0:33

Hello and welcome to Gays Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman and Happy Pride. It's June, I can't believe it's June. Where has the year gone? On today's episode, we have Lucas Schaefer, who talks to me about his epic debut novel, the Slip, which is out today, and the guest, gay reader. Is Mike Curato, whose book Flamer is one of the most banned books in the United States. We talk about what he's reading and learn about his new book, GAYSIANS, which is also out today. Their full bios are in the show notes. There is so much to look forward to this month in celebration of pride. There will be two episodes each week for the month of June. I just counted yesterday and realized that I have. 14 conversations that have been recorded and not released yet, and I am just bubbling with excitement to share them with you. Of course, you could watch all the episodes over on YouTube. Make sure you're following us on social media at Gaze Reading on Instagram and Blue Sky and subscribe wherever you get your podcast so that you will stay in the know there's a gaze reading. Substack where I have a book buying pride guide, it's free. But if you're so inclined, you can get a paid subscription for less than the price of a coffee per month, and you could support this gay indie podcast. Speaking of supporting this gay indie podcast, there is gay's reading merch, and it's so cute, and you could see everything that is in the little merch store. In the link, in the show notes, there's a gay reader sweatshirt and mugs, and there's an A is for ally t-shirt and all sorts of super fun stuff. So make sure to check that out. If you are new to Gay's Reading, welcome. If you've listened before, thank you for coming back. Gay's Reading is an inti podcast and a labor of love, so if you are enjoying the show, please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. I know I said that already, but I, it doesn't hurt to say it again. Share us with your friends, and if you're so inclined, leave a five star review So that the algorithm can help other folks find the show as well, it means so much. And I am super grateful to those of you who have done so already and for everyone's support, throughout the last two years of the podcast. I cannot believe we're about to celebrate two years of gay reading. Ugh, crazy. Well, to kick off Pride Month, please enjoy my conversations with Lucas Schafer and Mike Curato.

Jason Blitman: 3:01

I am so excited that you're

Lucas Schaefer: 3:03

Yeah. This is great. Thank you for having me.

Jason Blitman: 3:05

welcome to Gay's Reading.

Lucas Schaefer: 3:06

Oh, we're on. We're, this is happening. I do You know what's so silly? I have listened to your show many times and this always happens, and you do the, you were like, oh, we're recording, but we don't have to start. And I was like, obviously we're on, because I've been through this experience, as a listener, but now I've been through it as a guest.

Jason Blitman: 3:28

Did I, do you feel like I pulled something over on you?

Lucas Schaefer: 3:31

No, not at all. I think as, as soon as someone says I am recording,

Jason Blitman: 3:35

It's fair

Lucas Schaefer: 3:36

buckle up. But I was still tricked.

Jason Blitman: 3:38

I'm gonna, but I didn't even trick

Lucas Schaefer: 3:41

No, you didn't trick me. You were No, you were very forthright.

Jason Blitman: 3:44

We're here to talk about the slip.

Lucas Schaefer: 3:45

slip

Jason Blitman: 3:46

You have your finished

Lucas Schaefer: 3:47

I do have my finished copy and it's got. It's a two texture situation, which I was not prepared for when I got it. But there's the glossy red and then the more textured finish The matte? Yes. Is that how you say that? Matte? Do you say matte?

Jason Blitman: 4:01

M-A-T-T-E.

Lucas Schaefer: 4:02

Yeah. Is that I've never known. I've seen the matte. Yeah. The Matt.

Jason Blitman: 4:07

Listen, we are educational on gay reading,

Lucas Schaefer: 4:11

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:12

I wanna hear your elevator pitch for the book, and then I like, I have a very long list of things to

Lucas Schaefer: 4:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:19

Don't wanna talk about anything specific to the book because I don't want to give a single thing away about it.'cause

Lucas Schaefer: 4:25

I, Greg my husband was reading a series of I did a q and a where it was just like, I type out the answers and I gave it to him to be like, is this okay? And he was like, you have somehow managed, because I've now done a couple weeks of promotion, somehow manage in all of these things to talk about sort of the themes in the book and the issues in the book without saying one thing that happens in the book. And I'm like, yes. That's great. That's good.

Jason Blitman: 4:51

I don't read blurbs, going into reading a

Lucas Schaefer: 4:54

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:54

I knew boxing and I knew Texas, and I know you're gay.

Lucas Schaefer: 4:59

I am.

Jason Blitman: 5:00

I like assumed some mix of those things

Lucas Schaefer: 5:03

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:04

As I was reading, I was like, what happening?

Lucas Schaefer: 5:09

Yeah. There's a lot's happening.

Jason Blitman: 5:12

what is your elevator pitch for

Lucas Schaefer: 5:14

Okay. So the slip, my name is Luca Shaeffer. The book is called The Slip because I see people do that on your show too. They do the nice introduc.

Jason Blitman: 5:21

happened one time. I said to you, I Lucas Schaeffer, welcome to Gay's Reading

Lucas Schaefer: 5:25

I liked it. I was, I'm just, I just want I'm a very regular listener. I'm a very regular listener. Okay. So the slip the story of the slip is this, or the pitch of the slip is this 16-year-old Nathaniel Rothstein is this miserable high school kid, very unhappy from Newton, Massachusetts. He gets into a fight at school and his mother, who is sick of dealing with him, sends him for the summer of 1998 to live with his uncle in Austin, Texas. And in Austin, his uncle sets him up with a volunteer position at a nursing home, and he befriends his boss at the nursing home, who is a Haitian born Xbox or named David Delise. And the two of them have this really magical kind of summer where David takes Nathaniel under his wing and starts training him at a boxing gym. And Nathaniel really is feeling himself and finding himself and coming into his own. And at the end of this summer, he disappears, and the book is about what happened to him and follows a huge cast of characters over about 14 years who are all connected to his disappearance in some way.

Jason Blitman: 6:30

Perfect. Very succinct, very thoughtful,

Lucas Schaefer: 6:34

you. Very rehearsed. Yes. Yep. Done it before. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 6:37

think that's a bad thing. I, as I said moments ago, I started reading and I was like, what the hell is happening? And so I, when I was about three quarters of the way through, started to reach out to the two people who I knew definitely read the book. One being Greg Marshall and one being your editor, Tim.

Lucas Schaefer: 7:00

He did. He mentioned you'd been in touch. Yes. He didn't say what you said, but he said you'd been in touch.

Jason Blitman: 7:06

I was like, I need to discuss this with other humans who I know for sure have read

Lucas Schaefer: 7:09

Yeah, those two definitely have. Those two. Definitely have,

Jason Blitman: 7:14

And I don't want, again, I don't wanna say too much because I just was so much I needed to unpack with other

Lucas Schaefer: 7:19

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:19

I was grateful for that. If you were sent away for the summer, where would you go or where do you think your mom would've sent you?

Lucas Schaefer: 7:27

As punishment or to be happy?

Jason Blitman: 7:30

The, do you think there are different places? you can't be home for the summer, you need to go here.

Lucas Schaefer: 7:34

I was a camp kid, like I went to overnight camp and I love Yeah. But I loved being sent away. I was a little theater, gay and.

Jason Blitman: 7:43

What camp did you go to?

Lucas Schaefer: 7:44

Camp Emerson in Hinsdale, Massachusetts still exists. New ownership the funny thing about the book is, and I'm sure we'll get into this, there are all of these characters who demographically are nothing like me. Nathaniel is white and Jewish, so would and is from Newton, Massachusetts, which is where I'm from. So it's presumably the most like me, but it's also very unlike me in that I was a good kid and pretty happy and not Nathaniel is going through it in the book. As both a reader and a writer, I want the big story, the big narrator. Like I was never gonna be writing a slim volume about, being a gay man in Texas, which is a very interesting thing to write about, but it's just not this book and not my deal.

