0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason b Litman, and on today's episode I have Allison King talking to me about her book, the Phoenix Pencil Company, which is this month's Reese's Book Club Pick. And today's guest, gay reader is the delightful Jeff Hiller, who you know from HBO's somebody somewhere or Max or whatever, and. Jeff also has a new memoir out called Actress of a Certain Age, so you can check that out as well. Both books are out now and both of their bios are in the show notes. I was out protesting this past weekend, what an insane and important experience that was. I had some feelings about it, and so I wrote a little essay that I put up on the gay's reading Substack, and you could check that out basically about how. Reading is radical and can be a form of protest. And I don't know, I was having a little bit of feelings about the people who say they're allies or the people who say they're supportive but don't actually show it in their actions and how, you know, people don't necessarily always know how to show these things, uh, but they're really performing acts of activism behind the scenes that we don't necessarily see. So anyway, just some, some noodling thoughts about that. And in case you missed it, the Gaze Reading book Love is officially here. I am partnering with Altoa. I am so excited. Every month I'm going to choose a new book written by an lgbtqia plus author. Uh, your first book you can get for$1, and then every month after that. A book curated by yours truly will end up on your front porch or wherever your packages get delivered in the very first month. We're kicking off in July with Disappoint Me by Nicola Dine. It's so great and I cannot wait to chat with you. You'll become a part of a chat group and lots of fun ways to participate, and, and meet fellow book lovers in this little virtual book club. I am so excited. And for every membership I'll store a donates a book to an LGBTQ plus young person. So the TLDR support lgbtqia plus authors first book is the Dollar. There's a whole community of readers and donate a kid's book. Awesome. And all the books are so great. and I can't wait for you to check them out. The link to sign up is in the show notes and also on the gaze reading Instagram on the Link Tree. We're at Gaze Reading on Instagram. Make sure to follow us over there. There are some fun giveaways and we're on YouTube and Blue Sky and yeah, all the things you could find in the link tree and in the show notes. as always, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. like, and subscribe. Wherever you get your podcast, leave a review. It means so much. It's, it's been really exciting just to see some of the things that you've said about the show and sharing episodes that you've enjoyed and writing reviews and really it means so much. So thank you to those who have done so. Uh, and finally, since this is a book about pencils, I have to shout out the fantastic longhand pencils and Casey Baldwin who owns her own little pencil company. I love her pencil so much. This is not an ad. I mentioned in the episode that it was her pencils that really got me on a pencil kick, so I just wanted to shout her out. I highly recommend checking them out. Long hand pencils. Dot com and also longhand pencils on Instagram. There are such great quotes from books. Um, I have the set from, you've got Mail. I have a set from Hocus Pocus. I am obsessed with these pencils and I can't wait for you to check them out too. Alright, without further ado, please enjoy my conversations with Allison King and Jeff Hiller.

Jason Blitman: 4:32

welcome to Gay's Reading.

Allison King: 4:34

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Jason Blitman: 4:36

I'm so happy to have you to talk about the Phoenix Pencil Company. Gorgeous book cover.

Allison King: 4:42

Thank you. Yeah. That cover is audio. Did such a good job.

Jason Blitman: 4:45

and I just saw you posted the UK cover, which is also beautiful.

Allison King: 4:50

Yeah. Yeah. That's the one that I have next to me right now. So we can show that one too.

Jason Blitman: 4:54

Oh, how fun.

Allison King: 4:55

look at that.

Jason Blitman: 4:57

Every once in a while, a UK cover is maybe better than the American cover, but I have to say these are both equally great.

Allison King: 5:04

Yeah. Yeah. I think they both went different ways in good ways, but they both definitely focused on the pencil, which is cool.

Jason Blitman: 5:10

That makes sense.

Allison King: 5:11

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:11

Let's kick it off with an elevator pitch for the book. Do you have one?

Allison King: 5:14

I do. Yeah. So the book is, it focuses on a. Young woman. she's an engineer and she's home from college for the semester to take care of her aging grandparents. And while she is home, she discovers this long forgotten magic behind the pencil company that her grandmother once ran in 1940s Shanghai. So half of the book is written from this young. Engineer's point of view in modern day Cambridge, Massachusetts. And the other half of the book is written from her grandmother's point of view. Set in 1940s, 1950s Shanghai, Taiwan, and a little bit of the United States.

Jason Blitman: 5:55

And I that is very succinct and doesn't give anything away.

Allison King: 6:00

I'm glad.

Jason Blitman: 6:01

So a lot of, I, I don't want to give too much away from the book. Obviously we are spoiler free on gaze reading, so I'm gonna as I was prepping for this, a lot of my questions are related to things in the book without giving things away.

Allison King: 6:14

Ooh, okay.

Jason Blitman: 6:15

I'll leave it at that. To start, I have to know, do you read the terms and conditions?

Allison King: 6:22

I do not know. No,

Jason Blitman: 6:24

Thank you for being honest.

Allison King: 6:26

It's too much. And I briefly worked at a non-profit startup that did its best to humanize the terms and conditions, but even that's too much. It's too hard.

Jason Blitman: 6:37

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. The book, asks a lot of questions of technology. Um, And changing technology. And I think, the age of AI right now, you see a lot of parallels in the story. But you gave me this sort of light bulb moment. At some point in the middle of the book, I was like, oh, I could just put terms and conditions into chat GPT and have it synthesize it for me. And I was like, that's maybe genius slash really problematic, but I just wanted you to know that inspired it.

Allison King: 7:08

Wow. Yeah. No I had never thought to do that either.

Jason Blitman: 7:11

So You're welcome.

Allison King: 7:12

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'll probably still be too lazy to even copy and paste there

Jason Blitman: 7:16

I know but I have to also say that the book made me realize just how important it is to read the terms and conditions. Which I think you always know, like it's a thing, but

Allison King: 7:26

trust any of these.

Jason Blitman: 7:27

When did you fall in love with technology?

Allison King: 7:29

Oh, um,

Jason Blitman: 7:30

any of them.

Allison King: 7:31

yeah. I think I actually had a pretty similar experience to Monica where my dad also worked in China, starting when I was pretty young and we kept in touch through email. So Monica has this. Moment of, I think hers is a little more dramatic, but at this moment of being able to, of being able to email her father from all the way across the world. And she's younger than I am, but I guess when I was doing it, like email was a pretty. New thing, at least to the masses. And so it was cool to be able to sign onto the shared computer, the whole family owned, and email my dad. So yeah, I think that's probably when it started.

Jason Blitman: 8:11

The origin story of your love technology. I know the shared family computer thing.

Allison King: 8:16

It's wild to think about now. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:18

up trauma. Yeah, and then dial up all of that. Early on in the book there's a mention of homemade gifts and I Why do you think we all made those coupon books for our loved ones? Like I assume you did.

Allison King: 8:37

probably, I don't remember if I have made it the more recently for my partner but. I don't know if I ever did for like my parents or my grandparents. I don't remember, but I guess it always seemed to me like a good idea, and especially because I try not to get gifts that will let somebody accumulate a lot of stuff that they may or may not want.

Jason Blitman: 9:00

Yeah. No, that's fair. Coupon books were big in my family too, but I don't think we ever used them.

Allison King: 9:06

oh, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 9:07

recall a

Allison King: 9:07

the same with me. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 9:09

your partner has not turned has, they've not turned one in.

Allison King: 9:13

Nope. Not yet. Yeah, it's just sits there as a little momentum.'cause I like drew cartoons of me doing stuff, and I think that's more of the appeal than the actual coupon.

Jason Blitman: 9:23

That's amazing slash I. Yeah. Anyway, I just that came up in the book and it made me think about. How often we probably do things like that. And then I'm curious to know what the turn in ratio is or of the, of everyone's coupon books.

Allison King: 9:39

I guess it's the embodiment of like the thought is what counts so.

Jason Blitman: 10:20

that's true. I know. And then could you imagine did you put anything in there that you wouldn't want to do or that you thought oh, they're never gonna ask me to do this,

Allison King: 10:27

they were all things I didn't wanna do. They were all exercise oriented.'cause my partner is big into exercise. I'm not. So it was things like, we'll play tennis together or we'll play basketball again.

Jason Blitman: 10:36

So it's a good thing

Allison King: 10:38

Yeah. It is a good thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 10:41

I obviously fell down a major pencil, rabbit hole,

Allison King: 10:46

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 10:46

Because first of all, I. Learning about how they're made in the book. And then I found a bunch of YouTube videos that like showed you how they're made. And so that was super cool. There are lots of great YouTube videos. FYII also feel like I'm in a pencil era right now.

