0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello, and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode, I have SA Cosby talking to me about his book, king of Ashes, and my guest, gay reader is author and theater producer Richie Jackson. Both of their bios are in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. If you are new to GA's reading, welcome, and if you're coming back to join again, welcome back. So happy to have you as always. In case you missed it, the Gays Reading Book Club is officially here. I have teamed up with Allstora to bring you curated queer reads for just$1 to start. We're kicking off in July, with disappoint me by Nicola Din, who was a guest gay reader last week. Each month I'll be handpick lgbtqia plus authors whose work hits that literary but approachable sweet spot. And the beautiful part is that for every membership, Altoa will donate a book to an LGBTQ plus young person. The link is in the show notes and there's a special pride deal going on where you can get your first month's box for a dollar, and then after that, every month you'll get a book delivered to your door that is curated by yours. Truly, there will be a group chat and other conversations and so much going on. You don't want to miss it, so head to the link. In the show notes or in the link tree on Instagram, make sure you're following us on Instagram, which is at gay reading. There's a giveaway happening right now. There's another giveaway happening next week. You could also find us over on YouTube and Substack so much happening on the substack and blue sky. The links to all the things are in the show notes. Including for gay's, reading merch and it's pride. So of course that means it is the time to buy your gay reader mug. Who doesn't need a gay reader mug. And pride season is also the perfect time to boost queer voices following gay's. Reading on all of your podcast platforms of choice means that you will never miss an episode. And it tells the platforms that lgbtq plus stories deserve space, and those star ratings are pure gold for visibility. So do with that as you will. And without further ado, please enjoy my conversations with Ee Cosby and Richie Jackson.

Jason Blitman: 2:59

you feeling good? How you doing?

S.A. Cosby: 3:01

Yeah, I'm good. Uh, everything's ramping up from a new book, so I'm sort of, uh, uh, in a holding pattern, but also sort of, uh, on the runway lit, uh, metaphorically speaking, ready to go. So, but yeah, we're doing good. I, you know, it's, it's a new book. And so, you know, of course as a writer, you're nervous. You, you want people to like it. You hope people like it. It's, my new book is very dark. It's extremely dark, and that's saying something.'cause I, my last book was about a, a killer. So, but uh. I have been, um, I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the early reactions. Uh, I got my first trade review, uh, from Library Journal the other day. They liked it. Uh, fans, the readers seem to like it. Um, it, it is, like I said, extremely dark, but also I think has a lot of heart, like a lot of my books. So, you know.

Jason Blitman: 3:55

Yeah. I feel like I was warned based on other podcasts that you've been on, that flipper the cat might make an appearance, so I'm fingers crossed over here.

S.A. Cosby: 4:06

So Flipper is, is, is I have appearance

Jason Blitman: 4:17

Uh,

S.A. Cosby: 4:18

Make his presence felt. Uh, you know, he, he wants

Jason Blitman: 4:21

listen, as long as you said flippers, as long as you didn't say flippers no longer with us.'cause then I would've put, had to put my foot in my mouth.

S.A. Cosby: 4:28

oh, no, no, no, no. He's still with us. He's, he's, uh,

Jason Blitman: 4:31

Okay.

S.A. Cosby: 4:32

and he's living the life of, so he's doing fine.

Jason Blitman: 4:37

when this episode comes out, the tu, this is coming out on a Thursday, the Tuesday, uh, I'm in conversation with VI Schwab, She and I had this conversation, I can't remember if it was blacktop, wasteland or something you talked about. When you give someone a nickname, it makes them a myth and a myth never dies. And I'm obsessed that you go by your initials. You've essentially, given you've created a myth of yourself, do you feel that way?

S.A. Cosby: 5:04

Well, you know the funny. I don't take myself that seriously. You know? I don't, I don't, uh, the story behind the, the initials was, so I grew up in the south and in the south most of the times

Jason Blitman: 5:22

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 5:23

used to buy when you could buy books. When I had money, which I didn't often have money as a kid, but when you had money, we, we go, they would have a, a rural books in the supermarket, right? So you go into the. The, you know, the, the local Southern, uh, uh, supermarket chain, and you always see books, uh, in the, uh, in the supermarket. And they were always behind a shelf, so you could only see the top half of the book, right? So a part of the title, but if it was a big author, their name was at the top of the book, right? And so, you know, you go through and you see Dennis Le Hane,

Jason Blitman: 5:51

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 5:51

see Walter Mo, you see, you know, all these folks. I always. It would be cool to have like my name at the top of a book with my initials. I think it would stand out more. So when I started writing I said, well, I'll just write under essay co. You know? And I think some people think like, oh you, is that a play on words? Like essay's, like an essay? And I was like, ah, I wish I was that clever. I'm.

Jason Blitman: 6:19

Nope. You just wanted your name on the top of the book. Right, right. Oh, that's so, so funny.

S.A. Cosby: 6:27

Yeah, my

Jason Blitman: 6:31

Right? Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 6:35

stories and sort of. Create legends, you know, they create myths. And

Jason Blitman: 6:42

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 6:43

I definitely believe that, I mean, I think everybody knows somebody who had a nickname that they got because they did something crazy, you know? And, and those stories live on, you know, we, you know, regardless of whether you're from the south, from the northeast, from uh, the west, you know, you always have somebody in your

Jason Blitman: 6:59

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 6:59

that you know that is. You know, uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, remember that night, uh, Cosmo guy Cosmopolitan, you?

Jason Blitman: 7:13

Uh, if you didn't get one of those nicknames, what would your nickname have been?

S.A. Cosby: 7:19

Well, you know, when I was a kid, my nickname was books.

Jason Blitman: 7:22

Uh.

S.A. Cosby: 7:22

books. I used to have a backpack and I

Jason Blitman: 7:24

Really.

S.A. Cosby: 7:26

Yeah. And I was just walking around with a backpack full of paperbacks and comics and stuff I read all the time. I, I still am a pretty voracious reader. I had a cousin,

Jason Blitman: 7:35

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 7:36

had a cousin whose nickname was the mall, MAUL, because one time so hard that the hospital attacked with a hammer.

Jason Blitman: 7:50

Oh my God. Uh, that's nuts. I am also obsessed that your nickname was books. That's so cute. Can I call you that? Can I call you books? I, Sean, Sean essay, Cosby Books. Welcome to Gay's Reading. We we're starting with a bang. I'm obsessed. Um, okay, so I finished King of Ashes, which I want to talk about in a minute, but then I went right to Blacktop Wasteland'cause, because King of Ashes was my first essay. Cosby. And I like, I needed more right away. So I started Blacktop, wasteland. I'm about halfway through. What is it with you and Hamburger Casserole they're in?

S.A. Cosby: 8:38

So make a. So when I was a kid, like I said, we grew up really, really poor. And uh, my mother, uh, was, uh, was disabled so she had spinal stenosis, so she couldn't physically cook,

Jason Blitman: 8:52

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 8:52

she taught us how to cook and she taught us really simple dishes.'cause we, you know, me and my brother, we were kids and so we, of my favorite

Jason Blitman: 8:59

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 9:00

was hamburger casserole. So many variations.'cause when you're poor, you learn to be flexible with food choices. And so there's so many variations on hamburger casserole and I, you know, it's sort of a, it sort of a family Easter egg. So my family members read the book, they see the hamburger casserole and sort of a, a shout out to my mom. She's no longer with us. So little, little, uh,

Jason Blitman: 9:23

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 9:24

there. So, but.

Jason Blitman: 9:26

I love that. I'm sure it is. Well, I set, I was like back to back in these books. I was like, now I want hamburger casserole. Do you still make that? Do you, how do you, what's your go-to, uh, ingredients? I.

S.A. Cosby: 9:39

So I use, uh, regular, uh, ground beef hamburger. I use,

Jason Blitman: 9:43

Uh uh.

