0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what and why. Anyone can listen Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from stars to book club picks we're the curious minds can get their picks. Say you're not gay. Well that's okay there something everyone. Hello, and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. On today's episode, I am joined by Reuben Reyes, Jr. Author of Archive of Unknown Universes. I got to sit down with Reuben in person earlier this year to talk about his story collection. There is a Rio Grande in Heaven, and you could find that full conversation over on the Gaze reading Substack. The guest gay reader today is the wonderful Chloe Michelle Hower, author of Sunburn, which is also out now. Both of their bios are in the show notes. And both of these books offer exactly what many of us are searching for right now. An escape, a mirror, a place to process, or just a place to rest. Uh, these weeks y'all, they just keep on coming. Um. I don't know. In times like this, I find myself turning to books and it's been hard to focus, but it has also been a bit of a refuge, and I have been doing my darnedest to find that balance between those things. And I hope that is true for you to, uh, you know, it's sort of a way to make sense of the chaos, a chance to feel seen, a way to connect with our fellow book lovers. So I hope you're taking care of yourselves and. You know, I don't know. What are you doing to take care of yourself? Uh, put comment on a gaze reading post and let us know, because I think everyone could use some advice of how we're coping right now. Anyway, I hope you had a good 4th of July weekend. I posted some thoughts about. What independence means to me over on the Gays reading Substack, if you wanna check that out, that post is free over there. And you know, I've said it before, but reading Queer Stories is one of the most powerful acts of resistance and restoration that we have. And you know. To support queer authors is even better. And so just a another little reminder, another nudge that the Book Club partnership with altoa starts this month and every month we'll be spotlighting an LGBTQIA plus author. And they earn a significantly higher percentage of profits than through other platforms. So I'm so, so, so excited, uh, to be partnering with Stora on that. This month's pick, of course, is disappoint me by Nicola Dine, and in case you are unfamiliar, when you sign up, you also get access to a membership to altoa, which means wholesale book prices about 30% off all of their website. You get to join the group chats online, and also Altor donates a children's book to an lgbtqia plus youth. So all really great and important things. You could find all of that information in the show notes. And the link to sign up is on the Instagram link tree. We're at Gaze reading on Instagram, and if you like what you hear, please follow the podcast, leave a review, share it with a friend. It really helps more than you know. All of that said, please enjoy my conversations with Reuben Reyes, Jr. And Chloe, Michelle, Howarth,

Jason Blitman: 3:46

My allergies are going insane today. I feel the pressure in my eyes. I feel it in my throat.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 3:52

I'm with you.

Jason Blitman: 3:53

happening?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 3:54

I'm right with you, so we'll, we'll cough through this.

Jason Blitman: 3:57

I know. We're like on a journey this morning. well Officially welcome to his reading. There's a substack live recording of us, but this is, this is the real deal.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:07

Yeah. I'm so excited to be here and to be chatting with you again. We had such a good time in Palm Springs. I feel like

Jason Blitman: 4:12

we

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:13

a great conversation.

Jason Blitman: 4:14

It was um, I know. It was so fun. And, uh, And you did your first live in person. Read reading. Read reading, reading. Yeah. From

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:25

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:26

this book.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:27

Yep, Yep. Exactly. Yeah, I

Jason Blitman: 4:30

a journey.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:31

yeah. It's like time moves so quickly and so slowly all at once. Um,

Jason Blitman: 4:36

Like part of what this book is about.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:37

yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:39

Reuben, what is your elevator pitch for archive of unknown universes?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 4:47

Uh, So this is my debut novel and it basically follows two families over alternate timelines of the Salvador and Civil War, which for listeners was a 12 year conflict um, that was US funded. And so the book is a lot about the impacts of that. Um, And it really hinges on the life or death of a gorilla soldier who was involved in the revolutionary movement. Um, In one timeline, he lives in one timeline, he dies. It's also a love story, a breakup story, speculative fiction, historical fiction. Um, I think you read this and see how messy my brain is.

Jason Blitman: 5:25

Yes I, I was like taking notes for myself along the way. In the back of the book, I was like, okay, this person is connected to this person and this person loves this person, and this person is married to that person. And which universe am I in?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 5:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. I think that's also why it is like my first novel, like when I was thinking about this book, I think I've shifted a little bit, but when I was writing this, I was in grad school and I was like all like big brained about it, right? I was like. Like most stories can be a short story.'Cause I read a lot of long novels that I was like, you could have cut 200 pages from this or whatever. And so I was like, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna write like a novel for the sake of writing a novel if the story doesn't require it. And then I had this idea and I was like, okay, wait. There's a lot going on here. There's no way I can do this in a short story. I think I'm gonna try writing a novel, and that's like the conversation I had with myself before starting.

Jason Blitman: 6:18

And to be honest, and to the listener, it is not a 600 page book. Like it's still, it is still a tight novel, but it's, but it packs a punch. It makes me think about, my background is in theater and so thinking about the difference between a 10 minute play that like a student might do versus a one act play with no intermission versus a two act a, a two and a half hour play versus a three and a half hour play. Right? And this, I think, is that solid, like 90 minutes, no intermission tells the full story, but it doesn't overstay. Its welcome.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 6:55

Yeah. Those are the like books and media, like this is my thing with movies. Let's go back to the 90 minute movie. Like, I think Jurassic Park is probably like 93 minutes or something. It is the perfect length and like we've we've lost sight of it a little bit. And with novels I think, I don't get me wrong. Like I love a, if it's good, I love an 800 page novel.

Jason Blitman: 7:19

100%.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 7:20

But it's like a hard sell, I think for many ways. And I honestly have read many that needed to be shorter. And so I think I wanted to be like, this needs to be punchy and the right length and, develop the characters and do, and the relationships and do all that. But yeah I wanted, I was really cognizant of making sure it was as punchy and like I wanted every scene and every sentence to be essential

Jason Blitman: 7:45

You have to really think about what you're writing under those circumstances. Yeah and something like. A 90 minute movie or any any movie for that matter. If a musical happens to be longer, or a play happens to be longer than 90 ish minutes, there will be an intermission, right? So you do have a pause or a break, but with a movie, it's like you need to earn those three hours so that person will sit there and hold their pee and be thirsty, like being uncomfortable.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 8:17

Yeah. I went to watch Killers of the Flower Moon when it came out, and I loved that movie actually. I thought it was actually like justified the whatever, three hours, whatever length it was. But I was wearing some shoes that were a little too tight. I. And an hour and a half in, I was like, I gotta pop these. This is gross, but I gotta pop these boots off right now. I gotta let, I gotta let my shoe, my feet breathe.

Jason Blitman: 8:41

That's so funny. So you're writing a book where people will keep their shoes on.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 8:46

Yes. Yes, definitely.