Jason Blitman: 8:24

Am stuck on summer camp. And you said you were a theater gay. What did, what shows did you do at Summer Camp?

Lucas Schaefer: 9:08

My sort of tour de force was uh, Euless in, a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. Yes. I was Snoopy and you're a good man, Charlie Brown. I was a shark in a questionable production of West Side Story. I think that might not have flown in 2025. I don't know.

Jason Blitman: 9:29

in the context of this

Lucas Schaefer: 9:30

It's very relevant to the book. Very relevant to the book. I did a bunch. I was in. Guys and dolls kiss me, Kate We did them all, we did all the classics.

Jason Blitman: 9:38

Speaking of questionable, when I was in summer camp, I of course played the Tin Man and The Wiz.

Lucas Schaefer: 9:43

Where did you go to summer camp? I,

Jason Blitman: 9:45

It was like a local theater camp

Lucas Schaefer: 9:48

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 9:50

So nothing away, nothing But yeah the wiz papa gay in once on this island, lots of roles that this little white boy should not have been playing. The book is called The Slip,

Lucas Schaefer: 10:02

yes.

Jason Blitman: 10:03

which am, I'm, I am questioning my close reader ness in making this

Lucas Schaefer: 10:09

Yeah. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 10:10

but. A slip is a boxing move that I am sure is not once mentioned in the book.

Lucas Schaefer: 10:19

Okay. Your close reading leaves something to be desired, but it's mentioned briefly. It's mentioned briefly. There are two brief mentions. There are three brief, there are three brief mentions, but it's not,

Jason Blitman: 10:31

it's not like a whole, a major

Lucas Schaefer: 10:33

It is not a major thing. And also it, a slip has many meanings in the context of this book and in the context of the world. So certainly, and I think you would I don't know if you would agree with this, but this is not really a book where you need to know anything about boxing to read the book or even enjoy boxing to enjoy the book.

Jason Blitman: 10:51

I love, as I've said many times particularly Friday night lights, a Where you don't need to know anything about the sport. You could just appreciate the world that you're living in.

Lucas Schaefer: 11:00

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 11:00

What's your experience with boxing?

Lucas Schaefer: 11:03

My experience. Okay, so I moved to Austin in 2006 when I was 24. And I kind, I moved here basically for no reason. I was like, I graduated college. I was this, gay kid with writerly aspirations. So I moved to Brooklyn, which seemed like that's where you go. And I was I like this, but it's very expensive and I feel like there are other parts of the country that I would like to see. And I had a professor who is very influential in my life who had lived in Austin previously and said, you should give Austin a try. So I moved here and I didn't know anyone or I knew a couple people, but di didn't have any really close connections. And I saw an ad for an evening boxing class. This was 2006. This sounds like it's like 1940. It was 2006. But they had, they used to have this thing called informal classes in Austin, which was run by the University of Texas. And it was basically they'd put out this giant catalog that had community classes. In all different, subjects and you'd pick it up at the supermarket or wherever. And I was like, I'm already in Texas, out of my comfort zone. Like why not go to a boxing gym? Because I also don't know anything about that. And so I went and really just fell in love with the gym. I wouldn't say I fell in love with boxing. I ended up going there for five or six years. Very consistently. Yeah. To work out. I was not, I wasn't

Jason Blitman: 12:39

you like I hate this.

Lucas Schaefer: 12:40

I didn't, oh, the boxing workout was great. I've sparred twice in my life and spar, that actually is a generous interpretation of that word. I've twice gotten into the ring with like headgear and the body cup and I. Messed around. And both times it was clear that this is not something that someone who wants to be a writer and needs their brain should be doing with my skill level, but, which is not very high. But but I loved the gym it was this atmosphere where everyone was, and for someone who didn't know the city, it was so fun because it was people from the east side and the west side, every side of the city, every race and class and personality type. This is something that I get into in the book, but it was just truly this melting pot environment. And unlike a lot of environments in America where there are lots of different people, this one. Felt more like a true melting pot, like you were working side by side with other people um, and

Jason Blitman: 13:51

all doing the same

Lucas Schaefer: 13:52

you're all doing the same thing. It felt pretty integrated. Obviously there were hobbyists like me and then professional boxers and amateur boxers, but even those lines were blurred in terms of if you're at the heavy bag, the person next to you might be a lawyer or a realtor or a professional boxer or whatever. So I was just very enamored with this world and most of my friends in those early days in Austin and still to some extent came from the gym. And so it, it was always a meaningful place to me. And I knew early on in my writing career that it was a location I would wanna draw from based on sort of the themes I'm interested in.

Jason Blitman: 14:35

sure. And also just like great setting for a cast of colorful characters

Lucas Schaefer: 14:41

For part of the time I was wor working out at the gym. I was also a seventh grade teacher at an all girls school, and I was teaching English and history. And for a while I was also the seventh grade advisor, which if I was not a fun job for me. But but the funny thing was there was so much more drama at the gym than in this seventh grade classroom. I was always just like, how is there Oh, oh. And there was a lot of drama in seventh grade, there were always like, just all of the gym drama was always very compelling to me.

Jason Blitman: 15:21

Yeah. When I think about a terrible time in my life, seventh grade is like pretty high on the list.

Lucas Schaefer: 15:27

I don't recommend revisiting it as a teacher either. I had a good experience, but I was ready to retire. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 15:35

Something that I loved about the boxing gym or not loved, but something that was, that tickled me a little bit is that the term wrap up is a way to start where it's so often a term that's to end.

Lucas Schaefer: 15:49

have never thought of that. That is a great point. Yes. Because you're wrapping up your hands, so wrap up. But that actually means let's get started. That is it.

Jason Blitman: 15:57

up. sounds like it's time to,

Lucas Schaefer: 15:59

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:00

your face was so funny. You were like, okay, let's,

Lucas Schaefer: 16:02

That's good. Yeah. No, that's good. That's, I like that. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:08

Yeah. Is the gym still a way for you to blow off steam? Because it's like clearly a place that people, that's what people would do. I guess really, I should say, what is now, at this point in your life, what is

Lucas Schaefer: 16:16

yes. I'm a Peloton or I'm a Peloton person. I go to the YMCA, which is, does not have, I would say, does not have the drama of the gym, but does have the characters. Um, A lot of,

Jason Blitman: 16:32

YMCA have a Peloton, or do you have one at home?

Lucas Schaefer: 16:34

no, I have a Peloton at home. The Peloton I would not want to do in public. I don't think

Jason Blitman: 16:40

Is it because of sweating? Is it

Lucas Schaefer: 16:42

sweating. It's facial expressions. It's like, you know, yelling out the encouraging things we're supposed to yell out. It's just not, it doesn't need to be,

Jason Blitman: 16:53

gonna get stuck in the clip? Am I gonna fall over?

Lucas Schaefer: 16:55

it does not need to be. Seen in, in public me doing the Peloton but those are my two those are my two. And actually since having a child, the other thing that I've, in movies there's people are always like sitting in cars before they like go inside. And I was like, never, I never, I was like, why are they just, and now I'm always like, I just need five minutes, like in the car. So that's my other, I don't know if that's blowing off steam, but that's something I now understand on a very deep level, just

Jason Blitman: 17:25

A little reset moment to yourself,

Lucas Schaefer: 17:29

exactly.

Jason Blitman: 17:30

A moment of silence, if you will. Okay. A, don't wanna say major plot point'cause yes it is major plot point, but this isn't anything giving anything A major theme.

Lucas Schaefer: 17:40

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:41

a major motif is a sex hotline.

Lucas Schaefer: 17:45

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 17:46

Have you ever called one? Have you ever worked for one?

