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Welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. Today's episode is dedicated to the memory of Edmund White who passed away on Tuesday, June 3rd, Just three weeks after I had the honor of speaking with him about his memoir, the Loves of My Life. Edmund White was nothing short of a pioneer in gay literature, a towering figure who helped shape modern queer storytelling and gave voice to a generation coming into its own during the most transformative decades of LGBTQ plus history. As one of the founding voices of contemporary gay literature, Edmund documented the gay experience with unprecedented honesty and literary grace from the liberation movements of the 1970s through the devastating AIDS crisis and beyond. His semi autobiographical trilogy, beginning with a boy's own story, broke new ground in its unflinching portrayal of gay life. While his nonfiction work, including the joy of gay sex challenged societal taboos, and helped countless readers understand themselves. He was a co-founder of the Gay Men's Health Crisis in 1982, demonstrating his commitment to community beyond the written word. In our conversation, which would be among his last public interviews, Edmund got candid as he reflected on his life, love, sex, and his career. Everyone has the kindest things to say about Edmund White and his warmth, wit, and wisdom shine through, and it was my privilege to talk to him. In the show notes, you'll find tributes from those who knew Edmund the best, including a particularly moving piece in Vulture by previous gay's reading guest Christopher Boland, who was close with Edmund. This episode stands as both a celebration of Edmund's extraordinary life, and a testament to the power of gay literature to illuminate, inspire, and endure. You can learn more about GA's reading at GA's reading.com or on Instagram at GA's reading. There is no theme song today. I am just honored to introduce my conversation with the one and only Edmund White.

Jason Blitman: 2:01

well, Edmund White, welcome to Gays Reading, although I feel like your books are, I. What gays have always been reading.

Edmund White: 2:09

I thank you.

Jason Blitman: 2:11

we are here to talk about the loves of my life. Your, aptly titled sex memoir. I also have sitting next to me a boy's own story and of course, the one and only, joy of Gay Sex because I need to make sure I'm fully prepared.

Edmund White: 2:28

Right.

Jason Blitman: 2:29

maybe this is a, a silly question to start with, but what does love mean to you?

Edmund White: 2:35

Well, uh, I guess it means something passionate and tragic. For me, I mean,

Jason Blitman: 2:42

Yeah.

Edmund White: 2:43

you know, where you just, uh, obsess over somebody and cry a lot. I mean, that's true though. I also have what the French call esteem love in my life

Jason Blitman: 2:56

hmm.

Edmund White: 2:57

esteem somebody like my husband I've been with for than 20 years. And, uh, And we esteem each other. And I, I, I can't walk anymore because I've had, so, you know, I've had two strokes and one heart attack and he takes care of me and

Jason Blitman: 3:19

Yeah.

Edmund White: 3:20

me. And, uh, and you know, he's really very kind to me and takes a lot up a lot of his time.

Jason Blitman: 3:31

And it, and it takes a lot of love for that. I'm sure is. Well, it's also, you know, you talk about something that could e even bring you to tears. You have said you could fall in love with a man sitting on the other side of the subway. That's love, love sort of came measly to you too. What? What's that kind of love for you?

Edmund White: 3:50

No, that was in my twenties and uh, uh, you know, I would be, uh, coming home from. Work on the subway and I would look at somebody the other side of the car and I'd think, oh, I wonder if I could marry him. Uh, you know, I was always available.

Jason Blitman: 4:11

Yeah, I had so many subway husbands that didn't know that I existed.

Edmund White: 4:16

uh, there you go.

Jason Blitman: 4:18

I'm very familiar. Um, you said when you were younger is when you would have these, uh, love stories of that were fleeting on the subway. How has this conception of love evolved from then to now, sort of for you emotionally? I.

Edmund White: 4:39

Well, uh. I am 85. I, I, uh, take, uh, androgens because of my heart.

Jason Blitman: 4:51

Mm

Edmund White: 4:51

I have like zero sex drive

Jason Blitman: 4:54

mm.

Edmund White: 4:55

zero sex now. Uh, although there I belong to, uh, silver daddies I meet lots of interesting young men there who would like to get together. I think, why not? But then I never go through with it.'cause it, it is too annoying.

Jason Blitman: 5:16

Yeah, well, you're also probably a great person for them to engage with because you don't really plan on meeting up with them, but you're also a very good writer.

Edmund White: 5:29

Oh, why would they care? Why

Jason Blitman: 5:31

well, so they get a really good, sexual love letter from you, but without having to leave their home.

Edmund White: 5:38

oh, but I don't write letters

Jason Blitman: 5:39

No, it's just little, little quips here and there on silver daddies.

Edmund White: 5:43

Maybe. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:44

Okay.

Edmund White: 5:44

you know, just little messages.

Jason Blitman: 5:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, you do have a way with words, I guess is really what I should say. Whether you're writing love letters or not, is uh, you certainly have that experience.

