0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to GA's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman. And on today's episode I have Lily King, the one and only Lily King. Uh, she talks to me about her brand new book, heart the Lover. And my guest gay reader today is Dustin Tao, whose book you've found Oliver, uh, also just came out. So both of those books are available now. Both of their bios can be found in the show notes, and I am so happy to be here. This. band Books week y'all. What are, what are we doing to combat band books? Um, I know I'm gonna buy a bunch and I'm gonna gift a bunch and support some local organizations and like my local library and other things like that. So I hope you're doing something too to support, uh, the. The band books crazy y'all. It is freaking crazy. Um, anyway, thank you all for being here. If you are new to Gay's Reading, welcome. If you are coming back again, as always, welcome back. Such a I'm, I am I. Astonished and grateful that folks keep coming back. I once upon a time hated listening to my own voice, uh, and would've never thought that people would wanna listen to it. So this is always very funny to me. Um, folks have asked me how to leave a review for the show, so let me quickly explain. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts and you're listening to the episode, you can click Gaze Reading underneath the episode. Title and it'll take you to the main page. Then scroll all the way down and you'll see the ratings and reviews, you'll see the stars. Um, and that is the place that you could leave, uh, hopefully a five star rating and a review if you're so inclined. It means so much to me and really helps with the algorithm so that other folks can in theory, potentially find this podcast. In addition, we are on social media. We are, AKI is reading over on the Instagram and what else is happening. There's a lot of fun stuff coming down the pike in the world in my life. And I'm excited to share some of that as the weeks go on. Today is Tuesday. Tomorrow, Wednesday. I am in conversation live with Claire Leslie Hall, uh, talking about her book Broken Country, which has been one of my. Favorites of the year and we will be, uh, together in conversation in San Diego. I was recently in conversation with Mona Awa for her new book. We Love You Bunny. And I'm gonna post that audio recording of that conversation on the Gaze reading Substack. So if you're not following Gaze reading over on Substack, do that so that you could check out my conversation with my pal Mona Awa. Um, I'm Will. Most that conversation will be free for folks to listen to so you can hop on over to the substack and check that out. On the 15th, of course the Gaze Reading Book Club pick will be announced for the November book club for Stora, like, which is crazy'cause it's barely October. Um, but the November book Club pick will be announced then. And if you have not joined for the month of October, you still have time. To do that, we're reading Middle Spoon by Alejandro Illa, which I was certainly a big fan of, and know that folks will really like it too. All the things, all the links are in the bio on Instagram and in the show notes here on the page for those who have listened to me ramble on. Thanks for bearing with me. Um, but everyone, please enjoy my conversations with Lily King and Dustin Tao.

Jason Blitman: 4:17

Lily King, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Lily King: 4:20

thank you. I'm so honored to be here.

Jason Blitman: 4:22

Are you kidding? I'm so excited here to talk about Heart the Lover. I have so many things to talk to you about, but I want you to give us the elevator pitch. For heart, the lever to set the scene for us.

Lily King: 4:33

Okay at the very beginning, a nameless woman goes on a bad date with a very smart guy and. That kind of is the catalyst for the whole thing. It's her senior year of college and despite the fact that everybody on the internet seems to be calling it a campus novel, we only stay on campus for less than half the book. And then we jump. 21 years and then we'd jump another nine years. It's really about a relationship that starts in college as a romantic relationship. And there's a love triangle of course, at first, and then. And then it's really about the evolution of love in your life and how you love people romantically. And then it turns into a profound friendship. And I'm just, I'm really interested right now in the different forms of love and how it presents itself and how you can feel different forms of love for the same person throughout your life.

Jason Blitman: 5:37

It's very interesting. I, speaking of campus novels, a college, two college professors who were married for 30 years to each other. Are recently going through a divorce and they are so publicly, like consciously uncoupling. And it's really just a matter of how they're shifting their love for each other.

Lily King: 5:59

Interesting.