Lucas Schaefer: 17:50

I have, no, I was, I have never called the sex hotline. I was a little the story is set in 1998 when I was in high school, when Nathaniel was in high school, and this is like the end of the phone sex hotline era because the inter.

Jason Blitman: 18:42

a hundred percent sure we could find one right

Lucas Schaefer: 18:44

No, you absolutely can. You a, you definitely can find them. And I actually have done some research into this because the phone text hotline is a one 900 number, and really by 1998, a lot of those were not one 900 numbers, but it just, it 900 number. Everyone knows what that means. So we decided not to get too cute with it. I have never called a phone sex hotline.

Jason Blitman: 19:09

Not even for research. is disappointing to me. I'm not gonna lie

Lucas Schaefer: 19:13

No I am so sorry. I feel like the,

Jason Blitman: 19:16

to wanna call one right now, I like, can't I

Lucas Schaefer: 19:19

I feel like the equivalent of that for a gay person of my generation was more like the chat room, which that I had experience with. I.

Jason Blitman: 19:29

I will say something very specific about the book for me was its like atmosphere and vibe and the nineties, two thousands, nostalgia transformation of technology was something that I very much lived through

Lucas Schaefer: 19:43

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:44

Felt in my body while reading the book. And I was taken immediately to the chat rooms.

Lucas Schaefer: 19:49

Yeah. I, there's a different chat room vibe and also the character Belinda, who's this 41-year-old phone sex operator, hairdresser, sort of jack of all trades.

Jason Blitman: 20:03

Yes. Multihyphenate. I think we would call them today.

Lucas Schaefer: 20:05

It's intentional that she's, really working to make ends meet and has this job that is a dying trade. That, that's not talked about there, but it seems fitting with everything else we know about her, that she has this job that's like on the way out

Jason Blitman: 20:19

did you have an internet boyfriend?

Lucas Schaefer: 20:21

Like a consistent internet boyfriend? I did.

Jason Blitman: 20:25

or a, was there when we talk about chat room, was there like some, you've got mail sort of way you were excited when that person was online or that person

Lucas Schaefer: 20:34

Oh yeah. I,

Jason Blitman: 20:35

might not have known their real

Lucas Schaefer: 20:37

yeah. Oh, for sure. For sure. I don't think I was like, I don't wanna say dilu. I don't think I had diluted myself into thinking, oh, this is like gonna be the person I spend the rest of my life with.

Jason Blitman: 20:48

Oh sure. No, I deluded myself just to be like, this person on this magical box in front of me cares about me, and we have a connection in quotes, whatever that means. I never ever thought we'd

Lucas Schaefer: 21:02

The big thing I,

Jason Blitman: 21:04

by whatever, XX

Lucas Schaefer: 21:07

right. The, there were, I had a few people I met in chatroom atmospheres, who then became like a IM like aim friends. So that was like the next, that was the next level because, with aim, it was also just you're like, high school friends or college friends or whoever. I do miss aol instant messenger, I,

Jason Blitman: 21:28

Yeah. There was the like weird anonymity, yet very personal connection about it. Especially in the gay community, there's Grindr and Scruff and all the apps, and so the things are very photo and location forward, it was always a SL, right?

Lucas Schaefer: 21:47

And as a writer, it's funny. First of all, Greg, my husband and I have been married or have been together so long that we actually met like pre-app. And so like I, if I were to have to write about Grindr, I would have to do I don't even know the basic terms. But I would also say as a writer, I think 1998 is a really appealing time, dramatically because there are some cell phones. Like cell phones play a role in this story, but they're not equipped with the internet, so you can't just get. All of misinformation right then, and not everyone has one. One of the things about this book is that it is a mystery. It's other things as well, but you do hopefully want to know what happened to Nathaniel, and you do find out it's not, this is not an ambiguous it ending. So the mystery is solved. And when you're writing a mystery, it's really helpful to have times when people can't get information just in their pocket immediately. So it's an appealing, appealing, it was an appealing time period for me to set a book in.

Jason Blitman: 22:56

That was the energy. I think when I reached out to Greg and Tim, I was just like, I cannot read this book fast enough. My brain and my eyeballs cannot read fast enough. I need to know what happens. And I knew instinctively that I would learn, so I was like devouring it, and I think that's why I missed the three mentions of the slip. So that's my

Lucas Schaefer: 23:19

The the other thing I will say is, I think this book is really, hopefully fun, but it is it, but it is long. It's a long, it's a long, you're, this is a, and I I'm an audio book listener as well as a reader, and I just love as a listener when you can just settle in and it's 20 hours taken care of doing your chores, whatever. So that's, that was not I knew I wanted to write this big, complicated, hefty thing.

Jason Blitman: 23:47

It is so funny that this comes up naturally in this conversation I was at the Texas Book Festival this year and of course had coffee with Greg Marshall, your husband, and in turn received a, an inscribed, an autographed galley

Lucas Schaefer: 24:03

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 24:04

And in it you mention that I'm not able to listen to this on three X speed, like Barbara Streisand. And I, it was so funny because I was like, again, three quarters of the way through and I was like, dammit, Lucas, I wish I could listen at three X speed just so that I could like devour the story faster.

Lucas Schaefer: 24:22

It is not as long as that bug.

Jason Blitman: 24:24

no. Oh God

Lucas Schaefer: 24:25

this is yes.

Jason Blitman: 24:26

it's not a 700 page,

Lucas Schaefer: 24:28

No.

Jason Blitman: 24:28

book. And a lot happens and then there are

Lucas Schaefer: 24:31

A lot does happen. Yes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:33

But no I could not listen to it on three x and I desperately wanted to know what happens. Let's, we could talk, let's talk more about

Lucas Schaefer: 24:38

Yeah. Let's do it.

Jason Blitman: 24:40

really this identity story. I am so intrigued that it is not a gay book. It is not a like capital G

Lucas Schaefer: 24:50

Yes. And it's not being marketed, I would say, as a gay book, right?

Jason Blitman: 24:54

I wasn't under any illusion that it

Lucas Schaefer: 24:56

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:57

It just so happens that this is, this episode is coming out on June 3rd. It's June 3rd, happy Bride,

Lucas Schaefer: 25:03

pride. Yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 25:05

I love that it's not a Capital G gay book. And. You look like you're gonna, you wanna respond to that? Tell say

Lucas Schaefer: 25:12

No, there are definitely gay characters and queer characters in the book, but, I was really interested in this idea that I first started really thinking about at the real boxing gym of all of these different types of people coming together and what opportunities arise there and what tensions arise there. And part of writing that book is it can't be a capital G gay book because it's all of these different things. And I don't think this book would've been written. It certainly wouldn't have been written the same way if I wasn't gay. Because I think your sensibility is just influenced by being gay in the world. And I certainly, there's. There's a particular section of the book I think is especially focused on gender and sexuality, but yeah, I liked that it's it's gay, but not gay. Gay, but not capital G gk. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:15

You talk about your sensibility as a gay person being able to write this book.

Lucas Schaefer: 26:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:19

what does identity mean to you? What does that sensibility mean to you? What are some elements that you feel like are, make you the writer that you are?

Lucas Schaefer: 26:29

I set two different guidelines for myself, and I think this is instructive in thinking about identity. One was that all of these characters needed to be singular characters. Nathaniel is not meant to represent every Jewish white teenager. David is not every immigrant from Haiti. These are people with very specific wants and desires and what brings them joy and what brings them pain. I wanted to really nail down all of those elements of character for every single character in the book. On the flip side, there is also the reality that we live in the world, like the book is set in our actual world, and all of us are how we're treated, how we treat ourselves. How we're seen by broader society, by subsections of society. All of that depends on our individual identities, right? So, Both of those things had to be true. And another way I've put this before is if I'm writing two gay characters who are white, let's say those two characters are gonna be completely different because they're completely different people. But if the book is said in 1998, neither of them can serve in the military. Neither of them can get married. Those are just facts of the country of that at that time. And how they react to that may be different, but the fact is there, right? And that's something for them to contend with.

