0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host Jason Blitman, and it is a very sad day in the world of books as we lost Edmund White, whom the New York Times aptly called a pioneer of gay literature. I. If you're not familiar with him, his work carved out space for queer lives on the page with honesty, wit, and unflinching intimacy. Just three weeks ago, I had the honor of recording an episode of Gazed Reading with him where he talks about his latest memoir, the Loves of My Life, and reflected on his legacy. This was supposed to come out in a few weeks, but as a special tribute, I'll be airing the episode tomorrow on a happier note On today's episode, I talk to debut author Austin Taylor about her new novel, which is being compared to tomorrow, and Tomorrow and tomorrow called Notes on Infinity. And my guest gay reader is Nicola Dinan, who talks to me about what she's been reading as well as her book disappoint me. Make sure to check out the Gaze reading Instagram for a special announcement about this book. Both Austin and Nicolas bios are in the show notes. Okay, so we just talked about Instagram. You could also watch this episode over on YouTube. Gaze Reading is on Blue Sky. We're all over the place. And make sure that you're subscribing wherever you get your podcasts so that you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. And if you haven't heard yet, there's a Gaze Reading Pride Guide on. Bunch of fabulous books to buy over on the Substack. It's free, and if you're so inclined, you can get a paid subscription for less than the price of a coffee and support this gay indie podcast. There's gays reading merch. I just got my gay reader sweatshirt in the mail. There are a is for Ally t-shirts, a whole bunch of super fun stuff. Make sure to check that out. The links do all of the things you could find in the show notes, but also in the link tree on Instagram. And now please enjoy my conversations with Austin Taylor and Nicola Dinan.

Jason Blitman: 2:31

there are so many things I am looking forward to talking to you about including the book, but you're, wait, where is it? Your bio.

Austin Taylor: 2:39

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 2:41

Like literally it is on the inside cover of the galley. So

Austin Taylor: 2:43

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 2:44

at the very beginning.

Austin Taylor: 2:45

All right.

Jason Blitman: 2:45

even said the title. It's notes on Infinity. Graduate of Harvard

Austin Taylor: 2:49

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 2:50

Degrees in Chemistry and English, a public speaking coach, a private pilot, a main guide.

Austin Taylor: 3:02

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 3:03

A bassist. I see a bicycle behind you.

Austin Taylor: 3:07

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 3:08

I see a flourishing plant behind you. I see the base. And per Instagram, you're about to go to law school

Austin Taylor: 3:17

I am.

Jason Blitman: 3:18

school.

Austin Taylor: 3:18

Yeah. I'm about to law school.

Jason Blitman: 3:20

Girl,

Austin Taylor: 3:22

Gotta keep busy.

Jason Blitman: 3:23

I am so impressed.

Austin Taylor: 3:25

Oh, thank you.

Jason Blitman: 3:26

How do

Austin Taylor: 3:26

you.

Jason Blitman: 3:27

keep it all straight in your brain? I'm ask, this is I'm asking personally,'cause I have, I just, I need to know

Austin Taylor: 3:34

Uh

Jason Blitman: 3:35

How

Austin Taylor: 3:35

uh,

Jason Blitman: 3:36

Sane?

Austin Taylor: 3:37

no, I think it helps me stay sane. I liked having a lot of things going on. I'm really excited actually to start law school because I'm sure you have heard many writers say this, but writing can be very isolating. And I've now been writing essentially full-time for, I. A little over a year, and I spend a lot of time right here by myself. And like my roommate is fantastic and I'll emerge and she'll know that it's because I'm like starved for socialization and I need her to just sit down with me at the dining table and have some tea and have, a real human instead of just

Jason Blitman: 4:14

spill some

Austin Taylor: 4:15

My it spill some tea. Yeah. She has to spill tea from like the real people that she interacts with every day.'cause I don't interact with anyone.

Jason Blitman: 4:21

right. You're About the outside world.

Austin Taylor: 4:23

exactly. I'm like some, something someone did today that I didn't make up in my head and write down. And I think law school will be awesome because I'll actually have other people know. But in all seriousness, I think that I love to write about. My to write about my experiences is too direct. Like I don't, it's not autobiography, but I like to write from the places that I inhabit. And notes on Infinity, as is a lot about Harvard. And that comes from my time there. And so I'm excited to be going and doing a new thing so that I can write about law school.

Jason Blitman: 4:59

write about it.

Austin Taylor: 5:00

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 5:02

You could

Austin Taylor: 5:02

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 5:03

just do a lot of research.

Austin Taylor: 5:05

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:06

You don't have to actually go and matriculate.

Austin Taylor: 5:09

Oh no, I think it'll be good. I also, I'm like interested in the law,

Jason Blitman: 5:13

want to practice law? Do you want to be a lawyer?

Austin Taylor: 5:17

so I don't know what exactly that will look like. For me I'm really interested in, so before I started writing, I studied chemistry and English and I was really interested in like the interface between science and tech and society. So I was interested in like science policy, bioethics. I had planned to go to law school actually. I was admitted and then deferred for like long story, but for health reasons. And while I was on that health related deferral, I started writing and then, the rest is

Jason Blitman: 5:45

Mm-hmm.

Austin Taylor: 5:46

But I am still really interested in like science and tech and society, which is also reflected in the book.

Jason Blitman: 5:54

Yeah.

Austin Taylor: 5:55

and I. Started writing at the same time chat GBT emerged. And so I'm really interested in generative AI regulation. And so I am hoping to, as an attorney have have a little bit more of a seat at the table as we think about guardrails on generative artificial intelligence to protect art and artists.

Jason Blitman: 6:18

Oh,

Austin Taylor: 6:18

so yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:19

And I imagine because much is new and emerging and changing and evolving. You don't even know what

Austin Taylor: 6:29

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 6:30

is or what your future's gonna look like.'cause you know the space is changing.

Austin Taylor: 6:33

Exactly. For sure. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:35

Oh, that's so cool. My husband has a degree in chemistry from Boston

Austin Taylor: 6:39

Ah, very cool.

Jason Blitman: 6:40

Doesn't work in chemistry. He works in tech and

Austin Taylor: 6:44

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 6:44

says that it was working in a lab that like taught him how to problem solve. Um, So it's always I'm and he has. Threatened going to law school. He's threatened, going to get his MBA.

Austin Taylor: 6:56

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:57

it's so fascinating'cause like has learned to knit and he has done, like he is also a, jack of all trades. And so you talking about all of the things that you do obviously knowing my husband, this doesn't surprise me.

Austin Taylor: 7:12

Yeah

Jason Blitman: 7:12

anyway, it's all very interesting. Okay. This is your first. Podcast for notes on Infinity.

Austin Taylor: 7:19

it's,

Jason Blitman: 7:20

I texted Chris Whitaker earlier today to tell him I was talking to you.

Austin Taylor: 7:25

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:26

said to say hello.

Austin Taylor: 7:28

Uh, He is so nice. He is so.

Jason Blitman: 7:30

he said, I love that book. Say hello for me. I said, I will.

Austin Taylor: 7:34

He's so kind. He like was the first person to, actually, he was the second blurb that came in I think now, I can't remember. But he like was the first person to be in touch with me over Instagram and I was so starstruck. I like didn't know what to say to him. I was like, how do I talk to this person? I love your books. I don't know what to do. You're reading. And then he sent me, it was so kind, so I knew he was reading

Jason Blitman: 8:01

Yeah.

Austin Taylor: 8:02

me like in the middle a passage that he really liked. And was it just like I, it was something just yes, or like exclamation point or something. And I was like,

Jason Blitman: 8:11

I love him so

Austin Taylor: 8:12

I know. It was a moment.

Jason Blitman: 8:14

I love that. He says hello. You have not perfected, although you went to Harvard and you seem like the kind of person who's very prepared. I was gonna say, you've not perfected your elevator pitch for the book yet but now is your time to workshop it.

Austin Taylor: 8:29

Okay. Okay. I think it's okay. I, like I do because I, people ask what the book is about and so I do have to tell'em. So no song Infinity.

Jason Blitman: 8:39

when you're like, at dinner with your family and your What are you working on? You're

Austin Taylor: 8:45

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 8:46

let me tell you.