Jason Blitman: 6:00

It's very interesting.

Lily King: 6:02

Of course, I wanna ask a million questions about that.

Jason Blitman: 6:05

I don't actually know that much, unfortunately. It's like what I see on social media, which is like its own problem right now. We're getting the snippets of what they want us to see.

Lily King: 6:15

And so it's, they're not presenting it as acrimonious.

Jason Blitman: 6:18

no.

Lily King: 6:19

That's beautiful.

Jason Blitman: 6:20

Yeah. Yeah. Love shifts and changes as we learn in the book.

Lily King: 6:24

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:24

Okay. What is with the vulgar packaging of the book,

Lily King: 6:30

No one has called it vulgar yet, but

Jason Blitman: 6:33

it, you call it that

Lily King: 6:36

whatcha talking about,

Jason Blitman: 6:38

girl.

Lily King: 6:39

oh shit, what did I say?

Jason Blitman: 6:40

PA page four. The professor is holding up two neon orange pieces of paper despite its vulgar packaging, he says,

Lily King: 6:50

Okay. First of all, no one has put that together yet. Not even me. Isn't that sad? Isn't that so sad? I don't even know what's in that book.

Jason Blitman: 7:00

That's so funny because here I am. I know. I was like, you're wearing a bright orange shirt. Orange comes up again in the book, and I was like, a, why is she obsessed with orange B? The concept of the book being neon orange per the beginning of the book is genius. You didn't even get it.

Lily King: 7:17

Did not get it because that book that design came to us as yellow, like as bright yellow, and the what is pink now was red and it was an entirely different thing. And we were all like, okay, this is really weird, but really good. We're gonna go with it. And then everyone was like, it's too much like yellow face. You know the big hit

Jason Blitman: 7:41

Oh,

Lily King: 7:42

Several years ago, we cannot do that. And we're like, no, what are we gonna do? And then we had a gazillion different colors to choose from. And this is what we chose. Never thinking about the orange, because that orange was originally green. It was neon green, and

Jason Blitman: 7:59

In the book.

Lily King: 8:00

yes. All the colors have been rearranged everywhere.

Jason Blitman: 8:03

my

Lily King: 8:04

And I think probably maybe at some point we did connect it, but I've completely forgotten that'cause it's been months and months. But thank you for preparing me for that one

Jason Blitman: 8:13

it's the third line of the book. Talking about neon orange and being vulgar packaging. That's why I

Lily King: 8:20

that

Jason Blitman: 8:20

book Vulgar Lily. That's the only reason. Oh my God, it's so funny.

Lily King: 8:25

just thought it was just a random swipe at the cover. I was like, okay, here we go.

Jason Blitman: 8:30

Welcome to gay's reading where we just judge.

Lily King: 8:34

They're meanies.

Jason Blitman: 8:35

Oh my God, it's so funny. Wait, but you clearly like the color orange. You're wearing it right now.

Lily King: 8:40

it's true. I'm really wearing it for the message, which is probably upside down for you, or backwards

Jason Blitman: 8:45

No. It's perfect.

Lily King: 8:47

Good. Which I think is so important right now. We need to stay human.

Jason Blitman: 8:52

I know. Okay. You say it's not a campus novel'cause we are less than half the book on campus. But however our protagonist takes a class that I'm dying to take, which is modern furniture.

Lily King: 9:07

That is.

Jason Blitman: 9:09

It sounds amazing. Did you take Margaret? Where did. that come from?

Lily King: 9:13

I did. And I was so bored. Of course now I would be interested, but I was not interested as a 21-year-old.

Jason Blitman: 9:22

isn't that the thing? Oh my God. The things that we would appreciate now that we didn't when we were young people, but I was like, modern furniture, I wanna take that class. Oh, but you were bored.

