0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode we've got VE Schwab talking to me about her new book, Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. And my guest gay reader is Melissa Febos, who tells me about what she's been reading and talks about her new memoir, the Dry Season. Both books are out now and both of their bios can be found. In the show notes, huge announcement over here on Gays Reading. I am so excited to be partnering with Allstora to launch the Gays Reading Book Club, which you could join today for$1. The link is in the show notes. The first book, the July pick is Disappoint Me by Nicola Dine, last week's guest, gay reader. I will be choosing exclusively LGBTQIA plus authors and. Books that I call accessibly Literary. You do not wanna miss out. Check out the link in the bio. Join the club today. For a Dollar I store donates a book to lgbtq plus youth for every book club subscription, uh, that starts so you can support these. Incredible queer authors support young people. It is a win-win and the books are gonna be so good, I promise. Make sure to follow us over on Instagram at Gays Reading. We have some fun giveaways coming up, that will happen over on the Instagram. You could find us on YouTube and Substack and Blue Sky as well, the links to all of the things can be found both in the show notes and the link tree. Over on Instagram we have gay's reading merchandise, if you haven't seen gay readers, sweatshirts, and A is for ally t-shirts and a lot of fun. Stuff you could check that out. And if you are looking for ways to be an ally, this pride, you can like and subscribe to Gay's reading wherever you get your podcasts. This way you'll be the first to know when an episode drops, but also help let the powers that be know that you enjoy the podcast and if you're so inclined to leave a five star review, that is certainly appreciated as well. I had a guest on recently who said they're a regular listener, and that I ask all the time to leave a review, and they mention that they haven't left a review yet. So this is your sign Former. guest slash listener and to all of you, it is so much appreciated and really goes a long way, shockingly. anyway, without further ado, please enjoy my conversations with VE Schwab and Melissa Febos.

Jason Blitman: 3:02

What I'm most obsessed with is that your sweatshirt says, don't, and for.

V.E. Schwab: 3:07

it says.

Jason Blitman: 3:08

I actually, I was hoping that's all it said, but I was like, it could literally say anything underneath. It could say, don't bother me. It could say, don't talk to me. It could say don't move. It could say Don't.

V.E. Schwab: 3:19

my friends gave this to me because I'm so bad at saying no. And I guess they just wanted to help me. But the problem is I forget that it's such an aggressive verbiage and then I'm out

Jason Blitman: 3:30

Don't.

V.E. Schwab: 3:30

my dog and people are like, and I'm like, why are people glaring at me? I don't know. What about me gives off this standoffish thing and it's just, I just have this emblazoned across

Jason Blitman: 3:40

Right. Oh yeah, it's my aggressive sweatshirt. I

V.E. Schwab: 3:43

going out in public attire these days where I'm like,

Jason Blitman: 3:45

Listen. Listen, if you don't have something intelligent to say, leave me alone.

V.E. Schwab: 3:52

a generalized, don't like, it's a general, don't. Anyway,

Jason Blitman: 3:57

my God.

V.E. Schwab: 3:58

for being slightly and just like crashing out in real time this month

Jason Blitman: 4:01

That's okay. Also it's the end of your day. It's the beginning of mine.'cause I'm on the west coast, so we're like literally

V.E. Schwab: 4:08

are. I'm like, I'm

Jason Blitman: 4:09

on our different journeys.

V.E. Schwab: 4:10

Wherein

Jason Blitman: 4:11

I know.

V.E. Schwab: 4:12

at the date in the corner to know what day of the week it was. Wherein Monday is reaching an end where I am

Jason Blitman: 4:18

Was it okay? Do I have things to look forward to?

V.E. Schwab: 4:20

not really

Jason Blitman: 4:22

Okay.

V.E. Schwab: 4:22

not really, but it could be worse, to be honest, your future is a lot more frightening for the day than my future, which involves like making a dinner.

Jason Blitman: 4:32

Yeah. Yeah. You're also in a different country.

V.E. Schwab: 4:36

it just could go so sideways.

Jason Blitman: 4:38

I know.

V.E. Schwab: 4:39

Yeah. No.

Jason Blitman: 4:41

What? Why are you, what the hell? You know what, I think the exterminator is here and

V.E. Schwab: 4:49

god.

Jason Blitman: 4:50

I'm pretty sure she's we have an intruder her.

V.E. Schwab: 4:52

my, my dog, who is in the other room right now. If anything happens in this building, rest assured I will hear. I will hear about it. I will hear

Jason Blitman: 5:00

I always know when a package gets delivered.

V.E. Schwab: 5:02

Yeah. The demons that live in my house who pay no rent and do nothing to contribute to society in any way. Constant interruptions. Constant. So

Jason Blitman: 5:11

literal ones and the metaphorical ones. Oh my God. I take medication for mine

V.E. Schwab: 5:16

I take medication and also my dog is on as much medication as I am, which I will never fail. I got that dog as an emotional support animal. Never has there been a worse like this. I am the emotional support human to this dog who hates my guts. I once tried to see what would happen, to see if she would save me duress, and I like wiped out on my living room floor unintentionally. But I stayed down to see what she would do. She's 70 pounds, right? She stood up, walked around my body, walked to the doorway, looked back over her shoulder to make sure nothing had changed and then left.

Jason Blitman: 5:54

Perfect. Perfect.

V.E. Schwab: 5:56

on that dog. Really love her.

Jason Blitman: 5:59

Listen, you're breathing. Her work here is done.

V.E. Schwab: 6:02

Tim, let's be honest, that dog came from the woods of Transylvania when she was four months old and has never forgiven anyone for it.

Jason Blitman: 6:09

That literally sounds fake.

V.E. Schwab: 6:11

I know. She's just on brand. What can I say?

Jason Blitman: 6:15

I'm obsessed. I'm so happy to meet you.

V.E. Schwab: 6:18

Meet you too. I feel like, I guess at some point we should talk about books, but we could also just vibe with book

Jason Blitman: 6:22

I talk about all the things I vibe. Honestly. I'm like, the last thing I saw in my inbox prior to hopping on this video chat was the Publisher's Weekly email that included your starred review.

V.E. Schwab: 6:35

I was so happy.

Jason Blitman: 6:37

Congrats.

V.E. Schwab: 6:39

a time when it feels like the gays are winning very often, so every single nice thing that happens for this book, I'm just

Jason Blitman: 6:44

Yes. Star for the.

V.E. Schwab: 6:47

just wanna

Jason Blitman: 6:48

I want a star. Gimme someone. Gimme a star. You're my star

V.E. Schwab: 6:51

for being, for surviving.

Jason Blitman: 6:54

literally living, right? We're here. You get a star. I feel like authors in general, it's like your book finna has a beginning, middle, and an end. You get a star

V.E. Schwab: 7:05

honestly, and I'm so bad at celebrating anything too. Like I said, I finished a book on Friday and and it's if I don't celebrate immediately, I feel like, oh I'm not really entitled to that celebration anymore. The time has passed. We must have a new thing. And and I really just wanna start figuring out a gold star system.'cause I was absolutely that kid in school who like appreciated stickers.

Jason Blitman: 7:26

arrived on the stickers.

V.E. Schwab: 7:28

think I need stickers.

Jason Blitman: 7:29

I know. You know what? That's not the worst idea. I heard you talking about your like color coded square system,

V.E. Schwab: 7:36

My mood board, this is the most depressing thing I've ever done. I actually had to stop it immediately because as soon as it told me how badly my brain was lying, like I was like, oh my God. I'm being gaslit by my own personality, like I am being gaslit because it turns out if my brain doesn't have anything to hate me for, it will just make something up. In which for the listeners watchers, is that I realized that after a couple hours had passed, my brain would start reconning how well or how poorly my writing session had went. And by the end of the day, it would be convinced that I had a terrible writing day. And then I like started, just did a, I did a week long test. This is how you could tell I'm a gold star kid because I have a habit tracker.

Jason Blitman: 8:17

And it's literally right there. It is at the ready.

V.E. Schwab: 8:20

Look at this bullshit. Look at this bullshit. It was green the whole

Jason Blitman: 8:24

It's beautiful though.

V.E. Schwab: 8:26

if you had asked me at the end of the day, I would've put it there

Jason Blitman: 8:29

I know. I know.

V.E. Schwab: 8:30

the immediate aftermath

Jason Blitman: 8:31

I.

V.E. Schwab: 8:32

I can trust nothing. I trust nothing. That was the moral of that story.

Jason Blitman: 8:38

I know it's true. Listen I would thrive on the same thing and I am like a professional procrastinator. And I think I need like a little, like something to give me the star.

V.E. Schwab: 8:48

I need to figure out a reward system.'cause I'll turn a reward into a pre-war very quickly. I'm like, oh, this bar of chocolates for after I write this chapter. If I have half an hour, I'm just pre rewarding

Jason Blitman: 9:00

Right. and it'll like it'll energize you.

V.E. Schwab: 9:02

Sure. It, yeah. It totally doesn't work that way

Jason Blitman: 9:05

No, it doesn't.

V.E. Schwab: 9:06

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 9:08

I am, I'm obsessed with your end of Monday Madness going on.

V.E. Schwab: 9:13

Coming out in two months. I don't know what to do with myself. It's the bad window too, where I don't think readers realize there's this like horrible, not a lull.'cause I know that everything's going but like it's a powerlessness that

Jason Blitman: 9:26

yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 9:27

Nothing I can do and I'm not good at just being like, universe, take the wheel here. I'm like white knuckling control in a world with a very little of it.