Jason Blitman: 8:49

I like don't know how to, it's a weird topic to talk about just because of the nature of all of this, but El Salvador is in the news a lot right now,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 8:57

It sure is. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:58

And I like, don't, there isn't a question. I think it's more like, how does that feel for that to be. As prescient as it is, as important of an element of your book, and it's it's weird.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 9:18

It is super weird. It feels super weird. I grew up in SoCal, right? Which is a huge, there's a huge Salvador population in SoCal, like all of my dad's families out there now. And there are like historical and political reasons for all that, right? The kind of migration to, to SoCal. But it's also like a very Mexican city like. Mexicans are the largest population. And I think growing up, I thought to explain to some classmates like, what, like where El Salvador was, what El Salvador was.'cause they would assume that I was Mexican, which is actually an experience that a lot of El Salvadorians have written about and talked about. And I think part of it's'cause people just didn't know, right? It's a pretty small country, like its history isn't taught here in any, there are some people doing it, but no systemic way. And I think like in. When we think of Latinos in the us, like Mexicans tend to be the dominant the story that people know about for understandable reasons. And so now the fact that like El Salvador is front and center and people are like, oh wait, they like, they know the name of the president, right? When have they known the name of the Salvador and president? Never even those that are like politically engaged people didn't. And so it's really weird and it's, i'm grappling with that personally. But I think the benefit right, is that this novel is an attempt to talk a little bit about Salvador in history and the way it's tied to our contemporary moment, right? And to the lives of Americans whose parents were born in El Salvador. The book is so much about the aftermath of a civil conflict of war and of US intervention abroad. And like the breaking news is also about that, right? And I don't know. I hope that like for some readers, like this is a good entry. It's obviously a novel, right? So there's only so much history, like it's more of a setting and context. But I think people will learn something about El Salvador. I think that will help them hopefully understand the current moment a little better.

Jason Blitman: 11:08

sure, just in general for it to be one background in a book, right? Like one setting in a book, in a novel right now, like that is not, you're not seeing that regularly. So for it to be right now feels very. anyway, I just, obviously that was top of mind.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 11:26

Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking a lot about it too. I don't know that kind of thing I think too, where you write about the specific which leads to the universal. So I was writing specifically about El Salvador and the kind of repression that people experienced there in the late seventies, early eighties. But there are like resonances now because, it's not El Salvador that's gone through things like this. And yeah, I don't know. It's that thing, that weird thing about fiction where the more specific you get, the more weirdly universal it is or the more people can see themselves in it. It's like such a weird paradox, but I think that's part of what's going on here too.

Jason Blitman: 11:56

Yeah, no, it's totally weird. And just thinking about. There's a quote in the book that says, behind every cliche is a glimmer of truth. And that's not exactly what you just said, but there is that element of to be so specific, it's so universal because cliches are cliches for a reason.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 12:16

Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 12:20

It's so funny because I don't mean this question. Offensively because, and I'll have an answer myself, but like, how do you find that to be true for you? How are you a cliche?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 12:29

Oh my God, I'm like so many in so many ways. I think about one really specific thing, and this is about this book but also about my first book. I think my story collections a lot about this. I think a lot about the American dream as a cliche, right? Or like an existing narrative that kind of flattens some things and. I am like, so the American dream, like I should be so pro-American Dream. It's crazy because both of my parents, immigrated to the US at different times, right? Neither of them got college degrees here in the States. They were still able to make a life for themselves, buy a home. And so cow like raised me and my siblings get us to a good public school, and then I, went to Harvard and then the Iowa Writers Workshop and then. I work in like corporate publishing in New York, like it is so far from where my parents came and in many ways it's that's the American dream, right? And yeah, but what is like not There or what? If you only see that kind of version of my life or only those details within my life, you don't see the things that made that possible. My parents' citizenship, my dad's very good like job at the L-A-U-S-D school district. And all these factors that a lot of immigrants don't have. And so I don't know if that totally answers your question, but I

Jason Blitman: 13:46

it, it does well and what's so interesting, and I don't even know if you realize you said this, but I asked the question and you said there's one really specific thing and that is a springboard of literally what you said a few minutes ago of the more specific you get, the more universal it gets. So you have that specific thing. And it's interesting, for me. I guess not so much anymore, but at a time, I just loved musical theater and that is, it couldn't be more cliche or I couldn't be more more of a cliche gay man saying that, and it's they're cliches are real for a reason.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 15:00

yeah. There's something about Yeah totally. It's like that glimmer of truth. And I think the important thing is that you see beyond it, right? Like that, it's I think the danger is where that cliche becomes the only story. That's when you're in trouble, right? Because it just flattened things and. Let's bad actors get away with stuff. Which is also what this novel is about.

Jason Blitman: 15:21

speaking of musical theater, they're one of the most obscure references in the book. Shocked me,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 15:29

Uhhuh.

Jason Blitman: 15:29

mean girls. The musical really, of all the things.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 15:33

yeah. That it, that's so funny. I I'm trying to remember. There was another, it was another reference initially. And what I wanted was these two characters to bond over, like knowing what's going on Broadway. Um, And I wanna say that I wanted to reference the Color Purple Revival. I. Which was around this time, but the timing was off. Like I think the color purple had come back to Broadway the year before. And so time-wise, I was like, oh, that's not total. I could have done it, but I was like, it's not totally right. And so I think I looked up probably the list of shows that came on in the time period that the novel's happening and I was

Jason Blitman: 16:08

Uhhuh,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 16:09

mean girls, it is. Yeah, but there's a lot of pop culture references in

Jason Blitman: 16:14

are a lot of pop culture references. Wait, no, you're not getting away from me Girls and musical yet.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 16:19

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 16:20

so you had to, you looked it up. Are you not a musical theater person?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 16:23

I am a mus. I am a musical theater person, but I dip in and out. So like I haven't gone to a, one of the things I love about New York is being able to like, get lottery tickets to go to shows on a whim. It's amazing. But I haven't in the last year, gone to that many shows. I've, nope, I'm busy. And it's like even with a like lottery ticket, it's 50 bucks at least. And

Jason Blitman: 16:42

back in my day they were 20 and$25 and$30. Like it was

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 16:48

yeah, I know. What a dream. But yeah and so I, I don't know that in 2018 I was really keeping tabs on, I think if I heard about Mean Girls the musical I was hearing about, the stunt casting of Cameron Dallas or whatever because people were upset about it. But yeah, this, I don't know, there's lots of, I did a lot of really serious historical research, but I also had to do some more contemporary pop culture research too when writing this.

Jason Blitman: 17:12

Yes. Everyone is obsessed with Renee Rap now, and I saw her in Mean Girls the musical that was.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 17:18

That's the say what you want about the musical. Like that is one of the great contributions to society. I'm obsessed with her and that's, that was huge for her that helped make her

Jason Blitman: 17:27

Yes. Big fan of hers. She's awesome. And a member of the lgbtq plus community, we need to, I need to get her on the show.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 17:34

she's everywhere right now. She must have an album coming out or something. I've, she's nonstop all over my feeds. But obsessed.

