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Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we are spoiler free. Reading from Stars to book club picks. The curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to the season finale of Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have JR Dawson talking to me about her book, the Lighthouse at the Edge of the World. My guest, gay reader is Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and bestselling author, Jonathan Capehart. I am so excited for you to hear this conversation. It is super, super special to me. JR Dawson and I actually went to college together. You'll learn a little bit more about that in our conversation, but we met even before freshman year started, and so it's so special that I get to. And this season of gay's reading with her, as my conversation partner. So I am taking hiatus in August. I will have one special episode in the middle of August on August 15th to announce the September book Club pick. So if you're not familiar, there is a Gay's reading book Club with Allstora. This month we're finishing July with Disappoint Me by Nicola Dinan. And then the August Book Club book is No Body, no Crime by Tess Sharpe. And then the September book will be announced in Midgut. So. while the gays reading hiatus is going on, you could still read along in the book club. You can follow us over on Substack. I'll be posting some more stuff over there. And also there's a lot of back catalog, so if you haven't listened to other gays reading episodes, now is a great time to catch up on some previous conversations. As always, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at Gaze reading over on Instagram, and if you could like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and especially on YouTube. All of that helps the algorithm and helps this little indie podcast go just. A little bit further on the journey to, uh, maybe getting me to make some money, which would be super cool. So, I appreciate all of you so much and that all of you have been on this journey with me and with these authors, and with these guest gay readers, and it has been just a super and overwhelmingly, wonderful season. And so I'm grateful to all of you for listening. And now enjoy my conversations with JR Dawson and Jonathan Capehart.

JR Dawson: 2:54

Ah, it's been like 20 years,

Jason Blitman: 2:57

15.

JR Dawson: 2:58

15 years. Oh my God.

Jason Blitman: 3:00

How are you

JR Dawson: 3:01

I am good. I'm good.

Jason Blitman: 3:03

My, my brain is so I've been so looking forward to today for so long.

JR Dawson: 3:08

too. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 3:10

the whole time I was reading the book, I was like, I can't believe I'm reading Jenny's book.

JR Dawson: 3:15

And I was like, oh my gosh, this is like my college book. This is, And I was excited for you to read it.

Jason Blitman: 3:21

It's so interesting because the book is dedicated to who you were. And literally page one, not even page one, page zero, I'm like getting Misty.'cause I was like, I knew her. I knew that girl that this book is dedicated to did too. And so of course reading it then meant so much. I'm like, I don't even know where to begin. I'm very honored to know that girl that this book is dedicated to. What is your elevator pitch for the lighthouse at the end of the world, I guess I should say, JR. Dawson, welcome to Gay's Reading.

JR Dawson: 3:59

you. My, my very quick pitch is it's a s Orpheus retelling take taking place in Chicago. So that's my very, very quick pitch. The little bit longer pitch is that the. Lake Michigan is the River Sticks. Nera is the ferry, the Ferman's daughter, the ferryman of the Dead's daughter, and she's going to be taking over his job and everything's great until one night when she finds a very live woman on her boat who is looking for her sister who has passed away. And that's the beginning of that.

Jason Blitman: 4:34

What inspired the Orpheus adaptation?

JR Dawson: 4:39

Yeah. So, uh, a couple of things. I actually didn't know about Orpheus and Courtesy until one of our theater school classes made us go see Sarah Rules. it all goes back to this book, go, goes back to DePaul. Okay. And so I went to go see that and I was like, oh, wow that's a real deep myth. And so then I just kind of became. With the story of, of Orpheus. And I also think that being in Chicago, and that was like the first time that I really stepped out into the world by myself, and it was a very big world and I had freedoms that I had not had before. Um, and just exploring the city, but also seeing this weird contrast when it came to the shore of Lake Michigan, especially at night, where the city was always so bright and so alive and filled with light and then there was just nothing. And living in Omaha, Nebraska, I hadn't ever seen that before. Like a coastal, it's not a coast, but like a coastal

Jason Blitman: 5:43

like a coast.

JR Dawson: 5:44

It sure does. And so I remember a couple of times where. Me and, and friends including Patrick Sly, like we would go out and like, just kind of like look up at the stars and look out. And I, I remember one time my old theater teacher had passed around the same time that Patrick's theater teacher had passed and we went out there and kind of like held a, a little memorial. So, then what, four years after, after we graduated, my, one of my friends from DePaul passed and they were actually had their ceremony on Lake Michigan. And so it was just always like this lake is very, for me, connected with death and crossing over in kind of this liminal space outside of this super busy city.

Jason Blitman: 6:30

Wow. I recently talked to Erica j Simpson about her memoir. Erica was in the same acting class as Jeremy Harris

JR Dawson: 6:41

Really? Oh, so she was, a wee babe.

Jason Blitman: 6:44

she was a weeba babe, but she was also cut from the acting program. And so reading her memoir about her story of her mom trying to find housing for them and addiction issues and moving from place to place and the journey that she went to get to school only to then get kicked out and then what that did to her and meant for her. She was talking about her. There's, there are pieces in the book about her time at DePaul And I was saying to her, it was so weird reading because. In the movie adaptation, I am literally a background character. Like I'm, I watched her walk by the admissions office hundreds of times. And the people that she was talking about in the space she was talking about in the room she was talking about, I was very aware of, but I knew nothing of her story.

JR Dawson: 7:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:32

So it was this interesting reminder of like how we can live in the same space as people, but also know nothing about them. Hearing you talk about your experience with Michigan, again as like a person who spent a lot of time with you in a lot of classes with you, had a different experience, but also was completely unaware of your experience, which like to a 37-year-old is breaks your brain and makes you sad. For the 19, 20, 20 1-year-old who didn't know how to. Have a place how, how to like engage with other humans in that time in their lives. You know what I mean?

JR Dawson: 8:11

We were all also under a lot of stress. Like we had a lot of classes, a lot of things that were expected of us. And it was a millennial's worst nightmare where like everything had to be perfect. And everything was very conditional.

Jason Blitman: 8:24

Where we weren't set up for success.

JR Dawson: 8:27

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:27

There's this interesting concept of when Nera suddenly is, encounters a living person, that Forever might end. And the idea of forever ending means it is not forever. And that sort of broke my brain.

JR Dawson: 8:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:51

What does that mean to you?

JR Dawson: 8:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:53

of what is, what has forever become if it is no longer forever?

JR Dawson: 8:58

something very sad. It, it depends. It depends. For me, I think that this book I was writing a lot about how much I missed Chicago. But also halfway through riding it, we had to move. And those were two points in my life where I really felt like things were going to continue on and on and on. Like, I was like, well, of course I'm gonna live in Chicago. Of course I'm gonna stay here with my friends and, you know, get a job here and do this and this and this. But the recession happened while we were in undergrad. I was actually homeless the last part of our sophomore year. Worked and worked to kind of just stay like hand to mouth. The last two years. And then finally my family was like, we cannot afford you to be out there like you are coming home. And uh, so it was, uh, I mean like that's a whole other story how back up in Omaha, but it was one of the saddest days of my life, like packing up my apartment and putting it all in this truck and driving all the way back to Omaha and just giving everything up. And then that kind of tethered to when we were living in Omaha, we lived in Omaha for 13 years like we had been together. I actually met Jesse about three weeks after. Oh, a month after we graduated.

Jason Blitman: 10:14

Oh my God.

JR Dawson: 10:15

Yeah. And, uh, we, we first got engaged about five and a half months after we graduated. And then she went to law school and then we got re-engaged and got married and all this. But we had been together forever. Like we had bought a house, we had these three dogs. We were like that lesbian couple. And, All of a sudden it was just this place that we, you know, thought we were going to bury our dogs in the backyard. Like we, you know, had our mulberry bush, we had our favorite window, we had, you know, all this stuff. We were in the middle of renovating part of downstairs to be a library. And we hadn't even like put out the, the carpet yet, like it was rolled up. And then it was just, oh, we have to go. So this idea of this, these things that you think will stretch on and on, just all of a sudden all these things that you take for granted are gone. And sometimes that can be a good thing, if you're in a bad situation or you think that your life will never change. And I think that some, some of what Nera is going through is just kind of like mundane. And it's exciting that forever is not forever. But it also can be sad like her father is going to pass, like she is no longer safe. Um, And how she's understood her home is no longer how she sees it or how she's experiencing it. I,

Jason Blitman: 12:10

yeah. There's something so comforting in that forever is not real. But you are right. And like, how do we prepare for that? And it's, and a big piece of the book is the concept of with life comes death And that balance of how we just have to deal with that. And it's. Yeah. Overwhelming and scary and yeah. And so much of the book too and literally what she's living in it's, they, people are coming from the world that was, and they are going to the world to come and what, and I would argue that what they're living in is the present.

