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Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host Jason Lipman, and on today's episode I have Leila Motley talking to me about her book, the Girls Who Grew Big, and the guest gay reader today is Bookstagram Darling, the one and only Chip Pons, AKA books over Bros. And he talks to me about what he's been reading, but also about his new book, winging It with You. Both of their bios can be found in the show notes. So if you listen, then you haven't missed it. But in case you have, the Gaze Reading Book Club is officially here. I have teamed up with Altoa to bring you a curated queer book for just$1 to start. We're kicking off in July with Disappoint Me by Nicola Dineen. And each month I will be handpicking a book written by an lgbtqia plus author, and their work is gonna hit that literary but approachable sweet spot. I call it, accessibly Literary. you become a part of the community of readers where we can all chat online and talk about the book. And there are a bunch of little, uh, different chat rooms that we could be a part of. So spoilers and no spoilers and all sorts of fun things, and it's gonna be really great. And for every subscription I'll store it donates a book to an LGBTQ plus young person. And with every subscription you get. A crazy discount on Alto's website, so it's such a good deal. The link. Is in the show notes, but also in the Instagram bio. Uh, go check that out again. You could start for a dollar and check it out and see how it goes and see if you like it. And then all the other books are so reasonably priced after that. I can't believe it. I'm very excited. Uh, anyway, If you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends, like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It is such a labor of love. This little gaze reading that we have going on over here and every little bit helps. So whether it's uh, you know, a like on social media or a follow on your podcast platform of choice or even a five star review, it goes so far and helps get. Other listeners over our way. We are at GA's reading on Instagram I think those are mostly all the things. Thank you so much for joining me today and enjoy my conversations with Layla Motley and chip ponds.

Jason Blitman: 3:04

Um, I'm so excited to have you here.

Leila Mottley: 3:08

Yeah. Excited to be here.

Jason Blitman: 3:09

Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Leila Mottley: 3:11

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 3:12

I am this and The cover is gorgeous.

Leila Mottley: 3:15

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 3:16

We are here to talk about the girls who grew big. I Do you use a pop socket?

Leila Mottley: 3:21

No, I don't. I don't have one. Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 3:25

Oh, you have to get one.

Leila Mottley: 3:26

I know. I've heard good

Jason Blitman: 3:27

I'm a big fan. I'm a pop socket user that, that reminded me I need to put my phone on Do not disturb. Oh, I also usually have a notebook next to me. I'm a mess.

Leila Mottley: 3:39

I usually have the book next to me and I don't know where it's,

Jason Blitman: 3:42

That's okay. I forgive you. I love, I'm obsessed with this cover. Was it painted specifically for this or was it

Leila Mottley: 3:48

this cover was a long journey. It, this is the 12th draft, like it was months of back and forth, and actually my wife found this painting.

Jason Blitman: 4:00

my God. I love that.

Leila Mottley: 4:01

I. Yeah. And the artist Ashley, January, she's, she does a lot of art around like black maternal mortality and motherhood. And I saw this, my wife showed me this painting of hers and I was like, it's perfect.

Jason Blitman: 4:14

Did you say black maternal mortality?

Leila Mottley: 4:17

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:18

Wow.

Leila Mottley: 4:19

Yeah she does incredible art. I think she's Chicago based, but she

Jason Blitman: 4:23

Oh,

Leila Mottley: 4:23

galleries all over the world,

Jason Blitman: 4:25

I am obsessed that you're a doula.

Leila Mottley: 4:28

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:30

How on earth did that come to be?

Leila Mottley: 4:32

I don't really know when I like got that in my head that's something I wanted to do. I worked as a infant toddler teacher for a few years in my teens and and I loved it and I loved being with the kids. It's also, I. One of the most exhausting jobs out there. And so when I became a full-time author, I like, I missed the kids and I missed being like surrounded in this world of being really present. Kids make you present, and I think similarly like pregnancy and birth and being in this space of people going through the largest transformation in their lives is. Similarly grounding. And so a year before night crawling came out, I trained and I was certified as a doula. And then yeah, I've been attending births mostly like I've had more time over the past year. When you're a doula, you're on a call. So you have to be Place, which is why like right now I'm on a pause because I can't be on call. But I love it. It is in big contrast to my work as a writer in just like day to day life. Writing is so solitary and and sometimes can feel a little disconnected from the world and present reality, like you're creating a whole other world and it's a based in imagination. And then to ha be able to really ground in my work is about people and I get to be in relationship to all of these different people.

Jason Blitman: 5:59

Yeah. And you're also like bringing a baby into the life.

Leila Mottley: 6:02

yeah. It's the craziest

Jason Blitman: 6:04

in, in both. In both senses,

Leila Mottley: 6:06

yeah they're definitely Uhhuh. Yeah, I know each book is such a process too, and like

Jason Blitman: 6:13

Yeah.

Leila Mottley: 6:14

to pregnancy, like it's a long gestation and then finally like it's just out in the world.

Jason Blitman: 6:20

It's like such a, it's such an intense metaphor that you then live for real. Yeah. Wow, that's so cool. So random. But I'm obsessed and I'm just like imagining you being on call right now and in

Leila Mottley: 6:35

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:35

being like, I gotta go.

Leila Mottley: 6:38

I right now, because I am like, we're about to hit publication and then there's the months post publication. I have a birth I'm on call for in August and they're like, do you need to do this like interview. And I'm like, I might leave in the middle of it, but Okay.

Jason Blitman: 6:54

Now are you're, so you're on call for this birth in August. Do you like form a relationship with the family ahead of time? Yeah. Yeah.

Leila Mottley: 7:04

Typically I do prenatal visits for months ahead of the birth, and so we we have a foundation of trust and I, we know each other well enough that when it's go time, like it's a, we just slide into, okay, this is what we've been rehearsing for.

Jason Blitman: 7:20

so cool. This is not the same in any way, shape, or form, so I am not trying to compare. However, I have officiated a bunch of weddings.

Leila Mottley: 7:30

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:30

And I was working for a company where I would get paired with couples ahead of time. And so I would have a few check-ins with them prior to the wedding. So you have this like little relationship with these strangers and then you get you're part, you're with them for this part. Important, yeah. Yeah. So bizarre.