S.A. Cosby: 9:44

give a a, I don't wanna give a a a, a company name, but I use tomato sauce and I use a very specific tomato sauce. Um, I chop up,

Jason Blitman: 9:52

Okay.

S.A. Cosby: 9:52

uh, onions and green peppers. Um, and then what I do

Jason Blitman: 9:56

Yes.

S.A. Cosby: 9:56

I top it. top it with shredded cheese and then I, I put it in a pan that's lined with instant biscuits, right? So you line the pan with biscuits and what happens is as the biscuits expand, as they cook, they sort of come over the beef. So you have this sort of oven baked casserole cheeseburger. So, and that's delicious.

Jason Blitman: 10:17

interesting. Okay. Have you ever done, have you ever tried putting like french fries on top?

S.A. Cosby: 10:24

I've heard of that, but I haven't done it. But I was in, I was in Syracuse a couple months ago and went out to eat and that is like a staple. Well, Syracuse. Syracuse, the only place I've been to where your side dish, if you get a main dish, is beef, is more beef. So.

Jason Blitman: 10:44

What the heart disease capital of the world.

S.A. Cosby: 10:49

Must be because if you get a cheeseburger and Syracuse, your side dish is these two little sausages, and I'm like, what? Where are the french fries? Oh, you gotta ask for those. So, but I saw a restaurant that had the, the hamburger casserole with the french fries on top as a, as a, as a entree. So, hey, I, I, I, and I, I

Jason Blitman: 11:05

That's so funny.

S.A. Cosby: 11:06

already eaten something, but I was very curious about it.

Jason Blitman: 11:11

Well, when you said you lined the casserole dish, I thought you were gonna say with fries, so that's why I was like, oh, maybe if you do the fries on top, then you get the carbs on the top and on the bottom. Now my mouth, now my mouth is watering. Um, okay. King, king of ashes. Do you have, do you have an elevator pitch for the book yet? What's, tell tell the people. What is the book about?

S.A. Cosby: 11:38

So King of Ashes is the story of the Caruthers family. Uh, older brother Roman, middle sister, Nevaeh baby brother Dante. Um, their family owns a crematory, but as the book begins, Roman is living a very fascinating hedonistic life in, in Atlanta, Georgia as a financial advisor gets a phone call from his sister that their father Keith has been in a car accident. When he gets home, he finds out that it wasn't an accident that his brother Dante is in debt to very dangerous criminals. And so in an effort to, uh, assist his brother out of this terrible situation, he in, he ends up working for these criminals and try to pay off the debt that his brother owed also, meanwhile, their sister Nevaeh, who has been holding the family business together, trying to hold the family together, this is the time to investigate the, uh, disappearance of their mother. Who disappeared when they were all teenagers. Um, and everybody in this small little Virginia town thinks their father killed her because she was having an affair. And so story of this family and how they deal with both past and present traumas.

Jason Blitman: 12:32

Um, are you the oldest?

S.A. Cosby: 12:36

I have.

Jason Blitman: 12:37

You are the baby. Interesting. Okay. Because there's, there's very much the, I'm, I'm the oldest, and so I felt like I, I related very much to Roman. I was like, oh, there is, there is firstborn deeply rooted. So you clearly wrote it as the observer of the firstborn.

S.A. Cosby: 12:56

Well, I will say this and I, and I hope my brother doesn't get mad. the baby, but I.

Jason Blitman: 13:07

Listen, that's hap I, I hear lots of stories about that.

S.A. Cosby: 13:11

Yeah, I was given the, I was, I talk about King of Ashes is about sort of the titles or the jobs that we're given in our family. I was given the job of the responsible one, even though I was the baby. And so I definitely identify with

Jason Blitman: 13:24

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 13:24

in many ways. You know? And I love my brother, you know, I do.

Jason Blitman: 13:27

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 13:27

know, it was definitely, I understood Roman, I understood the weight of that responsibility and also sort of that millstone that sometimes feels like it's around your neck.

Jason Blitman: 13:36

so Roman is living in Atlanta, as you were saying. He goes home when he finds out his dad was in an accident, but it's, it's referred to later as not home anymore, just the place that his family lives. When does, when do you think that change happens? When does it, when does that place no longer become home?

S.A. Cosby: 13:54

I think if you move away, and I've moved away and come back a couple times from my hometown, but I think when you

Jason Blitman: 13:59

Yeah, yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 14:00

find, when you finally establish like your circle of friends and comrades and colleagues, when you find that sort of, I don't wanna say when you find that sort of. uh, uh, earth SAT's family, that's when you've created a new

Jason Blitman: 14:16

mm.

S.A. Cosby: 14:17

you know, like Thomas Wolf said, you, you can't go home again because you're not the same person you were when you left. You've changed that person, the

Jason Blitman: 14:24

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 14:24

that person that people think. doesn't exist anymore. And so you go home, you have to deal with those sort of expectations that aren't viable, uh, into who you are now. You know? And I think a lot of people

Jason Blitman: 14:37

Hmm,

S.A. Cosby: 14:38

I, and even though I've moved away and I, I currently live where I grew up, I definitely know I'm a different person than I was before I left.

Jason Blitman: 14:45

interesting. What was it like coming back?

S.A. Cosby: 14:49

It was, well, a little embarrassing because away

Jason Blitman: 14:54

Oh,

S.A. Cosby: 14:58

I, uh, was, uh, I dropped outta college. I had to help my mom with some stuff, and then once that sort of eased up,

Jason Blitman: 15:04

mm

S.A. Cosby: 15:05

leave and I went out west. And when I came back I did feel sort of like a little bit of a failure. You know, I had, I had come home, I

Jason Blitman: 15:12

mm

S.A. Cosby: 15:12

unquote big city, and I felt like I, you know, it wasn't that I couldn't cut it. Certain things happened where I had to come home. I didn't have a place to stay.

Jason Blitman: 15:20

Right.

S.A. Cosby: 15:20

a couple. And they broke up. So, you know, she kicked all of us

Jason Blitman: 15:24

A

S.A. Cosby: 15:25

And so I, so I sort of felt a little bit like a failure. Um, but then, you

Jason Blitman: 15:30

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 15:31

that, you know, it wasn't the end of the world. And I, you know, I started writing more seriously when I came back. And it's funny, I've had the

Jason Blitman: 15:40

Hmm,

S.A. Cosby: 15:40

travel literally around the world. And so I don't feel like I'm stuck at home. I don't feel like, oh, I had to come back. My tail

Jason Blitman: 15:47

hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 15:48

home is just a place where I laid my head, but I've been able to travel the world, travel the country, and so I'm very blessed, very lucky to be able to do that. So it, I have a different sort of perspective on it than I did when I first came back.

Jason Blitman: 16:38

Yeah, well it sounds like you were able, you, you sort of came back one person and then transformed even more so, and now you can appreciate it in a new way, which is super cool.

S.A. Cosby: 16:48

Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. It's funny though, Holman is

Jason Blitman: 16:51

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 16:51

because when I wrote, uh, when I wrote, uh, razor Blade Tears, right? And I wrote that for my cousin. I have a cousin and, uh, who's, who's gay,

Jason Blitman: 16:58

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 16:58

and I wrote it. He inspired it. And, uh, and so I remember him, I, I sent him the early copy of it and he's like, man, this is really good. What do the people back home think? I said, I don't give a fuck. Right? It's like, you know,

Jason Blitman: 17:13

Wow.

S.A. Cosby: 17:15

I don't judge myself by the expectations of the people that knew me when I was a kid, because I'm not that person anymore.

Jason Blitman: 17:21

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 17:22

my hometown, I love people here, but you know, you, you, you cannot live as an artist in the shadow of people that knew you win. You know, Joe, uh, Joe Lansdale says. You have to write, like everybody who you might think would be embarrassed by your work is dead. You have to write in a way that tells the truth, you know? And like Titus says, and all the sins bleed. The truth is always in season. So.

Jason Blitman: 17:46

Yeah. Well, interesting that your cousin clearly was still connected and concerned about what people back home would think or feel, whatever back home even meant to him.