Jason Blitman: 9:38

And you also finished your book already, so it's not like you're even, preoccupying yourself with that.

V.E. Schwab: 9:42

I was like, this is great. I'm gonna finish writing this novel at the end of May. Having have one week. There's not gonna be any time to panic and bitch that I am, had to finish it like seven weeks early.

Jason Blitman: 9:55

Girl. You are an overachiever.

V.E. Schwab: 9:57

Now I have, I mean I have five other books I need to write, okay. But the point is, I was in that one. I was And now I have nothing to protect me from my own psychosis.

Jason Blitman: 10:06

that's, I'm here for you. We could talk for the next two months,

V.E. Schwab: 10:09

should be therapy because my therapist literally got the flu last week and had to go our session and I was like, Tom, I

Jason Blitman: 10:15

but that is. So funny you say that because my last therapy session was two weeks ago and my therapist was like, I'm on vacation and I'm doing this and I'm doing this, so I can't talk to you for a month. And I was like, I'm sorry. What

V.E. Schwab: 10:27

or ma'am, or they, I don't know, but sir, it's, it is unacceptable. My therapist is going away in the month of May, and I was like but we're like still gonna meet then. Like, how is

Jason Blitman: 10:38

You're like, you know I have a book coming out.

V.E. Schwab: 10:39

What do you, what am I

Jason Blitman: 10:40

This is prime time. This is what I pay for.

V.E. Schwab: 10:44

Exactly. I don't think therapists should be allowed to have lives. I think it

Jason Blitman: 10:48

Oh my God.

V.E. Schwab: 10:49

a 24 7 thing.

Jason Blitman: 10:51

That's what this, again, I'm here for you. This is a safe space

V.E. Schwab: 10:55

just gonna turn this into a therapy session. It's fine.

Jason Blitman: 10:57

and the things that, my list of things to talk you about is long and a lot of it is probably therapy related.

V.E. Schwab: 11:04

Like talked to my editor right before this and she was trying to gimme a whole long metaphor about'cause now my, my, my brain turns it into, now I won't have any new ideas. I only have Ideas and my brain won't be capable of making anything new ever. And I had to sit through a whole metaphor about like gardens and rocks and how you have to get the rid of the rocks so that the garden, I don't know, I don't believe it, but I've already

Jason Blitman: 11:25

And of course, like a therapist would say to you, you've had the ideas before you're gonna have them again. But when you're like, but no, I won't. What if I don't?

V.E. Schwab: 11:33

That's the thing, you can't actually turn logic against me in that moment because just because something has happened repeatedly in the past doesn't mean it's part of my future.

Jason Blitman: 11:42

No, because my luck, that's when it stops.

V.E. Schwab: 11:46

And also who's to say maybe there is a limit on what we are allowed and what we're our Of. And I'm just aging out of mine at this point.

Jason Blitman: 11:54

I know. We're the same age too.

V.E. Schwab: 11:55

Ugh. I feel like I'm in my Crohn era and I ex, I embrace it in so many ways. And then I just have this I think it's what happens when you're like a precocious youth wherein I went from being like a prodigy to an adult that was just good at my job.

Jason Blitman: 12:11

I,

V.E. Schwab: 12:12

It's bad.

Jason Blitman: 12:13

when I tell you that resonates, I always hated telling someone how old I was because I was always younger than they thought, and now I'm like, oh, I just turned 37. And they're like, oh. I'm like, I'm sorry.

V.E. Schwab: 12:29

that's the wrong answer.

Jason Blitman: 12:30

I know.

V.E. Schwab: 12:31

me.

Jason Blitman: 12:32

I was like, wait, what happened to, oh my God, you're so young.

V.E. Schwab: 12:34

No, I interviewed an author on my Craft podcast last

Jason Blitman: 12:38

Uh,

V.E. Schwab: 12:39

Bless her. And she said something, she was like, you know when I was like nine, like TikTok didn't even exist and I was like, babes, when you were nine is when my debut novel came out.

Jason Blitman: 12:47

oh my God.

V.E. Schwab: 12:48

Math. I

Jason Blitman: 12:49

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. That's overwhelming.

V.E. Schwab: 12:53

we can begin.

Jason Blitman: 12:54

I've had your book for so long, I don't even have a, the proper cover. It is like very advanced reader. And can you see all the tabs?

V.E. Schwab: 13:06

that

Jason Blitman: 13:06

I, they're just randomly placed.

V.E. Schwab: 13:08

Yeah. No, it's just for aesthetics.

Jason Blitman: 13:10

for effect.

V.E. Schwab: 13:10

Yeah. But the vibes are good. I like it. They're well spaced.

Jason Blitman: 13:14

you. Thank you. This is book 25 Congrats.

V.E. Schwab: 13:18

you.

Jason Blitman: 13:20

And something so that I think maybe you won't find interesting, but in the context of how I know you've spoken about your books before, this was my first V Schwab.

V.E. Schwab: 14:07

This thrills me, this delights me. And it's really interesting. Yeah, so it's book 25. I think in some ways it's like, I know in some ways the tired

Jason Blitman: 14:20

Should we unpack that side for a minute?

V.E. Schwab: 14:22

right? In some ways it's like a reckoning of the previous 24, but not of

Jason Blitman: 14:26

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 14:27

because I'm so proud of every single thing I've written. But of my relationship to publishing over those

Jason Blitman: 14:33

Hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 14:33

24, I started I signed with my first agent when I was 19. wrote what would become my debut novel when I was 21. I have done this 24 times since now. This is my first lesbian book. I am a lesbian, so it's pretty weird. But the thing is can track my relationship to gender and sexuality across my books Out when I was 27 I was already getting published when I was 22.

Jason Blitman: 14:58

Mm-hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 14:58

So there's like, you can like literally watch my relationship to the concept of otherness and search for vocabulary and search for identity. And even then, once I had found that language, you can watch my persistent attempt to still assimilate into mainstream publishing and to make it like less or make it more palatable, oh, don't pay attention to the fact that I'm a fem presenting author. I'll write with my, like initials and, oh, don't worry about the fact I have gay characters. It'll be mostly subtext. You won't even notice.

Jason Blitman: 15:26

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 15:27

I spent years trying to do that because I was told early on I would never be commercially successful because my books were already super weird and super dark and quiet and not uber commercial. And so I wanted so badly to prove them wrong. And at the time thought the only way to be commercially successful was to find a way to assimilate into what was already commercially successful.

Jason Blitman: 15:48

Right.

V.E. Schwab: 15:48

then Addie LaRue, which was my 20th book came out during the pandemic and just it did not make my career. That's one of the weird things, is I was already a New York Times bestselling author many times over, but

Jason Blitman: 16:02

No big deal.

V.E. Schwab: 16:03

grew with An exponential force. Like it added a zero to the end of my audience

Jason Blitman: 16:08

Yeah I,

V.E. Schwab: 16:09

and I thought. If I don't transmute success of that novel into some form liberation for myself creatively, like I can't keep doing this. I'm so tired. And so that's like where Barry our Bones was born was just like, I'm gonna take the massive success of Addie LaRue and I'm gonna force the publisher to everything behind this next book. And Gonna do that, I didn't actually didn't have to force them. Tour was, tour has been an incredible

Jason Blitman: 16:42

totally. Totally. But even if that's what you needed to tell yourself.

V.E. Schwab: 16:44

yeah. But I was like, this is my permission.

Jason Blitman: 16:48

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 16:48

of authors take immense success and it makes them frightened I must only produce this thing now,

Jason Blitman: 16:54

Replicate it. Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 16:56

like, I can't, it's not in my personality to transmute that into safety. So I was like, if I can't transmute Addie's success into support. And honest version of myself. Then what am I doing?

Jason Blitman: 17:09

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 17:09

What's the point here? I'm so

Jason Blitman: 17:11

And honestly, the best Good Reads Review of Barry Our Bones is yours. I,

V.E. Schwab: 17:16

Yeah. It's

Jason Blitman: 17:18

because but that's what I find. It's for listeners who haven't looked, you basically say something about, you never thought you'd put more of yourself in a book after Addie, and yet here you are. This is like every fiber of your being. So it's so interesting circling back to me saying, this is my first book of yours. I like, I feel like I'm getting you fully formed and. And so I was like, oh, I'm meeting you at your truest.

V.E. Schwab: 17:43

it's so interesting'cause the one thing I haven't thought about is barrier bones as an entry point in so many ways, it feels Darker shade of magic or vicious or Addie will always be like the primary doors through which people find me. But to that point, I'm so excited and hopeful that I'm able to broaden my audience even more so that bones is an entry point. Because I don't think my career, the thing I will say it for myself is I don't think my career is one where if you go from bones into my backlist, you'll be disappointed. Because I think the authenticity was always there. I was just trying to find ways to shape it differently. Whereas this, and I'm not sure I ever want to do this again. This was. This exists as a one time only,

Jason Blitman: 18:26

Right.

V.E. Schwab: 18:26

And they, and thems I just was like, we're gonna do this.