Jason Blitman: 27:56

Is it because you were gay in the nineties that you are aware of sensibilities of identity and maybe a straight white man coming of age in the nineties wouldn't, wouldn't be top of mind.

Lucas Schaefer: 28:10

I think, yeah, that's it. No, I.

Jason Blitman: 28:14

Impose the fact that a straight writer can't understand identity politics, but.

Lucas Schaefer: 28:21

No, I think that's a great question. What I would say is I think what unites all of the characters in this book and is something I definitely drew on from my personal experience just as myself and being gay, Is all of them in one way or another are seen by others as supporting players or comic relief or just not really that important, right? These are the side characters. And that's true for David, who is this activities director at the nursing home, who is faces a lot of. Nasty stuff from the people at the nursing home. He's worked at this nursing home from 1970 until 1998. And he is this Haitian born black man and has experienced all sorts of characters coming through this nursing home, including people who were like not that many generations removed from like the Civil War. So from him to Nathaniel who is straight and white, but is also. Feels very marginalized in his mostly white community. To a lot of the other characters have this same feeling of just, I am not getting to be the protagonist in my own life. And I think a lot of the moments of tension in this book come when those people say, actually I'm, I am gonna be the main character in this story. And so you have a lot of characters who are fighting for real estate in this book because they're saying, I have gone through life being seen by some people in this one way. Or maybe I've seen myself that one way. And I have reached my limit with that. And I think, I think, I don't wanna speak for all gay people, but I think this is something other gay people may relate to, is this feeling of oh my God, we love having a gay friend. Or, whatever. But, that's not who most people I think want to be. I think most people don't aspire to be like the best friend. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:23

There are gay people, there are black people, there are homeless people, there are all sorts of people in the book..

Lucas Schaefer: 30:29

Well, and I really wanted to also lean into the issues associated with all of those things like the, the David and Nathan. I mean, a lot of the Nathaniel section is him thinking about race, his observations about race, often cringeworthy observations. But I kind of want to go there and like be thinking, you know, because part of the book is like, it's this, this white high school kid from a largely white high school, a largely white community, doesn't really have black friends, doesn't have black friends, and is suddenly in this position where his supervisor is black and it, he is thinking a lot. About that. And I wanted that to inform the story. That was important to me. And I think the other thing that relates to that with David and Nathaniel, I think when you're a writer who is, and I think this is especially true with race and especially true with white writers who are. You know, writing non-white characters. But I think when you're writing someone who is not like you there, there can be a tendency to create characters who are almost too good. Right. Because you don't want to step on anyone's toes. Right. And I was very aware of that going in. It's like, no, if you are gonna write. This character of David, like he needs to be a fully formed character and he needs to make mistakes. Yeah, he needs to make mistakes. He needs to make bad decisions. He needs to do all the things, all the rest of us do. And that was sort of a guiding principle throughout. Not that every character needs to always make the wrong decision, but like, I didn't want. I, I kind of did a number of things, I think to kind of take the guardrails off because I really wanted to kind of go there and think deeply about kind of this white kid I. Interacting with this black mentor and all of the complications and, and, and tensions and, and opportunities that arise in that relationship. And in order to do that, I mean, David, you know, I mean he really makes some bad decisions, I would say in this, in this book. And that was. Important to me as long as it went with his character. I mean, one of the interesting things with Nathaniel is there are a couple lines in the book that when we're in Nathaniel's head, sort of in his interior monologue where early readers, like a number of different early readers, were like, I think you should cut this line. And it's like, what? Why should I cut this line? And it's like, it's just, it's like really cringey. It is uncomfortable to read. People are really, it, it's just not, it doesn't land well. And my question was always in thinking about this, both to them but also to myself was like, is this what Nathaniel would be thinking?

Jason Blitman: 33:22

Mm.

Lucas Schaefer: 33:23

And the answer was, unfortunately yes. Right? So, so there are a few moments where it's like, oh, this is like really uncomfortable. Like why is he saying this? And it's like, well, I think this is what this character. You know, based on everything we know about him, unfortunately this is how he sees the world and it just doesn't make sense to not have it in there. So, so I had to just lean into complication in the book, Greg and I have talked about this also, but it, this is part of the reason why I didn't want to write a satire because there, there are elements of the book that are funny and maybe a little bit absurd. Um, I, I do think it's basically said in our actual world, I didn't want to do anything to. Kind of give me permission to not be thinking deeply about this stuff. Like to be able to say, oh, that's, you know, it's a joke. You know, this is supposed to be funny. Or, you know, any of those things.

Jason Blitman: 34:22

it's not rooted in reality.

Lucas Schaefer: 34:23

It's not rooted in reality.

Jason Blitman: 34:25

do something even crazier than,

Lucas Schaefer: 34:27

Exactly. I wanted to just remove those guardrails and say, you know, this is this. situation that is happening and here are how the characters, I think, would act and, and this is what it's based on, and just let the chips fall where they may

Jason Blitman: 34:46

And the reality is if the book came out in

Lucas Schaefer: 34:50

I.

Jason Blitman: 34:50

nobody would that, and I,

Lucas Schaefer: 34:54

I don't think, I don't think though, that I would've been able to write the book in 2002 because I don't think, I think all of the, I think all of these conversations about kind of. Representation and you know, who quote unquote can write what I mean, I think those are really important conversations and I think they really informed the book that I did. Right? Like, I don't think this book would exist in, in 2002. It would be, I

Jason Blitman: 35:24

no, no. It, it would not. I think my point really is that it is a period piece.

Lucas Schaefer: 35:29

It is, it, it, it is, but I, I think what I'm. I think what's interesting to me about the point you just made and, and really did inform a lot of the book was like, I started this in 2013 and that was like, orange is the new Black era and did you watch Orange Is The New Black? Oh, you, you know. Yeah, right. That's all. We didn't need the last, the last 20% could be avoided, but, um, you know, the, the whole thing with that show was it was like, oh, it's this white. Lady who's sort of our entryway into this more diverse population, assuming I, I think that most of the viewers, I guess, would be white and needed that sort of guide, and I really wanted to explore this really varied world without kind of like the guide. Character. Um, and that's not a knock on that show, which I enjoyed watching. But, you know, I think in, I think the 2002 version of this would be as diverse a group, but there'd kind of be the Lucas character who's maybe the center of the universe. Um, and that's not an i, I don't have a specific book in mind, the sense like I'm sort of casting aspersions, but.

Jason Blitman: 36:45

Well, and I also have to say, you know, me saying it's a period piece is really an, it's a disservice to the book that you wrote because it and it, and it, because that's not, it's true and it's untrue. It is a comment on a period piece. Right. It is a, it is a, it's a memory piece.

Lucas Schaefer: 37:04

Yeah, I, I mean, I think it's, I, I also do think it's a period piece in that, I mean, I had, it's so like 1998. I mean it, that, that aspect, but it does go, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 37:15

to elicit conversation about race, about gender, about sexuality, about diversity. That wasn't possible then. And so it's like as the, I don't really know what I'm trying to articulate or how I'm trying to articulate, but I feel like it is a, it is a period piece for a contemporary audience and both things sort of work in tandem with each other.

Lucas Schaefer: 37:38

Well, one of the things I really like about how the book came out is I do think it's. Very much about our current moment. And actually, and this I, I don't want to get into just because I think it is too complicated with the plot, but I mean, there are things happening right now in our country that happen in this book that when I wrote the book seemed like, okay, this could happen. Or maybe it's happened once, but this is unusual and. You know, so it's definitely about 2025, even though I started it in 2013 and it takes place in 1998 and,

Jason Blitman: 38:16

is, I mean, and you, you saying it's about 2025 is why I'm saying calling it a period piece is reductive,

Lucas Schaefer: 38:23

gotcha.