S.A. Cosby: 17:58

You know, it's funny because he lives in Atlanta, you know, and, and, and, uh,

Jason Blitman: 18:03

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 18:03

left, you know, early on and, and created a wonderful life for himself down there. And I guess why, since I mentioned it, I'll give you the backstory to Razor blade. So. and this will kind of answer your question. So Razor Blade was inspired by my cousin. He came home, we used to have a big family reunion and he was living in Atlanta and he would bring his partner home with him. And at first he would not acknowledge that that was his partner. You know, he was his roommate or whatever. And one, 1D day, he called me, he said, Hey, are you gonna be at the reunion this year? And this writer. Who were my aunt and uncle, um, I'm gonna tell him that me and, um, partner are together, you know, and I, he was like, and I really

Jason Blitman: 18:43

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 18:44

I was like, yeah, I'll be there. Sure. So we go to the reunion and he, he does, he introduces his partner as his partner, as his boyfriend. And it, it did not go well. And so later on, me and my brother, uh, took him out for a drink. We went out to, and he said two things with me years later when I decided to write this book. You know, man, maybe I should kept to myself and you could unconditionally. You know, and I say that as a kid who was a wild kid who put my, a lot of gray hairs in my mom's head, you know, but I never felt like no matter what trouble I got into that she, you know, but I never felt like she didn't love me. You know? I never felt that way. And the

Jason Blitman: 19:30

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 19:31

was, you know, I hope they, you know, can come around to understanding that I'm happy before it's too late. Those two things stuck in my

Jason Blitman: 19:39

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 19:43

My brother, who is not always the most sensitive person in the world, he turns to my cousin and he says, so you and, uh, you and your, you and your guy, y'all, uh, y'all gay together? Y'all, y'all gay for each other? And then he was like, yeah. And my brother takes a sip from his beer. And he says, so he makes you happy though, right? And my cousin like, yeah, he makes me very happy. My brother's like, well, you know, fuck it, y'all be gay, man. Be happy. Don't worry about our aunt and uncle. You know, go back to Atlanta. Live your life. And I remember thinking, yeah, yeah. Hell yeah. And so when I went to write Razorblade, it was a book inspired by that idea that love is love, you know? And you should be happy that someone loves your child or loves your brother, or loves your sister, or loves this person that

Jason Blitman: 20:24

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 20:24

as non-binary and that you should be happy that they have someone in their life. And so that's sort of where the idea from the book came from. So when I, we were talking about it later and he said that, I said, why are you worried about people back home? And he says, know. He says, one day come

Jason Blitman: 20:40

Yeah. Yeah, right. Trauma's real.

S.A. Cosby: 20:44

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:45

Uh, and, and you know, among the things I wanted to talk to you about today, because this episode and this book coming out during Pride, you know what it means for you to be an ally, and I think you just really. You just told such a beautiful story of, of a great example of allyship. And I think, you know, we, we all need that cousin, that friend that whoever who's gonna stand there and say, I'm, I'll be there for you. I got your back, and, uh, I'm gonna love you no matter what. So, no matter, so who cares about what, what the people around you are gonna say. Uh, so on on, on all of our we haves. Thanks. Thanks for being a good ally.

S.A. Cosby: 21:24

Well, you know what's funny? I, I, I try to, I try to, you know, there are people, and I'm sure you've experienced this, that try to take allyship as this sort of badge of like, I'm an ally, you know, and they, you know, and it's like an ally's not saying it, you know what I mean? An ally is, you

Jason Blitman: 21:42

Yeah. Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 21:43

with a, with a friend who's, who's gay or trans or non-binary or. You know, black or Hispanic or, or from a marginalized group is walking with that person letting them know that they're safe. You know, letting them know that, Hey, I'm with you. No matter what goes down here, we're gonna be together. You know, it's not just, it's not just buying, you know. I mean this with all due respect. It's not just buying a Rainbow T-shirt and wearing it. It's knowing that when the shit hits the fan, you know, we're together with this. You know? And

Jason Blitman: 22:13

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 22:14

when, when Razor Blade came out and I got a lot of notoriety for it, but you know, I felt like I made a post online. I said, you know, hey, I appreciate all the support for Razor Blade, but here read these, these gay authors who are living this. You know, like,

Jason Blitman: 22:30

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 22:31

Nava, read Greg Heron, read Margaret Dule, you know, read these folks that are really living this. I'm just a straight guy trying to talk about what it feels like to grow up in a community that is steeped in homophobia, but these people are living this. So

Jason Blitman: 22:45

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 22:46

on a pedestal. You know, I appreciate you buying the books, and I appreciate you enjoying it, but. A straight guy observing it, you know, I think that for me that was really important. I did not want razor blade on me to put on any kind of pedestal for that, you know? And so that I think also is being a good ally is centering

Jason Blitman: 23:06

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 23:07

to be centered in, in my opinion.

Jason Blitman: 23:12

Sean, you're so cool. Yes. Thank you.

S.A. Cosby: 23:19

I mean, you.

Jason Blitman: 23:21

Come on books. Come on.

S.A. Cosby: 23:25

I had a good reason I had a good mom. You know, my mom, uh,

Jason Blitman: 23:29

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 23:30

I grew up around a lot of, a lot of readers, right? And so my mom read everything. She, she was not a fiction reader, but she read James Baldwin and she read, you know, gosh, go Vidal, and she read an an n and all these folks and

Jason Blitman: 23:44

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 23:45

mythology and stuff know. You treat people the way you wanna be treated. You meet people where they are, you know, and you know it doesn't matter. Who they love or who they care about. As long as they're good to you. If somebody's good to you, you'd be good to them. So, you know that a lot of that

Jason Blitman: 24:02

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 24:02

my mom because I also was raised in a hyper, hyper masculine environment. You know, I had a lot of uncles and, you know, they were tough guys, man. They, they were blue collar guys that worked. You know, job putting asphalt down on the roads or working at sawmills, and there was this sort of sense of have to maintain and protect your masculinity. You know, somebody bumps into you, you gotta fight'em.

Jason Blitman: 24:26

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 24:26

disrespect you. You gotta fight'em. You know, I'll tell you a funny story, which in hindsight probably isn't that funny, but when I was 12 years old.

Jason Blitman: 24:36

Oh God.

S.A. Cosby: 24:36

Um, when I was 12 years old, I used to ride the school bus and this kid was stealing my lunch. It was an older kid and I would come home and one day.

Jason Blitman: 24:48

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 24:48

Sort. And my uncle was like, man, why you always hungry when you get off school bus? Why you always hungry? You so hungry? Because I'd wolf my food up for dinner, you know? I said, uh, well there's this kid that steals my lunch. And my uncle who thought he was doing good by me, he said, look, you come off this school bus tomorrow and that kid stole your lunch, I'm gonna punch you in your chest. You gonna fight me? And I'm like, yeah, right. Okay, whatever. Not fighting this 35 year. School bus came down the lane. My uncle's like, where's your lunch? I said, oh, that kid took it, punch me in my chest, hard enough, stop my heart. He said, every day you get off the school bus that you haven't fought this kid and protected your lunch, you gonna fight me. So the next day I'm on school bus and the guy comes up and he's like. know what time it is. I was like, Nope. No, we fighting today. fight you rather than this grown ass man as paws like a bear, uh, bear trap. And, you know,

Jason Blitman: 25:38

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 25:39

it took me a long time to realize that that was my uncle in the, the only way he knew how, trying to communicate to me to stand up for my soul. And that is

Jason Blitman: 25:50

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 25:50

toxic way of communicating it. That is a very toxic, masculine way, but it's also tragic because he didn't have the tools to say it in any other way. And so when I grew up,

Jason Blitman: 26:01

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 26:02

a lot of, I tried to do a lot of work to unlearn that, you know, um, to unlearn that sort of idea that. You know, that violence is the only way to establish your masculinity. You know, I, I tried, I learned, and that, you know, my definition of masculinity is not affected by yours or hers or his or anyone else's. And so, you know, I, I definitely worked through my writing, through my creativity to understand that, you know? Um, but I grew up like that. You know, I grew up

Jason Blitman: 26:31

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 26:32

a bar, you know, my first bar fight when I. But I, my knuckles, these last two knuckles are flat. guy broke a

Jason Blitman: 26:41

Oh wow.