Edmund White: 5:55

I think like all writers, I don't really like writing other stuff

Jason Blitman: 6:00

Hmm.

Edmund White: 6:01

uh, uh, Isherwood was a good friend of mine the end of his life, and he would say, you know, I can talk to you anytime of the day or night, but please expect me to write you a letter, because you know, writing is hard. Huh?

Jason Blitman: 6:17

Yeah, yeah, of course. It's like, uh, my, one of my roommates when I lived in New York City was a chef, and I mean, he worked at some of the fanciest restaurants in New York City, and he would come home and he would get Bodega sandwiches or Domino's Pizza, or he would, you know, make himself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.'cause the last thing he wanted to do when he'd get home was cook.

Edmund White: 6:41

cookie. Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 6:42

Yeah.

Edmund White: 6:42

some cooks who love to cook and even on the weekends they do, but, uh, they're the minority.

Jason Blitman: 6:50

Yeah. At some point in the book, you talk about how you would often try to work to get sex out of the relationship very quickly. and so I get, I, I was so taken by this balance between sex and love and, and what it's sort of like, you know, chicken and egg, what comes first? What lasts, does love last because of the sex? Does, does love come because of the sex? Has that been a single answer for you? Your whole life? Have that I, as I can only imagine, based on reading this book, you've had. Thousands of sexual experiences that they haven't really been the same.

Edmund White: 7:29

Uh, no. I mean, uh, I, but you're quite right that I, uh. usually try to get sex out of the relationship, very quickly. I don't know whether it's that I lose interest

Jason Blitman: 7:44

Uh.

Edmund White: 7:44

or that because I'm so, so much from an oppressant generation I, uh, feel guilty about having sex or what. I don't know.

Jason Blitman: 7:56

Oh, that's interesting.

Edmund White: 7:57

never been able to figure it out, but, uh. I know when, when Charles Silverstein and I wrote The Joy of Gay Sex, uh, we sort of divided the gay world into builders adventurers um, that, and I was always an adventurer rather than nest builder.

Jason Blitman: 8:22

Uh.

Edmund White: 8:22

mean, I built plenty of nest, but, but not, uh, with sex as a component.

Jason Blitman: 8:29

Yeah. You were just talking about the joy of gay sex. you've, I mentioned having so many, uh, sex capades in your time. You have called yourself a literary exhibitionist, but you're not that way necessarily in real life.

Edmund White: 8:46

Well, what I mean by that is that, uh. a lot of times people who read me assume that I am all ready to tell lots of body detailss and that real life, and they're confused because I'm, uh, of old fashioned and, uh, standoffish in a

Jason Blitman: 9:06

Yeah.

Edmund White: 9:08

I mean, just, I like to write about sex, but don't really like to talk about that much.

Jason Blitman: 9:16

That's really, I mean it's, it's interesting because there is such a stigma and such a connotation of talking about sex in general, even writing about sex. And so I think for me as the reader, it was so liberating to just read about, uh, someone who it seemed. Didn't give a shit about what the world thinks of them or knows about their, uh, deep private things and lives. How did you get over the shame of even putting it on the page? You said, okay, so, you know, maybe you don't love talking about it.

Edmund White: 9:51

loved writing about it. Uh, even when I was 14, I was writing about gay sex, long before anybody else was.

Jason Blitman: 10:00

Yeah.

Edmund White: 10:00

I wrote, uh, a novel called The Tower Window when I was 14. And, um, do you wanna say hello to my husband?

Jason Blitman: 10:11

Sure.

Edmund White: 10:17

Hello.

Jason Blitman: 10:18

Hello, husband.

Edmund White: 10:20

I see you handsome. So, um, uh, always liked to write about it, uh, I was always a, truth teller.

Jason Blitman: 10:33

Mm.

Edmund White: 10:34

I mean, I think that's what novelists are. Uh. Uh, weirdly enough, I think that we the ones that tell the truth.

Jason Blitman: 10:44

Yeah,

Edmund White: 10:45

are the ones who lie.

Jason Blitman: 10:47

So you're, you're saying that even from a young age, shame was never a part of it for you? It just came, it, it came naturally to just put this on the page?

Edmund White: 10:56

Uh, I had no shame as a writer,

Jason Blitman: 10:59

Yeah.

Edmund White: 11:00

as a person. I did, uh, I mean, uh, I oftentimes, uh, felt bad, you know, like I'm 85, so who grew up in the you know, no one ever, no one approved of gay sex in those days.

Jason Blitman: 11:21

Yeah.

Edmund White: 11:23

It was

Jason Blitman: 11:23

Up.

Edmund White: 11:24

illness and I went to a psychiatrist trying to get better.

Jason Blitman: 11:27

Right. But, but putting yourself on the page was a way of, of not sne, not sneaking around, but it was a, it, it's a, it's a safe space. The page. Yeah.