Allison King: 11:02

Oh, really? Tell me more.

11:04

So there's this great company called Longhand Pencils, and they, there are these quotes from books and movies, and this woman, Casey, she makes all these little sets of pencils I.

Allison King: 11:17

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 11:18

she has this really great company and I've purchased'em from her and I'm like, I don't know. I'm just always using pencils. Are you a pencil person?

Allison King: 11:25

Um, Not as much as you might think.

Jason Blitman: 11:27

No. That's okay. Just because you wrote about them doesn't mean that

Allison King: 11:30

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 11:31

love them. I just, I

Allison King: 11:32

I do,

Jason Blitman: 11:33

a pencil era.

Allison King: 11:34

I do love them and and, but I think that I don't use them as much as I did growing up and in school especially. I use them a lot in college, especially on all my. Anything math related. But after I stopped doing math, I didn't have to use pencils.

Jason Blitman: 11:51

It's funny that you say that because I really like. Pencils felt like a thing of the past to me, I don't know what it was that made me, I think,'cause these had like really cute quotes on them that made me want to use them and then I just like really enjoyed writing with them anyway, I have no idea. But that was

Allison King: 12:10

no, that's great. Yeah. Oh, I'm so happy for you.

Jason Blitman: 12:13

thank you watching some of these YouTube videos though. It was so interesting to see about. To learn about the sustainability of the wood, and just like all of the things that go into making pencils that you don't even realize

Allison King: 12:24

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 12:24

factory was in your family too.

Allison King: 12:27

it was, yeah, and I don't know that much. About the actual manufacturing process of that company. But I do remember my grandmother would tell me stories and for some reason the one that sticks with me is like when they actually pressed the wood onto the graphite and like in case it, and she was very, I dunno, she was very specific about that part for some reason.

Jason Blitman: 12:47

Yeah.

Allison King: 12:48

But yeah, they had a pencil company in China first and then, following World War II is when they moved it to Taiwan. So it's actually a little different from in the book. It does, the same thing happens in the book, but my grandparents actually went quite a bit earlier thinking that it was more of a opportunity to expand the pencil company as opposed to fleeing the war. So,

Jason Blitman: 13:13

Interesting. Because of the nature of the story, which we'll get into in a minute, I, I don't know what it was. And I realized I think this morning that I had a piece of graphite in my hand from when I was a kid, because I feel like that was all of us at some point as young people. I don't know if that ever happened to you, but I like got stabbed with a pencil in my hand and had a piece of graphite in my hand for

Allison King: 13:35

It's still there.

Jason Blitman: 13:37

It's like very. Very light, but up until a few years ago, I could like still see it,

Allison King: 13:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 13:45

was sort of astonishing to me.

Allison King: 13:47

yeah, I didn't really know that was I think I saw a video about that recently that kind of just stays with you. And I, I didn't realize that when I wrote the book, but it works with what happens in the

Jason Blitman: 13:57

Totally. I don't wanna give too much away, but can you describe a little bit about. The Reforging and how that idea came to you.'cause I find it so unique in terms of a storytelling device.

Allison King: 14:11

Thanks. Yeah, so when I first started writing the book, it was more I had, I was interested in the time period and I wanted to write about a a family of pencil makers in that time period. And, and then at the time I had been writing a lot more fantasy or speculative fiction, and so I wanted to give it some speculative element. And that was what naturally came, where I guess when you're trying to think of a speculative element, it boils down to what about this pencil or other object is like the coolest thing that could happen to it? And I think the, like the coolest thing about a pencil to me is that it writes stories or it has this relationship with the writer that only it has and or like other writing utensils will have as well. But that's what I wanted to explore a bit, and so I thought. Okay. What if other people could access the stories that a pencil once wrote, and how does that change things? And then that kind of just merged with all the other things of the book.

Jason Blitman: 15:17

Sure. What I find so interesting about it is that it's not, I use the word storytelling device, which I guess is true, but it's not. It's just this, part of the world.

Allison King: 15:28

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 15:29

World of the book and it isn't explained or described, and there's not like a lore behind it. It's just you tell us that this happens and we believe it as the reader because that's it. And I think that's a super cool way of including it as a part of the story.

Allison King: 15:44

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I wanted it to be like this kind of neutral power that was just hanging out that ran in the family, but. It was up to the family, whether or not they would tell like their descendants about the power. And but I want it to be neutral because I think like it doesn't necessarily give them great skills or or it does give them like a cool thing that they can do, but it's up to them, like how they use it. And it can be used for like really cool things or really bad things.

Jason Blitman: 16:15

Was there ever anything like that in your family where it was up to. Your elders to pass on something to you that, or share with you that you may or may not have learned otherwise. That was a piece of you.

Allison King: 16:31

Probably, learning Chinese for instance, that's probably one of them where I think it was something that. My parents very much wanted me and my brother to, to pick up on and learn, but a lot of it, it's still up to like me and how much I wanted to devote to doing something that's pretty difficult. I think about it with recipes too, because my grandmother was a great cook and she like cooked everything, but then once she had Alzheimer's, a lot of those recipes were just lost because none of the kids learned

Jason Blitman: 17:00

Yeah, I'm sure recipes and food is a big is a big piece of it for a lot of people.

Allison King: 17:06

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:07

I know that a lot of my aunts and uncles are. Upset that they didn't learn how to make a very specific thing that my great-grandmother made. And it's lost to history now.

Allison King: 17:19

yeah, Yeah. That's how my mom and her siblings feel too, I think.

Jason Blitman: 17:23

you know, You were talking about pencils and how they write stories. The book is an inherently about stories and storytelling and I think similar to technology. When did you fall in love with stories?

Allison King: 17:36

Oh. Very early on, I think where it was like my grandmother would read me stories to. To sleep. So I have like very clear memories of me being maybe like four or five and in bed. And my grandmother, they had a little futon. She would lie on next to me and then she would be reading a Chinese story and I would just fall asleep to that. So yeah, that's probably how it started.

Jason Blitman: 18:00

Are there any stories that you recall impacting you as a kid?

Allison King: 18:04

Yeah. I was very into Red Wall. So

Jason Blitman: 18:07

I

Allison King: 18:07

I was like super into, oh, red Wall, the Brian Jacques with the mice and I, there's like a whole series of'em. But they're

Jason Blitman: 18:15

I'm a late in life reader, so anything like, anything that came out before, basically eight years ago, I have not picked up.

Allison King: 18:23

yeah, it is on the older side, but there are a lot of them. So maybe some of them came out. No, they probably didn't come out within the last eight years, but they were coming out at a pretty steady clip and I would ask for them for Christmas and read them. But yeah, they're like little mice and woodland creature warriors. It's very fun.

Jason Blitman: 18:42

Something said in the book is that stories are priceless and. It had me thinking a lot about stories that we tell and stories that we share and what stories are preserved and how we adapt our own stories or how we hear and interpret other people's stories but also how preserving stories is not. It's not always a good thing. And so it made me think about the difference between preserving stories versus releasing memories and what's important to keep versus things that are happening to you in your life that are worth purging. Does any of that mean anything to you?

Allison King: 19:22

Yeah, I think a lot about it in terms of I think there are stories that I would like to share, but with different, at like different levels of, sharing. So there are some that I would only like to share with like my family or that I would only like to share with my friends. And and then maybe that circle gets really wide and some of it is stuff that I'm happy to share publicly. But I think, yeah, I think a lot of the, what I was exploring here was that with the internet the, almost the default is very public. And if I wanted to send something to just my friends, I have to find all their emails basically and put it all together. Or if I have curated my close friends list on Instagram or something, which I have not done. But I think there's there's not that many levels of openness on the internet. It's like. Everyone gets it, or like a very small number of people get it. And I think that's I think in the book I wanted to explore oh, this is something that I think this grandmother would want, like her granddaughter to know, but not necessarily anyone other than that.

Jason Blitman: 20:34

Yeah. It puts an interesting pressure is maybe the word the granddaughter to be the one to keep that story alive, right? So there is like that element of preserving the story, but also if the audience is limited, then it also in turn limits the number of people who can continue to tell it. So there's that interesting balance too,

Allison King: 20:57

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good

Jason Blitman: 20:58

a story sacred Keeping it alive

Allison King: 21:01

Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if once, the grandmother passes away and it's not a story that can hurt her anymore. Do you recalculate it then and think okay, maybe it is okay to share it more, or if it's something that you keep forever? I don't know. It's just something to think about.