S.A. Cosby: 26:43

when I was like 18. Um, and I don't say that to brag. I say that to say that that was the environment that I was sort of steeped in.

Jason Blitman: 26:50

Right.

S.A. Cosby: 26:50

it gave me a lot of sympathy for the men in my life because being African American men in the South where you are constantly disrespected, where you are constantly, uh, discounted, where your manhood and masculinity and your is not questioned, dismissed. That sort of physical, uh, physicality in many ways, they felt like that's the only way I can establish myself. That's the only way I can define myself. And so.

Jason Blitman: 27:17

Yeah. Well, and the way that you just described it, you said, you know, that behavior was almost tragic and it's so interesting bringing it back to King of Ashes. You know, there's a, a quote about, about how he think he thought about the power of tragedies, and the book itself is so Shakespearean. What, you know, what is, what do you think, what is the power of tragedy to you? What does that mean to you?

S.A. Cosby: 27:45

The power of tragedy is the idea or the concept that pain is universal, that we all feel pain. Pain is the language that we all speak,

Jason Blitman: 27:54

Mm

S.A. Cosby: 27:54

Pain is the first thing you learn as a baby. It's not love. The first thing you remember is the time you touch the hot stove or the time you,

Jason Blitman: 28:02

mm.

S.A. Cosby: 28:02

on a knife. the time a dog chased you. Pain and fear is this sort of, uh, uniformity that we all understand. And the beauty of

Jason Blitman: 28:11

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 28:12

the beauty of a tragedy is we learned that we can survive it. You know, we learned that we can make it through,

Jason Blitman: 28:18

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 28:18

that we can have a tragic, horrific thing happen and still the sun is gonna arrive, the world's gonna turn. And I think the great. Writers, and I'm not putting myself on that pedestal. The great writers, the great artists are able to translate that and articulate that in a way that really sits with you. You know, you mentioned Shakespeare. I'm a huge Shakespeare nerd. I've been to Shakespeare's birthplace. Avon. My favorite Shakespeare play is King Lear. You know? And King Lear is a tragedy. It's a tragedy. Steeped in love, and what the toxic and toxicity of love can be and can do. And so when I wrote it King of Ashes, I wanted to articulate that idea that love is wonderful, but toxic love, tragic love, it can destroy you. It can break you.

Jason Blitman: 29:39

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 29:39

I wanted to show that these characters, some of them survive and some of don't. And I wanted to talk about that.

Jason Blitman: 29:47

Yeah, it's a so a amazing and not surprising to hear that you're such a big Shakespeare fan. Where did that come from for you?

S.A. Cosby: 29:56

My, uh, 10th grade English teacher, uh, assigned us, uh, Julius Caesar, and we had to, she had a really interesting, uh, assignment. She had us rewrite the ending the way we thought it would. And I remember it and I read the play backwards and forwards. I watched the, uh, Marlon Brando production. I just was just so taken with the idea that, you know, this is Elizabethan English and this is, you know, the Globe Theater. But these are themes and ideas that I understand that resonated with me. I read Romeo, Juliet, I went, you know, I, I just fell in love with the whole Shakespeare and Cannon and something that I learned is that while Shakespeare is great art, Shakespeare is also genre fiction. Shakespeare is crime, Shakespeare is

Jason Blitman: 30:46

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 30:47

you know, he was writing for the masses. He just happened to be a genius. And so. I think for me, it really spoke to me that I could write crime fiction, I could write horror fiction, I could write genre fiction, but still have literary aspirations. And uh, I, that

Jason Blitman: 31:03

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 31:03

through in my.

Jason Blitman: 31:05

Yeah, that was very, very clear. and now I just wanna read the essay, Cosby Adaptation of Julius Caesar that I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna SI wanna see that on a stage somewhere. I wanna, I want you to play,

S.A. Cosby: 31:21

Well that was, that was,

Jason Blitman: 31:22

play. Have you ever thought about that?

S.A. Cosby: 31:24

I have thought about writing a play, but I gotta warn you, that was me in 10th grade. So that the new ending was knife fights and baseball bats. So.

Jason Blitman: 31:37

Well, you've leveled up a little bit from then, I'm sure. Uh, a woman who, Roman. Dated once said that she used to be afraid that the universe was evil, but came to realize that it's indifferent, which is more terrifying. Do you believe that to be true? What does that mean for you?

S.A. Cosby: 31:58

Yeah, sadly I do. I think, know, there's this idea that we have, that there's good and evil and that evil will be vanquished by good. And know, sadly, I think if you look at our current political climate, that's not always true. I. You know, and, and, and it feels

Jason Blitman: 32:14

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 32:14

is, it's scary. You know, I, I was raised in a very religious environment and one of the things that I used to hear a lot that, you know, hell is not fire and brimstone hell is being outside of the, uh, outside of the eye of God that God doesn't see you anymore.

Jason Blitman: 32:33

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 32:34

that to a, a humanist, uh, perspective, the most terrifying thing is that the universe isn't different, that entropy. Is real and that being a human being

Jason Blitman: 32:44

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 32:44

really fighting against that. It's, you know, beating our, beating our, our fist against the glass. Trying to bring meaning to a life, to a world that maybe doesn't inherently have meaning, you know? But I think that's what makes humans special. I think that's what separates us

Jason Blitman: 33:00

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 33:01

every other living organism on earth. It's not that we're different. Well, like, like one of like genetically, our closest relatives are chimpanzees and in many ways, humans

Jason Blitman: 33:11

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 33:12

Chimpanzees are just alike you know, and strength rules of a chimpanzee troop. Violence and strength rules, nations. But what separates us from the animals is the idea that search for beauty and meaning is worth it. means something to see a flower and talk about it, to paint it, to write a song about it, to show it to someone. It means something to write a love poem for someone, it means something to write a book. One of my favorite writers is, uh, the comic book writer Alan Moore, and he did a, he had an interview one time where somebody asked him like, what would you say to young writers? And he said, I'm paraphrasing. He said, I want young writers to know that they're not just entertainers, that everybody you know,

Jason Blitman: 33:53

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 33:53

somebody who read a book that changed their life. That we're myth makers and that means something. What we do is important, you know? Um, I, um, I used to be very self-deprecating in interviews. I used to be very, you know, oh, I'm not special. What I do isn't a big deal. I can do it. Anybody can do it. I have a very good friend named Jordan Harper, who called me one day after listening to an interview, he said, Hey, man, stop saying that what we do is important, and if everybody could do it, everybody would do it. You know, we're doing something that means something. Writing means something, art means something. And so for me, that's the way that we fight against Mor moral mortality and morality, and the idea

Jason Blitman: 34:34

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 34:34

arbitrate decision of who's good and who's evil. You know, just because you. Love someone that somebody else doesn't approve of, doesn't make you evil. Just because you write a story that is dark doesn't mean that you're evil. You know that the idea

Jason Blitman: 34:49

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 34:49

that is something that is one definitive definition is ridiculous, and I think art is the sort of boar against that

Jason Blitman: 34:57

Yeah. What was the book that changed your life?

S.A. Cosby: 35:02

I. Is one's kind silly.

Jason Blitman: 35:11

No, none of it's not silly, nothing silly. You're stop. Don't, don't say that.

