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Gays reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host Jason Blitman, and today is a special bonus episode because of course it is the 15th of the month, which means we are announcing next month's Gay's Reading Book Club pick. And I am so thrilled to share that the October pick is Middle Spoon by Alejandro Varela and you could learn more about joining the book club at the link in the Instagram bio and at the link in the show notes. And don't worry, this conversation is completely spoiler free. So you don't need to worry about whether or not you've read the book. You can still listen and enjoy no matter what. I hope you'll join us over on Altoa for the October Book Club. All right, and now here's my conversation with Alejandro Varela

Jason Blitman: 1:19

This is coming, this episode is dropping on September 15th. the book is on shelves, but more importantly, I am thrilled that it is the October Gays reading book Club pick. So here you are today as both a like pseudo guest gay reader, but you're also my book club pick and I just have so many things I can't wait to talk to you about.

Alejandro Varela: 1:42

Please. I'm ready. And also September 15th, happy birthday to my mother.

Jason Blitman: 1:47

happy Birthday to Alejandro's mother. I hope you're listening, mom.

Alejandro Varela: 1:52

She will be.

Jason Blitman: 1:55

Before we start talking about your fantastic book, middle Spoon, I wanna learn a little bit more about you. So here are some of our new guest gay reader questions. If the chapter of your life that you're in right now had a title, what would it be?

Alejandro Varela: 2:16

Oh man, you're gonna hate this one.

Jason Blitman: 2:18

Why?

Alejandro Varela: 2:19

Middle spoon. This is the moment of this book title. I think, first off, apologies to the Throuple community because it's not what I think the Throuple community uses Middle Spoon as, which is really the middle person at night in bed, I believe is the middle spoon. That is not what this book is,

Jason Blitman: 2:39

No.

Alejandro Varela: 2:40

but I still feel very much what I was trying to accomplish in that book and where I am in my life. The parallels, I wouldn't say they're uncanny because it was intentional, but it really is about exploring this middle generation this whether it's about income or immigration status or skin color or parenting versus being a child and even then just dealing with multiple relationships or unconventional romantic relationships. In that way, I'm living the moment the story is fiction, but in my life I think of myself as dealing with a lot of that. So Middle Spoon,

Jason Blitman: 3:18

It's your middle spoon chapter.

Alejandro Varela: 3:20

my middle spoon chapter.

Jason Blitman: 3:22

Okay. And if you were to title your memoir, what is the chapter? Middle Spoon is sitting within

Alejandro Varela: 3:28

A Children's Guide to Heartbreak, a Children's Guide to Heartbreak. I. I'll be honest, it was an early title for this book

Jason Blitman: 3:39

Really?

Alejandro Varela: 3:41

it was this idea that we spend now, this is very public healthy, but that what happens to your brain happens early and it really isn't like the jaws of life to change it. It's like you, it's a record with a scratch on it that get mass produced with that scratch. There's, it's really hard to undo that if at all. There are ways are interventions in this life, but I spend a lot of my brain power thinking about how to undo patterns and ideas and thoughts and things that were forged early on in my life or that continue to be forced upon us by depressed, by capitalism, what have you. And so that, yeah, so the constant I'm undoing of it is. Is is something that fascinates me, and that's what I was referring to with the Children's Guide to Heartbreak. Like, how do you, how could I write something that, a younger version, not of myself, but if anyone could be like, oh, okay, this is how you communicate. This is how we overcome a lot of the stigma and the taboos and the stress that come with them.

Jason Blitman: 4:44

You say this is gonna sound very public healthy. For the listener who hasn't had a moment to read your bio, that is because you have a master's degree in public health. Yeah.

Alejandro Varela: 4:52

right. So in, yeah, after college it took a couple years to work in like education and then. I went to public health school not knowing very little about public health was, and when I left I was like, oh, this should be the fifth year of high school for everyone. It's such a way to see society that you can't undo. It's a lens and then you put it on and then it's like the matrix. You never see anything the same way the same way again. You don't see people's actions so much as you imagine their histories and why they're doing the things that they do, and why we behave the way that we behave and what it would take for those behaviors to change. That is with public health. Studies teach you and I just feel like a better person for knowing that, but it also affects how and what I write about and how I write about.

Jason Blitman: 5:38

You said it should be everyone's fifth year of high school. And you just articulated some of your takeaways from it, but if you could even be more succinct. Is it because it helps focus the way you see the world?