Jason Blitman: 21:18

'cause then you're doing that, the calculus of, Why was it so sacred in the first place? There's a quote that in the book, it's about sharing enough of ourselves to form true real connections. And I was so intrigued by the enough of ourselves, and I'm curious, what is enough to you? Like, how do you, what's the level of learning about someone that means that you can have a real connection with them?

Allison King: 21:45

Oh no. I don't know. I think it's, I think it's different for everyone.

Jason Blitman: 21:48

you wrote that Allison. You got me thinking about it.

Allison King: 21:52

Yeah, sorry about that. I think it depends I think there's people you want in your lives for different reasons. Like they fill in different needs for you. And I think it's like you shouldn't need to know everything about somebody to make it feel like you, you're like friends with them or,'cause I feel like I'm friends with some people that I don't actually know all that well, but when we hang out, it's like fun and I have a good time.

Jason Blitman: 22:19

Yeah

Allison King: 22:20

I think that's perfectly fine too.

Jason Blitman: 22:23

No, I understand that The best thing to do when you're sad is to learn something or to teach something.

Allison King: 22:31

I stole that from a different book

Jason Blitman: 22:33

You did.

Allison King: 22:34

I did. Yes. Or the inspiration first from the Once and Future King by TH White. I don't know if you've read that. It wasn't published in the last eight years, so maybe not.

Jason Blitman: 22:43

it's actually so funny because, no, I haven't read that, but Lev Grossman was on gay's reading to talk about the bright

Allison King: 22:50

Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm a big Love Grossman fan as well. And I love the bright sword. But

Jason Blitman: 22:56

It's actually funny. That was gonna be one of my guesses for one of the books behind you'cause of the

Allison King: 23:00

oh, it's actually not, I read it on my e-readers

Jason Blitman: 23:03

Okay, Whatever book is at the bottom, whatever that blue book is at the bottom has the same color

Allison King: 23:07

Oh, it does. It's actually it's actually Jay Legacy. It's actually two copies of Jay

Jason Blitman: 23:12

Oh, how funny.

Allison King: 23:13

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:14

So you stole that from the Once in Future King, but I'm curious what. Is there something that you recall learning in a time when you quote unquote needed to whether you were sad or, was there something that learn where learning helped you in that way? I.

Allison King: 23:30

Yeah, I think so. There was a moment where, just like last year or, yeah, I think it was last year where I was between jobs and I was doing my edits for this book, but it wasn't like taking up my whole day and I was struggling with other writing and I just had too much time, really. Which feels weird to say now, but

Jason Blitman: 23:49

Do you not have enough time now?

Allison King: 23:51

I. No I have, I don't know, I'm very happy with how things are now, but but I guess it sounds like an ungrateful thing to say that I had too much time at that point and I was just aimless and not really sure what I was doing. And so I, I do I code I'm a software engineer and I was between jobs at the time, on purpose to focus more on the book for a few months. And then, but then I. I found that I couldn't feel my whole day writing. It was too tiring and or even reading. And so I started coding again and coding like just for fun and learning about, I don't know, the latest in like CSS. And I feel like that really motivated me some more and made me feel happy again.

Jason Blitman: 25:08

You and my husband the same.

Allison King: 25:10

really?

Jason Blitman: 25:11

He'll be like doing something. I'm like, what are you doing? He's I'm learning for

Allison King: 25:15

Yeah, it's fun.

Jason Blitman: 25:16

I'm coding for fun. I'm working on a project for fun. I'm like, okay. What was that journey like for you from, you're still a software engineer, but go turning from incorporating writing into your life as well.

Allison King: 25:29

Yeah. So I feel like I've always been writing since I was pretty young. And. It was when I was in college that really engineering took over. And so I didn't get to do that much writing while I was studying. But then once I was out of college, I had a lot more time and started writing again. Mostly at nights and on weekends. So yeah, I just doing that. I think I've been pretty lucky with my. Software jobs that they've had, like pretty good work life balance. So I was able to pull that off. But yeah,

Jason Blitman: 26:03

Do you find that if diving headfirst into coding helps when you're maybe sad or need to have escape, does writing. Balance that too. If coding is not the right moment for you

Allison King: 26:18

I don't know. I

Jason Blitman: 26:19

the face says no. The, your face is Nope, the writing is stressful. Let me go back to coding.

Allison King: 26:25

Yeah.'Cause, because writing it's, you are like so in your head about it for a very long time and no one is telling you whether you are doing well or not until you like share it with people. But sometimes I feel like I can't share it yet'cause it's not good enough yet.

Jason Blitman: 26:39

Sorry.

Allison King: 26:39

And so I'm just in my own. Cycle of self-doubt. And whereas with coding like you get pretty immediate feedback on if your code works or not, and it feels good when your code does work. And if you're a coding for like as part of a company that makes a product then you have like users who tell you how you're doing and you have your teammates who tell you if you're. Code is like off to par or not. And I feel like that's, I think that was something that I was missing when I was between jobs where I didn't feel like I was making like noticeable progress on a lot of things. And I think that was what kind of had me a little dismayed.

Jason Blitman: 27:19

Sure. No, that makes sense. It's hard working in a sort of solo operation as. A person who hosts a podcast by himself can tell you. Is there, do you see storytelling in coding?

Allison King: 27:35

Yeah in some senses. I think it depends what it is. Like a lot of the time you're just I don't know. You're building a component to a designer specifications and that's pretty straightforward and you're. Doing that, but there's always like the user story of like how the component will be used. And you can always think about like different users using it and what, like how they might land on the page and how they might interact with the whatever you're building in different ways. I think more often for me, because I don't I'm not really in a user facing role. It's more about how do I explain the code that I've just written to my teammates who are. Deepen their own work silos and, but then they have to come and review my code. So it's a matter of presenting like why my thing matters and why it should be merged into the code base.

Jason Blitman: 28:25

Yeah, that makes sense. My husband is not in a user facing position either. It's a lot about like business

Allison King: 28:32

Oh, interesting.

Jason Blitman: 28:34

Yeah. Anyway, so a lot of like behind the scenes stuff,

Allison King: 28:37

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 28:38

the book is talks about, I'll say in quotes, memory work.

Allison King: 28:43

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 28:44

Work mean to you?

Allison King: 28:46

Yeah, so I think memory work has a real definition.

Jason Blitman: 28:51

Oh, tell me what is memory Work?

Allison King: 28:54

I would have to look it up to get the exact definition, but it's something within digital archiving and, or not necessarily digital archiving, but archiving in general. And if I remember correctly, which I am not an archivist. That makes sense. So this is some research that I did on my own, but it's about kind of recording things but keeping in mind that you are leaving out perspectives and trying to keep in mind what those perspectives might mean, might be, and how. If you did have them, like how things would change within that within what you are recording.

Jason Blitman: 29:30

The very reliable resource Wikipedia. Memory work is a process of engaging with the past, which has both an ethical and historical dimension. During memory work, the process of producing an image or what we refer to as the production of the imagery is central. Therefore, the key in the analysis of remembering history are contradictions. The calls for an expanding archive that include the oral and popular tradition, as well as written traditions normally associated with the archives. It's like far

Allison King: 29:58

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 29:58

than I was expecting.

Allison King: 29:59

that sounds right.

Jason Blitman: 30:00

It just had me thinking so much about our memory and like the idea of a mind without memory comes up in the book and I, and it just I was like, what does that even seem feel like? Or what is that? What is that? Is our, does our mind exist without memory?

Allison King: 30:19

Yeah. I don't know. It's, yeah, I think that's something that a lot of people who are smarter than I am have wondered and like at what point are you still yourself? And I think there's also some discussions of I think a lot of literature represents Alzheimer's as. Oh, that person is still there. They come back every so often and they are still who they are, even if their personality has changed a lot. And'cause Alzheimer's can change their personality like really quite a bit. As opposed to viewing it as like a transformation of oh, this is what this person, how this person is now and this is who they are now. And accepting that versus like still trying to clinging onto who they used to be.

Jason Blitman: 31:02

Yeah. And it, that's such an interesting concept because our. Are we who we are because of our memories, because of the pieces that have made us who we are. What does that mean? Like my niece is two and a half, but she has like a full blown personality, so she doesn't have that many memories, but she's still like a very much a person. And I can imagine that sort of will be the. The sort of heart of who she is forever Just'cause that's what I could see. So it just really had me thinking a lot about that. Like we don't, I'm just you don't need to have a real answer in terms of a philosophy book, but what does Allison think? What do you feel like you are made up of your memories? Does that make you who you are?