Lily King: 9:33

I was bored. And I'll tell you something else, is every, I had to, I actually. Read a little snippet on another interview today. And I got to the modern furniture part, and I was remembering that when I took modern furniture, like it was this, professor down as I described down, at a slideshow thingy, at the bottom of this big auditorium where you sat, and the com, the seats were so comfy that you fell asleep. And I was just like, I don't know. I just found it also unremarkable and it turns out that a friend of a friend. Was in that class and she fell in love with that professor and they're married and they have several children I believe. And that was just a miracle to me because that guy like and I think he was actually really good looking, but. I was, I was,

Jason Blitman: 10:19

that class for you.

Lily King: 10:21

I just, I didn't see him as a human,

Jason Blitman: 10:24

Oh no. See, for me, a hot professor could totally save a class. I'm, that's too bad

Lily King: 10:29

No, I wasn't into older men at all. They terrified me.

Jason Blitman: 10:33

Did you take other weird classes like that?

Lily King: 10:36

Oh God. I'm sure I did. I took ice skating um, when I, I did I, I did, I did my first year and a half of college was at UNH and and there was, yeah, I had, there was a PE requirement and so I took ice skating. I was actually, I actually learned how to turn and everything. And it

Jason Blitman: 10:57

Do you think you could still do

Lily King: 10:58

Yes I could.

Jason Blitman: 11:00

Interesting. Okay.

Lily King: 11:02

was useful.

Jason Blitman: 11:03

In high school my PE requirement was first aid.

Lily King: 11:08

Oh, I love that.

Jason Blitman: 11:10

This chubby theater kid was not doing anything else besides First aid.

Lily King: 11:16

I bet you still use those things to this day.

Jason Blitman: 11:19

Sure, of course.

Lily King: 11:20

saved

Jason Blitman: 11:21

Remember how CPR goes, right? But it had me thinking in college. I took history of radio, was my history requirement, which was

Lily King: 11:31

Wow, that's really cool.

Jason Blitman: 11:33

Yeah. And then my religion class,'cause I went to this nice Jewish boy, went to the largest Catholic university in the country and I had to take a religion class. But it could have been anything. And my religion class was religion in pop culture.

Lily King: 11:44

Oh wow. That sounds really interesting. What what did you write your papers on?

Jason Blitman: 11:50

I, my paper was on how a feeder is like a church.

Lily King: 11:56

Ooh. That's beautiful. That's so beautiful.

Jason Blitman: 11:59

And things that came up were like how malls are religious experiences and all sorts of weird, very specific. Yeah, it was fascinating.

Lily King: 12:10

that is fascinating. Wow. No, I didn't take anything interesting like that.

Jason Blitman: 12:15

Oh my god. Modern furniture though. That's so funny.

Lily King: 12:20

Ah.

Jason Blitman: 12:21

I'm a little bummed. It's fine. It made me think, the book made me think a lot about student verse scholar And how a student can become a scholar, but a scholar can always be a student.

Lily King: 12:37

hmm. Interesting.

Jason Blitman: 12:39

I, again, we're, we'll move off of campus in a minute, but what, was it like going back to school for you?

Lily King: 12:46

I just wanna follow up do you feel like a scholar can't always be a student because of the sort of arrogance and superiority

Jason Blitman: 12:53

No, I think a scholar can always

Lily King: 12:55

oh, can, okay. Sorry. Sorry.

Jason Blitman: 12:57

right? A student has to become a scholar, a scholar can

Lily King: 13:02

Yes. Okay. Okay. That makes

Jason Blitman: 13:04

So as a scholar of creative writing, let's say, what was it like coming back to school for you?