Alejandro Varela: 5:57

Because we spend a lot of time in the weeds in the society fighting over downstream issues when we should be talking about the upstream reasons. We spend a lot of time telling people how to behave when we don't, without thinking of the circumstances that cause people to behave the way that they do. And so public health takes the lens out. It pulls the lens out. It's very, it's, yeah, it's

Jason Blitman: 6:21

it's so interesting to hear this, segueing right into talking about the book because it feels like that I'm sure you could have written the book otherwise, but it feels like it was that experience that encouraged the book or informed the book.

Alejandro Varela: 6:37

Absolutely. I think it's, oh. Can I ask, have you ever had to deal with grief of any kind?

Jason Blitman: 6:45

I have.

Alejandro Varela: 6:46

I have. And have you ever had heartbreak in your life? Romantic heartbreak.

Jason Blitman: 6:50

yeah.

Alejandro Varela: 6:51

And so you probably know that sort of grief and other types of grief can be all consuming and it can be very difficult to function in the world when you have this sort of ghost on you that no one can really see or feel, but you're feeling it and you're living with it all the time. You still have to function. You still have to be a parent and a member of society and go to work. And there is no. Leave of absence for heartbreak, right? And yet so many people have gone through it. And when I was writing the book, I interviewed dozens of people. Just randomly. And I'd be like, have you ever had heartbreak in your life? And the way those emotions came to the surface, for every person that I talked to, people who have been happily married for 25 years, still remember. Just that devastation, like walking down the street crying, like not being able to hold it together. And I didn't realize that that so many humans had experienced this. And so I started to imagine that we're all doing this, but we're all worried about all the things that are happening in life right now. We're worried about. The state of democracy about Sudan, Gaza, Yemen, you name it, we're worried about it, but we're also nursing broken hearts and to make things worse, people in those situations are nursing broken hearts. And so I was just fascinated by that idea that we as humans have to juggle all of it.

Jason Blitman: 8:12

And so for the listener who has not had a chance to pick it up yet, what is your elevator pitch for middle spoon?

Alejandro Varela: 8:20

Middle spoon is its heart. I believe a love story. Told through letters, unsent letters to the person who broke the narrator's heart, who happens to be a happily married father of two who owns his home and has achieved the American dream as we've been told it should be, and then experiences this intense grief for the first time in his life. So you have a middle aged person in effect, reverting to late teenage years. Being like, oh my God, the world is falling apart. I finally understand like every pop song that has ever been written, like what, what's happening. And and so through these letters we get to piece together what this relationship was, why it was meaningful, why it was working, why it wasn't. And in the process we realize he is also that this is how he's gonna deal with all sorts of stressors in his life. So we also get a better sense of how he views the world. But yeah, ultimately this, I feel this is a love story, but one colored by grief.

Jason Blitman: 9:20

I. Going back to what you were saying about things that we've all been through or felt or whatever, was about halfway through and I to both my husband and your publicist and anyone who would listen basically said, I hate this book. And the reason why I hate it is because I relate so much to it. I, you get so annoyed with the main character because. You see yourself in the behavior. And I was, and it was so frustrating'cause I was like I was such a dumb teenager. I was such a dumb 23-year-old, or, whatever it was. And obviously I didn't actually hate the book. I, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen it for my book club. I loved the book, but it was one of those things where it's like I wanted to throw it against the wall because I so deeply saw myself, but also I think. It is such a universal story of what we all go through when we're grieving something, regardless of what it is and how we behave.

Alejandro Varela: 10:26

Absolutely, and I think. That was the shock of it. I was going through a rough moment in my life and I was imagining everyone around me going through that rough moment. Like I started to have this tremendous empathy for everyone around me, and I considered myself pretty. I always thought I was a pretty empathic person, but I was like, oh my God, that's maybe why this person is behaving this way and maybe that's why this person behaves this way. Maybe that's. So I wanted to write something that everyone could relate to. And I don't us, I don't write that way. I don't always think I have. Who's my audience? That's not me. I want as many people as possible to be able to understand and relate to the things that I write. And but this time I thought grief is pretty universal. Heartbreak is universal.