S.A. Cosby: 35:16

So I read a crime novel written many, many years ago that very few people know about by a man named Elliot Chase called Black Wings, has my angel, it's a very dark noir novel. I read it when was like 15 and I was like, wow, this is so dark, but also so beautiful that you know, this is, you know, it was advertised as Pulp Fiction, the old novel written in like the fifties, but it. Even though the characters were tough and hard bitten, such a beauty in it. And, and the other one, the book that really made me realize the power of a writer was, uh, Salem's Lot by Stephen King. it's, you know, it's in addition to being one of the most terrifying books I've ever written. I remember reading that book and understanding the way I feel when I read this book the way I want other people to feel when they read something. I wrote, you know, Stephen King has

Jason Blitman: 36:06

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 36:07

is telepathy. We're talking mind to mind when you read a book, you're reading my thoughts, but more so for me was it showed the power of what a writer does. You know, a writer basically grabs you by the hand and says, come and see. I'm gonna show you something. I'm gonna show you the worst thing you could imagine. But I'm also gonna show you the beauty

Jason Blitman: 36:28

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 36:28

around it. I'm gonna show you people being the worst version of themselves, but I'm also show people being honorable and people you. When I finished that book, I remember thinking, if I ever write a book, I want people to feel like that. I want to grab you by the throat and say, look at this. I'm gonna tell you a story, and this is gonna be a story like you've never

Jason Blitman: 36:49

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 36:50

You're gonna have feelings like you've never felt before, and when this book is over, you're not gonna be able to forget it. I don't know if I always achieve that

Jason Blitman: 36:57

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 36:58

but that's the high bar I'm trying to reach. And Salem's lot taught me that.

Jason Blitman: 37:03

Wow, that's so cool. I, uh, I will say there are things in king of Ashes that I will never forget. Uh, I was at a, at a, a bagel place the other day and I, this is not giving anything away, but I will just say that I happened to notice a guy who works at the bagel place that he, he didn't have a, a pinky, and that was triggering to me. Um,

S.A. Cosby: 37:30

I know this, I know this scene you're referencing, more people talk about that than they do. Um, and you'll know what I'm talking about. More people talk about that than they talk about the kennel, and I thought the kennel was gonna be the scene that really people apart. No, it's the, it's the pinky scene.

Jason Blitman: 37:47

yeah. The pinky scene. No, the kennel. Yeah. No, I get that. But um. But also, I will say it had me asking a lot, what does it mean to be a good person? And what, what do you think? What is, does that even, is there an answer? You know? And then of course the question is, does it make you a bad person? If you do bad things for a good reason, you know?

S.A. Cosby: 38:17

I think if you get to point where constantly reminding yourself that the end justify the means, then you've crossed. Right. There's a

Jason Blitman: 38:27

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 38:28

where if you have to constantly tell yourself this, okay, I'm doing this for right reasons. If you have to constantly remind yourself that you've already lost the plot, you've already caught, you've already gone beyond the point of no return. I think, you know, there's a scene it where there's a scene in King of Ashes where Dante tells you, and it's not giving anything away. Dante tells Roman, you keep saying you're doing this for us, but you like it and you're good at it. And that's the moment for me where I kind of thought is he, is he right? Because he's right then not good person, you know?

Jason Blitman: 39:03

Interesting. Right? So if you're doing, if you're doing a bad thing, but for a good reason, but you also happen to like doing that thing.

S.A. Cosby: 39:09

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 39:11

Oh, you've, you've crossed the line. Yeah. Woof.

S.A. Cosby: 39:16

There's a story, and I don't know the the author, but I read it in a, it was a short story in a horror anthology, and God, I think it's called, the Question is the name of the, the, the story, and I don't

Jason Blitman: 39:25

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 39:25

author, so forgive me, but it's basically a story about a man who is, uh, he works for the state as an executioner. He, he's the guy who flips the switch on a, um, on a, on a, on the electric hair. And he's talking about his son asked him a question and now they don't talk anymore. Was the son asked him like.

Jason Blitman: 39:46

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 39:49

Well, yeah, of course I do. It's my job. And he said his son told him he didn't wanna talk to me

Jason Blitman: 39:53

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 39:54

And I think that was something in the back of my mind when I was thinking about Roman. know, if you say, no, I don't like it, it's, it's a necessary thing. It has to be done. I think that says a lot about you as a person, but if you're just like, yeah, I mean, of course I enjoy it sometimes. Sometimes people deserve it, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think that's another question you have to ask yourself. And so what does it mean to be a good person? I guess it depends on how much you take pleasure in doing bad things.

Jason Blitman: 40:16

Yeah, we sit with that for a minute. Yeah. Uh, well, you know, and, and similarly, uh, a quote that comes up later is that nothing is impossible. It just depends on how bad you want it. And that can also, you sort of find the balance between, between a good person, the bad person, right and wrong, good and evil. You know, maybe it's as simple as becoming an a published author, but, but is it also, you know. Nothing's impossible as in getting rid of that person that you don't like, you know, I think it could be all sorts of things. Uh, is that true for you? Have you been able to, uh, accomplish the things that you, that you want?

S.A. Cosby: 41:00

I think, you know what's funny, people always ask me like, how do I do it? How do I become a published author? And, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a nice answer where it was like, you know, so I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to be a writer. I wrote my first original story when I was seven years old because my mom got

Jason Blitman: 41:15

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 41:15

with me picking out the pot potholes in, uh, fairytales. So she challenged me to write my own story because I, to be like you. Why do three little pigs, why didn't they build all their houses out of bricks in the first place? Why are we even messing around with straw? Um, but um, so that's the, that's the good answer. You know, that's the nice answer. But the, I guess the nothing is an impossible answer is spite. I got rejected. My first book got rejected over 60 times, right. And I was told by editors that nobody wanted to read Southern Rural Noir with black leads. That it doesn't sell, there's no market, it's. I'm gonna show you. You know, I, I could do all things

Jason Blitman: 41:56

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 41:56

that strengthened me, you know, and, and it was, it had a chip on my shoulder. I wrote, I wrote Blacktop Wasteland with a chip. I was very angry. You can read that book. It's an angry book. I was real angry. I had gotten dropped by an agent. I had

Jason Blitman: 42:08

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 42:09

wanted to read my book. And so I was like, you know what? gonna write the books I wanna write and I'm gonna write it the way I wanna write it. And you know, damn the torpedoes, so to speak. And I think there is a darkness

Jason Blitman: 42:20

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 42:20

a anger, there's a rage, there's a, I'm gonna show you sort of that comes through. But I think you gotta have both of them. You gotta want to do it. always felt like being a writer is not a thing that I do. It's a thing I am. But also there was a, yeah, I'm

Jason Blitman: 42:34

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 42:35

You're gonna, you know, you're gonna regret not publishing this book. I think you gotta have both. I

Jason Blitman: 42:40

Hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 42:40

the yang that exists within us, you know? it's funny, there's a movie, called, uh, um, uh, uh, uh, the Usual Suspects, right? And there's a scene where a

Jason Blitman: 42:48

Uh.

S.A. Cosby: 42:49

a story about Kyle De So, and he says that, you know, you don't have to, to be a, to be a boss, basically. You don't have to have more guns or more guys than the other people you're up against. To do things. The other person isn't. I

Jason Blitman: 43:04

Mm.

S.A. Cosby: 43:06

but I say sadly because you know, once you go down that road, there's no coming back.

Jason Blitman: 43:12

Well, I mean another way to maybe look at it is that that other person might not have been willing to go to agent or to, to publisher, uh, 61. Right.

S.A. Cosby: 43:22

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:23

And if you're willing to go. for the sake of, of justifying that poor first pig, maybe that's all he could afford. He could only afford the straw.

S.A. Cosby: 43:37

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. You know,

Jason Blitman: 43:41

Bricks are expensive.

S.A. Cosby: 43:44

at seven was like, man, just build a house. Why.

Jason Blitman: 43:56

Now I wanna know what other potholes you found that's so funny.