Allison King: 31:48

I think so, but in a way, I think it's a societal thing. I guess a social pressure for me where like I might wake up one day and say, I wanna be like a really good weightlifter. And then I'll start like hitting the gym and like lifting a bunch of weights. But at the same time, I think I might think, oh, but that's not who I am. That's not the story that I have come to think of myself. Like I am, I'm a software engineer. I sit at my computer and I code. Like it would be weird if I just started lifting weights and but

Jason Blitman: 32:22

Would it

Allison King: 32:23

I think once. No, I think it, it actually I actually do with weights but I think it did take me a while to come to terms with that and be like, this is healthy for me and I should do it.

Jason Blitman: 32:33

I, this is like a humble brag, but Anne Patchett was on gay's reading and I like said something like that to her and she said, you are the story, you tell yourself and I that I have that in my mind every single day because I. What is the story I'm telling myself? I had an interesting conversation with a handful of people about earrings, and I was like, for some reason inspired to get earrings, but I was like, I don't think I'm a person. I'm not the guy who gets earrings. And then I had this crisis of why am I not the guy that gets earrings? And what does that mean? Long story short, I've since pierced my ears.

Allison King: 33:06

Hey, nice. I can't see your ears, but I'm sure they look great.

Jason Blitman: 33:10

But Right. Along the lines of what you're talking about, there is that weird societal pressure slash expectation and is the past Jason and the memories and quotes of Jason, does that make up who I am? And does that mean I'm not allowed to get earrings? I don't know.

Allison King: 33:27

Yeah. I think it's for the same reason that sometimes you're more comfortable sharing like details about your life with total strangers compared to family members where. Like you have this thought of how your family thinks of you and that colors the way that you think that you can share things that might upend that expectation. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:51

I have this compulsion to say, is there anything you wanna share that your family doesn't know? But this is, this podcast is eventually gonna go somewhere and they might

Allison King: 34:00

Maybe not in this medium. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:02

so funny. There's also something about memories that comes up about someone says, if only I could pick and choose the memories that I keep. What would you choose to keep?

Allison King: 34:13

I think my brain does a pretty good job of throwing out the memories I don't want.

Jason Blitman: 34:17

Yeah. Oh, I'm

Allison King: 34:18

so I think it's doing a good job.

Jason Blitman: 34:20

Really? Are you telling me you don't have any trauma?

Allison King: 34:24

No, I definitely do, but I think it does a good job of I don't know, focusing on other stuff and and I think that, yeah, I think something I was exploring in the book is like how much forgetting is good versus bad. Where I think a lot of I think in tech, certainly like everything, the more you can, like the more data you have, the better for tech purposes, for, the big tech corporations. Whereas that's not true of the human mind. There's stuff that you definitely do want to forget. I remember, I think this was Ken Lu said that it'd be cool if Twitter just deleted your posts. That were like more than five years old. That's not really, that might not be who you are anymore.

Jason Blitman: 35:05

Yeah.

Allison King: 35:07

And if you were to go back and look at your Twitter posts from five years ago, you might be surprised too.

Jason Blitman: 35:12

Absolutely. Slash is it, do we want to get rid of those pieces of us? And that sort of like cycles back to our memories making us who we are. And then of course there's the question of like you said, your brain is good at forgetting the things that aren't worth remembering, but do you actually forget? Are they like,

Allison King: 35:32

Oh yeah. No, I'm, they're all there.

Jason Blitman: 35:33

You know what I mean? It's all there. So what does that even really mean? Are we having an existential crisis?

Allison King: 35:39

Yeah, no, no crisis right now, but, um, but

Jason Blitman: 35:42

having anti existential crisis?

Allison King: 35:44

it's okay. It's okay. I think it is all about like as long I think what I mean by it, when I say that my brain's good at forgetting is that I think I'm good at telling the story about myself and then. And then anything that doesn't align with that story, I'm like, that didn't happen. Or, not that it didn't happen, but I just don't think about that anymore. And then if I am confronted with it, then I'm like horrified. But but I think it is all about like the story you've created for yourself.

Jason Blitman: 36:10

Yeah. My mother-in-law grew up in Brooklyn, lived for 30 years on Staten Island and now lives in Westchester. And when she talks about her life she'll say, I grew up in Brooklyn and now I live in Westchester, and she

Allison King: 36:24

It's 30 years

Jason Blitman: 36:25

Throws away the 30 years in Staten Island.

Allison King: 36:29

That's

Jason Blitman: 36:29

like, listen, if that's the story you wanna be telling about yourself I guess I get it, and you can rewrite that version of who you are and how you want to be perceived. And, Yeah it's interesting just to think about who we want people to. I guess how we wanna be perceived is the way to, is the way to say it, because what you were saying about societal pressure and like weightlifting and what is that? How suddenly are people perceiving you? There's just a lot of

Allison King: 36:55

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:56

anyway. Maybe I am having an existential crisis. That's what your book did to me. That's okay. Monica was sent to study Chinese while her grandparents played Mahjong and always came back with a different snack. What would your snack be?

Allison King: 37:13

Oh, this would imply that I'm in Taiwan. So probably there's like a salt and pepper, chicken nugget kind of thing that is just sold in stalls. You basically, you they have it all out and then you like point out what you want and then they'll re fry it for you and put it in a little paper bag and give you like skewers to eat it with, and you just walk down the street eating your fried chicken. It's delightful.

Jason Blitman: 37:37

Wait, re fry it so it's like a double fried

Allison King: 37:40

I think so, or somehow they like heat it up again and it's all crunchy and hot again.'Cause normally they just lay it out and then you just choose And they have like french fries and other fried things as well, so you can get like a bag of fried food.

Jason Blitman: 37:54

Okay. I guess it's like in this day it's like a pizza slice. They have the pizza slices Them and stick them in the oven to

Allison King: 37:59

yeah. Yeah. Pretty much.

Jason Blitman: 38:01

Okay. I always talk about food on cake's reading, so it was really, it was important to me to think about what snacks you were coming home with.

Allison King: 38:08

Yeah. What snack would you be getting?

Jason Blitman: 38:11

I don't know. I'm not a I don't wanna say I'm not a big snacker'cause that's not a hundred percent true, but I don't know. I'm not, I don't like do popcorn. I'm not a big chips person, so I don't really, I'm not a hundred percent sure I

Allison King: 38:24

Yeah. Something to think about.

Jason Blitman: 38:25

I'm very much like a cheese and crackers or like carrots and hummus sort of

Allison King: 38:29

Uhhuh. That works. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:30

that I will say the book made me want to desperately learn how to play Mahjong.

Allison King: 38:37

Oh, it's a lot of fun.

Jason Blitman: 38:38

Yeah.

Allison King: 38:39

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:40

is what's your favorite thing about Mahjong?

Allison King: 38:42

So I played, I learned growing up because you need four people to play Mahjong. You like

Jason Blitman: 38:47

Which I also learned about in the book.

Allison King: 38:50

you, cannot play without four people. And so I have a great uncle who lives in Taiwan who plays a lot of Mahjong and and so every Sunday it's like a whole day affair where he will come to my aunt's place and they will play Mahjong from morning till dinner time and and, but my aunts have to do this every week and so whenever I went back to Taiwan they'd be like, Hey, you can play now. And so I would be roped into playing and I always had so much fun playing and I. Although I always got like scolded for being a slow player because I wasn't a regular player and my great-uncle just wanted to like, go and throw out his dials. But yeah, so for me, I think it's always like that family feeling of being like, you're like literally surrounded by like people who you're playing this day long game with. And it doesn't have to take a day. You do not have to spend that long playing it. But yeah. Yeah, and it's like enough luck based that, like my Greatuncle is not the one who's always winning, even though he does win most of the time so, so it's kind of fun to, to win occasionally.

Jason Blitman: 39:56

That's really fun. When I was telling my husband about the four players thing, he said, he asked me if I saw a thing going around the internet about a woman who has like a self shuffling mahjong table. And I was like, no, I have not seen that. And then he sent it to me and it's so fun. It, they like, the table opens up and you push the things inside and it like self shuffles and then repopulates. Have you seen it?