Jason Blitman: 18:29

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 18:29

scare the shit out of me. And it did. And it was so cathartic and so liberating. But I'm really curious now for readers who find this first to then go back to Shades of Magic or to go to Addie, or to

Jason Blitman: 18:42

Yeah,

V.E. Schwab: 18:43

and

Jason Blitman: 18:43

so it's really funny. So during C-V-I-D-I was on a book crawl and wearing masks, this woman was talking to her friend that she was with, pointing at Avy LaRue, talking about how it's a book that everyone in her life has said she needs to read, but she hasn't read it yet. I overheard her saying that and I said, that's so funny. Me too. But I, when you do something like a podcast like this, if a book is on the shelf already, it's like you don't have time to read it.

V.E. Schwab: 19:14

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:15

The amount of backlist that is just like screaming at me to read and that connection. I became a part of this woman's book club. I met so many new friends in the community because of that. So it's so fascinating that like bonding over other people saying, you need to read this book was a huge component for me. No, it's amazing. And I, wanted to read it before I read this, but I was like, you know what, no. I want this book to be my first. So it was very calculated on my part. Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 19:44

you go back and read Addie.'cause

Jason Blitman: 19:46

Oh, it is on my shelf. It is ready to go.

V.E. Schwab: 19:48

I'm, same way, but weirdly, I'm even more ornery, which is, I only read two kinds of things. It feels like books that are not out yet

Jason Blitman: 19:56

Right,

V.E. Schwab: 19:56

that have been out for 35 years. Like, don't tell me what to read. I'm gonna read what I want. And it's apparently Stephen King's the stand. Like

Jason Blitman: 20:02

right.

V.E. Schwab: 20:02

know, I just am like a very orderly reader. I end up, I usually, if something's a new release and I haven't read it, it takes me five to six years.

Jason Blitman: 20:10

Yes. Okay. We are the same. I don't know how much you want to talk about your elevator pitch of the book. I know things are like very elusive. Even the back of this galley, it's like not much. So all I knew about it going into it was toxic lesbian vampires.

V.E. Schwab: 20:25

a headline.

Jason Blitman: 20:26

So that's all we wanna say. I'm, that's, I'm more than happy. But if you have a little, if you have a little pitch, I'm happy to hear it.

V.E. Schwab: 20:31

I do. And that's the thing I, the reason that the copy on the back of the book is a little obscure, is intentional because think that this is a book that benefits sperm, you knowing less going Just so that you can have an experience. And it's so interesting, this pitch falls along two lines. And it's whether or not you like vampires, because if you don't like vampires, it's not really a book about vampires, guys, like I say the word one time in

Jason Blitman: 20:57

One time, I,

V.E. Schwab: 20:58

pages.

Jason Blitman: 20:59

and it's towards the end of the book, I.

V.E. Schwab: 21:01

I know it

Jason Blitman: 21:02

And to the point where I was like, I, it, that meant something.'cause I was like, oh my God, I've literally, this has not been a word in this book.

V.E. Schwab: 21:09

intentional. And that's because, look, I am fascinated by vampires. I'm Forms of fantasy. And we can get into that. But I specifically am interested in kind of the inherent queerness of vampires and the ways in which that's been used to queer bait over time, but also the ways in which we're seeing it canonically in things like the new interview with the Vampire TV show, Is just but I, so there's like a reason why it needed to be vampires for me, specifically for these women, because it comes down to a lot of predator prey and a lot of being a victim in your body by the inherent nature of your body. But its core, this is a story about hunger in all of the forms that hunger takes. And it's a story about vampires. The way Addie LaRue is a story about the devil, which is to say it's a conduit for an exploration of what you would do with time. And loneliness. So if you're not a fan of vampires or that you haven't found the vampires that you wanna become a fan of yet, I would say that this is a story of three women over the course of 500 years and the way their lives deaths and lives interlock.

Jason Blitman: 22:46

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 22:47

about a girl who leads with her head, a girl who leads with her heart, and a girl who leads with her hunger. It's also a revenge tale, but my favorite pitch for it, if you don't like vampires, is a teenage girl named Alice runs away from her life to go to college in a foreign country, wants to get out of her own head one night, and decides to be a new version of herself that's not anxious or afraid or neurotic or any of these things. Ends up having a fabulous one night stand with a strange girl that she meets at a party and wake up the next morning and the girl is gone and she is dead. What the hell happened to Alice?

Jason Blitman: 23:21

I'm like chuckling'cause I'm just so excited people to have the story unfold. There are so many things to address. You brought up your name earlier on. There is a moment in the book and you have, you've talked about your name. On other podcasts and other articles. It is a big topic of conversation. I, and yet there is a nugget in this book where I was like, oh, she is reclaiming Victoria

V.E. Schwab: 23:52

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:53

and there is a character named Lottie in the book, which why I'd never put two and two together, that Lottie was short for Charlotte. But there's Vicki. Thank you. But there's conversation about a name being like food. It has a flavor, and Lottie versus Charlotte. Charlotte has a flavor where Lottie is maybe Lottie. My husband's name is Franklin,

V.E. Schwab: 24:20

Ooh,

Jason Blitman: 24:21

and he does not go by anything other than Franklin,

V.E. Schwab: 24:24

if you're Franklin, you go by Franklin. That's

Jason Blitman: 24:26

There's this very interesting, you talk about your author persona versus your real life person. You talk about about, about gender. There's a lot of reasons why VE is ve, but in this moment, I feel like you're reclaiming Victoria.

V.E. Schwab: 24:41

It's always been, it's so weird, right? Like on the one hand, like I took 27 years to figure out sexuality and gender is still a thing I'm figuring out, right?

Jason Blitman: 24:51

yeah, Yeah,

V.E. Schwab: 24:52

like I don't. I'm constantly on the line between the masculine and the feminine. I originally chose VE because I was working against Fantasy Publishing, and there's a reason that there's a long lineage of and femme presenting people using initials. I got, I had, I would've fans come up to me at events after Shades of Magic and say, oh my God, I'm so glad I didn't know you were a woman. I never would've picked this up. Thank you for proving point. And

Jason Blitman: 25:21

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 25:21

over time, I actually really enjoyed having VE on the books because there's this weird pair of social dynamic wherein a fictional version of me lives in a reader's mind as the author. And it was really important for my own mental health to have a slight separation

Jason Blitman: 25:38

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 25:39

would talk about ve. they wouldn't always say nice things, right? Because they conflate like the book and the author or they would say nice things, but I was like, you don't know me. This is And it was dissociating. And so I realized that having a name that was a slight variation gave me a tiny separation psychically, but also like I have never been anything but Victoria to the people in my life. Like my full name is Victoria Elizabeth, which is what that V is. And like

Jason Blitman: 26:04

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 26:05

not a Vicki. I am not a Tori. I am not a Vic. I sign off my emails V because it's seven letters shorter. But it's a really it's so interesting. It's the one part of me I've never found dysmorphic, like even when the rest of my gender has confused me.

Jason Blitman: 26:19

Mm-hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 26:20

Always been Victoria and names have been a common theme across all of my books. And there's a reason that names are a huge thing within the L-G-B-T-Q community because like sometimes we fit with our name and sometimes we don't and we

Jason Blitman: 26:33

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 26:34

to. Change and to decide, especially in adulthood, what we want to be called. And there's a reason that kind of every character in this book has two names.

Jason Blitman: 26:45

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 26:46

Whether it's a name and a nickname, or a name and a second name, or Like names are intimate

Jason Blitman: 26:54

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 26:54

projective, like they're how we engage externally and internally, like with our family and friends. And then with society at large,

Jason Blitman: 27:02

Yeah. And you also. You say you're Victoria 100%, period. I, for the most part. Am Jason. I know. Who calls me Jay. I know who calls me Jace. I know who calls me jb. Like the, there are, there is you have to earn that too. Yeah,

V.E. Schwab: 27:20

very like. Intricate permission structures.

Jason Blitman: 27:25

yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 27:26

I think that, I think a lot about names, not just as somebody who creates fictional characters, but as somebody who then puts those characters into the world and kind of always wants their characters to feel like real people navigating real time and space. I think

Jason Blitman: 27:39

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 27:40

be something that I think about intensely sometimes. I wish that I could like, almost will such a problematic take. I was gonna say like willingly create a multiple personalities so that like I could willingly compartmentalize myself and then be able to put the neuroses that go with V Schwab away

Jason Blitman: 28:01

Huh.

V.E. Schwab: 28:01

like the neuroses that go with Victoria away and step into a version. Like my friends will be like, why don't you take a vacation? I was like. I cannot take a vacation for myself, Jason what? What am I gonna do here?

Jason Blitman: 28:12

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 28:13

actually step out of this identity,

Jason Blitman: 28:15

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 28:16

I'm not getting away from me.

Jason Blitman: 28:19

No, Anne Patchett talks about being Anne Patchett and being Anne Vandevender. She's at home when she's Anne Vandevender and she's Ann Patchett when she's a public persona. I think, there is a very common element there. You talk about names and names being important in the queer community. There is, you talk about the book being about hunger. For me, so much of the book was about time and. And time in every sense of the word, but so much of it too about time that we have and time of us being who we are. And the vampire component for me was this metaphor of the fraternity of queerness.

V.E. Schwab: 29:05

absolutely. Great. Take an amazing take. And this thing, obviously there's multiple motifs. There's multiple translations. But at its core, and that's why I say there's parts of this book that are for me, and it's

Jason Blitman: 29:16

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 29:17

other readers don't pick up on them, but this is the one of those ones that I'm really glad that you did. Because for me, someone who came out in their late twenties, and it's not like I wasn't in the closet for 13 years before that. Like it took it like I was maybe in the closet for two years, right?