Jason Blitman: 17:42

Speaking of pop culture or pop girlies, Where did your love of Alanis Mossack come from?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 17:50

Oh my God. It was I'd say late in life I feel like I, and I have, honestly, I have this relation, I think it's maybe I. Being the children of immigrants. There's something about that. Not entirely the explanation, but it's part of it. Where I've had to learn about some iconic American or North American artists like later, like as an adult, because my parents had introduce me to them. So like Alana Morisset, like obviously I knew. Ironic and some of the other songs, obviously you hear those. But I didn't sit down and listen to that full jagged little pill album till, I don't know, probably. I dunno, at some point in adulthood. And I was like, oh my God, this is good. This is amazing. And so that's, yeah, that's where that started. I also, I don't think I wrote about her in this book, but I've been thinking a lot about the last two years I've really got into Joni Mitchell who's just amazing. And I'm like, how messed up is it that I had to go so many years not knowing how amazing she was.

Jason Blitman: 18:53

Okay. That was me and Barbara Streisand.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 18:56

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 18:57

I was like, not she, obviously I knew who she was and she was on my radar and I knew some of her music. But when I was in college I was like offered a free ticket to see her in concert and I was like, why not? I guess so. I'll go and Ruben, my life has changed.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 19:14

I bet.

Jason Blitman: 19:15

Yeah.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 19:16

Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's, maybe this is why I like writing about pop culture so much. Like even if it's just references it means us so much about us, right? Like it says so much about where we come from. It says so much about who influences us, especially when we're younger. Yeah, I don't know. I'm really interested in. As something to take, not too seriously, but like seriously. Seriously enough to write about it a little bit in my very serious novel about the Salvador and Civil War. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:45

Do you want to share a little bit about how and why she's in the book?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 19:50

Alanis Morissette. Yes. So another kind of central part of the book is this device called the defactor, which allows people to view alternate versions of their life. Basically like small movies, short films of lives they could have lived as certain things had gone differently. But there's like a AI ish chatbot that guides you through that process. And.

Jason Blitman: 20:12

Just putting it lightly.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 20:13

Yeah, AI ish chatbot, that, that guides you through it. And you're assigned like a voice that chatbot takes on. And for one of the characters, it is at the beginning of the book, especially Lanis Morissette. And I think Avil Levine is one later on, and it's super silly and absurd on purpose. But yeah,

Jason Blitman: 20:31

Who would yours be?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 20:33

oh my gosh, I don't know, talk about cliches. I love Lady Gaga so much obsessed. So maybe Gaga would help me

Jason Blitman: 20:41

You'd want her to guide you through your alternate universes.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 20:46

definitely. She can do, no, she can't do anything wrong and I love her. I love her so much.

Jason Blitman: 20:53

I love her too. Musical theater, girly at heart.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 20:55

Yeah, exactly. There's that, this quote she had years ago that was like when I started. It's so funny. Of course, it's like self mythologizing whatever. But I was like, this, you're so real for that. When she was like like when I was starting off in this industry, people said you're too pop for musical theater and two theater for pop, and look what I did. And I'm like, yeah, you're so right.

Jason Blitman: 21:15

Yeah, there's something to be said about I don't, I wouldn't say she created a genre'cause there, of course, were people like Madonna

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 21:21

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 21:21

her but to find your, find that core of who you are and just live your truth,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 21:28

totally. Also I don't know, there's something to be said about people that put effort, and I hope this doesn't sound shady to some of the other pop girlies, but like people who put effort into a performance, it's like worthwhile and creative and interesting.

Jason Blitman: 21:40

The, I, there's definitely, there's room for all of the facets. I think for the whole spectrum. I think you have the pop princesses who just know how to put on a show.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 21:53

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 21:54

You have a Barbara Streisand like basically sat on a stool and sang, and I would've sat there for six hours.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 22:02

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 22:02

And then there's the in-between, which of course is the Lady Gagas of the world. And you're like, wow. You can, you have the it factor and you can put on a show.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 22:10

Yeah, totally.

Jason Blitman: 22:12

So we need it all.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 22:13

We need it all.

Jason Blitman: 22:14

Meanwhile, Britney Spears, she's she just knows how to put on a show,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 22:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 22:19

which is, that's fine. I would watch, I'd watch that too.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 22:23

she's been through so much that I'll let her get away with whatever.

Jason Blitman: 22:27

So what do you think about seeing these alternate or unknown universes? Would you want to

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 22:37

I think so, and I don't wanna give away'cause the characters really reflect on this question on is it helpful or not? And that's kind of part of the book, so I don't wanna maybe give too much away. But I think personally the reason I wrote about it's'cause I find the question of what if super, super compelling And I always have, and I think it has to do with a couple things. I think that it's a question that immigrants ask themselves a lot. I think. Especially when things get hard, in your new home. I think there's sometimes the thought of there was a reason I left right. Either, maybe there wasn't enough money, there wasn't enough opportunity. I was being persecuted by a government or someone in my community. There's lots of people's reasons why people leave their homes. And I think when you come to the states and then you face a different set of hardships. And it's not what has maybe been promised or told to you that it will be? I think you might ask yourself like, was it worth it? Was it worth it to me? Leave my home? What if I'd stayed? And so I think that question is really interesting on that level, which is why I'm really interested. I think again, maybe this is random movie reference. I loved past lives, like I loved past lives. And I think it's because it honors the way that immigrants approach this question. So that's part of it. And then the other part of it is that I left like home, like I left California for Boston and then Iowa and now the East Coast. And so I've always thought what if I just stayed in California, a place I love closer to family? And I think we all have versions of that question for ourselves,

Jason Blitman: 24:05

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting too because you, in the book you're seeing. Specifically alternate universes. You are not seeing the future And there's, for all intents and purposes, there's nothing you could do about it,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 24:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:26

right? So that's I think, where I struggle with that question, right? Excuse me, like we won't give away anything from the book, but for me, I couldn't help but think, I don't know if I would want. To see anything because I it's easier to have regrets or it's easier to think, oh, what if I could have done, if I did that, this is where I would've been. Or if the opposite is true too, you can go, oh, thank God I didn't make that choice,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 24:52

yeah, that sounds like a very healthy approach to it. I think the curiosity is

Jason Blitman: 24:57

Oh, no, I'm curious as hell. And if it was, if that was a reality, then I'm sure it'd be different.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 25:03

yeah. Yeah. No, I think I think it's just something human about that question. I think, like almost everyone I've met in my life ask themselves a version of that question.

Jason Blitman: 25:12

And you saying past lives is so interesting too because if I had the opportunity to see or experience my past lives that I might be able to, in turn, have a better understanding of who I am today.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 25:28

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 25:31

'Cause it's like the collection leading up to now.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 25:34

There's like context before you burst onto the scene.

Jason Blitman: 25:38

Totally. Versus, the alternate universe thing like really was breaking my brain.'cause I was like, this is happening right now in a parallel universe that you Tap into.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 25:47

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 25:48

And that gave me anxiety.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 25:50

Yeah. It's all. I don't know. It's like this novel is like about the characters and the relationships and the love stories. But it's also like a big thought experiment. I don't know, I like novels that approach big questions and big ideas and that's totally why I'm drawn to sci-fi.'cause sci-fi does that often. And also this particular question of alternate universes or, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:14

Did you? was like a thing going around Instagram. I literally think yesterday. That was talking about our universe and how there wasn't a big bang, but it was like something else and it was like we're living inside of a bounce or we're living inside of a black hole.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 26:34

Oh God, that's stressing me out. Talk about anxiety.

