's like, makes all these closeness lines. Yeah, they're so beautiful and they were so popular when she published them in, in The New Yorker. But I think that's, it really captures something profound about relationships is that each one has a unique sort of shape to it. But what is missing from the illustrations are the, are the dots. And this is where the sort of meta the last metaphor of the book comes from, which is every conversation is sort of like a knot on those strings, on those closeness lines. And imagine if. It's sort of like cafe lights and we can make each one of the knots, each one of the lights, just like glow a little bit brighter. Your closeness lines are gonna get closer and closer and sort of be more meaningful over time.

Jason Blitman: 49:37

I will say another a, a version of that is, um, Jedediah Jenkins, who is also a nonfiction author. Uh, he was talking recently about how we need a word for someone who is not quite a friend, but more than an acquaintance,

Alison Wood Brooks: 49:58

love that.

Jason Blitman: 49:59

coined or coined whatever that means. Uh, a friendly

Alison Wood Brooks: 50:03

Ooh. It's like some, and they can differ, right? Like it's usually someone that you're excited to see, you know, some things about, you're happy to be together, but you wouldn't necessarily be like, this is my friend.

Jason Blitman: 50:19

right. Or you wouldn't necessarily have like, called them to come to dinner that night,

Alison Wood Brooks: 50:22

Yeah, definitely. That's a very small circle of people. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 50:27

like maybe they'd be someone that you'd say, Hey, I'm going here. Would you want to join?

Alison Wood Brooks: 50:31

And if you, yes, and if you hurt them in some way, you would feel bad about it. You'd feel like, did I impede on a potential future that I may have had with this person? But you would not, it would not be like, it wouldn't like ruin your life in the way that hurting a someone you're sort of, that someone that you're very close to can sort of immediately and terribly ruin your closeness lines. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 51:03

be perhaps easily re connectable.

Alison Wood Brooks: 51:06

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 51:07

Yeah. it's funny because as we, as we sort of went down our little path of conversation and not talking specifically about what it means to have a conversation, uh, I, I encourage listeners to check out the book and, uh, maybe re-listen to this chunk and see if there are any elements from the book that you can, you can clock or pick up. Um, some, so it's, it's funny that you bring up these line drawings because I switched between physically reading it and the

Alison Wood Brooks: 51:39

Oh, of course, of course. Yes. I'm sorry for shaming you about the image. It's, it's my fault for not describing it in the audio book.

Jason Blitman: 51:49

totally fine. Totally fine though. Hilariously, uh, you talking about shaming there is in, there is a very specific story that you tell in the book, about something you say in a class. It's something you say in one of your classes when you were a very early

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:02

Yes, yes,

Jason Blitman: 52:04

even told the rest of the story, I was like, oh, I see where this is going

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:07

course. Yeah, of course.

Jason Blitman: 52:10

Um, anyway, I digress. But I

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:12

Who were you? Were you proud? Who were you proud of in that story? Were you proud of the students and of me, or were you sort of like, Ooh, this is cringey

Jason Blitman: 52:20

I was proud of both of you because it's hard

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:22

cool.

Jason Blitman: 52:23

and the fact that the students were able to have that hard conversation with you, uh, and mentioned that this was the first time they've ever been, felt comfortable saying something to a professor

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:33

I know.

Jason Blitman: 52:34

to, like, it's hard for any of us to, to acknowledge that we've made a mistake,

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:40

I was like a 27-year-old progressive, cool, young person. I was like, me of all people is I'm the one that's like doing this dastardly microaggression. And they were like, no, no, no, no. Don't worry. Like everyone's doing it.

Jason Blitman: 52:54

Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:55

You're just the only one that we feel comfortable saying it to. And I was like, oh. I mean, that doesn't, it does and does not make it better. You know what I mean? Like it,

Jason Blitman: 53:04

No, but like this is how we learn and grow.

Alison Wood Brooks: 53:06

yeah. You have to be receptive. You have to be receptive to hard things.