JR Dawson: 12:55

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 12:55

Which is hard to live in. Why do you think that is? Why do you think, why? I think it's a very universal feeling that we are both harping on the past and also anxious for the future. And it's so hard to live in the moment. Why is that for

JR Dawson: 13:11

Capitalism, Jason? No, I don't. No, I,

Jason Blitman: 13:15

You're not wrong.

JR Dawson: 13:17

I, no, I, I think I think that there's a lot of hurt in the past. There's a lot of nostalgia and also trauma. And we're trying to figure out that puzzle because, sometimes things don't have an answer, but we keep questioning and then the future just seems like, well, this is my hope. Like this is what I want to have happen. Things can be better. Oh, but what if they were worse? So like, I think that there's part of us, that, that has this instinct of is the bear going to eat me? Or maybe it'll be a nice sunny day tomorrow. And so we're constantly preparing.

Jason Blitman: 13:51

And also, if the bear has eaten your neighbor,

JR Dawson: 13:53

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 13:55

then you know it's possible and You're, you have a completely legit reason to fear that,

JR Dawson: 14:00

Yes, exactly. There's a lot of bears out there right now. But yeah. But yeah, no, I, uh, I think that it's, it's, we don't think that we deserve the present or it's happening right now, and I can prepare for the future. I can heal from the past, and so I have the ability to do something in the present, and so that means that I need to go do something instead of just enjoying it.

Jason Blitman: 14:22

Yeah. I respect that. I'm trying to get better at living in the present.

JR Dawson: 14:28

Me too.

Jason Blitman: 14:30

Yeah. It's not easy, especially when like the present, literally the, this present, it's hard to live in, So you're sort of thinking aspirationally for what's to come. And yet, yeah, like COVID was really hard, but I also, but like we did our best to make it. Tolerable. And I, things like this podcast came out of COVID and all sorts of there, there is unfortunately good that can come out of terrible times. And on one hand I do think I'm thinking about, the good that can come from whatever the hell is happening right now.

JR Dawson: 15:04

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 15:05

Similarly in the book, something so novel is a flower growing out of concrete. And I think that's such a great metaphor for right now, right? Let's find the flowers.

JR Dawson: 15:17

Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, that was one thing, like that's another thing that I saw in Chicago when I moved there was like, I was used to being in. What do they call it? The Driftless region? Is that I just learned this. There's an actual, like, name for this region. We just called it where the iceberg ended. But like I lived in an area of Nebraska that was very hilly, very woodsy, like just you couldn't see the sky sometimes because there were so many trees. And if you look at Omaha, it's all under a canopy. And so going from that to Chicago, which is very flat and doesn't have a lot of nature inside the city itself I you definitely take note of where those flowers are growing still. And also my grandma was a big tree grows and Brooklyn fan, so I put that in there for her.

Jason Blitman: 16:04

Oh, I love that. Okay. Completely changing the subject. There's a quote. People don't put ketchup on enough things.

JR Dawson: 16:13

yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:16

Do you believe this? Is this how you feel? Are you a ketchup aficionado?

JR Dawson: 16:20

I think, isn't that one of the dogs that says that? I wrote this a year ago. If it was a dog line,

Jason Blitman: 16:26

I am not asking about the book. I'm asking about you. What do you, how do you feel about ketchup?

JR Dawson: 16:31

so I just think it's, I think that the ketchup No, no ketchup on hot dog is just a very Chicagoan thing. It's just a very, like, it's a microcosm of the whole situation, like Sure. So the reason why Chicagoans don't put ketchup on their hot dogs was they thought that the sausage itself should speak for itself. That you don't need extra stuff on it to, because people were putting ketchup on because the meat was subpar. And they're like our meat isn't subpar, so we don't need ketchup as to which my wife then said, so you put everything else on there, and it's

Jason Blitman: 17:04

say, Chicago hotdogs have so much stuff on it.

JR Dawson: 17:06

So much stuff, and I'm like, this is Chicago. There's very specific ways that you do things, and it's not necessarily because it makes sense, but it's just like a way to codify like, and be like, yes I do, I know the secret handshake. I know how this

Jason Blitman: 17:21

Do, but are but ketchup in general, do you put it on everything?

JR Dawson: 17:25

I put it on hot dogs. It depends. Sometimes I'll, I'll put it on, it depends on the mood. Like, I, I don't, I'm not like a huge Catchup fan.

Jason Blitman: 17:34

This is like deeply personal for me is which is why it's come out. That's why I'm asking.'cause I feel I have opposite strong feelings as whoever, whatever character said this,

JR Dawson: 17:45

you put ketchup on

Jason Blitman: 17:46

I put ketchup on nothing

JR Dawson: 17:48

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 17:49

it's like really good ketchup. Then I'll maybe use it for fries. Quote unquote, freshly made,

JR Dawson: 17:55

oh.

Jason Blitman: 17:55

Ketchup, where it like tastes like tomato sauce. That to me is so good.

JR Dawson: 17:59

I didn't know there were like different tiers of ketchup. This is

Jason Blitman: 18:03

Yeah, it's not too sweet. Not like overly processed. That for me is

JR Dawson: 18:08

yeah. Okay. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 18:10

yeah, otherwise I'll put, I'll eat fries plain.

JR Dawson: 18:15

Yeah, I put

Jason Blitman: 18:16

I'll eat fries with mayonnaise, cheese. But similarly to the hot dog meat, if a fry is so good and it has the right crunch and ha like it's seasoned, what are you gonna catch it for?

JR Dawson: 18:28

Yeah, exactly. It's just an extra little thing. It's,

Jason Blitman: 18:31

You're allowed to do it. It's fine.

JR Dawson: 18:34

it's okay. I don't put, I don't put mayo on a lot of things. If somebody sneaks mayo on, I'm okay with it, but just like sound of a Mayo is just.

Jason Blitman: 18:43

The fact that you just did that is so offensive. That sound.

JR Dawson: 18:47

It is really bad.

Jason Blitman: 18:49

You're, I know you're right. That was impressive too, though. It sounded very accurate.

JR Dawson: 18:54

Oh, thank you. It's the all that theater school.

Jason Blitman: 18:58

oh God. Yeah. That's really funny. Oh my God. Drama music comes up so much in the book. It is, I think a huge theme what, which version of this question do I want to ask you? Music comes up a lot. In the book, there's a quote, music is more than sound. What is music to you?

JR Dawson: 19:17

Oh God. Music is, I mean, what's a word that is ho that means holy, but it isn't holy. So I mean, like, it, it's on a different level for me. Like my mom was super musical and she was like, and I don't know if I, if I completely agree with this now, but she was like, you can take any piece of music anywhere in the world and no matter what language people are speaking or where they grew up, like they'll know what that music means. Which I think like, to an extent is true. I feel, I mean, like, I'm still, I'm still like pondering that answer.'cause I think that there's so many different sorts of music and so many different backgrounds. But anyway, that's a tangent. But like, it, it seems like it, it, it sings to something deeper. And so I definitely like have my own belief system and like, you know, have a spirituality that, that. That I hold dear. And music I think is a part of that, um, which was why it was such a bug to write in a book because it's like, how do you take the idea and the concept of music and how it makes you feel and, and put it in something that you can't hear.

Jason Blitman: 20:24

There I, again, so weird reading this book because I remember being in the basement of U-Haul with you playing the piano.

JR Dawson: 20:35

yeah. Oh, I still have a recording of us one night playing a song from your musical

Jason Blitman: 20:43

What

JR Dawson: 20:44

Hall. I still have this recording. The, I can't wait.