Jason Blitman: 26:37

I know. So this came out literally yesterday and I was like, how weird that I'm talking about the universe tomorrow. Yeah, I don't know where that is, but.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 26:49

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:50

People, could everyone go Google it?'cause it's interesting

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 26:53

And also if people are like, curious about it, it's like very much a like sci-fi kind of staple. Like I think there's I think about there, there are lots of people who've done it better, but I, I. I like Michael Kreon a lot. I've already mentioned Jurassic Park. And he has this novel, it's not his best, but it's fascinating called Timeline that is a little bit about this basically on how, like the relationship between like multiverse theory and like time travel basically. And so it's I don't know it, it's not like I am particularly scientific or interested in this question. I just really like sci-fi and it's a question that sci-fi writers have returned to over time.

Jason Blitman: 27:31

totally. And it's also it's right, the book is called. Archive of unknown universes. So it, while it is a big part of the book, the book is really about family and relationships and, connection and what we know about ourselves. And speaking of relationships, there's a quote, existence was a task best done in a pair is something someone believed. Do you believe that?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 28:00

I think so. I have believed it at a point to I'm in, I'm telling myself that I'm in a very healthy place right now with my. With my singledom.

Jason Blitman: 28:10

We love Singledom.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 28:11

yeah, I think I'm in a good place with it right now, but I think there have been points in my life where I was like, oh my God, it's so hard to be a person. Like this would be so much better if I had someone by my side who totally got me and supported me. And I think like the best relationships are that right. It's like this feeling that you're going through life as a unit. And so yeah, I think there's some truth to it. I don't know that it's like. I'm like, that's the only way to do it. But I, there have been, I think there have been times in my life where I felt like that was the only truth or the best way of doing life.

Jason Blitman: 28:43

I am obsessed with this because. My heart and soul in my, maybe in my next life slash my next career move. I wanna be a matchmaker.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 28:55

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 28:58

What are we looking for? Who's your

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 29:02

for me,

Jason Blitman: 29:03

to put you on the spot. Yes. All of a sudden, I wanna be your matchmaker Reuben.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 29:06

Okay. But I also love I'm such a romantic that I'm like, but I don't want a matchmaker. I wanna be at the local bookstore and they walk in and they ask me what I'm reading.

Jason Blitman: 29:17

Listen, I can manufacture it. You don't need to know. I'll be your little fairy godmother,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 29:21

Yes. I don't know. I just, I want someone who's funny. I very much appreciate humor. They have to be, unfortunately, as smarter as me or smarter. I love when someone's smarter than me, or at least I think they're smarter than me.

Jason Blitman: 29:36

To Harvard. That's gonna be hard.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 29:37

I know it's fine.

Jason Blitman: 29:39

So smart.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 29:39

I have aspirations. I don't know. But yeah, I think there's something, I guess this is like more woo and abstract, but I think I like the idea that like, like a really, and I probably write something I was reflecting, in my first book, I really didn't write about romantic relationships very much. And so I wanted to do that'cause I love reading about love and romance. And I think somewhere in the book I write about how I do think a relationship is just choosing someone over and over. I would like to find the person where that's like an easy or as easy a possible thing to do.

Jason Blitman: 30:09

Yeah. Yes. Listen, as a person who's been in a relationship for over 10 years, it is not that is not always easy, but it is definitely easy to want to make it easy, if that

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 30:20

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:22

This is something that comes up in the very first letter of the book and is a question I've asked you before, and I'm asking you again to see how things have, might be changed or shifted.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 30:38

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 30:39

believe people are made for each other?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 30:42

No. I don't actually, I don't it's too close to the idea of soulmates for me, which I think is really, and I don't know, maybe it's just scary to I, the idea of a soulmate. But I think that there are, here's, this is my grand theory on this is that there are whatever, 8 billion people in the world, right? I don't believe that there's one person for you. But I think that there are probably a handful of people who are equally good matches. And I think that, like you, I don't know what the number is, but the probability is that it's not one. And yeah,

Jason Blitman: 31:14

So not to burst, not to put a hole in your argument, but I wonder if you're actually saying you do agree with that because saying that people are made for each other doesn't mean that they're the only person made for each other. But you're saying that there are perhaps a handful of people that are your like correct mate. So does that mean that people are made for each other?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 31:38

Yeah, that's true. I think, I guess the reason I'm like allergic to you of someone's made for you, I think it like lets, it lets people off the hook a little bit, right? It like makes love seem like this predestined and like this book is so much about fate and destiny, right? And I think when it comes to love that idea I think makes it feel like, okay, i'll have to find that person. And once I find them, everything will be perfect. When I think we both know that like relationships are actually about a lot of work and like making like incompatibilities work, right? Or like finding the person who wants to work towards the same things as you. It's like very, it's much more proactive than the idea of soulmates, I think make but maybe I'm being really narrow about the

Jason Blitman: 32:18

Again, like I, I wonder if you don't, if you're not with someone who's also willing to put the work in.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 32:27

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:27

Then they're not quote unquote

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 32:29

for you.

Jason Blitman: 32:30

made for you,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 32:31

Yeah, that's true.

Jason Blitman: 32:32

So I'm just saying, I'm just saying, I'm just trying,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 32:34

I hear it. I hear it. I hear it. This is like the tension at the center of my, I think, romantic life is that I am, I love. I love so much. I'm such a romantic. But I'm also incredibly like practical as a person and at times cynical. And so like those two parts of my it's like head and heart. They're like back, they're always back and forth.

Jason Blitman: 32:56

Smart for your heart, man.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 32:58

I gotta let go. I gotta let go. I don't think I'd be able to write novels though if my brain wasn't working like this.

Jason Blitman: 33:04

I know. That's fair. That's totally fair. I love too, and I, will sprinkle some fairy dust your way and you won't know it's coming.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 33:12

yes. Thank you. This is what I need. I need everyone doing their part to help me out here.

Jason Blitman: 33:18

Okay. The made for each other thing. What do you, how do you feel about like astrology?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 33:22

I feel I probably mentioned astrology at least once.'cause I was thinking about astrology in when thinking about this like technology, right? This idea that you have this technology, it doesn't really change anything about your life, but what do we get out of it? I feel the same thing about astrology. Like I think I'm pretty skep, I'm a Capricorn, so maybe it makes sense that I'm pretty skeptical of it. But I think it shows our need for guidance and I do think that tangibly it offers a lot of people that it offers people a way of making sense of the world. And so while I'm a skeptic, that's why I'm not gonna like. Judge someone for being into it, or, I can, I'll tell someone I'm skeptical, but like I'll hear'em out.

Jason Blitman: 33:59

But you also just said, I'm skeptical because,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 34:03

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:06

did you say Capricorn? What'd you say? You were.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 34:08

Yeah. That's why I'm skeptical.