Leila Mottley: 7:48

relationship because like it is such a huge moment for them. And like I feel connected to them because I get to witness it. And then I see them usually for six weeks or so postpartum, and I check in. Months down the line too. And sometimes people will just send me pictures of their babies six months later.

Jason Blitman: 8:08

That's so cute.

Leila Mottley: 8:09

yeah, it is, but it's so crazy'cause I'm like, I I saw these babies on the day they were born and walked through early Parenthood with their parents and then I don't see them again for many months

Jason Blitman: 8:22

Or ever.

Leila Mottley: 8:23

or ever. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:24

Yeah. Which it makes sense that the book opens with a birth.

Leila Mottley: 8:28

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:29

Yeah. Okay. The girls who grew big, what is your elevator pitch

Leila Mottley: 8:34

Yeah. So it is about three young mothers in Panhandle, Florida. And it follows each of them through early motherhood, through pregnancy, through birth when a new girl Adela arrives in town, she's 16, she's pregnant, and her parents have sent her from. Indiana, her like wealthy upbringing in Indiana down south to live with her grandmother, have her baby, leave her baby there and return home like nothing happened. But when she arrives in town, she's brought into this group of other young mothers who are kinda raising themselves and their kids in the back of a pickup truck.

Jason Blitman: 9:11

Yeah, the Capital G girls. You, earlier in this conversation you said that kids make you present. What does that mean to you? Tell how have children in your life made you present?

Leila Mottley: 9:23

They are experiencing everything for the first time and they force you into experiencing it with them. Like you, you really can't wander off into space. Like they'll bring you back.

Jason Blitman: 9:36

That, yeah. Yeah.

Leila Mottley: 9:37

Yeah. Over and over again. And like when you're at your limit, they like, they push your limit. Past what it once was like they, they require a lot of you and they give a lot to you. I think that being in the presence of kids is like one of the hardest and like most beautiful things that we can do, and they're like. They allow us the ability to either show up or not. And it is hard and and I'm not a parent yet, but watching parents do it and watching them become someone they like, literally did not know they could be. It's incredible. Like kids they'll make you be present because they are and because they need you.

Jason Blitman: 10:20

Yeah. It's funny. I'm also not a parent let's say yet. I. My sister, who's younger than me, has a two and a half year old and an infant, and it's been really fun both watching the two and a half year old grow up and the things that, just the other day she pointed to her toe and she said, I have a booboo literally right here. And I was like, who are you? And also watching my sister become. A mother, like it's such a specific transformation. Yeah. But it's been really fun to watch. Who are your girls? Capital G Girls.

Leila Mottley: 11:01

In my own life, I have a lot of, I'm surrounded by a lot of mothers. And yeah, and like they all parent differently and exist differently. It's, I think it's like such a, it's awing to witness different people, parent and and the many ways. There are to mother. I think in the girls, we get to see a wide array of people who are all kinda in a similar stage of life, but who are figuring it out differently. And contending with the idea that like whatever they do is like never gonna satisfy everyone. And that's a lot of what. I think motherhood is like having to come to terms with the fact that there is so much judgment and so much scrutiny over any and every choice that mothers make. And at a certain point, like you have to just stand in your own choices. And that, that can be hard, but I think it also in a lot of ways makes people a new version of themselves. If so many people say they. They cannot recognize who they are after they give birth. And it's a death of self and a rebirth and and you have to stand your ground and protect your kids and protect this new version of yourself and your life.

Jason Blitman: 12:19

Yeah, it, it's interesting'cause you just said new version of yourself. When we were talking about mothers giving birth and then becoming that version of themself. I think, in our lives in general, we go through these. Stages and phases and become different versions of ourselves, but also, people are coming in and out of our lives. I think there are like seasons for friendship sometimes, there's the time and the place. And the book got me thinking so much about just sort of friendship in

Leila Mottley: 12:50

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 12:51

Do you remember your first real friend?

Leila Mottley: 12:54

Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend when I was two, and then I had kinda the same, I. Best friend during elementary school,

Jason Blitman: 13:04

Yeah,

Leila Mottley: 13:05

yeah. But friendships are, they're so interesting because a lot of the time when you're younger, like it is circumstantial, right?

Jason Blitman: 13:12

a hundred percent.

Leila Mottley: 13:13

Based on where we are and what is like convenient, and we have all of these times. That are like set up to talk to our friends and exist with our friends. We have all of these shared experiences, but then in adulthood, like that's not what it is. And friendship is so much harder to find and maintain when you don't share all of the like, daily experiences with someone.

Jason Blitman: 13:35

Yeah, absolutely. I am in my, let's say, mid to late thirties right now and getting older. It's so hard to make friends. Because of cir like circumstances, right? Like I'm not in school, I'm not, in positions where I'm connecting with new people. So funnily enough, this is a way

Leila Mottley: 13:54

yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 13:56

find yeah, and find common ground with people and connect. Through, in reading the book, but also as you were talking about the circumstances of your first friends, I was thinking about who are mine? And I was like, quickly running through my Rolodex and I was like, okay, this person, when I was in like Mommy and me classes with my mom, who was like my best friend, was one. A kid in Cub Scouts when I was in elementary school, there were two or three people that I was good friends with throughout elementary school, and then that early chunk of time, all of those people that I could think of that I was closest with are gay now.

Leila Mottley: 14:31

That's so funny.

Jason Blitman: 14:32

I was like, oh, we were clearly drawn to each other subconsciously in some capacity. Yeah. That's really interesting.

Leila Mottley: 14:41

That is fascinating. I went to an art school in middle school and high school, so pretty much everyone was gay, so it wasn't like, the anomaly was being straight. And all of, most of my friends from high school are queer. And then now, like in adulthood, I have way more straight friends than I ever have,

Jason Blitman: 14:59

Oh, that's so interesting. You. I'm sure you're like tired of talking about your age and I'm, I am. There's context in which I'm curious to talk about it later but now you're, I don't wanna say significantly, but you we're, you're younger than I am and so hearing your experience, it's so different from mine. What was that like for you being so young, being surrounded by young, queer people? I.

