0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 0:34

Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading and this super special episode of What Are You Reading With the one and only Sarah Dickinson, the host of Sarah's Bookshelves Live, which I imagine being an all capitals with an exclamation point for some reason, and sparkly lights. Not only is Sarah here to talk to me about what she's currently reading, but we're gonna do so in the Sarah's bookshelves live way. Welcome Sarah to Gay's Reading.

Sarah Dickerson: 1:04

Thank you so much for having me. Am I a one and only? That's like a pretty big deal. I've never been called the one and only before.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:12

the, hello? Sarah's bookshelves live. It's like Disney on Ice Live.

Sarah Dickerson: 1:17

That's because it was a blog before. It was a podcast, and most people don't even know that because that was so long ago.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:25

Listen, I am a good reader and I use my context clues and made assumptions about that,

Sarah Dickerson: 1:30

Yes.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:31

once just Sarah's bookshelves.

Sarah Dickerson: 1:32

the blog was Sarah's bookshelves when we started the podcast. We tacked on live

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:37

Yes. So fun. When I actually first started listening to you, I thought that the episodes might have been literally live,

Sarah Dickerson: 1:44

Oh, really? Oh no. We're not that live.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:47

No. Live ish.

Sarah Dickerson: 1:48

That would take a whole nother skill set that I don't think I have.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:51

Yeah. No. Interesting though. And scary. So maybe one day

Sarah Dickerson: 1:56

We shall see.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 1:57

I've thought about hosting like an actual radio show and I was like, I don't know that I'd be able to do that.

Sarah Dickerson: 2:04

I think that sounds really difficult.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 2:07

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 2:07

I definitely rely on the editing and

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 2:10

not just relying on editing. I would be nervous of having something to say always.

Sarah Dickerson: 2:14

And you can't edit out that long pause.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 2:16

No. And you're like, oh, someone is driving and they're listening to you

Sarah Dickerson: 2:21

Yes, absolutely.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 2:22

anyway, so I'm on a journey. Sarah, how are you today? I.

Sarah Dickerson: 2:26

I am doing well today. Thank you. How are you?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 2:29

I'm pretty good hanging in lots of, I feel like I'm surrounded by books, which is perfect for

Sarah Dickerson: 2:34

I can see them around you. I have no books behind me'cause I'm not normally on video. And sorry you guys, I have a mic, like whatever this thing is called in my, a pop filter in my face and there are no books behind me.'cause this is my guest room and the

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 2:48

honestly, I'm honored because I know that you don't do your podcast on camera, and so I this is a, this is like a special, unique insider scoop into you. I can't I love it.

Sarah Dickerson: 2:59

I hope I can remember that I'm on camera.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 3:02

I know. But we're in this together. So can you tell my listeners who may or may not have listened to Sarah's bookshelves Live before? What is the Sarah's Bookshelves Live way? What is your brand that we are gonna dive into a little bit today? How do, what do you, when you talk to people about what they're reading, what do you ask?

Sarah Dickerson: 3:20

When I talk to, first of all, my brand I would say, is like when you first press play on my podcast episode, we have a little, intro and it says getting real and sometimes snarky about books and reading. So we always share our real opinions. We do talk about books we don't like. Sometimes we're a little bit snarky. I try to always be constructive and concrete when I talk about a book I don't like, but. I do. I do a lot of different kinds of episodes. I have two co-hosts, Catherine and Susie, who join me for many episodes now. It didn't used to be that way, but intermixed with Catherine and Susie. I have other guests from the publishing industry where we will go behind the scenes of different corners of the book world. I have other sort of indie booksellers that come on, and then I also have some author interviews. Not as many as you have. But I used to do a ton of other interviews, and I do probably anywhere from four to seven a year right now. I would say the kinds of things that I like to talk to my guests about. I love to go behind the scenes of whatever I'm talking about. So if it's an author, the story behind the book, the story behind that author's publishing journey, if I'm talking to somebody from the book world, I want the behind the scenes scoop on their job.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 4:37

Yeah. I love that. And I love, we're like, I feel like you're my sister in podcasting.

Sarah Dickerson: 4:42

Oh, I love it. I'll be your sister any day.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 4:44

Yes. Okay. Not this is a unique episode of What are you reading? Because I'm not just gonna simply ask you what are you reading, but I'm gonna ask you what you're reading in the Sarah's bookshelves Live Way which is, of course two new books that you love, two old books that you love, a book that you didn't love, and a book that you're looking forward to. Where did that structure come from for you?