Jason Blitman: 11:17

so it's interesting because yes, it is super universal. Yes, it is super relatable, except it is also not. This in the context of this book. It is in, within the package of this polyamorous relationship, which I think is tremendously taboo. It is so complicated and fraught with I think lots of confusion and feelings, et cetera. And there are so many things that I underlined in the book or highlighted or star or whatever. Some of that was for me. Personally, some of it was for me to share with you right now. Some of it was, to say to my husband, some of it was, there was so much to take away. But one of the things right now that I think is like at the heart of the book is no one imagines their life taking several deviations from the norm. And that is said in the book and I think is such a great really baseline. Of what we're talking about here. Part of the grief isn't just grieving the loss of a relationship, but it's the grief of what you expected your life to look like, to not be that way.

Alejandro Varela: 12:35

Thanks for that question or that comment. Wait, did you wanna ask something?

Jason Blitman: 12:39

So my follow up was gonna be, where did the sort of putting this in the package of polyamory come from?

Alejandro Varela: 12:49

I'm gonna have to give some credit to George. Michael, let's put it out there. I I heard an interview recently or my understanding of why he gave an interview recently and said something that. Suddenly seems so obvious to me, but I hadn't thought it about it exactly this way. He was being asked about gay culture and he was pretty much bemoaning the circuit party scene and how we had become so vapid or superficial, and this is in the nineties or whatever, and it was a little judgy but he, it was coming from place of love because he was saying as a community, we are beautiful and important and artistic and blah, blah, blah. And the quite the interviewer said why is the queer community or the gay community, so they didn't use queer, so artistic, which is a stereotype, but his argument was that if from an early age you are asked to question such a basic, tenet of society, of the way, we're supposed to think that a boy goes with a girl and they stay together forever. At some point you overcome that idea. If you're a gay person or even if you're not, then suddenly you think, wait a second. What else were they wrong about? If this most basic thing they got completely wrong, then your mind is suddenly open. And I think some of what, what sucks about the conformity and the acceptance in these days of being gay or queer is that. You do you feel so happy that you're accepted in some ways that you don't have to live the fear that the people that came before us did that. You suddenly are like, oh my God. I also want the one partner and the house and the kids and the dog and the subscriptions. And some of that is just life and enjoying life, but some of it I think is just a su like suppressing. Curiosities and desires and it, or it takes a lot of suppression to get to that place. And so I wanted, I, it would've been easy to write a book about a straight guy, what it was, heartbroken and is left alone, and everyone would've related to that heartbreak. But I wanted to have convers a bigger, broader conversation about questioning society and what is acceptable and what isn't. And I believe to, to bring it back to George Michael, there is something to art that is about curiosity, a living curiosity and always being like, but why? But why? And and that comes from the sort of foundation of coming out and realizing you're not like everyone else. So no, this book was not in a way to, it wasn't to promote unconventional romantic relationships, although if it does, wonderful. But it was really about saying we can connect on this very human thing and we can push through all of the things we don't have in common and still connect. And I loved that idea, right? That, that we could, do that.

Jason Blitman: 15:42

It's interesting. I was just talking to an author who whose book is about someone wanting to become an astronaut, and I was telling her because, becoming an astronaut, it's like a, you have a 0.0, zero zero 1% chance of that ever happening, even for the person who wants to become one. In doing so. There is enough sort of space and removal and fantastical element that allows you to tap into the other honest moments in the book. This comes up when I talked to Gabrielle ZA few years ago, about tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, because I was saying to her, I'm not a video game person at all, and I loved the book so much and I couldn't help but compare it to Friday Night Lights. I couldn't even tell you a rule in football and like maybe I could throw out some words like touchdown. But I loved that show so much because there was this buffer, or she explained to me that she thinks it's because there's this buffer of you don't feel so deeply rooted in the story that you have the space to be able to have a deeper, meaningful relationship with the characters. So in a way, I think that. Through the lens of polyamory, a lot of people will actually be able to relate in a very unique way because what's so special about the book that we don't often get to experience people who have been in long-term relationships is the ending of a relationship. So late in life, but you still have the foundation of another one. And so as an adult you're grieving the loss of a young mark relationship, which is it's such a unique experience to have and to think about,

Alejandro Varela: 17:28

and also as a writer really put me in an interesting situation because I thought not only do I have to get past maybe some conservative thinking, or but also just feeling sorry for people who already have enough, right? And so I think for a lot of people, they're like what, how? He's happily married to a wonderful person and he has two children and all the other stuff, like he can pay the bills. It's very, and so I, I was writing with that mindset thinking, I have to get past, I have to get past that hurdle as well and write this in a way that they can really connect to. And then maybe also. A better understanding of the unconventionality of the.