S.A. Cosby: 43:59

man, you was, it was like, uh, I remember her, she would read me, uh uh, red Rot Hood and I'm like, you know, her grandmother could not exist. She couldn't survive in the wolf stomach. There's no air in there. And so, you know, my mom, know, it. Write your own damn stories. How about that? But you know what's funny? I wrote a story, uh, I wrote a story about these, uh, these space fairing gnomes that crash land in our backyard when I was seven years old, I gave it to my mom. And I

Jason Blitman: 44:27

Mm-hmm.

S.A. Cosby: 44:28

me, she kept asking me, did you write this all by yourself? Did you do this by yourself? And I'm like, yes, ma'am, I did. And I will say this, the look on her face, when she realized I had done it all by myself. I look, I see that look in reader's faces today and, and it, you know, it's such an incredible feeling when somebody realizes you created this outta your own mind. And it's, that's the, that's the, that's the

Jason Blitman: 44:52

Yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 44:53

that I get when I write. That's the, that's as, uh, as the kids say, that's the juice, that's the feeling of, you know, I've connected with you. You connected with me and you know that I, I made this up, you know, and I just, I love that. I love seeing that on reader's faces. You know, I love when I sign books and, and people say that to how such a.

Jason Blitman: 45:15

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Did anything is, does that story still exist anywhere? Do you have it somewhere? The space gnomes.

S.A. Cosby: 45:21

You know what? You know, you know what's funny? When my mom passed away, we clean the house up. I found it. She had it folded up in her Bible. So I have it, it's at my house. Yeah. It's all,

Jason Blitman: 45:34

Come on. You gotta put it out onto the internet or something. Come on the.

S.A. Cosby: 45:39

I keep it, it's a personal memory.'cause I, I, I like that I wrote it, but I also like that she was my first reader. So,

Jason Blitman: 45:48

Yeah. Yeah, that's special. And now you can't put it out'cause not enough people die in that story. So no one would believe it was you.

S.A. Cosby: 45:55

Nobody dies and the, the knowns get back to their planet. It's a happy ending. So's gonna read it. This is the essay.

Jason Blitman: 46:02

No. You asked this question in the book, and so I have to, I'm turning it back to you. This is gay's reading. You're, no, no one else is gonna ask you this question. Have you ever been to a furry party?

S.A. Cosby: 46:24

So. Inadvertently when I was in, uh, I was in, I gotta, I gotta say this carefully because the people, who were there may be listening. I was visiting Europe. I'll just say that. I won't say where I was

Jason Blitman: 46:41

Uh, uh.

S.A. Cosby: 46:42

and at end of my trip. Some people that were hosting me was like, Hey, we're gonna go to this after hours club. Would you like to join us? And I'm like, yeah, of course. So we go to the after hours club, which was in a converted cathedral. You walk in and there were, uh. People there that you very quickly understood that this place was a very open place, if you get my drift. And one of the event there was a party where people were identifying as furries. And uh, my host, my host were like, do you want to go there? Do you wanna get, go to the. There were multiple things that you could do in this, in this building, and I was like, I would just like to have a drink of whiskey that I will sit down. I, I, I, I mean, no, I don't yuck anybody's young, but I, I didn't, I didn't bring, you know, my Wally Coyote outfits, so I'm not gonna be able to attend the.

Jason Blitman: 47:42

Next time. Next time. Next time.

S.A. Cosby: 47:44

time guys, when I'm back, when I come back and they were like, are you sure? I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I'll just, I'll just sit over here at the bar and have some whiskey. Now I'm gonna tell you the end of that story. It's so funny. After the party, party was over, everybody came out in regular clothes, came over to the bar side, and then they all danced to a uptown funk by Bruno.

Jason Blitman: 48:09

That is so funny. You know, I have to say, I, I don't know what I was expecting when I wrote that question down, but I was like, this is just, has to be something that like someone told him once, or I don't know, but this was, this was primo. This was perfect.

S.A. Cosby: 48:27

It was a very interesting end to a wonderful week in Europe.

Jason Blitman: 48:32

That is so funny. Oh my God. Uh. You're always wearing hats in all your pictures, so I didn't know what you looked like under your hat. And there's something that happens at the beginning of blacktop Wasteland where, well, yes, I, I know I've seen a photo since then, but, but, uh, there's a character who talks about how he's worried about cutting off his braids because he is worried about the shape of his head, and my hair has been thinning and I'm like, my head, my head is not equipped for not being covered. And it started stressing me out.

S.A. Cosby: 49:10

Well, you know,

Jason Blitman: 49:11

I was like,

S.A. Cosby: 49:11

wear the hats because I like hats. But I'm lucky. I think I have a, I have a good shape for the bald head, you know, and, you know, I got the, uh, the hawk, uh, Avery Brooks

Jason Blitman: 49:20

I'm so jealous.

S.A. Cosby: 49:21

Spencer. you know, but I just like hats. I've always liked hats. My dad like hats and I took it from him. So.

Jason Blitman: 49:27

Yeah. I, they don't fit my head well. My head is too big. It is a problem.

S.A. Cosby: 49:37

You just, you know what you gotta do. You don't have to worry about it. You just start cutting it close, getting a nice little crew, uh, cut going on. You, you get people used to it, and then one day you just shave it and then nobody will notice it. Like, oh, he's just shaved his head. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 49:51

In. Interesting. Hmm. It's like literally death by a thousand cuts.

S.A. Cosby: 49:58

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 50:03

Oh my God. So funny. I, this book is so great. I was in it from the very beginning. I couldn't put it down. As I said, made me want to immediately pick up blacktop Wasteland, which of course I did. Um, and I'm so excited for everyone to read it.

S.A. Cosby: 50:25

It's one of those books where I finished it

Jason Blitman: 50:27

I.

S.A. Cosby: 50:27

I knew how dark it was. I knew how emotional it was, and I, you know, you don't know, you don't know what people are gonna, how they're gonna feel, you know? But I've been pleasantly surprised. I've gotten early reviews. People seem to dig it. They like it. I think the thing is, a writer, you want people to get what you're trying to say. And then what I'm trying to say in that book is, you know, like I said, open your heart to people that you love. You know, don't, don't If people actually talk to each other in King of Ashes, that book would only be three chapters, you know? And so it's the idea that communicate with people, communicate with the people you love, you know, and I'm so glad that people get it and they're connecting with it. They understand, you know, it's, you know, come for the, uh, come for the pinky shearing and the, uh, the, the, the kennel, uh, scene, but stay for, and.

Jason Blitman: 51:16

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have two younger sisters and it just had me thinking a lot about our dynamic and what we do and don't share and, uh, the, the trauma that we have experienced together and separately and what that means and how it connects us. And, uh, yeah, it's all, all very interesting and thoughtful. Um. Well essay Cosby Sean books, I'm, it's such a joy to have you on gay's reading. Thank you so much for being here.

S.A. Cosby: 51:46

Oh man. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. Thank you guys for, uh, having me on, and I really enjoyed myself. Thank you again so much.

Harper!: 51:54

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 51:56

look at your bookshelves behind you.

Richie Jackson: 51:58

We live in a very old house and these are original and

Jason Blitman: 52:03

fluorescent lights are original.

Richie Jackson: 52:05

so I don't know about that. They do, and I have no idea how that got added, but my very sweet husband moved them to my study so I could have them.

Jason Blitman: 52:15

Oh my God. I recognize, I think one.

Richie Jackson: 52:18

I'm sure you recognize Oh, yes. So I they're not in particular order yet, there's all my books from the eighties, all my favorite eighties gay writers, and then there's the top shelf for all gay history and AIDS history and stuff.

Jason Blitman: 52:35

oh my God.

Richie Jackson: 52:35

I leave all the heterosexual books out down.

Jason Blitman: 52:39

They don't get the special treatment. Oh, that's so funny. Richie Jackson. Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Richie Jackson: 52:44

Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Jason Blitman: 52:47

thank you for being my guest gay reader today. It's it's always been really fun talking to folks about what books bring them joy, especially people who aren't necessarily thought of as a part of the book world. Though you have written a book, even people who have written a book are not always. Quote unquote in the book world. So

Richie Jackson: 53:03

I, you and I both used to be in the theater world. Now we're in the book world, which is much nicer.