Jason Blitman: 38:23

a period. Right. Like it's,

Lucas Schaefer: 38:24

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:25

why I think it's a, a symbiotic,

Lucas Schaefer: 38:27

But yeah, I mean, but I do think the, the fundamental issue with all of the discussion about, writing outside your quote lived experience or whatever is this question of why, like, why are you doing this? There's one line in the book where, uh. It, it, it involves someone who's complaining about political correctness. And the response is, if, if you can't, you know, if you can't say anything anymore, why am I always hearing the sound of your voice, right? Like, I don't, I'm not interested in the kind of like I have the. The right to say, you know, everyone has the right to say whatever they wanna say, obviously, or write whatever they wanna write. I think the question is like, why are you doing that? You know, thinking of that like Alexander cheap piece or, or whatever. Um, I. And, and you know, that was a fundamental, the why is, is in this case, there's a very fundamental reason, right? Which is, this is a book about what happens when all of these lines that divide us start to fade away. And in some cases those are really funny things. Terrifying things. Poignant things. But things happen when that happens. And. In order for that to happen, I needed this big, varied, diverse cast.

Jason Blitman: 39:46

Mm-hmm. Well, and it's funny'cause like the, I don't wanna use the term extreme because things. When, when lines go away, extreme things can happen, but depending on who you are, something extreme can be different or each thing can be mean, something different to you,

Lucas Schaefer: 40:04

Yes, yes. I think that's very true and, and some of the like sort of. Offenses in this book are the things that incite other things, like our very big things. But then some are like quite small. Yeah, small or silly or whatever. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:22

all, I mean, there's a quote in the book that's, that's to notice is to care. And I think

Lucas Schaefer: 40:27

That's in my book.

Jason Blitman: 40:29

it's in your book

Lucas Schaefer: 40:29

Oh, good. Okay. See, now we're even, we, we've.

Jason Blitman: 40:36

Um, that's like one tiny

Lucas Schaefer: 40:39

Uh, yes. I Now that, now that, now that you say it, I'm, I can, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:45

and I just think that like part of what you're describing too is that You see people, right? And I think you, and you notice people and you care about people. And what you were describing about putting the secondary characters on the page and giving them their stories,

Lucas Schaefer: 41:00

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 41:01

me that's noticing. And so in turn, you're, it's, you're caring, right? And unfortunately, that also means we're putting these people in. Very complicated situation sometimes.

Lucas Schaefer: 41:13

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 41:14

really is that I, I, it

Lucas Schaefer: 41:15

I,

Jason Blitman: 41:15

it comes across in a, in a meaningful way.

Lucas Schaefer: 41:20

When I was a kid it was, we were really in that colorblind era. Like my education was like, oh, everyone's the same, LA la, la. You know? And then obviously we've moved really into. Acknowledging difference and acknowledging privilege and all of these, yeah, all of these really important conversations. One of the questions of the book is can you acknowledge the difference and also find. Some shared humanity. Right? Um, or, or like how do you balance those things or how do you, you know, really have candid conversations about race and sexuality and class and privilege? And also, hold onto this shared sense of, of humanity and purpose. And it, it's not, I don't think the book has an answer to that question, but I think it's, it, it orbits that question.

Jason Blitman: 42:15

All of that makes sense. I was just gonna say thank you for unpacking all of that and this is one of those perfect moments of a listener being like, I don't know what

Lucas Schaefer: 42:23

What you're talking about. Yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 42:25

I was thinking a lot about manifestation and destiny and fate the nuanced differences between those terms. And I never really thought of them as different things before, but, and I purposefully didn't Google prior to this conversation'cause I like didn't want to come in with a definitive answer. But I'm curious, does, say, destiny and fate what does that, what is there a difference to you?

Lucas Schaefer: 42:58

I have never thought of that. I think they a, I do think there's. Some sense in this book that your fate is malleable? I dunno if I wanna, I dunno if I wanna say more, but

Jason Blitman: 43:13

think and I,

Lucas Schaefer: 43:15

I,

Jason Blitman: 43:15

oh and I think, and I think maybe that's where my thought process was in thinking through the differences in my Fate is not malleable,

Lucas Schaefer: 43:28

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:29

faded. And I guess Say something is destined, but like for me, destiny can be manifested. And I don't think fate can be.

Lucas Schaefer: 43:39

Yeah, that's interesting. There is a line towards the end of the book where a character has this, actually, I don't think a character has this realization. I think the, our omniscient narrator just says it that, when things happen and they seem faded, it just means you were ready. For them to happen.

Jason Blitman: 43:56

There is a sign from the universe is an excuse, not permission.

Lucas Schaefer: 44:00

Oh, did I write that? Yeah. Okay. That sounds good. Good job, Lucas. Okay. Yeah. It's that in that vein. Right? Um, And I do think that's true. I do think that's true.

Jason Blitman: 44:14

yeah. in my mind, and again, like we don't, I don't wanna get into any details about the book,

Lucas Schaefer: 44:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:19

but if fate is the thing that happens at the Of

Lucas Schaefer: 44:22

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:23

if it's the ending, then Destiny is journey. Think is what, I don't know. I've been thinking a lot about that since reading the book because,

Lucas Schaefer: 44:33

is Okay. I like that. Yeah, I, it's funny because a number of readers have said that this is a theme of the book, which I agree with, but I, it was not one I went in thinking about or feeling strongly about, but I'm thinking about it more now.

Jason Blitman: 44:47

I tend to underline things as I read, and I never know will be interesting when I get to the end of the book. And so then I, as I prep for the conversation, I let you know, go through back through all the things that I've underlined. Something early on in the book is just a conversation about uh. boxing gym being anywhere and everywhere, even if there's not a physical building, A state of mind, it could be a,

Lucas Schaefer: 45:14

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 45:14

anyway, there was something about that and once I finished the book, I was like, oh, that

Lucas Schaefer: 45:21

Yes,

Jason Blitman: 45:22

is what teed us up for the entire

Lucas Schaefer: 45:24

that is true. That, yes. Yeah. And that part was intentional, right? Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 45:29

of course. But in my mind,

Lucas Schaefer: 45:31

No,

Jason Blitman: 45:31

the, that was the fate of it all, and that's where manifestation and fate really

Lucas Schaefer: 45:35

of course.

Jason Blitman: 45:36

maybe accidentally. But,

Lucas Schaefer: 45:38

Yeah. No. I love that.

Jason Blitman: 45:39

Yeah. And you also say you can't create a world that you can't imagine,

Lucas Schaefer: 45:45

That, yes. Some someone's right. A teacher that's Yes. A yeah.

Jason Blitman: 45:50

I think maybe that also ties back to the conversation about you being the person who wrote the

Lucas Schaefer: 45:57

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 45:59

I mentioned, I reached out to Greg, your husband, when I was reading the book, and he said, you have to ask Lucas where the inspiration for David came from.

