0:34

Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have Patrick Ryan talking to me about his book Buckeye. And then my guest, gay reader is Rabih Alameddine, and he talks to me about his book. The true, true story of Raja, the gullible and his mother. Um, I have so much fun with both of them. Both of their bios are in the show notes. Both of their books are out now. Buckeye is. Is this month's read with Jenna Book Club Pick and of course next week on Gay's reading is Eliana Ramage and her book is this Month's Reese's Book Club Pick. Lots of book club going on these days. Speaking of book club, the Gay's Reading Book Club through ura, you could still join for the month of September. That book is The Sunflower Boys by Sam Wachman. On September 15th, our. October book will be announced, so keep an eye out for that. I'm super, super excited. though I, I can hint that that book comes out today, so it comes out on September 9th, even though. Uh, it'll be announced on September 15th. And what else? If you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends. follow us on social media. We are at Gays Reading on Instagram, and if you can like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, that really helps other folks find Gays reading if you're new. I am so happy to have you. Welcome. There's a massive backlog of. Of author episodes that you can listen to, and I am excited to share those with you. Excited to, for you to check those out and if you have been, uh, hanging around here for a long time. Thanks as always for sticking around. I think those are all the things to share and enjoy my conversations with Patrick and Rabih.

Jason Blitman: 2:29

We don't need any of it for the actual episode. No one needs to know where you live.

Patrick Ryan: 2:33

That's true. Yeah. I just dumped out a lot of personal

Jason Blitman: 2:37

Once they read your book, they're gonna wanna come stalk you. Oh my God. Because I'm staying at an Airbnb right now, I'm not in my normal space. I'm, it's hard to regulate temperature. It's humid here so I'm just like, I'm I'm half sweating, but I'm also a little bit cold.

Patrick Ryan: 2:51

It's I'm all, it's all good with me. And I won't judge you by your decor'cause it's not yours, so it's all good. It's Airbnb

Jason Blitman: 2:59

I call this TJ Maxx art. It might as well say live, laugh, love

Patrick Ryan: 3:04

Yes, it probably does

Jason Blitman: 3:06

it. Prob right in, in little scribble and little, cursive at the bottom that someone, has printed on mass. Anyway. Yeah, no, not me. I don't ever have fake plants anywhere.

Patrick Ryan: 3:17

I can't tell. It's fake now. I know it's fake,

Jason Blitman: 3:19

Now, I'm devastated about it. No,

Patrick Ryan: 3:23

just got back from a really cute, similarly decorated place last weekend.

Jason Blitman: 3:28

Oh, good. Celebrating. You have a lot to celebrate.

Patrick Ryan: 3:33

Yeah. I know. I highly recommend. Having a book come out right when you're having a big round birthday, it's, it really distracts you from any other kind of thinking.

Jason Blitman: 3:42

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 3:43

Yeah. You know, But I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to. I'm happy to be the age that I am,

Jason Blitman: 3:47

yeah. Good. But we are here to talk about Buckeye. Okay. For the people. For the listeners, for the watchers, however many people I ever get watching this. What is your elevator pitch for Buckeye?

Patrick Ryan: 4:03

Okay. The elevator pitch is that Buckeye is an epic length story that spans 40 years and set in a small town in Ohio, and it begins at the moment of the. Allied Victory in Europe during World War ii, and it tells a story of two families whose lives become intertwined and compounded by one bad decision and one big secret that shapes them and shapes the next generation to come. And it has a background of several different wars and all of the turbulent events of. to actually six decades, but four main decades of of the 20th century.

Jason Blitman: 4:51

Yeah. I don't know how you're gonna feel about me saying this, but

Patrick Ryan: 4:59

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 4:59

haven't seen Forrest Gump in a very long time. So take this with a grain of salt. But what I, the feeling that I remember having watched Forrest Gump is the feeling that I had reading this book.

Patrick Ryan: 5:17

Okay. I see. I think I see not because of the life as a box of chocolates mentality, but because of the sweep.

Jason Blitman: 5:26

The sweep, the general time period, the intersection of lives. I, oh, I was like, oh, they, if there was a festival about a time period and a vibe, they would be at the same festival.

Patrick Ryan: 5:41

I will take that. I like that. Yeah. I mean it, not that this, not that I have my characters interacting with famous historical

Jason Blitman: 5:49

No. It is there Not the same in any way, shape or form other than vibe. I just, that was my, I was like, oh, this is,

Patrick Ryan: 5:55

I have also not seen it since it came out. But yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:58

So that's all very Americana specific time. Anyway I didn't know what a Buckeye looked like until reading this. I, of course. Googled and was like, oh, that's why those peanut butter dipped in chocolate. Things are called Buckeyes.'cause they look literally exactly like a Buckeye.

Patrick Ryan: 6:21

yes. This, here they are. Buckeye Candies. This is like product endorsement. But

Jason Blitman: 6:30

I know They should sponsor this episode.

Patrick Ryan: 6:32

Yeah, it's the Anthony Thomas Chocolates company and and I found these online and they were the ones that I could find to order online that didn't need refrigerated. The really fancy ones that people make by hand, you can order, but they take freezer packs and you have to sign an agreement that says, I know that I live in a hot place, or, the planet's melting or something. And but yeah, the the Buckeye chocolates, I never knew they were an actual nut. I just knew they were the.

Jason Blitman: 6:58

the chocolate thing, right? Yes. I didn't know they were nuts until reading this book. And then I googled the nuts. Oh.

Patrick Ryan: 7:03

I think there are

Jason Blitman: 7:03

I went on a Buckeye

Patrick Ryan: 7:04

and didn't know they were, didn't know they were candy. The journey I can tell you the journey to the title but,

Jason Blitman: 7:10

Sure. No, we, I don't want, no, I want people to read it and interpret it themselves because I don't want you to tell us, but I will say I, after reading the book, listened to a conversation between you and Anne Patchett. Talking about the Dutch House and you asking her about why there's not a house on the cover of the book. And of course I notice that there's not a Buckeye on the cover of this

Patrick Ryan: 7:33

that's such a yes. I love where you're going.

Jason Blitman: 7:36

So I'm just pointing that out.

Patrick Ryan: 7:38

Yeah. Okay. This is a great I think, interesting thing. I do remember her telling me that. About, about not wanting that. And I do remember over the years, oh, I remember reading an interview once with say, chip Kidd and him saying his saying that one of the things he tries to do is not be literal. So it, if a book is called. X, there isn't gonna be an X on the cover. And that, and she underscored that. When she told me that. And when they were starting to just think about ideas for the cover for this book, the, my in-house editor asked me if I had any, anything I didn't want to see, and I gave them a list. I can't

Jason Blitman: 8:25

long was the list?

Patrick Ryan: 8:27

It was at least six or eight things. One of the very first one

Jason Blitman: 8:33

was a Buckeye. Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 8:36

A Buckeye.

Jason Blitman: 8:37

though it would of course be super awkward if the book was called X and there was a Y on the cover.

Patrick Ryan: 8:42

but wouldn't that be interesting?

Jason Blitman: 8:44

You're right. Yes, you're right. It would make you wonder y

Patrick Ryan: 8:48

X novel? And there's a giant Y on the Y. One of the things I said I just went ahead and proactively. Went places so that they wouldn't and one of the, I said, please no no, no little planes in the background in the sky.

Jason Blitman: 9:08

war, no plane. Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 9:10

Which is very, you're almost tripping over these images and it, I don't know, it's just, and also no Ferris wheels. I said, please don't, there is a Ferris wheel in the book, but I said, please don't. And. I think I, I probably said no flag, no American flags. No.