Lily King: 13:10

Oh, it was really fun. I had been writing before this novel, I had been after and after writers and lovers, I started this political murder mystery, COVID. We were into COVID, and Trump was still president and. I had a lot of fear and rage, and so I tried to channel it into this novel that went full force for 90 pages and then crashed into a brick wall. And and right at that time when I was really trying to literally break through a brick wall and Patchett sent me her manuscript for Tom Lake and I started reading that and I, it starts in a gym in high school and, I don't know. There was something about it. I just was like, she is having fun. I want to have fun. And so I just flipped to the back of that notebook and I started writing that classroom scene in, in college between these three people. And and that was it. I never ever looked back. I just and I. I, that's funny. I don't know how much I felt like I was going back, but I suppose I was going back. I definitely drew on experiences that I had in college and

Jason Blitman: 14:25

You took Marty Furniture,

Lily King: 14:26

Exactly. Exactly. And anything that, I could use, I would use, and just the emotions of that time is really what I went back to. Um. At the same time, I'm not I'm in it, but I'm not reflecting back on being in it and while it's going on. So it's hard to talk about because you just go into little bit of a trance, when you're writing and when you come out, you don't really remember what that trance was like,

Jason Blitman: 14:56

Well, You're also, to be fair to you and to the story, it's not auto fiction. You are, you're just pulling from experiences to like piece together details. Not to say that, like not to. Say that writing is that simple, but you're pulling from your

Lily King: 15:13

Yeah. No, you're pulling from everything you got. I feel like I'm just, every, everything I have I need to draw from, because it is. It. It demands a lot. These scenes.

Jason Blitman: 15:25

Speaking of education and scholars what is everything that comes to mind when you think of James Joyce?

Lily King: 15:35

All those things that she said.

Jason Blitman: 15:38

I had a feeling.

Lily King: 15:39

definitely. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 15:41

Uhhuh,

Lily King: 15:41

of Ulysses and the snow falling on the living in the dead and the end of the dead and is what my, my high school. The English teacher taught me.

Jason Blitman: 15:55

That's so funny. I never read any James Joy. I've still never read any James Joyce. But as a theater kid, there was a musical adaptation of James Joyce's the Dead, and that is my only reference point of James Joyce, which is so weird. But after reading that section in the book, I was like, oh, I need to do A little Jo.

Lily King: 16:15

Yeah, you could start with just Arab, the Short Story Arab or the Short Story of the Dead tho those are there's a, there's an amazing essay by Jupe Lahiri from many years ago, and she begins it, it's called Sentences. The essay has the word sentences in it, and it's all about how sentences thrill her. And she quotes. A line from Arab which is about boys playing outside and they I'm not gonna be able to get it, but it's a beautiful sentence about what it feels like to be a child playing outside in the cold until you're feel numb, it's just beautiful. Yeah he's extraordinary sentence by sentence. Extraordinary.

Jason Blitman: 16:59

I would've been very impressed if you pulled out a random James Joy's sentence right now. But

Lily King: 17:05

to memory and I lost it,

Jason Blitman: 17:07

no, that is.

Lily King: 17:08

Welcome to being 60.

Jason Blitman: 17:09

That's impossible. If I remember, while I'm editing this episode, I will say the sentence at the end so people can hear it. Or I'll stick it in the show notes or something. So speaking of lists of things there, there's another list that comes up from our narrator. She talks about a list of female authors that inspired her. That would you say? Same from in the book, which again, our reader, our listeners can go read, but if there's

Lily King: 17:36

Yeah, there. Of course I don't exactly remember her list, but I would say more or less, I definitely threw in some writers that I'm maybe not all that familiar with or that I don't have that connection. I try, I wanted to separate a little bit from her taste. But mostly

Jason Blitman: 17:52

what's who? What's Lilly's taste? If you had to name one or two

Lily King: 17:56

Virginia Wolf is always, a big one Shirley Hazard. Marilyn Robinson love Elizabeth Strout Tessa Hadley. Faulkner was a huge influence me on me in college. Huge.

Jason Blitman: 18:10

That's interesting.

Lily King: 18:11

I know, I was in the south and, but I just read the sound and the Fury kind of recently, a couple years ago, and I was just blown away by it. I just. I thought that was extraordinary and I had never really understood it before.

Jason Blitman: 18:29

What inspired picking it up?