Sarah Dickerson: 5:06

Originally we were, this is way back, but the original idea for the show was to have other like book influencers on to talk about what they were reading. So we were like, let's put in some sort of structure and we wanted. It was more like, how do we fit in all these different types of books that we want to fit into an episode. So we know that people like to hear about backlist books. So those are our old books. We know people love to hear about upcoming releases. So that's our upcoming release we're excited about. We like to talk about new books because that's a lot of what we're reading. And in keeping with the Sarah's bookshelves brand of always being truthful and honest about our opinions about books, we needed to talk about a book we did not like.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 5:50

Yeah. Which really stressed me out on your show, but I did

Sarah Dickerson: 5:52

You

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 5:53

persevered.

Sarah Dickerson: 5:54

Can you imagine if you were stressed? The authors that come on, they are super stressed. They try to either totally dodge that question and I allow them to, if they are not comfortable, but also they will cheat and maybe pick a classic. The author's Long dead, which is a good way to get around it. Some will say, look, this is a great book, but it's just not for my personal taste, which is also. Honestly, I think that is the bottom line about books you don't like. There are a million different kinds of reading tastes out there. There is a book for everybody. There's probably a person out there in the world that likes every single book out there.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 6:30

Yeah, just before we hit record, we were talking about a book that I loved and you didn't love.

Sarah Dickerson: 6:35

Exactly.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 6:36

and here we are.

Sarah Dickerson: 6:37

That on the

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 6:38

no we are not.

Sarah Dickerson: 6:40

Okay. All right.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 6:41

So all of that said, so what are the old books that you love?

Sarah Dickerson: 6:44

The first old book I love and I'm gonna talk about, I'm gonna try the best that I can to talk about these in keeping with the style that you talk about books in on your show. Like Vibes First,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 6:55

Yes.

Sarah Dickerson: 6:56

So I read this novel in 2023, which was about a year after it was published, and I had not heard much about it in the year that it had been out, and I still haven't heard much about it, but I loved it. And it's called Like A House on Fire by Lauren McBrayer.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 7:12

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 7:13

It is a story about a married mother of two who returns to her career after feeling stuck in her life, and she develops a really intense relationship with her new female boss, which changes her life. This is a very intense character driven love story between two women and I personally, you know this'cause you listen to my show, but for your listeners who are new to me, I think a love story is very different than a romance. This is not a romance novel like by any means,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 7:46

Oh, I, this is not, this was not on my radar at all.

Sarah Dickerson: 7:49

Hey, you had never heard of this. Oh, okay. That makes me happy.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 7:54

So when I saw it come to learn about it.

Sarah Dickerson: 7:56

the focus here is about the emotional connection between these two women. It's very intense. There are some sort of torrid and breathless scenes, but that's not the crux of the story. It's really about a woman who. For most of her life has carried the load for all the people around her, like many women do. And she finally meets someone who sees straight through to what she needs and what she wants and what she's going through. And it's also about finding just your person in life, regardless of whether that person is the gender that you thought you were attracted to your entire life. Like our main character had never considered herself to be a gay woman. And this couple reminded me of Glennon Doyle and Abby Womac.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 8:43

Yes.

Sarah Dickerson: 8:44

Yes. And I listened to their podcast and I, the whole time I was reading, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like Glennon and Abby on the page.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 8:51

Oh, how interesting. I know. I need to check that out.

Sarah Dickerson: 8:54

what?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 8:55

I have to check it out. I'm so

Sarah Dickerson: 8:56

Oh, I thought you said we have to take that

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 8:58

no. I have to check it out.

Sarah Dickerson: 9:00

Oh, you don't listen to Glennon and Abby's podcast?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 9:02

No.

Sarah Dickerson: 9:04

it's, we can do hard things. It's so good.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 9:06

Okay.

Sarah Dickerson: 9:07

But when I finished the book, the really interesting part about this was I googled around'cause I like to do that sometimes. I like to go behind the scenes of the book, as I mentioned. And there was an article in Vogue written by the author Lauren McBrayer, and she talks about how this book started out as a quote, meditation on gender dynamics in a heteronormative marriage. But it turned into something else entirely. During her writing process, she realized her own marriage was falling apart and her agent pressed her if the stuff in the book did this really happen? And she said not literally, but the emotional core of the book is true. So it's very much based on her real life and. If you wanna read it, and if you are sensitive to spoilers like I am, wait until after you read the book, before you Google this Vogue article, because it does give away the ending.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 9:58

Oh, good to know. Okay.