Leila Mottley: 15:28

I think it's also like context is like I grew up in the bay where queerness is just kind of part of the culture. It wasn't, there wasn't as much of coming out wasn't really a thing. Like I think most of us did it on a low. Low level scale, but it wasn't when I came out to my family, it wasn't like a, oh, they're gonna I wasn't concerned about the response. And honestly, I probably didn't even have to do it. But I think that living in that and growing up in, in that culture meant that just wasn't as primary of an identity for me. Which I think meeting other queer people who like grew up in different contexts. Sometimes queerness is like a more primary identity. And for me, like sometimes I'll forget until I I'm elsewhere and like me and my wife will be. We'll be like walking down the street in Georgia and then we'll be like, all right, we gotta remember. And that changes it a little bit. So I think, yeah, I think it's like a, also based in like generations and having the internet be such a a stronghold through my childhood. I think it was like Instagram was the primary one when I was a kid that I was.

Jason Blitman: 16:44

That's so crazy to me.

Leila Mottley: 16:46

But like Instagram was there the whole time. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:50

Yeah.

Leila Mottley: 16:50

So I think that also probably has an influence on it.

Jason Blitman: 16:54

For sure. You talk about growing up in the Bay. I grew up in Florida, south Florida. Let me be very clear. And similarly, I was surrounded by not queer people in the same way that I think the Bay Area is. There, there is queer culture in Florida. There's a lot of arts, there's a lot of just culture in general. And I also grew up Jewish and in a community that was also quite Jewish. So similar to what you're describing, like it was never like a quote unquote

Leila Mottley: 17:21

Great.

Jason Blitman: 17:22

It just was like the life we were living. But hilariously in the book there's someone says in Florida, you go north to get south. I had never heard that before and I was like, oh, that's so true. And I am shocked. I'd never heard that.

Leila Mottley: 17:35

That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up hearing that I don't know why.

Jason Blitman: 17:41

That's funny. I also imagine, again, the story takes place in the panhandle, so I'm sure that like people above a certain spot in Florida, that's a very common thing.

Leila Mottley: 17:51

And I think in the south in general,

Jason Blitman: 17:53

sure.

Leila Mottley: 17:54

'cause Florida is the South but doesn't belong to the south in the same way as like Alabama, Georgia. Yeah. But Northern Florida does

Jason Blitman: 18:04

And you like get, nor like Orlando and South is like a whole different place,

Leila Mottley: 18:09

Yeah. It's.

Jason Blitman: 18:09

which is so weird. And also something that comes up in the book that I did learn growing up is that you were supposed to apparently run zigzag from an al an alligator when you're running away from them. But that according to the book does not sound true.

Leila Mottley: 18:23

I did so much research about alligators. Yeah, it's a really common thing that you're told you're supposed to run zigzag, but like alligators have eyes on each side of their head so it wouldn't make sense to run zigzag.'cause that's the only time you're actually going in and out of their view. If you ran straight from them, you'd, they wouldn't see you.

Jason Blitman: 18:43

I know. I don't

Leila Mottley: 18:44

It's really fascinating.

Jason Blitman: 18:45

fascinating. Why was I told that?

Leila Mottley: 18:47

I don't know. There are so many things like that.

Jason Blitman: 18:50

I know. Being the premise of this book is about. Young mothers. In Florida. While I was reading the book, I got a text from a good friend of mine who's a teacher in Florida, and she was telling me that they just implemented a new sex ed curriculum. Pushing abstinence until marriage. The importance of heterosexual marriage unit, the unchangeable nature of the sex binary. And I was just like, it is just so bonkers to me that while I'm reading this book, that's what's literally getting pushed.

Leila Mottley: 19:26

it's true. Yeah. And Florida policy is they're quick with it. They keep going. So over the duration of writing this book, the laws around abortion changed like four times, I think in the course of four years. And it was a struggle to keep up with what was supposed to be a contemporary novel.

Jason Blitman: 19:48

Like literally it gets published and immediately it's historical fiction.

Leila Mottley: 19:52

Yeah, exactly. And part of the conversation we had to have after the last ban, which was a six week abortion ban and six weeks, it's so early. Most people don't know they're pregnant at six weeks. At that point, I was like, there's no way the, like that the plot falls apart, it collapses with this. So I ended up moving it to be set in 2023 which would be the abortion ban at, I believe 15 weeks or 11 weeks for a medication abortion, maybe 12 to 15 for. A DNC. So that ended up being the way that it went, but it changed so many times. It went 15 weeks, 11 weeks, six weeks. And and keeping up with it was impossible because once Roe v Wade was overturned, then all they like started enacting these policies really quickly. And then it had to go to the Florida Supreme Court and then it passed through and then they changed it again. And, up with the conservative politics in this current moment was impossible for this book, but it also relies on like the idea of it being incredibly difficult to access abortion, but not impossible.

Jason Blitman: 21:09

Yeah. Absolutely. And it's so fascinating, you saying that just puts it into such a different perspective for me because it is not uncommon for laws or I don't know, all sorts of things to not matter to someone until it matters to them.

Leila Mottley: 21:26

Completely. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 21:27

And I imagine, and I don't wanna make any generalizations, but I imagine that, a person in Florida only cares about an abortion law at a very specific moment in time. And so the fact that you were tracking it over the course of years of writing a novel and we're able to see it changing constantly. Whereas someone who literally lives in Florida who might not have any sense of how often it's changing until they quote unquote, need to know.

Leila Mottley: 21:59

Yeah. And we're being like overwhelmed with policy changes, and it makes it impossible to keep up with everything. And so you pick and choose what's important to you, and then one day you realize that you like missed something.

Jason Blitman: 22:12

Right. Absolutely. Right at this point for me, I'm just like, am I allowed to still be married to my husband? Okay, cool.

Leila Mottley: 22:17

It's so confusing. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:19

Let's keep moving on and whatever. Yeah. Family is created by confession is a little concept that pops up in the book. What does that mean to you?

Leila Mottley: 22:32

I think particularly in the context of shame, which is a lot of what these girls are contending with, and the idea that you're like not supposed to say or speak of things that are taboo, that are illicit ends up meaning for them that when they decide to disclose anything to each other, it creates like a sanctity if that information is like preserved and kept sacred in the relationship. And so these girls create a family together just by way of being able to exist fully and completely as themselves. And I think one interesting thing about like young pregnancy is that it's open. There's no hiding it. And so in a lot of the ways that like as teenagers, especially teenagers maybe with more strict parents or coming from conservative communities like. You have to hide the things you're doing as a teenager. Everyone knows it's happening. And

Jason Blitman: 23:34

hold this jacket in front of you.