Jason Blitman: 20:48

Uhhuh

JR Dawson: 20:50

I still have it. Some I don't know how it survived all these years,

Jason Blitman: 20:54

what?

JR Dawson: 20:55

yeah, I still have it. I think I emailed it to somebody and then it was just sitting in my email and then it was like, I miss our little shoe. Yep. I still have it.

Jason Blitman: 21:04

Funny. Oh my God. Yeah. I wrote a musical in high school that didn't have a composer. I like had lyrics and one day we were sitting in the basement. Was it Sanctuary

JR Dawson: 21:16

It was Sanctuary. Yeah. I

Jason Blitman: 21:18

and yeah, you just started but putting fingers to the piano and you were like let's sing a song. Let's make it, I can't believe there's a recording.

JR Dawson: 21:29

There is a recording. And you wanted, so you wanted to send it to your friend who played Little Foot and this is all on the recording. It's, and so we recorded it while we were on the phone with him. Yeah. It's the whole thing.

Jason Blitman: 21:43

my God, that's so funny. Yeah. Tommy Decker was the voice of little foot that, oh my God, I'm dying. That's insane. See, this is why I asked you about Don KO's lighters.'cause

JR Dawson: 21:55

there's so many things. that did not like yeah. No, is, there's so many things that didn't survive, like the many laptops and moves that I've had, but that recording still.

Jason Blitman: 22:07

And so weirdly, serendipitously enough, I like thought deeply about that moment reading the book,

JR Dawson: 22:16

Oh wow.

Jason Blitman: 22:17

We're freshmen in college. It was a very musical moment. Whether regardless of what was to come of that, it was the idea of sitting in a room, playing a piano, listening to friends, singing and just like having a nice time was really special.

JR Dawson: 22:34

Yeah, it was really cool. It was a catchy song.

Jason Blitman: 22:39

There in the book there is a list of some songs that are quote unquote, trying to put a sound to the feeling of having a soul. What would some of that, what would a song or two be that for you?

JR Dawson: 22:54

Do I list them? Because the book here, I'm like, is

Jason Blitman: 22:57

You do,

JR Dawson: 22:58

my English literature brain is ah, crap. Which ones are I remember one

Jason Blitman: 23:02

Billie Holiday I think is one of'em. Know what I'm, but I are you is what you're saying that you probably wrote the ones that make you feel that way?

JR Dawson: 23:09

Yeah, for sure. What were the other two? I know one of'em was Strange Fruit, and then I'm trying to, I don't know. what page that is.

Jason Blitman: 23:16

Neither do I should have written the page

JR Dawson: 23:17

I think that's a lot of songs. One example that I can think of from my life is God when I first met my wife and we were dating and like trying to figure out what our next steps were gonna be. I thought it was too good to be true. Like we were just such a good match. And she just, it felt like, like she really understood me and she really got me. And so I asked her to listen to a song and let me know what she thinks of it. So we were like actually sitting outside in the parking lot. And I played her, I played her the Kingdom Hearts theme to show her kind of my soul, be like, this is who I am. And she listened and then she played a song and she played to Erkin and from, oh, it's from Final Fantasy. It's,

Jason Blitman: 24:07

Oh, funny.

JR Dawson: 24:09

And I was like, oh my God. They're two very similar songs. This would be a very aw moment if you

Jason Blitman: 24:13

I knew. Okay. I'm sorry. That was a, my husband is more familiar with the video game soundtrack genre, so he'll appreciate it. I'm sorry that went

JR Dawson: 24:24

it's okay. No. Zakin is a very much like this super beautiful orchestral piece of music. And that's kind of like when we, we knew I mean, we knew before that because we're hopeless romantics, but like we, we really knew like, okay, this is for real. We really do get each other. And I, I think that like when we hear pieces of music that speak to us, like it's something about the human condition that we haven't put words to yet, that we're like, yes. Like, and I think the the one example that I can remember from the book, strange Fruit, like when you listen to that song, the way that she sings it, it isn't just about the musicality of it, which it is about that, but it's also like the way that she performs it, the way that it hits you, like it really hits you. And there's just something magical and. Really special about a song like that.

Jason Blitman: 25:18

Yeah, it's, I feel like some of what you're talking about is that there's music that puts sound to the feeling of having a soul, but there's also music that like touches your soul and can interact with your souls and can express yours. So I think music can do a lot of work for us,

JR Dawson: 25:37

Oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 25:38

which is so interesting. Yeah. Speaking of music, I'm obsessed that there is a singing in the Rain reference in the book.

JR Dawson: 25:48

Is there,

Jason Blitman: 25:49

There is,

JR Dawson: 25:51

see now

Jason Blitman: 25:51

it. And I love, oh my God, I'm dying

JR Dawson: 25:54

oh, there is the singing in the room from Dominic's. Okay. Yes. It's all

Jason Blitman: 25:57

Yes. Oh my God. Again, brought completely back to I guess my youth. I hate that's what it is,

JR Dawson: 26:06

old now.

Jason Blitman: 26:07

I know on one hand it feels like yesterday, on the other hand like I

JR Dawson: 26:11

like we're gonna show up at Frank's like tech class and talk about fried squirrels tomorrow morning. It's

Jason Blitman: 26:18

RIP, Frank Wicked.

JR Dawson: 26:19

Oh, wait, what I knew about Dawn, I didn't know about Frank,

Jason Blitman: 26:22

I know. Yes. I don't mean to be laughing, obviously,

JR Dawson: 26:26

and this is how I find out.

Jason Blitman: 26:28

that's why I'm laughing. I'm just

JR Dawson: 26:29

Frank would love it.

Jason Blitman: 26:31

Breaking news? It was like a few years ago now. Yeah.

JR Dawson: 26:35

my god

Jason Blitman: 26:36

I don't even, I think I saw a post on maybe Facebook or something. I

JR Dawson: 26:38

Okay. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:41

Life

JR Dawson: 26:41

would appreciate it. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:42

know. The book is about so many sad things. It's like hard to talk about like fun uplifting things when talking about, you know, grief and loss and dying and et cetera. But there's something that came up about generally the concept of we're all unique and yet none of us are unique. We're all these individuals and yet we all share the same. Traumas and feelings and emotions and whatever. So what does that mean to you? What does that feel like to you being trying to be your own person and yet engaging with the world as we are all one? Does that make sense?

JR Dawson: 27:22

Yeah. So I think I take comfort in the idea that we're all kind of going through the same thing. I, I think very generationally when it comes to this too just'cause like us millennials just went through very specific things at the same time. And so I feel a lot of compassion for people in my generation. And like when you meet somebody, if you just think to yourself like, Hey, we're all coming from the same place. There's somebody out there who loves this person. There, there's something in them that is a special spark that they're good at, that they would want to talk about. Like, one thing I really like to do is just like when you meet somebody, like, say something that you like about their outfit or whatever, and then they just get like this look on their face, like, oh, thank you. And like, you know, it just, it means so much. And we need more of that connection in this world. And so it is, on the other hand, it's really hard when there's somebody who is super hateful or making very bad decisions and you're like, how did you get there? Like, we're supposed to be in this together. And I also think that. The individuality of each person is really special. And I feel like there's a lot of there are a lot of people out there who would like to homogenize folks. And I think that's one really cool thing about being in the queer community is pushing back against that homo homogenization And being like, no, this is who I am and I'm proud of who I am, and it's okay that this is who I am. And finding that individuality and creativity, I think that's really beautiful. I,

Jason Blitman: 29:00

Yeah, there is another quote in the book. The, there's a question that gets asked in the book, what burns and scars do we keep? And which do we shed when we can? And I think that's such a great question and I think really speaks to some of what you're talking about because there there is this sort of concept of I mean, not to quote RuPaul, but we're all born naked and the rest is drag. Like we're all, we all sort of start at a baseline and then we sort of, for lack of a better term of phrase, collect burns and scars on our journey. And that sort of like what makes us who we are. And so, you know, the idea of going to the beyond and losing some of those scars, I got emotional about wanting to keep my scars.