Jason Blitman: 34:10

I'm skeptical because I'm a Capricorn. Like that, that So you're saying you do believe in it?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 34:18

I'm saying that I I situationally allow myself to either pretend I'm really into it or I'm like, maybe maybe what do I know? The one thing I will say astrologically that I do, I've been really convinced of is Saturn return. I have heard so many people talk about their Saturn return and talk to me about it. And I'm like, and then, I think I've just maybe just started mine. And I'm like, yeah, like things are a little chaotic and crazy. Like maybe there's something to this.

Jason Blitman: 34:47

Isn't Saturn return when you're like 27? Are you only 27?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 34:50

I am 28. I'm 28. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:53

kill me.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 34:56

but yeah, I also think, but then okay, bring in my big brain. That doesn't let me just let go. And my big brain's like. Just being 27, 28 sucks. That's what it is. It's not Saturn's place in the universe. It's the fact that being 28 is hard.

Jason Blitman: 35:12

it's a hard time in life, but I don't know. Is there a perfect time? I don't know. I don't think there is. You were talking about the technology. There's something about. False promises. And I think especially right now, the world that we're living in with AI and everyone turning to chat GPT for answers and for guidance and for help. And what do you make of that? Or as a young person, how do you feel about, how do you feel about it?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 35:44

I'm super technology skeptical as a person in general, and I think if you read my work, the stories, this is about technology and our relationship to it. The short stories I published last year also. A lot about technology and our relationship to it and in general, I'm

Jason Blitman: 36:00

The short stories I published last year. You mean your book? There is a Rio Grande in

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 36:04

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:05

Was nominated for awards and like really famous and popular. That little book of stories.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 36:10

that little book of stories that maybe people have heard of, hopefully. I, yeah, I think I'm skeptical because I think that people wanna treat, and this is how I feel about AI specifically, they wanna treat technology as this kind of silver bullet solve all for our problems. And I don't know that technology alone can do that, can fix anything because there has to be like the human will to like also address, to use the technology in a positive and ethical way. And also sometimes with ai, I'm like, do I need to be using AI right now? Every co like literally every company you can think of is talking about how they're using ai and I'm like. I don't think door like DoorDash is working fine. I don't think I need like DoorDash to be telling me how they're using ai. And so I, I'm not like totally against it, but I am pretty skeptical and I'm worried about how people, I'm basically worried about people over promising on what it can do. And I was thinking a lot about that. When I was writing the book, that was actually, so I started writing this book in 2019. And I feel obviously we knew about ai, but the conversation was really different. It wasn't everywhere. The way it's become in the last, like two years-ish. Yeah. Yeah. So early on in editing, I think my, my, my editor, the amazing Jessica Vest at Mariner, was like, I like the technology. It's really interesting, but I think you need to write a little bit more about it. Like how it functions in the world. And she very smartly and Presciently was like, maybe think about how ai, how conversation about AI are happening. And that really clicked something for me. And I think part of the revision was trying to write a little more explicitly about, and so there's definitely some kind of parallel between AI today and the way this device is being approached.

Jason Blitman: 37:53

Back to love for a

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 37:55

yes.

Jason Blitman: 37:56

Not, I promise I won't. It's not about you. Is some of, there's a component in the book that is really about romanticizing what life could be like as an adult gay man.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 38:12

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:13

What was that like for you as a young person?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 38:16

Oh my gosh. I don't know. I mean it's, the real challenge as far as the book went, I think was trying to drop myself and maybe this is worth saying, I don't know if we've said it, like there's a large part of this book that's like historical fiction set in the, like late seventies, early eighties. And I had to drop myself into the car, a gay man in the seventies in El Salvador, part of this really masculine revolutionary movement. And I was like, so what would someone, like these questions that maybe I have some thoughts on, like what's it like to be in the closet? What's it like to imagine marriage for yourself or not be able to imagine marriage for yourself? I think I would, I could use the way I was, have thought about these things. But I did have to really situate it as much as possible in the historical moment. So I think like maybe like my feelings or thoughts about these things were an entry point. And then I was like, okay, let's make sure this feels like realistic and true to the time period.

Jason Blitman: 39:12

How did your experience compare to that of this person in the seventies?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 39:20

mean Oh, that's such a good question. I don't know. I think. I feel very lucky to be living at the time that I'm living. We're living in a really scary time, I think where queer rights and trans rights especially are being politicized and pushed, backed against. Like it's definitely, I. Something I'm thinking about in a different way, but I did grow up at a time where there was a sense of like optimism, I think. And so I, I had a hard time actually accessing because I feel like I experienced a lot of optimism. Me and my friends were able to, grow up in a time of optimism, the Obama years and like all that.

Jason Blitman: 39:56

Old were you when you came out?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 39:58

It was like a trickle. Over the years. Yeah. Yeah. But I dunno, probably not till college though. Yeah. Pretty late. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:07

Okay. But that's interesting to compare. So there, while there is optimism, I think there's still perhaps an element of discomfort or fear or

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 40:17

yeah. Totally. I think they're like, I don't know, will maybe not always be, but I think.

Jason Blitman: 40:22

Yeah,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 40:23

There still is, and I think for understandable reasons and also like different people's context is different, right? Like I think like living in New York, living in a big city, it's no, this is a non-issue, right? But you go even just a few towns over and it's like you're still in New York, like a liberal state, but like people's attitudes towards, sexuality and gender are really different. And yeah. Yeah, I think the hard part was like. Grappling the like capturing that fear and anxiety that I think still exists in some forms and like thinking about what it'd be like if that was like everywhere. And in such a like particular context in El Salvador. That's a nice thing about fiction though. You don't have to get it completely historically, right? So you can just Yeah. Find

Jason Blitman: 41:07

Yeah, and it's I think that's partly why readers often assume that. That they're reading versions of authors on the page because, things don't need to be perhaps historically accurate per se, but they're through the lens of this author. But Right. It's interesting'cause like you, you came out at a time where gay marriage was legal,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 41:31

Yeah. Basically, yeah. Totally. It was, yeah, it's weird. I think, and one thing like going back to this que question of trans rights, something I've been really thinking about is it's scary times. I think even for I dunno people in the US are saying like, let's roll back gay marriage, which is like super scary. But I think like the most, like to me, there was a time where gay marriage was like. Hard to imagine and hard to talk about. The way that I think now trans rights is hard to talk about and for some people to imagine. And it feels to me like the fight has shifted, the way people talk about trans and I don't know, like I grew up hearing some awful things about trans people, even after gay marriage was quote unquote solved in liberal California. I don't know. I think, I guess like in general with my writing, I think a lot about historical parallels. And so like the way people talk about one issue, is really specific, but we talk about things the same way, about different things in similar ways, and I think that's something that I have to do think about to write this book,

Jason Blitman: 42:33

Totally. And it's interesting'cause I think that me saying, and you came out at a time where gay marriage was legal, was. Was less about that specifically and more about acknowledging everything's changed, yet nothing has changed.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 42:51

Yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 42:53

Like in theory there's quote unquote less to be afraid of, and yet there's not.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 42:58

And there's also the context of this is a really international book. Like some of it, like a lot of it takes place in the US but it also takes place in El Salvador and in Cuba. And these are countries that today have really complicated and regressive views on sexuality and gender. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:18

Sim similar path. There's a quote in the book about people find joy among all the difficult parts of life. What are some examples of that for you? I.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 43:30

Oh my goodness. Hanging out with my friends going to the club in the summer. I. When I don't have to coat, check my coat. I'm thinking recently I've, I moved to Queens about a year ago and my life changed because I love my, like where I live which is not the case at my last apartment. And like a good meal like can really turn around a week for me, and there's a lot of options for that around me. Yeah, I

Jason Blitman: 43:56

It's interesting to hear your answers because I think for me, my go-to is glass half full and looking on the bright side and trying to be optimistic, and so I interpreted that as in the face of something difficult to see joy in that specifically.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 44:20

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 44:20

Which I think is very challenging. And so I'm, I am,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 44:23

I like that. I love that.

Jason Blitman: 44:26

I know, I don't know that's really, I don't know how possible that is all the time, right? Oh, okay, here's this hurdle that I'm facing. That will only make me stronger, right? That is not that's, one way to look at it. But I think your perspective of, doing the things that bring you joy in times that are difficult

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 44:44

Yeah. That's also, yeah, I think that's, I. I think that's important to me. And also just maybe this goes back to this idea that like when we have one narrative whether it's a cliche or whether it's a prejudice or whether it's a stereotype, right? It flattens everything else. I think that's true of like trauma and difficulty, right? Because even at the hardest times, there are moments of relief and I think that's something that I had to think about with this book because the historical parts are set amidst, the start of a civil war like. That's heavy. But I think what keeps someone, obviously what keeps people reading is the fact that these two men are trying to make it work, right? And I, needed to write some scenes where they, got to just hang out and profess their love to each other. Because that's always happening, right? Like people are still going through breakups and getting together and having children, even amidst these like big, crazy social and political moments of unrest.

Jason Blitman: 45:40

Yeah, that's where the book takes place, and when the book is coming out, yay.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 45:47

Yes. I love living through history. It's really fun.

Jason Blitman: 45:51

Speaking of final, my the last thing I wanna talk to you about every moment in history is told twice Per the book. Can we talk about that

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 46:01

That's good. Did I write that?

Jason Blitman: 46:03

You did

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 46:04

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 46:05

the victors and the losers, and it's up to us to seek the truth.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 46:11

That's really good. Wow. I haven't read, I haven't read the thi this book all the way through in a while. So I'm like, okay,

Jason Blitman: 46:18

Yes. Okay. I could write a sentence I didn't, that wasn't even a quote a direct quote, but something along those

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 46:25

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:26

What does that mean to you?

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 46:28

I think a lot of this book came from as an undergrad I was studying, I was studying history and literature, so I took classes in both departments and like the mind blowing part of the history stuff was like, there's no objectivity. And I was really lucky to like work with some really amazing scholars who are thinking about this question of. Of who gets to write history and how power affects history and the archive. I think that's why Archive is in the title. And basically like we get the official story, right? That usually is served, usually in the service of a government and what they want, to memorialize or to put in as the official history. And there's a lot of power in that'cause governments are powerful, right? But. Throughout it all. There are other people who are writing history in their own way, right? Whether it's like letters that they wrote to their loved ones during those years as a peer in the novel or others like pamphlets and art and memoirs and all these other things. And I think. Historically we've only tried to, look at the, those with power and how they write about history. And I think it's important to look for the other people who were either erased or pushed to the sides. And I think a lot of historians working today are trying to do that, which is exciting.

Jason Blitman: 47:46

It also makes me think about that there, there are three, three sides to every conversation. There's one person's side, the other person's side, and the truth,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 47:54

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 47:57

And I think there's some version of that too, with history,

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 48:01

Yeah, totally.

Jason Blitman: 48:02

it and who's telling it, and who's sharing it. And.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 48:05

And that's nice. Nice. The nice thing about fiction is that you can try to approach that truth in a new way, right? Like you can try, especially a novel, which is so expansive compared to a short story, you can try bringing in as many perspectives as possible. And that was part of the. The goal here, I think. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:22

Yeah. I'm so excited for you.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 48:25

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 48:26

Congratulations. Archive of Unknown Universes by Reen Reyes Jr. Out now, wherever you get your books.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 48:34

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 48:34

Go get it and think about who your interlock interlocutor would be.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 48:40

Yeah. And also if anyone if any cute single people are listening to the pod, I'm on Instagram, you can find me.

Jason Blitman: 48:50

Oh my God.

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 48:50

This

Jason Blitman: 48:51

if gay's reading becomes the reason why you fall in love, i'm gonna officiate the wedding. I'm registered in the state of New York. Don't worry. I'm so excited. It's already

Ruben Reyes Jr.: 49:00

You guys can all find me on, you know where my dms are

Jason Blitman: 49:03

Yes. Oh my God.

Harper!: 49:06

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 49:10

well, Chloe Michelle Howard, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 49:13

Thank you so much. I'm buzzing to be here.

Jason Blitman: 49:17

Where are you coming from right now?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 49:19

I am in Brighton, in England. Really nice, sunny gay seaside town. Yeah, I love it. I've been living here for like four years now. And it's such a vibe. I keep saying, I'll move home to Ireland and then I just keep not doing that.

Jason Blitman: 49:36

I do feel like the Irish authors that I've spoken to do not live in Ireland anymore.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 49:43

I know. And I really, I was just in Ireland last week and I was like, this is it. Like I want to live here, but then I am not living there. Like, I dunno, I think it's more the admin of actually moving home that I just don't wanna deal with.

Jason Blitman: 49:58

What does that look like over there?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 50:00

It's like. Just even like even packing a bag for a weekend away, I'm like, I don't wanna do this. So if I

Jason Blitman: 50:07

Oh, so you're not like just talking, you're not talking like paperwork. You're talking like any sort of labor.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 50:12

Even just booking the flight is like insurmountable. Like just, I'm like, I can't do it.

Jason Blitman: 50:17

Fair. Okay. What, how does the vibe differ?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 50:22

Well, they're quite different to each other, but I. I think I love them equally. I probably love my hometown a little bit more. It's so tranquil there, so peaceful. It's beautiful. Like the nature, the scenery, it's all stunning and it is really one of those places where like everyone knows everyone and everyone is so nice that, yeah, I love it. Like it's such a community. Whereas here in Brighton, a lot more lively. There's a lot more going on. It's like definitely a very queer place, but you don't really have that community'cause it's a city. Like I don't really know my neighbors too well and I say hello to them, but you know, it's missing that kind of personal touch. But yeah, it's nice. They're kind of a tonic to each other'cause they're quite different. So I'm kind of lucky. I get the best of both.