Jason Blitman: 29:30

Hmm,

V.E. Schwab: 29:31

Of that, you know, when you come out in adulthood instead of your childhood or teenage years, you have a grief for the version of you that you never got to be.

Jason Blitman: 29:39

hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 29:39

Of time thinking about like what my teenage years could have been like, what my young adulthood could have been like if I hadn't. Been like so opaque to myself if I hadn't, So many beautiful firsts and I lost the ability to live like a life I would've really liked. And I do everything I can to make up for it now. But like I get so sad when I think about 14 and 16 and 18-year-old. Like it's the only thing that makes me emotional. Nothing in this

Jason Blitman: 30:07

Hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 30:07

Jason, except for this, but like think in a lot of ways Alice and Charlotte and Sabine represent the three like almost eras of coming out.

Jason Blitman: 30:18

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 30:18

is somebody who knows exactly who she is and is completely unapologetic. And Alice really represents me at like the beginning of my coming out journey and all of that insecurity. And she's not insecure about being gay, but she's just insecure about being human

Jason Blitman: 30:35

Yeah. Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 30:36

out and like living in authentic form. And then Charlotte is the like emotional InBetween where that was my twenties, like trying to figure it out. For me, I think I was like putting a lot of my grief and processing about what I didn't get to live. And that's why the heart of this book it's about toxicity as, that's the reason I jokingly call it toxic lesbian vam empires. It's about the toxic romance that can evolve you're so intoxicated by somebody getting to see who you are and your true self for the Time. That even if it's the wrong person seeing you, the fact is Maria finds herself with the widow and it's the first person who ever tells her there's another way to live.

Jason Blitman: 31:21

Mm-hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 31:21

And then Charlotte finds herself with Sabine telling her there's another way to live. And Alice sees in Charlotte and in Sabine another way to live. And it's just that sense of you spend so long feeling like you'll never get to be who you actually want to be. And then someone comes into your life and says, I can show you how. And all of us have had that in the queer community, have had some mentor figure, even

Jason Blitman: 31:47

Right?

V.E. Schwab: 31:48

out to not be good for us. We are so emotionally entrenched with those initial figures who That we could live an authentic self.

Jason Blitman: 31:57

I literally had someone on a OL instant messenger asked me like, do you like boys? And that was the first time I ever admitted to somebody else that the answer was yes.

V.E. Schwab: 32:11

and it gives me chills because I.

Jason Blitman: 32:13

That's what this book is about,

V.E. Schwab: 32:14

We don't always get it. And the

Jason Blitman: 32:16

right?

V.E. Schwab: 32:16

the re people, I put myself into all three women. I am most Sabine, which feels weird to say'cause she is the like super villain at the heart of the story. But the thing about Sabine is that like she's the one who most represents me because she's the one who genuinely didn't know

Jason Blitman: 32:32

Yeah. Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 32:33

She just thought that she was doing it wrong. She thought something like, she obviously didn't care as much as I cared because that's not part of Sabine's character, but like she in a hetero presenting relationship unwillingly. But because society expects this of her and she's miserable, Like I spent my teens and twenties because every time I wasn't attracted to a guy who checked all the boxes, who on paper seemed like everything I should want, I just assumed I was broken. Assumed and everyone would say, oh, you went to an all girls school, like you just didn't have the right exposure. You must just, you just need to try harder. You need to let your guard, oh, it's your anxiety, it's your depression, something else getting in your way. You are getting in your own way. And it's like took somebody else coming into my life and being like, what if you just don't like guys? For me to Like, what do you mean I haven't been fucking up for 27 years? So I think that this was the most cathartic thing I've ever written, but it's also why it's the most frightening for me.

Jason Blitman: 33:38

absolutely. And thank you for sharing all of that. I, it's my compulsion 14-year-old Jason's compulsion is to say it wasn't so great.

V.E. Schwab: 33:50

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:51

Like you talk about being jealous, you didn't have that time. And I'm thinking like, God, I wish I didn't have that time. So it's No, no, no. Right. There's no winning and it's,

V.E. Schwab: 34:02

I went to an all girls southern preparatory school.

Jason Blitman: 34:04

yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 34:05

and it's so funny'cause you talked to me at 16. I was madly in love with my best friend. every single sign was there.

Jason Blitman: 34:13

Right,

V.E. Schwab: 34:13

A homophobic environment that like, even if I had been self-aware, I think it would've been worse. Instead, I just thought, oh, everyone's in love with their best friend.

Jason Blitman: 34:22

Hmm

V.E. Schwab: 34:22

just, That's just how it is. I, my heart flutters when she hugs me, like when she touches my hand, all these things, that's just called being a teenager. Right?

Jason Blitman: 34:30

hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 34:31

Out and I would try and date boys and I would just, I don't have siblings, but I can only imagine that's like how it felt kissing siblings where I just was like, oh, something's genuinely just broken up in here, just

Jason Blitman: 34:41

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 34:43

So I think you're probably right in that there, at that age, there probably is no winning and

Jason Blitman: 34:47

and frankly the, those who I know who did win at that time, their life isn't so cute now.

V.E. Schwab: 34:52

Great. Those of us in our mid to late thirties are doing great. But I also, it's really interesting. I felt an immense pressure the moment I

Jason Blitman: 34:59

Mm hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 35:01

I, because I'm a public figure and

Jason Blitman: 35:03

Yeah. And you had been for years.

V.E. Schwab: 35:06

And I felt like if I can't be brave enough to be honest, how would I ever expect like one of my teenage readers to feel Right? Like where's my, like of course there's a danger to it, but I don't live at home. My parents are supportive. It took some time, we worked on it, but they're supportive. Have as much to lose.

Jason Blitman: 35:27

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 35:28

and so if I can't live authentically and like model that you can also be successful. You can also be like happy maybe neurotic and stuff, but that's just, that was gonna be me. Whether I

Jason Blitman: 35:37

That's inherent.

V.E. Schwab: 35:38

That was just, that was just part of the package.

Jason Blitman: 35:40

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 35:42

But yeah, I I'm not sure it would've been easier

Jason Blitman: 35:45

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 35:46

I just, I look at like the media and the lack of it, and I think oh, if I had more examples than like Willow and Tara, maybe it wouldn't have taken me 27

Jason Blitman: 35:57

Mm-hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 35:57

That's part of why I write what I write is like in the hopes of some 18-year-old somewhere being like, oh shit.

Jason Blitman: 36:04

Yeah. I see me. Yeah. Ugh. I just wanna hug little Victoria.

V.E. Schwab: 36:09

Poor little Victoria had a real rough go.

Jason Blitman: 36:12

Ugh. So much of the book to me is about freedom.

V.E. Schwab: 36:16

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:17

What does it mean? For you to be free. What does it mean for Victoria? What does freedom mean?

V.E. Schwab: 36:24

Some of it is stuff I'll never have. The fact is I was chatting with somebody a couple days ago on a different podcast about Alice Alice. Murders men in this book specifically murders an attempted rapist, and then entraps a potential rapist. And the fact is like, that's pretty harsh, right? And not all men totally true, but there will not be a day that I move out into the world and them not frightened in some

Jason Blitman: 36:49

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 36:50

fact of the body that I possess. Like would be absolute freedom. The fact In the book when Alice realizes she's no longer the thing to be afraid, but the thing to be afraid of, I can't think of anything better than that. And so in a

Jason Blitman: 37:04

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 37:04

weird way, like I want that, but in publishing,'cause I spent more than a decade feeling like I was one mistake or one. Mediocre sales track away from losing everything.

Jason Blitman: 37:20

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 37:21

part just because I started really young and I had really toxic early relationships with my publishers and publishing before I came to tour. And it was intimated to me continuously that if I failed, it was my fault. Of course, if I succeeded, it was everyone else's

Jason Blitman: 37:36

Right.

V.E. Schwab: 37:37

at 25, I almost quit because I, I got a series canceled. was told it was my fault. I obviously didn't do enough to sell books. God forbid the publisher had anything to do with that. And then after that, because that happened at such a, a really important age and an important time, it was like my third book, right? I carried that trauma forward to the point where I am now like one of the top selling fantasy authors. And at least twice a year, my editor still has to be like, no one is mad at you and you're not gonna lose. It's gonna be okay because I just carry in me this fear that, oh, the moment that you're too queer, the moment that you're too f the moment that you aren't, your books aren't loud enough or commercial enough or epic enough and the sales dip, Those successes are the only reason that you're tolerated. That's in part a lie and it's in part experience. And so I think freedom for me is a thing I have fought for very hard to have in publishing, which is creative freedom.

Jason Blitman: 38:38

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 38:39

I'll never have full bodily freedom in this world. It's a scary place to be queer. It's a scary place to be femme. It's a scary place to be. A lot of things to be, I have it a lot better than many people. I am aggressively white. Look at me, I live in Scotland. There's not an ounce of sunlight around here. But I think that the freedom that I

Jason Blitman: 38:58

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 38:58

That I hold most important to me at this point is a creative freedom, and it's a That I've gotten to have because of readers, because they believed in me and they stuck with me, and they followed me from book to book, and they grew and they held space for me to try new things. A lot of Feel like they're bound to one product, and the moment you leave that product, say it was a trilogy or a a massive title, but because Addie Larou is my 20th, like millions of readers were already there with me.