Sarah Dickerson: 10:00

I do not like to be spoiled.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 10:03

me either. We are very spoiler free on gay's reading. Says the theme song.

Sarah Dickerson: 10:08

Like a House on fire by Lauren McBrayer. If you have not read it yet, it's so good and it's very under the radar.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 10:14

There is a book coming out in, at the end of September that I won't say what it is on the air because it is going to be my November gaze reading book Club pick through Altoa. But it ha, it has like a. Some similar vibes to what you're saying, and I am excited to share more with you.

Sarah Dickerson: 10:37

okay. You have to tell me so I can go request the galley after. After we get off the air.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 10:40

Yes, I will. All so what is your other old book that

Sarah Dickerson: 10:43

So my second old book is a five star read, and it was one of my favorite books of 2021, the year it came out, and it's the final revival of Opal and Nev by Donnie Walton. Have you read this book?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 10:56

I have.

Sarah Dickerson: 10:57

You have? Okay. It was, it's a debut.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 11:00

I loved it.

Sarah Dickerson: 11:01

Oh, good. I loved it too. And it's an oral history, but it's fictional and I am a sucker for oral histories. Fictional or nonfiction,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 11:09

I have a really hot take about this book.

Sarah Dickerson: 11:11

oh my gosh. Okay. Do you want me to do

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 11:13

Yes. Do your spiel for

Sarah Dickerson: 11:14

and then you do

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 11:15

yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 11:15

Okay. Now you have me really curious. So it's a fictional oral history. It's set in the 1970s music world and a present day journalist investigates the story behind an iconic photograph of the Interra interracial rock duo, Opal and Nev. And the photograph was taken at a concert, at a riot, at a concert in the 1970s. I love the oral history format because I feel like it gives stories, a very sort of delicious, gossipy feel. It allows for a lot of speculation about motives, and that is a lot of what the story is. It's like a darker, grittier, less escapist version of Daisy Jones in the six, oh. What,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 12:01

That's connected to my hot

Sarah Dickerson: 12:03

okay.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 12:04

Keep going.

Sarah Dickerson: 12:04

All right, good. All right. We'll put a pin in that. And what happened was this iconic photograph took on a life of its own following the riot at the Rivington Showcase, which was the concert. And the journalist examines how so many people dissected this photograph to mean so many different things, and they projected a lot of very deep meaning onto it. Some political, some not, and. She goes into was all of this intended did the people in the photograph intend to disseminate these messages that a lot of the people viewing the photograph were projecting onto it? And we do also get, of course, get the broader behind the scenes story of the rise and fall of and of the rise and the eventual breakup of Opal and Dev as a rock duo.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 12:52

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 12:53

Opal is the most amazing character. She is memorable. She's singular. I ne had never read anyone like her before. She's extremely provocative, yet also really vulnerable, and she's funky. She's like creatively and stylistically funky. I. And there are these editor's notes at the, oh sorry. There are these editor's notes that are like injected throughout the story kind of mixing in the journalist own journey as she's learning the details behind this photograph. And again, going back to behind the scenes of this fair felt very Ooh, we're getting the behind the scenes scoop even though it's fictional, right? It's the kind of book that like tricks your brain into thinking you're reading about a real band, which also Daisy Jones and the sixth did for me

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 13:36

Yeah, the amount of Googling to see

Sarah Dickerson: 13:39

Oh yeah.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 13:40

was a lot

Sarah Dickerson: 13:41

And then is there anyone it could be based on,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 13:43

yeah,

Sarah Dickerson: 13:45

all right. I wanna hear your hot take.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 13:46

so I read Oprah and Nev first

Sarah Dickerson: 13:50

Oh, okay.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 13:53

I read Daisy Jones.

Sarah Dickerson: 13:54

Interesting. Okay. I had read them in the reverse

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 13:56

Yes. Which I think is how most people did.'cause that's the order in which they came out. But I read Al and Nev first and then read Daisy Jones and was like, what is this watered down garbage version of Al and Nev? Which like obviously isn't true, but it made me sad because I think Al and Nev is so gritty and so It's just. It more interesting, for lack of a better word, there's

Sarah Dickerson: 14:21

It's deeper.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 14:22

the stakes are higher, right? And it's deeper. And so for me, when I read Daisy Jones, I was like, what?