Lily King: 18:31

That's a good question. I think I would just was looking for something that would inspire me and remind me of really good writing. That's almost, it's just almost out of reach. Like you are not always confident. You understand everything that's going on in that book. And and that's exciting, and leaves room for the imagination and kind of gets your juices going. So I think that's why I picked it up.

Jason Blitman: 19:39

That's fair. I love that. You said he was a big influence on you in college. What are some other, just like his canon, is there something in particular that

Lily King: 19:48

Oh, it was Abso, abso I was obsessed with Abso Abso, which I haven't read actually since college.

Jason Blitman: 19:54

oh, that's

Lily King: 19:54

Yeah. Another one. Another one is called Toy Bean. I just worship him. Who else? Tony Morrison. I was obsessed with her in graduate school.

Jason Blitman: 20:04

I've only read one, but she's very high on my list of more. I have all of her books.

Lily King: 20:09

Yeah, beloved, I wrote my thesis on Beloved and Amazing book.

Jason Blitman: 20:13

You just talked about wanting to separate your taste from our narrator's taste a little bit. Something that she talks about doing is hiding her emotion in her fiction. Is that something that you do?

Lily King: 20:25

Oh, for sure.

Jason Blitman: 20:26

What does that look like?

Lily King: 20:28

I just, I don't always know what I feel until I write about it, and so it's a discovery. I don't always well know why I am writing about something and then I see what's happening, and I feel things, I wrote this book called Father of the Rain. It was my third novel. It was about my father and God. I had so many unarticulated feelings about him, and he was way too dangerous a man to actually say how you were feeling around, I was just, it was a pure appeasement at every single moment and that book was so helpful to me because I just. I really got to just get in there, get into all my emotions from my childhood and my, twenties and thirties and forties and just really express myself, and really say it. And I didn't need to say it to him. And by the time the book came out, he had this big stroke and I. Don't think he even knew I published a book. And so that was, probably easier for me.'Cause there would've been some repercussions there. But I think that was just really necessary to do that in some way. And writing is the way I do it. Sorry.

Jason Blitman: 21:52

I was just wondering if you two had been in touch.

Lily King: 21:54

Yes. I was like the good daughter who just stayed in touch and stayed in touch despite him not, and I would visit, he would never visit me. I would try to keep the visits very short. And then I saw a therapist who was like, you don't have to do that. What do you want to do? What do you feel like doing? I was like, oh my God, I can actually make a choice here. And so I didn't, I just stopped communicating with him. I think it took him and my stepmother probably a year to realize what was happening. And then I'd get like some messages and I was just I'm just gonna give, I think I wrote him a letter, but he saw it and it was'cause just me expressing things. He thought saw it as a, an approach and I was like, no. And then I just kept it, I didn't see him for a long time. And then he had a stroke and then I did see him, I went to the hospital'cause I was told he was gonna die, but he didn't die. But it was a, it was an opportunity for me to reconnect, but on my terms. And that's how it was until he died. And that was great.

Jason Blitman: 23:03

Thank you for sharing all of that. I ask very selfishly, because I am in the second phase of that journey right now where I've not been in communication for over five years now.

Lily King: 23:14

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 23:16

and I wonder what would I do if I get that phone call about the stroke?

Lily King: 23:20

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 23:21

And I wonder how would articulating myself on the page. Be different or cathartic or would it make a difference or matter or whatever. Yeah, it's been a long journey.

Lily King: 23:34

Wow, that is really interesting. So my mother who had left my father years and years before that, she was really freaked out by my silence, am I doing this? She's if he dies, you're gonna regret it. Which is funny because she's not that she would never, that just wasn't really her mo but she was a little concerned about me. But I will say he did die eventually. I didn't regret it at all. I did not regret it. It was just, it had to happen for me, and it didn't really seem to bother him all that much. And so I really, I just think having relationships. On your terms, or at least on equal terms. It's just really important. And I believe that therapist, when I wrote, I think I wrote him like a postcard, not exactly a letter. And she, I think she just said, what would you like him to know and not, not angry, not anything like just and I think she asked me to write it, to write it. What are the good things? Like what are the good things you would like him to know? And that's what I wrote. And that felt good too because, he knew those, I told him, and I'll always have the knowledge that, that he read that and he knew that.'cause that's what I feel like was most important. So I just say that if you wanna do that,

Jason Blitman: 25:00

Very interesting advice. I

Lily King: 25:01

I,

Jason Blitman: 25:01

that. Yeah, no, that's

Lily King: 25:03

But that is that's hard stuff. And I'm sorry.