Jason Blitman: 39:29

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 39:30

and they, because of that, the thing they have intimated to me again and again through their voice online, but also just through sales, is that they are giving me a creative freedom to make and to try strange things. And the flip side of that deal for me is that I will never not swing for the fences. Like you might love the book, you might hate the book, but I will never phone in. Anything that I do, I will try my absolute hardest to tell. Not a perfect story.'cause a lesson I've learned over time is that perfection doesn't exist in a book. Like the moment we

Jason Blitman: 40:06

Yeah. Or anywhere.

V.E. Schwab: 40:07

no, it doesn't exist.

Jason Blitman: 40:08

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 40:09

in the arts. But I will, I will create with purpose That every single book that goes onto shelves is achieving exactly what I wanted it to. And that to me is a creative freedom. It's a creative freedom. I'm terrified of having rescinded, it's a creative That I presently have.

Jason Blitman: 40:27

Amazing. I love that. Thank you for sharing all of that and in this world where like things are so much about money and all we know for all we know tomorrow, everyone is waking up and saying, no one's reading anymore. We're not publishing books anymore. You know, It's like, oh God, okay well, what do we do now?

V.E. Schwab: 40:43

This is like one of the biggest books of the year. And at the same time. in the uk, my these tote bags that went out to all these indie bookstores that you can get, say, toxic lesbian vampires. And I

Jason Blitman: 40:54

hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 40:55

That we couldn't do it in the States because it would target harassment toward the indie bookstores that stalked them. And

Jason Blitman: 41:02

Wow.

V.E. Schwab: 41:03

And I know there are certain things that this book won't get by simple virtue of the fact that sometimes certain parts of the country decide, it's not gonna be a certain book club picks Because it's unapologetic. But it was also so important to me to write something unapologetic that if it means it doesn't get certain things, then it just means that the champions champion a little harder.

Jason Blitman: 41:25

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Completely changing gears to May maybe more fun. I was gonna say funner things. We could s

V.E. Schwab: 41:33

like twice on this and I'm not an emotional person, so what the fuck? But like

Jason Blitman: 41:38

laugh, we cry. This is gay's reading Victoria, come on.

V.E. Schwab: 41:42

a Monday. Also, I'm gonna be very honest with you, I've had so few opportunities to be on gay and queer media, Means so much to me because I think for a long time I tried to assimilate so hard that a lot of people didn't even realize that I was part of the queer community. And like, I don't think I realized like,

Jason Blitman: 42:00

No, I.

V.E. Schwab: 42:02

I don't think I realized how badly I like really wanted to have conversations like with my own community.

Jason Blitman: 42:10

Yeah, I um, I, no, this is it.

V.E. Schwab: 42:21

do you want my cats like cleaning his ass behind, which I just feel like is the most

Jason Blitman: 42:26

Oh my God. This is, I told you that one of the first things I said was, this is a safe space. We both know that our therapists are out of town. Oh my God. What are we doing to ourselves?

V.E. Schwab: 42:35

so sorry.

Jason Blitman: 42:37

No, don't be sorry. I think that is why, not only was this book so important to me, but like in producing gays reading. I make it a point for 50% or more of the authors to be queer in some capacity. I have a guest gay reader on every episode and some of it too, and they're not always authors, sometimes they're like, Margaret Cho was one. And there's, it's a person that you don't always equate with reading, but it is a queer person who is championing books. And that is so important and powerful to me too. And I don't get to talk to a lot of queer people

V.E. Schwab: 43:16

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:18

and I don't always see a version of myself on the page. And the experience of the emotional experience of remembering what it felt like for an older queer person to take me under their wing was what I took from this book. And it was something I haven't felt in such a long time.

V.E. Schwab: 43:39

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 43:41

You know, And so like, and I am not a vampire book person.

V.E. Schwab: 43:45

But I love that for you though, that

Jason Blitman: 43:47

yeah,

V.E. Schwab: 43:48

obviously like that this book to genre readers, but also that it appeals to like readers who aren't in that genre. The thing is At its heart, whenever I say the word fantasy, I think people hear it with a capital F. And I don't mean it that way. For me, the fantasy is anything which departs from reality in some

Jason Blitman: 44:06

yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 44:07

And some stories take massive leaps off the stepping stone of reality and some just inch their toes over the edge. And I think one of the reasons it's so important, I like to write stories that inch their toes over the edge. And I think it's because it brings magic into our world.

Jason Blitman: 44:21

Hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 44:21

You that the only way you'll experience that magic is through the book, instead it says, Hey, look around. Like maybe been here the whole time. And it's, In acting in parallel with the concept of queerness and the fact that queer people have always been around and we act like it's some kind of newness. We don't, but like the media will act

Jason Blitman: 44:39

yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 44:40

is brand new. And I'm like,

Jason Blitman: 44:41

Yeah,

V.E. Schwab: 44:42

fucking with me right now? We've always been there and like queerness as community and as like nucleic and as finding each other and like clinging. To each other. I also think it's one of the reasons that some of us, when we're younger, end up in some bad fucking relationships because we're so happy to be some version of real.

Jason Blitman: 45:04

it is so funny. You said happy and my first word was desperate,

V.E. Schwab: 45:07

Yes. I

Jason Blitman: 45:08

so No. I was like, oh, it's interesting that you went positive and my brain went negative, and I'm typically a glass half full person.

V.E. Schwab: 45:14

it's all an extension of the crumbs, right? We talk about

Jason Blitman: 45:17

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 45:17

queer books or any queer media gets, and it's crumbs. I'll remember I had a vampire show called First Kill and like I, people were like, why do we need this? We have Carmilla. And I'm like, Would you, no one is out here watching Vampire Diaries being like, why do we need this? We have no Spiro. Are you,

Jason Blitman: 45:35

Yep.

V.E. Schwab: 45:36

But for some reason, because you take something and you have queer content, they're like, oh, you only need one of those.

Jason Blitman: 45:41

Mm-hmm.

V.E. Schwab: 45:41

We're so used and in the book industry, we're so used to being marginalia that this is center, this is focused, but it's one of the reasons, it's I don't even want it to be limited by the bounds of a fantasy reader because it's just fiction.

Jason Blitman: 45:55

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 45:56

storytelling. The number of

Jason Blitman: 45:57

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 45:57

me that they love Addie LaRue and one breath, and in the next day they don't read fantasy. I'm like, bitch, what do you think? You read like it's a deal with the devil over 300 years.

Jason Blitman: 46:07

And also it's also funny'cause there are other books where fantasy gets away with calling itself magical realism.

V.E. Schwab: 46:13

yeah. And that's totally different.

Jason Blitman: 46:15

And or like for me, I am I'm that first I'm the person who says I am quote unquote, not a fantasy person. One of my favorite movies is How To Train Your Dragon. So like, right. so

V.E. Schwab: 46:25

It's the people who are like, I don't want, I don't like fantasy. And in the next breath they're like, yeah, but severance rocks. I'm like, I just don't know how to break this to you.

Jason Blitman: 46:33

Tell me about the reality of that. Come on, we,

V.E. Schwab: 46:35

you love. Almost like 90% of media is fantastical.

Jason Blitman: 46:41

yeah. So you just talked about seeing the magic in every day. What is something that happened to you recently? Or what is magic that you've seen recently in the every day?

V.E. Schwab: 46:51

I see. I live in Scotland. I see a lot of

Jason Blitman: 46:53

Ugh. Okay.

V.E. Schwab: 46:55

there's I like a very archaic style of magic. I spend a lot of time like kind of marveling at the natural world, which Woo. I I'm a Pagan card carrying Pagan and one of the reasons that I love living in Scotland is even though it obviously now has like Christian facades to it, it never has lost its reverence for it. Like pagan roots, we Festivals three to four times a year. They're big. And the thing is the same way that you don't really have to believe in ghosts. And you can come to a city and you can be like, this place is haunted. So many people don't

Jason Blitman: 47:27

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 47:27

go to New Orleans and are like, this place is haunted to the teeth. There is something about the natural world in Scotland. It just feels so big. And I'm not even sure Magic. It's more like there are some people who look up at the night sky and the sight of the number of stars makes them feel small. And that's the worst feeling in the world for me. I'm somebody who, the side of stars makes me feel small in the best possible way. I like it when the natural world feels like it's an order of magnitude outside of my fathoming. I, it's such a nerdy thing, but I don't know if I like, listened to a podcast about a lot of the UFO briefings

Jason Blitman: 48:10

Oh,

V.E. Schwab: 48:10

like the scientists behind the UFO briefings are like trying to help us understand that they're not talking about like little green aliens. They're talking about our boundaries of perceptual reality is that like any living life form can only perceive one order of magnitude in every direction. So like for instance, we can't understand atoms because they're an order of magnitude outside of our physical perception. We can't see that

Jason Blitman: 48:32

right. So therefore they're, they don't exist.

V.E. Schwab: 48:35

And so a lot of the talk right now about like unidentified and unexplainable phenomena is the concept that it's science that exists more than one degree of separation

Jason Blitman: 48:47

Interesting.

V.E. Schwab: 48:47

degree, one order of magnitude outside of perception. Of magic as like that, where it's It's just something that's either too big. For us to fathom or too small for us to notice.

Jason Blitman: 49:01

huh. It's so interesting that we're talking about this right now because we had a friend stay with us this weekend and it was a full moon. We did tarot cards. We watched like a deep blue documentary Something that we talked about was each of us expressed how at different points in our lives we've experienced an understanding that was confusing to us. And something that we thought about was like, is it atoms of ours that happen to be two steps ahead of us that we don't even realize? Right? Like we, we literally will never understand because we, because we can't.