Austin Taylor: 8:47

If you only knew. Yeah, it is. That is exactly what it's, I was like very recently at, sorry, side sidetrack. I was very recently at a, at a Ruby Tuesday with all of my aunts. I'm from Central Main, so like in the middle of nowhere. And they they're always really excited to get all the updates and I brought them. And they were so excited. It was adorable.

Jason Blitman: 9:11

That. Did everybody get the salad bar? I just have this image of gonna Ruby Tuesday with my grandmother and like we

Austin Taylor: 9:16

Huh

Jason Blitman: 9:16

the salad bar. All, that's, anyway, that's all.

Austin Taylor: 9:20

Yes. Yes. Anyway, so yes. Elevator pitch. Notes on Infinity is about two young Harvard students in chemistry. Jack and Zoe, who are fierce competitors, turned collaborators and they develop a new kind of anti-aging drug and they drop out form a startup and achieve dazzling success. The book is about ambition and betrayal and the things that we do for the people we love.

Jason Blitman: 10:28

Love. The very, very beginning of the book, okay. Not actually the very, very beginning of the book. The first chapter, And then there's a first chapter. The first chapter of the book says there are two types of students in the first semester of organic chemistry. Those who arrive 10 minutes early and sit primly in the second row notebook out in case the professor. Lets go of any wisdom before the clock strikes the hour, and those who jog in four minutes late, unshared and unshaven with no bag and no notebook and slump into a seat at the end of the aisle. Which one are you?

Austin Taylor: 11:01

Oh, I am.

Jason Blitman: 11:03

I love

Austin Taylor: 11:03

I,

Jason Blitman: 11:04

you like didn't know where I was going with

Austin Taylor: 11:05

No I didn't un unfortunately, I am the first, but I don't like to sit in the front, so I will be sitting in the back, but I will be there really early and I will have my notebook and I'll have done all the reading. Yeah, I know. I'm embarrassed to say,

Jason Blitman: 11:21

You do, you did go to Harvard. It's fine. I know. Were you one of those people who was like, I went to school in Cambridge?

Austin Taylor: 11:28

I've gotten called out on that so many times recently I've been like doing the law school interview rounds and they, people are like, oh, like, where you meet other admins or you meet other people who are interviewing and they're like, oh, like, where'd you go to school? And I, yeah, I reflexively do the oh, the Boston area just makes me sound like more of a jerk,

Jason Blitman: 11:46

Yeah. Where do you,

Austin Taylor: 11:47

but it's okay.

Jason Blitman: 11:48

Is it, I don't, not shame there. It can't be shame, but is it like a weird pride thing? Is it privilege? Is it,

Austin Taylor: 11:55

I think it's so it's interesting because people's reactions, so when I go home again, central Maine, like rural people have weird reactions anywhere from oh, you must be a genius to oh, that's such a waste of money, to oh, like that's the seat of, like liberal demon hood or whatever. And so on that side of things, like that's why yeah, all the above. But then with people, not at home, I think it's because I, like you don't wanna seem like you're throwing it in someone's face. And so then you try to not, but that's just as bad,

Jason Blitman: 12:28

Yeah I'm, I am because I just had a Harvard Business School professor on, and we talk a little bit about not saying Harvard.

Austin Taylor: 12:42

The H word.

Jason Blitman: 12:42

She talks about being an HBS professor and I'm like, I have a degree in theater, so it couldn't be farther away from HBS. So I'd

Austin Taylor: 12:50

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 12:51

fascinating.

Austin Taylor: 12:52

Also, everything at Harvard is acronyms, so like

Jason Blitman: 12:55

oh,

Austin Taylor: 12:55

we, they, we speak in acronyms all the time, which I think is by nature, exclusionary, like it's, you're creating this inner language that other people don't understand, but which is something that, the book tries to grapple with that sort of thing a little bit. I think.

Jason Blitman: 13:11

no, the the book, obviously there's grapples with a lot of things. Among them is, a female professor wanting to

Austin Taylor: 13:19

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 13:20

Students, and that feels like cheating. I. For the student.

Austin Taylor: 13:24

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 13:24

wait a minute, am I actually who you want to be mentoring? Or are you only mentoring me because, I'm a woman? There's so much about the idea of science being tied up in maleness, and I think there's a line in the book that says something like, the character of the scientist is inherently male, Far more articulate than that, but something conceptually,

Austin Taylor: 13:44

thank you.

Jason Blitman: 13:45

how did. How does, what does it mean to be a woman in science for you?

Austin Taylor: 13:51

Yeah. Wow.

Jason Blitman: 13:54

Let me Basic, simple question, direct, succinct question.

Austin Taylor: 13:59

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 14:00

could have an entire hour long conversation about that.

Austin Taylor: 14:02

for sure. Yeah, so I think so first of all, I think in the past I don't even know, 20, 30 years, it has gotten just immeasurably better, like the change. I just from knowing, female mentors and professors who came up through. 10, 15, 20 years ago. I just think that we are so lucky to have made so much progress. I'm lucky that they did the work to make that much progress. And so it's less that I said this the other day to someone, it's less that like women aren't invited to the party anymore. It's like women are now invited, but there are still people at the party who. Were there before women got invited, and they're not crazy about the change. And so I think that there's still can be some like tension. And then also I think, I don't think I know women are still a minority in these spaces and that's just a fact, right? And that changes the way that the spaces feel. And then also as I, as you mentioned, and I talk about quite a bit in the book. I think that the culture of science is just super male. Like it's very much the drag old, like work all the time. No social skills, like you don't do anything but you're science'cause you're a genius and you are allowed to do that. And I think that's just not something that women have to. Be t uh, like socially and they have to look a certain way and they have to in general act a certain way and they don't get to go be the mad scientist off like in the lab all day and all night. And so it's just, it's a culture thing. It's funny what my roommate and I were talking the other day about the way that PI principal investigators, so people that run labs at like Harvard or MT or whatever dress and how most male PIs are like super casual and. Most female PIs, at least in my experience, are like very well dressed and very well put together. And that's just like a silly little example. But I do think that it is illustrative of there is a different set of expectations for women as opposed to men.

Jason Blitman: 16:11

a silly example at all. No, I mean it's it is a very it is a day-to-day sort of

Austin Taylor: 16:17

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:17

right?

Austin Taylor: 16:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:18

think about what we're gonna wear when we.

Austin Taylor: 16:21

Right.

Jason Blitman: 16:21

Our day?

Austin Taylor: 16:22

Unless you don't have to. Unless you don't have to think about it.'cause no one cares.

Jason Blitman: 16:25

We all have to put some clothes on

Austin Taylor: 16:26

Yeah, no. True. True.

Jason Blitman: 16:28

and so some people have to think about it and some people don't,

Austin Taylor: 16:31

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So

Jason Blitman: 16:33

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Austin Taylor: 16:35

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:36

Is there anything that, like a, to a lay person, you would be like, I would love every person to know this about. A lab about being a woman in a lab or about, do you know what I mean? Like I don't, it's such a random question, but getting a little bit of insight to your experience. And I don't mean to it at all.

Austin Taylor: 16:59

So I guess a sort of anecdote. Maybe that's helpful. So I was really lucky in my lab work, so I did work in a lab at Harvard. I did heterogeneous, catalysis. Not that means anything to anyone.

Jason Blitman: 17:12

Means literally nothing.

Austin Taylor: 17:14

that's fine. I was really lucky. I worked for a incredible female professor and pi who actually, Cynthia Friend, who actually was the first full female full professor of chemistry at Harvard. She is. Amazing scientist, amazing teacher, amazing mentor. I look up to her a lot. And so I guess one, one like tidbit of that is that my pi, so like one as it were generation removed was the first full professor of chemistry at Harvard. So it just has not been that long I think is the takeaway point there. And then,

Jason Blitman: 17:49

that's like exactly.