Edmund White: 11:41

Also, it was a way of being innovative. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 11:45

hmm.

Edmund White: 11:47

containing the word novel is novel new and, and you try to write about something new, which in those days in the fifties was very new.

Jason Blitman: 11:59

Yeah. Uh, you write in this also that there is still a prudishness about sex. Why do you think that is?

Edmund White: 12:09

I think it came back, I mean,

Jason Blitman: 12:11

Oh, interesting. I, hmm.

Edmund White: 12:14

And then it came back in the au Uh, I, I don't know why. I guess, um, I mean, I guess partly because of aids,

Jason Blitman: 12:26

Sure.

Edmund White: 12:27

I mean, and, but I think also I think like, uh, the internet. Uh, fostered a lot of hypocrisy people could cruise on the internet without their lovers knowing.

Jason Blitman: 12:42

Hmm.

Edmund White: 12:43

um, so they could, they could watch porno, they could jerk off talking to somebody, they could, um, have a whole affair with somebody or make rendezvous with other people. All online without, I mean, being tracked down

Jason Blitman: 13:05

Right.

Edmund White: 13:05

the, uh, jealous love. So I think that, um, could pretend to be prudish because that was considered classy and, and, uh, and they, and they, uh. They could actually be sluts, uh, be in real life.

Jason Blitman: 13:27

Yeah.

Edmund White: 13:28

because of the internet.

Jason Blitman: 13:30

Yeah. And it's uh, harder for people to find out.

Edmund White: 13:33

Exactly. I mean, like, you know, with, even with, uh, that your lover could always phone you and catch you in the middle of something.

Jason Blitman: 13:42

Mm.

Edmund White: 13:43

didn't you pick

Jason Blitman: 13:44

Mm-hmm.

Edmund White: 13:45

what were you doing?

Jason Blitman: 13:47

Yeah.

Edmund White: 13:48

you know, and I, I had, I had a very jealous lover in the seventies before all these things, before these little telephones or anything. um. And as soon as I'd walk in the door, he'd say, well, it's 15 minutes from your house to mine. You've taken 25 minutes. What did you do with that extra 10 minutes? You know? And, uh, you get

Jason Blitman: 14:19

You can get into a lot of trouble in 10 minutes.

Edmund White: 14:22

Right.

Jason Blitman: 14:24

Were you never the jealous type?

Edmund White: 14:27

Almost never

Jason Blitman: 14:28

Hmm.

Edmund White: 14:29

uh, mean, not sexually jealous, but if somebody was actually in love with somebody else, I could be jealous if I

Jason Blitman: 14:41

Hmm.

Edmund White: 14:41

love with them. and of the weird things I did in my life that I don't haven't written about, I guess, is that as the years would go by, I would, I would manage to sleep with my old lovers, lovers. I mean, you know, that's one of the weird things about gay life is

Jason Blitman: 15:07

Yeah.

Edmund White: 15:08

is that like a sex bar written by a, a Frenchman in the 19th century was all about men and women, and the men hiding under the bed while the husband comes in. But in gay life, everybody's, uh, a target or available. I mean, they, they're endless possibilities.

Jason Blitman: 15:29

Yeah. And the, the pool is smaller,

Edmund White: 15:32

Yeah, there are fewer, fewer gays, but

Jason Blitman: 15:35

right?

Edmund White: 15:35

uh, but every man who is gay, can be a participant.

Jason Blitman: 15:41

Right, right. Exactly. Oh, that's so funny. How interesting. Yeah, I, I, I think I'm so stuck on shame and love and sex and, uh. You're writing about it simply because, you know, I think the prudishness of it all comes from shame and I'm, I wonder what would happen if my generation and younger started to just write about the things that scared us or the things that we felt shame about. Would putting it down on paper, uh, set it free? I wonder.

Edmund White: 16:18

I always feel that Gates have a rare opportunity. they did before everybody got married and had children. uh, uh, that, that, I think that in the past, gays had the rare opportunity, uh, to be honest, because straight people say, oh, I can't write about that. What would my wife think?

Jason Blitman: 16:38

Um.

Edmund White: 16:38

neighbors think? What would the PTA think? All that? What were the children think? uh, G didn't have that problem until now.

Jason Blitman: 16:47

Yeah. I mean, well meanwhile my husband would be like, write another one. That one was good. Tell tell me more.

Edmund White: 16:56

Oh, that's nice. He's a,

Jason Blitman: 16:58

Yeah. Yeah. He is a good sport. We're all good sport, you know, we, it's, life is too short. We try to be, uh, as open minded as we can be.

Edmund White: 17:07

What? You try to, if you love somebody, you want him to be happy, and if he'll be happy with to bed with Bobby, why not?

Jason Blitman: 17:15

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Um, you

Edmund White: 17:19

as he doesn't do it too often,

Jason Blitman: 17:23

what's too often to you,

Edmund White: 17:25

twice.