V.E. Schwab: 49:41

But a version of this happens in creativity that I find so fascinating, which is that sometimes you will write something and then you'll get like another 250 pages ahead and realize that you seeded something for yourself that you did not decide. But it's like another part of your mind made that decision that you would need it later. And it's this kind of almost kismet sensation that your brain on some level knew what it wanted the entire time and was showing you and your consciousness how to comprehend it.

Jason Blitman: 50:14

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 50:15

And it is a really weird psychic experience, especially for someone who likes to say that they play God when they write. I, when I sit down to write, I know everything. Like by the time I sit down to pen and novel, I know every single scene for every single character. And it is like an execution of a cosmos in my head that I wanna get on paper. It's extremely analytical.

Jason Blitman: 50:37

What did your therapist say about that?

V.E. Schwab: 50:39

Yeah, I have a control problem, I have an absolute need to be in control of everything all the time. It extends to hypervigilance from my childhood. It's really a problem. Not great at seeding any form of control. Writing books, great. Living in publishing, terrible.

Jason Blitman: 50:55

Sure.

V.E. Schwab: 50:56

you get to play God and then you are just in the abyss. But

Jason Blitman: 51:00

So you know everything about your characters.

V.E. Schwab: 51:02

I know everything. I know

Jason Blitman: 51:03

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 51:04

they're gonna take everything they're gonna do. There are some

Jason Blitman: 51:06

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 51:07

but nothing like. That's not germane to them. That's like I feel like has knocked me off balance. So then when my brain does something like that where I realize that a very clever thing that I thought was almost a throwaway characteristic that I didn't even really know why I gave that to a character, To play a huge role in that character's personhood. It is the closest I feel to an almost religious experience.

Jason Blitman: 51:34

Interesting. Do you, I feel I, this is not a gotcha question, nor like a, this is not book trivia, but something I happened to notice and I feel like of course you knew, but maybe you didn't know and that's okay. The word wonderland comes up a couple times,

V.E. Schwab: 51:52

I have 10 and a half words I come back to in

Jason Blitman: 51:54

Uhhuh,

V.E. Schwab: 51:55

over the, like in Addie it was, I know'cause somebody made a meme of it and it was like Samuel Jackson being like, St. Pal says One more time I definitely said it like seven times. I I hadn't noticed it yet for Wonderland though.

Jason Blitman: 52:10

I think maybe it's two or three, but it does feel intentional in terms of down a rabbit hole, Alice. Exactly. Exactly.

V.E. Schwab: 52:18

is named for. And

Jason Blitman: 52:19

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 52:20

I think that's probably intentional if it ever shows up and it's not in relation to her, I would be surprised. But yeah, I mean she's on this really weird, trippy

Jason Blitman: 52:30

yeah. Uhhuh.

V.E. Schwab: 52:32

at night trying to find vampires that she's are these real? What's happening to me?

Jason Blitman: 52:37

I know. And also like having just finished White Lotus, there were elements of, we don't need to go down that rabbit, talk about rabbit holes to go down.

V.E. Schwab: 52:46

I'm

Jason Blitman: 52:46

Um, Which part are you mad about?

V.E. Schwab: 52:50

I'm mad about Chelsea. We didn't also, I'm sorry. From the moment we saw either, I was like, you made a casting choice. But from the moment we saw the guy playing Walter Goggins, not dad, I was like,

Jason Blitman: 53:02

We knew it was.

V.E. Schwab: 53:03

a dad, obviously. Like they have the exact same face. They have the

Jason Blitman: 53:08

Also just the way he was talking about it and like the kind of man that the dad was even before we saw him, I was like, oh that's gonna be his dad.

V.E. Schwab: 53:14

Oh my, you're gonna shoot your dad. You're gonna shoot your dad. But yeah,

Jason Blitman: 53:18

I know. No, that's actually so funny. And sorry to spoiler alerts to the White Lotus fans, it's been out at this point. This episodes comes out in June, so if you haven't finished. Yeah. There you say something about the rule of threes in bare our Bones, and Chelsea is talking about the rule of threes in White Lotus. What is your three? Three bears, three pigs, three. You know what's yours?

V.E. Schwab: 53:43

three for me is everything though. Everything

Jason Blitman: 53:46

Oh.

V.E. Schwab: 53:46

bad things, good things. Eving. I am also, shockingly, minutes into this. I'm a very neurotic person and I'm also a very addictive person. And so I have to be careful in my own life not to let things happen in threes because if something happens once, it's an accident, two times, it's a pattern, three times, it's an addiction. So I am like a very ritual forming person, and if I do something, a repetitive action, whatever it is, good or bad, legal or illegal I will start like becoming encumbered by like the need to do it. It will become,

Jason Blitman: 54:24

Interesting.

V.E. Schwab: 54:25

become like, a compulsion.

Jason Blitman: 54:27

Huh?

V.E. Schwab: 54:28

th patterns is actually something I actively avoid.

Jason Blitman: 54:31

the wade.

V.E. Schwab: 54:32

I think about threes a lot with books. It's obviously, trilogies obviously beats within beats. Like threes are everything in barrier. Our bones, it's three women, Different traumatic relationships, it's three it's everything. And so like in Addie, it was three centuries in, a lot of my books, they tend to come in triplets, but I think that's just kind of a hearkening back to folklore and fairytale. I

Jason Blitman: 54:57

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 54:58

my books, even when they're

Jason Blitman: 54:59

I,

V.E. Schwab: 54:59

in time and place to have a timeless quality to the reading. I want it to feel like something that could have been written a hundred years ago or a hundred years from now. I wanted to feel slightly timeless. And I think that there, I always have a nod back to archetypal structures and And threes come up so much in folklore and fairytale and fable that I think our mind latches onto them.

Jason Blitman: 55:23

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 55:24

in sentence structure, I look for a three beat within the sentence. I look for a certain number of syllables. Everything has a rhythm to it.

Jason Blitman: 55:31

Interesting. I love so you're mad about Chelsea'cause you are Chelsea.

V.E. Schwab: 55:36

I wish I was, I would date Chelsea. I am not Chelsea. I am unfortunately, probably more Walter Goggins, but but no, I am,

Jason Blitman: 55:44

Did.

V.E. Schwab: 55:44

I love Chelsea. She is the exact opposite of my personality

Jason Blitman: 55:48

Yeah no, of course. It was more of the like rule of spiritual rule of threes element that she was bringing to the table.

V.E. Schwab: 55:56

In everything. Like I'm

Jason Blitman: 55:58

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 55:59

much rather you try and disprove something than prove something. I go into the world with just like a level of openness to like, I think it's very easy to not believe in ghosts or supernatural things until you have a personal experience. And then it's really hard not to. And like

Jason Blitman: 56:15

Yeah.

V.E. Schwab: 56:15

made it to my early twenties without ever having a supernatural experience. And then I had one living in a really haunted house in the Liverpool suburbs and it was awful. But I like

Jason Blitman: 56:26

Wow.

V.E. Schwab: 56:26

really not have an openness to it because I had an ex a, a, an experience with my own senses where it's

Jason Blitman: 56:34

Hmm

V.E. Schwab: 56:34

well Now I either distrust my senses perpetually or acknowledge that something I could not explain happened. And living in a place like Scotland, you just learn to be like I'm just gonna be open to it. And then if someone has something that's disproving, sure, but what a waste of energy disproving things.

Jason Blitman: 56:51

Well, It's back to the stars thing. I look up at the stars and I'm just like, this is amazing. I am so small in this universe. There is, how could I even think that I understand a fraction of what is happening in this world? Yeah,

V.E. Schwab: 57:07

you watch that deep blue documentary. The thing about that is you learn that we know two, we have mapped like two to 3% of the ocean,

Jason Blitman: 57:13

right.

V.E. Schwab: 57:13

I'm also like, fuck the ocean. Now. I have I have a lot of respect for it. I have no

Jason Blitman: 57:17

I know, but it's horrifying.

V.E. Schwab: 57:20

like I like, thank you. You, you are full of small gods and I love that for you. But also

Jason Blitman: 57:25

Yes.

V.E. Schwab: 57:26

not my territory. That is the equivalent to fairy. Like we are

Jason Blitman: 57:30

The thing that's the thing that scares me about that is I'm like, we've explored space and space is so far away. The ocean is here.

V.E. Schwab: 57:38

I know. I know. I started in astrophysics. That's what I was supposed to be an astrophysicist. You can see how far we've come from that. But but yeah, I think I have a, I have a real reverence. the scale of the universe and you would think it would ground me more when I'm feeling particularly anxious and neurotic, but yet I still seem to be a universe of one for my own feelings.

Jason Blitman: 58:00

We everyone is here for you. Let's, we're expanding our universe. We're expanding our universe.

V.E. Schwab: 58:05

by the time this airs, I'll have I don't know, done some deep meditation. I'll love me at peace.

Jason Blitman: 58:11

Oh my God. I have a gajillion more things I could talk to you about, but our time has run out. Everyone

V.E. Schwab: 58:19

read the book.

Jason Blitman: 58:20

go read, bury Our Bones in the Midnight soil. Learn what that means. Enjoy the toxic lesbian vampires. What are other things that I should say people should keep an eye out for? I'm cur everyone. Think about what your charms and pendants are. It's a question I have for everybody. Um,

V.E. Schwab: 58:39

With time.