Jason Blitman: 51:13

Yeah I totally understand that. You kept saying the town you're from in Ireland. Where is that? Can we give it a shout out?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 51:22

It is a tiny, tiny little village called Ross Carberry in West Cork. And, but it's gorgeous. It's coastal and we have, it's right on the water. We have this tiny little square, like a village square. And yeah, besides like the beach and the square, it's fields and like mountain, like cliffs that you can walk on. And if you love walking, it's the best place to be and you don't mind the rain. It's like the best place ever. It's so picturesque. But yeah, similar to what you're saying, like there's not a whole pile going on there. But that slow pace, like it suits me sometimes, you know?

Jason Blitman: 52:01

Yes. There's something very special about it. Americans are so obsessed with Irish culture, with Irish writers, like the people who love reading Irish literature is so interesting to me and like obviously is a great thing for you. We're sort of just like gapping about Ireland, which I'm obsessed with. Um, but like the beasting comes to mind and one of my favorite books in the last few years is The Rachel Incident by Caroline o' Donahue.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 52:31

Yes. Yeah, you're right. Like there's so much good Irish writing coming out at the minute. I love both of those books. It's a funny thing. It's like it's Irish writing is definitely like a genre, but as an Irish writer, I don't, I'm not aware of it in that way.'cause I,

Jason Blitman: 52:48

you are right.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 52:49

I am an Irish writer. Yeah, exactly. It's the same way that like, like I read a lot of like queer books and a lot of lesbian books, but, but for some reason I don't consider my books to be part of that, even though they are,'cause they are lesbian books. I think it's just sometimes I forget that I also write books. Maybe that's what it's,

Jason Blitman: 53:07

Well, we are here to talk about both of those things, both what you're reading and what you're writing. Chloe, as my guest gay reader today, I have to know what are you reading?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 53:15

so I wanna shout out this amazing queer book that I read. I finished it just recently. I have it here. I can hold it up, but it might be mirrored. It's called Dogs of Summer. Oh my God, it's incredible. So I could talk for 24 hours about this book and it's only small, but

Jason Blitman: 53:36

this.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 53:37

it just like, it's, I couldn't believe it. It's one of the best books. It's my favorite book I've read so far this year.

Jason Blitman: 53:45

Really, you've read three.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 53:47

I've read. Yeah, it's the only book I've read so far. Imagine it's, I think it's up there in like my favorite books I've ever read. It's just excellent. I didn't ex, I didn't know what to expect from it. So basically it's about these two 10-year-old girls and they're living in Tenerif and they, one, it's one of the girls is sort of beginning to fall in love with her best friend, but because they're so young, she doesn't really understand that's what it is.

Jason Blitman: 54:18

Yeah.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 54:18

So we are kind of seeing it as that, like as a reader, you understand, but from her point of view. She's just sort of frustrated by what these feelings are and the language is so like it's I was shocked. It's very visceral. It's like violent, disgusting prose. It's like it's gross. So much of it. I was like, what? But it's like it's done like that on purpose because. I read this interview with the author where she said she wants to like capture the last kind of moments in a girl's life where she's an animal before she gets made into a woman.

Jason Blitman: 54:58

Oh, interesting.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 54:59

And so they literally, these two girls, like they behave like animals and it's just bizarre. And what's even more fascinating about it is that I, it's a translation. So the, I obviously haven't read the original, I've read the English version and. All of the language in the book is so like arresting and so refreshing that I'm like, oh my God, this translator and the author, just the way they must have worked together on this. It blew me away when I realized I kind of thought it was a translation. I was going, no, I can't be. It can't be.'cause it's just,

Jason Blitman: 55:34

Too specific

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 55:35

yeah, exactly. I was like, how the hell did they even, like, there's a lot of words that are like misspelled because it's like a 10-year-old. Like just using some English words here and there, and I like the specifics of that. Oh my God, I was just blown away by it. I You have to read it. You have to.

Jason Blitman: 55:55

All right. I'm gonna check. I wrote it down. I'm gonna check it out. Translations are always so interesting to me. Like Frederick Backman, all of his books are translated into English'cause he writes in, I assume, Swedish. I. And it is always astonishing to me that a vibe and humor and very specific things can be translated. Meticulously.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 56:17

Yeah, exactly. And then, but then I wonder, I'm like, what am I missing out on? Is there, there must be some like specific cultural things with translations that they have to sort of. Phrase in a different way. And I, I'm amazed by the fact that like this and the original are like, they're two different books and if someone else was to translate it, that's a third different book. Like I just find it so

Jason Blitman: 56:42

What language is it translated from?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 56:44

It's from, I believe it's Spanish or is it Catalan?

Jason Blitman: 56:48

oh, Uhhuh.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 56:49

translated by the person who, have you heard of the book? Boulder by Ava Baltazar.

Jason Blitman: 56:55

Yeah.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 56:55

Yeah, it's the same translator. So I think I'm going to try and read everything that she's translated because she's just, and she seems to do a lot of like lesbian fiction. I don't know if that's what she's just been given or if that's what she seeks out, but yeah, Julia Sanchez is the translator. She's I'm quite amazed by her. She's brilliant.

Jason Blitman: 57:16

And that'll be interesting for you to see as well how much of herself is in her translations.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 57:24

Exactly. Yeah. I think, yeah, like even though they're two different authors, those two books definitely have a similar vibe. Like there's something about them when they were translating my book, sunburn into German, the translator. Had to message me. And in Ireland you'd say, like, we're going on the session tonight, which is like, just an evening of like drinking and maybe drug taking kind of a party for no reason. And it could, it could happen like out or just in someone's living room, but it's like a, a gathering to drink essentially. And the translator messaged me and she was like, what, just can you explain like, what is this session? Like, what, where are they going? What is this? And I had to just be like. I don't know if there's gonna be a word for this. Like, I don't know how you'll, how will you translate it,

Jason Blitman: 58:10

you translate it?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 58:11

Yeah. And because I don't speak German, I don't really know like where it ended up and how that whatever phrase is used is gonna land. I find it so interesting.

Jason Blitman: 58:22

And then it's up to the translator to interpret what that feeling is and put it in the words of the language that they're translating into. That's so interesting. You talked about reading a ton of queer and lesbian books. Are there any others off the top of your head that you'd wanna shout out? I think it's just always good to know, especially from a different part of the world, what people are reading.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 58:44

I am weirdly reading a lot of translated fiction at the minute. I'm not sure why. So like I Boulder, like I just mentioned, Ava Bazars Boulder. It's a really skinny little book. Brilliant. I'm also reading this amazing book called Feast While You Can, which is like, have you heard of that?

Jason Blitman: 59:01

Uhhuh.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 59:01

Yeah, like queer horror. I never really read horror, but I am, I think this is gonna be my year to get into horror, maybe queer horror, first to warm myself up and then,

Jason Blitman: 59:12

There's another queer horror book called The Lamb.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 59:17

oh, don't talk to me about the lamb. I loved it. Have you read it?

Jason Blitman: 59:21

I didn't read it. No, but I'm like very

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 59:23

Oh my God. So I was nervous because I'm a vegan and it's a lot about cannibalism.