Jason Blitman: 25:07

Listen, it is and it isn't. I think part of it is hard stuff because we're told it is Talk about love evolving relationships evolving,

Lily King: 25:17

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 25:17

That does not just happen in friendships.

Lily King: 25:20

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 25:21

and I don't think we give ourselves permission for that to change with our relatives.

Lily King: 25:27

It's very true. It's very true. It's really, you feel, at least I felt as a child, very small and I felt very small for a long time, like until, my mid forties. And it is amazing when you become your own size in these relationships. And they really do change.'cause if you change, they have to change.

Jason Blitman: 25:51

Yeah.

Lily King: 25:52

So more power to

Jason Blitman: 25:54

would. I thank you. You too. I was saying to someone, and I say this all the time, but just said it yesterday to someone else that I. Didn't feel like an adult until I realized that being an adult is just making it up as we

Lily King: 26:08

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 26:09

And none of us actually know what we're doing. And I was like, oh, now I feel like I'm in the club. We're all just figuring it out,

Lily King: 26:17

It's so true. It is so frigging true.

Jason Blitman: 26:21

Okay. Back to your writing process. You talked about perhaps going to Faulkner because the language is maybe like almost out of reach. There is so much Shakespeare and Greek stories in heart, the lover.

Lily King: 26:39

Okay, say more.

Jason Blitman: 26:42

Is this a, Is this a quiz or do you not remember, or is it.

Lily King: 26:46

I didn't get the orange, so I don't

Jason Blitman: 26:48

I know. this is what I'm saying. So there's one big Shakespeare thing that I loved so much that I don't think is a spoiler. But the, again, you may or may not even realize you did this, but the name of the house of the professor

Lily King: 27:10

Oh, okay. Yes, yes, Yes.

Jason Blitman: 27:13

And there is something about once more unto the breach

Lily King: 27:17

Wow, okay.

Jason Blitman: 27:20

scholar student.

Lily King: 27:22

Exactly. Yeah. No really truly theater kid, fiction

Jason Blitman: 27:28

my God,

Lily King: 27:29

writer.

Jason Blitman: 27:29

So funny. It is. The amount of times where I'll say something back to a writer and they're like, oh my God, yes, you're right. Look at how well that connected. But the fact that it's called the breach once more unto the breach. Is so fitting for the book. There is a Julius Caesar reference. There is multi attu brute.

Lily King: 27:53

Well,

Jason Blitman: 27:53

There are well, you know, it's a, a reference. Um, And just the concept of a tragedy right, I think comes up a lot too. So that for me was very sort of Shakespearean and. The, I think the trope of Shakespeare's comedies versus tragedies is comedies ended marriage and tragedies end in death. And it got me thinking like, oh, we all die. We're all living in a

Lily King: 28:22

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 28:25

I was like, that's terrible. So you asked me to say more. That obviously surprised you. What does it, what do you say? Hearing all of that

Lily King: 28:35

Um, uh.

Jason Blitman: 28:39

does

Lily King: 28:40

I love that. I mean, Yes. I mean, Of course Shakespeare means something to me. Not as much as I wish he did. I, I have this huge Shakespeare collection of, things that I ordered last year and I had this intention of reading absolutely everyone. And I haven't we even cracked the book. I loved I loved, reading Shakespeare in college? I've read a little since but not a whole lot. I love his sonnets.