Jason Blitman: 58:40

what you do with time.

V.E. Schwab: 58:42

if you didn't have normal things to be afraid of,

Jason Blitman: 58:46

Yes. Yes. Think about your wants versus your needs, versus your desires versus your necessities. These are all of my, the things that are swirling around.

V.E. Schwab: 58:55

Think about what you'd miss. I

Jason Blitman: 58:57

Oh.

V.E. Schwab: 58:58

miss if you didn't get to be human anymore.

Jason Blitman: 59:01

Can I ask what you would miss? Can we leave on that question?

V.E. Schwab: 59:04

Oh, I'd miss dark chocolate.

Jason Blitman: 59:06

What a good answer.

V.E. Schwab: 59:08

It really upsetting to me probably that, how quickly I answered that because like I definitely would also miss my friends and family. I feel like that's obvious, but I wouldn't necessarily have to give them up wherein

Jason Blitman: 59:17

Correct. Correct. In the context of this book, you would not be able to eat dark chocolate, right? Totally fair. Victoria vi Schwab, thank you so much for being here.

V.E. Schwab: 59:28

you Jason. This was a joy. It healed something in me.

Jason Blitman: 59:32

Such a joy,

Harper!: 59:33

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 59:35

Your room is giving optical illusion.

Melissa Febos: 59:38

I know I was, I like to joke that I have created the solution to make myself seem taller.'cause I'm very short. So it looks like I'm a

Jason Blitman: 59:46

You look massive.

Melissa Febos: 59:49

but I'm actually like five foot nothing. No, I just have a gable roof here and then I have wallpaper on this and then I'm also standing, I have a booster'cause I use a treadmill on my desk and so I, I actually have a four inch. Yeah, I am.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:03

I'm jealous I say that, but I'm jealous.

Melissa Febos: 1:00:06

It's really just like my back problems got the best of me. And I was like, I hate being in pain. What do I do? And my chiropractor was like, just walk slowly all the time. And I was like, fuck you. Fine, fine. I'll do it.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:18

I am worried I would fall over.

Melissa Febos: 1:00:21

it's not going fast enough to fall over, unfortunately. It's

Jason Blitman: 1:00:25

even if you're just like slowly mo, as you're typing, it's really not an

Melissa Febos: 1:00:28

there definitely are moments where I'm like, oh, I gotta put my Fitbit in my socks, so my steps count and I'm like, forget that I need to be walking and will lift one. I'm like a very clumsy person, so I'm not gonna say it hasn't happened, but for regular people I think it's pretty unlikely.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:43

also relatively clumsy, so I'm hearing what you're saying. I'm taking it in fit. Wait, Fitbit in your sock.

Melissa Febos: 1:00:51

The steps don't count if the Fitbit doesn't know that I took them. So I put

Jason Blitman: 1:00:56

From your wrist. It doesn't,

Melissa Febos: 1:00:57

and when you're

Jason Blitman: 1:00:58

'cause it's because it's, that's how slow you're moving.

Melissa Febos: 1:01:01

No. When you're typing, your hands aren't moving.'cause the Fitbit counts when you swing your arms. And so when I'm typing at my desk, it doesn't count my steps. So I put it in my sock.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:10

Wait, this is a brilliant hack.

Melissa Febos: 1:01:12

I know.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:13

Thank God I have yet to order a desk treadmill because I'd be, I wouldn't, none of it would count this

Melissa Febos: 1:01:19

I know it would just be wasted energy

Jason Blitman: 1:01:21

Oh my

Melissa Febos: 1:01:21

dumping it in the garbage. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:23

All right, Melissa FBOs, you like really messed up My guest gay reader thing. Welcome to Gay's Reading. I complained about you first, and then I said welcome. That was like the wrong order.

Melissa Febos: 1:01:36

was, yeah, it was also very gay, so I appreciate it.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:41

Here's a read. It's nice to meet you.

Melissa Febos: 1:01:43

That's right. Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:45

So part of why I did this guest gay reader component is because there were too many books for me to read and have and talk about with the author. So I was like, oh, if I do this other segment and we don't really talk about the book, then I don't have to read the book because then I, if I talk to someone about the book, then I a hundred percent always read the book.

Melissa Febos: 1:02:04

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:05

But girl, I started your book and I was like, dammit. Now I wanna finish it. I still haven't finished it, to be very clear. But I can't wait to, I'm so excited.

Melissa Febos: 1:02:13

Oh, thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:14

But before we get into that, as my guest, gay reader, Melissa, I have to know, what are you reading?

Melissa Febos: 1:02:19

Okay. I just finished the hottest book. It was so satisfying and it was also high art. It's the Safe Keep by Yayel Vander Wooten.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:29

knew you were gonna say that

Melissa Febos: 1:02:30

How did you know? Is it because I'm a lesbian?

Jason Blitman: 1:02:33

No, because I've been recommending it to every human. I know because it is so hot. It is high art and I'm obsessed with it.

Melissa Febos: 1:02:42

It just hits, it hits every mark. I was like, thank you. This is what I am looking for. I want a beautiful gorgeously written, incredibly compelling, extremely hot, extremely gay, has a twist at the end, and I can read it in 24 hours. It just, it was like perfect.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:02

Yes, Gothic queer, literary. I am a gold star gay. I literally don't even think I've ever watched a woman in porn

Melissa Febos: 1:03:15

Aw,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:16

and this was hot. It like freaking turned me on.

Melissa Febos: 1:03:21

whole chapters that are just sex I had no idea what I was getting into. I was like, I had just been reading some trash. I was like traveling and reading kind of trashy mysteries and I was like, let me read a real book. I heard that this book is gay and, but nobody, I hadn't really talked to anybody about it, so I had no expectations, which was dreamy. I was like, you've gotta be kidding me. When I got a third of the way through

Jason Blitman: 1:03:44

I could talk about it all day. I, it's so good. I made my husband read it. I've made so many friends read

Melissa Febos: 1:03:48

I, my wife just finished it. I was like, have you read it yet? She was like, I'm going to.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:54

I know, right? It's so good. Is there anything else that you're reading I thought you looked at as though you were looking at a list You don't have

Melissa Febos: 1:04:00

'Cause I just was looking around thinking about what to tell you. Okay. So I also, in reading Jamie Hood's trauma plot which is. Excellent. It's it takes its name from this article that actually my work was also named. And that's about memoir and like writing about trauma and, and Jamie Hood is just so smart and thoughtful, and so it's about being a survivor of rape, but it brings in so many other sources and Greek mythology and other texts, and it's just like deeply intelligent deeply empathic, like incredibly thoughtful. I was like, I don't know, this doesn't feel, before I started it, I was like, I don't know if I really need to read. A book like that right now, everything is so bad. Like I don't need to feel worse. And it didn't make me feel worse. It was actually thought provoking and inspiring. So strong recommend.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:52

love that it doesn't say a novel, it doesn't say a memoir. It says a life

Melissa Febos: 1:04:58

That's right. Yeah. She's this is my life's work. Thinking deeply experiencing things, some of them horrible. And, describing my beautiful thoughts about it for you in a way that is both entertaining, thought provoking and I don't know, like hope inducing maybe.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:13

Yeah. Is that even a thing now? No. No. I feel like nothing

Melissa Febos: 1:05:18

yeah, as I said it, I was like, what are you talking about? Hope is dead. Nobody

Jason Blitman: 1:05:21

I was like, hope inducing put it in my veins right

Melissa Febos: 1:05:25

Yeah. I'm like, good luck. I just wanna feel okay right now. Can you do that for me?

Jason Blitman: 1:05:30

I wanna feel a little bit, okay. What is that like? Love on the spectrum is doing that for me.

Melissa Febos: 1:05:36

Oh, someone was just telling me, they were giving me the, have you watched it yet? And I was like, I haven't, but yeah, they were like, just trust me.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:44

It is, when Great British Bakeoff first came out in the States and everyone was like, oh, it's so endearing. Everyone's so nice to each other. It just makes me happy. That's what this is. It's oh you're rooting for them. They're so sweet. You love them. And frankly, it's giving the world empathy for people who are on the spectrum and you're learning in a way you didn't even know you needed.

Melissa Febos: 1:06:05

That feels like just what the doctor ordered because my general fair in TV tends to be like pretty murdery. Not true crime, but like police procedural, like BBC, police, procedural. But I just can't hang. I'm like too delicate. I'm like, I need something that makes me feel good, but I don't even know where to turn'cause that's never what I watch. So this sounds right. The great British bakeoff got me through the pandemic. I was just walking very slowly on my treadmill, watching every single season of the great British Bake Off.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:31

And you were like, why does my ankle hurt? And you were like, oh, my Fitbit.

Melissa Febos: 1:06:33

like, nevermind. Don't

Jason Blitman: 1:06:35

just my Fitbit.

Melissa Febos: 1:06:36

See what the challenge is.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:38

Interesting cr Yeah. Crime. I can't do murders. Murders and crime, especially true crime.'cause I'm like, this is gonna happen to me.

Melissa Febos: 1:06:49

That's not good for me either. I'm just like, I don't. One actual I have, I already have horrible nightmares. Like every night. I do not need that kind of fodder for it. Or like vividly thinking about my worst nightmare of some fucking creep, crawling in the window of my house.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:04

I remember, I can't rem, I don't know if it was a, I don't remember if it was like a story kids told each other in school to scare each other, or if it was like actually. A Murdery story, but I, there was like the story of someone who was at asleep at night and put his hand beneath his bed to check to make sure his dog was there and the dog licked his hand only to discover later that it was like the murderer under the bed. Again, this might be like childhood

Melissa Febos: 1:07:36

I love the licking though, that it's not just a murderer, it's like also a pervert.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:41

Yes. Terrible.