Austin Taylor: 17:51

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:51

I, and I don't wanna say that's what I was hoping for. That's such so ridiculous. But that was absolutely, I assumed there was something like

Austin Taylor: 17:58

Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess second point on that is that for that reason, I think I had a great experience. I had lots of women mentors, Like postdocs and PhD students who were women in the lab, like it was. It didn't feel like a gender issue at all for me. But one of my close friends is did work in a lab in which she was the only woman period. Like she was the, she was an undergrad, but there were no women PhD students and no women postdocs in the PI was a man. And so there was this incredible photo. She's it wasn't a big deal, but there's this incredible photo of her, of the lab and it's 20 men.

Jason Blitman: 18:36

Wow.

Austin Taylor: 18:37

that also is still a thing.

Jason Blitman: 18:39

Yeah.

Austin Taylor: 18:40

so,

Jason Blitman: 18:41

Ish a common number too? Is that the size of a lab?

Austin Taylor: 18:44

oh, it totally varies. Some labs are like, some labs are like five people. Some labs are like 40 people. It depends on how much work is being done, how much funding is getting drawn in. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 18:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Austin Taylor: 18:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 18:56

Speaking of what you're doing in no sound, infinity,

Austin Taylor: 19:00

Very nice. Is it pretty? I love the cover

Jason Blitman: 19:04

I know they, as you said in your elevator pitch they come up with an anti-aging drug. And in turn there's a lot of talk about death And what mortality and aging means. And there's something very interesting about the concept of death being everybody's thing. That pops up in the book. And how nature is just trying to kill everybody every day. What was that like? Did writing the book just give you an existential crisis every day?

Austin Taylor: 19:31

I maybe would put it like maybe I was already having an existential crisis.

Jason Blitman: 19:35

Fair?

Austin Taylor: 19:36

I was just writing about it.

Jason Blitman: 19:37

an existential crisis?

Austin Taylor: 19:39

working through something. Yeah, I don't need therapy. I just write I don't know. But did the book give me an existential crisis? I don't think a book gave me an existential crisis for that reason. It may be maybe for other reasons, but I think that, everybody thinks a decent amount about dying and death. I have had quite a few family members, like un unluckily or I guess luckily that I have a big extended family who I'm very close to past, like in the past, I don't know, 5, 5, 10 years. And so I've thought a lot about death like everybody else. And then also I think that it's. Becoming more and more of a thing in the science space, this sort of line of longevity research, the science space and the pseudoscience space. So like this line of longevity research and then also of like longevity behavior that like we should, things you should be like, supplements you should be taking or exercise you should be doing or whatever. So I was really interested in it in that sense. But yeah, no I think I only had a normal amount of existential crisis at the.

Jason Blitman: 21:13

Got it. Totally fully understand. Did it, did writing the book reframe your understanding or your feelings about mortality?

Austin Taylor: 21:24

One of the things that I was thinking about a lot as I was writing was I was interested in writing about a sort of quest for immortality because it's very old story and I wanted to. Play with a very old story, with a very new framework or new setting. So like biotech uh, is kind of perhaps as shiny and modern as you can get. And then this very old, Gilgamesh or like Nicholas Lamel like philosopher stone type thing right? Is very ancient, very feels very mythological. And so I was really interested in exploring that, but then I was also really interested in it because I wanted to think about the different ways that we pursue immortality. One of those in the book is obviously literally like we're trying to live forever. But the other is through legacy, right? Like when you are a scientist and you discover something that changes the way we understand. Biology, particularly like human biology. You've, you've changed the world. Like you've changed the course of humanity and that is also a form of immortality and something that I think at least one of the characters in the book, I won't uh, you're very antis, spoiler. I won't. Name names. At least one of the characters in the book is very attached to that idea of having changed the world and having that kind of immortality. And so I don't know, it like, did it change? Of course it changed the way I thought about mortality because I spent so much time like thinking about kind of these interwoven, like living forever literally versus living forever through your legacy versus et cetera, et cetera. Have a punchy like, and now I. I'm okay with dying but I did think a lot about it.

Jason Blitman: 23:09

have been nice?

Austin Taylor: 23:10

Yeah, that would've been great. That would've been great, but I did not expect that to happen,

Jason Blitman: 23:14

yeah, that's fair. Honestly, when our, if our expectations are met, that's all that really matters. And you were, that was not the thought. What would you want your legacy to be?

Austin Taylor: 23:25

Oh gosh. It's funny, I, so I like write this character who's really obsessed with legacy, but I don't, I care a lot more about people who are alive when I'm alive. Like I care a lot more about impacting people if who are in front of me than I do about like down the line. Like having, so

Jason Blitman: 23:43

you wanna know you're having an impact on them.

Austin Taylor: 23:45

Yeah. That makes it sound really selfish, but I don't know. I just, I have no, I don't think that so obviously I'm trying, I'm a writer. I'm like trying to be a writer. I really want to reach people with my work. I really want my work to affect people in some way. But I have no it has never even crossed my mind that like people will keep reading my stuff after I'm dead. Like I will be lucky if people are still reading notes on Infinity in three years. So

Jason Blitman: 24:13

that's

Austin Taylor: 24:13

and that will be awesome.

Jason Blitman: 24:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Austin Taylor: 24:16

So.

Jason Blitman: 24:17

No I, I appreciate that mentality. I think I was just having a conversation with an author earlier today about, about living in the present, And I think that is a, the nucleus

Austin Taylor: 24:30

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:31

that, right?

Austin Taylor: 24:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:32

you want, you just want people to read your work

Austin Taylor: 24:34

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:34

Hopefully that's while you're alive, so that they could

Austin Taylor: 24:36

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:37

it is.

Austin Taylor: 24:38

Yeah, because that is all I, please validate me. That's really what this is about.

Jason Blitman: 24:45

Exactly. it had me thinking a lot about mortality, reading the book and just thinking about, without an end, what would we be,

Austin Taylor: 24:53

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 24:53

And is mortality. The defining variable of humanity that those are existential questions. They're not,

Austin Taylor: 25:02

Yeah. So it's really interesting. I had this conversation. With a professor. So when I was a sophomore in college, I went and met with this really famous biology professor at Harvard. He was very old and I asked him like, what would you be working on now if you were a young scientist? What do you like essentially, what do you think this sort of next big thing is, as it were?

Jason Blitman: 25:28

interesting question.

Austin Taylor: 25:29

And he said, thank you. And he. I would be trying to figure out what it is that makes us human. And he meant that in the context of crispr, so gene editing, he was really like concerned that now that we can alter what we are biologically, we figure out what it is that we care about and that makes us what we are in order to not. Um, Through. Gene editing and I was like floored by that conversation. And I think that applies to a lot of cutting edge tech right now. Gene editing included, but also like artificial intelligence, also longevity and anti-aging. And that was the idea that I was trying to get out with what, if we don't die anymore are we still human? Are we human in a different way? Are we not human at all? Are we human in the same way? Like maybe it doesn't matter. I don't have any answer to that question. I don't know that we could have an answer to that question unless it happened, but I do think that it is like both interesting and also perhaps important if these kinds of. Drugs are something that we do develop in the future. And I'm, I make, no, I make no statement. I don't work in this space. Like I the science is fiction it's possible.

Jason Blitman: 26:54

Yeah. And it's funny'cause one of my next bullet points to talk to you about is the concept of. What we value Being human. Wrote in parentheses, page 64, and I just turned to it.'cause I was like, is this exactly what we're

Austin Taylor: 27:08

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:09

right

Austin Taylor: 27:09

Uhhuh.

Jason Blitman: 27:09

it is exactly Right now.

Austin Taylor: 27:11

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 27:12

Oh, that's so interesting. But yeah I had me thinking a lot about all of these things.

Austin Taylor: 27:16

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:16

There is something important I want to talk to you about. Jack, the character Doesn't like the film when Harry met Sally.

Austin Taylor: 27:27

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:28

Is that true for you?

Austin Taylor: 27:30

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 27:31

And

Austin Taylor: 27:31

have

Jason Blitman: 27:32

be honest. I wanna hear all the things. This is a safe space I pro. I will not hang up on you

Austin Taylor: 27:37

okay. Okay. Is there anything I should know about your relationship with this?