Sarah Dickerson: 14:29

So to me, Daisy Jones felt like this sort of fun romp, even though there are some kind of dark things in there. And Opal and Dev did not feel like a fun romp. It was like intense and

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 14:40

And it was like a real story, like you,

Sarah Dickerson: 14:41

but I kept turning those pages

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 14:43

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that's my hot take is that I'm sad that I feel like it got overshadowed by Daisy Jones, but it's like the better version of a similar story.

Sarah Dickerson: 15:28

I agree and I am glad I read them in the order that I did, because I rated both of them five stars,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 15:34

Oh, that's so interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 15:36

I didn't ruin my reading experience of Daisy Jones.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 15:39

And that's such an interesting just like. Thought exercise on context mattering.

Sarah Dickerson: 15:44

Oh, a hundred percent.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 15:45

There was this book that I loved recently that another, that a bookstagram wrote to me about that she really didn't like. And she said, to be fair, I had just read a book that was a five star read for me. I loved it so much. I'd never read anything like it. So then when I read this other book, I was super disappointed. And I said, that's funny because for me, I had just come off of a book that ID nfd.

Sarah Dickerson: 16:09

Yeah, that matters. And especially if the two books have similarities.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 16:13

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 16:14

I always, after a five star read, I always try to go in a totally different direction from a

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 16:19

good for you. That's so smart.

Sarah Dickerson: 16:21

oftentimes fiction to nonfiction or vice versa.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 16:25

Yeah. So that's the final revival of Opal and Nev. Yes. Loved. Okay. What now we're onto new books.

Sarah Dickerson: 16:34

yes. We're on to new books and. You are getting an exclusive. Both the new books I'm sharing today, I have not actually talked about on my own show

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 16:43

Oh,

Sarah Dickerson: 16:43

yet, and

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 16:45

hot off the press.

Sarah Dickerson: 16:46

I know. This first one I'm not going to talk about on my own show. It is getting so much buzz. It was an Oprah pick this summer, but my co-host Catherine read it and already talked about it on the show. So I now can't bring it back. Unless I have a different opinion, which I don't. So I'm really glad to be able to talk about it here'cause I did love it. It is culpability by Bruce Holsinger and. Culpability is a story about how an upper middle class family is impacted by ai and it kicks off with a car crash involving a self-driving car that's powered by ai. And that's all I'm gonna tell you about the plot. First of all, like I got so many email pitches this calendar year for novels about ai, and I've been allergic to them. I've been like delete, delete, except this one. And the reason that I. Made an exception here is that I loved Holsinger novel, the Displacement, Was his last book, and I heard that culpability read more like a family drama than an AI book, which is up my alley. And I would agree, I think culpability very much reads like a family drama and it's really about the human impact of ai, like the very real world human consequences for relatable people. About AI's involvement in their life. It's exactly the kind of book that you talked about loving. When you came on my show, you said you used this analogy that I loved, and I'm sure you already know what I'm gonna say, but it's a book that feels like you're eating substantive and nourishing food, but it's also food that's really easy to eat.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 18:28

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 18:29

The filet mignon that you can cut with a butter knife and like it deals with thought provoking, it deals with cut that out. Obviously

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 18:37

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 18:38

it deals with thought provoking topics, but it's super accessible and easy to read and I flew through It

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 18:44

It's everywhere. And

Sarah Dickerson: 18:46

is

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 18:47

not, I haven't picked it up, so I'm, this is, you have sold the culpability to me.

Sarah Dickerson: 18:52

Oh good. I'm not done yet.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 18:53

I'm bring it on.

Sarah Dickerson: 18:55

It's reminded me a little bit of Lori Frankl. This is How it always is. Have you read that?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 19:01

No, but I read her other book.

Sarah Dickerson: 19:05

This is a couple books ago for her and it, I would say it's her most well known, but it's about this regular family who has a very young child for who from a very young age knows is transgender. And so it's about the whole family going through that situation and experiencing that and the way that they, these two books feel similar to me. Culpability is not about a transgender person at all, but it's a very relatable family that I could picture myself being a part of, and they're dealing with a situation that many people have not experienced, but totally could experience. And it asks big questions about the intersection of technology and morality, and of course culpability. It's like an examination of class and privilege, not only wealth based privilege, but like white male star athlete privilege, which I think is totally a thing. My caveat, and Catherine, my cohost who read this first warned me about it and she was right. She told me to skip the epilogue.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 20:11

What?