Allison King: 40:18

I have. I've seen the videos. Yeah. I've never seen a real one, but it does look like

Jason Blitman: 40:22

I had never saw the video till yesterday. I was like, that's so cool.

Allison King: 40:26

Yeah. Yeah. Great innovations in the Mahjong world.

Jason Blitman: 40:29

And isn't there something like the rules change quarterly or something, or they like add a

Allison King: 40:33

Oh, I don't know about that? My, my great uncle has played with the same rules for probably decades.

Jason Blitman: 40:39

Oh, that's funny. I know my mom plays with a group of friends and I think there's something about every so often something changes. I

Allison King: 40:46

Oh, interesting. Yeah, I do know that like different, there are different ways of playing it and a lot of people have different roles,

Jason Blitman: 40:51

interesting. Are you a big game person in general, or

Allison King: 40:56

I don't know. I do have on the bottom shelf of this bookshelf is some board games, but I haven't played in a bit. I play some video games every so often.

Jason Blitman: 41:03

Oh, that's fair. And in your line of work. That makes sense too. We, with some friends play the game wingspan.

Allison King: 41:10

Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a good one.

Jason Blitman: 41:12

It's a great game. It is so complicated. And so when my husband was like, Mahjong is so complicated. I was like, wingspan is so complicated. If we could learn wingspan, we could learn Mahjong. So anyway, on a crusade, I'll keep you posted.

Allison King: 41:23

Yeah. Yeah. Let me know if you need a fourth person to play Masha.

Jason Blitman: 41:28

Are you bad at doing nothing?

Allison King: 41:31

Probably, yeah. Could you tell?

Jason Blitman: 41:33

I can tell there's a que that comes up in the book about being bad at doing nothing, and I was like having a sense of you. And now having talked to you for 40 minutes, like I think Allison is one of those people who can't do nothing.

Allison King: 41:47

I think that's probably true. I did try to read the book. Is it called How to Do Nothing,

Jason Blitman: 41:52

Oh yes, actually

Allison King: 41:53

Yeah, I didn't make it past the first chapter, but

Jason Blitman: 41:57

are like, I can't sit here and do this. I have to go be productive.

Allison King: 42:00

Yeah. Although, reading that should be predictive, but I don't know. I just didn't get that into it right away, so

Jason Blitman: 42:04

that's fair. What is, what does relaxing look like to you?

Allison King: 42:08

Mostly like crawling up on the couch and reading. I have a dog and a cat, so I hang out with them a lot and they hang out with me on the couch and, yeah. Reading, hanging out with friends, cooking. I do some cooking, but yeah.

Jason Blitman: 42:23

that all sounds relaxing. Okay. I know. I wish there was like an, for me, I think my best doing nothing. This is gonna sound so terrible and I, and very sacrilegious, but I think listening to audio books or podcasts is the, is such a great way to feel productive while not expelling too much energy, if that makes sense.'Cause reading you, your eyes, your, there's To something I could like just chill and close my eyes and my brain can

Allison King: 42:52

I, that's nice. I, yeah, I like that. Yeah, I definitely been doing like audio books and podcasts on J and that definitely helps a lot just to keep my mind like awake but still engaged. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:05

yeah. No, I feel that in the book, pencils they are used as a means of communication in many different forms. a keeping of memories, communicating, sharing stories, those are all major themes in the book. Is it a fair assessment to say this book was that for you? I.

Allison King: 43:28

Oh, interesting. Yeah, I think so. I think so. It is based, it's like very loosely based on my family who it at the pencil company and but there aren't any like actual real details about my family in there. But I think. Before this book, I did not know that much about the various time periods that I was writing about. It was because I had read this book called The Last Boat Out of Shanghai. It's a nonfiction book that follows I think four families who leave Shanghai during that time or who flee Shanghai during that time. And I think that was what really made me interested in that. Time period. And that ended up helping me do a lot of research into the various parts that these characters would've lived through. So I think in that way it was like a way of learning more about what my family had lived through. And honestly a lot of Monica, what Monica goes through is pretty similar to what I've gone through as well. So I've mentioned the dad who was working in China and also the the grandmother with Alzheimer's. I think a lot of that was also like me thinking through some of those experiences.

Jason Blitman: 44:41

I, and I think some of what I mean even by communicating and sharing stories, some of it can just be. Metaphor or topics or, encouraging other people to think about their own family histories or their own memory or their own relationship with their grandparents. I didn't necessarily mean, Allison keeping a record of her life in

Allison King: 45:03

I see.

Jason Blitman: 45:04

But but yeah, a way of communicating to the readers, the value of memories and stories

Allison King: 45:12

Yeah. Yeah. I hope

Jason Blitman: 45:13

takeaway that this was a version of your journal entry diary,

Allison King: 45:18

Yeah. Yeah. No, I like the way you put that.

Jason Blitman: 45:21

and it was like a journal entry a story that you're creating keeping a memory all rolled into one thing.

Allison King: 45:29

Yeah. Yeah. I never thought about it that way, but I'm glad that's what you came away with.

Jason Blitman: 45:34

Congratulations. This is coming out on Papier, so we're not giving anything away,

Allison King: 45:38

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 45:38

I'm very excited for you. How are

Allison King: 45:40

Oh, thank you. Good. Yeah. Yeah. It's. It's, I feel like it's gonna be a pretty wild ride and I'm like bracing myself for that. I talked to Emily Everett, who was the pick for April I think, or no March all that life can afford, and she said it was being like shot outta the cannon in five days. So I'm getting ready to go into the cannon,

Jason Blitman: 46:03

I'm so excited for you. Everyone. Go get your copy of the Phoenix Pencil Company by Allison King. It is out now, wherever you get your books. And congratulations.

Allison King: 46:14

No, thank you so much. Yeah, thanks so much for having me and for all the fun questions.

Jason Blitman: 46:17

My pleasure. Thank you for being here. Wait, I'm hitting record, so I can acknowledge your funny girl t-shirt whilst recording.

Jeff Hiller: 46:30

You know it's her birthday.

Jason Blitman: 46:32

the memo.

Jeff Hiller: 46:33

It's her birthday.

Jason Blitman: 46:34

It today is her birthday.

Jeff Hiller: 46:36

I just saw that on Zoom, but I was already wearing the shirt.

Jason Blitman: 46:38

Well, and this really, it's June. Happy Pride

Jeff Hiller: 46:45

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 46:45

and, and, and Barbara Streisand's birthday at the same time. Oh my God. Meanwhile, I was just looking at a Reductress headline on Instagram that said How to Smell an Auntie Ann's pretzel without remembering Who you Once were. And I was like, I'm a little bummed. It's Reductress.'cause I would read that article.

Jeff Hiller: 47:09

That is so good. That is, they always have the best headlines. I've been doing standup shows and like now people are like, she writes, uh, headlines for re and that's like her credit and they call'em up and I'm like, work respect.

Jason Blitman: 47:24

What's hilarious though? It's like, it's what we actually want. Like there's, it's like not even being funny, it's just like giving the people what they want.

Jeff Hiller: 47:35

That's also how I read the New York Times.

Jason Blitman: 47:39

Truly Right. I take it a hundred percent. Seriously.

Jeff Hiller: 47:44

Exactly. And it's just the headline, maybe the paragraph

Jason Blitman: 47:48

Right. What's the little byline like under the byline? Yeah.

Jeff Hiller: 47:51

That little like intro paragraph.

Jason Blitman: 47:53

right? Exactly. Um, hi Jeff. I'm Jason.

Jeff Hiller: 47:57

Hi

Jason Blitman: 47:58

It's so nice to properly meet you. thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Jeff Hiller: 48:03

Well, thank you. It's, I'm excited.

Jason Blitman: 48:05

Fantastic. You don't even know what you're in for. Jeff, since you are my guest gay reader, what are you reading?

Jeff Hiller: 48:11

Um, well, okay. I'm reading several things.

Jason Blitman: 48:16

tell me everything. Hopefully not the comment section.

Jeff Hiller: 48:22

Uh, one really has to work hard not to, um, I'll read the headlines

Jason Blitman: 48:27

I write, just the headlines, not the comments.

Jeff Hiller: 48:32

Um, I, I just finished rereading two books. One of them is called Becoming a Man by Paul Monet.

Jason Blitman: 48:42

Oh

Jeff Hiller: 48:43

Um, have you heard of it?

Jason Blitman: 48:44

no. Is he related to the painter?

Jeff Hiller: 48:46

No. Different spelling.

Jason Blitman: 48:48

is he related to the exchange?