Jason Blitman: 9:28

Now is not a good time for an American flag. Yeah. No.

Patrick Ryan: 9:32

And so they, and and then actually they I was prescriptive and said, this is the sort of thing I envision. And then they did that. Very thing. And I looked at it and I thought, this is exactly what I asked for. And it's beautiful and I do not like it for this book. So I

Jason Blitman: 9:48

Ha.

Patrick Ryan: 9:49

and said, thank you. You did exactly what I asked. And I, and now I know that this is not what we want. So they, we just moved into a few different directions. But this cover was designed by Anna Kotchman, who's done the last four or five Elizabeth Strout covers.

Jason Blitman: 10:06

Oh, cool.

Patrick Ryan: 10:07

and I love it so much. I just, I feel so fortunate to have it.

Jason Blitman: 10:11

So I realized that I'd never said, Patrick Ryan, welcome to Gay's Reading. So eight minutes in. Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Patrick Ryan: 10:20

I'm happy to be here.

Jason Blitman: 10:23

I know we just hit the ground running. Speaking of the Ann Patchett, I, she was a guest on gay's reading and I looked at the, I did a calculation'cause I was curious. She told me about this book 271 days ago.

Patrick Ryan: 10:42

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 10:42

have been waiting for this moment for 271 days. So you have a lot to live up to, so

Patrick Ryan: 10:50

That's, that

Jason Blitman: 10:51

turn your sound machines on.

Patrick Ryan: 10:54

it is a testament to, it's a partial testament to how long it took me to. To write it

Jason Blitman: 11:01

Yeah. This was at the point where I didn't, I got a galley not long after I talked to her. So it's also a testament to the journey that is the book publishing process. Okay. The book opens with character named Cal and his friend talking about how. We're each meant for a special thing. What do you think that is for you?

Patrick Ryan: 11:25

What's my special thing?

Jason Blitman: 11:26

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 11:29

Damn.

Jason Blitman: 11:32

You've had 10 minutes of warmup, Patrick?

Patrick Ryan: 11:35

I've had 271 days to

Jason Blitman: 11:37

Yes. Come on.

Patrick Ryan: 11:39

I did not. Anticipate that I, it's just the here's my special thing is creating a little safe space for myself that I can regularly crawl into to observe and write about the world. That my special thing, I think is always, since I was about 16, has been just realizing that was a place that I had the most control, where I had the most control and where there weren't any, I don't mean to be overly dramatic or anything, but there were, there wasn't any kind of bully in any sense in that little space. And I and right now it's this little space where I'm sitting, and this is just a gray slab of an IKEA table. In a corner, but this is this is my little golden spot where I just know that at least I can and if you don't have a contract and you're just writing a book and the world isn't necessarily waiting for, you've got a lot of time to be comfortable in your safe space.

Jason Blitman: 12:44

Yeah,

Patrick Ryan: 12:44

So I don't know if that's much of an answer, but yeah, I just realized early on, and it used to be drawing when I was about, when I was younger, it was I wanted to be an illustrator, an animator. And that was

Jason Blitman: 12:56

happened to that?

Patrick Ryan: 12:56

face. I think what happened was that I got into high school and I had two, there were only two art teachers in my high school, and they were married and I didn't like them. Personality clash. I don't even remember exactly why, but it was a personality clash. And at the same time my high school English teacher was really. Encouraging me. She was noticing that I was really liking all the creative writing assignments and she was pushing me. And I just remember this kind of shift away, and it happened right around, let's say during my 16th year where I realized no, and now I'm, and I was totally fine with it because I was just replacing it with something else.

Jason Blitman: 13:40

Would you ever say write a children's book where you both write it and illustrate it?

Patrick Ryan: 14:22

I have thought about that because, of course Anne has trailblazed that way in our friendship by coming up, writing these wonderful books.

Jason Blitman: 14:31

about her. I'm talking about you. You had asked once upon a time aspirations of being an illustrator,

Patrick Ryan: 14:36

yeah, I know. And she did ask, she said to me once, you should illustrate. I don't think I'm, that, I don't think I'm good enough

Jason Blitman: 14:42

what does that even mean? Have

Patrick Ryan: 14:45

Because I look at children's books,

Jason Blitman: 14:48

No.

Patrick Ryan: 14:48

at them, they're wonderful. Like I don't have the illustrations in children's books tell, have a narrative sensibility to them. That is fantastic. Usually there's and I don't have that in my wheelhouse, in my toolbox to each page. I just, I feel like. It's narratively tipping toward the next and toward the next. And I think there's a lot of subtleties going on there, and I just don't, I would not want to claim to, it would be like, it would be like if I said, oh, I wanna start writing poetry. I can write, it's no. Don't do it.

Jason Blitman: 15:21

Listen, this is, I like we're giving her too much airtime, like screw her. Who's she? But I do say all the time that when Anne was on the show, she said to me she said. You are the story you tell yourself. And so if you tell yourself you're not something, then you're not gonna be that thing. And I have taken that with me and I've shared that with other people. So I'm taking your friend of many years's advice and putting it and just giving it right back to you. But

Patrick Ryan: 15:49

love this.

Jason Blitman: 15:50

enough about her.

Patrick Ryan: 15:51

Yeah, she's gonna love that too. This is great. Thank you. Phoning it in for

Jason Blitman: 16:00

Phoning it in. Who does she think she is? But Jesus, come on you. You wrote a book about a special thing you didn't think people were gonna ask you about that. Okay? Go sleep on that and you'll come

Patrick Ryan: 16:10

but see,

Jason Blitman: 16:11

for the next one.

Patrick Ryan: 16:14

but yeah, but it's like that's a whole reason to write a book about other characters, other people doing other things

Jason Blitman: 16:20

Yes. Then you have to do press about it.

Patrick Ryan: 16:23

Yeah, I know. I know. Okay. I need a special thing.

Jason Blitman: 16:26

Speaking of, emmett is a, in the book, the term is a keeper, I believe, or maybe I've put the word keeper on him. He's never referred to as a hoarder.

Patrick Ryan: 16:39

Oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:40

He's a keeper of things. What would your thing be?

Patrick Ryan: 16:44

Oh yeah. That's really good. I just did not see that all these were gonna turn around and come

Jason Blitman: 16:51

Come on.

Patrick Ryan: 16:54

Certainly books from long ago, like the book that, the first book that I think got me started writer when I was 16. That came along at that time and got me. Realizing, oh my gosh. Writing can do. This was the collected stories of Mark Twain that my grandparents gave me on my 16th birthday. So that was how many, what's 60 minus 16?

Jason Blitman: 17:25

Uhhuh

Patrick Ryan: 17:25

40. 44.

Jason Blitman: 17:27

44 years ago. The other yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 17:29

44 years ago today.

Jason Blitman: 17:30

years ago today. Wow.

Patrick Ryan: 17:32

have that book on the, on my shelf. Like that's like that kind of thing. I wanna keep I used, before I moved to Manhattan, I had typewriters. I had about, I think I was up to about eight or nine and then I gave them all away except for one manual typewriter when I moved up here.

Jason Blitman: 17:49

Before we hit record, I, now I know that you've been in Manhattan for a very long time at this point. How was it hard to get rid of them?

Patrick Ryan: 17:57

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:57

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 17:58

But I. I did the best thing I could think to do. I gave each one away to a friend who probably didn't want it but I did, and a couple of them, I actually, it was down to the wire when I was moving and I actually left them on their front steps with a note typed into them just and for all I know, they just put them right into the recycling or something, but.