JR Dawson: 29:51

Oh, Yeah. And yeah, I think this is, especially in the Jewish community, that's a, a question. So some of my background is working with Holocaust survivors, um, and in Holocaust education. And the way that Holocaust survivors have a relationship, or there's not very many left, had a relationship with their tattoos is an ongoing conversation in the Jewish community. And that there are some people who are like, I made it through and this doesn't, you know, this is mine now. And there are other folks that are like, I don't wanna see it. And so one thing when, when world building and creating the afterlife, what is a part of our identity that we want to hold onto, and that is helpful to hold onto for us and what is something that we don't see as part of our identity be it like when it comes to the physicality of us in life. And so that, that, goes to what are our scars and what are our burns also like, what is a disability like I know that, oh my God, when Stephen Hawkings died and there were all those pictures of him popping out of the chair, like it's just, oh my God, no. And so I wanted to make sure that I was making a disability friendly world and also like a queer friendly world where the way that you saw yourself, the way that you felt in your heart and interacted with yourself, that was what mattered.

Jason Blitman: 31:11

Yeah. And so in turn, if some of those scars and burns make, give you that version of yourself, then those are the ones that are the, that, that are kept, right? Yeah. No, it was an interesting thought process for me. Thinking about trauma from my childhood. You talking earlier about some of the things from your youth, I, on one hand, you're like, oh my God, if I could change it, I would. And yet you can't help but think I am the person I am today because of that. And so it's that crazy double-edged sword.

JR Dawson: 31:47

Oh, yeah. When my, so my grandma who is in the back of the book when my grandma passed I was, you know, she had helped raise me. She was like a second mother, a third parent to me. And my mom was like, well, maybe, you know, if, if we hadn't had her help raise you, if you guys weren't so close, it wouldn't hurt so much right now. And I'm like, no, I would never give that up. I would do it a thousand times more. And like it, it came in my first book too. I mean, it's minor spoiler for first break thing, but there's a character whose father is murdered halfway through the book. And there is another character who has the ability to take that grief away from her. Um, and she says, no, let me keep it, let me have it. And so that moment really stuck with me. And so when we started looking at what book two was gonna be, what the next standalone was gonna be like, I was like, I wanna do that moment like that, I know I'm taking that with me.

Jason Blitman: 32:40

Yeah, there one of my notes is goodbyes Must be sad. And Nera talking about being used to endings

JR Dawson: 32:51

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:52

It got me thinking like, what does a goodbye mean? And, you know, got me thinking also about how we haven't seen each other in 15 years. And so did we say goodbye? And what does goodbye and what did that goodbye mean? And. Even if we didn't literally say goodbye, there was a, an ending of the time that we were spending together, that was its own

JR Dawson: 33:12

There was the graduation at the

Jason Blitman: 33:13

That's what I mean. There is that metaphorical goodbye.

JR Dawson: 33:17

was 15 years ago, like a couple of weeks ago. It showed up on Facebook. I was like, no, stop.

Jason Blitman: 33:22

God. Devastating.

JR Dawson: 33:24

a terrible day. Oh my God. I hated that day. Oh

Jason Blitman: 33:29

But yeah, I was just thinking so much about goodbye and grief and grieving the people that we were but also, you know, being grateful for those young versions of ourselves. And all along these lines, another question that comes up in the book is do the living realize they're alive?

JR Dawson: 33:49

Which is a, it's a Thornton Wilder. Shout out. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:52

And like Thornton Wilder, man. Knew what he was doing, but

JR Dawson: 34:00

Act

Jason Blitman: 34:00

a question. And I think that, again, that like hearkens back to the living in the present Past versus future thing. And grief is just, as you say in the books, steadfast and merciless Navigating that is so hard. But again, without it would, you wouldn't wanna take away your grief because,

JR Dawson: 34:20

Yeah. Yeah. And like you think that it's, I think this is something that it's been, oh my god, how many years since my grandmother passed? She died September 9th, 2013. So it's been almost 12 years and it still feels like it still is as raw as it was the day it happened. And like there are days where, I mean, there's different kinds of grief. There's, you know, losing somebody this morning I was, you know, walking to my desk and I went past a bunch of bookshelves where I have a bunch of stuff on there and I saw my friend who passed in 2014, they knitted this hat that their girlfriend gave to me after they passed. And I was just looking at it and I was like, God, I miss you, man. Like, you know, I was like and, and that was just this morning, and they've been gone since July of 2014. So. 11 years now. Um, so it's just constantly there. And, and there's also, you know, the grief of, of our old house and the grief of of our old life and our old friends and stuff. So yeah, there's definitely, like, we would go through something in the process of moving and then I would go to the office and just like, write out how I was feeling about that. Like when we had to say goodbye to our couch. Which like

Jason Blitman: 35:35

that's legit.

JR Dawson: 35:36

it's it was our ca like we raised our dogs on that couch. Like we would all sit on that couch at the end of every day. And we, it was a great couch and we had to throw it in the dumpster'cause it was, my dogs had just ripped it to shreds and I was like, we only have so much room and so I was like, well, how are we gonna do this last night where we're sitting on the couch like we always do? And I was like, we're gonna pretend like we're gonna do it again and we're gonna just enjoy that moment. And so we sat on the couch for like a half an hour and it was really meaningful. Like, we didn't like say goodbye, we didn't. Do a big whole thing about it. We just enjoyed it and then we took it out to the dumpster, and then I went upstairs and I wrote a scene where Nera has to say goodbye to somebody and doesn't want to, and I was like this couch is now this character.

Jason Blitman: 36:21

Well, I mean, And something else that comes up in the book is that it the concept of if you still remember something, it still exists.

JR Dawson: 36:28

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:29

I think a lot of writers, correct me if I'm wrong, part of that, part of why they is to preserve their legacy.

JR Dawson: 36:38

For me, it's to preserve my loved one's. Legacies, I think

Jason Blitman: 36:42

I, I think that's, I think it's all a part

JR Dawson: 36:45

Oh yeah. And also yeah, I was, I felt really alone in Chicago when I was in my early twenties, like when we were in chi in college. I was going through a lot of stuff that. My roommates didn't get that I didn't feel comfortable sharing with everybody that I didn't feel comfortable sharing with my professors. And so like there was a lot of like me on the l by myself, like listening to music and writing the brown line around and around. And so being able to write that and bring an audience in, like, I know that's not everybody's cuppa or wave coping, but, um, it was kind of like to preserve that moment. So I wasn't the only one who would remember it. But it also it was to preserve like how much I love my wife. Like I, there's a lot of my wife and Nera, like a lot and so I wrote the book to show her like, this is how I feel about you. This is how I see you. And also like my, you know, my uncles in that book and my grandmother, both of my grandmothers and my friend and so it was a way of honoring the dead and also to be like. Here are all the people that no longer are interacting with the world and that you might not know, but I get to spend a little bit more time with them.

Jason Blitman: 37:53

Absolutely. And in 50 years when someone picks it up off the shelf in a thrift store, it will live on in them too. All these people will live on in them too, and I think that's really cool. There is a diner at the lighthouse

JR Dawson: 38:10

there is.

Jason Blitman: 38:11

where you can get your favorite meal. What would your meal be?

JR Dawson: 38:17

Oh my gosh. Okay. So probably be Lou Malnati's. I always like, I, I always say that my favorite meal is like double cheeseburgers from McDonald's. Like, this is just a thing that it's always been like even at DePaul, like I would treat myself that Wednesday night. I would go to that McDonald's on the corner of Fullerton and I would get myself a cheeseburger. So it'd either be cheeseburger for McDonald's Or Lou Malnati's.

Jason Blitman: 38:42

I think because I lived down the street from one That was a huge part of my school life. But then I fell madly in love with Giordano's

JR Dawson: 38:57

Jason. No. I mean, Yes. Gi no I, I really love

Jason Blitman: 39:05

and I put ketchup all

JR Dawson: 39:07

all over the pizza. Oh, no. Okay. So the Giordano's in Chicago are, were fine, but we, that's actually where we had our first engagement party was at the anos in Edgewater. But we have a Giordano's here in Minneapolis and I was so excited. It was. Awful. And then I was visiting my friend in Bloomington and they have a giordano's there, and it was worse than awful. And I was just like, you gotta be careful about Giordano's. They franchised it or something.