Jason Blitman: 18:15

Yeah. Yeah. And also I think it's a, suddenly this is becoming A-A-P-S-A for the book, which obviously it is, but there's something to be said about it being a tool to engage in conversation about unconventional. Experiences, relationships, sexual encounters, what have you. Another quote in the book is, when I was 30, I thought polyamory was an untenable extravagance for unserious and possibly degenerate people to the person who. Saw the announcement that this is the October gays reading book club pic, and they're in the club and they're like, eh, polyamory is this thing that's an untenable extravagance for unserious and possibly degenerate people. What would you say to that person who's like anxious about picking up the book or feels like it's not gonna be for them?

Alejandro Varela: 19:12

I would say that. But it's it's fun to be challenged when you're reading. It's,

Jason Blitman: 19:56

Yeah.

Alejandro Varela: 19:56

I consider it a pleasure to be in a space where I'm forced to confront or think about things that I would otherwise avoid in my everyday life and in the safety of like my brain and in my living room, and I consider that, oh God, this is so fool of myself, but a little bit of a service as a writer to be able to say, Hey, let's grapple with these things on our own. I'm not gonna call you into public square and ask you to answer questions. Just think about these things. And I also try to write characters who are growing on the page too, so that it doesn't feel like. There's a balance to the lecturing. There's a balance to the, to all the information that I put on the page. There's a kind of, I'm human to the narrator saying, I'm also figuring this out. And I think if you put vulnerability on the page, it makes the reader vulnerable. And so it's really important for me to always be vulnerable on the page. That's what I see. And I would also say that I heard someone say this recently. In fact, it was Anna Gasti, the SNL Alum Broadway and Broadway Star, and she said she came to Fire Island she said something to the effect of, it's weird. It's always weird until my friend does it. Until your friend does it. It's weird. And in a way. I write things that I hope make you feel that relationship like that was so weird until I saw someone go through it,

Jason Blitman: 21:17

and that, it's, I am, I'm so glad that you just said all of that because in choosing the book for the club that. At the core is why I was so excited about it, why I am so excited about it, and for people to read it because it is so accessible. But it really challenges you as a reader to just think about something that on one hand feels so familiar and on another hand feels so foreign. And yeah, I'm, I am just excited for. For everyone to grapple with a whole bunch of questions that will, I think, pop up for the reader along the way.

Alejandro Varela: 21:55

Thank you for saying that.

Jason Blitman: 21:56

you just mentioned on Gassier the, you are clearly a theater fan.

Alejandro Varela: 22:03

I am a fan of theater. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 22:06

We have to talk about Martin McDonough.

Alejandro Varela: 22:07

Oh I just think he's fantastic. He's such a brilliant writer and he really, his films really do a great job of capturing scene and character in a way that makes you feel like you're caught up in something very. Personal or interpersonal, but it's global. It's bigger. And I, that, that's like style of art making that I really appreciate.

Jason Blitman: 22:32

I'm such a fan of his work, his play, the Pillow Man is far and away among my favorites.

Alejandro Varela: 22:37

Oh wow. Yeah. He's

Jason Blitman: 22:38

We have to talk about another Martin that comes up in the book, Martin Short and Father of the Bride,

Alejandro Varela: 22:45

Yeah. It makes a cameo.

Jason Blitman: 22:47

He makes a cameo. Again, I don't need to give any context, but one of the best absolutely one of my favorite movies of all time. Father brought both parts one and part two. Are, you're clearly a fan of the movies

Alejandro Varela: 22:59

I am a huge fan, more of one than of two, but I love both

Jason Blitman: 23:02

fair?

Alejandro Varela: 23:02

And I think I, I meant it when I said the. He's unsung heroes over the years. Martin Short is getting his flowers right now, and I'm, we're all happy about that. Even those of us who Yeah. Don't

Jason Blitman: 23:15

though we've been in Camp Martin short for so long, I mean the same is true for Parker Posey.

Alejandro Varela: 23:20

Yes, absolutely. And it does make you think and personal Everett, if we're leaving the genre, it's nice when it happens and it can if all goes well, it'll happen in lifetime when we're still rooting for Alfre Woodard. It's gonna come for her

Jason Blitman: 23:33

yes. my God.