Jason Blitman: 27:41

No. If this was, you've got mail, we'd have a different conversation. But

Austin Taylor: 27:44

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 27:45

Sally, I'm just very curious about,

Austin Taylor: 27:47

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 27:48

really like you.

Austin Taylor: 27:49

So I that's great. Thank you. I feel really, yeah, I feel really safe. I have a good friend and he and I have a book club actually, except the book club is like very expansive and it includes movies and albums also. And we, I had watched.

Jason Blitman: 28:08

club is that, that's not a book club.

Austin Taylor: 28:09

It started as a book club and then it like became it's a, it's the fun kind. No, he, I had watched Annie Hall and was like, oh, like you gotta watch this movie. And he was like you gotta watch When Harry met Sally. And then of course when I watched, when Harry met Sally, I was like, this is just like Annie Hall, but different. And so anyway, so we have this, but it's like his favorite movie. And so we had this argument about it because here's what I don't like about this film. Can I spoil when Harry Met Sally on this podcast? Okay.

Jason Blitman: 28:37

think, I think you can't because who can spoil the

Austin Taylor: 28:40

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 28:40

Yes, you could share whatever you want about when Harry Mets

Austin Taylor: 28:42

Okay. When, so I love, first of all, I love the movie. Like I loved watching the movie and I have this like star rating for things, for everything for movies and books, et cetera. It's zero stars, one star or two stars. Zero stars is I consume this thing. One star is I thought it was good and I might recommend it to someone. And two stars is it made me like I was like, this is like what art should be. And it's two stars. Like I really loved the movie. However, the scene where they sleep together afterwards, she is like. simpering up at Harry Sally is like, simpering up at Harry. And Harry, there's the iconic still of Harry's like laying in bed, like looking at the ceiling and she's oh, like I love you. I was so angry at that scene because it felt so genuinely out of character for Sally one and two.

Jason Blitman: 29:35

Yeah.

Austin Taylor: 29:36

She knew there was a, there's a whole bit of dialogue about men hate. Like after you have sex, like men don't wanna sleep with like sleep, actually sleep with you and that's your problem is like you don't understand that or whatever. Like they have this conver, I think it's on the plane. They have this conversation and so she knows what he's thinking and she's still all pathetic. Like it infu, it enraged me. And so that's,

Jason Blitman: 30:04

This is so fair.

Austin Taylor: 30:05

so that's my critique of when Harry met Sally.

Jason Blitman: 30:08

Okay.

Austin Taylor: 30:09

but Jack's critique of when Harry met Sally, ha has more to

Jason Blitman: 30:13

critique about her, Jack's critique about

Austin Taylor: 30:15

fair.

Jason Blitman: 30:15

Harry met,

Austin Taylor: 30:16

I think that would, I think uh, there's a reason that movie gets referenced, not spoil.

Jason Blitman: 30:24

My least favorite thing is someone telling me they have strong feelings about something and then not being able to articulate those feelings. So I. Have whatever feelings that you have, and the fact that you were able to share them with me is all that matters, and I thank you for that.

Austin Taylor: 30:41

I hope I was convincing. And.

Jason Blitman: 30:43

it doesn't make any it's so infuriating to watch a character do something that is so out of the realm of what the storyteller has been telling you all

Austin Taylor: 30:53

Yes. Yes. And okay, maybe it's like I, love gets the best of all of it. I don't know. I don't know, but like I was not impressed.

Jason Blitman: 31:02

Interesting. I, it wouldn't surprise me if somebody had a counter argument, so let's, we'll hold space for the counter argument of why Sally maybe that, what she did.

Austin Taylor: 31:15

Yeah. Feel free to like roast me in the comments or however this works.

Jason Blitman: 31:20

Send an email,

Austin Taylor: 31:21

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 31:22

you want it to

Austin Taylor: 31:22

Message me. I'm on Instagram, Austin Taylors, and I would be so happy to argue.

Jason Blitman: 31:30

What's hilarious is I so wish my husband was on this call with us because he studied chemistry but

Austin Taylor: 31:36

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 31:37

when Harry Metz all. So I am, soon as we hang up, I'm gonna pitch this to him and I'm gonna see what he says. I should record his response.

Austin Taylor: 31:45

Please. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 31:46

funny.

Austin Taylor: 31:46

tell me what he says. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 31:49

Were you a too serious kid?

Austin Taylor: 31:53

Too serious. Almost. Definitely.

Jason Blitman: 31:55

That comes up in the book, the concept of being a too serious

Austin Taylor: 31:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think I. My parents read me a lot of Edgar Allen Poe when I was really young, and I think that might've ruined me early.

Jason Blitman: 32:12

my God. Okay. I

Austin Taylor: 32:15

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 32:15

I'm fascinated with death and mortality.

Austin Taylor: 32:18

yeah. No, that's

Jason Blitman: 32:20

okay.

Austin Taylor: 32:20

to be funny, but is also true. No, but I do think I was very serious and very quiet and very introverted and very 10 going on 30. So yeah, think, I think that line is about Zoe being a too serious kid. I think that she gets that from me, as it were, comes by it rightly.

Jason Blitman: 32:40

There are a series of questions that come up in the book about learning about other people. I can't remember if it was the context of being on a date or something. But one of them is how does your mind work? How would you say your mind works?

Austin Taylor: 32:57

I don't know. I wish I could tell you. Well, But I think, I think that's one of those things that you you can't really ever know even about yourself because you have no point of comparison. Like you don't. I can't I can't get inside your head, so I don't know. It might be really weird in here. I don't know.

Jason Blitman: 33:12

like a rubric of like, oh, are you

Austin Taylor: 33:14

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 33:15

Or, oh, are

Austin Taylor: 33:16

right,

Jason Blitman: 33:17

Or,

Austin Taylor: 33:17

right.

Jason Blitman: 33:18

Do you,

Austin Taylor: 33:19

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 33:20

know. Ruminating and overthinking our versions of the same thing. So I think we can start to see what my mind, how my brain

Austin Taylor: 33:26

I, yeah, we're getting somewhere with you.

Jason Blitman: 33:29

Let me overthink about this for a minute.

Austin Taylor: 33:31

No, but I think that line is in the context of yeah, it, it's not a date, but it feels like a date. And I think that when you're falling in love with someone, you you feel like you know how their mind works and maybe you don't.

Jason Blitman: 33:50

Another one of these questions is, what do you believe in?

Austin Taylor: 33:54

Mm-hmm. Are you asking me?

Jason Blitman: 33:58

Yes.

Austin Taylor: 34:00

um, Oh God. Uh,

Jason Blitman: 34:02

Well, And what's so fascinating to me is that that is so broad. Right. It's like

Austin Taylor: 34:09

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:10

Women in science. I'm like, what the hell? Kind of questions am I asking you?

Austin Taylor: 34:14

How am I doing? Like.

Jason Blitman: 34:15

No, you're doing great. It's just, it's so funny'cause I'm usually the one who comes in and I'm like, there's this one random, very specific thing that I want to talk to you about. And meanwhile here I am like this really broad, open-ended topic,

Austin Taylor: 34:28

Run with it.

Jason Blitman: 34:28

run with it. I find it interesting like. As a concept asking someone, what do you

Austin Taylor: 34:32

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:33

in or where do you, where? And I think that could be interpreted in a lot of different ways, right? Like, where are your morals? What is important to you? What do you stand for?

Austin Taylor: 34:45

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:46

that's how I interpret the question. Less so like Claus,

Austin Taylor: 34:52

Right. She's very uh,

Jason Blitman: 34:54

some people might,

Austin Taylor: 34:55

Yeah. So I think, again, these two characters are like getting to know each other very, they feel like they're getting to know each other very quickly as you do when you are.

Jason Blitman: 35:06

You and

Austin Taylor: 35:07

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. We're, We're tight.