Jason Blitman: 17:31

you talk about how an essential part of memory. Rehearsal. The more you revisit memory, the longer it sticks. You said you're 85 years old. You were talking in this book about experiences that were happening when you were a teenager and beyond. How have you sort of kept these memories alive for you?

Edmund White: 17:56

I, I think a lot of'em through masturbation fantasies, in other words. Yeah. I mean, because I think the whole world. Can be divided in the four that there are people who like visual pornography and people who like written pornography. And there are people who like to be totally creative in their pornography and make up new imaginary scenes or those who like to replay old scenes. And I'm one, I'm more, I'm more like literary than visual. And, and I

Jason Blitman: 18:31

Mm.

Edmund White: 18:32

to, Rewind, old memories,

Jason Blitman: 18:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Edmund White: 18:39

that gets me off if I think, oh, that time that I had those two men.

Jason Blitman: 18:46

So it almost sounds like the sex memoir is probably, uh. Better, quote, unquote, rehearsed than other aspects of your life. If you were say, writing about a family member, right? You're not necessarily replaying the memories of your cousin over and over again in your mind, but these, these are getting replayed over and over again.

Edmund White: 19:08

There you go. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:10

Thinking about, you know, you spent time around the world. Uh, has, do you feel like love and sex and joy of all of the behavior was different in the States versus Paris?

Edmund White: 19:27

Oh yeah, I do. I mean, like in Paris, uh, attractive boys are kept.

Jason Blitman: 19:36

Hmm.

Edmund White: 19:36

If they're poor, I mean, they find somebody rich and who's older takes, who keeps them in, in style. uh, but in America people don't like that. They want to be independent. They, they don't want some rich, older men taking care of them.

Jason Blitman: 19:55

Hm.

Edmund White: 19:55

They want to be themselves um, and, and have, or at least be independent. So that's a big difference. Other differences are that, uh, the French, uh, really like perverted sex. And, and so in a, in a personal ad, you'll say, I am perverse looking for the same. I am a

Jason Blitman: 20:23

Hmm.

Edmund White: 20:24

And, uh, but. Americans tend to avoid that, although they might do it in real life, but they, they meet, but they won't advertise it.

Jason Blitman: 20:35

Hmm.

Edmund White: 20:35

Uh, but the French are very frank about that. I think in general, the French are realistic everything and certainly about sex. I mean. But you know, like a, a French person will say to you, oh, my grandmother's lover, blah, blah. almost no Americans can say my grandmother's lover. You know, we just, we put old people on the back shelf and about them, and they, they take them, they take themselves out of the running.

Jason Blitman: 21:08

Hmm.

Edmund White: 21:09

but I can't tell you how many French friends of mine had grandparents who had lovers.

Jason Blitman: 21:17

Well you, I mean, you just said how many old people take their themselves out of the running. Meanwhile, you just published your sex memoir in 85. Good for you. Good for you for not taking yourself out of the running.

Edmund White: 21:31

Well, I'm a little bit French, I think I lived there 16 years and I like to think at least, and not right now, I'm writing a book about the Fourteenth's gay brother.

Jason Blitman: 21:44

Uh, yes. I've heard you talk about this on some other people's podcasts, and at the time you said you hadn't even written anything yet. You were just in the research stage. Has that changed?

Edmund White: 21:54

I've written about 50 pages now.

Jason Blitman: 21:56

Oh, wow. Exciting. Okay. Um, you said you think you're a little bit French, uh, and I was gonna make a very crude joke about how after 16 years you might still have a little bit of French inside of you.

Edmund White: 22:10

Oh, well, yeah, probably. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:16

You know, talking about this, this new book that you're working on, as I said, I've heard you speak on other podcasts, you've spoken a lot about how you've written. Multiple, you have multiple novels that are finished already, uh, waiting to be published. and you said to somebody else that the assumption is that because you're such a prolific writer and you can't seem to stop, which I think we're all grateful for, that it's inevitable that some will be published posthumously. Is there, is there anything you'd wanna say to that as a, as a concept or to, to. The future of readers

Edmund White: 22:55

Oh, well maybe they'll earn some money for my husband who, 25 years younger than I am, and, uh, you know, uh, I don't know. Uh,

Jason Blitman: 23:07

buy the book so Michael can make some money.

Edmund White: 23:09

yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 23:11

Right. That's, that's your, your posthumous message to the one, to the world.

Edmund White: 23:16

right. Right.

Jason Blitman: 23:17

That's totally fair. The book spanned so much time and you have really everything from the joy of gay sex, to just having so much sex. You talk about. in writing porn, one needs to sort of know the slang of the moment. are there things that have surprised you about how sex has evolved or how sexual behavior has evolved or in the course of your lifetime? Just

Edmund White: 23:45

have you heard of people called Demi Sexuals?

Jason Blitman: 23:49

uhhuh.