Leila Mottley: 23:35

right? Exactly. But then at a certain point when you have pregnancy as part of that, there is no hiding. And so the shame becomes. Outward and open, and it lives and breathes in these children. And these girls are forced to be excommunicated from their community because of that because they can't hide it, and that is what is being asked of them. And so by, being able to go to each other and create this little community in themselves that, that ends up. The family in which they're raising their children they're allowed to say or do whatever they need to. And it becomes like a release.

Jason Blitman: 24:17

Yeah, yes. And it had me thinking about like friendship in general and what friendship means. And for me, I think a recurring theme in friendships is trust. And similarly, it's okay if trust and quote unquote confession and be able to live in that shame with people is what sort of emerges into fam is what like takes a friendship into

Leila Mottley: 24:42

Yeah. And in some ways, like a rejection of that shame by experiencing it with others.

Jason Blitman: 24:48

Yeah. Yeah. For someone to say, no, I'm not gonna feel shame here. And so therefore they're like taking away your shame too.

Leila Mottley: 24:56

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:57

Yeah. It's such a powerful experience. The book is about becoming And. That sort of like evolution of who you are, right? Like earlier in this conversation, talking about what it means to become a mother from, one day you're not, and the next day you are. What is, what has Layla's journey been from pre-night crawling to this, to, what has your journey been like? What has your process been like as a person, as a writer? How have you become.

Leila Mottley: 25:30

Yeah, so much has changed for me since night crawling and even I think about it in. These other sections because I wrote night crawling. I started when I was 16. I finished it when I was 17, and then I, the book didn't come out until I was 19, turning 20. So the, like rapid amount of change between 16, 17 and 1920 meant that by the time the book was coming out, like I, I had become a different person and then was like representing a book that I wrote. From a very different part of my life. And now like I am another four years from that. And and it's been interesting to I. I feel like a more of an adult now. I'm kind of, at 19 and 20, like I, I was still in the middle ground and and now like I, I feel like I stand more fully in my adult life and and have separated a little more from the person who not only wrote that book, but put that book out and I think it's really interesting and a unique experience to have my 16, 17-year-old, like brain memorialized forever. And it's taken a lot of like processing for me to be okay with that.'cause it's like having your like diary published and available in a bookstore and, and so I like, have had to cope with the the detachment from that and also the respect of my, like younger self and the work that she created and the meaning that it serves while also being able to go and I'm in an entirely different place in my life and I don't wanna create anything like that again.

Jason Blitman: 27:16

Yeah, that's that's part of it, right? Just like the moving on and into a next phase as a person, as an artist, as a creator I. And for all, you're going to put it on the page and then that's gonna be it for 20 years, and it has the co-sign of Oprah. There's this, there's stakes and pressure there,

Leila Mottley: 27:35

completely. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:35

So it's interesting, I was saying, I was curious to talk to you about your age and the context of the book because so much of the book is about the. Sort of naivete of youth, and I think we, there is this ignorance as bliss component and in, in a good way, in a, oh God, I wish I still had that to feel more comfortable, to feel like I was unflappable and everything was okay. And I feel like when I was a young person. I thought I had become

Leila Mottley: 28:11

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 28:12

well, and so I find it so interesting. Like again, I said, I'm sure you're tired of talking about your age, but for me, I think so much of my hindsight came as I got so much older and as such a young person, the book is so insightful with things that I think only come, not only obviously, but I think very clearly come with. Age. Where do you think that comes from for you? Because you're not older, right? But you are able to tap into something and I want to put a little asterisk because I think some people say like, well, you're a woman. How could you write from a man's perspective? And I don't mean it like that. Like you can obviously write an older character, no problem. But there are nuances to reflecting on a young person. That's, I think that's what I'm talking

Leila Mottley: 29:04

Yeah, part of, why I wrote this book now was because I do believe that the older I get, the harder it is for me to accurately depict the brain of a 16-year-old. And and there is like this hindsight's 2020 like way that we can reflect the older we get that changes our ability to like. Fully and completely empathize with the experience of teenagers. And so part of why I did this was'cause I like know I can't do it in 10 years. And and in, in this book, like I, I knew that I needed to have multiple young mothers. One, because I think it's important that we see teen parents as not monolithic and. It varied in their experiences, but also because I think it was important to have an older character, Simone, who has 4-year-old twins and she is pregnant. Again in the start of the book. And so we see like her reflections as she's like now 21 and has distance that the others don't have. And experience parenting which will age you that the others don't have. And her experience, I think helps us put into context the other girls' experiences, particularly with Adella. Because we're also talking about men preying on young girls. And and that was important to me'cause there a large. Population of teen parents get pregnant by someone who is four to six years older than them or more. And that is when you think about a 14-year-old and a 20-year-old, that's a large age difference. But when you're 14 it doesn't feel like it because you don't know what it's like to be 20 and so it was important to me that like we get to fully experience the head of Adela who's 16 and like just can't know. What she doesn't know. And that's what being a teenager is like. You don't know what you don't know. And there's something really beautiful about that because you're like falling head first. But also something dangerous about it. And and then seeing Simone on the other side, she's reflecting on. I had kids by someone far older than me, and how do I cope with the fact that person is always going to be in my life because they're my children's parent? And also, how do I cope with the fact that that is the story I'm giving my children. And that is a story I have to tell my children and that isn't necessarily something I'd want for my children.

Jason Blitman: 32:26

And I think back to the whole shame piece, that's an such an important reason to strip the shame away.

Leila Mottley: 32:33

completely. Completely. And so I think it was important to me that we get to experience the large difference between a 21-year-old and a 16-year-old. And I. How one of while both of them are in early parenthood and are young and are trying to like navigate getting to be like young women and also having to be parents at the same time. They're also coming at it from two very different perspectives just by way of what time gives us and

Jason Blitman: 33:05

So in a way, you are the Simone to these characters in your

Leila Mottley: 33:08

in some way, yeah. I. I had more distance when I wrote night crawling. I was in it and there wasn't any distance. And like even just the fact of the first person present versus first person past, like there is some way that even I naturally and subconsciously will write into. I. The perspective I can have at the time. And getting to go back into this world of teenage girls was was important to me to do because I do I don't have that much distance from it. I do remember it pretty clearly. And I like know people who are still closer to that. And I also wanted at the same time to balance it with the perspective of hindsight is 2020 and we need to understand the other side of it in order to like really respect what it means to be 16 and also go there are things that you're gonna learn just through time and experience that are important. I.