Jason Blitman: 35:09

But That's like sort of my point,

Austin Taylor: 35:11

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 35:12

here, we're 40 minutes into our conversation and like getting into the meat and potatoes

Austin Taylor: 35:16

Right,

Jason Blitman: 35:17

The meaning of life is and what do In, right? Like That's part of what I find so Like getting into it,

Austin Taylor: 35:23

yeah. I think the characters, the characters really believe in what they're doing. And I think that is like they believe in science. I, there are people who, so I couldn't have been a scientist. Like I studied chemistry. I really liked it, but I couldn't have been a lab scientist. And maybe your husband has the same experience. Because like I think to be a good lab scientist, you have to like. You have to love what you're doing and you have to believe that like you're getting somewhere Believe in getting there. First and discovering something new and laying eye. Like I've heard scientists talk about like how just profound it is to them to know something that no one has known before. And to contribute that to the body of human knowledge. And I. I can conceptualize how that would be profound. Like I can understand that would be profound for someone. But it's not for me, but what's profound for me is like reading or consuming art that like makes me feel, I. Human Or makes me recognize my humanity and something else. And making art that makes me feel human or makes me feel like I'm communicating something about the human experience. And so I guess, what do you believe in? I'm getting closer tier to like. Maybe what someone would call passion. But I think taking passion to, to a more existential level, but you end up at belief maybe

Jason Blitman: 36:54

Interesting. Is do, is there like something in between, do you think?

Austin Taylor: 36:58

in between passion and belief.

Jason Blitman: 37:00

right?

Austin Taylor: 37:01

I don't know. Maybe is maybe a spectrum. I Have a good answer to that.

Jason Blitman: 37:05

like never really thought about it in that way and I think that's super interesting. I to pursue a passion so hard and deeply that like it turns into something that you believe in.

Austin Taylor: 37:15

Yeah. Maybe you'd do anything for it at that point is something that the characters of course, grapple with.

Jason Blitman: 37:21

Yeah. Speaking of grappling with, there's the question of, or the frustration that people aren't asking the quote big questions anymore.

Austin Taylor: 37:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 37:32

are some of the big questions to you? What does that mean or what are some big questions that you have?

Austin Taylor: 37:37

So what I mean by that in particular is that science, and this is again one of the reasons why I couldn't have been a scientist, is like science now, because it's so specialized, because we've made so much progress that in order to do anything to make any progress, you have to go into a niche inside of a niche, inside of a niche, inside of a niche. And you're working on like this one, membrane protein in this one cell type, and you wanna figure out like how it folds differently in different situations. And that might have some really broad application that we don't know about yet, but like the research itself is

Jason Blitman: 38:16

was gonna be like, what the hell is that for?

Austin Taylor: 38:19

No. Like we don't know. Maybe it does something. Maybe it doesn't, but like you've understood more about that thing and like that abstractly has value. So like when Zoe and Jack are like, no one's asking the big questions, they're like, we wanna work on. During death or like we like we wanna work on like the, like in the sort of cowboy glory days of science when we were like figuring out the structure of DNA and like

Jason Blitman: 38:40

is

Austin Taylor: 38:41

out, right? Yeah. But these were like really big things and they're really like. Like earth shatter, like paradigm shifting. If you want to take some like coon, theory of scientific revolutions maybe is the book, but like he has this thing that he talks Yeah. He talks about like how, science is like little itty bitty steps and then all of a sudden it's one thing and it's like that just blows up everything and we have this new hole.

Jason Blitman: 39:05

Yeah,

Austin Taylor: 39:06

of ourselves, right? Ourselves. And so the big questions are like those big,

Jason Blitman: 39:11

uhhuh.

Austin Taylor: 39:12

can we not die? Or what is it that makes us human? Like these are the sort of big questions that I think are like, are interesting. I am interested in,

Jason Blitman: 39:22

is it that makes us human? That was something that you'd said, a scientist that you

Austin Taylor: 39:26

yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 39:29

Do you have one of those big questions On the

Austin Taylor: 39:31

I.

Jason Blitman: 39:32

or that you like, I, I don't know what are, what's a big question for you? And it could, I guess it doesn't.

Austin Taylor: 39:38

I've been thinking a lot. Yeah. That's all I got. I've been thinking a lot about, I, I told you that I am interested in working on artificial intelligence. And so I have been thinking a lot about what is art? What makes art and to me.

Jason Blitman: 39:54

question.

Austin Taylor: 39:54

Yeah. To me that has a lot to do with what makes us human. Uh, And so I, I don't think it's divorced, but I, yeah I think it's a really important question, especially as we are able to produce things that look like human made art, that were not made by humans. I think we need to. What does that mean? Is that art anymore? So that's my big question.

Jason Blitman: 40:20

question. Yes. I'm glad I forced you to ask something. So this episode is out in June. Your Which is Pride Month. Of

Austin Taylor: 40:29

yes. Happy bride.

Jason Blitman: 40:30

Happy Ride. What does it mean? What does allyship mean to you? What does it mean to be a good ally?

Austin Taylor: 40:37

not to be a downer but I've been thinking a lot about how at a time like this, when marginalized communities, especially the LGBTQ plus community are, having their rights. Threatened it is more important than ever for people who have privilege to speak up. And so I think to me, being an ally means being that person who speaks up. And then also I think notes on Finn is a lot about fitting in or not fitting in at a place like Harvard. And I think that. It is really important that we all work to make sure that those spaces and similar spaces are safe and welcoming for everybody all the time.

Jason Blitman: 41:27

I love that. Thank you. I suddenly am like asking this question is very uh, so whatcha gonna do for us, huh?

Austin Taylor: 41:34

Oh, no,

Jason Blitman: 41:34

that's

Austin Taylor: 41:35

not at all. Please.

Jason Blitman: 41:37

The book touches on what it means to be in the fringes. The kids who were on the edges of things, the angry kids, the hungry kids, the potheads. And I think so much of the book too is about being seen. You were an overachiever, you are an overachiever. You were the early bird to class. But I think even still. There's value in being seen. Who was there someone in your life that was formative in seeing you?

Austin Taylor: 42:12

Oh, that's a great question. So when I got to Harvard, I I was an overachiever, but I also felt very out of place. I grew up in a place that's very different. Like I write about the place that I grew up in rural central Maine. And I had a lot of privilege, but I also grew up in rural central Maine. I went to public school. And when I got to Harvard, it felt like everybody else already knew each other. They already knew how to. Exist in that space. They already knew like what levers to pull to get the things that they wanted. And I didn't I didn't know anyone. I didn't know how to navigate, et cetera. And so I spent a lot of my freshman year thinking that I, yeah, I just didn't belong. Feeling there was something like wrong with me. I was pretty depressed. I didn't have any friends. And then at the end of my freshman year, I met someone at, this is like such a weird, so there, it doesn't exist anymore, but you used to be able to work at Harvard cleaning dorms. It was called Dorm Crew. And you would, I'm being totally serious. And you would like scrub toilets.

Jason Blitman: 43:24

on. I love that you say used to as though you went to school there decades

Austin Taylor: 43:28

No, no, No. But listen, it don't.

Jason Blitman: 43:32

Oh. I thought, okay. I thought That stopped just before you got there, and I'm like, girl

Austin Taylor: 43:36

no. Oh I'm old. I'm 26. Um,

Jason Blitman: 43:46

Bye. Okay,

Austin Taylor: 43:50

feel old

Jason Blitman: 43:51

back in the day, they used

Austin Taylor: 43:53

back in the day. Right? My day at Harvard. They ain't what it used to be, but they used to have dorm crew and so this was this job that you could hold and people did it because it paid pretty well, but you literally scrubbed freshman dorm toilets during the year. And then at the end of the year, there's this special week or two week long thing where you clean. The freshman dorms because Harvard reunions houses alum in the freshman dorms as like a throwback, let's all live for a week where we like got drunk or as 18 year olds. Not for me anyway. People do this so you, they have to clean the dorms in this like very short amount of time. So a bunch of Harvard students get paid$20 an hour, which was a lot to me at the time To like scrub disgusting. Like you, if you've never been in college, dorms after college, freshmen have left them. Like it's a level of gross that you. Wouldn't comprehend like the things that I found in the store anyway. And I met this guy, so that's a whole just backstory. But I met this guy while I was doing this and it was like it was like I suddenly felt seen. I was like, oh my God. Like this person is so much like me. We didn't really have that similar backgrounds. He had gone. To a private high school, but like public school before that men like had been on scholarship at the high school. He was from Pennsylvania, but it just felt like he also felt like an outsider, and so we both were a little bit like, oh, like this other person also doesn't fit in. And so we stuck together. and we became really, really, he was like my first. I think real friend at Harvard and we became really close and we're still really close, and in fact we're so close that he visits my parents without me sometimes.