Melissa Febos: 1:07:44

Oh

Jason Blitman: 1:07:45

So anyway, things like that, I'm like, I

Melissa Febos: 1:07:47

Yeah. No, don't put it

Jason Blitman: 1:07:49

my bed. I don't want to put, there's no room under my bed for a person.

Melissa Febos: 1:07:52

No. I have a very active imagination. I can't really have that in there. It has to be like only like very formulaic, fictional murder.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:00

Yes. I need to know that it cannot happen.

Melissa Febos: 1:08:03

that's right. And it also happened across the pond

Jason Blitman: 1:08:05

Angela Lansbury is solving the crime. And it happened at like a tea shop,

Melissa Febos: 1:08:10

That's right. That's right.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:12

The dry season.

Melissa Febos: 1:08:14

There it is.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:15

I, there are so many things about it that are surprising to me for listeners, can you have what do you have, like a one-liner about what the book is?

Melissa Febos: 1:08:24

Sure. I was in nonstop relationships until I was in my mid thirties and I had a horrible breakup and decided to spend a year celibate, and it ended up being the best year of my life.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:36

Yeah. I'm obsessed with the fact that it wasn't, the idea wasn't to do a pause. It was to do a cleanse and a reset.

Melissa Febos: 1:08:46

that's right. That's right. Yeah. It wasn't I think I would've been very happy if a pause would've sufficed if I could just not for some time and then be fixed. But I am, as we've alluded to already in this conversation, my God-given drives are a bit too strong to be addressed by just a. Pause. I had to undergo some pretty heavy lifting to do things differently. And even after 35 years of falling in love, I was still like pretty bad about navigating what happened after that. And I wanted to be better. And so I worked really hard that year, but it was also really fun.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:23

You wrote this significantly long after it happened.

Melissa Febos: 1:09:30

I

Jason Blitman: 1:09:30

was, what's that about?

Melissa Febos: 1:09:31

I didn't plan on writing about it. It really was just like a thing I did to have a better life. It's really funny. People

Jason Blitman: 1:09:39

was like, I want a new book from you. And you're like, oh, I have an idea. I could use

Melissa Febos: 1:09:42

I was like interesting. I think I thought I would write like maybe an essay or something about it. And I started writing an essay about it that in my third book, girlhood. And I just immediately realized that it didn't go there. And I was like, I'll just come back to this later. And then I wrote another book, published that book, wrote another book, and then eventually I came back to it and was like, is there still a pulse here? And there really was. It was super loud. And then once I started writing about it, I was like, you know what? It wasn't just that it was the happiest year, it was actually super deep. Like I really changed the course of my life in many ways. Totally changed the way I relate to like love and sex and romance. Met my wife at the end of it, which was not the goal at all. But yeah, I realized that I had a whole book

Jason Blitman: 1:10:25

Wow. What was it like revisiting that year

Melissa Febos: 1:10:28

Yeah, I have to say it was actually quite fun. My previous books are heavy and I'm actually like a total fool, as you can see in life. Like falling off the treadmill, making a joke while I'm falling. And, but I'd never gotten to bring that part of myself into my writing'cause I was always dealing with like kind of dark material and with. This book, it was really fun to go back and be like, why was it so good? Like doing a kind of autopsy on my own happiness, and then also like laughing at myself like, look at this fool. Figuring, like looking back at my whole dating history, being like, how did I get here? And it's oh my God. Very funny in hindsight. Lots of dramatic irony. But also you can't write about being like, I decided to take three months celibate and not have a sense of humor about yourself.'cause it started with three months and then it got extended. And then it got extended. But all my friends were laughing at me like the whole time oh really? Three months. Amazing. So

Jason Blitman: 1:11:18

shut up. I'm trying.

Melissa Febos: 1:11:20

was like, listen, it's relative. Okay. And it was like, for me that was like really different and really hard. And then it was totally amazing. Or like deciding that I was allowed to masturbate while I was celibate. That got some big laughs when I made that decision. But also I had like really like solid reasons for that. So it was

Jason Blitman: 1:11:40

It's amazing to it. Realize that you can have love for yourself in that way. That's like

Melissa Febos: 1:11:48

Totally. It's really different. Yeah, there's, it's that was, I immediately was like, is this allowed? And then I was like, oh, this has nothing to do with like how I got to this very ugly point in my relationship history. Like the problem is about how I'm relating to other people. Actually, my erotic relationship to myself is like very healthy and I've never had a problem with it. Thank God it feels like a. Like a gift. But that's not the issue. I actually wanna bring more of that vibe into my relationships with other people where it's like genuine and pretty organic and really authentic.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:21

Have you ever read a book called The Erotic Mind?

Melissa Febos: 1:12:24

No, but it sounds like a book I should

Jason Blitman: 1:12:26

My husband is like the salesman for it.

Melissa Febos: 1:12:30

Interesting. That sounds like a fun vocation.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:32

I've listened to that's his side hustle. I've listened to the audio book and it's fascinating, but it not dissimilar from what you're talking about, it just has you tap into the sort of deep roots of where your eroticism comes from, Unrelated to others and more about just yourself.

Melissa Febos: 1:12:51

Oh, I love it.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:54

You. On someone's podcast, talk about, basically, this is like a terrible misquote of you. Of you, but you talk about taking advice from other writers who you don't know, who you've just read their And gotten inspired by who are some of those people for you.

Melissa Febos: 1:13:12

Oh my God. So many people, I feel like as a young queer person growing up in like a pretty small town in the eighties, there was no internet. There was no social media. There were not like older queer teens teaching me things. So I was reading like, jeanette Winterson and Dorothy Allison and Audrey Lorde. I was just like reading older queer women, a lot of second wave feminists and lesbians trying to figure out like what was possible for me, and so in terms of advice or like what I learned from them about how to be was like, I think, a big message from a lot of, a lot of the good stuff that the second wave feminists and queers had to offer. Were like, we don't, we're not in the fringe of the story. Like we can be the center of our own story, and particularly I think black feminists and queer writers have really written a lot about how to put yourself at the center of your own story, how to not perpetuate your own marginalization by centering queer stories or centering queer, centering straight stories and centering straight audiences, and collaborating with the bullshit that we've all been socialized in,

Jason Blitman: 1:14:17

that's so interesting'cause it jumps back to the, you were saying that people laughed when you talked about masturbation in the book, but it's no, you're literally centering your, centering yourself in your own story.

Melissa Febos: 1:14:29

I'm like, in the context of this story, this is a really big deal, right? And in the context of the larger atmosphere of compulsory heterosexuality, figuring out how to divest from those structures and micros is like a radical act. And I can laugh at myself, and I also totally stand behind it as like meaningful work.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:48

of course. I love that so much. You, I just wanna say out loud because I'm obsessed with both of them, you and your acknowledgements. Thank both Paula Sickey and Kat Akbar.

Melissa Febos: 1:14:58

Oh my friends.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:00

they're both former gays, reading guests, and I love them so much. They're such fantastic humans and great writers.

Melissa Febos: 1:15:06

Kava lives like three doors down

Jason Blitman: 1:15:07

Oh, no way.

Melissa Febos: 1:15:09

friends, colleagues. We like first readers for each other's books. He's doing my launch with me and I saw Paul Reed in Iowa City last night.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:18

Oh, how funny.

Melissa Febos: 1:15:20

Yeah, he's on tour

Jason Blitman: 1:15:21

Small world,

Melissa Febos: 1:15:22

book.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:22

of course, right? Of course he is. Oh, I love that. In our last few minutes together. I have a very important question for you. If you were to die tomorrow, who is deleting the search history on your computer, and it cannot be your wife,

Melissa Febos: 1:15:41

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:42

I know this is a

Melissa Febos: 1:15:43

Honestly. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:44

in our lives.

Melissa Febos: 1:15:46

Okay. I'm actually, and I would say this anyway, I'm gonna go with Kava because he's right down the street. I would be like, run over and delete it. And he and I are both people. If you've had any conversation with him or Red his work, we're both people of very extreme appetites and we're both like. I know he's never gonna judge me and that he knows how to clear a search history. I would be like, get your ass over to my house. I'm dying. Go delete my search history. And he would just be like, on it.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:15

Yes. Good answer. And even if he did read it, he would probably turn it into something amazing.

Melissa Febos: 1:16:22

would be like, yeah, obviously. Duh. Me too.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:25

Exactly. That's a great answer. How inspiring. Melissa, I am so happy to meet you.

Melissa Febos: 1:16:32

Me too. This has been so fun.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:34

So fun, thank you for being my guest gay reader today. Everyone go check out the dry season it is out now,

Melissa Febos: 1:16:42

Yay.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:43

and I can't wait to finish it, which is again, throwing a big wrench in my guest gay reader system that I have going on.

Melissa Febos: 1:16:51

I am so sorry. You welcome and thank you.

1:16:53

Thank you all so much for being here. Victoria v Schwab, Melissa Febos. Thank you both. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I will see you all later this week for an extra episode of GA's reading'cause we are doubling up this pride and I will see you then. All right. Thanks everyone. Bye.