Jason Blitman: 34:09

Sure. Yeah. And I don't, I, what was I saying? I don't want to come across as though me being like, you're so young. How could you write this? But, and I don't want to take away the. The crazy experiences that you have had as a young person that can age you, right? Like the experience of being in conversation with freaking Oprah about your first book like that is not something that you just leave that experience and you're like a normal 20-year-old, right? Anyway. I don't want, I don't wanna feel like me. I'm saying, how could you write this? You're so young. No. Like you've been on a journey and I think that's really cool to it be reflected in the story.

Leila Mottley: 34:49

Contextually, like I wasn't probably like a typical 14-year-old either. Um, And like a, my life forced me to. Age earlier than I otherwise would have. And I like, I think that has brought some perspective, but I also I try to remind myself like there are still things that I, ways my brain works that are based in like the physiological reality of like brain development and, and so it, there are like ways that yeah, I function. More like I'm 23 and then there are ways that I function more like I'm 40 and sometimes they're like in conflict with each other, but I think they like help me write books that can be both complex and also about young people.

Jason Blitman: 35:41

sure. It's interesting and I'm, I am curious to talk to my therapist about this. Why I am, I don't wanna say I'm stuck on this. I'm very happy to move on, but why? It's something that was very on, very much on my mind, and I think some of it is because I was the precocious 24-year-old. I was the person who was 24, 25, 26, and people thought I was in my early thirties. And so I on one hand when I got older was like, oh, this is now what it's like. And also I was sad for the younger version of myself who couldn't just be a young person and who needed, needed to like live in this world of. Having been older anyway, that's, I think that's why I'm looping on it. The, there's so much about feeling known and feeling seen and belonging in the book. And I wrote the question, what does it mean to belong? And then I was thinking, what does it feel like to belong? Because I almost think that there are two different answers there. I'm curious what you think about that.

Leila Mottley: 36:50

Yeah, I think for the girls in this book, belonging is like being able to be at the crossroads of being a teenager and also a mother, and not having to completely sacrifice either of those experiences. And so a lot of their, a lot of their time together is spent doing things. Teenagers do. They dance and they drink and they hang out and they do each other's hair and it's it's very quintessentially young of them. But at the same time they're like, they're mothering and they're helping each other parent and they're like teaching each other how to latch their babies and they're like cooking dinner together. So I think for a lot of. Like the girls in this book, being able to belong is being exactly where you're at and exactly who you are at any moment. And knowing that this this group of young women is going to completely accept you in that, or they're gonna tell you that they're mad at you or they're unafraid to be angry with each other and to fight. And and I think that is like part of. Closeness and connection and like true intimate relationships, you have to be able to be in conflict with those people. And so we see them exist in conflict like any teenagers would and any family would. And I think that is part of their closeness and of the way that they belong to each other is trusting each other with conflict without kind of, I think the fear of complete abandonment.

Jason Blitman: 38:31

Yeah, so I'm almost hearing, or what I think I'm hearing is what it means to belong is getting to that crossroads and being at the crossroads with others and then feeling like you belong is getting to experience those things and living in those conflicts and having. And having that freedom of dancing, of drinking, of whatever and like being a part of that community. Yeah. You at one point, and really only one point in the book, you use the word coven to describe them. I'm curious where that comes from for you and or why that word in particular,

Leila Mottley: 39:07

Yeah, there were a couple different words that came up, coven gang cult, like there are a lot of ways you could describe. This group of girls,

Jason Blitman: 39:17

Huh.

Leila Mottley: 39:18

unusual and I think in a lot of ways that like a coven functions these girls are, they're a group doing some kind of like witchcraft in, in their kind of opposition to what is standard, what is normal, what is accepted. I think that there is an inherent rebellion in it. And then I also think similarly to a gang, we see like them be feared and seen as like this violent group. And also like gangs are where people go for belonging. Like where they go for family when they don't have any. And that is like what they are and how they relate to each other.

Jason Blitman: 40:05

Is, has that ever been your experience?

Leila Mottley: 40:08

I don't have, I've never been part of large groups of friends. It's not the way that I relate to people. I'm, I fear large groups, and so I, I have like more intimate. Close friendships that are like either one or two people at a time. And I compartmentalize them into different areas of my life.

Jason Blitman: 40:32

Yeah, no, I understand. How did you meet your wife

Leila Mottley: 40:35

we met in college. We met, we lived in the same house dorm and so we met our first day. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:45

you, you didn't start dating on your first day, did you?

Leila Mottley: 40:48

Two, three weeks in, like

Jason Blitman: 40:49

Oh my God,

Leila Mottley: 40:51

Yeah. So and then it's been like five and a half years. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:57

that's so cute. I love that.

Leila Mottley: 41:00

yeah. She's the best. She's great.

Jason Blitman: 41:02

I met someone early on in college and dated them for two years and that was the end of that. So I like, understand

Leila Mottley: 41:08

Neither of us could have said that we were gonna stay together outside of college.

Jason Blitman: 41:13

no, but five and a half years, that is nothing to

Leila Mottley: 41:50

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 41:51

turn your nose up at. That's amazing. Good for you. The world is gonna send you some treasures when you need it the most. Do you believe that?

Leila Mottley: 42:01

Yes. But I don't, I think sometimes we expect to be able to like, pray our way into something different. I find that usually the treasure, the thing you need is not the thing that you're hoping or praying for. And then sometimes it's harder to recognize when it comes.

Jason Blitman: 42:25

Interesting that, that's what I ask you after you tell me you met your wife the first day of school, right?

Leila Mottley: 42:32

And like the what I always tell people is my wife and I, like she was not the right person for me and I was not the right person for her when we met. Like it was, we were not ready for each other. And like it was miraculous that we got there. And it took. Like solid six months to a year to meet each other.

Jason Blitman: 42:52

Yeah.

Leila Mottley: 42:53

and I like, I don't even think I really knew who she was until six months in, and she'd probably say the same.

Jason Blitman: 43:01

That's really cool. One of the best pieces of advice that my husband and I got when we were getting married is that you are not gonna be the same person that you were when you got married. And so it's important to evolve together and be on that journey with each other and respect that of each other. And so it sounds like that was part of what you were navigating.