Jason Blitman: 45:45

Oh my God. I love that.

Austin Taylor: 45:48

I know. He is he's like a sibling now to me. And he I, I genuinely would credit him with like bringing me out of this sort of insular, like I'm all alone at Harvard. First year that I had.

Jason Blitman: 46:00

Oh, what's his

Austin Taylor: 46:01

Yeah, his name is Cecil. Shout out to Cecil

Jason Blitman: 46:04

to Cecil.

Austin Taylor: 46:05

if you're listening. I'm gonna make him listen now because he'll be he'll be so mortified. He

Jason Blitman: 46:10

It's okay. There's no,

Austin Taylor: 46:13

he

Jason Blitman: 46:14

had to clean those dorms. Everything's uphill from there.

Austin Taylor: 46:18

glory days dorm crew glory days. Yeah. So thanks Cecil.

Jason Blitman: 46:22

Oh my God, Austin, the fact that you think almost 26 is old. I feel you. I feel you. I feel you. Notes on Infinity. Austin Taylor, congratulations.

Austin Taylor: 46:35

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 46:36

Thank you so much for being here.

Austin Taylor: 46:38

Thank you for having me. This is so much fun. You made my first podcast episode so pain free. I appreciate it.

Jason Blitman: 46:45

that way. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Austin Taylor: 46:48

you too. Thanks so much.

Jason Blitman: 46:50

Thank you so much.

Harper!: 46:52

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 46:54

how are you today?

Nicola Dinan: 46:55

I am doing well. Um, I mean, it's so nice to do when, uh, when. Disappoint me was coming out in the uk it was sort of January. and so when I was doing afternoon interviews it was just completely dark or getting dark, but it's amazing'cause it's now so bright here at 7:00 PM um, and it doesn't look like it. It's nice and sunny. Sorry. It's such a British opening for, the first thing I talk about is an extensive download on like the circadian cycle.

Jason Blitman: 47:25

That's okay. Well, here I will now talk about a very American thing, a very homosexual thing. Thank you so much for your flexibility today. I can't believe I accidentally scheduled therapy at the same time.

Nicola Dinan: 47:36

You know what the perks of being a full-time rider is that I am always free. If I ever tell you, I know if you ever hear from me that I've got something booked, I'm lying. I just don't wanna do it.

Jason Blitman: 47:51

That's so funny. I know you need to start developing some fake things

Nicola Dinan: 47:57

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 47:58

so that it can mix in with the lies.

Nicola Dinan: 48:01

it's like, I dunno, when you are sort of doing new experiences so that you can kind of collect material, so it's like I have, you might say like, oh, I have a sound bath at 5:00 PM Yeah. I've got my lunchtime, aerial yoga. I am not very, um, susceptible to hocus pocus, but I do have

Jason Blitman: 48:21

Oh.

Nicola Dinan: 48:22

who are quite susceptible to hocus pocus. Um, and so I hear about these things and I'm sure maybe there is sort of some grounding in the sandbar having, you know, this relaxing effect on your body. But people will say they're like transformative. It's like. You know, they come out born again and it's like, babe, a woman just hit a gong.

Jason Blitman: 48:46

I wonder what the physiological thing is. Like, is it maybe, well, do people have, like, are there like capillaries closer to their skin or something that like the, the vibrations are actually affecting them in a way that they don't affect you? I don't know. I'm just trying.

Nicola Dinan: 49:00

something for her maybe. Um, definitely not something for me to answer.

Jason Blitman: 49:05

Right. No, no. I mean, me either. I'm just making it up. Um, okay, so you're not susceptible to hocus pocus, but what about things like a tarot card? If someone like pulls something and like tells you something about your life,

Nicola Dinan: 49:18

So, um, I don't think the interesting part in that is the hocus pocus. So I don't think that there's sort of like some divine power,

Jason Blitman: 49:28

Right, right, right.

Nicola Dinan: 49:29

determining what card I'm getting. I think what's interesting is what thoughts it provokes in you. When you receive that card and the Yeah, the train of thought that follows.

Jason Blitman: 49:41

Yeah,

Nicola Dinan: 49:42

I'm not gonna seek a tarot reading. If someone like whips out a pack of tarot cards and offer me, offers me a reading, I'm not gonna be rude. You know, it's just,

Jason Blitman: 49:51

sure. Right?

Nicola Dinan: 49:52

I'm, yeah. I'm not gonna, they can lay the card in front of me. It's not gonna kill me.

Jason Blitman: 49:55

Mm-hmm. Unless it says it's going to.

Nicola Dinan: 49:58

I know, but then I'm like, how interesting that

Jason Blitman: 50:01

Right, right,

Nicola Dinan: 50:03

examine these feelings of anxiety I'm having with respect to death.

Jason Blitman: 50:06

right, right.

Nicola Dinan: 50:07

think that's probably the interesting part.

Jason Blitman: 50:10

Uhhuh,

Nicola Dinan: 50:10

I think kind of some of us know it, but I do think there are some real ride or die. For, um, believing in like the divine power influencing those specific cards and in other areas

Jason Blitman: 50:22

yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 50:22

I say I'm not into hocus pocus, but I'm, I'm also from Malaysia and I think. You know, I'm also in Malaysia, Chinese, and I think when you grow up in that culture, you have like an inborn belief of things like ghosts. And so I'm like very on my high horse, um, about things like astrology and then I go home and hear something and I'm like, it's haunted. I had a, I had a noise in my flat, um, a couple of months ago. And a stack of magazines fell off a chair. I now realize that I think in my tired haze, I knocked the

Jason Blitman: 51:01

Bumped something. Yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 51:02

the N Magazines. But I was just, my first assumption was there's a ghost. I told my family, they all freaked out. I was sent a long chant to, I started bargaining with the ghost. I was like, you know what? It's chill. You're here. You know,

Jason Blitman: 51:17

Uhhuh

Nicola Dinan: 51:17

at home. Just

Jason Blitman: 51:18

Uhhuh.

Nicola Dinan: 51:19

long. Um, and then I described

Jason Blitman: 51:21

just don't get in the way.

Nicola Dinan: 51:23

I described the scratching noises to my partner, and he was like, I think you just have like, like a rat. But I like my Malaysian

Jason Blitman: 51:34

Right.

Nicola Dinan: 51:34

was just like, it's a ghost.

Jason Blitman: 51:36

Well, it's, there are two things I wanna say to that thing. One, I find it very interesting because what I am hearing is you say, uh. It's like a higher power issue. Like you, there's not, there's not like a higher power situation, but Ghost is like, not that, right? It's something different. the and the other thing.

Nicola Dinan: 51:54

thing is, I think it's completely irrational. I don't think there's like a logical consistency between

Jason Blitman: 51:59

okay. That's fair. That's fair. I.

Nicola Dinan: 52:00

of, that's just, um, how culture informs our, like superstitious beliefs.

Jason Blitman: 52:06

I, uh, many years ago now, dislocated my ankle and fractured my leg in three places. What happened was I was taking asthma medicine and you like, inhale, hold your breath. Exhale, and then rinse your mouth out. I'd been taking it for so long that I was sort of like in a routine and I was walking from my bedroom to the bathroom. Whilst holding my breath. Next thing I knew I was on the ground, looked up my foot, was facing the wrong way, and I had no idea how I got there. And my face hurt and my first thought was I was punched by a ghost.

Nicola Dinan: 52:43

Yeah, that's my first thought too.

Jason Blitman: 52:47

Totally irrational. No reason for me to feel that way. And then I was like, oh no, I just like fell. And my head hit the table right here.

Nicola Dinan: 52:54

were punched by a ghost. Um, no. You were punched by a ghost.

Jason Blitman: 52:57

So random

Nicola Dinan: 52:59

deny the facts. The ghost was, um, the ghost was disturbed, or the

Jason Blitman: 53:03

Uhhuh?