Sarah Dickerson: 20:12

Yes. She said it was so bad it took a half star off the book for her. And I don't generally love epilogues anyway, but okay. So what she did was make me then curious,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 20:24

of course.

Sarah Dickerson: 20:24

So I did not skip the epilogue. I read the epilogue, but in my head I was like, I'm not gonna rate the book based on the epilogue. I'm gonna pretend that the end of the book is the end of the book. And I did agree with her. The epilogue just took the wind outta the sails. There's at the end of the book, like my jaw was on the floor and the epilogue just tempered all that emotion.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 20:44

Interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 20:45

In the book with my jaw on the floor, please.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 20:48

This is so funny, this comparison that I'm about to make, but I watch a lot of Project Runway and the amount of times that something like styling will affect a judgment. The outfit is amazing, but then they like. Also had a jacket on, and then at the judging station, they're like, take the jacket off. And they're like, see, if it didn't have the jacket, it would've won. And so that's what this sort of feels like. It's, it's the perfect outfit come, the ending and then they tacked on a little more.

Sarah Dickerson: 21:20

It feels like to me sometimes publishers, and I could be wrong. I don't know the order of how the epilogues get put in, right? But I feel like an author probably ends a book at the end of the book and the publisher comes in and is oh, people are gonna think that's too open ended. We need to wrap things up in a tidy bow, you gotta put in an epilogue. And that annoys me to kingdom come.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 21:41

This is very interesting that you're bringing this up because I, and I know that. You're not saying that as fact of what happened with culpability.

Sarah Dickerson: 21:50

No, it's my opinion.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 21:51

but that and that's, an interesting observation of how it is perceived and knowing that you're not alone and that the epilogue didn't work. I can't help but feel like sometimes in the industry, people who have their head down in the industry, they're not actually paying attention to what readers want.

Sarah Dickerson: 22:10

Yeah. No, I agree. And I also do think we read a ton of books. We are not representative of the average reader, and I do know that, and I know this from, just look, looking up a bunch of books on Goodreads and like seeing the reviews, a lot of people's negative reviews is I hated the ending. They didn't give me the ending. And so I know that an ending, that's a, and by the way, the ending of this book, I wouldn't even say it's that open-ended. It's not. But my point being was there was a level of emotion that Bruce Holsinger got me to feel with the ending. I was like oh my gosh.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 22:50

Interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 22:51

then it just dribbled after that.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 22:53

Okay. Noted.

Sarah Dickerson: 22:55

Yeah, noted. And that's culpability by Bruce Holsinger. And we are gonna be doing a spoiler discussion on this book for my paying subscribers on Patreon and Substack. Yeah, Catherine and I are gonna do that.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 23:08

Fun. All right. I have to read it and then join in.

Sarah Dickerson: 23:13

So my second, and that's culpability by Bruce Holsinger. My second new book I loved is a very under the Radar debut that I featured it in my fall preview podcast episode, but I had not read it yet and I've now read it. I loved it and I hope it gets more attention. It is Dominion by Addie e Kitchens, and it came out like at the end of August, so it's out. You can get it now. It is the story of a very public fall from grace of the prominent reverend of a black church in a small Mississippi town in the year 2000. And his golden boy son, who, by the way, the son is nicknamed Wonder Boy, so we're not hiding the fact that the son has done all the things right and obviously. When I told you what this book is about, I said, the Reverend and his son, right? And yes, the men in this story do take up a lot of space, but at its heart, I felt like this was a story about the women. It's told from the perspective of the two most central women in the Reverend and Wonder Boys lives, it's told from reverend's wife's perspective and Wonderboy's high school girlfriend's perspective, It's very voicey. I love a Voicey book and. I gotta read you the first line because it's funny as all get out.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 24:35

Yes. Bring it on.

Sarah Dickerson: 24:37

Reverend Saber Winfrey Jr. Believed without a shadow of a doubt that an idol mind was the devil's workshop, but an idol hand belonged on a behind.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 24:47

Ha. Oh

Sarah Dickerson: 24:49

that's the vibe of this book. And Priscilla, who's the reverend's wife, she's very snarky. That was, that line is from her perspective. She's funny. She's just had it with all the men in her life and throughout the story, she's slowly coming to this realization that she's basically surrounded by like worthless, terrible men. Sorry. You're not worthless and terrible

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 25:10

You just mean in general?