Leila Mottley: 43:25

like when we met, I was 17 and so we like, it's been a long time and we've been

Jason Blitman: 43:33

And just finished your first novel?

Leila Mottley: 43:35

Yeah, exactly. I was editing it when we met.

Jason Blitman: 43:38

Yeah. Oh wow.

Leila Mottley: 43:40

And so she's walked through all of this with me and like she's gone through so many different changes too. We have been many people together and I'm sure we'll be many more.

Jason Blitman: 43:51

I know it happens. I think a lot about like fate and karma and destiny when reading the book, I.

Leila Mottley: 43:57

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:58

What do those things mean to you?

Leila Mottley: 44:00

I'm a believer that. You do get swayed towards where you're supposed to go. And there have been times in my life where I fight it and I fight and always like things go wrong. And

Jason Blitman: 44:12

is there something that comes to mind that was like a recent thing of that I.

Leila Mottley: 44:17

I mean there's so many ways that I do this, but I think in writing, I do this a lot actually. Um, I'm someone who writes. Pretty quickly. So I I wrote six books between night crawling and the girls, and I just kept it was like banging my head into the wall and even after I bruised, I just kept going. And for me, sometimes like I have to. I'll fight and fight and like persist to a fault when sometimes like you just have to let things go. And and in that process, like when I actually started writing the girls, I had told myself like, I'm just gonna have fun. I'm going to have a good time. I'm gonna write whatever I want and I don't have to show it to anyone.

Jason Blitman: 45:08

Yeah.

Leila Mottley: 45:09

And the minute I like released myself, I did have fun and like it was a different writing experience and finally like it was able to click and I think sometimes I. I like, I have built up, I have such a history of fighting for things and like pushing really hard and I think that's a lot of how I got here. But at the end of the day, like usually the thing that makes, it work is not something that I am doing. I do a lot of work to get there and then like at some point you like let go and you release, and that is usually when like the good things happen.

Jason Blitman: 45:48

Yeah. I love that. You are about to do a lot of these, so this question is like unfair,

Leila Mottley: 45:55

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 45:56

but do you miss them?

Leila Mottley: 45:59

I usually don't experience that. And I think part of it is because through the revision process, I like, I'm really active and in it, and then that very last and I'm changing things to the end. But then that very last read, I try to read it as a reader as much as I possibly can. And I think it helps me like close and go, okay, I'm like. They were gonna be left here.

Jason Blitman: 46:28

Yeah

Leila Mottley: 46:28

sometimes I miss, like the kids,

Jason Blitman: 46:32

Uhhuh.

Leila Mottley: 46:33

Sometimes I think I miss getting to experience the like beachy fun part of it.

Jason Blitman: 46:40

Sure.

Leila Mottley: 46:41

Because it's just like a different setting than any of my other books. So it's like a, it was a fun experience for me to write and like very contrasted to night crawling, which is a pretty like heavy book through a lot of it. And even like in the Bright Moments, there's an overlay of darkness in it. And this book, like for me, was a really bright experience and I got to have fun. So I think it, there are ways that like I miss how easy it was in a lot of ways. Having three first person perspectives was like a really fun challenge for me, and I'm not doing that right now. So getting to switch between them and like always have something new every day was an experience that I miss sometimes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 47:31

Yeah. I think because it's like such a strong character study as a reader, every time I would come back to the book, I would think, oh, I miss them. I'm glad I get to check in on

Leila Mottley: 47:43

Completely.

Jason Blitman: 47:44

So I wasn't sure if you felt that same way as the author, but you've spent a lot of time with them, so it's fair that they can

Leila Mottley: 47:50

I feel that way. If I like miss a writing day when I'm, when I was drafting it, then I would feel that way and

Jason Blitman: 47:55

Oh, sure. That's fair.

Leila Mottley: 47:57

Yeah. If I'm like in it and now like I've moved on to the next thing, so I miss those characters right now, then I'm not writing.

Jason Blitman: 48:06

yeah. Oh, I love that. This is so fun. It's June right now. Happy pride. Everyone go check out the girls who grew big by Layla Motley. Thank you for being here. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Leila Mottley: 48:22

Thank you so.

Harper!: 48:24

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 48:27

So what's happening? How was your day? Or you're like

Chip Pons: 48:30

It's in the end of a long day. It's been a bit chaotic, but everyone's been posting their like, pride hopefuls, and so my phone was like blowing up today, which is like overwhelming, but very exciting.

Jason Blitman: 48:42

Blowing up because people are posting your

Chip Pons: 48:45

they are. I feel very like excited and honored that I get to take part in the pride stacks this year.'cause it's been a minute since I had a book out.

Jason Blitman: 48:55

The pride stacks. At first I thought you said the pride, sex, and I was like, maybe both.

Chip Pons: 49:01

Yeah. I am a romance author after all.

Jason Blitman: 49:05

Before we dive in or take

Chip Pons: 49:08

Ooh.

Jason Blitman: 49:09

To talk about your book, chip Pons, I have to know as my guest gay reader today, what are you reading?

Chip Pons: 49:15

Oh my gosh, what am I reading? Truthfully, I'm not reading anything at the moment. I am like, I, as of I. Friday, I just got like nine, a nine page edit letter for my next book. So I'm like deep. I'm reading my own upcoming book at the moment.

Jason Blitman: 49:36

You are not the first guest gay reader reading your own book.

Chip Pons: 49:40

I have a lot of books that I'm excited about, but currently, like I'm very selfishly in my own reading

Jason Blitman: 49:46

Great. How do you feel about reading the next book whilst getting in the head space for the

Chip Pons: 49:53

Yeah, it's very interesting because I've been working on Wingy with you since 22. So to like finally be able to close that chapter, like I've been mentally done with it for a long time. And so getting into the head space for something that's a complete pivot, like I'm entering my like paranormal small town era for this next one. And that's been fun. Like I, I feel like I have all the happy feelings and the excitement for winging it with you. And then also all of the like, excitement and happy feelings for the next one, which is like rare. But there's a lot of anxiety and stress and sleepless nights over it as well. But it's all good.

Jason Blitman: 50:35

And I feel like this is not, I'm not a journalist and this is not like a profile, but let's say it. was because I feel like you, you're a very public in quotation marks, Bookstagram figure. But I would also argue. A little elusive. How do you balance this, like working full-time whilst being a writer?