Jeff Hiller: 48:52

Also a different exing,

Jason Blitman: 48:53

Oh, okay. Look at

Jeff Hiller: 48:56

although.

Jason Blitman: 48:57

of spelling Monet. I didn't even know.

Jeff Hiller: 49:00

Although I, it's M-O-N-E-T-T-E, uh, is this Paul Monet, but, um, Monet Exchange Honey, love her. She's my favorite queen of the moment, I have to say.

Jason Blitman: 49:13

Yeah, me too.

Jeff Hiller: 49:13

Have you been watching Untucked this season?'cause or not untucked, uh, pit Stop. She is such a great host.

Jason Blitman: 49:21

dedicate so much time to the actual program, that additional content, it's like too much for me. Which is so funny that you just said you've re you're now rereading two books.'cause like rereading, it's, that's the, that's the version of watching Pit Stop.

Jeff Hiller: 49:36

Well, what else am I supposed to do? Sit with my feelings. I don't have children.

Jason Blitman: 49:42

the rest of us, Jeff. Oh my God. Be disheveled and upset. That's what we do

Jeff Hiller: 49:51

Well, I'm still bad. I just, you know, read so I can disassociate.

Jason Blitman: 49:54

Okay. Wait, tell me about this book by a Monet that I've never heard of before.

Jeff Hiller: 49:58

Paul Monet. He is a poet. Okay. This is the fact that I just found out about him. That is like, um, I think you'll appreciate,

Jason Blitman: 50:05

on the edge of my scene.

Jeff Hiller: 50:06

maybe most people won't. He's, he was, he's dead. He died in the nineties of aids. Um, he was really good friends with Judith Light.

Jason Blitman: 50:16

No way.

Jeff Hiller: 50:19

Yeah. Um, anyway, he wrote. Two books. Uh, well he wrote many books. He was a poet primarily, but he wrote, um, a book called Borrow on Borrowed Time, which was a, a memoir about his, um, being HIV positive and then having aids and he lost two lovers to it as well. And, that one I'm never gonna reread, although I did read it once, but I read that a long, long time ago. But, um,

Jason Blitman: 50:43

to dust up.

Jeff Hiller: 50:44

exactly, but. Becoming a Man is a book that I, I have, have not read since I first started coming out. And I'm, I'm going on a lot of podcasts and you're not the only book podcast I've been on, but I love this one.

Jason Blitman: 50:59

that's okay.

Jeff Hiller: 51:01

And she was like, can you tell me a book that was fundamental in your life? And I was like, yeah. Becoming a Man by Paul Monet. And,

Jason Blitman: 51:09

now it's a good reminder.

Jeff Hiller: 51:11

so then I reread it. To talk about it with her'cause she read it too. And it was sort of like a book club. But, um,

Jason Blitman: 51:17

I don't make you do that much work.

Jeff Hiller: 51:19

which by the way, bless. Thank you so much. Uh, but

Jason Blitman: 51:23

to write a book to get on the show, but.

Jeff Hiller: 51:28

Yeah, you're right.

Jason Blitman: 51:29

but after that I'm not requiring much more. So

Jeff Hiller: 51:34

That's very sweet of you. Um,

Jason Blitman: 51:36

I'm here for you. I'm

Jeff Hiller: 51:38

but also just like acknowledging the difficulty of writing a book that I appreciate that, uh,

Jason Blitman: 51:43

Was it hard? No. We'll

Jeff Hiller: 51:46

it

Jason Blitman: 51:46

talk about that in minute.

Jeff Hiller: 51:47

It was a little hard. Um, it, it, I mean, actually it was kind of easier than I thought it would be, but it was still hard. It was still

Jason Blitman: 51:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, did you say you, wait, you reread two books?

Jeff Hiller: 51:59

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and the other one I just recently reread, which is like, this is self-help book,

Jason Blitman: 52:05

Um,

Jeff Hiller: 52:06

but it's called The Velvet Rage. Do you know it?

Jason Blitman: 52:09

I, it's on my shelf. I

Jeff Hiller: 52:11

But never read it.

Jason Blitman: 52:13

I've not read it. I love, especially with nonfiction, uh, reading the book, reading the physical book while listening to the audio. And I keep deferring the library audio hold

Jeff Hiller: 52:25

Uh,

Jason Blitman: 52:25

because I just don't have time. Um, but it's, it's

Jeff Hiller: 52:28

poor Libby. She's doing so much clerical work for you.

Jason Blitman: 52:30

know that Libby bless, I wish she would do more for me, but it's a lot of, uh, it's pushing. She's doing a lot of pushing and, and if she could, you know, track my emails or calendar or, you know,

Jeff Hiller: 52:48

that would be a lot. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 52:51

Um,

Jeff Hiller: 52:52

But then the book that I, both of those books I've actually already finished, but the book I'm currently reading is, um, this new book by Jeffrey Self called

Jason Blitman: 52:59

yes. Self-sabotage.

Jeff Hiller: 53:01

Exactly. Um.

Jason Blitman: 53:03

Self, former guest, gay reader on gay's reading.

Jeff Hiller: 53:06

Oh, really? Uh, I'm so worried about him. Did you read the book?

Jason Blitman: 53:12

Not the whole thing. I read some of it.

Jeff Hiller: 53:15

you are so honest about this. All,

Jason Blitman: 53:18

listen, with this guest gay reader segment, the whole point of me starting it was because I have too many books and I'm like, I want to talk to people and, and without the pressure of like going deep into their books, but then everyone's books are so good and interesting and I'm like, God, I'm, I'm like reading more than I prom told myself I'm reading more than I told my therapist I would.

Jeff Hiller: 53:38

Wait, your therapist tells you not to read.

Jason Blitman: 53:40

Well, my therapist is like, Jason, you have to start reading for fun.

Jeff Hiller: 53:43

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 53:44

be reading for the podcast or only be reading and it feeling like work. I'm like, I know, but it all, it all becomes fun.

Jeff Hiller: 53:52

Well, what do you read for fun? Like are you more of a fiction person, a nonfiction person? What

Jason Blitman: 53:56

depends on the day, all sorts of things.

Jeff Hiller: 53:58

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 53:58

I know. Yeah.

Jeff Hiller: 53:59

see, I have very specific genres and I have to force myself to read fiction.

Jason Blitman: 54:03

I can tell. The three books. Well, the three books you just rattled off are all nonfiction.

Jeff Hiller: 54:10

Oh, yeah, you're right. I did what, what's the

Jason Blitman: 54:12

I'm paying attention.

Jeff Hiller: 54:13

I read All fours by Miranda July recently, and I, I love Secret Nunez. I read, I read a lot of Secret Nunez books. I just read the Vulnerables

Jason Blitman: 54:22

Who knew You were such a big reader.

Jeff Hiller: 54:24

Well, yeah. Aren't you?

Jason Blitman: 54:28

The other fun thing about this is I talk to people who people don't necessarily equate with reading.

Jeff Hiller: 54:33

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 54:35

No, but like no one's like, oh, Jeff Hiller is probably a big reader, right? Like that because, do you know what I mean? That's not how they quote unquote know you

Jeff Hiller: 54:43

right, because I just seem like a, a character actor with a

Jason Blitman: 54:45

a cartoon character. Right, right, right. Well, like Jonathan Adler, the designer, huge reader. He was a guest gay reader, and like he's not, you don't like think about him and talking about books. You know what I mean?

Jeff Hiller: 54:57

I guess that's, yeah, right. Yeah.'cause it's like, when does he have time? Is he's always potting.

Jason Blitman: 55:03

He's always potting on that pot man. Um, I am shocked that our paths have not crossed in real life.

Jeff Hiller: 55:13

Well, haven't, why haven't they,

Jason Blitman: 55:16

it's insane to me when I first moved to New York City,

Jeff Hiller: 55:19

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 55:21

well, let me back up. Your book is called

Jeff Hiller: 55:24

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 55:25

you Actress of a certain age, which I all morning. I've been like, where's the emphasis? Is it actress of a certain age? Actress of a certain age, actress of a certain age, right? I was like, what Actress of a certain exact, yes. That one's so creative. I had no, I didn't even think of that one. That's what it is, isn't it? Actress of a certain

Jeff Hiller: 55:52

Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to think what word it is. Actress of a certain age, actress of a certain age. I think it's, I think it's on actress and then, and then the of a certain age is, is you

Jason Blitman: 56:02

Is into the microphone. Got it, got it, got it.