Jason Blitman: 18:22

Whatever.

Patrick Ryan: 18:23

That's, but that's where they went.

Jason Blitman: 18:25

That's a fun, like short story, someone who leaves typewriters with notes around the city.

Patrick Ryan: 18:31

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 18:32

The book is so deeply rooted in family, parents, and children relationships. What was your, what was that journey like for you? What was your relationship like with your family, or is what is your relationship like with your family?

Patrick Ryan: 18:47

I was the youngest of three and I was the only product of the second marriage. So my, I grew up with a brother and sister who every summer would go off to we were raised in Florida, but they went off to Virginia, Cape Canaveral, Merritt Island.

Jason Blitman: 19:05

oh, I grew up in a suburb of Fort Lauderdale.

Patrick Ryan: 19:08

Okay. Across the way. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:10

yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 19:11

And.

Jason Blitman: 19:11

so you were growing up in Florida.

Patrick Ryan: 19:13

Yeah. And so they would, they were, I was the youngest and they would go off to Virginia every summer. So I, which was interesting, just every summer I became an only kid for a couple of months and I had a good, and have a good relationship with my mother, who has always been very encouraging and had. Had the opposite kind of relationship with my father, And I always thought that was a balance that one could work with is one who encouraged one who absolutely did not better than some people get. And and they split up when I was 23, yeah, I know.'cause I would've thought by then that it might not have ever happened if it

Jason Blitman: 20:03

No weird is that my parents split up when I was 23.

Patrick Ryan: 20:07

Oh, so maybe you thought the same thing. That

Jason Blitman: 20:09

They should have long, they should have gotten divorced long before

Patrick Ryan: 20:12

I thought that, but they, since they hadn't, I thought really

Jason Blitman: 20:16

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 20:17

don't you wanna just start coasting? But no. And so that and then they, and they left Florida, so it's I don't go back, I don't keep up with really anybody who's still there. I have a brother in Florida but I don't, I'm not in much touch with him regularly. It, it was nothing like what's in the book in, in, in any way, shape or form. Yeah. There there's nothing in there that's from my. I don't, I, except for like little tiny tidbits that pop up in fiction. There's nothing, no big element. I don't think that's from my

Jason Blitman: 20:48

Do you think any of it was. I can't really think of another word other than this, and I think it's disgusting. Do you think there was an element of it that was aspirational? Were you writing a childhood that you wanted to have?

Patrick Ryan: 21:03

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 21:05

Mm.

Patrick Ryan: 21:05

That is a really excellent question, and the answer is yes. Yeah. It's a little bit like analysis, but uh, I, I,

Jason Blitman: 21:14

tell me about your relationship with.

Patrick Ryan: 21:16

I didn't anytime, I think anytime I write about fathers, Am writing about some other kind, so it's and I'm. Probably not gravitating toward writing about rotten ones. I don't know. It's an interesting question, but yeah. Aspirational. And there's certainly an element of the people in the book for as much as things fall apart on them and the, and all of the mistakes that some of them make. They also do some growth and figuring some things out and meaning comes in where a lot of questions were, and it's, to my thinking, it's of course it's fiction. So it's a little neater than life. It's a little more shaped, but it's it's much smoother than anything I've experienced. And that's probably true for a lot of people.

Jason Blitman: 22:18

Yeah. Even there are elements in the book that are specific to the generation and passed down through the, these generations. I will unpack that. Like I built things with my dad. I made a soapbox racer with my dad.

Patrick Ryan: 22:40

You did. Oh.

Jason Blitman: 22:42

Which comes up in the book, but I had a terrible dad. He's, he was not good at being a dad, but there was this generational thing of this is what we're supposed to do. Fathers are supposed to build things with their sons, and so let's do it. I was very lucky in that sometimes the thing we were building was like a puppet theater and he embraced the kid that I was, that didn't necessarily mean, I'm, I. I will say all the time he is a good guy, but a bad dad and, is a product of his generation and a product of his parenting. And, I like see the trauma lineage, but he just doesn't know how to tap into it himself. Whatever. I'm still removing myself from the situation'cause I don't need to be a part of it. But I I was like, oh really? Clocking this thing as, it was almost this weird dad trope of a time and I was like, Jesus, we were just doing this thing that was like supposed to be,

Patrick Ryan: 23:40

And new soapbox raced.

Jason Blitman: 23:42

yeah, I was a cub scout.

Patrick Ryan: 23:44

Yeah, that's cool. Okay

Jason Blitman: 23:45

it really wasn't though,

Patrick Ryan: 23:47

it wasn't well'cause

Jason Blitman: 23:48

because that wasn't what I wanted,

Patrick Ryan: 23:50

Oh, I got you. Yeah. Yeah. You wanted it to be in the puppet theater. You

Jason Blitman: 23:53

Exactly. Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 23:55

I we had I didn't do soapbox racers, although there's a scene that was in the book up until the penultimate draft, a memory of Everett and Cal building the Racer in the book. It's just referred to as a memory, but there was the actual flashback and it was the whole thing about building it and the racer. And it got cut. And it is an outtake in the uk the Waterstone special edition

Jason Blitman: 24:22

Oh,

Patrick Ryan: 24:23

that, that

Jason Blitman: 24:24

How funny that I, that's exactly what I

Patrick Ryan: 24:26

I know I'll tell you that my dad, we had balsa wood. Race cars was our version of the, of soapbox races, and they were about that big. And you would get a block of balsa wood and you carve your car and paint it and they gave you the wheels and then you would enter this competition at the mall and it was basically like, like hot wheels, what about whichever one gets to the bottom? I remember my dad saying. Getting out his drill. And when we were almost done with this car and drilling holes in the bottom of the front of it, and I said, what are you doing? And he said, do you wanna win?

Jason Blitman: 25:01

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 25:02

I said, yeah. And he put weights in it

Jason Blitman: 25:06

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 25:06

and he covered'em with wood putty. So he cheated and then we went to the mall and my car zipped down to the front and they picked it up. The judges picked it up and they said, you're disqualified. For, because you put weights in there. And I said, and I was so naive, I remember saying, can I still win? And they just laughed and they said no. And my father was standing right there. Yeah. And he ne we never talked about it. He never, he was, he was moving on. I got the car back, we went home. We never talked about that. And I thought that was such an interesting thing. What was the lesson, what was the takeaway there? There's so many, there's so many little things layered in

Jason Blitman: 25:46

I know. We could talk about that for an hour

Patrick Ryan: 25:48

I

Jason Blitman: 25:48

unpack that one little detail. Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 25:50

But I love that you soapbox race.

Jason Blitman: 25:53

What, it's so interesting, so many themes in this book. One of them to me was just about expectations,

Patrick Ryan: 26:00

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:01

fitting into a mold. And I think all of this sort of falls into that category too, of just, what are, what do you expect of your child? What do you expect of your parent? And then there's what do you expect of a partner? But there's something that comes up about. Time and our older and younger versions of ourselves. And I'm curious, when we're recording, today is your birthday, so there, this is adding like a special layer to this question, which is like sort of an accident. But I think, whether or not you think it's nice for you is a different thing. but you said this turning point, this journey for you started when you were 16. What do you think your 16-year-old self. Think of this version of your life.