Jason Blitman: 29:07

ML Rio was recently on the show and she was saying,'cause she was a Shakespeare scholar, she said Shakespeare really is meant to be experienced and not to be

Lily King: 29:15

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 29:16

Cause it was designed to be performed. So that's an interesting, Cut yourself a little slack.

Lily King: 29:22

Yeah. And I've seen many Shakespeare. Othello is probably one of my very favorites.

Jason Blitman: 29:28

Oh yeah. Why is that?

Lily King: 29:30

I, I don't, I, I just, I love the I I love the deception and the it's hard to make a really evil character, and I find Iago truly scary.

Jason Blitman: 29:43

Yeah. Yeah. That's fair.

Lily King: 29:46

And then obviously Hamlet and the father, I love. I probably relate the most to Hamlet just because of the broken family and the stepfather and the the sense of the power grab. I feel like my whole, childhood was a power grab by my father. And, yeah. Anyway I feel like there's a often a father and son issue in my novels that that can maybe be a little Shakespearean. That sort of tension of a father not feeling that their son is worth passing the mantle on too, feeling, which I'm interested in.

Jason Blitman: 30:31

Jumping off some of that, what does. We are all our sins remembered mean to you.

Lily King: 30:40

Ah. I don't even know if that this is true, but I feel like the first time I ever heard that was either in a letter or a short story by an old boyfriend of mine.

Jason Blitman: 30:55

Oh,

Lily King: 30:56

And so I think of him and I also feel, I think probably a little bit like Jordan in the novel like, don't gimme a fucking break. Like, Let's not um, let's not load up on, I don't know, this kind of narcissistic tendency to think that. All of your actions are so incredibly important and they're stored in your body and you carry them around and like just let it go. Just lighten up I think is maybe what I feel about that. What does it mean to you?

Jason Blitman: 31:35

I.

Lily King: 31:36

Theater kid?

Jason Blitman: 31:37

It's, I know it's interesting because I, I was like interpreting it in a multitude of ways and I was like, is it like a body keeps the score sort of situation? Is it. Is it we can't run from the mistakes we've made, the sins we've, done.

Lily King: 31:58

All right.

Jason Blitman: 31:59

I, yeah, I don't know. I think it, it it feels like this like weighty sentence that can be interpreted in different

Lily King: 32:06

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 32:07

So it's interesting to hear that it was first presented to you by an ex-boyfriend.

Lily King: 32:13

I know. And I can't really remember the context. It's strange.

Jason Blitman: 32:16

Yeah, but funny that you remember

Lily King: 32:20

It's, yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:22

Huh?

Lily King: 32:23

And this was in my thirties. It was not in college.

Jason Blitman: 32:26

Oh, okay. Were you like, why would you write such an arrogant sentence?

Lily King: 32:32

I guess I would say if we're really gonna like dish on him that

Jason Blitman: 32:36

Let's dish

Lily King: 32:37

we had a lot of time apart because I lived in Spain and he didn't, and so there were a lot of WR letters back and forth and I always felt. These letters that he wrote me were not remotely for me. They were like, they were for, they were just, they were like writing exercises for him, I just felt like I wasn't really involved. This was him writing to him, and this was him flexing for a lack of better word, and he was writing beautiful things. They weren't emotional. I think he maybe thought they were, but I just felt like that's just for him. And then we'd we broke up and then we got back together, and then we moved in together and I had his letters and he asked me if he could use them for a novel. And I was like, oh yeah, I always knew. This is what you were gonna do with those letters. And I

Jason Blitman: 33:38

Oh my God.

Lily King: 33:39

way. Are you gonna have those letters? No. And he was really mad. And weirdly, I had them, this is not the way I operate normally. I'm so chaotic and disorganized. But I had them like tied up in a bundle.

Jason Blitman: 33:54

Very classic.

Lily King: 33:55

And I opened the drawer and the bundle was untied and he had gone in and used them anyway. Granted they were his writing, but it was just something that was like so confirming. We broke up soon after that and I was like, oh yeah, I got your number.