Sarah Dickerson: 25:11

in general? There is some suspense, but that is definitely not the center of the story. And I love what I like to call person left behind books, the stories of people that live in the shadows of those sort of more prominent people that they're close to. And that's exactly what Dominion is. Priscilla lives in the shadow of her Reverend Husband and Diamond, who is Wonder Boy's High School girlfriend lives in the shadow of Wonder Boy, obviously, because he is the anointed son of the town that's gonna go on and make good on this small town. And I know I generally just said I didn't like Epilogues. But I loved Dominion's epilogue,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 25:54

Interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 25:55

the last paragraph. I was like, oh, this is like the whole point of the book. Thank you.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 25:59

What do you think made the difference for you?

Sarah Dickerson: 26:03

It was not about neatly tying up all the character stories. It was about sharing more like an evolution of a character mentally and emotionally. And it was a character that like, I wanted that person to get to that place. Yeah,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 26:18

Interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 26:19

it's not, it wasn't plotty. I don't like it when it's and five years later. The Reverend is doing this and is doing this, that was not

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 26:26

ever after. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. It's I'm not necessarily seeing it all over the place in quotation marks, however, it has such a dark cover that I, when I clocked it, I was like, oh, I am. I'm recognizing this from other places on Instagram or bookstore windows or whatever, because the cover is very striking.

Sarah Dickerson: 26:47

It's a very elongated church steeple that's made to look like a snake. And yeah that tracks,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 26:55

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 26:56

It's very short. It's 240 pages.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 26:58

Oh, perfect.

Sarah Dickerson: 26:59

Yeah, and I just I am a sucker for if I love the writing, if I love the voice, I will go anywhere with an author. And I hope a lot more people read this book. It's, just deliciously gossipy, dark side of the church kind of stuff.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:15

This is interesting'cause this is the second time you've talked about gossip. That's why you like whatchamacallit, novels

Sarah Dickerson: 27:23

oral

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:24

oral histories, uhhuh.

Sarah Dickerson: 27:25

Yep.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:26

I'm learning a lot about you, Sarah.

Sarah Dickerson: 27:27

I also love trashy reality tv.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:30

Oh my God. So funny.

Sarah Dickerson: 27:32

Love Island. Yes, ma'am.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:34

There is a book coming out in December called The Book of Luke. Is that on your radar

Sarah Dickerson: 27:38

Oh, no.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:40

Level Holder? It's being pitched as Survivor meets less.

Sarah Dickerson: 27:46

Oh, interesting.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 27:50

So I've heard it gives you like everything you want in trashy tv, but also everything you want in a good

Sarah Dickerson: 27:56

In a good literary novel. Okay, perfect. I loved the compound this

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:00

Oh, Uhhuh.

Sarah Dickerson: 28:01

you read

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:02

I didn't, but it's sitting on my shelf.

Sarah Dickerson: 28:03

It's like a very dark, gritty survivor meets love island kind of reality show, but it's not frothy and fun. It is dark and gritty, and there's an apocalyptic stuff going on like outside of the villa. They're all living in

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:17

Interesting. Okay.

Sarah Dickerson: 28:18

another five star read from the summer. Bonus pick.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:21

All right. What is the order in which you go next

Sarah Dickerson: 28:23

Okay. So I go to did not like, because I don't wanna finish on a negative

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:27

Yeah. Smart.

Sarah Dickerson: 28:28

and then I finish with upcoming release I'm excited about.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:31

Okay. So what book did you not

Sarah Dickerson: 28:33

So this book is getting a lot of great reviews. Yeah. Also, I've been in a massive nonfiction slump this year.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 28:42

Interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 28:43

I'm calling it the great nonfiction slump of 2025, which is also turning into the great audiobook slump of 2025. Because I listen to, I only listen to, let wait, let me rephrase that. The only thing I listen to on audio is nonfiction. I do, I have trouble with fiction on audio.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 29:00

Yeah, me too.

Sarah Dickerson: 29:01

So this is one of the culprits of my great slump of 2025. It is no more tears. The Dark Secrets of Johnson and Johnson by Gardner Harris look also gossipy. This is an expose of the multiple scandals of the very well-known company, Johnson and Johnson. And it's written by a pharmaceutical industry reporter for the New York Times. And he covered a number of scandals, some that I was familiar with, and some that were new to me, like the Johnson's baby powder containing asbestos, which that was new to me. I did not know that. He covered the Tylenol. Arsenic poisoning scandal, which I was aware of.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 29:40

Which there's a documentary about on

Sarah Dickerson: 29:42

Oh, is

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 29:43

so good.