Alejandro Varela: 23:36

But yeah, Martin, short to me, really pop culture is such a barometer, not just for this narrator, but for me too. Grew up measuring myself at their popularity contest really. And so you just start to measure yourself against what or read and hear, and then you see these standards that they have award shows, and then that becomes a part of your like, lens too, or at least mine. And then you're like, wait a second, why is these, why are these people getting ignored all the time? And anyway, everyone knows comedy doesn't get it. The attention that it should or the love. And Martin Short is one of those people, and his Hans is ridiculous and brilliant and

Jason Blitman: 24:11

The party pooper song, everything about it is so good.

Alejandro Varela: 24:16

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 24:16

course, I know that you like part one more, but in part two there's the baby workout there. It's, it is just

Alejandro Varela: 24:23

He's great. He's really good. And that's why, that's my pitch. And this is in the book. I don't wanna give too much away, but that is my pitch for. Oscar for best featured work

Jason Blitman: 24:34

Yes,

Alejandro Varela: 24:34

after supporting. Some people may have felt that Martin wasn't in it long enough or didn't carry enough sort of emotional weight in the book, but his presence really lifts the film

Jason Blitman: 24:44

Yes, 100%. The other pop culture theater reference that comes up that I cannot avoid talking about is Alex Ripley and Emily Skinner in sides show the musical talk about a deep cut. Ran on Broadway for three months.

Alejandro Varela: 24:58

It's funny, I didn't see the musical and I haven't read it, but I remember the moment and I remember the Tony Awards and I just, I remember reading about it and I do love this idea that art can be collaborative, right? And I do think Tom Halls should have won the Oscar with f Murray Abraham for Amadeus. They should have won it together. They needed each other. One was not more important than the other. And and so I love to think of a world in which artists or performances and creation is collaborative. Which is why when the two guys who did everything everywhere, all at once won the Oscar together, that happens periodically,

Jason Blitman: 25:34

yeah.

Alejandro Varela: 25:35

and these categories that are thought of as very individualistic, you're like, whoa, two directors. That's wild. And that day one, I thought that was pretty cool.

Jason Blitman: 25:43

And circle it back to the book. Our narrator who, this hasn't come up yet, but our narrator is unnamed, which is why we haven't referred to him by a name, but our narrator cannot be the person that he is without his husband. They would win the award together, even though he's the protagonist of the book, so is this symbiosis circling around the middle spoon?

Alejandro Varela: 26:06

Yeah and I think, gosh, the husband character I feared would be the, would be really difficult for the reader because when we talk about unconventional relationships, open marriages, polyamory, I think the people who are skeptical often put themselves in the place of that husband and they're like. I wouldn't take it. I would feel mistreated. I would feel rejected. I would, and this guy's handling it so well, and I think I wanted to talk about the fact that that husband exists in this world. There are people who don't operate from a scarcity mindset when it comes to love. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:42

Yeah. And I think something I'm thinking about a lot all the time is how we only live once, how we're only alive for a short amount of time. How, the world is. Big and there's a lot of love to go around. And it's, it gets interesting and complicated and this book asks a lot of those questions and challenges some thoughts, and I'm so excited for everyone to read it. Middle Spoon by Alejandro Rela Out now, but also join the Gay Reading Book Club through Altoa. You could check the link in the show notes and in the Instagram link tree. Before I let you go, what are three words that you would use to describe the book?

Alejandro Varela: 27:29

Polyamory parenting and public health. Public health is two words,

Jason Blitman: 27:33

That's okay. I'll

Alejandro Varela: 27:34

but the other. But the other one I was thinking was pop culture, which would've also been two words.

Jason Blitman: 27:39

And all very alliterative.

Alejandro Varela: 27:41

Very.

Jason Blitman: 27:42

and if you. What is a question you would want to ask a book club? Who has read the book?

Alejandro Varela: 27:51

Can you imagine a world in which polyamory or an unconventional sort of open. Model. The way we see in the book is normalized.

Jason Blitman: 28:03

Love that. Thank you so much for being here.

Alejandro Varela: 28:07

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 28:09

I'm so

Alejandro Varela: 28:09

I love it. Thanks Jason. This a lot of fun. I really appreciate. Thank you.