Edmund White: 23:50

I mean, I think that's unusual. But I mean,

Jason Blitman: 23:52

Oh sure.

Edmund White: 23:54

fun thing, the fun thing about that is somebody who doesn't wanna have sex unless they're in love with somebody, that's the way it used to always be for everybody.

Jason Blitman: 24:04

Yeah.

Edmund White: 24:04

mean, that was the Victorian ideal. the idea that has become a perversion in our day is so strange

Jason Blitman: 24:13

Hmm.

Edmund White: 24:14

You know, people have to feel something before they wanna have sex. that must mean they're, they need therapy. I think that's what crazy.

Jason Blitman: 24:25

Well, it's, and yet the book is called The Loves of My Life. It's not called The Sexcapades of My Life. I.

Edmund White: 24:34

Yeah. Right, right. Uh, it sounds better.

Jason Blitman: 24:41

So you're saying that, that maybe it's actually the sex Capades of your life, but the loves of my life sells better.

Edmund White: 24:47

Well, I, I, I think you, you know, I wrote the biography of the Jeanine

Jason Blitman: 24:52

Yeah.

Edmund White: 24:53

he once said, uh, I never experienced in a pure state, by which he meant he always fell a little bit in love with every partner. And, and to him, a pure state of sex would, be devoid of emotion. It would just be mechanical or, or, you know, physical.

Jason Blitman: 25:15

Yeah.

Edmund White: 25:16

uh, and I, I, I'm the same way. I mean, I, at the baths, I used to fall in love with a little bit with each partner.

Jason Blitman: 25:27

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like we said at the beginning of the conversation, even just making eyes with someone across the subway, you know, there's something that draws you to them. so you talk about, you know, demisexual being something that feels very new and different to you. What about over the course of, of your sex life for yourself? Were there things that were new that surprised you?

Edmund White: 25:49

I was, I kind of discovered that for, for a long time, about 15 years, I was into s and m. Uh, of course first as an S and then an m

Jason Blitman: 26:04

Hmm.

Edmund White: 26:04

and um, uh, although usually it's the reverse. I mean, people, people have to learn how to be, uh, sadistic by being slaves first.

Jason Blitman: 26:18

Hmm.

Edmund White: 26:18

and then they get to be, I started off just because I had a. A trick who was so irritated, don't touch my hair, don't do this. Dude. finally slapped him then he came and I, I thought, wow, that's exciting. And, uh, because he was so annoying. I mean, that and that, uh, that got me going.

Jason Blitman: 26:46

Yeah.

Edmund White: 26:46

But I mean that whole. Uh, experience of s and m came was like a huge cresting wave, and then

Jason Blitman: 26:57

Hmm.

Edmund White: 26:57

it dred away. I, I, I lost interest in it finally, but I had liked it for years and years.

Jason Blitman: 27:05

Well, I think it's amazing to hear you talk about that because, I don't know if it's just my generation or people in general who sort of, uh. I, I feel like I witness people who get sort of stuck in their ways or in their behavior and they feel like they're not allowed to change and evolve. And my husband and I have been together 11 years now and just, we are, we appreciate being open-minded of just like what life can bring to you, whether, who knows, whatever that means, whether it's sexual or not. we're not gonna be the same people tomorrow as we were yesterday because it's.

Edmund White: 27:41

very fortunate. That means you'll have a long term relationship. You'll have a long relationship because you're evolving together. Uh, but most people get so stuck and they, but they become so boring. Like, yes. I, I was thinking of something outrageous that would get me in lots of trouble if I said it. So now I'm gonna get in lots of trouble. I, I was thinking about all, these boys who complained that village priest to crafted them. I was thinking, well, at least that means they have one interesting thing to talk about during their long, boring Midwestern lives.

Jason Blitman: 28:23

Oh my God. Edmond

Edmund White: 28:26

I know, I, I, I should be compassionate because sister, four years older than I am, has battled Ancest her whole life.

Jason Blitman: 28:40

Mm.

Edmund White: 28:40

now she's still on the couch. Trying to deal with the, because our father raped her when she was 13

Jason Blitman: 28:48

Yeah.

Edmund White: 28:48

she became pregnant and then she had a miscarriage she's never gotten over that.

Jason Blitman: 28:53

Mm.

Edmund White: 28:54

And uh, and Michael also had some sexual experiences when he was just six with his hunky older, uh, cousin

Jason Blitman: 29:05

Mm

Edmund White: 29:06

and who was like 18 and then my best friend, his mother seduced him over and over again when he

Jason Blitman: 29:14

mm.

Edmund White: 29:15

and he, he's quite screwed up and, a, um, ketamine addict.

Jason Blitman: 29:22

Hmm.

Edmund White: 29:23

you know, I mean, I don't know. I, so I, I, I do see that incest can be really serious. But I, I, I just wish would talk about it in a more frivolous way.