Jeff Hiller: 56:04

Actress of a certain age.

Jason Blitman: 56:06

oh, thank. Yes. So it's a little bit like mumble side mouth

Jeff Hiller: 56:10

Exactly. It's a side

Jason Blitman: 56:11

So it's really actress and then of a certain age is the, is the little line underneath the headline.

Jeff Hiller: 56:16

that's exactly.

Jason Blitman: 56:17

Right. I'm glad this is all making sense. It's all coalescing. Um. When I, I, I ask you about the book title because my understanding is part of why you wrote it is because you've like, had this whole long career and all of a sudden people know who you are

Jeff Hiller: 56:35

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 56:35

because of the fabulous, uh, somebody somewhere on HBO or Max or whatever we're calling it today. this comes out in June, so who knows what it's gonna be called then? Um, we love a rebrand, uh, but when I first moved to New York. I, I sold merchandise at The Lion King on Broadway.

Jeff Hiller: 56:57

Oh wow. When was that? What year?

Jason Blitman: 56:59

Well, hold on.

Jeff Hiller: 57:00

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 57:01

You'll, you'll know, you'll know exactly when it was in a second. Uh, I was an intern at the public theater

Jeff Hiller: 57:09

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 57:09

and I ran the in person lottery for Bloody, bloody Andrew Jackson on Broadway.

Jeff Hiller: 57:17

wow. Why did we not meet?

Jason Blitman: 57:19

I know

Jeff Hiller: 57:20

So you moved in 2010.

Jason Blitman: 57:21

I did.

Jeff Hiller: 57:23

Okay. You ran the in-person lottery.

Jason Blitman: 57:26

in-person lottery. Yes. I drew the names and everything.

Jeff Hiller: 57:31

That was like the only place where people actually bought tickets

Jason Blitman: 57:34

Right.'cause they were$20. Well, and so I was interning at the public and that turned into a full-time job and I was Mandy Hackett's assistant for years.

Jeff Hiller: 57:44

how did we not

Jason Blitman: 57:46

How do we not meet? I was working there during Love's Labor's lost.

Jeff Hiller: 57:50

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 57:51

I. Michael Friedman would sit at my desk all the time.

Jeff Hiller: 57:55

This is crazy.

Jason Blitman: 57:56

I know. Bonkers to me. Well, so then Jeff, I was at your opening night of bright colors, bold patterns.

Jeff Hiller: 58:03

Ah. Oh, well that was a, I no wonder, I don't remember you from that. I, the only thing I remember about that night was, oh God, let it end. Because for people who don't know, it was a solo show. I was replacing Drew Drogie and there were. Like 200 people in a very tiny room, and every single person, like I was the only person to talk to because, because the writer wasn't there. He had left already. The director was Michael Yuri. He wasn't there. So the only person was me and everyone was talking to me, and I was very overwhelmed.

Jason Blitman: 58:37

Did, I didn't even say hello that night. That was so, that was just, you know, overwhelming. Um. One of, she didn't teach me in college, but a co, a professor at my theater program was Jane Brody.

Jeff Hiller: 58:51

Oh, you're kidding.

Jason Blitman: 58:53

No, of course. You just did a show at Enco and my dear, dear high school bestie is Amy Engel, the Associate General Manager there,

Jeff Hiller: 59:03

I'm just, I was just emailing with her.

Jason Blitman: 59:07

and. My husband and I used to live on 42nd and 12th, and you would like sit in the little park outside of our building, like eating a sandwich every once in a while.

Jeff Hiller: 59:19

Oh, that was when the UCB theater was over there.

Jason Blitman: 59:24

So literally your book is, is about why people don't know you yet or why it took people so long and I'm like, Jesus Christ, Jeff Hiller is everywhere.

Jeff Hiller: 59:35

This ubiquitous bitch.

Jason Blitman: 59:37

I know

Jeff Hiller: 59:38

That's what I should have called it.

Jason Blitman: 59:39

yes, this ubiquitous bitch or this ubiquitous bitch,

Jeff Hiller: 59:46

That is, so I, I have like a persona of humiliation that, you know, because I did hang out in that park all the time because I, it was pre pandemic and so the UC me theater was on 42nd and 10th as well, and I would go to that weird. Whatever that deli

Jason Blitman: 1:00:04

Uh huh.

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:05

starts with an S and get like really nasty stuff. Like from the hot food

Jason Blitman: 1:00:10

Uhhuh. I know RIP Hot food bars. Those are a thing of the past

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:16

I mean, it's probably for the best

Jason Blitman: 1:00:18

a hundred percent. But like at the time, I loved a hot food bar

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:22

do I did too. It was always like

Jason Blitman: 1:00:24

because you could get two pieces of sesame chicken,

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:27

Exactly. Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:29

That's a little taste.

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:31

But I would get a little taste of so many things that it would still be like$25.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:35

I know.

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:36

I'd be like, I got two pounds of food,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:39

I know, right? You're both like horrified and oppressed.

Jeff Hiller: 1:00:43

and I would go there and I would read books. And I would, um, kill time and it was, it was always when like the signature theater had something happening in their lobby and I couldn't be in their lobby or it was like, it's a nice day, I'll sit

Jason Blitman: 1:00:57

Yes, that was our building River

Jeff Hiller: 1:01:01

That's so embarrassing.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:02

I know, but I never thought to like, stop and, and, and say Once upon a time I did the lottery at Bloody, bloody Andrew Jackson and I saw the show more than probably anybody else

Jeff Hiller: 1:01:14

That is wild. So you got to see the show too,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:17

a, a bunch. I mean, I.

Jeff Hiller: 1:01:18

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:19

Yes, I would like, I would like get free tickets all the time. So I'd like bring friends and I just like everyone come see the show. No one else is coming.

Jeff Hiller: 1:01:28

For those, for, for those unfamiliar with what we're talking about. That was a, the one Broadway show I was in and it was a sort of a notorious, uh, doozy of a bomb that. Then it had like a huge article in the New York Times about like why it almost killed the public theater.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:46

I know, I know there was like a whole shakedown after it was such a weird time to be at the public. That was like within my first few months there. And I left, uh, when Fun Home was playing at the New Men.

Jeff Hiller: 1:02:00

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:00

was, it was, it was post bloody downtown during the renovation of the downtown space. Revitalization, but also before I left, before Hamilton.

Jeff Hiller: 1:02:12

Right, right, right. Oh, you left right before the, the money came rolling in,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:21

Right.

Jeff Hiller: 1:02:22

but then the pandemic was hard and for all theaters, but I saw Fun home because we had just done Bloody buddy. They, I got free tickets to go see it in previews. And I was like, I, I had, I was familiar with the graphic novel, but I don't read graphic novels. I did of course, read that after I saw the show and, um, and, and I went, and when Ring of Keys started happening, I looked at my husband. I was weeping so hard, I could not control myself. It was shocking. And I just had another moment like that in the theater. Uh, it is, it's not a show that's anything like Fun Home, but I just saw this show called Operation Mince Meet, which is normally like a wild, funny, wacky comedy, musical comedy. But there's this one song that is so beautiful and I was going, I went to see it with Michael Cyril Creighton. Do you know him? He's a character actor. He's, um, only murders in the building. Anyway,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:17

Yes, of

Jeff Hiller: 1:03:18

it, it's helpful to know that we are like these middle aged gay character actors and. This song started happening and it ended and we looked at each other and we both burst into tears. Anyway, I am emotional and I read books. Surprise,

Jason Blitman: 1:03:34

oh my. The things I am learning about you, Jeff Hiller and the things that everyone will learn about you when they read your book, actress of a Certain Age.

Jeff Hiller: 1:03:42

but you haven't read it, you haven't gotten it yet.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:44

they didn't send me a copy of.

Jeff Hiller: 1:03:46

Oh, I'll send you a copy. I have one.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:48

they'll send me one. It's fine.

Jeff Hiller: 1:03:50

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:50

It's fine. Honestly, I like have too many things to talk to you about anyway, so it's

Jeff Hiller: 1:03:53

Well, and also you, I don't wanna get you in trouble with your therapist.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:58

no, honestly, I wanna listen to the audio book.

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:01

I recorded it.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:02

Of course you did.

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:03

It's done. It's good. I mean,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:05

know. I can't wait to listen to it.

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:07

do you want, can I, it's not even a subtle brag, it's like a full blatant brag.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:12

Brag. This is the time.