Nicola Dinan: 53:03

good intentions. The ghost saw you was like, we're gonna punch that asthma out. You know what,

Jason Blitman: 53:11

Yes.

Nicola Dinan: 53:11

those lungs need is a good ass punch.

Jason Blitman: 53:14

Oh my God.

Nicola Dinan: 53:15

came from a good place, but you are on the floor. And the ghost was like, shit, I didn't mean to do that. I better move on. Let's get outta purgatory.

Jason Blitman: 53:24

I have to ask, because you've said the word hocus pocus multiple times. What about the movie.

Nicola Dinan: 53:31

Okay. Remind. I don't, what is that? Wait, I know that there is a mute here. I am Googling S pocus. Oh, I've

Jason Blitman: 53:40

B Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker. Kathy Najimy,

Nicola Dinan: 53:43

seen that, but you know, I

Jason Blitman: 53:44

queer Canon. It is culture. How old are you? We're take

Nicola Dinan: 53:50

I'm 31.

Jason Blitman: 53:52

Okay. I am a little bit older than I'm 37, but like this is, this should still be a part of your. Culture, but that's okay.

Nicola Dinan: 53:59

was in, I was literally in the womb when

Jason Blitman: 54:01

Fair. Oh my God, you just made me feel so old.

Nicola Dinan: 54:07

I, I think I must have seen it though. Oh, wait, no, I'm, I'm thinking of the one with the bald witches. Is that the

Jason Blitman: 54:14

Oh, that's the witches roll doll. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Nicola Dinan: 54:19

was supposed to be terrifying to

Jason Blitman: 54:21

yeah, yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 54:22

woman.

Jason Blitman: 54:24

And you were like, what about it?

Nicola Dinan: 54:26

Yeah. I say, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 54:31

Um,

Nicola Dinan: 54:32

wo. I was like, the shit I saw in that.

Jason Blitman: 54:34

something about hocus pocus. I dunno. anyway, I am shocked that this is what we're talking about right now. I had every intention of talking to you, um, about ingrown hairs because apparently you're the expert.

Nicola Dinan: 54:47

Where'd you hear that? Who? Who, who, who, who, who? Who told you?

Jason Blitman: 54:52

Um, on Caroline O'Donohue, former Gays reading guest on her podcast.

Nicola Dinan: 54:57

that was a amazing podcast. I loved recording that. Um, so About a year and a half ago, and she was like, I need to have you on the podcast. And. She explained to me what the podcast was and I, um, I was like, okay, well can I do the Real Housewives? And she was like, no, that we've done that. And I was like, can I do America's Next Top Model? And she was like, no, we've done that. And I was like, okay. Well the only special interest I have left is pimple popping. I watch like maybe seven to eight Real Housewives franchises. People are like, what do you have on? I'm like, I've got so much real Housewives to watch. I'm finding it really hard to schedule like a relation to manage a relationship. Friendships, um, my workload and the Housewives, it

Jason Blitman: 55:42

Uh,

Nicola Dinan: 55:43

soon as sort of the finales came, I was like, finally, I'm free.

Jason Blitman: 55:48

and at that point it's like you should just become one.

Nicola Dinan: 55:51

I know, I do think I'm, I am destined for it, I do think, but I'm gonna have to sell a lot more books if I'm gonna get on that show,

Jason Blitman: 56:00

Fair. Okay.

Nicola Dinan: 56:01

brings me here to,

Jason Blitman: 56:02

Yes. Which is why you're here, um, which we'll talk about in a second. Disappoint Me by Nicola Dine, and this cover is so amazing. I'm obsessed.

Nicola Dinan: 56:14

I specifically said I wanted a painting of like a tired woman, and a

Jason Blitman: 56:19

It's so good.

Nicola Dinan: 56:21

is what I received.

Jason Blitman: 56:22

It is so good. Um, but before we talk about disappoint me, Nicola, what are you reading right now?

Nicola Dinan: 56:28

Oh, you know what? I'm actually reading my third book, so I'm

Jason Blitman: 56:33

That's a great answer.

Nicola Dinan: 56:34

so yeah, I was like, oh, I, because actually when it

Jason Blitman: 56:36

I.

Nicola Dinan: 56:37

to. Personal reading. Um, I'm interviewing Sean Faye, uh, who has just, who's written Love and Exile, which has just come out in the us.

Jason Blitman: 56:47

Oh, yes, yes.

Nicola Dinan: 56:48

at a literary festival this weekend.

Jason Blitman: 56:51

I,

Nicola Dinan: 56:51

finished that. So I just finished reading that for a second time. Um, and then I'm in this very nice period where I'm sort of in between books and I am going to read a book called Colony, uh, by Annika Nolan. I. After that, but at the moment, I'm just gonna finish my own book because I'm doing edits. I've just finished a really big edit of it. Um, this is the third one after disappoint me, maybe coming out in a couple of years. And, yeah, it's just sort of, it's kind of nice to read your own work when you feel happy with the draft.

Jason Blitman: 57:27

I love that. I also love that you have a pen in your hand as though I've like interrupted you. You're like, oh, fancy seeing you here. I've been,

Nicola Dinan: 57:36

like, like I was

Jason Blitman: 57:38

oh my God, I'm so sorry.

Nicola Dinan: 57:40

to the minute, um, up to the minute that we started this podcast, and as soon as we finish, I'll go back to it.

Jason Blitman: 57:47

So really I'm just, I'm a distraction. I'm a nice distraction. I'm like giving you a respite,

Nicola Dinan: 57:51

Yeah. When you said like, what are you reading now? I mean, I really meant like now.

Jason Blitman: 57:56

right? Like literally right now, pan the computer down, you'll see. Let's talk about disappoint me. Do you, do you have an elevator pitch?

Nicola Dinan: 58:06

disappoint me is about a 30-year-old trans woman named Max who falls down the stairs that a New Year's Eve party wakes up in hospital and has the same, same first thought that we all would, which is I. Fuck, I need to find a boyfriend. And so she embarks on this journey, uh, to throw herself sort of headlong into heteronormativity, and she meets a British Chinese man called Vincent, who initially seems like the vision of an enlightened. Man. but the novel is told from two Perspectives, Maxons and also Vincents in 2012, more than 10 years before the start of the novel where we find Vincent in Thailand on his gap year. and join him as he embarks on a love affair with a British traveler there. Um, that's probably longer than the standard elevator pitch, but I hope it sort of gets the soul of

Jason Blitman: 58:59

Yeah. No, it really does. It's so funny. I didn't even think. About the relationship between my story of did I get punched by a ghost in the beginning of disappoint me, like of course, that could have been the same thought that Maxi had

Nicola Dinan: 59:12

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 59:15

waking up in the hospital room. Was I punched by a ghost who pushed me down the stairs?

Nicola Dinan: 59:18

who? A ghost pushed me down the stairs. Um, but actually I think in, in reality, I think Max is such a, so prone to self blame. And, um, so much of, uh, her life's disappointments. Well, painting so many of her life's disappointments as personal failures that she would never think it was a ghost. She'd, like apologized to the ghost. You

Jason Blitman: 59:43

Right.

Nicola Dinan: 59:43

it's like, I think, I think

Jason Blitman: 59:45

Was I in your way? Go. Sorry.

Nicola Dinan: 59:47

exactly. Um, excuse me, don't mind

Jason Blitman: 59:49

Right. I don't wanna take up space.

Nicola Dinan: 59:51

corporeal form. but you know, I think she's in a place where she Yeah. Is, is so prone to self blame and we see her, um, across the novel to maybe take responsibility for things, uh, that she shouldn't. And so I think the book

Jason Blitman: 1:00:07

Yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 1:00:08

co tackles all these complex questions that we face. As we move into what feels like the true adulthood, not the adulthood, uh, that

Jason Blitman: 1:00:17

That we think.

Nicola Dinan: 1:00:18

it's like, oh, you're 18, you're an adult. No, no,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:20

Right, right.