Jason Blitman: 59:30

Even the cover alone, if you're a vegan, would turn you off.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 59:33

literally. And like I don't even cook meat. Like I don't even like to wash up plates that I've had meat in them'cause it makes me feel sick.

Jason Blitman: 59:39

Yeah.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 59:40

And so I was afraid going into it, but actually I couldn't believe like it, it's written with such grace and such, like the cannibalism is like, it's really dignified and it makes sense and it's not like, it's not there just for the sake of like. Oh, spooky, scary, disgusting, gripping thing. It's, it actually is beautiful and it all makes sense within the story. And I was just, I was like, what a talent Lucy Rose is to make me want to read about this.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:13

This is your year of queer horror. Look at you

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:00:16

actually is.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:17

and queer horror. We figured this out.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:00:21

me sound so cool and sophisticated that those are my like things I'm interested in right now.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:25

We have to talk about sunburn, your book, which for you is old news. You're like, this has been out since 2023

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:00:35

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:36

in the uk.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:00:37

It's fun though because like even the version you have there is the US cover, which is so different to the cover that I'm used to seeing it fe it actually feels like it's all new again. Like it's so exciting. And I, yeah, I can't believe that it's like having a proper like rollout in America. I never imagined that that would happen, so, um, yeah,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:00

Tell me, what's your elevator pitch for the book,

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:01:03

Okay. So actually I

Jason Blitman: 1:01:04

done a hundred times.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:01:05

get, I had to ask my partner, Erin to like create the elevator pitch because I, people would ask me what it was about and I'd be like, oh, I don't really know. It's about romance and class and all. Like, I was doing it from like too broad. So Erin told me what it, my book is about,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:23

Listen. Bless Erin. Thank you,

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:01:26

thanks, dear to God for Aaron. So it's, it's, queer coming of age story set in the 1990s in rural Ireland. That's my elevator pitch.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:35

Fab. I've heard you talk about wanting to paint the picture of the beauty and the boredom of the time in Ireland. What was that like? Sort of reliving?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:01:48

So I, I wrote it during COVID and I was living in rural Ireland at the time, so I, I was like, this is as intense as this could get, I guess except for the fact that I had the internet, like that was, the one thing that like made a difference. But it's like when I was growing up for, so full disclosure, I'm not a nineties child. I was born in 96, so I didn't really grow up in that era. I didn't grow up in that era, but like, it's not too far from what I grew up in.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:15

right? For you. It's historical fiction

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:02:17

exactly. But, um,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:19

for me. It's my trauma.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:02:21

Oh dear.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:22

I actually remember what it was like growing up without a computer.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:02:25

oh my God. I remember having like, the big like fat backed computer and like the tower and everything, and I remember dial up and things like that, but. During COVID I didn't even really have to cast my mind back that far because I was like, well, actually this is it. Like, it's quiet. I can't go out, I can't do anything, can't see anyone like it. It really did take me back to that that type of lifestyle. Which was so useful when writing the book because I didn't like it. It was all there before me just waiting to kind of be written about. Like, it, it, it gave me so much source material. But I think as well, like I, I definitely thought when I was writing it that it was like a uniquely Irish thing, but I have realized that it seems people from anywhere in the world seem to relate to like. being a teenager when you're like, I actually just don't wanna be here anymore. I want to be somewhere else. It's a funny thing.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:15

Even if you didn't grow up in a small town,

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:03:17

Yeah, exactly. I think when you're young, like the idea of like your family and your neighbors and the people around you knowing like who you are and what you're doing and knowing your business, I think that's awful when you're young. But like the older I get, the more I really crave that. I think there's actually such safety in it. But yeah, I think when you're a teenager, being like seen in that way is just the worst. It's like repulsive.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:42

This is so funny that you bring this up because I have been asking all of my guest gay readers of late, in an effort to amplify the people around us, if they were to die tomorrow, who would they ask to delete the search history on their computer? Depending on how old they are, they laugh, they say, that's such a good question. And then we sort of like move on to talking about who they would amplify. There are other people who see that as sort of a ridiculous question and but be, I think because of growing up when we did and we. The trauma of people being up in our business at that specific point in time, that means something to us. Whereas some older guests are like that's a dumb question. Why would you ask me that?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:04:32

Oh my God. That's actually like a deep question, isn't it?

Jason Blitman: 1:04:36

That's what I think. Well, because you know, there, it's also, it also says a lot about, you know, you and who we are and who we would sort of turn to in a time of need and.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:04:45

I

Jason Blitman: 1:04:45

So you're not allowed to say your partner, but who would it be?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:04:47

Oh no.'cause that's who I would've said. Okay, who would it be? Probably my friend circa, my good friend circa, I think I would ask her because we, she lives in London. We don't live that far from each other, But we don't get to see each other that much, and we voice notes. Like all day, every day. And so she kind of is my Google in a way. Like if I'm just talking and I think of something, I'll just ask it to her. And I feel like she understands me in a way that like, she wouldn't judge me if I'm, if all I'm Googling is like Kim Kardashian, networth, Chloe Kardashian, networth, Kylie Jenner Networth, she'd be like, that's interesting. Like let's talk about each of their, you know what I mean? Like

Jason Blitman: 1:05:31

Why is that important to you?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:05:34

Because I love playing a game with people where I say like a celebrity and I say, guess their net worth. I'm sure it's always wrong on Google, but I love doing that. And I also love Guess the Age, so I'll be like Tom Hanks and then someone has to guess their age and I love like just then Googling all their ages.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:50

Another good one can be, how tall are they?

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:05:53

Yes. Oh my God, that's a really good one. Although, do you know, it's embarrassing. Like so it a lot of my. Search history is words that,'cause I need synonyms for them. But I would be embarrassed if anyone saw and thought I didn't know the definition to those words. Like I looked up what was, oh yeah, I looked up the word dramatic today to get synonyms for it. But I would hate someone to come along and be like, does she not know what they were dramatic meant? Like that would be really embarrassing.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:22

I know. I wonder it now with the popularity of chat GPT and ai. It could be very interesting to like, put in your chat history or your search history and say, describe this person to

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:06:41

Oh God. Imagine mine would be like, um, she's boring and stupid.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:45

and is she Irish? We can't tell.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:06:47

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:48

So funny. Well, I am so excited that sunburn is coming out in the States. I hope you have a wonderful time with your friend whose, whose map you're using as a background.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:07:01

thank you. Yeah, he's like in and outta the room, I'd say. He's like, what are they talking about?

Jason Blitman: 1:07:07

Shout out to him. Thank you for letting you use his space. Chloe, Michelle Howard, thank you for being here. Everyone go get sunburn it is out now. Wherever you get your books.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:07:18

Thank you so much,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:20

for your American debut.

Chloe Michelle Howarth: 1:07:21

Thank you. This was so fun. I loved this. Thank you so much.

1:07:25

Reuben. Chloe, thank you so much for being here today. Everyone appreciate you as always. Have a wonderful rest of your week and I will see you next week. Bye.