Jason Blitman: 29:37

Mm. Well, you know, you also said you should have more compassion because, and I don't know that you. for all intents and purposes, joking about the neighborhood priest means that you don't have compassion. I think it means that you're bringing levity to something that is very difficult, I think, to talk about.

Edmund White: 30:00

I never thought, oh, this will make a good story. But, uh, you know, I, uh. And then sometimes you only realize, like, only in writing this book did I realize had been raped twice,

Jason Blitman: 30:16

Mm.

Edmund White: 30:17

both times by very distinguished Englishmen who got me drunk and, uh, raped me. I mean that, but it, I don't think it's such a big deal for, for an adult man. be raped.

Jason Blitman: 30:37

You talking about. All of these experiences that you had. I mean, thank you for sharing all of that. I, I, you know, I, while I appreciate that you can be nonchalant about it, that doesn't mean that it hasn't had some semblance of effect on you throughout your life. Um, quite a prolific sex life you've had. and just in general life in general. You've lived through many, different versions of the gay community., If you were to have a conversation with your younger self about, about love, about the future, about sex, is there something that comes to mind that you'd want to share with the younger version of Edmond?

Edmund White: 31:20

Well, I would say, don't assume that you know anything about. Gay life after just one or two years of experience in your particular decade? I mean that, uh, the, the the 14th brother I'm writing about, and all of his companions, they all had wives, they all had children, they all had lovers that they were made in love with and they all had mistresses women.

Jason Blitman: 31:53

Yeah.

Edmund White: 31:53

Other women too. So, I mean, it, it doesn't make sense if you think well, about gay life now, where everybody's so compartmentalized

Jason Blitman: 32:04

Hmm.

Edmund White: 32:04

and um, and, and bisexuality is just seen as being in the closet.

Jason Blitman: 32:13

Hmm.

Edmund White: 32:13

You know, I mean, people really are so unfair to bisexual and, um. I don't know. I, I mean, I, if I had to talk to my younger self, I would say that, I would say, uh, look to your friends for love not to lovers

Jason Blitman: 32:35

Hmm.

Edmund White: 32:35

love, uh, and, cultivate your friends and never betray them

Jason Blitman: 32:40

Hmm.

Edmund White: 32:41

uh, and never put them on the back burner when you get a new love or the way most people do. I think that's a terrible thing that. That would be advice and, and the, and the whole thing about, don't assume that Life is one big uniform thing.

Jason Blitman: 32:58

Yeah. that's really beautiful and, important I think for me to, to think about as well. If I were to ask the same question about, about. Talking to the queer community at large or a young queer person today, would you say the same thing or might you say something different to a stranger?

Edmund White: 33:17

well, if they ask the same question, I guess I would

Jason Blitman: 33:20

Well, right. I guess if a, if a young gay person said to you, Hey, you're an an elder gay, what would you say to me? It, it, I, it would be some, some version of that.

Edmund White: 33:30

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:31

Yeah.

Edmund White: 33:31

flexible in your thinking if, if not your behavior. I mean, I don't think. Not everybody can be, be flexible in their behavior, but, but they should, uh, be flexible in their understanding.

Jason Blitman: 33:47

Yeah.

Edmund White: 33:47

and I think that not everyone, but I think everyone can be, can take their friends very seriously and realize that a family of friends is really. Important.

Jason Blitman: 34:02

Yeah.

Edmund White: 34:02

third thing is that beware of religion. It's the biggest enemy in all of its forms of gay life,

Jason Blitman: 34:10

Hmm.

Edmund White: 34:11

Muslim Islam or Christianity or Judaism. They all hate fags

Jason Blitman: 34:18

Hmm.

Edmund White: 34:18

they all, they're all poison. And, uh, and I, I know that people say, oh, well we belong to the wonderful gay church with a wonderful gay pastor. But come on, that's very rare. And, and if you think of all the young people, I have so many friends who are. Who are Mormons who've committed suicide,

Jason Blitman: 34:44

Hmm.

Edmund White: 34:45

who, you know, the Mormons are told that they, they, they're exiled from their family forever if they're gay. And, uh, you know, I mean, that's the same religion that accepted black people about 30 years ago.

Jason Blitman: 35:02

Hmm.

Edmund White: 35:03

'cause they were all children of ham. And, uh, you know,

Jason Blitman: 35:08

Right.

Edmund White: 35:09

But religion is really hateful and everybody should fight it.

Jason Blitman: 35:13

I have such complicated, feelings about organized religion in general. Um, I wasn't, no, I was brought up somewhat Jewish. Um, I just find. Uh, none of it is, it's all ridiculous to me. Yeah. Joyce Carol Oates, your former, uh, office mate is quoted as saying that you are, you're famous for your generosity and your kindness. Where does that come from?

Edmund White: 35:44

Maybe, maybe my mother who was, she had those qualities. She

Jason Blitman: 35:50

Mm.