Jason Blitman: 53:09

I know we're expats for

Richie Jackson: 53:12

I'm so proud of you.

Jason Blitman: 53:13

Thank you. I feel seen someone I went to college with, to theater school with she also is now an author and there was someone else. It's a a good community of

Richie Jackson: 53:22

There should be a program for us to go to and share.

Jason Blitman: 53:27

C-H-E-R-S-H-A-R-E Richie Jackson, what are you reading? What's on your list?

Richie Jackson: 53:33

So I'm reading I'm reading two books that I've chosen for myself and a third book that are 8-year-old son has assigned to my husband and I.

Jason Blitman: 53:45

Tell me more.

Richie Jackson: 53:46

The books that I am reading simultaneously are separate rooms by Pierre Vitelli, which is a book from the late eighties and a beautiful, beautifully written book about gay men and a new book called, it's Not The End of the World by Jonathan Parks Ramage, which just came out, and he is so brilliant and so funny and absolutely twisted. And I lo there it is. I just, he sees the same things I see.

Jason Blitman: 54:20

Oh yeah.

Richie Jackson: 54:21

Then how he, how he makes sense of it, interprets it and articulates it, is like another stratosphere of a mind that I just marvel at him,

Jason Blitman: 54:34

When you say seize the same things, what

Richie Jackson: 54:35

See world falling apart.

Jason Blitman: 54:37

Oh, sure.

Richie Jackson: 54:39

See.

Jason Blitman: 54:41

Yeah.

Richie Jackson: 54:42

How he extrapolates from that I think is extremely creative and really thrilling to watch,

Jason Blitman: 54:49

That's really cool. I feel, especially right now to have people who can creatively interpret the, for, I think the technical term is dumpster fire that we're currently a part of. I,

Richie Jackson: 55:03

his book meets the moment.

Jason Blitman: 55:04

yeah.

Richie Jackson: 55:06

Yeah. The other book I just finished was a book. I know you spoke to the author audition, Katie Kitura. I thought that book was stunning.

Jason Blitman: 55:16

It's so funny, and I didn't say this to her, but I think I would say this to her. It's gonna be one of my favorite books of the year and a book that I hated simultaneously. I loved it so much, but I also can't recommend it to everybody.

Richie Jackson: 55:30

I, I, it also, it stays with you in really disturbing ways. You know, Every time I see my husband blink, I'm like, wait, what does that mean? Katie said that every she noticed every little thing her husband did, and I'm like, oh, I should be more attentive.

Jason Blitman: 55:45

Yes, I the book has just, it's, it has stuck with me in terms of even waking up in the morning and how I'm presenting myself throughout the day. What is this book that your son

Richie Jackson: 55:59

my 8-year-old son is in a book group that two of his friends and he have started and they started with Hunger Games. It is the most inappropriate book for an eight year.

Jason Blitman: 56:13

Is it, I honestly, I've seen, I saw the first movie and I have no, other than the people dying and things, I don't really know what an 8-year-old is.

Richie Jackson: 56:21

Children that my child is reading about, and he said to my husband and I want you to read it too. And so now. We're reading this book and think, God, we're bad parents. How could we be? But it's gotten him to read and his friends and he are so competitive. They're now competitively reading. So my son is I have to read a hundred pages today. I was like, okay, have at it. But

Jason Blitman: 56:50

That's

Richie Jackson: 56:50

I'm a little worried because he wants to watch the movie now.

Jason Blitman: 56:53

I feel like I was reading Lord of the Flies in school when I was not eight, but I was young. I feel sixth or seventh grade.

Richie Jackson: 57:01

I don't really, he has a very clear, like he knows what's real and what's not real and it's not scaring him'cause he knows it's not real. But I do think, like I. I'm not I'm, I, if he's not playing a video game, then I'm, because he is not allowed, we don't allow him to watch TV or play video games. So I can't really start restricting what he Then we're those gay parents and we be those gay

Jason Blitman: 57:28

Oh my God. Was, is this a new thing for him? Reading?

Richie Jackson: 57:32

So reading, he's has to read for school, he has homework to read, but he's always, unless he loves the book, it's always a bit of a chore for him to read. And

Jason Blitman: 57:42

But that's true for everyone. I totally relate to that so deeply and I

Richie Jackson: 57:45

no, you weren't a reader. And So you decided to start a podcast about reading, talk about backing. Backing into it.

Jason Blitman: 57:54

to be fair, the reading came first and then the podcast came. I would be a little crazy.

Richie Jackson: 57:57

I wanna see proof of that. Imagine if you thought to have a cooking podcast.

Jason Blitman: 58:03

it's funny that you say that because I have, I have a knack for taking like leftovers and turning them into something else.

Richie Jackson: 58:13

Oh my God, that's a cookbook.

Jason Blitman: 58:14

I know. And I was like, this could be a really fun.

Richie Jackson: 58:18

you could do a whole

Jason Blitman: 58:18

I know I don't have the patience for that. You have to take nice pictures and the reality is the leftovers are gonna be different every time.

Richie Jackson: 58:25

Also I don't think you have to take nice pictures'cause leftovers will never look good.

Jason Blitman: 58:29

No, those will n no. Sure, sure. But the ingredients are never the same. So like I can't recreate the same thing again. I can't make a recipe. That's where, thank you. But no, I once, I was like, wait, the whole point is that you don't have a recipe. So that sort of put the kibosh on that idea that I had

Richie Jackson: 58:50

So then you turn to a book.

Jason Blitman: 58:52

Exactly. What's the next best thing?

Richie Jackson: 58:55

It's interesting to me that you chose the word gay given your age and the time, because I would choose that word, but it's not queer as a reading.

Jason Blitman: 59:05

It's funny that you say that because I have thought about adding an asterisk to the artwork and to some of the way I'm talking about it. But I grew up at a time where gay was the general term.

Richie Jackson: 59:20

How old are you? Can I

Jason Blitman: 59:21

I'm 37.

Richie Jackson: 59:22

Oh, yeah. I'm gonna be 16.

Jason Blitman: 59:24

Oh, you look great.

Richie Jackson: 59:27

I assume you have a filter or something, this is gonna make better, right?

Jason Blitman: 59:31

You have good lighting it's okay. And so yeah, gay was the general term for me. And at the time it was the thing that makes sense. But now of course that I'm doing this guest gay reader series and I talk to all sorts of people who identify in all sorts of ways. That's where I'm like, okay, maybe I need to. Amend so that I don't offend. Yeah it's, it can be tricky, right? The world that we're in.

Richie Jackson: 59:55

It is tricky world. It is not unlike working in the theater where you do want to preserve something you love, even when it becomes your work.'cause sometimes that's a challenge, right?

Jason Blitman: 1:00:10

absolutely. And yet I obviously have a compulsion to find something that I love and it can't just be a hobby. I need to like,

Richie Jackson: 1:00:20

You need to monetize.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:22

Monetize is something we're still working on. But yeah. Create something beyond a casual hobby. Like even in, even working in theater when I was a kid, I loved putting on plays and I couldn't just leave it at that. I couldn't then go be a scientist. That just wasn't how I worked.

Richie Jackson: 1:00:38

if you think about what you're doing, creating community, which is exactly what the world needs right now, and books create empathy, which is exactly what the world needs right now. So I think you're providing a really important service to people.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:54

thank you. I appreciate that. And I have to say, when I was having my existential crisis when theater was being less kind I really stripped away what it was about it that brings me joy. And I think storytelling and empathy building and community building, those are really the tent poles for

Richie Jackson: 1:01:12

that's that's everything

Jason Blitman: 1:01:13

sure. For the things that you're passionate about. I'm sure that's true for the guys who work at the construction site too, but that's not for me. Um,

Richie Jackson: 1:01:23

Days at the construction site.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:25

Listen, I have a brand here. It could be gay cooking, gay constructing games.