Patrick Ryan: 26:46

Hmm. Um, I think my 16-year-old self would be absolutely thrilled. With this version of my life, I don't mean to sound crass or anything, but when I was 16, I knew full well that I, number one, was gay. Number two, didn't have an interest in raising kids. That Buck was stopping with me and. I, but part of me assumed, and this goes back to what you're saying expectations, that is a huge part of this of the book. And I think of any human story expectations are such a trap. And I expected that I would probably end up doing those things. Though I didn't, I don't know what I just I didn't have any evidence. Of trailblazers. I, in my small town, I wasn't aware

Jason Blitman: 27:41

yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 27:42

of things of possibilities that, that anybody who had made it through and was, say a gay person who was, we didn't even say out, I don't think back then, but was some kind of anomaly, some kind like, had some special thing going on that one couldn't aspire to.

Jason Blitman: 28:03

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 28:03

Some circumstance or something. And sometimes it was something very undesirable, like something going on that was like I wouldn't want that, but I admire them because of prosecution or something, but

Jason Blitman: 28:13

Yeah, no. My husband and I say all the time how we don't have an example that is a, or we don't have multiple examples, sort of one generation above us. We're all figuring it out as we go.

Patrick Ryan: 28:31

Yeah, that's true. And I don't really mind that. But it is an interesting thing to realize about yourself when you're thinking about on your own trajectory and the emotional through line of your life, the arc of your life not having. Mentors not having or having mentors in specifically, but not overall. I always thought of the, like the classic mentor I think for me would be someone who was gay and who would do all the things that I think are the way one should live once. And no one that, no one, I'm not even doing that. It's it's an expectation thing

Jason Blitman: 29:15

Yes.

Patrick Ryan: 29:16

And we're just figuring it out as we go but I also wonder if everybody isn't doing that anyway, because even if you're surrounded by examples and mentors, you're still probably figuring it out as you go, right?

Jason Blitman: 29:25

sure. And I think that at the very least, anyone who's thinking independently, that's true, right?'cause we all are individuals and we're not trying to fit into a mold. We're trying to. Do our thing and maybe be inspired by those we see around us or before us or whatever.

Patrick Ryan: 29:43

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 29:44

There is a moment in the book where a parent threatens to send a kid to their room without dessert, to which he asks, okay what's for dessert?

Patrick Ryan: 29:58

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 29:59

What would be the thing for Patrick that says, oh, I don't want to get in trouble. I want dessert. What would keep you, what would make you behave?

Patrick Ryan: 30:11

Telling me that I couldn't play pinball for

Jason Blitman: 30:13

no. What's the dessert?

Patrick Ryan: 30:15

what's a dessert? Oh.

Jason Blitman: 30:17

if mom said, oh, we're having this for dessert,

Patrick Ryan: 30:20

Gosh.

Jason Blitman: 30:21

say screw that. Send me to my room. Or no I don't wanna go to my room. I wanna stay.

Patrick Ryan: 30:26

I might choose the solitude, but uh, key lime,

Jason Blitman: 30:30

are you not a sweets person?

Patrick Ryan: 30:31

No, I am very much um, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:34

key lime pie.

Patrick Ryan: 30:35

you, yeah. Key lime pie.

Jason Blitman: 30:37

I love key lime pie.

Patrick Ryan: 30:39

Almost any pie. Um. You know, Basically

Jason Blitman: 30:44

It wouldn't have taken much,

Patrick Ryan: 30:46

everything but cheesecake. I'm not crazy about cheesecake, but everything else I think

Jason Blitman: 30:51

but even then if it had some, if it had, key lime curd on top, then maybe,

Patrick Ryan: 30:55

some cherries. I would yeah, that's, that would keep me in line,

Jason Blitman: 30:58

okay. Wait though, back to the other thing. Pinball. You're a pinball person.

Patrick Ryan: 31:02

Oh, yeah. That's all I really want to be doing with my time. It's, and thankfully, talk about Lucky Strokes in life. My, my partner of almost 26 years shares this. So we have built entire trips around just pinball locations and

Jason Blitman: 31:23

I,

Patrick Ryan: 31:23

play for hours and hours.

Jason Blitman: 31:26

I have, oh my God.

Patrick Ryan: 31:28

I think your radio your podcast interviewers can't see that your jaw has dropped.

Jason Blitman: 31:34

I just am. I like, I want like where are you traveling to? What's the journey like? Is the, aren't they all the same? I don't you just bang on the thing. I am, like I, I wanna, when I, next time I'm in New York, we're gonna go to Barcade together and you're gonna show me the ways, because.

Patrick Ryan: 31:52

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 31:54

I don't wanna say don't get it, but who has the quarters

Patrick Ryan: 31:58

I don't mean for this to sound braggy, but if you get to a certain skill level, your money goes a lot further.

Jason Blitman: 32:06

between Say more. What do you mean?

Patrick Ryan: 32:09

We noticed that once we started playing more and we started actually getting better, and then we'd go play for an hour and a half and we'd walk out and realize that

Jason Blitman: 32:17

You've only

Patrick Ryan: 32:18

two or$3. Was like Games because each game was lasting 25, 30 minutes. Sometimes if it's going

Jason Blitman: 32:24

Sure. Is there like a favorite machine that you've played that's themed in a specific way?

Patrick Ryan: 32:29

Oh, sure. Yeah. This is so nerdy and ultra nerdy. My answer is, and I actually just said it in yo to speak, but the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, those are our two favorite current two favorite. Pinball machines. We've gone to, Asbury Park is our biggest destination. They have one of the best places in the country. And we once went to Vegas just for the sole purpose of playing pinball

Jason Blitman: 32:50

Really?

Patrick Ryan: 32:51

and going into the desert. We'd never been to the desert, but, and then we went and then and basically whenever we're going somewhere that's after we secure our lodging, then we. Go onto the internet and see if there's what's nearby.'cause usually plate, there are some other nerds out there who are gonna say, yeah, there are two machines there.

Jason Blitman: 33:11

So it's not the other way around though. You don't seek out the pinball machines first and then say, okay, I guess we're gonna go to

Patrick Ryan: 33:18

We

Jason Blitman: 33:19

city that you've never heard of before.

Patrick Ryan: 33:21

yeah. If it's if it's a big place. Yeah. There's a place in I can't remember the name of the town right now, but there's a place in Ohio that we just found out about. It's only open for something like three hours a day and it has 300 machines. And we just sat there watching this video like, like kids watching a pop star or something was like, we have to go, we have to go. We have to get there.

Jason Blitman: 33:42

so cute.

Patrick Ryan: 33:43

So that's where we wanna go next

Jason Blitman: 33:45

Okay. I have so many questions that are like, so not. Relevant to this conversation.

Patrick Ryan: 33:53

book. Ah, I know.

Jason Blitman: 33:54

Do you have a giant poster of like pinball wizard from the who it? Are you do you really lean in or is it just do you own a machine?

Patrick Ryan: 34:05

no, but that we have a big dream of, one day not living in this city and, Having a place and having a basement and having as many machines as we could fit into the basement. We also have this fantasy of this would ever happen, of moving to some small town. Opening up an arcade that was like an arcade coffee shop used bookshop,

Jason Blitman: 34:28

I have tendonitis in my knee. I get gout sometimes. I, I need to do activities that are stress free on the body and I would need to do some hand exercises, I think for pinball, but,

Patrick Ryan: 34:41

yeah. Forearm

Jason Blitman: 34:43

yeah, Uhhuh.

Patrick Ryan: 34:43

Good to go.

Jason Blitman: 34:44

I'm not really a big video gamer, and I played Mario Kart with my husband the other day, and my thumb was so crampy for an hour afterwards. I was like, this is absurd. One of my favorite lines in the book and one of my favorite sentences that I think I've maybe ever heard in my life

Patrick Ryan: 35:04

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 35:05

is, we aren't boops the daisy at the moment.