Jason Blitman: 53:10

hundred percent. So I was listening to the audio book and hilariously, you were talking about this one particular section about, listening and how our minds wander. And there's so many things that we do and like, you know, you have a lot of great books behind you. So I, throughout this conversation, I've been like, what books do I see where the sidewalk

Alison Wood Brooks: 53:32

They're, they're all my friends. A lot of'em are, a lot of my, are my like behavioral scientist friends. Yeah. That's very funny.

Jason Blitman: 53:40

to the audio book. You're talking about this specific thing. There, I'm walking my dog. There are dogs that are barking. I like Miss pieces, chunks of

Alison Wood Brooks: 53:48

Of course.

Jason Blitman: 53:49

into my brain. And I was like, this is literally, this is exactly what the book is talking about, right in this moment.

Alison Wood Brooks: 53:54

am so glad you had this meta. I hope it was validating. I hope you could feel my love in that moment. I wish I could crawl through your, the headphones and just say like, it's okay. If you missed that last paragraph. It's okay.

Jason Blitman: 54:05

so validating. Um, uh, but what I found most interesting, is that the book is called Talk,

Alison Wood Brooks: 54:16

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 54:17

and yet really a huge piece of a conversation is listening.

Alison Wood Brooks: 54:23

I actually think the book should probably be called listening. I don't, that's that's not a great title. A talk is an either, and I honestly, I don't love acronyms, but it kind of had to be the acronym of the book. It's the, it's the core thing, but really, I think probably a better title if you're reflecting what the, the message of the book is, would be something like, understood. Like, how do we make sure that when we're communicating with people, whether, whether it's through our words or between the lines, right? Like not, you cannot possibly say everything you're thinking to each other and a lot of great relationships. You don't need to say much at all. Um, to really understand each other, what the point of all of this is. Like how can we communicate better with each other so that we do come to understand each other's minds better?'cause we're doing a lot of talking that really fails to come to a place of mutual understanding.

Jason Blitman: 55:20

Yeah. Well, yes,

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:24

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 55:25

gonna go back and say I feel like I, this, this comes up in the book, the idea of needing to explain yourself.

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:33

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 55:34

hope I wasn't coming across as, uh, judging the title of the, I mean, I'm saying I hope I'm, I know that you don't feel this way,

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:41

Oh no, no.

Jason Blitman: 55:41

am. It is an interesting element of the doey dough of the conversation because

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:47

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 55:48

one can have a moment of saying, oh, geez, I hope that me saying, about the listening portion? And the book is only called Talk. What if it comes across a certain way?

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:58

And that would be, and that would be a legitimate reason for you to miss something that I was saying. In the meantime, you're like, you're hooked on this very kind rumination of like, oh shit, did I just like hurt her feelings? And in that moment miss something that I'm saying then that like, maybe I would actually be hurt that you missed. So it's just this constant unfolding of like trying to balance being engaged with each other, but also our minds are just the velocity of thoughts and ideas and ruminations that are happening behind the scenes is, is is crazy.

Jason Blitman: 56:31

Coming in and out and

Alison Wood Brooks: 56:33

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 56:34

I mean, you know, again, we're talking about looking under the hood a little bit. I'm looking at the, two, not double space, two single spaced, Google Doc sheets of things I wanna talk to you about. I've talked about about three of them. I'm simultaneously looking at the time you're a Harvard professor, and I'm sure you have a lot of shit to do you know, so I, I'm, should have started this conversation by saying how do you navigate, uh, is important to address in a conversation when you know you have a limited amount of time?