Lucas Schaefer: 46:08

Okay, d David, let me give a little context to readers. Dave, Nathaniel starts, Nathaniel comes to Austin. He's working for this guy David, who's essentially the activities director at this nursing home. And David's whole thing, he, every summer he has a volunteer work for him. This is how the nursing home works. And it invariably is a boy who is a little bit like Nathaniel, like someone's, it's always a favor for someone. In this case it's his uncle someone on the board of trustees, et cetera. And David tells Nathaniel these really graphic. Stories of his own sexual experiences, which are basically all made up. He, David is this happily married guy, but this is his sort of like midlife not midlife crisis, but this is, the book gets into why he does this. Like this is actually a central question of the book is of the early part of the book, I would say is like why is David behaving in this way? And he's also using Nathaniel's own preconceptions about what it means to be black in regards to sexuality against Nathaniel or he's playing up what Nathaniel perceives from pop culture or from, yeah from his imagination, from his family, whatever. So when I was in high school, I was a bellhop at a hotel and my, I did have someone like this who I worked with who was. Really a fantastic mentor in the ways of hotel telling. But would basically do what David does tell these like really graphic sexual stories, which as a gay teenager, I think if I had a more, like I was with the theater kids and the newspaper kids and the speech team kids, like we were not talking like this. I think maybe if I had an older brother or was just in a different milieu, like it wouldn't have been that shocking to me. And it is like this heavyweight premise, like one of the ways the book started was thinking back like, why. Why was he doing this? And I don't know in his case, if the stories were true or not. And they were often not even stories, like in the book, they're very much stories about what David has done in real life. It was even more like, a woman would be walking by and it would be like, the most elaborate fantasy would be

Jason Blitman: 48:38

he would

Lucas Schaefer: 48:38

relayed to me. I was like 16 and I was in, I like, I don't think he knew I was gay, but maybe he knew I was gay. That was a question. And I was just like what was like, was he just bored? And he was a really, I, someone I really was very kind to me and really looked at for me because it the funny thing about this job was I don't know how I got the job because everyone else at the hotel, this was their job. Because you can make a lot of. You can make good money. I say bellhop, we were really, doorman was the title. And there was more to it than just the bags though that was a big part of it. But I had somehow fallen into this job a boy among men because no one else was a high school kid doing this job at this hotel. And I don't know, I was always just like, what? Why were we having these conversations? And I wasn't like, offended by them or

Jason Blitman: 49:32

it's it is a very specific thing.

Lucas Schaefer: 49:34

it's very specific. I was very impression and I was just always so like befuddled and like never knew like what to say. And I was also, I will say to my credit, I knew enough to not try to I. Have my own made up sexual adventures or like even say anything about, anything. I was basically just this silent partner, which probably for him was part of the fun of it. But I'm just seeing my expressions.

Jason Blitman: 50:02

to him?

Lucas Schaefer: 50:03

I don't, he,

Jason Blitman: 50:04

him? Do you know his name?

Lucas Schaefer: 50:06

I do, I have never been able to find basically any, it's so funny. This is also, I went to, I was born in 1982, and this is also true actually with my teachers from like middle and high school. Like they're all people who are like, not on the internet.

Jason Blitman: 50:25

Weird.

Lucas Schaefer: 50:25

Some are, I have some like Instagram friends who are like old teachers, but especially elementary school, right? This is these are like pre-internet people. And I feel like this about some of the people I've worked with in, in more high school too, where like they might be like in the White pages, right? But not there's not a, a Googleable thing about them. And I'm happy. The story has gone so far from th that initial.

Jason Blitman: 50:54

no. Of course. I would just be so curious, where is he now? Is he alive? Does he remember having these conversations with impressionable young people?

Lucas Schaefer: 51:03

I will say having been around more people and grown older, I think I do, I'd be curious to talk to some of my high school friends who were like a little more rough and tumble because I have a feeling that they probably. Would have not found this even remotely eyebrow raising. But to me, I was just like this sheltered. Like it was just not, I was just not ready.

Jason Blitman: 51:28

don't mean to be like wagging a finger at this guy. You know what I mean? It's, I'm not,

Lucas Schaefer: 51:34

No, no.

Jason Blitman: 51:34

very normal for that time especially.

Lucas Schaefer: 51:38

Yeah. No one was heard in the creation of these stories. But yeah, so that's where that dynamic came from. And just,

Jason Blitman: 51:46

that. How long were you at the hotel

Lucas Schaefer: 51:48

I worked there for a bunch of summers in high school and college and some different people came and went, but

Jason Blitman: 51:54

theater camp? I,

Lucas Schaefer: 51:56

oh yes. Yes. That was yours. Yours had passed. Yours had passed.

Jason Blitman: 52:01

okay, so you weren't doing that when you were in high school. I'm sort of disappointed and maybe that's why you like, didn't play Harold

Lucas Schaefer: 52:07

Oh, I can tell you the end of my theater career if you wanna know. W what? It's actually really fun. I will say in defense, I'm going to, it's gonna sound like I'm throwing my dad under the bus here, but I'm I in his defense, I, by the time of the end of 10th grade, was really like a newspaper kid and had like outgrown theater a little bit for me. But I was cast in 10th grade in a chorus line, which we did in that was the high school spring musical, which appears in the book. And I was Mike who sings the song. I Can Do That, which is like a tap dancing number, which I did not know how to do. And I was not especially coordinated and I was so proud by the time of the show at how good my dance, I was like, man, like maybe I can be a professional dancer. Like I'm so good. And my dad saw me after the first show and he said, oh man, that was really great. He was like, you did so well. I know the dancing was like, you'd worked so hard on it. He was like, in the kick line, you were only like a beat behind. And I was like, oh. So that, I think that was, I think I maybe did one more. I I did taming of the Shrew after that, and then I became like an editor at the newspaper and that, that was my thing.

Jason Blitman: 53:29

Okay. You were only one beat behind everyone was on the one and you were on the two

Lucas Schaefer: 53:33

Yes. And I actually I have a kick line joke in the book as well

Jason Blitman: 53:37

So funny. Oh, man. That's okay. Dad, you weren't throwing him under the bus.

Lucas Schaefer: 53:41

No. It, no. He was not, no, it wasn't intentionally mean. It was just, I, it's always stuck with me.

Jason Blitman: 53:47

Oh,

Lucas Schaefer: 53:47

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 53:48

called drama.

Lucas Schaefer: 53:49

Oh yeah. Yeah. I somehow worked through it, but

Jason Blitman: 53:52

I love it. Lucas Schaeffer, thank you so much for being here.

Lucas Schaefer: 53:56

thank you. Thank you for having me. Thanks for talking about the slip.

Jason Blitman: 53:59

of the Slip by Luca Schafer out now. Great

Lucas Schaefer: 54:03

I,

Jason Blitman: 54:03

term that appears in the book three times. Find them and call me out. I was devouring it, that's what was going on.

Lucas Schaefer: 54:11

No, thank you very much for having me. I, this was fun,

Jason Blitman: 54:14

my pleasure and happy pride.

Lucas Schaefer: 54:16

happy pride. I.

Harper!: 54:18

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 54:23

It is June right now. So happy pride. That's, this is what I'm doing,

Mike Curato: 54:27

what's, oh, it's June. Oh my

Jason Blitman: 54:28

right? Yes. It's June.

Mike Curato: 54:31

I wish it felt like June.

Jason Blitman: 54:32

I know. I wish, I felt like June. Emotionally.

Mike Curato: 54:37

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 54:38

Mike Rado, I'm very happy that you're here. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today. I,

Mike Curato: 54:42

oh, thanks so much for having me.

Jason Blitman: 54:45

I love that we are giving like complimentary colored sweaters.

Mike Curato: 54:51

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 54:53

and the yellow. Uhhuh. Uhhuh.

Mike Curato: 54:55

Yeah. I love a duo tone,

Jason Blitman: 54:56

Yeah. Exactly. We would look good standing next to each other right now if we were in real life. How are you today?

Mike Curato: 55:04

I'm good. To get it done,

Jason Blitman: 55:05

uhhuh? Uhhuh. Uhhuh.

Mike Curato: 55:07

the list.

Jason Blitman: 55:08

Whatever it is, we are trying to get it done

Mike Curato: 55:11

always a list.

Jason Blitman: 55:12

right. It always needs to get done.