Patrick Ryan: 35:16

Oh, I love that. I love it

Jason Blitman: 35:19

boops a daisy

Patrick Ryan: 35:20

You could have, let me pick 5,000 sentences and I think that's the last one I would've gone for

Jason Blitman: 35:28

but it's the best.

Patrick Ryan: 35:29

We are, boom. Yes. What's his name? Mr. Is the old man who shows up at the dance hall and wants to boom sy.

Jason Blitman: 35:37

What does the boops a daisy look like? I didn't Google that. I did listen to where or when before we started, but I did not Google the Boops A Daisy.

Patrick Ryan: 35:47

Let me just mention parenthetically, if you haven't heard the Supreme's cover of where or when, I think it was 1964. Treat yourself to that. That is so fun. Boom, sy. Okay, so I did a lot of course, research internet dives when I was writing about. There's a, there's an informal dance hall in the

Jason Blitman: 36:08

you say that in quotation marks, do you mean like you're, you consider Googling to not be true research or were you saying it in quotation marks because you actually knew all of it already? Because you're a professional dancer that we don't actually know about.

Patrick Ryan: 36:22

Oh, the latter. No,

Jason Blitman: 36:24

Oh, perfect. All right, then stand up, push your camera back and show me the boobs of Daisy.

Patrick Ryan: 36:30

Oh my gosh.

Jason Blitman: 36:31

You're doing your research on, YouTube and the very official places

Patrick Ryan: 36:35

yes. All the little internet grass hopping. And and I believe that was real. I believe that it was a, there, there were some that I made up. There's one where somebody says, put on something we can sweetie pie too. And that's not a dance. I, that, that was a name that I called my grandmother and I just. I just threw that in. It's okay, there, I'm gonna make up a dance called the Sweetie Pie. But I think that Boom Sy was an actual dance, and it was from the twenties, I believe, and it was something out of that character. He's just a walkin, walkon,

Jason Blitman: 37:09

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 37:10

Something out of his era.

Jason Blitman: 37:12

If it is not real, I'm gonna be devastated. I

Patrick Ryan: 37:15

I think it is real. I think it is real, but thinking I'm almost positive that the booms is real.

Jason Blitman: 37:22

Okay. There

Patrick Ryan: 37:25

right now. I love that.

Jason Blitman: 37:28

so funny, I think I like circled it. I underlined it. I, wrote in the book. I think this is my favorite sentence ever.

Patrick Ryan: 37:36

I

Jason Blitman: 37:36

you talk about a few times in the book what I have written in my notes as the look tm,

Patrick Ryan: 37:44

Ooh.

Jason Blitman: 37:45

With a little trademark. So the look as in like the gay look

Patrick Ryan: 37:49

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 37:50

in the book. Can you describe that? Can you show it? Can you,

Patrick Ryan: 37:55

I show it?

Jason Blitman: 37:56

you know where it comes from? Where do we think the look comes from?

Patrick Ryan: 38:00

One thing I hope WII was conveying is that, so it's, we should clarify, for readers or for listeners that the, we're talking about a character in the first, in the 1930s and in the forties and the fifties and the sixties being completely in the closet and just going through life. And occasionally passing other people. And so what I was hoping to get across, I hope this translated into the book, is that the look, maybe a small fraction of the look is I'm attracted to you. Are you attracted to me? But really what the look is about is just, are you like me? I am like me. Are you like it's not about hooking up.'cause I'm sure there was hooking up in the thirties and forties and fifties

Jason Blitman: 38:54

It wasn't the, it wasn't the eye contact. Three steps turn around and Are you looking at me still? Look, no, it was the,

Patrick Ryan: 39:02

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 39:02

Because that's more of the, let's go find a dark corner somewhere. And

Patrick Ryan: 39:06

Yes. But I would say even that though it was that but it was the other kind where you've had the look and then you pass and maybe you do look back and the other person is looking back, but it's not. Of, of a cast to try to catch something. It's just more confirmation. Yep. And then you both go back to your lives and nothing. That was, anyway, that was my experience when I was in the eighties. But but I was just imagining and then basing it on, things that I've read and people I'd spoken to. But that look is mostly about just fellow traveler.

Jason Blitman: 39:42

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 39:44

I I see you. I think I think maybe we are in this together even if we're never gonna have a conversation.

Jason Blitman: 39:49

Sure. Fellow traveler and also, feeling seen and being seen and seeing. It's, we see each other. I see you. Something that I'm shocked has not come up yet because I love talking about this woo bullshit as I call it. It. Is the sort of, is the clairvoyance element in the book

Patrick Ryan: 40:07

yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Jason Blitman: 40:13

is you, is this a topic that intrigued you? Is it something that you're, like, do you go to a psychic or a medium? Do you, what is your journey with that element?

Patrick Ryan: 40:24

I I don't. Go to one. I personally I don't have an interest in attending a seance say, or that sort of thing. I am very, I've always been very interested in how someone will die and then the people who are grieving will have some sort of dream. That's what most interests me is the things that happen in dreams because we will then never know if you're the type to believe in the possibility of that, you never know was that, and you probably will think, no, that was that person coming to me and they just came to me in the dream instead of my waking life. Or did I do that because I needed that? And either answer is fine, really. But I've always been really interested in that. I've had a few experiences like everybody has, where something like this has happened and I just, even if it wasn't a dream, that's usually what it's with me in a dream. And I just think I didn't come up with that. I just don't think I came up with that conversation that

Jason Blitman: 41:28

Right.

Patrick Ryan: 41:29

I just dreamed having with that person who's dead. That kind of thing. That said I have this sort of unwritten down mental list of things that I don't like to do in fiction and that I try to do as little as possible. And as a reader I don't really like them. And one of them is like woo stuff and ghosty angel stuff and ghosts and dreams and all that stuff. So it is interesting when you find yourself. Doing the thing that you didn't think you were gonna be doing. Here's what happened with her. This, I wanted, when I was putting together this character of Becky, and I think of her as the good heart of the book because she is the character who is least conflicted in every sense, I think. And she is the one who has the most unusual thing going on. She's the one who's got the thing going on that the world, if they would bother, if they bothered to look in her direction, they're gonna go and she's got it together more than anybody. I think I wanted to, I gave her this memory of remembering someone speaking to her from the afterlife when she was eight years old. And that was the first thing I wrote about her was she's sitting, she's just sitting reading a book in a diner. She remembers when she was a kid that this man spoke to her. It was a guy who died and the guy told her what basically where his body was and then she told that to everybody and everybody freaked out. But it turned out to be true. And they did find the guy there, but then no one, it didn't amount to anything other than the beginning of her being thought of as an oddball. But I wanted that for her. And then I just thought early on. Really early on with her, I thought, I'm gonna make it real.'Cause I thought I'm just gonna hedge and never weigh in. But then I thought, I'm gonna make it real and just see where that goes.

Jason Blitman: 43:29

Yeah, and listen it, I would argue that it's not really woo in the book. I think it's so honest, and I think we've all had those moments of whether it's a dream or something has come to us that. We just can't explain and it's, maybe like a whisper of magical realism that's not, it's, it is not this sort of overwhelming there we don't like then see a parade of ghosts at the end or anything like that. It's not that.

Patrick Ryan: 43:57

No. And I was really interested and. Amazed by how much, how important that aspect of it became to the overall story. There was, there were some significant things that I didn't anticipate fitting together. Trying not to give away any big spoiler if

Jason Blitman: 44:17

No.