Nicola Dinan: 1:00:21

like the true adulthood. And I think, you know, it's interesting that I'm writing books in my thirties that are still maybe considered coming of age books. but I also kind of see these sort of like boongs womens as like an eternal thing. There's sort

Jason Blitman: 1:00:36

Yeah. Well,

Nicola Dinan: 1:00:38

I'm doomed to always come of age. I'm gonna be turning 50. And I'm like, oh, coming of age again.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:43

well, it's true. And I say all the time on this podcast, you know, what does it mean to be an adult, right? Like we're as, and in my opinion, as long as there is someone older than us, we won't feel like one, right? Because we will always look to the next generation. And so in turn, we will sort of always be coming of age. Um.

Nicola Dinan: 1:01:05

think, you know, um. To become an adult is to, uh, in some ways realize the ways in which you're still a child. You know, I think we kind of embark on our early twenties having a real sense of, you know, I'm a, I'm a big girl now. Like, I'm doing all of these things. I have a job, and you feel a great sense of, um, maybe like newfound independence or you've just gone off to college or university and you feel. Um, you feel empowered,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:36

Mm

Nicola Dinan: 1:01:37

you know, you encounter these things in adulthood, which. you back to the darkest places of your childhood. You enter into relationships which trigger you, triggers you, trigger you in ways that are reminiscent of those deepest wounds that you

Jason Blitman: 1:01:53

hmm.

Nicola Dinan: 1:01:54

a child and that sense. And you also realize and see it happen in your parents as well. You see the ways in which your parents are brought back to their childhood, the ways in which your parents are triggered. And you

Jason Blitman: 1:02:07

Yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 1:02:08

that actually to be an adult is to have. one foot in the age you are and one foot in your past,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:14

Hmm.

Nicola Dinan: 1:02:14

like sort of an inevitable condition, is to be in that awkward splits. And so we find ourselves, um, confronted with the past and it. and it being so uncomfortable because it in us a fear that we haven't actually changed as what much as we have. Or it makes it feel too close for comfort that, you know, oh wow. I used to express myself in that way.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:37

Hmm.

Nicola Dinan: 1:02:37

in which I didn't have like a female hormonal profile, all of that stuff.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:42

And then there's a flip side too of, of someone giving themselves permission to change, permission to be different, permission to, to, uh, reconcile the worst things that you've ever done in your life in 2012, right. Something else that I love so much about the book that we haven't talked about is how. Funny it is and how relatable it is. And I don't want you to feel any sort of way by me saying this, but it is giving me Dolly Alderton. It is. Well, there's something about her book Ghosts in particular that is my favorite kind of book and in turn so is disappoint me where it is so readable. but it's also. It is still literary. There are, the sentences are still beautiful and it gives you so much to talk about and yet you can also devour it, right? So there's, it is a, it is a pleasure to read, but it is not just cotton candy. It's, you know, there's a lot of substance there.

Nicola Dinan: 1:03:41

Yeah. You know, I think, thank you so much. I think when I think about what I like to write, I think I don't want. Um, the complexity to necessarily be in, uh, the journey to understand what I'm saying. Although, you know, I think sometimes it can, I think sometimes what I'm the meaning of what I'm saying might take a little bit of time to untangle, but I don't want that, uh, meaning to be unclear.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:11

At a sentence level. Right? Yeah, no, I understand.

Nicola Dinan: 1:04:15

am kind of motivated by clarity and I think. It is maybe kind of reflected of my background, like when I

Jason Blitman: 1:04:21

Mm.

Nicola Dinan: 1:04:21

I studied sciences and when I, I graduated, I became a lawyer and practiced as a lawyer until 2021. And so I have just worked and always studied in fields of which you can't, like you can't, no hocus pocus with language. You just have to be

Jason Blitman: 1:04:41

Yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 1:04:42

because there's. Huge consequences to a loss of meaning. And I, they take, I think, my writing as seriously, and I think my editors know it's something I really care about. And so even if I am using flowery language, I do try to, have it be accessible and for the complexity to largely be within the ideas. That's not to say I like, I don't like books that are more experi experimental with languages that I don't like poetry. I do like all those things, but it's just in terms. Of when I'm writing, I like, I, I, I want the meaning to be clear and I want, the points of discussion that follow from the novel to be centered on, um. These sort of human themes, you know, I

Jason Blitman: 1:05:27

Yeah.

Nicola Dinan: 1:05:27

be fussing about what does this sentence mean? I want it to

Jason Blitman: 1:05:30

Right.

Nicola Dinan: 1:05:30

you know, do, would you forgive Vincent? You know that, that's what's interesting to me, and it's what I ask

Jason Blitman: 1:05:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola Dinan: 1:05:37

readers of the book, but I'm so glad you thought it was funny. I think

Jason Blitman: 1:05:41

Yes.

Nicola Dinan: 1:05:42

such a, that's such a, um, it's such a compliment to make people laugh.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:47

Well, it's fun. It's just, it's, it's relatable, right? You, you could live in this world and that I think is important right? To, as a reader. Um, right. Like I read East of Eden'cause it's one of my husband's favorite books and, and.

Nicola Dinan: 1:06:00

favorite books.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:01

Oh, really? Have fun. But at a sentence level, it is, it, well, each sentence is delicious. It is. It is beau, but, but not dissimilar from Shakespeare. I was like, Steinbeck, what are you trying to tell me? You took four pages to say one thing, you know? And, and, and that has its time and place. And frankly, at that time. No one had anything better to do than read all of that. but for me, my favorite books are,

Nicola Dinan: 1:06:30

on East of Eden please?

Jason Blitman: 1:06:33

oh my God. I know. So, but I love that that's one of your favorite books too. How fun.

Nicola Dinan: 1:06:37

absolutely. I love Steinbeck. I love grapes

Jason Blitman: 1:06:39

I.

Nicola Dinan: 1:06:40

and I love, east of Eden, but East of Eden in particular. I just thought it had the perfect ending.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:45

Yeah, no, the ending is beautiful.

Nicola Dinan: 1:06:47

I think about it all the time and

Jason Blitman: 1:06:49

Hmm.

Nicola Dinan: 1:06:50

I quite like sort of the, the, um, the morality that's often baked into 19th century models, novels you see in Sevki as well. It's not really how I write, I think I sort of try to live in the morally ambiguous, I think maybe I still try to handle moral questions with a sense of openness, even if there's sort of a idea of what my view might be.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:11

Mm-hmm.

Nicola Dinan: 1:07:13

I always liked sort of the clear sense of kind of good and evil in those books. Um,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:19

Right. It's like quite literal. This is the, this is what we're at talking about here. Before I let you go, as my guest, gay reader, I ask everybody this question the last few months. this is a time to amplify people around us that we love. You are not allowed to say your partner. If you were to die tomorrow, who would you enlist to delete the search history on your computer?

Nicola Dinan: 1:07:43

My friend Leo, I trust the thing is like, so I think he would gossip about, uh, he was, he would basically, I think he would laugh. He would gossip a bit about it. And I think that's how what I, I, I want people to be laughing at my funeral. I wouldn't even mind if it

Jason Blitman: 1:08:03

Yes.

Nicola Dinan: 1:08:04

I think I Google pretty funny shit, like nothing that incriminating. And I also think, you know, going back to this idea of writing comedy, like the best, um, the best thing you can do to write funny things is to be able to laugh at yourself. I think like there's so much about my book that parallels my own life. And so, if you can't laugh at yourself, you can't make fun of it. And so I would trust him because I know he'd make fun of it. And I

Jason Blitman: 1:08:31

Yes.

Nicola Dinan: 1:08:32

make fun of it. He'd gossip about it. He'd laugh about it. And that's how I want to be remembered.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:37

Love. We love Leo. Thank you Leo, for being the one who we would turn to. Um, Nicola. So nice to connect and meet you. Thank you for everything. Everyone. Go get your copy of Disappoint Me by Nicola Dinan out now and have a wonderful rest of your day.

Nicola Dinan: 1:08:54

Thank you.

1:08:55

Austin and Nicola, thank you so much for being here. Everyone, thank you so much for joining me. I will be back again tomorrow to celebrate the incredible legacy of Edmund White and then back to our regularly scheduled programming next week. Thank you all. Have a wonderful rest of your day.