Jason Blitman: 39:37

There is a moment that felt like it was you. Obviously it was obviously you screaming from the book and it also could have been me. And the quote is, I don't know who I am anymore. I used to, I was gonna be a teacher. I loved theater, and I, it like smacked me in the face. It would've smacked me in the face if I didn't know you. It smacked me in the face, especially because I know you and I feel that way and because we went to school together, like for so many reasons that spoke to me so deeply. Can you share a little bit about your coming into yourself at this point in your life?

JR Dawson: 40:15

Yeah, sure. I, I was really excited for you to read this book. Like when my publicist was like, oh, do you know Jason? I'm like, yes. And I was like, oh, this is the, this is the Chicago book. He'll get it. Um, and so, yeah, no, I think that my relationship with theater definitely has changed through the years. Um, and that's a different kind of grief. Like I don't really do theater anymore. And it's just kind of like when you are growing and when you are going through your life, like the different parts that you play and how you identify yourself and what happens when an art form that you loved so much is no longer a part of your daily life. And I feel like theater is such a loving, wonderful type of magic, but it also hurts so many people. I think that there's a lot of trauma that comes out of being in theater and that that trauma is perpetuated from generation to generation and, also, like what does it mean to not be teaching as much? Like when I was a, classroom, high school drama teacher for five years, and then you step away from that and it's like, oh my gosh, okay, so now what am I, and so as a, like when you do art, like when you were like super into whatever job that is that you're doing and then it's not there anymore, or it didn't turn out the way you thought it would what does that, like, where do you go? It's just kind of is that moment of oh, okay. Like guess I'll take up puzzles, but

Jason Blitman: 41:46

For me it's five years in therapy.

JR Dawson: 41:49

yay so much therapy and still we pay our student loans. But I mean, it's been weird like moving up to Minneapolis because like, it's like, well, how did I make friends in Omaha? Well, I did theater. Huh, well, okay, well I don't do that anymore, so how am I gonna do it now? Which is interesting.

Jason Blitman: 42:05

Yeah. Things the adults around us didn't talk about enough when we were kids is how hard it is to make friends as adults.

JR Dawson: 42:11

Yep yep. They talked, I remember Frank telling us to marry Rich. I remember that part.

Jason Blitman: 42:17

Oh my god. The little pearls of wisdom. And thank you for sharing all of that. I think it's, it's hard, it's hard to grieve who we once were and what we loved and, and yet similar to, you know, all of what we've been talking about. It doesn't mean that those pieces of us can't cycle back around or that we lose those pieces of us because they, A, are our scars. And B, because we remember them, they still live on

JR Dawson: 42:44

and I also think like, when it comes to why it hurts so much, like when you let go of an art form or let go of an identity, is because I know like in the, in the teaching world and in the theater world, like there's this pu this push that like, well, you either make it or you don't make it. If you don't make it, you're a failure. And it's like, that's not true though. Like you can decide to step back at any time and that does not make you a failure. And so that, that mindset though is a very millennial mindset. And it, it gets your, the claw, your claws under, so

Jason Blitman: 43:18

that my biggest takeaway from going to a conservatory theater program where I was where, our department was treated as the redheaded stepchild is you can give me 20 minutes and two nickels and I'll make something happen.

JR Dawson: 43:32

amazing. All you need is maybe somebody in the audience. Arguably you need an audience

Jason Blitman: 43:38

Or whatever it is. It's oh, you want, you need this thing to come to be great. It doesn't matter like that.

JR Dawson: 43:45

my wedding was amazing and

Jason Blitman: 43:46

Yes.

JR Dawson: 43:47

Cheap.'cause I dreamed on a budget. I was like, we got this.

Jason Blitman: 43:51

Yes. Us too. Like taco truck was dinner

JR Dawson: 43:55

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 43:56

it was creative. It was

JR Dawson: 43:58

Did you end up directing and stage managing your wedding too?

Jason Blitman: 44:01

Literally. Yes. We had a cabaret performance. There was literally a 30 minute performance

JR Dawson: 44:07

Oh my god, I love that. Oh, that's so

Jason Blitman: 44:09

friends singing Steve car, like de designed the set.

JR Dawson: 44:15

I love it.

Jason Blitman: 44:16

Yeah. Oh my

JR Dawson: 44:17

that's so cool.

Jason Blitman: 44:19

Okay. In our last few minutes together there some my favorite, I think overall takeaway from the book, which you've sort of touched on. That I'm just curious to hear your feelings about is the difference between being alive and living?

JR Dawson: 44:35

Yeah, I think that it's really easy to disassociate sometimes and to go into the, what do you call it, like the pattern of how each of the days are going to work and take forever for granted. And, uh, I think that you don't know when something is going to go away, which is very scary, but it also makes it really special. And yeah this is a tangent, but I remember in 2022, so a year before we moved, I didn't know we were moving. I started doing that one second a day thing, like the, where you take a second of. Of footage. video. Yeah. I almost said of film. No, a video

Jason Blitman: 45:15

I would've understood what you were talking about.

JR Dawson: 45:18

And, but like, I was like, God, my life is so boring. Like, I remember like taking video every day and just being like here are my dogs and here's my kitchen and here's my car, and you know, here's us working out at the J and here's this. And a year later I went back and I looked at it and I'm like, all of that is gone. I took all of it for granted. I thought it was so boring. And now it's this like relic. Which is, I mean, going back to us playing piano that night in sanctuary hall, like, it, it would've been so easy for that, that recording to get lost. It was just, you know, like this little goofy moment. And then like, I found it and I was listening to it and I'm like, oh my God. Like this, all of this is gone. That piano was like the best piano. And I'm like, that moment is gone. Like The people have moved on and the, the place is no longer ours. And, and it's just like, wow. Like everything that you think is just hum to dumb is maybe not gonna be here tomorrow, especially the way things are going. So I think it's important to not be scared of that, but also be like, wow, this is super special. Like I don't have to be in the most interesting place in the world doing the most interesting thing for it to be interesting.

Jason Blitman: 46:31

One of my favorite Stephen Sondheim lyrics from Into the Woods is if life were only moments, then you'd never know you had one.

JR Dawson: 46:40

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:41

And so on one hand, it can't just be this endless parade of fabulous things, because then they're not fabulous anymore. They're just normal,

JR Dawson: 46:51

And you're tired. I backpacked through Europe for a month and I was done. I got to Scotland and I was like, oh my God, let me go home.

Jason Blitman: 46:58

Yes, exactly. And I think the, there, the book addresses so many things, obviously about grief and loss and memory and all sorts of things that we've talked ad nauseum about in this whole chunk of time. But I find it so interesting, exciting, special that I get to talk to you about it because, for a number of reasons. Because that part of my life I think, felt gone to me, right? And like, you have memories of it, and I have memories of you and you have memories of me. And, and so that's very special. But also, hearing even just the tiniest bits of insight. That you're sharing that I didn't even know about when we quote unquote knew each other, I think opens up so much and expresses so much. And I didn't think you were gonna want to do this

JR Dawson: 48:00

Oh my goodness. No.

Jason Blitman: 48:02

because I was like, I don't know that Jenny likes me. I don't know that she'd wanna remember this time of her life. And so I think there's this interesting element of like the story that I had in my own head and, and. My perception of time and, and what I created and versus what you were actually living and what you were living through. And, you know, reflecting on the sort of friend that you can be at a time in a life and that you don't realize you were or weren't at a time in someone's life. And I don't know, it was all just very interesting and I was thrilled that it was something you wanted to do and I was thrilled to talk to you and to read the book. And so, yeah, I think there's like, all the combination of all of these things is just so special to me because there's it's proving the point of the book.

JR Dawson: 48:51

Yeah. And you know, I was super excited and, and I think that this is, it is a really special thing that's this book that, like you, you reached out about. I'm like, oh my God, yes. Like if anybody's gonna get it, you're gonna get it. And like. I know we've talked a lot about me, but I'm like, well, what was going on in your life? You know?'cause like, like we we were in the same graduating class, we were friends. But I don't know if like we ever rode the L and had like a, a deep conversation like, Hey, I am homeless. So like, Hey, you know, I'm going through this. And so it's, I mean, I, I have a lot of compassion for those two kids. Like we were going through hell. It was a fun hell, but it was still

Jason Blitman: 49:32

sure.