Patrick Ryan: 44:18

But there were, when I was establishing that for her, what I really wanted was to give her something unique and I wanted to give her something that her future husband was. I'm gonna have a really hard time for years and years wrapping his head around. But deciding to make it real opened up some doors that I di I didn't anticipate,

Jason Blitman: 44:40

Yeah. It, it's

Patrick Ryan: 44:41

and it really helped with the emotional I'm really big on emotional through lines for characters and the emotional arc of the book and it played into that so much.

Jason Blitman: 44:48

Yeah. Speaking of Becky, speaking of emotional through lines, there's this really beautiful moment where we learn about the map of her life. On the map of her life. There were plenty of pins where she'd been happy. And as we're getting close to the end of this conversation, I'm curious, what are some of those pin marks on your map?

Patrick Ryan: 45:08

Moving. I would say one of them was moving to Richmond of all things because when I was outta grad school, it was a year outta grad school and I was trying to figure out what next, and I had friends who had moved there ahead of me and I visited them and it was, this is like the character of Margaret in the book who is raised in a tiny town and then goes to Columbus and Columbus is like New York or Paris or Richmond was like a mecca. When I moved there, it's a moving there. That was a pinpoint where I,'cause I had done that myself

Jason Blitman: 45:42

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 45:43

and

Jason Blitman: 45:43

what point where what was that part of your life?

Patrick Ryan: 45:46

It was one year out of, it was one year out outta grad school. So I was really trying to land on my feet and I, and then landed on them by becoming an adjunct for a few years. And that was, we all know what that's like. But then even more so was moving to New York. Which I did at 33 with no job. I think I had$4,000 saved up and I had no job. And everyone, except for my mother and my therapist advised me against it unsolicited. I didn't go around asking anybody if they thought it was a good idea, but I was a bartender at the time and so everybody. I knew a thousand people and everybody was just weighing in and it was just astounding. And I thought, my gosh, this is so the opposite of what in the movies and the books where follow your dream kid. It was just like everybody, my father had infected everybody and they, everybody was just saying, bad idea. Don't do it. Don't do it. It won't work out. And having done that, and then I met my partner, my life partner within a year of moving there.

Jason Blitman: 46:53

Oh my God.

Patrick Ryan: 46:54

And we've got our 26th anniversary coming up in a, three days after the book comes out, this Buckeye comes out and those are the big pins.

Jason Blitman: 47:03

That.

Patrick Ryan: 47:04

And then I would say meeting Ann, that was, that happened in 2000 and that was just something that made sense to me on every level. As we got to know each other.

Jason Blitman: 47:13

Yeah. Have you since learned Italian?

Patrick Ryan: 47:16

I have not.

Jason Blitman: 47:17

No.

Patrick Ryan: 47:18

I have also not been back to Italy. I've had no

Jason Blitman: 47:20

That's fair. That's fair. That's fair. Okay. In our last two minutes together, I was just thinking about this because, and I asked you a version of this question already but I, I. Feel like I have, I'm a fake journalist. I'm not a, this is not journalism, but I have to take advantage of the fact that there is conversation about a big birthday in the book and you happen to be celebrating this big birthday today while

Patrick Ryan: 47:49

Oh, it's the same birthday.

Jason Blitman: 47:50

is the same birthday.

Patrick Ryan: 47:53

I hadn't even thought of that.

Jason Blitman: 47:55

And so this is very moving to me, and so I asked you this question about your 16-year-old self. Let's say you were to open a letter from your 8-year-old self today. What do you think it would say?

Patrick Ryan: 48:13

Oh, it would say something really ridiculous, like it would assume great riches. An insane amassing of wealth and generosity and like a big statue of me as some benevolent force who built orphanages. And I don't know what but it would've been big, lofty goals of at eight years old. At eight years old. Actually, it might have been. Outer space.

Jason Blitman: 48:47

Yeah.

Patrick Ryan: 48:48

I might've still been in my astronaut mindset because I grew up, I watched the moon launch from the foot of my driveway when I was four years old and grew up with all of that right there. Eight years old, it might've been that.

Jason Blitman: 49:00

say eight'cause that's the age in the book.

Patrick Ryan: 49:02

Yeah I'm not, this may seem so ridiculous, but it never occurred to me until you've asked me this, that the book ends on her 60th birthday.

Jason Blitman: 49:11

Yeah, I know. I feel very special that I get to talk to you today. This is a, it's a big day for all of us. Patrick Ryan, thank you so much for being here,

Patrick Ryan: 49:21

Thank you. I had a wonderful time, Jason. This is a highlight of my week

Jason Blitman: 49:26

Fantastic. Everyone. Go get your copy of Buckeye. It is Out now. Wherever you get your books, I am so excited for you and for the people to read it and cry just like I did at the end of it. Robbie Alaine, welcome to Gays Reading. Do we what?

Rabih Alameddine: 49:47

do we read?

Jason Blitman: 49:49

Listen you, I read that you identify as many things, an Arab, an American, Lebanese, an atheist, a soccer player, gay, but you most identify these days as a grump.

Rabih Alameddine: 50:03

Yes I'm grumpy. I am definitely grumpy. I actually say that I now transcend being gay. I hate everybody.

Jason Blitman: 50:12

Did you, did it take a while to come to terms with this fact?

Rabih Alameddine: 50:17

With the grumpiness? No grumpiness came really naturally. It is just, and I did not have to, I always joke that when I was gay, I had to come out when I was grumpy. I did not have to come out. Everybody already knew I

Jason Blitman: 50:30

Oh my God, that's so funny. I have a mug. I'm not in my home right now, but I do have a mug that on one side says. I'm a little bit grumpy. And then on the other side it says I'm very grumpy. So you can face it to the camera depending on what the, what mood you're in. So I'm, I am feeling you a little bit today.

Rabih Alameddine: 50:51

This guy standing right next to me,

Jason Blitman: 50:53

you are you really identify as grumpy. That he's sitting right there.

Rabih Alameddine: 50:57

It's a talent, I should say.

Jason Blitman: 51:00

On your list, even though it might not be publicly listed, I know you also identify as a reader.

Rabih Alameddine: 51:08

Oh God, yes. Oh, actually I think it's listed in many places. I

Jason Blitman: 51:13

I mean in that list of, leading up to grump, it's not there, but I'm sure it's in plenty other places.

Rabih Alameddine: 51:18

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 51:19

So you identify as a reader. In fact, you have said that reading and writing isn't separated for you. So what are you reading now? What have you read recently? What are you reading? Tell me.

Rabih Alameddine: 51:30

Good question. I just finished, let's just say talk about the last great gay book that I wrote. It's a Dutch book by this guy called Gerran Bucker and it's called the Hairdresser's Son. I think it, it probably comes out now, maybe last week or comes out, next week. And it's ner it's a very slow boil novel about this guy who's. Middle aged, shall we say, he's younger than I am, so I can't say he's old, but he's middle aged and the how he, he has this hairdressing or a barbershop basically, and he cuts hair and the whole novel is about how he lives his life. And I thought it was a stunner. Stunner. I'm not making it exciting, it really is wonderful.

Jason Blitman: 52:20

Yeah. Listen, I am not one of those people who reads the blurb of the book. I just like to know. Cool. Okay. It's a slow burn. It's queer and it's great. That's all I need.

Rabih Alameddine: 52:31

And also it has a weird sort of sexual obsession that I don't usually get creeped out. With, it's like I've lived long enough to have seen and maybe practiced quite a few. This one creeped me out and it was like, oh my God. I'm, it's like being creeped out is exciting. Can you imagine that? But yes.