Richie Jackson: 1:01:30

Days constructing construction site. Might wanna be your porn

Jason Blitman: 1:01:33

Yes. My OnlyFans.

Richie Jackson: 1:01:35

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:36

Short shorts and, orange vests.

Richie Jackson: 1:01:39

See it.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:40

have you always been a reader?

Richie Jackson: 1:01:42

Yes. Except when I had to read, when I was in grade school, I couldn't read. I had really struggled with reading when I was in the third grade to the point where I was taken out of my class for special help. And I had to I never read without a ruler'cause I had to put something under every line. For fear that the words. Coming at me were just distracting me. But then I started to just read and. Really, basically, I think have educated myself from books and certainly educated myself how to be gay and how to live a gay life from reading Andrew Hollerin and Edmund White, and Felice Ano and Christopher Bram, all these people. When I moved to New York in 1983, I immersed myself in gay male writers to try to,'cause nobody teaches you how to be gay. Nobody raises you. Which is why I wrote my book gay like me to provide some blueprint, but these incredible writers helped me understand the world I joined.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:47

Yeah. Are there some, I don't know, maybe initial memories that you have that were imprinted on you from reading some of those early on?

Richie Jackson: 1:02:55

Certainly best little boy in the world, which is this book about how gay men tend, tend to be always wanting to be perfect and always having to. Get everything right so as not to be found out. Like it was basically I wasn't that closeted person, but there was this notion that if you just are the A type, a personality, people won't realize what you're hiding. And I remember things like, I had never been to a gay bar, but he the character in the book took off their glasses before they went to a gay bar.'cause glasses weren't attractive. He couldn't see any guy anymore, but at least he looked more attractive. Andrew Hollerin wrote the best gay novel in my opinion, dancer from the Dance. And

Jason Blitman: 1:03:43

up a few times. I've not read it yet, but lots of people have told me I need to.

Richie Jackson: 1:03:47

is the most beautiful book and Larry Kramer called Andrew Hollerin. Our Hemingway, meaning that the prose was so beautiful and what that did. To me, for me was it elevated my idea of what it was to be gay. Even in the stories of going to Fire Island and having lots of sex or staying out all night at clubs all of the culture of the gay community. He wrote about in such beautiful words that it gave me respect for our community. And to this day, I can recite passages from it. And it's one of the things he wrote that I sent to my husband when we were recording was about how the person you fall in love with is the magic bearer, the magician, the one who brings all this to us and it's the most beautiful. Image of what the person you fall in love with is. And that stuck with me.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:51

That's really beautiful and I, it's interesting, I think just the need for gay queer lgbtq plus people to see that. Example of what did you say? Elevated what it means to be gay. And I think, when you do a simple Google search of queer people in history to really see the gay people that I've had impact on the world, right? Not even just a small community, but on the world is I think, empowering and important and something that I don't think we really think about

Richie Jackson: 1:05:30

I think it's apt. This is why I think it's crucial that gay people read gay books um, because otherwise you are trying to fit yourself into a world that you do not. Belonging and I am always reading a gay book or an L-G-B-T-Q book. Even when I read if I go into the other world and read

Jason Blitman: 1:05:53

Audition.

Richie Jackson: 1:05:55

those crazy heterosexual heterosexuals confound me. Let me just say. When I read them, I can't make sense of them, but I'm always reading A-L-G-B-T-Q book simultaneously.'cause I'm not gonna spend my life fitting myself into someone else's story and trying to blur my eyes to like maybe I can see myself there. It's just that is not good for your gay self-esteem.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:19

Yeah, no, that's a really interesting point. And I think it's funny, people will ask me a lot, how come I don't only talk to gay authors? And I think part of it is the flip side of gay people should be and need to be reading gay books, but gay people don't only read gay books. and in addition, I with, because of who I am, bring a different perspective to. A, a quote unquote straight book. An interesting example is I interviewed Nathan Hill for his book wellness, which I loved, but it is about a 30 year heterosexual relationship. But I was looking at it through a gay lens, and in fact, I had a handful of queer people reach out to me and say, I loved the book when I read it. And after listening to the conversation with Nathan from your perspective, it just elevated it to a way that I didn't even imagine. And so that was important to me as well, because again we don't just read gay books, what I also found very interesting about what you said. Brings me to why I don't only ask my guest gay readers to tell me about books that they're reading. Whenever I tell someone to prep for this conversation, I say it could be IKEA instructions, it could be the back of a cereal box. It

Richie Jackson: 1:07:36

I've never, I can't make sense. I can make sense of audition. I can't make sense of Ikea instructions.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:43

Of course the joke about that is that it's only pictures, but Right. No, of course. But my point is it when I, because we're always reading something right? And we're always receiving that information in whatever that means to us. And I remember being a young gay person coming up at a time where I had the internet. Doing my Googling, which was my due diligence as to your reading, Andrew Hollerin. And I remember some search talking about what gay sex can be, and in addition to the things that I think people think of when they think of sex, it also just talked about intimacy and that as. That, massages and kissing and what we now know as fraud edge, all sorts of things can be sex beyond intercourse. And I think it, for me, as a young person, reading that was an unlock saying, oh, I could, there could be a lot of things and it means so much.

Richie Jackson: 1:08:45

My book I is entirely a letter to my gay son, and one of the things I said is, I want you to have as much sex as you can uh, when you're young. But I. You won't know where in the journey the person you're having sex with is. And sex is a tightrope. So you have to protect your heart while also trying to be as vulnerable as possible. And I also said in the book, and I say to my son, you have to protect the heart of the other person because they might have been, they might be closeted, they might have been abused, they might have been bullied. You don't know. So take care with the people that you have sex with.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:24

Yeah. How did Gay like me come to be? Was that sort of the impetus?

Richie Jackson: 1:09:29

The impetus was he, our older son was 14 when he told my husband and I, he was gay and I was elated. I was hoping I was like, my greatest wish was for him to be gay. And then he said, daddy being gay is not a big deal. My generation doesn't think it's a big deal. And I thought. Oh, no, being gay is a really big deal and I wanted to think about all the things I needed to share with him about what it means to be a gay man. And as I was writing that Donald Trump was elected and I had to warn him about how to stay safe. As an L-G-B-T-Q person in America. He was about to go to college. He was ready for college. He was not ready to be a gay man in America. And I moved to New York City in 1983, right at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic. So I've seen 50 years of our history. And'cause I'm gonna be 60, so I came here in 83 and when I was. 17. So I've lived through a lot of what we've been through. And I have, I left the AIDS war having a devotion and love for our community, a distrust for our government and weariness for straight people. And I, I wanted to impart everything. Being gay is a gift. It is an absolute gift as long as you take advantage of the gift. And that's what my message to him in the book was.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:58

Interesting. I know I wanna say, and what, tell me more about that. But that's what the book is for. We'll read it. Do we know anything about your next book? You're working on it.

Richie Jackson: 1:11:07

I am working on it. I'm not ready to say what it is, but

Jason Blitman: 1:11:10

okay.

Richie Jackson: 1:11:11

Three quarters through and I'm excited to share it

Jason Blitman: 1:11:14

You'll be back to talk about that book. I

Richie Jackson: 1:11:17

and I'll see you in Palm Springs.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:18

you in Palm Springs. Richie Jackson. Thank you so much for being here.

Richie Jackson: 1:11:22

I really enjoyed

Jason Blitman: 1:11:23

Everyone, check out gay like me. just came out a few years ago.

Richie Jackson: 1:11:27

Yes. And yeah it is available.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:30

Right. It's everywhere. Where have you got your books?

Richie Jackson: 1:11:32

I'm very proud to have I'm very honored to have been able to tell the story.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:36

love that.

1:11:37

Sean Books. Richie, thank you so much for being here. Everyone. Thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and I will see you next week. Bye.