JR Dawson: 49:33

And like you just always had this like, creativity just like pouncing out of you and like, you were like, okay, I have this idea to do this. I have this idea to do that. You know? And like that was, that was always really ad admire. I admired it. I think of the admir rating, admir rising.

Jason Blitman: 49:49

Thank you. I ated you a lot too. And it's interesting, I was literally talking about this in therapy yesterday, but thinking about, moving in with my college boyfriend at 19,

JR Dawson: 50:01

Oh yeah, we watched the Tony's there. Oh, that's right. And then Patrick moved in. Okay. This is all coming back. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 50:09

but I'm but I was like, oh, I was trying to project this life of normalcy that I didn't have in my own childhood, and I thought I could totally do it at 19. And then of course, when John and I broke up and it like, you break up with someone that you're, that you spend every single class

JR Dawson: 50:24

Oh my God. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 50:26

I don't, there, I don't wanna say there were party lines, but it's, you have stronger relationships with different people. So it was just it's such a interesting, complicated time in one's life when you look back on it and.

JR Dawson: 50:37

And see, like my 19-year-old self was like Jason lived next to Disney World as a kid, so clearly his life was perfect.

Jason Blitman: 50:44

God. Yeah. No, but you're right. That's, it's our perceptions of those around us, it's and the perceptions that we want people to have of us are different things too.

JR Dawson: 50:56

And the perceptions that we're scared that people have of us, like that was another big thing that I was dealing with at that, at that age. I think like after college too, it's just like, how do, how is one perceived? So that's, that's rough too. Sometimes we, we, write our own narratives and they make a set yeah.

Jason Blitman: 51:16

But what's interesting is that, you can write your own narrative as much as you want. You put it out into the world, and it's gonna be received however it's

JR Dawson: 51:24

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 51:26

That has taken a long time to learn. And so I do my best to be my most authentic self as most often as I can. And people will either like the flavor or not. And, And that's sort of it, you know,

JR Dawson: 51:42

and it's important to like be the flavor that you are because like, I think I went through a people pleasing stage at one point post-college where I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna do everything for everyone and be everything that everyone wants me to be. And people will, I like, you either have to keep it up or, and start writing a book that you don't wanna write metaphorically. Or like, you finally are just like one day, like, this isn't me. And then everybody's like, oh, I don't like this genre. So it's, I think it's really important to be authentic.

Jason Blitman: 52:14

Yeah. Or it's a, oh, I. Like this genre too,

JR Dawson: 52:20

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 52:21

right? And you're like, oh, you do.

JR Dawson: 52:23

yeah, you gotta find the other fantasy readers.

Jason Blitman: 52:25

Yes, exactly. Or even if you don't love fantasy, it's okay. There's a lot of themes that you could find in this fantasy book. The lighthouse at the edge of the world, which we are reading at the end of the world

JR Dawson: 52:38

at the end of the world. Yeah, it's been weird promoting books while this is going on. It's super great.

Jason Blitman: 52:45

Yeah. But I am so grateful that you are here and this book is, it has a beating heart of Chicago, and it gave me a lot of feelings and I'm excited for everyone to read it. And it comes out today The Lighthouse at the Edge of the World by JR. Dawson. Go buy it wherever you get your books. And thank you so much for being here.

JR Dawson: 53:06

Thanks for having me.

Harper!: 53:08

Guest Gay Reader time!

Jason Blitman: 53:12

I'm obsessed at how well dressed you are. You're matching your background.

Jonathan Capehart: 53:17

accident. I am so sorry.

Jason Blitman: 53:19

No it's okay. It makes it easier to put you in the tropical paradise that I do for all my guests in post. We're here to talk books. How fabulous. Jonathan Capehart, welcome to Gay's Reading. Thank you for, for being my guest gay reader today.

Jonathan Capehart: 53:35

Oh, thank you. The look, the honor is mine.

Jason Blitman: 53:39

And listening to your book reading has been on part of your journey from the beginning.

Jonathan Capehart: 53:46

Yes. My mother said to me from earliest memory was we would go to Center Mall, usually in New Jersey, and she would say. I am not going into toy stores. Don't even ask, I'm not buying you anything. But we go into a bookstore, which my mother went to a book, the bookstore, every time we went to the mall, Barnes and Noble and and she said, but if we're in the bookstore, any book you want, I'll get it. And so I would come out of there with loads of books as I grew older from Mother Goose all the way to Agatha Christi when I was older.

Jason Blitman: 54:26

Yeah. And what did you say? Medical books. You had all sorts of things around you. No. You took,

Jonathan Capehart: 54:33

I'm

Jason Blitman: 54:34

and I get maybe at home. You weren't getting those at Barnes and Noble, but you were like. You had all sorts of books around

Jonathan Capehart: 54:40

No. That's, and down south at my grandparents there was this medical book with the plastic overlays. The young people listening to this right now, they're like, what the hell is he talking about? What's a book? What's plastic overlays? There's this page where you'd have a primary graphic and then you'd have these plastic overlays that would fill in. Various parts of the picture. And so I was fascinated by that. But the book that I am, I most cherished and it, I'm still kicking myself 50 years later that I did not take it with me. It was a history book that my grandparents had in their home. It, and this is where my fascination with Ancient Rome came in and this history book. Jason ended at World War I. It ended at World War I, so the Ottoman Empire and everything. It was with maps and stuff. I loved that book, loved it, and didn't have the presence of mind to steal it from my grandparents.

Jason Blitman: 55:46

you were eight. It's fine. Forgive him. That's honestly, I'm stuck on the fact that you probably like very clearly know where your spleen is because of the plastic overlays

Jonathan Capehart: 55:59

When I was eight, I did, I have no idea. I'm assume, I assume I still have since I've had no surgeries. But you,

Jason Blitman: 56:07

because you're, I'm always like, anytime I have a little pain in my abdomen, you're, I'm Googling. What side is my appendix on? Where's my append?

Jonathan Capehart: 56:16

Me too. I was like, wait is it about to blow up?

Jason Blitman: 56:20

But if you still had those plastic overlays, Then you would know.

Jonathan Capehart: 56:24

I would,

Jason Blitman: 56:26

I know. Oh my

Jonathan Capehart: 56:27

Old technology

Jason Blitman: 56:28

okay as my guest, gay reader, what are you reading now? I assume you have things on your nightstand.

Jonathan Capehart: 56:35

So many things.

Jason Blitman: 56:36

Yeah.

Jonathan Capehart: 56:37

so many things, but the primary book I'm reading, I actually have it right next to me, is Lorne, the Man who invented Saturday Night Live by Susan Morrison. I'm doing a book event with her in Washington in the fall which I was already reading the book and then the request came in. But it's fascinating because it's two books. It's two dramatic stories told in one one book. So one storyline is basically how Saturday Night Live gets made. One section is called Monday and it's all about, it starts with the it starts. Yeah, it's in parts. So part one is Monday, part two is Tuesday, and so part one Monday we. I think it's Jonah. What's that? I, so that I have to flip through the pages, but it's a guy who's hosted the show many times and we walk with him from day one coming in to get ready for the show. That will be on Saturday, but this is a Monday and how it all works. And so you go through the opening meetings and the conversations that are had and musical guest conversations, the writers, you get into how they all interact. And then, and the second part of each chapter is then Lorne Michael's life. And so you get, so Monday started the show planning of the show Monday, the beginning of like, where does Lorne Michaels come from, his upbringing, who his parents are, how did he get into show business? And so you are reading these two stories beautifully at the same time. It's really.

Jason Blitman: 58:31

Monday of his life.

Jonathan Capehart: 58:33

It's really well done. And I, when I read books, I underline, I take notes and they are, they surprisingly, to me anyway, there are lots of sort of Lorne Michael lessons. come through in, in, in the telling of his story. And I will finish it before we do this event, it was Lauren O'Donnell, my M MSN M-S-N-B-C colleague who told me that I, he told me that he told everyone at 30 Rock at M-S-N-B-C that they needed to read this book in order to understand 30 rock. And how it works because it's a mental, it's a mentality between, as he described it to me, the people who wear makeup and the people who don't,

Jason Blitman: 59:23

Hmm.