Jason Blitman: 52:56

No, that's interesting. To feel like you're reading something maybe that you've never read before is cool.

Rabih Alameddine: 53:04

yeah. It just it's. It's a small section of the book, but when he gets down to that let's just say I wanted to good. My loins.

Jason Blitman: 53:14

Noted. That's good to know. So that's the hairdresser's son. I will have to check that out. So again, you talked about reading and writing, not being separated for you, and you started reading very young. What are some of the books that inspired you as a young person?

Rabih Alameddine: 53:29

We had to define young. I started reading probably at the age of three, two to three. I,

Jason Blitman: 53:35

like great expectations

Rabih Alameddine: 53:37

no, I started with, Superman, Batman. I've written another essay where I talk about wanting to be Superman or wanting to marry Superman. But I read every, all the comics and I, read them in three languages.

Jason Blitman: 53:52

Oh wow.

Rabih Alameddine: 53:53

or I said, I looked at the pictures in three languages. The first sort of adult book I read was probably, I read, we don't read much here in terms of Enid blight, but I read a lot of Enid blight the Secret seven and I think it's called the Famous Five. Over here they'd be comparable to the Hardy Boys and the Nancy. But those were a big deal. I think the first sort of book that I read was Lorna Dune. And I can't remember who wrote that. Not too long after I started reading. The great Harold Robbins and Jacqueline Suzanne and Sidney Sheldon. And I basically was reading what my mother was reading, so that was the age of maybe 12, 13. And I can tell you there is no writer that is as good for 13-year-old boys as much as Harold Robbins'cause there was so much sex in it. To this day we are talking, 50 years later, I still remember scenes where, he's on the massage table and she shoves two fingers up his butt and it was like, whoa. That's literature.

Jason Blitman: 55:04

And that was the moment you knew you wanted to become a writer,

Rabih Alameddine: 55:08

Absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 55:10

the things you could put on the page.

Rabih Alameddine: 55:12

Exactly. Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 55:14

So you were a big reader, but what do you think it was that sort of transcended, that made you want to write, if not the fingers up the butt?

Rabih Alameddine: 55:22

The fingers up the butt had a lot to do with it. I wanted to write that. I remember telling my father at four that, he asked me what I wanted to do and I grew up and I said I wanted to be a writer and I was. To me, writing was about writing Batman comics telling stories, basically.

Jason Blitman: 55:41

Yeah.

Rabih Alameddine: 55:42

Don't know, it took me a long time to write, but the book that probably did it for me was vs. Nial. The House for Mr. Bi was, I read it when I was alone in, boarding school in England. And it changed my life. It's like you could say so many things did, but for me that book was a

Jason Blitman: 56:04

A turning point.

Rabih Alameddine: 56:05

turning point.

Jason Blitman: 56:06

That was what that hand gesture did to me.

Rabih Alameddine: 56:08

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 56:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Rabih Alameddine: 56:09

It was about this again, regular South Asian family in Trinidad and their life, and that was the first time. I had come across for lack of a better word, now we use this, we use brown. But for me, at that time it was, third world people that our life and our story can be told. And it is just as beautiful as, or as boring as other people's stories, so NAL was the first to do that for me. Then I went, through my gay face and so colorant and. All these writers did it for me, but it was Nepal first. And then in that book, he says something that stuck with me for a long time and that he said that he knew he was a writer because as he was reading, he was constantly critiquing how the writer was doing something. So that he was reading like a writer. And I realized that I've always done that. I have notes on the books and post-Its and everything. I've always done that where read, like, how would I do this? And the funny thing is that some 20 years later I was reading another book of his, of nal, it was called Away in the World, and he goes back over. The same material I've once joked that Nal won the Nobel Prize on one book. He kept reading the same book over and over and over and over brilliantly. But he said the same thing about reading and being a writer. And I was 36. I had just gotten dumped by the one who shall remain in English. And. I was reading this sentence and I just started crying, and I knew, that this is what, I've been suppressing for so long. So I sat down. I never forget it. I sat down and I wrote my first novel in about eight weeks to 10 weeks. I, because I had it in mind, I knew what I was doing. I knew what I wanted to do. I was in my mid to late thirties. So it wasn't, it was something that I thought about, but I, with the help of drugs, I was able to say up really late and write this book, and it got published. It just went through slush files and got published.

Jason Blitman: 58:27

Yeah. Wow, that's amazing.

Rabih Alameddine: 58:29

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 58:30

You talk about. All the ways you identify, you talk about, you've alluded to different stages of your life, publishing a book in the grand scheme of things, relatively later compared to some other folks these At this moment, what do you think the chapter of your life that you're in right now would be called?

Rabih Alameddine: 58:48

How about for my eyeglasses or looking for my reading glasses while they're on my face? Hmm. It's

Jason Blitman: 58:57

That's so good.

Rabih Alameddine: 58:59

seem to be baffled these days. What did I do with this? I, I. I admit openly, that life always beats me. But I think it's amazing that I lose everything. I once found, couldn't find my keys, my house keys, and I looked in the, and I found them in my freezer. How they got there, who knows,

Jason Blitman: 59:23

am impressed that you even got there.

Rabih Alameddine: 59:27

I got there three days later and I was going to, get something out of the freezer and it was like, oh, my car keys, my house keys. Yes, you so yes, that would be the chapter of my life

Jason Blitman: 59:39

The best part is of course, the while they're on my face.

Rabih Alameddine: 59:44

on my face. Yeah, I've done that. I've looked for my phone while I'm talking on the phone to

Jason Blitman: 59:48

I think that is a very common phenomenon. I think so many of us have done this.

Rabih Alameddine: 59:52

Yeah. And I think so, so my, that chapter, this chapter of my life will be both unique and universal.

Jason Blitman: 59:59

exactly right. Exactly. You are of the people,

Rabih Alameddine: 1:00:02

I am of the people, when you look at me, you see the people

Jason Blitman: 1:00:05

right? You understand? Okay. Speaking of titles, if there was an award for best book titles, I think the book that you have coming out just might win. I want to hear about the true, true story of Raja the gullible. And his mother. What is your elevator pitch for this book?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:00:25

Oh God. That tells you how unprepared I am for these things. Talk to me in six months I will have the perfect pitch for the book after it's way, past its time to,

Jason Blitman: 1:00:35

So gimme the in. What's the imperfect pitch

Rabih Alameddine: 1:00:37

Oh it's basically the story is about this 63-year-old, 64-year-old gay man who all of a sudden has to his mother moves in with him. And they go through crisises together, and they want to, the surprising thing about the book is that he doesn't kill his mother. And they have a strange, loving relationship. Someone asked me what one word could I describe this book? And I would to say love, but it's really devotion that they're so devoted to each other. Even though they can't stop bickering. But it's also about how we deal with trauma these days. A lot of times we, in my opinion he goes through a trauma. Like all of us we've had different things in our past and some of us dwell on it, and some of us, don't want to discuss it anymore. And, and I think. But we've come to this point in life right now where there seems to be a standard response to, to trauma that I find troubling. That, we, this is how you deal with trauma and we are also different and our traumas are so different that to have a prescribed thing is just, ridiculous. And see this is not a one line pitch.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:02