Alison Wood Brooks: 57:07

Yeah, We're always limited. There are real limitations, right? So you could read this book and be like, okay, I got it. I'm gonna master this. But you're still, you're still always constrained by time and also by our human limitations. So like our brains are not actually supercomputers and we get tired. Physically, emotionally, spiritually, motivationally, tired. Even if I know I should be preparing for a conversation with someone that I deeply love or like haven't seen in years, I may not have enough energy or time to actually prepare in the way that I want to. Or I might not be able to bring this like gusto of energy that I know is needed to make things fun because I'm li I'm exhausted and like,

Jason Blitman: 57:51

you rattled off all the hobbies that you have,

Alison Wood Brooks: 57:53

or any, but everybody has, right? Like everybody,

Jason Blitman: 57:56

no, no. Of course, of course.

Alison Wood Brooks: 57:56

like everybody is gets tired. Everybody is limited by time. And so like when I actually, when I talk to a lot of high level leaders like CEOs and stuff, this is their question. They're like, I love everything about this book. I want, I do so many of these things. I wanna do them all better. I know this is the key to life and leadership and work and success, all of it. How do I do it? I'm so constrained by time. How can I possibly connect with as many people as possible in a, in as meaningful a way as possible when I'm always, I don't have time to do enough of the fun. I don't have enough time to go on enough like digressions and sidebars and ask the weird follow-up questions. Um, and I think that is, that is ultimately the a, a sort of hard question to grapple with. And I think the question of life is like, you can't actually be friends with everyone in the world and you can't actually have all the great conversation. But if you get to a point where like, that's your biggest problem, like we could never have enough time with other people because there's too much fun to be had and we can't, we don't have time for all of it. That's, that's to me, success.

Jason Blitman: 59:09

Yeah. I love that. I mean, I also see a follow up book, right? That addresses that. I'm, I am curious to learn more about nonverbal conversations,

Alison Wood Brooks: 59:21

My friend, my friend Dana Carney actually is an, she's at Berkeley. Uh, she's amazing. And she has a book coming out about nonverbal, um, communication. We were like, let's, we should bundle our books together. So everybody gets all of it all at once. But I believe, I believe her book is gonna be called Tell, and it's, um, like a tell and when you're playing poker. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 59:43

if you're at a, at a loud party, right? Like, just being able to navigate that quote unquote conversation.

Alison Wood Brooks: 59:50

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 59:50

I'm obsessed with everything about your book. I'm obsessed with you. I loved it so much. There's, there are very few books where I'm like, I'm holding onto this forever. I underline things. I like, I'm going to turn to this all the time. I'm gonna give it to people. I'm gonna talk to people about it. but before I let you go, I have one. Quick question. That is, I say quick question. Hilarious. It's, this is probably very sacrilegious, um, is not, is I'm gonna say what, because I've learned from the book that

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:17

Look at you.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:19

is the best is,

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:20

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:20

um, does a perfect or ideal conversation look like to you?

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:29

Mm. Imperfect. Imperfect.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:33

answer.

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:34

I think, I think perfection isn't the right goal. I think, uh, the, the sort of fear of writing this book in the way that it's written is that you get the impression that we're trying to do all of the things and do them perfectly, when actually the, what it means to be human is to sort of acknowledge that we, this is a very hard coordination game. We're ne the best communicators. Not only are never going to be perfect, but don't aim to be perfect that in our little flops and our stumbles and like our weird idea, our tapping the adjacent possible and our weirdest ideas, that's what makes us most human and the most able to connect with each other. It's why we love talking to people much more than talking to ai. AI can't do levity. Well, AI can't ask an off the wall unpredictable, uh, question. Uh, a AI can't say no to you. Like it's just gonna give you everything you want. People say no to you, and they're complicated and messy. And that's what makes a great conversation, is being messy together and, and getting through it and having fun.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:40

I love that. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for being here.

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:01:45

Thank you for your time and being here and having these glorious conversations, uh, all day long. I'm still celebrating your earlier conversation.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:54

you. know, I was just like, get off the call. I have more conversations to have. So

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:02:01

to be here. Thank you so much.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:02

you everyone. Go check out talk the science of conversation and the art of being ourselves by Allison Wood Brooks. You don't wanna miss it.