Chip Pons: 51:00

I was like, I feel like I'm ver I'm a yapper and I just tell everyone everything all the time. So I was like, that's interesting that you think that no

Jason Blitman: 51:07

I think that you are a yapper about.

Chip Pons: 51:10

book

Jason Blitman: 51:10

The same things.

Chip Pons: 51:12

Okay. I

Jason Blitman: 51:12

And I don't mean to say you're repetitive, I just mean like you. have a brand right? Yeah. Yeah.

Chip Pons: 51:18

I, feel like I'm very like, transparent about the things that like. I love talking about I've tried really hard to keep, so I, I am a full, I have a full-time job. I've had a federal career. I was in the Air Force as a photojournalist for almost eight years, and then I've transitioned that into a federal career. And so I try to keep those lives very separate because it's it's just very different, I try to keep my. Work politics out of my personal politics and vice versa. So like my professional life it's very it's very rare if anyone knows that I've got stuff going on in the book world. Like it's I've done my hardest to keep that a secret.

Jason Blitman: 52:04

Really? How

Chip Pons: 52:06

Just, we don't need to go down a whole federal rabbit hole, but there are ethical things where it's second employment and like making sure I'm not using, company time to do any of my book stuff. And so I never want to blur lines. And so I like, I take that very seriously because I love it's weird. This is the first time. Re probably the last couple months where I've felt like I have two careers. Like for the longest it's felt like a, an established career and like a hobby or like a thing that I'm trying to dabble in. And now it's nope, I definitely have two full careers that I'm trying to dedicate 24 7 on my life to. Which has been so fun on top of being married and having some semblance of a social life and not eating everything in sight. Like it's just been, it's just been wonderful.

Jason Blitman: 52:58

How do you balance it

Chip Pons: 53:00

I don't do it well. I'm very thankful that I. Like an incredibly supportive husband who one like encourages me to chase every wild dream that I have, but two who like, we're in the same career field and so we like not only personally relate, but we professionally relate to one another. So it's like he helps me keep everything into perspective.

Jason Blitman: 53:25

Yeah. Hooray for

Chip Pons: 53:27

Yay. Marriage.

Jason Blitman: 53:29

Happy

Chip Pons: 53:29

Thanks.

Jason Blitman: 53:29

to all of our supportive partners out there. You two things thing one, I want to just publicly acknowledge we are recording. Post work Eastern Time for you. This is very much not on company time.

Chip Pons: 53:43

It's very not. No.

Jason Blitman: 53:46

but also you said something that I found so interesting about keeping your professional life separate as though you are not calling yourself a professional

Chip Pons: 53:55

I know. I know that it's been a,

Jason Blitman: 53:59

face you just made was, I know I'm on a journey. Jason, leave me alone.

Chip Pons: 54:03

so like even, like on Instagram, how like people can have titles, right? Like I don't remember when I was just a book Instagramer. I like, I feel. This is a whole journey of identity, right? Like I feel like I have one foot firmly planted in both worlds and I feel icky calling myself a bookstore grammar now, or like a book influencer. And I still feel uncomfortable calling myself an author, even though like I've self-published one book. I'm about to have one traditionally published out this year, and then I've got. Two more planned for the next two years. But I remember how nervous I was to change it from, I, I think it was influencer, maybe to writer. And that felt more natural because like technically I was a photojournalist and I was a writer in the military. So that felt real. And then it wasn't until I think it was like. than a year ago, I changed it to author, and that's been like a fun mind game. But I have to slap myself on the wrist every time I go to talk or like to diminish this chapter of my life because it's no longer a hobby and it's no longer something that I'm trying to do. Like I've done it and I'm continuing to do it and so I'm trying to be better.

Jason Blitman: 55:22

Yeah, listen, I find all of that so interesting for me personally and selfishly,'cause I'm going through a version of the same thing. I never really called myself a books to grammar. So I am that I don't, I'm not so worried about. But this podcast sort of started. I. In a hobby space, and I can't really call it a hobby anymore. So I totally understand. And to top it all off, like being in pride, being in June to, just to unpack the concept of identity. In so many different forms.

Chip Pons: 55:56

It's definitely, and like I never wanted to seem like I'm not proud of this identity or this, part of me. It's just been a lot to like swallow and like to pivot to because I, I think there's some sort of imposter syndrome lingering in those insecurities, right? And do I belong in, where do I belong? Do I belong with the books grammars because I am no longer really reviewing other people's books and promoting other things beyond my friends. And but am I sitting at the cool kids' table yet? Like when will I personally feel like I'm there? So we'll see.

Jason Blitman: 56:33

You mentioned earlier that there are a handful of books that you're looking forward to reading. Are there any off the top of your head

Chip Pons: 56:38

Oh my gosh. Yes. Wait. You. Sorry. Oh, see me at the fi See me at the finish line by Zach Hammett. I am so excited to read this. I just got this in the mail yesterday. It is a like at, it's like a university rowing romance. I think it's enemies to lovers and the cover is so cute. I'm just so excited. I have heard nothing but great things and so this is like next on my reading list.

Jason Blitman: 57:09

I love that it's a book about rowers, and of course they have bare

Chip Pons: 57:13

Oh yeah, absolutely. And there's some armpit showing too. It's like wonderful.

Jason Blitman: 57:18

Okay. Tell me, tell the people about winging it with you. Do you have an elevator pitch? You must, you've been talking about it for so

Chip Pons: 57:25

I know I've literally been talking it. So winging with you is I'm like winging with you is my fake dating rom-com set on reality television show, like the Amazing Race Meets Fear Factor meets, all the other adventure based reality TV shows. Where Poor Asher is begrudgingly going about this, journey he gets, the airport gets tragically dumped by his loser of a partner. Of seven years at the airport ticket line and starts drowning his sorrows in mimosas and mozzarella sticks at the airport, TGI Fridays. Where he then convinces randomly the deliciously sexy Theo Fernandez, an airline pilot to be his travel and competition partner and fake boyfriend. And they travel around the world and they fake it for the cameras, and they have to figure out what is real between them when the cameras stop rolling. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 58:21

How did your love of this genre come to be?

Chip Pons: 58:24

Romance, romance.