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:14

they scheduled me from 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM and at two she goes, we're already past our. We're already past our deadline, so just come. Let's just cut it and come back tomorrow. And I did it in two days and they had scheduled me for five. I'm a reader baby.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:31

Did they pay you for five?

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:33

Well, they were just paying me a lump sum.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:34

Oh, okay. Perfect. Even better. Even

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:38

my daily rate.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:39

yes. You were like, this is my off-Broadway training. I am

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:44

It was improv. It was improv.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:46

Seriously, of course. You were ready to go.

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:48

am, I was ready to go. I know how to read aloud. I could be a drag queen, story, time reader, whatever,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:55

Yes. Have you ever thought about doing that

Jeff Hiller: 1:04:58

being a drag queen. Well, you know, I had this autoimmune disorder where all my body hair fell out and I was like, I think God wants me to be a drag queen, including my eyebrows.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:09

sign. Oh my. You don't have to shave.

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:11

I know.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:13

Is this your way of saying This is the beginning?

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:15

Yes, I

Jason Blitman: 1:05:16

the beginning.

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:19

Season 18 here, I.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:21

Spoiler alert,

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:25

I, whenever I watch it, I'm always like, I could do this challenge so easily. And then, then like when it gets to the like makeup, I'm like, oh, I'd be bad at that.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:35

I room.

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:41

Which is like

Jason Blitman: 1:05:42

I go through

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:43

only thing

Jason Blitman: 1:05:44

Right. I know. I'm literally like, I don't know that I'd wanna shave and I don't know. I don't like have the patience to sit in the makeup mirror for three hours, like, no,

Jeff Hiller: 1:05:55

know. And when you see how much like under, under makeup is un under the,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:00

I'm like the purple and the brown. I'm

Jeff Hiller: 1:06:03

when they put the green on or whatever, the

Jason Blitman: 1:06:05

I'm like the, that doesn't even show through like the layers. I'm like, my poor skin.

Jeff Hiller: 1:06:10

I know. Poor

Jason Blitman: 1:06:11

I was on years of Accutane. That would out, it would redo all of the things.

Jeff Hiller: 1:06:16

It's so true.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:17

Okay. All right. Well, I would, I would see the, the bad drag version I,

Jeff Hiller: 1:06:23

I have done a lot of bad drag during the pandemic with Drew Jogi and Justin Sayer. We did all of these like Zoom readings of plays that Justin Sayer would write and I would, I would do, you know, I would always be playing a woman and I would do like my I home drag and it was not good. I just looked like my

Jason Blitman: 1:06:44

Does she have a name

Jeff Hiller: 1:06:46

well, I do have a drag name. Yeah. I want it to be, uh, I wanna be Vanessa. I'm not gonna explain it any further.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:58

I am not asking? I'm not asking. It explains itself. It explains itself. I, I read the, the second line that after the headline, I fully get it. Vanessa, I love, you know, I could see like another drag name being, uh, an amalgamation of like all of the best eighties baby names, right? Like,

Jeff Hiller: 1:07:20

Oh

Jason Blitman: 1:07:21

like Vanessa reminds me of that.

Jeff Hiller: 1:07:23

Yeah. Vanessa Ney, like Tiffany needs to be in there. Brittany. Yeah. I'm into it.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:32

Yes.

Jeff Hiller: 1:07:33

I'm gonna work on it. When I, I was on Kimmy Schmidt and I played, I played a, a character who's named. To.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:44

Yes.

Jeff Hiller: 1:07:45

like it when you make two, two names. Fuck.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:50

Jeff, before we go, because I'm sure you have a million other book podcasts to get to,

Jeff Hiller: 1:07:55

You're the only one today.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:59

you did tell you, you made it very clear that this is not the only book

Jeff Hiller: 1:08:04

Well, it's, first of all, it's just two. But she made me read a book and also she is a friend of mine from a long time ago, who is a librarian in Las Vegas. So I I, she didn't even go through my publicist

Jason Blitman: 1:08:15

what I'm competing with.

Jeff Hiller: 1:08:16

Yeah, exactly. My, I'm just trying to tell

Jason Blitman: 1:08:19

Librarians are very important to us these days.

Jeff Hiller: 1:08:22

oh, she is on the front lines too.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:24

Oh, of course she is. Um, well, the very important question that I'm asking everyone, uh, it is a moment to amplify people that we love. If you were to die tomorrow. Who? Fingers crossed, who would you enlist to delete the search history on your computer?

Jeff Hiller: 1:08:49

Oh, that is deep. Um, I mean, in reality it would just be my husband, but that,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:56

No. You're not allowed to pick your

Jeff Hiller: 1:08:57

Yeah, exactly. Um, it would be really hard for her to get here. But I have a friend who is my, my best, best friend and she never judges anything. It's like, she's like, like, like sometimes, like one time I made us fly to Chicago to audition for Second City and I got the time of the audition wrong and she didn't get mad at me. That's such a good friend. Do you know what I mean? She is the best, best, best. Her name is Katie. She lives in Denver, Colorado.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:33

Shout out, Katie.

Jeff Hiller: 1:09:34

she Shout out Katie. Katie, Brandon, we love you. She's a a a a, me a, what do you call it? A midwife and nurse at Denver Health and Hospitals.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:47

what an eclectic range of friends you have.

Jeff Hiller: 1:09:50

Is it?

Jason Blitman: 1:09:51

You have your

Jeff Hiller: 1:09:52

when, when you read the book, you'll see that I used to work. That's true actually. I do, I do have, oh yeah. The Vegas librarian was just someone who used to do improv and moved back to Vegas. The, the, I used to be a social worker in Denver, Colorado. That's why I have that friend. See, it's weird. You'll see it, you'll read the

Jason Blitman: 1:10:11

I, yeah, no, I'm gonna listen to it. I can't wait.

Jeff Hiller: 1:10:13

yeah. You'll, you'll listen to it. It's good.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:15

Um. I, I love asking people this question because it's, it's been so joyful seeing people like, reflect on how special some of these people are in their lives. Um,

Jeff Hiller: 1:10:26

she is very special.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:28

though hilariously, Jeff Hiller, I trust of a certain age or actress of a certain age or actress of a certain age is out now. Happy pride.

Jeff Hiller: 1:10:40

Yes, happy Pride. June 10th, it came out.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:43

came out on June 10th. Go buy it or listen to it. Jeff recorded the audiobook in two days.

Jeff Hiller: 1:10:51

I, I just really wanted to pat myself on the

Jason Blitman: 1:10:53

Yes, that is a big deal. Reading is hard, but fun

Jeff Hiller: 1:10:58

and fundamental.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:59

and fundamental. Yes. And thank you for being my, being my guest gay reader. You're such a big reader.

Jeff Hiller: 1:11:05

I kind of am. I didn't really think take it in until just now. Thank you for reminding

Jason Blitman: 1:11:09

yes. Um, and go watch somebody somewhere on HBO and find you on all the places and all the things, and consume all your content and go hang out, you know, in all the parks. And maybe you'll see Jeff there too. Who knows what park will pop up

Jeff Hiller: 1:11:24

Do you wanna hear a little story really quickly about, about. Um, how people seeing me one time? Yeah. Well, um, you know, I'm not famous, famous, so like I can walk down the street just fine. It's not like a Lady Gaga situation, do you know what I mean? But like, I've been on a lot of TV shows here and there, so people kind of recognize me, kind of know who I am. And um, one time I was on the train and I got on the train and this is after somebody somewhere, and I saw this guy notice me and I was like. Oh, he noticed me. He like took me in. He clocked me, whatever. That's cool. I sort of flattered by that. He went onto his phone and then the train opened the door again and it pushed me over to be back behind him. And I looked down at his phone and he was Googling actor with a weird looking face. It's in the book, read it.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:29

Oh God, that is incredible. You know, but it's so funny'cause like you, maybe you're not Lady Gaga, but you are recognizable.

Jeff Hiller: 1:12:42

Right. But, but I'm, I'm not famous, you know, so, so people are

Jason Blitman: 1:12:46

Not enough to know your name. Right. But they know. They know you. And that's enough. That's enough.

Jeff Hiller: 1:12:53

Yeah, and apparently my face is unique.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:56

my God, it's so funny. Um, well on that note, so nice to meet you.

Jeff Hiller: 1:13:01

Great to meet you too.

1:13:02

alison, Jeff, thank you both so much for being here. Everyone, I appreciate you as always, and have a wonderful rest of your day. I'll see you next week. Bye.