Jonathan Capehart: 59:23

And how the people who don't wear makeup think that they can do what the people of makeup do, and both sides don't under really understand the other,

Jason Blitman: 59:35

Hmm.

Jonathan Capehart: 59:35

But each side thinks that they know better. And l Michaels is the one who walks that tightrope

Jason Blitman: 59:46

Interesting. And how fascinating for you to be reading this now at this point in your career after 30 Rock as an institution being so important to your journey.

Jonathan Capehart: 59:59

Yeah. It's that building and what's gonna be later this fall we leave M-S-N-B-C leaves. That Art Deco Palace on between 49th and 50th. Fifth and sixth avenues in New York.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:14

Are you gonna miss the Magnolia Bakery the most?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:00:17

oh no, Jason, please. No Magnolia Bakery.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:22

Where do you get your banana pudding?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:00:25

I don't, no, no Banana pudding. When I, if I get cupcakes, if I get

Jason Blitman: 1:00:30

Oh no, I do not like their cupcake.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:00:33

Okay, thank you.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:34

where do you get them from?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:00:35

because those cupcakes.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:37

No. No.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:00:38

the best cup, the best cupcakes come from baked and wired here in Washington DC

Jason Blitman: 1:00:46

Oh. If you're in New York City, you can't get them there, but baked and

Jonathan Capehart: 1:00:49

No, I know. Yeah. Baked and wired. They're good. There is a better cake to frosting ratio. Because I think the problem with Magnolia is like the frosting. It's, like cloud high and then the cake is like that.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:07

Okay.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:01:08

thick.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:08

Here is my hot take on how to eat a cupcake To help with this.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:01:15

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:16

You pull off the bottom and you put it on the top. you eat it like a sandwich

Jonathan Capehart: 1:01:22

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:23

the ratio.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:01:24

I see. But, and I get that, and that's great. For those of you who like, all that frosting

Jason Blitman: 1:01:32

You're right, it's still too much.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:01:34

it's oh my God, my teeth are screaming. It's so I usually slice off three quarters of the frosting. To me, for me, it's the cake. Like

Jason Blitman: 1:01:42

Yeah, you're talking to a person who eats pancakes. I don't eat pancakes all the time, but who eats pancakes without syrup?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:01:49

that's wrong. That's wrong. You know what? Where's Geneva? You're violating her conventions.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:55

so nice to meet you. Have a great rest of your day. Are you a, are you an SNL fan?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:02:01

I am. I've been watching it since my early teens when it was Belushi and Jane Carton. All the people that they, it is fascinating in Lorne to read about all those people. How, why they were chosen And then how stardom really impacted how the show was made and how they interacted with each other. And I didn't realize that Jane Carton was chosen because she looked like, a regular middle class white housewife. Of Saturday Night Live was about pulling in, basically pulling in the middle.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:44

Yeah so they wanted people who looked like someone from the Midwest, from Middle America to watch. They wanna see themselves on tv.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:02:52

And so that makes casting, after reading that. Now I'm going back and thinking, oh, ah, that's why. That's why she's picked, that's why she's picked. Oh, that's why she's picked. Glad she's funny.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:07

Yeah, and really you like think back on who some of these what some of these cast looked like and they all could have been your neighbor. They didn't necessarily look like glamorous stars.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:03:18

right. They look like regular old folks. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:21

Oh, fun. Going back to your youth is, do you remember a book that had a huge impact on you as a kid? That was, that's maybe like a novel That wasn't the history book.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:03:32

I really loved Agatha Christie books. There was Death on the Nile that I really loved. There was, and then there were none. Which was really fun. I just loved, just, no pun intended, the mystery of it all. You've got the big scene setter and then you're reading the, all the conversation and you're getting, and you think, I think I know. I think I know who did it, or I think I know what's happening. And then, like Zos. Wait, what? Oh, how did I miss that? How did I miss that? But in, in reading those books though, it is about great storytelling, but looking back on it, it's telling you, particularly as a kid, to pay attention to detail, that there are things written particularly in a book, but I also pick up on this in movies, things that seem like that's an errant observation. Or that why? Why did they show us that with a closeup? What is that for? And now I'm like. Oh, there's this errand observation, like what do I care the color of her stockings? Oh, okay. Duly noted. And let's see where that pops up again later. Actually, Jason, you mention I should pull out one of those,'cause I still have them, one of my Agatha Christie books and just read it with adult eyes. Four or five decades later, four decades later.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:09

of course.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:05:10

much I up

Jason Blitman: 1:05:10

Okay. Hot take, maybe. Controversial. Did it translate into murder? She wrote?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:05:16

Oh, I only watched it murder she wrote maybe one season,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:22

Interesting.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:05:23

but she did remind me a lot of Agatha Christie.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:27

It's, I think it's a similar tone.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:05:30

Yeah, Angela Lansbury reminds Remind, when I watched Murder She Wrote was a visual interpretation for me of Ms. Marvel.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:40

Yes. I

Jonathan Capehart: 1:05:41

but someone had an interesting hot take on. The Angela Lansbury character in Murder, she wrote that I saw on social media like a year or so ago,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:51

Huh.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:05:52

where they like, they're like, hear me out. How? How is she not a serial killer? And then they walked through all the steps, like she's the one who finds the body, she's the one who does all these things. And you read that and you're like, oh. Oh my God. I somehow now feel unclean.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:15

Meanwhile, I, you were the one who just said someone on social media and you also said, I didn't really love murder. She wrote, I maybe watched one season, so maybe it was you who decided this.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:06:29

No, it wasn't me. I swear. I swear. But I did. I did just watch one season and I liked it, but I guess maybe I got older and I moved on

Jason Blitman: 1:06:36

Totally. Totally.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:06:38

Dynasty?

Jason Blitman: 1:06:39

Okay, we have to talk about your book, but speaking of details that are picked up and things that I, have to ask you that comes up in your book and I need to know who would you have voted for? Marsha or Greg?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:06:53

Oh that's an, that is an interesting question because. the one hand, I like them both on the one hand and you're, this is not gonna be a surprise to you. Greg was cute,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:09

Yeah.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:07:10

he was smart, nice, like a genuinely nice person as a character on the show.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:16

Yeah.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:07:17

But then Marsha was glam and smart. Kind of nice, even though she bullied the hell outta Jan. And so I think I probably would've gone to the voting booth or with a piece of paper and I probably would've voted for Greg.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:38

Oh, but you would've told people you voted for Marsha,

Jonathan Capehart: 1:07:42

No, I wouldn't have done that. I would not have done that. No. If I make the vote, if I'm gonna tell you who I voted for, I will tell you who I voted for, whether they won or lost.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:51

Alright. Interesting. Okay. Okay, so your book yet, here I am, lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home Out Now wherever books are sold. What does home mean to you?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:08:05

It wasn't until I was writing the last chapter, That, and literally in the last couple of hours. Of writing the last chapter that it hit me where I write in there, where I talk about how Darren Walker, Joe Versace, Karen Finney, they are all home to me and then I think I write that word home I realize comes up a lot through the book. It was in that moment that I realized, oh, wait a minute. Home, and that's when I got into the whole riff about home can be anything. It could be a person, it could be a place, it could be a thing that the person, the place, or the thing that makes you feel the most you, the most comfortable, the most safe, the most. Especially if it's people and particularly a place where you feel like your shoulders are down, you can be yourself, you are your true, authentic self in these places or with these people or around these things. And when you are at home, that's when you feel your safest and you're most secure. And so in, thinking back. About home. That's where I think the sort of subtitle, lessons from my search for home, like from the beginning all the way to the end, and it says it's a search that doesn't, it doesn't stop. Maybe you collect more homes as you get older.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:49

Where did the book. Come from for you at this point in your life?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:09:55