Jason Blitman: 58:26

Yeah.

Chip Pons: 58:27

I feel like I just chase that feel good feeling of like people falling in love. I think from a young age I realized that was very important and like people finding their person was like this beautiful thing in life. I don't know. I don't know why. I've just always loved love and I just have always loved people like reaching for someone's hand as they're facing life. And I just remember, being so smitten with love stories and romcoms growing up, and especially as I, got older and it wasn't until. Maybe my like late teens, early twenties, where I was like, Nope, this is the genre that takes the cake. There's nothing else that compares to it. I love thrillers, I love mysteries and like being on the edge of my seat, but there is truly nothing more important in my life than like family and love and romance and yeah, it's just, yeah, I'm a romantic.

Jason Blitman: 59:32

rom-coms that inspired you when you were

Chip Pons: 59:34

I don't remember when it came out, but I think like my, like top tier romcom is how to lose a guy in 10 days. That's my, I know. It's, I.

Jason Blitman: 59:44

I, No, I love it. Don't.

Chip Pons: 59:46

I watch that with like hard eyes. There's just something so undeniable about their chemistry and the banter and the way that I'll never forget Kate Hudson leaning out the window and she's oh, I'm gonna make him miserable, or whatever the line is where she just is about to wreck this man and it's so good.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:04

Kathryn Han does not get enough recognition for her role in that

Chip Pons: 1:00:07

Katherine Hahn is a visual and like personality embodiment of one of the characters and winging it with you. I like totally modeled her after Katherine Hanh, like there's a side character Jen who just lapped off the page for me and when I pictured her I only could picture Katherine Han.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:25

As an as a rom-com aficionado. This is your, first traditionally published book, how was or what was the decision behind like these tropes as the first one outta the gate? Does that make sense? That is such an

Chip Pons: 1:00:44

yes. No, it's it take makes total sense. I, so my first book you and I rewritten is heavy and like trauma dumpy, and it was like clearly I needed to work through something as I was writing that. And so when I was thinking about what comes next, I was like, I need something light. I need something like that's. At the heart of romcom, like I want fun, fluff cheese, like all those things I use like with affection. And so I knew I wanted to do a fake dating romance and I was like, okay, how could I torture? The crap out of two men who are pretending to be boyfriends, and this is like such a random chip lore, but my husband and I for the past, like almost 12 years, have fallen asleep to American dad. I. Every single night that's

Jason Blitman: 1:01:40

is so

Chip Pons: 1:01:41

so random. I had never seen it before we got together. Like I was never like allowed to watch those like adult cartoons. And so like for some reason that's become our comfort show and we put it on every single night and fall asleep to it. And there's an episode where the family like goes on. An amazing race Ask show, and I was percolating ideas and that episode randomly started playing and I was like, how hilarious would it be if I forced two strangers to go on a reality show, like the Amazing Race where they're forced together like 24 7 in hotel rooms and taxis and boats and planes like. Like really forcing them to get comfortable very fast. And like the idea just spraying from there. I was like, oh, I'm gonna make them miserable and so uncomfortable and so awkward and I just felt like that was the perfect storm for tension and like chemistry and conflict and drama. So that's where it came from.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:47

Yeah, so fun. Now, where did American dad

Chip Pons: 1:02:51

Literally that's my, that's all. My husband he grew up on those shows and he was like, I'm going to introduce you to some high class television. And it was America Dad, so

Jason Blitman: 1:03:03

Did you fall asleep to TV prior to that?

Chip Pons: 1:03:07

No yeah, like this was a huge I would read before bed or maybe watch like TI don't, it was very rare. It wasn't like an every night thing. And now it's cool get outta the shower, turn on American dads at the timer for 30 minutes and have enough time to watch the first seven minutes of an episode and fall asleep to the shenanigans.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:27

Wow, that's

Chip Pons: 1:03:28

Yeah. It's

Jason Blitman: 1:03:29

We love a routine

Chip Pons: 1:03:31

for sure.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:32

You wanted the book to have all sorts of things and you also said, cheese, mozzarella,

Chip Pons: 1:03:38

mozzarella. Mecu baby.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:41

Yes. I know it's not really a joke anymore because it would've been funny about eight

Chip Pons: 1:03:46

but it's still funny. So I like the callback.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:50

I wanted to say mozzarella cheese in that moment, but I didn't wanna interrupt you.

Chip Pons: 1:03:54

I love mozzarella

Jason Blitman: 1:03:56

I, yeah, I could tell. Are you a TGI Fridays fan Just so happens to be a thing that you would find at an

Chip Pons: 1:04:05

Yeah, literally every time I've traveled there's always an airport, TGI Fridays or like an airport, Wolfgang Pucks. Like those are the random things that I feel like I always clock every time I go there. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:20

I was just talking to a couple authors about chilies in

Chip Pons: 1:04:23

Yes. I love Mia Chili's.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:25

Yeah. Is are mozzarella sticks your go-to order of an appetizer?

Chip Pons: 1:04:30

No if I was single and by myself, yes. My husband doesn't eat a lot of fried stuff, so like I don't, like I indulge when it's like the two of us are gonna indulge. But when it's just me, like I don't wanna eat mozzarella sticks by myself, that's lame.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:47

Sure.

Chip Pons: 1:04:47

But I think nachos would be my go-to order,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:50

Oh,

Chip Pons: 1:04:51

but that just didn't have the same ring to it for a me cute,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:55

yeah, no. When I would go to TGI Fridays as a kid, I would do the potato

Chip Pons: 1:05:00

Oh yes, and remember you, I think you can still get those in the freezer section.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:06

I'm sure you can. And I did growing up. I don't want to. I don't, I can't. No. No judgment to anyone who does. And if they wanted to sponsor gay's reading, then I would happily support

Chip Pons: 1:05:17

I know. Come on, TJ Fridays.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:19

Chip Ponds, thank you so much for being my guest gay reader today. Everyone could get winging it with you out now, wherever you get your books and fall in love with them on their amazing journey.

Chip Pons: 1:05:30

Thank you so much for having me.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:31

And Happy Pride.

Chip Pons: 1:05:33

Happy Pride.

1:05:34

Layla Chip, thank you so much for being here today, everyone. I am always grateful for your time and for being here listening to GA's reading. I will see you later this week with another special episode, and have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks. Bye.