Mike Curato: 55:14

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 55:16

What I'm, where are you? This is I'm so ex This the little background that you're giving me, I am ecstatic about,

Mike Curato: 55:25

my gracious drawing room as Patsy Stone would say.

Jason Blitman: 55:28

is it actually, oh no, it's,

Mike Curato: 55:29

not like the

Jason Blitman: 55:30

No.

Mike Curato: 55:30

not like where I draw,

Jason Blitman: 55:32

of course. You

Mike Curato: 55:32

I

Jason Blitman: 55:33

a person who does graphic novels, this is very confusing,

Mike Curato: 55:36

Every room is the drawing

Jason Blitman: 55:37

right?

Mike Curato: 55:38

But yeah I do sit on this couch from time to time and do my

Jason Blitman: 55:42

And draw and doodle.

Mike Curato: 55:44

Is the, the sun.

Jason Blitman: 55:47

See if, in order to fully understand, it has to be said in a very specific way, the drawing room.

Mike Curato: 55:53

you have to draw

Jason Blitman: 55:55

Exactly. Yes. Thank you for the clarification. Very confusing, but I'm loving. Is it gingham? Is it stripes? Is it's hard to tell, but the drapes are.

Mike Curato: 56:10

not even showing. I'm like, it's it's not quite either. It's,

Jason Blitman: 56:14

It's like a little bick. Gingham, a little bit stripe. We have colorful pillows.

Mike Curato: 56:19

Yeah. Category

Jason Blitman: 56:21

like,

Mike Curato: 56:21

ikea.

Jason Blitman: 56:22

Honestly, listen, shout out to ikea. They should be a sponsor of this podcast. I am. Their stuff has been elevated.

Mike Curato: 56:32

There are those things where it's like. I could tell someone this is DWR and they would believe me.

Jason Blitman: 56:38

Yes,

Mike Curato: 56:39

There, there are a few bangers.

Jason Blitman: 56:41

our bed frame is IKEA and I would buy it again.

Mike Curato: 56:45

okay. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 56:46

It's beautiful. I'm a big fan. I know. Shout out. Who would've thought? And guess what? I built it myself.

Mike Curato: 56:55

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 56:57

So well. It looks good and I feel good about myself,

Mike Curato: 57:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 57:01

right?

Mike Curato: 57:02

do have a drawer for full of Allen wrenches from every single

Jason Blitman: 57:05

know this is true. This is true. I don't ever, you, I don't think I've ever needed an Allen wrench besides putting together IKEA furniture. Have you? Does that drawer come in handy?

Mike Curato: 57:20

Honestly, yes. I ha it has come in handy. I don't know I just. I love an Alan,

Jason Blitman: 57:25

you love fixing things, tightening things piecing things together, emotionally, metaphorically, literally. Got it. This explains so much about you,

Mike Curato: 57:38

yes. I'm so put together in an IKEA assembly kind of way.

Jason Blitman: 57:43

Very right. Practically falling apart basically.

Mike Curato: 57:47

Yeah. Yeah. A little bit falling apart. Needs some tightening time to time.

Jason Blitman: 57:51

Fragile.

Mike Curato: 57:53

the press board here and

Jason Blitman: 57:54

Okay. We're really leaning into this metaphor. I'm all for it. Mike Curato as my guest gay reader today, I have to know what are you reading?

Mike Curato: 58:04

what am I reading? Okay. I have a sort of like little list of different genres since I, I write for children's and adults. I wanna plug this middle grade novel inverse called the Poetry of Car Mechanics by Heidi EY Stempel.

Jason Blitman: 58:23

Oh my God, so much.

Mike Curato: 58:26

I know. I know, but honestly, like this is about a gentle boy. This is about a boy with feelings who's like dealing with all of the, like disasters in his life through poetry and birds. And I don't wanna assume like people's identities, but actually no, this is a straight boy. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 58:49

Oh great.

Mike Curato: 58:51

at the very least, bisexual or what? A pansexual person. But

Jason Blitman: 58:54

Sure.

Mike Curato: 58:55

he's in, he's into a girl.

Jason Blitman: 58:56

Presents as straight in the book. Yeah.

Mike Curato: 59:00

But he loves

Jason Blitman: 59:01

all been there.

Mike Curato: 59:02

I no, but it's really beautiful, very powerful. Stuff that's middle grade.

Jason Blitman: 59:08

The poetry of car mechanics. I texted my husband yesterday when I got in the car and I said, Hey, FYI, the an alert keeps coming on saying Check the coolant. I don't know. I was like, I don't know how to do that. You deal with that so I need my car mechanics, right? Yeah. She's thirsty. It's a warm, yeah. Yeah.

Mike Curato: 59:26

Okay then my YA recommendation is my government means to kill me. Rasheed Newson which is it's fiction, but I kept thinking it was autobiographical. I'm like, wow, this guy's really led an interesting life. He knows everyone in the, in like in the

Jason Blitman: 59:48

In history,

Mike Curato: 59:48

New York City. But I was like no. It's fiction. It's fiction. But it's like

Jason Blitman: 59:51

uh.

Mike Curato: 59:52

Perspective and like basically this guy lives through the AIDS Crisis and Rent Strikes and is friends with all these notable names from Gay Hurst Street in the eighties. I loved it. It was a really fun read.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:06

It is terrific.

Mike Curato: 1:00:07

Yes. And then for adult, I have two res I just finished reading the editor by Steven Rowley, who's best known for the gun. Which I also love. and it was like a departure from the gunk in a lot of ways, but like still very gay and it. Jackie o is a supporting character,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:30

Mm-hmm.

Mike Curato: 1:00:31

Oasis, as he's corrected in the book. It's yes. About like his relationship. Like the main character is an author who finally gets his big break and he finds out, like the editor who's acquiring his book is Jacqueline Onassis and loses his mind. And yes, the book is a bit about their relationship, but it's more about the relationship he has with his mother and his family.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:54

You know that's a memoir. I'm kidding.

Mike Curato: 1:00:57

yes. I totally knew that.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:00

Not a memoir. Not a memoir.

Mike Curato: 1:01:02

you're playing with me. You know how gullible I am. Like literally, I don't, I know what my deal was with my government means to kill me. It's like I know the author's name and it's not the main character's

Jason Blitman: 1:01:12

Right.

Mike Curato: 1:01:13

What is my problem? And I'm like. Anyway yes, so that's one that's my

Jason Blitman: 1:01:18

One of your adult picks.

Mike Curato: 1:01:20

then I also read I, I love a murder mystery. And so I really this was like cheeky fun dial A for aunties,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:29

Oh, sure.

Mike Curato: 1:01:30

by Jesse q Santo and it's like about this. The twist is right, like this woman, she's like first generation Indonesian and she accidentally murders. A date that, like her mother set her up on like a blind date, she accidentally murders him. And so the book isn't necessarily, it's not about finding out who the murderer is, it's about her Indonesian aunties trying to help her cover up the

Jason Blitman: 1:02:00

Oh my God,

Mike Curato: 1:02:00

hilarity ensues. So

Jason Blitman: 1:02:02

that's so fun.

Mike Curato: 1:02:04

a, it's, and at first I was like. Huh. Okay. I dunno. Let's see how this goes. And then I was like, so invested and like laughing. I think it's very funny. I listened to the audiobook,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:14

Oh,

Mike Curato: 1:02:14

like lots of

Jason Blitman: 1:02:15

a full performance.

Mike Curato: 1:02:17

a full performance. Yes. So yeah,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:20

Love.

Mike Curato: 1:02:21

of my.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:22

What a good list.

Mike Curato: 1:02:24

that's my recent reading journey.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:26

And.

Mike Curato: 1:02:26

I haven't read it yet, but I have to plug a graphic novel because duh.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:30

Please.