I had the stories about down south, my summers down south in my head forever, and when Trump was elected the first time. I decided I need to get off this merry-go-round.'cause my job is in the news, so I had to pay attention. Then I had to get off the merry-go-round one weekend in 2017. So I decided this is the weekend I'm gonna sit down and get these stories out of my head. And so I just started, I sat down and I just started writing and. I spent all weekend writing. I love writing and so the fact that I was in it and I was in the groove and I had my music on and I had a movie on and I'm a lunatic when I write. So I had all

Jason Blitman: 1:10:39

to?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:10:40

at that time probably a playlist that I could look up'cause I date them.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:47

Oh

Jonathan Capehart: 1:10:47

So and I'm writing writing, and the weekend is over and I think I printed it out and I gave it to my husband to read, and then I sent it to a bunch of friends and I asked him, what do you think? And three people in particular, Tamron Hall, joy Reed, April Ryan, and they all said to me, oh my God, this is incredible. Keep going. Keep going. And especially April Ryan was the person who said every time she saw me, how's it going? How's it going? Keep going. Your story needs to be out there. It needs to be told. Do you have an agent yet? She said she kept pushing. And as I was writing, I went back to, my, my touchstones in terms of authors. And their impact on me when I read their books. Catherine Graham's book, personal History was incredible because here's this woman, an incredibly powerful woman, the most powerful woman in journalism at the time as the owner and publisher of The Washington Post, and also one of the most powerful women in American politics by virtue of that position. And here she writes this book where she is. Open, honest, vulnerable about her insecurities, her fraught relationship with her mother what it was like when her husband died, and then she had to run the paper, the, what was happening during Watergate and questioning whether she was doing the right thing and Watergate or the Pentagon Papers. And I thought one, just as a reader, it was wonderful to see a person of that stature. Put themselves out there for everyone to see

Jason Blitman: 1:12:30

Yeah,

Jonathan Capehart: 1:12:31

and then fast.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:32

is important.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:12:33

Yes. And then, and how many people of that stature don't allow themselves to be vulnerable? They put out books that are just, Ooh, yawn, fast forward 20 years, and Charles Blow writes, fire Shut up in my Bones again. Open, honest, raw, introspective. And after reading his book, I realized I understood what was driving the power behind his columns for the New York Times. Like I understood where that finally, where that was coming from. And so between these two people, Catherine Graham on this side, Charles Blow on this side, they're, they are literally the comp opposites of each other. Then my friend Richie Jackson who wrote day

Jason Blitman: 1:13:22

guest, gay reader on gay's reading.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:13:24

ah, shoot, I shoulda have reached out to him to find out who is this Jason? As I was writing we were staying with them in Richie and Jordan in East Hampton. And he said, he was asking me how the writing was going, and then he said to me, Jonathan, remember, put yourself on every page. Just make sure that you put yourself on every page for the reader to see you. And so between those three, as I was writing, especially, once I had the book contract and the deadlines staring at, having these three muses, if you were

Jason Blitman: 1:14:00

Yeah.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:14:01

constantly, in my ears as I was writing, was terrific because. Why write a memoir if you are not going to be as forthcoming as you can to the reader, especially if your goal is to be understood better than maybe what your public persona or the perception really of you is.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:33

Three things in particular that stuck out to me. I don't know that I've ever talked to anyone else publicly who, I didn't tell this to my husband until probably almost 10 years into our relationship, but I also got under a thousand on my SATs. And that was like a big point of shame for me. And so to as simple as hearing someone, in a position like yours say, I didn't do well'cause I don't test well. And, that's, that was one thing. And then of course. The book is inherently gay because you're gay. However, showing moments of comparing yourself to the movie showgirl, or sharing that you saw Joan Rivers on your 18th birthday, like it doesn't really get gayer than that

Jonathan Capehart: 1:15:23

Oh,

Jason Blitman: 1:15:24

can,

Jonathan Capehart: 1:15:24

there's one more. There's one more reference

Jason Blitman: 1:15:27

what am I missing?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:15:28

The editor cut out and I was like, oh, hell no. And I put it back

Jason Blitman: 1:15:33

Which one?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:15:34

when my mother and soon to be stepfather, they announced to me that they're getting married. And I walked out and then I came back and I said, you're gonna have to find a private school for me to go to. I'm not going to public school in Newark. I'll get beat up and then I turn with Dominique Devereux flair out of the room.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:57

Yes.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:15:58

more. One more gate.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:00

Exactly. So those little nuggets, talking about Richie's advice of putting yourself on the page, I think that those are great examples of that alone. Something that I have been asking all of my guest gay readers that have had a varying degree of responses based on age. You answer in the book l. Now, so I have been asking if in, in an effort to amplify important people around us, if we were to die, if you were to die tomorrow, who would you ask to delete the search history on your computer? And you answer this in the book, in, in a roundabout way.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:16:43

Because you know when this particular story you're talking about happened, we didn't have a search history.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:51

no. This was the real life equivalent of search history, I was dying at this moment in the story. You don't have, let's, we'll let our listeners go check out the book to hear the story, but can you talk about this friend and amplify why they're important to you and why you would choose them?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:17:08

This is chapter eight with the chapter title is Hide Your Porn and so I've already talked about how my mother announced to me that she was getting remarried and stepfather. Now, fast forward six years, I've already graduated college. Carleton College. I stayed a year to be assistant to the president, and it was that winter. It was during winter break, so this was December of nine, of 89. And my mother and I, we talk and she says so yeah, I think. I think I'm gonna be moving out before the, by the end of the week. This is like a Monday or Tuesday, and I was like, oh, great. And okay, I hang up the phone and then I call my junior year roommate Ricardo, who li also was from New Jersey, from Teaneck, New Jersey, and I called him with an urgent mission. He had to go rescue

Jason Blitman: 1:18:04

Delete the search history,

Jonathan Capehart: 1:18:05

to delete the search history in an analog way.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:09

Yes. Are we still in touch with Ricardo?

Jonathan Capehart: 1:18:11

I have not talked to Ricardo in or been in touch with him in a few years, but I need to email him and say Hey, where can I send you an autograph copy of the book? Because

Jason Blitman: 1:18:22

a big old, thank you.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:18:24

Maybe you've already heard that you are part of this book. But yeah, so that's why when people read the story, it's. It is between the down south stuff that I the stories that I wrote, the Ricardo Porn recovery story is another story that I wrote down that weekend.'cause it was like, this is, I need to get this down. This must be in whatever version of the book there is. It must be there. It's just to

Jason Blitman: 1:18:55

So good.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:18:56

Do you know how many people have come up to me at book signings? And have said to me, I had the same experience. I had to go rescue some, my brother's porn stash or.

Jason Blitman: 1:19:09

Yeah. I unfortunately had a stash underneath my mattress and one day it was gone. So I just, I know that, you know, parent changing the sheets or something probably saw, so that, that

Jonathan Capehart: 1:19:29

get a paper cut hitting with oh what is that?

Jason Blitman: 1:19:33

Yes, exactly. Just a little trauma, it's fine. Nothing, not like the world is ending, so it's fine.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:19:41

adults still.

Jason Blitman: 1:19:42

Exactly. Jonathan Capehart, what a pleasure.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:19:46

What we're, we're all done.

Jason Blitman: 1:19:48

I've kept you for so long. We could talk all day. Your book yet? Here I am, lessons from a Black Man. Search for Home is Out now. Wherever you get your books and all the great things people could find you on the social media. This is the very last episode of the season. It's the last episode of the summer. So you're like the grand finale moment.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:20:12

neat. Oh, you know what? There's one other thing about my book that we haven't sent.

Jason Blitman: 1:20:17

What.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:20:17

It is a New York Times bestseller

Jason Blitman: 1:20:19

Oh, excuse me. New York Times Bestseller from Pulitzer Prize Winner, Jonathan Capehart. Gotta give all the accolades when they are due. Yes, bestselling Pulitzer Prize winner, Jonathan Capehart. What a way to send out our summer. Fabulous guest, gay reader. Thank you so much for being here.

Jonathan Capehart: 1:20:42

Oh my God. Jason, this is so much fun. Thank you for having me.

Jason Blitman: 1:20:47

My absolute pleasure.

1:20:49

Thank you Jr. Thank you Jonathan. Everyone, uh, thank you so much for being here. Happy season finale. Have a wonderful few weeks and a great rest of your day. Bye.