Sarah Dickerson: 29:44

Oh my God. Okay, now I'm gonna have to go watch that. He talks about marketing dangerous antipsychotics to children, which I did not know about. And then he also talks about a cancer drug that actually makes tumors grow,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 29:57

I.

Sarah Dickerson: 29:57

which I did not know about. I love a book about a scandal, which is not surprising after this whole conversation today where I've just been talking about gossip. You guys, I do other things besides

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 30:08

yes you do. You do. You do.

Sarah Dickerson: 30:09

yeah. But I heard Al Woodworth, who is one of Amazon books, editors say that no more tears was like reading Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden. Keefe, which I absolutely loved.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 30:23

Yeah. Good book.

Sarah Dickerson: 30:24

Like great book, very scandalous, lots of big revelations, but also really propulsive

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 30:30

Yeah. It's like a thrilling family drama.

Sarah Dickerson: 30:32

absolutely. So that's what I was expecting from no more tears. And there are big revelations in this book, but it is not propulsive, sorry. It is very dry at times, there is a lot of medical jargon, a lot of legal jargon, a lot of really long names of different drugs and medications. And obviously for, not obviously'cause I am not an auditory learner, but on audio that was even more difficult for me and even more dry for me and harder to keep up with. And I think it's just imagining I was gonna get Empire of Pain might've set me up for disappointment here.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 31:11

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 31:12

Yeah. I wish it had been written in a more compelling and accessible style because I do think it's, it is, while being very dry at times, very important stuff is in this book. And I'm glad that it was published to get that stuff out there. But I just, I wanted it to be more like that filet mignon.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 31:32

Yes.

Sarah Dickerson: 31:34

Yeah. But it's getting great reviews and if you want denser nonfiction, it might be for you.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 31:42

It's unfair too because not only is a comp empire of pain, but also the cover is fun. It looks like a a baby powder bottle. Isn't that that something like, that it like.

Sarah Dickerson: 31:55

It's the branding from Johnson's Baby Powder. It's like the same font, the same colors, stuff like that. And in the little like logo space, it says deception, corruption, death.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 32:10

So because it feels, there's something fun in quotes about that cover, it looks almost cheeky. It's setting itself up for success or set. It's not, it is not, setting itself up for success.

Sarah Dickerson: 32:24

that's not the vibe of the book at all. I do, however, think the cover was pretty genius.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 32:28

Yeah, no, of course. But

Sarah Dickerson: 32:30

match the vibe of the book, but it is very clever as far as the branding and it is simple, yet complex.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 32:37

Yeah. Okay. Noted.

Sarah Dickerson: 32:40

so that's No More Tears by Gardner Harris, I'm so sorry, but you know that book's doing well.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 32:44

right. It's doing fine. as a gift, To help with your nonfiction slump.

Sarah Dickerson: 32:49

Please.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 32:50

One of my favorite books of the year, which I did both audio and physical of simultaneously, is talk. The subtitle is The Science of Conversation and The Art of Being Ourselves by Allison Wood Brooks.

Sarah Dickerson: 33:05

Oh, I have not heard of that. Okay.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 33:07

a class about conversation at Harvard. And she is so incredible. She's a great speaker in terms of just she's a Harvard professor, but her background is in theater and she's just so warm and accessible. And particularly for you who, you have conversations for a living, I was shocked by the amount that I've taken from this book and that I like still think about daily. it's so great.

Sarah Dickerson: 33:35

I have conversations for a living, but they're about a topic I could talk about forever. I am not as great at small talk when I can't immediately grab onto something we have in common to talk about.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 33:50

Yeah,

Sarah Dickerson: 33:51

And I could probably, because I am an introvert at heart, even though it probably doesn't feel like that right

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 33:56

I would say I am the same.

Sarah Dickerson: 33:58

Yeah.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 33:58

I get all of my rejuvenation from being by

Sarah Dickerson: 34:01

Reading. Yeah,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 34:02

from reading. Yes, exactly. So I highly recommend it and the audio is very good.

Sarah Dickerson: 34:07

Oh, perfect.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 34:07

Yeah.