Edmund White: 35:50

her whole life as, um. Uh, uh, with brain damaged children. I think they're more up to date terms for, they're mentally challenged now. But anyway, uh, she worked in a free clinic, at at, at Cook County Hospital in Chicago, she devoted her whole life. Uh, six in the morning till eight in the evening. To her patients. And, uh, was a psychologist, but she was director of a medical clinic and she was quite religious in, in a kind of crazy, way. I mean, she was a Christian scientist,

Jason Blitman: 36:37

Hmm.

Edmund White: 36:37

didn't, uh, ignore medicine.

Jason Blitman: 36:41

How lovely that that's where, where you think you got those pieces of you from, I, in doing my research. On you for this episode. Uh, my husband turned to me and he was like, why are you smirking? And I said, I'm prepping for this guest. I'm just so charmed by him. To, to which he said, he's fucked a million people. He's gotta be charming. I was like, Hey, you're not wrong.

Edmund White: 37:10

I never thought of that, but that's a good, good observation.

Jason Blitman: 37:17

After all these years, you think that's what it was? Your charm, your delightful personality,

Edmund White: 37:23

Well, I think that works better on women than men. I think that, um, had a taxi driver in Paris once, and I was just for novelistic reasons, I was asking him, uh, how much of a, of a, a high class prostitute Cause

Jason Blitman: 37:42

Mm

Edmund White: 37:42

you know, I was asking all that. uh. He said, well, I wouldn't know and you wouldn't have any trouble with your charming little accent in French. And, um, but anyway, he said, if you, if you can make a woman laugh, nine times out of 10, you can seduce her.

Jason Blitman: 38:02

mm and you do not feel that was the case for men.

Edmund White: 38:05

I don't think they care.

Jason Blitman: 38:07

Did you not care, uh, whether or not a man was charming?

Edmund White: 38:14

I, guess not. I mean, you know, uh, they say he could charm the pants off somebody,

Jason Blitman: 38:26

Uh,

Edmund White: 38:26

not sure that's true.

Jason Blitman: 38:32

sometimes I feel like that's all I have going for me, so I hope that it is true. I hope people. Like the charm.

Edmund White: 38:38

Well, you also handsome,

Jason Blitman: 38:40

well, thank you. I was not fishing, I just, I, uh, I tend to lean into the charm. you are so prolific. This episode is coming out during June, during Pride, happy pride. Um, uh, what does it mean to you? To be at this stage in your life, in your career, to be one of the sort of founding fathers of gay literature, what does that mean to you? That's such a, I just thought of that. Turned a phrase. How crazy. You're a founding father of gay literature, Edmund White. It.

Edmund White: 39:22

Well. I mean, I think of, of issue with, as having been the real one. Uh, he, I worship of him and, uh, I think of myself as a disciple of him. Uh, but of course other great gays like Jeane, Ian, all, all those people are founding fathers

Jason Blitman: 39:46

Yeah. Oh, I, I didn't say one. There's plural, there are some, you know, uh, handfuls, but certainly. You know, of contemporary culture, you really straddle a line between, you know, pre and post aids, pre and post. I mean, not post aids, AIDS is not, has not gone anywhere, but just straddling the line of different periods of gay life of, of contemporary world. So if I am putting you on that pedestal, what does that mean to you?

Edmund White: 40:20

Um, well, I hope it means that my next book will get published. I'm not

Jason Blitman: 40:30

Yes. Why is that?

Edmund White: 40:33

my editor is so possy. Uh, you know,

Jason Blitman: 40:41

Who do we have to write to? I'm gonna write a letter, an angry letter.

Edmund White: 40:45

Okay, good. No, I mean, uh,

Jason Blitman: 40:49

I hope that it means you get published too. How could you know, it's funny you say this because at some point you talk about having written four books prior to your first one getting published. Have those four books ever seen the light of day?

Edmund White: 41:03

received letter? No, but one of them could. I think I, I, I, I say in my will, uh,

Jason Blitman: 41:11

I.

Edmund White: 41:11

uh, I authorized Michael to publish one of them, which I think is kind of good. But, uh, the other three, no.

Jason Blitman: 41:20

Okay, well now you have everybody curious. That's okay. You should have like a burning ceremony where they just, you

Edmund White: 41:29

right,

Jason Blitman: 41:30

get, get rid of them. Um. Oh God, no. Not that kind of burning ceremony. No, no, no.

Edmund White: 41:40

books,

Jason Blitman: 41:41

I know, I guess, I guess technically that would be burning books. No, we don't want that. Sending it off into the world so that it's, it just goes on and, and isn't something that can be published anymore. Well, I hope we see, uh, all of the Edmund White books that you want out in the world. That's what I think is important.

Edmund White: 42:01

Yeah. I've put in one called, uh, the Spirit Lamp, which my editor is harassing me about right now. And uh, and then I have another one called Hospitality. Which is kind of crazy and all over the place, but it, think it, it has some very amusing writing in it.