No, you gave the one-liner and now you're digging into maybe where it came from, so I appreciate that.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:02:08

and the big thing for me is this whole thing of forgiveness. Particularly as a, when I say gay soccer player, it's always interesting to me that the victims are always asked to forgive. Because it'll make us feel better if we forgive. I can tell you that it never made me forgive, get better in anything, but maybe it's because I don't forgive so easily. But I always wanted to deal with this whole idea of like, why, it's like we've gotten to the point where we tell a woman who was raped that If you can forgive your rapist, you'll be okay. It's like, why the fuck would I wanna forgive him? We got to the point where we tell kids, and I love it, because we need to help. We tell gay kids that, it gets better, honey. Why aren't we talking to the bullies? Why are we talking to the victims? Why does the victim have to adjust to how the bully behaves as opposed to, fuck the bully.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:11

Yeah. What would you say to a bully? Maybe as an adult right now, having lived your life and you had a kid what do you think you would say to them?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:03:19

See, the trouble is I would as a certified gay man, I would resort to, campy retorts.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:27

Yeah.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:03:28

never amount to anything. You poor thing. But no, see, the trouble is, and I, and this is where I actually think there's a problem, which is that we psychoanalyze everything whether we want to or not. It's like, why is the bully doing this? Why? And just like, why don't we just say stop, Stop.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:48

Yeah. I wonder if it's that easy.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:03:52

I don't know either. But the trouble is we actually never try it almost. It's always about, how do you prepare the victim for the bullying that's to come? It's probably not as easy because we live in a society that actually bullying, we elect presidents who are bullies basically, and then people, let's not get into that. It gets me.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:14

No, but I think you're, what you're describing is has the history of what you're describing has led us to today

Rabih Alameddine: 1:04:23

Yes and again, this is the thing is that we always talk about how to survive this as opposed to how the fuck do you change this, and that is a big sort of shift. Luckily for me, I was not much into being bullied, even as a young boy. I, my tongue was sharp and, you don't want to fucking upset me and I just did not accept it. That doesn't, most we, I'm not suggesting that, those who accepted are, maybe I just never met true bullies or whatever, but no, no. We are trained from childhood to accept. How the dominant culture views the world. We are trained as gay boys, whether we know it or not, to accept that, violence is going to be part of our life and we should do whatever we can to avoid it.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:21

And so in the book, is that unpacked at all? Is that some, yeah.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:05:27

The trouble for me is that I don't like shall we say didactic books,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:32

Uhhuh.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:05:33

but what he has to go through Is I important to me and how he deals with it. As an older man, when people keep telling him that, oh, you should look into it, and it's like, why should I?

Jason Blitman: 1:05:45

Did writing the book reframe your, some of your own thoughts on devotion?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:05:50

Some of it. Some of it, yes. Al a book always helps in some things. But it wasn't, it's not therapeutic in the way that most people think. Writing is writing for me is not therapeutic. I call it the UN therapy. I go to therapy to work on problems exacerbated by my writing. What it can be is cathartic. It can, light a fire where a fire was dormant. And that's why my therapist comes in, but,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:18

so writing can be cathartic and it, so it ignites that thing that you then can take to your therapist to, for it to be therapeutic.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:06:26

yes. My and my, luckily for me, my psychiatrist has been with me for 24 years. So every time I start, something goes, oh, you said that, three years ago, and you said that when you started your other book and.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:39

Perfect. We have to talk about the elephant in the room, which is of course your incredible author photo.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:06:49

Oh, I was gonna thought you were gonna talk about my virginity.'cause that's the elephant in the room. Um, yes, Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:56

Wait, why, how say, why do you say that?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:07:00

That's the rumors that I'm a virgin and I keep telling people no I'm not.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:04

Okay, you heard it here. Everyone, Robbie is not a virgin.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:07:08

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:09

But now let's talk about your author photos.'cause not only is the one for this book, fantastic, but you go onto your website, you have all of these incredible photos. What inspired these?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:07:21

Paintings mostly, most of them are based on painting.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:23

Of course, but what inspired you to have them?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:07:26

The guy who does them is an artist by the name of Oliver Waso, and we've been friends for a while. He uses photos and works paintings into the photos. The first portrait he did of me, he did it as a portrait and it's actually it's hanging, one is hanging here. Hold on. Do you see it?

Jason Blitman: 1:07:49

Oh my God. That's the one that is on your website and that is incredible

Rabih Alameddine: 1:07:54

There's also a portrait of me in the back

Jason Blitman: 1:07:56

back. Yeah. So fun

Rabih Alameddine: 1:07:58

But because I have lots of friends who are artists, but this one is actually hanging in, in museum, I think in Louisiana somewhere. Yes, there is a museum in Louisiana.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:09

You are featured in.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:08:10

yes, exactly. Do they need anything else? No. so it was, just taken as a, regular portrait. He has a series of portraits of friends, just like that said. Of course, none of them is as fabulous as this

Jason Blitman: 1:08:26

Of course not

Rabih Alameddine: 1:08:27

And so for the annual of history, I jokingly they said, we need an author photo. And I jokingly sent them this as a joke. Seriously.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:36

Uhhuh.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:08:37

And they flipped out. The publishers and my agent refused to use any other photo, and so we had to go with it and since then it's become this sort of ritual of, what photo do you put on The last one is one of my favorites. I chose. The,'cause I love, it's a painting by Brono and the painting by Brono is called Young Man with a book. So of course I wanted to put my face on there to make it look like I'm the young man. But it was a lot of fun coming up with the books that the young man has.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:14

How, what was that process like?

Rabih Alameddine: 1:09:16

Oh God, it was so much fun. The main book that he has his finger in. He's fingering the book is but you, I don't know if you'd remember,'cause I don't think you're that old, but it's called The Happy Hooker by Xavier Hollander.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:31

Oh no.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:09:32

Yeah. She used to be in the seventies. She used to have a column in penthouse Magazine that had some gay stuff in it, but it was primarily heterosexual, like you could add. It was again, young. Teenage boys read it and masturbated to it all the time. And it was so popular, but then it disappeared. So there's Xavier Hollanders, the Happy Hooker. There's Jacqueline, Suzanne the Valley of the Dolls. There is my Pet Goat and my favorite, and that's the one that I came up with, which is the annotated hungry caterpillar. Oh, good. You laughed.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:12

There's a lot to say about that book.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:10:14

no, I know.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:16

Funny.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:10:17

I can't think of anything else, but we came up with all these, what books should we put in there?

Jason Blitman: 1:10:21

They're all terrific photos and this one in particular I just loved so, so much.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:10:29

Yeah. Again, unfortunately, most people when they see that, they think it's an un, they think me unserious, which I mean, I don't know where they get this idea.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:39

Your book title has the word true in it twice and words in parentheses. So there, there's a lot giving you away. It's not just the photo. But everyone should get their copy of the true Story of Raja, the Gullible and his mother out now, wherever you get your books Robbie Aladin, it is so nice to have you here. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:11:07

Thank you for having me.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:08

So many fabulous things that I, lots that I haven't heard of that I think a lot of us are look looking forward to picking up. And I also look forward to reading your short story. I need to find my glasses even though they're on my face.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:11:22

I didn't tell you the one we know. I have one book that I wanna call it dropped in 1990 1998. And then Colin, and where the hell is my butt? It's like nobody has seen it in so long, it's

Jason Blitman: 1:11:37

Oh, no.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:11:39

happened? What happened?

Jason Blitman: 1:11:40

That's an amazing like mystery novel.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:11:42

Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:44

did your butt go? It dropped in 1998.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:11:47

It's it's like what happened? It's like gravity couldn't have dropped it that much.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:52

Oh my God. And on that note, everyone go help Robbie find his butt.

Rabih Alameddine: 1:11:56

Thank you.

1:11:57

Patrick and Robbie, thank you so much for being here. Everyone check out their books. They are out now, wherever you get your books, have a great rest of your day. See you later. Bye.