Sarah Dickerson: 34:08

I've been writing on a little notepad the books you've been telling me. So I have Book of Luke and I have talk.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 34:15

Yes. Book of Lu I haven't read yet, but I do It still feels like something you

Sarah Dickerson: 34:19

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.'cause I can get early galleys, so that's helpful for me.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 34:24

And so finally, what is the book that you're looking forward to?

Sarah Dickerson: 34:28

The book I'm looking forward to now. I have not read this yet, but I have read her previous book. I did not have space to share this in our fall preview episode, so I'm thrilled that I can talk about it here. And it is nonfiction, so it is obviously a risk for me this year,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 34:45

Okay. Listen.

Sarah Dickerson: 34:47

but. I have loved her before, so I'm hoping it can help me turn a corner. It's Paper Girl, A Memoir of Home and Family in a Fractured America by Beth Macy. Have you heard of Beth Macy?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 35:00

No.

Sarah Dickerson: 35:02

Okay. She wrote Dope Sick. Have you heard of that?

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 35:06

Oh, yes.

Sarah Dickerson: 35:07

opioid crisis? Yeah, so that came out a couple years back. That came out before Empire of Pain, which is also

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 35:14

Oh, interesting.

Sarah Dickerson: 35:15

And she is now turning to memoir and telling the story of the changes that her really small hometown of Urbana, Ohio has gone through since she grew up there in the seventies and eighties. she grew up fairly poor and went to college on a Pell Grant before becoming a journalist. And in 2020 she began returning to her hometown to take care of her ailing mother. So she went, was going back pretty often, and she started to notice the town's general decline. There was no longer any local newspaper, which she was. She delivered the local newspaper when she was a kid, hence the book's title. And there were, the graduation rates were severely declining at the local high school. There was a mental health crisis, just general economic decline, all this kind of stuff going on. And so it's a social change story, but also her personal story. And I like when social issues are written about through a personal, the lens of a personal story and. I will probably listen to this on audio, so hopefully that will be okay. And it's coming out October 7th, and that is Paper Girl by Beth Macy.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 36:31

Fun. I say fun thinking

Sarah Dickerson: 36:33

I don't know that this is a

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 36:34

Oh, no, no, no. the audio book, because she is probably reading it and

Sarah Dickerson: 36:37

So she did narrate dope Sick. So I would imagine she's gonna narrate her memoir. Yeah. And I love memoirs narrated by the author.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 36:43

Yes. Including one of our favorites, the many lives of Mama Love.

Sarah Dickerson: 36:47

Oh my gosh, yes. Oh did you see that? I posted on Instagram, I think it was like my upcoming guest post about your episode, and she commented on it

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 36:57

did. I did. I love her.

Sarah Dickerson: 36:59

and I was like, oh, we talked about you.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:02

And here we are again talking about her

Sarah Dickerson: 37:03

Yes, we are. She's one of my all time favorite interviews that I've ever done. And it's not because of me. It was because of her.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:09

she's amazing. What a great list of books to have.

Sarah Dickerson: 37:15

Thank you.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:15

you so much.

Sarah Dickerson: 37:17

thank you for giving me a place to talk about a couple things that and at least culpability I'm not going to be talking about on my

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:22

We, we are here for each other. Anytime you wanna talk about a book that you don't get to talk about on your show, come on over and talk about it on

Sarah Dickerson: 37:29

That my co-host steal right from under my

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:31

Yes. There's always a place for you on gay's reading as a, as an ally.

Sarah Dickerson: 37:35

Thank you. I appreciate you having me. This has been so fun. My face hurts from laughing and smiling so

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:41

Oh, I'm so glad. Thank you so much for being here. Everybody go check out Sarah's bookshelves live. You're all over the place. You're on Instagram, you have your website, you have your show, you have your Patreon, your Substack. You're where aren't you

Sarah Dickerson: 37:55

I'm not super big on Facebook,

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 37:57

Sure Nor on

Sarah Dickerson: 37:58

Also, I wanna plug. Your visit to my podcast, which aired on September 17th. so you can go to my feed and hear Jason talk about what it's like to interview authors. And we, that's a two-way conversation'cause we both interview authors and he also talks about what it's like to produce a literary festival. And then he shares his picks in the format that we just did today.

jason-blitman_1_09-11-2025_124148: 38:25

Again, thank you for being here. Everyone, if you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends. Follow us on social media at Gays Reading. Check us out on YouTube and all the things and all the places, and I'll see you next time. Bye.

Sarah Dickerson: 38:37

you. Bye, Jason.