Mike Curato: 1:02:31

and I'm a huge Molly Knox Oag fan. I love Witch Boy. And so I just

Jason Blitman: 1:02:35

Oh.

Mike Curato: 1:02:36

It's called The Deep Dark. It's a young adult and apparently a Prince Honor book I'm excited to read that.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:44

Amazing. Such a good list. Steven Rowley's. He knows this. So I don't feel bad saying this publicly, but I hate the word gunk. I hate, and this is pride and so this is very homophobic of me and I'm so sorry, but I hate Gaber Hood. We are living through homophobic time. The name Gaber, I can't gun, I can't, just taking a G and adding it to the front of a word does not make it gay. And that is so upsetting to me. However.

Mike Curato: 1:03:17

it feel like g like gag, like

Jason Blitman: 1:03:19

First of all, it's the word gun girl has the word gunk in it, which is gross. Gabe Hood, I can't, I don't even know where to begin, but a Port Manto that works for me, GA, Asians,

Mike Curato: 1:03:34

Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:37

I'm literally dead serious though.

Mike Curato: 1:03:39

okay. Yeah, I, it's right there. It's right there.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:43

Do you know why it works? Because both words are intact.

Mike Curato: 1:03:48

Yes. Yes. It's

Jason Blitman: 1:03:50

Is intact, and Asians is intact. It is seamless.

Mike Curato: 1:03:54

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:55

I was trying to

Mike Curato: 1:03:58

Oh, my friend came up with Vess.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:00

The

Mike Curato: 1:04:00

we think they came up with it, but Vess,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:03

Asians, yes, you are so inclusive.

Mike Curato: 1:04:07

sequel.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:08

Yes. It's so funny, I was thinking like this morning, I was like, what are other examples of two words that could fit seamlessly together? And literally, I could only think of one thing and it is the most random, bizarre how my brain got here. I will never know, but I feel like I have to say it out loud. De Exte.

Mike Curato: 1:04:37

Wow. Wow. You were doing a lot there. Like you did that.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:43

I don't know what was happening. I'm

Mike Curato: 1:04:45

from?

Jason Blitman: 1:04:46

probably the over caffeine, over my over caffeinated brain

Mike Curato: 1:04:50

were you doing when that came to you

Jason Blitman: 1:04:53

walking around my house preparing for this. I think maybe I was like doing the things right, putting on deodorant and do, I was just like moving and I was like, what are the,

Mike Curato: 1:05:07

with Latin and Sanskrit and just like you You're folding laundry.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:11

I don't know. It is the strangest thing. Why did I come up with Deus X, Mina Mustang? I don't know, but I'm gonna run with it

Mike Curato: 1:05:23

I, it sounds like a good title.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:26

Just like this one. just like Ca Asians?

Mike Curato: 1:05:29

it. You are not

Jason Blitman: 1:05:30

No.

Mike Curato: 1:05:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:32

For our listeners. Wait, warn me.

Mike Curato: 1:05:36

There is the G word in that book.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:40

Oh, I know. I've read it.

Mike Curato: 1:05:41

is in, not ga obviously Ga Gaber

Jason Blitman: 1:05:43

Gaber Hood. I know. But the, but when I tell people what the book is called, it's not gonna make me gag.

Mike Curato: 1:05:51

I'm glad. Unless you're like, I'm gagging then

Jason Blitman: 1:05:54

No, I'm gagging.'cause the book is so great and the title is successful.

Mike Curato: 1:06:01

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:02

For the people, for the listeners, for the viewers who are looking at your gingham or striped shit curtains, what it tell us about your book? What's your elevator pitch?

Mike Curato: 1:06:14

Yeah. Okay. I. First and foremost gay Asian representation, kind of something I need more of. We rarely see gay Asian centered stories, let alone like a gay Asian full cast of kind of media. They're there, right? And people are like, oh you've got Fire Island. It's yeah, we've got that one movie. Thank you. So anyway, there, there was just like a lot of things that I've experienced in my life that I needed to get out. And this is a story about chosen family, really Everything down to the bare basics. When I was when I graduated college, I moved to Seattle and I met. My first gay friends, and a lot of them happened to be Asian as well, and they took me, under their wing and showed me the ropes and they became my little, chosen gay family. And I didn't realize how special that was until later in life, but I did I did see right away was like, oh my God, i've never been seen or understood in this completely three dimensional way before in my entire life. I had Asian friends growing up and like I had met gay people in college and had a handful of gay friends, but this was a completely new experience where I was like, wow. We have a sort of shorthand. Where I don't have to explain a lot to these people, they Get it. And yeah and along with that, we were all like really different people just like the characters in my book, right? Because there are lots of stereotypes flying around and I play around with some of those stereotypes. you know, And each character you might think is a, on paper like a stereotype. And then we start to, find the layers, slicing that layer cake, And, leave no crumbs. But yeah, basically one of the characters is a bit parallel with my own story. AJ moves to Seattle. He gets taken in by this group of friends who call themselves the Boy Luck Club. Huge Amy Tan fan. And the Joy Luck Club was definitely an inspiration for getting started. Like I really paid attention to how she structured the Joy Luck Club. And I love when it's like different stories woven together, like different people's stories, woven into one tapestry. So that was the goal with this as well.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:40

Love it made me very nostalgic for. I think in college I had a very robust group of gay friends and then I moved to New York and I also had plenty of gay friends, but I had, but I would say most of my close friends were straight. And then post Covid, I'm refinding my queer community. And the book was such a good reminder of the importance of that.

Mike Curato: 1:09:06

Yes. I think that's what's so present right now, Staying connected, staying in community taking care of each other.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:14

Yeah.

Mike Curato: 1:09:15

and that's the lesson, right? Without giving away spoilers

Jason Blitman: 1:09:19

No, no spoilers.

Mike Curato: 1:09:21

It's like there. A close unit and then different circumstances tear them apart. The

Jason Blitman: 1:09:27

Yeah.

Mike Curato: 1:09:28

of tears them apart and it's really on them to rebuild and make that connection stronger and

Jason Blitman: 1:09:35

In an

Mike Curato: 1:09:36

what I wanna see more of in the world.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:38

amen. And to springboard off of that, my new favorite question that I've been asking all of my guest gay readers to an, to amplify the people in their lives. I have to know if you were to die tomorrow. Who are you calling to clear the search history on your computer?

Mike Curato: 1:10:00

100% my sister,

Jason Blitman: 1:10:02

Yes.

Mike Curato: 1:10:04

I know that they will have my back and they're also very thorough and will clearly clack make sure all that is

Jason Blitman: 1:10:14

We love a thorough sister.

Mike Curato: 1:10:16

She knows where all the bodies are buried. Like literally the people we have murdered together,

Jason Blitman: 1:10:22

This is what makes a good sister. What's her name?

Mike Curato: 1:10:24

her online name is Katrina Reese.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:27

Great. I'm only, I only wanna just shout out Katrina Reese. Like I just want to Yes. We love, I.

Mike Curato: 1:10:34

And the amazing thing is we just recorded a full cast audiobook for gays Katrina is one of the, one of the cast members.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:44

Oh my God.

Mike Curato: 1:10:45

yeah, she does a lot of the minor female vocal

Jason Blitman: 1:10:48

So fun. That's so cool. Shout out to her. We love, we, we love those who we could trust with the deeds and the bodies. Mike Curato, thank you so much for being here.

Mike Curato: 1:11:04

Oh, thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:06

My guest, gay reader, everyone go by GA Asians. It's the best Port Manto. And the book gagged me, but the title did not. And happy pride.

Mike Curato: 1:11:18

Happy pride, everyone.

1:11:22

Thank you Lucas and Mike. You can get your copies of the slip and gazen wherever you get your books. See you later this week everyone. Bye.