Jason Blitman: 42:27

Yeah.

Edmund White: 42:27

And then the one I'm doing now called Missier,'cause the King's brother was always called Missier. that was his official title

Jason Blitman: 42:39

Fabulous.

Edmund White: 42:40

every generation and um, and I, I find him an amazing, interesting character. And, um, so I hope I lived it. Finish from Messe.

Jason Blitman: 42:53

Yeah. Are you a fast writer?

Edmund White: 42:56

Well, this one I'm writing by hand.

Jason Blitman: 42:59

Oh

Edmund White: 43:00

I, I used to write by hand and then I went to the computer and then, then I got so intimidated by writing on the computer that I've gone back to hand.

Jason Blitman: 43:11

yeah.

Edmund White: 43:12

Also it means like late at night, I can still keep scribbling

Jason Blitman: 43:16

Mm.

Edmund White: 43:16

because my computer's in the wrong room.

Jason Blitman: 43:19

Right, right. Of course.

Edmund White: 43:20

And, uh, so if I write by hand I can just keep on going. And, um, but, uh, I have this charming young friend who types a hundred words a minute, and who's gonna come in and let me dictate? That, that book to him, uh, just so I can get an advance for it.

Jason Blitman: 43:46

Yes. Amen. He is gonna put the dick and dictate.

Edmund White: 43:50

Yeah, right. There you go.

Jason Blitman: 43:54

Oh my God.

Edmund White: 43:55

do you, what do you write?

Jason Blitman: 43:56

You know, it's funny that you asked that. I am not really a writer though. Anne Patchett told me that you are whatever you tell yourself. And so if I tell myself I'm not a writer, then I will never be. but I do, I've had a few ideas for a story and there's one that won't go away for years now. So I'm gonna, I think, lean into that a little bit.

Edmund White: 44:18

She's very nice, isn't she?

Jason Blitman: 44:19

She is a delight.

Edmund White: 44:21

Yeah. No, she's wonderful

Jason Blitman: 44:23

Yeah.

Edmund White: 44:24

and, uh, I love her writing and. and her, uh, her novel about, um, hermaphrodite was really good.

Jason Blitman: 44:36

Mm. Yeah. She, uh, she talks about how she doesn't let anyone see a single piece of the book that she's writing until she's done so.

Edmund White: 44:48

I am the opposite. I, I. I, I, I have to be praised by my poor husband every day or I can't keep going. I'm easily discouraged.

Jason Blitman: 45:01

No. Well listen you so many books. You clearly doing something right

Edmund White: 45:07

Well, he lives,

Jason Blitman: 45:08

or he is who, however, it's working. It's working. That's all right.

Edmund White: 45:13

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 45:14

I Edmund White. It is such a pleasure to have you here on gay's reading Happy Pride there. There's.

Edmund White: 45:21

pride to you.

Jason Blitman: 45:22

you. I feel like there's no one else I'd rather be celebrating pride with than, uh, one of the, one of the many founding fathers of gay literature. Um, you know, I think we all have those, our, our own forefathers. But I am a, I'm a late in life reader and so the loves of my life was actually my first, my introduction to Edmund White. And I know, and so I heard you talking to somebody else about how you wish more people would talk to you about your novels. So that's why I immediately went out to get this.'cause I have to read a boy's own story. I, I'm about 20 pages in. I can't wait to devour all of the things. You're gonna keep me very busy.

Edmund White: 46:03

Oh yeah. have, my college lover is reading my entire works, I think. He's the only person in the world, uh, done except me maybe, but, uh, uh, but he, he's enjoying it. He says,

Jason Blitman: 46:21

I love that you're still in touch with him.

Edmund White: 46:23

Yes, yes. We're best friends. We see each other every Thursday after his shrink appointment.

Jason Blitman: 46:30

I love that. Shout out to him. We love it. Do you, you see each other every Thursday? Do you do something specific? Do you.

Edmund White: 46:37

Oh, he brings lunch.

Jason Blitman: 46:38

Oh, so just a little lunchtime.

Edmund White: 46:40

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:40

I love that.

Edmund White: 46:42

he, he's a, a famous beauty, uh, I mean, you know, like when we lived together, cars would screech to a halt and people would jump outta their cars and say, would you like to go with me to Egypt or whatever. I, I mean, he was that kind of beautiful and

Jason Blitman: 47:02

And he would say no. And you would turn to the person and say, I'll go.

Edmund White: 47:06

No, but he, uh, he um, he, he looked like, he looks like Billy Paul Newman looked when he was young. He is that handsome.

Jason Blitman: 47:15

Oh, wow. Uh, we love, we love time. Time is a, is a, is a nasty, terrible friend. Um, Edmund, I feel like I could, I could talk to you all day. I could, I could sit in here, listen to all of your stories all day. thank you so much for being here.

Edmund White: 47:32

Thank you so much, Yeah.