Jason Blitman: 34:10

Oh, how interesting. And it's, yes, it's his writing, but what's the intention? The intention is for it to be your right. It's all very, that's very complicated. But that Lily is a great story for a book.

Lily King: 34:25

Oh, okay. Lemme write that down.

Jason Blitman: 34:27

Seriously.

Lily King: 34:28

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 34:29

The story of the, those letter like, come on. Oh my God. I love it. Okay. Speaking of, stories and fun things, happier things there is a fabulous card game in the

Lily King: 34:41

Oh yes, great.

Jason Blitman: 34:43

sir Ham, fun buster. Am I saying it

Lily King: 34:47

I say not that there is like a right or wrong

Jason Blitman: 34:50

No. How do you, how does Lily say it?

Lily King: 34:52

funny Buster.

Jason Blitman: 34:53

so Here come funny Buster. Yeah, Okay. It is a card game in the book. Do you like card

Lily King: 34:59

I love card. Gameses love them so much. And in fact my husband had the idea to make a, to make a deck of cards based on this.

Jason Blitman: 35:06

Oh, how fun.

Lily King: 35:07

we did, and I wish I had them to show you, but I don't have them up here. But

Jason Blitman: 35:10

And

Lily King: 35:11

sheet, so

Jason Blitman: 35:12

Yes, Grove. Put together this great instruction sheet that I will link to, In the

Lily King: 35:18

Oh, fantastic.

Jason Blitman: 35:19

go play. Sir Hinkel fun. Funny Buster, whether or not you read the book though, obviously you should read the book, but you'll learn how to play the game. How did this game come to be?

Lily King: 35:28

I have these really good friends named Joss and ect, and I met them bizarrely, Joss was. The roommate of a old boyfriend of mine. And and like I met them when I was 22 with this boyfriend. Boyfriend. And I broke up and they became my dear friends for life. And we actually own a house together and our kids grew up together and it's woo. So anyway, dad, so we're talking like 1900, basically. 19 0 1, 19 0 2. Learn this game when he was a kid and he taught it to his son, who taught it to his son. And it's basically a game, I think to, it was designed for manners, right? You have to ask in a certain way, may I please have? And then before you touch it, you have to say thank you. And and so it's like old maid, except you're collecting a whole family and it's a lot more fun. And there really can be some subterfuge and some, it, we played it a couple of nights ago with friends

Jason Blitman: 36:26

Oh my

Lily King: 36:26

we had so much fun. I just loved it so much. And we've played, been playing with my kids since they were little. And and then my friend elect, who's married to Jos, who's father and grandfather taught in the game elect went online and she did some research, which I have not been able to find, but she found a board game from the 18 hundreds. Called sir, not Hinkel, but something close, funny duster, and it was a board game and I think it had, it was very similar. So somehow I, I don't know, some, somewhere along the line. Anyway,

Jason Blitman: 37:01

In Alice Island,

Lily King: 37:03

I, yeah, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 37:04

it turned into a

Lily King: 37:05

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 37:07

Oh, that's so fascinating. So this made me think about a song that my mom used to sing to me as a kid, and I learned later that her dad sang it to her and her siblings, but he made it up.

Lily King: 37:24

Oh my gosh. Sing it.

Jason Blitman: 37:26

I, it's like, no,

Lily King: 37:27

Oh, come on, come on, come on. You know you want to.

Jason Blitman: 37:32

No, Lily, how dare you. I would. But it's been like now my youngest sister has children and sings it to them. And so it just made me think about this like very specific thing that is legacy in our family that really isn't known outside of the family. And there is. One of my absolute favorite moments in the book is related to this exact That I won't say more about. Other than this, because this clearly it has some legacy like that for you, is there anything else in your life where you're like, oh, this is mine, this is my family's, this is our family's, and no one else does this thing, whether it's a song or a game or a recipe, or.

Lily King: 38:18

Yes. Yes, we have, we definitely have l little things, but the, when I think of recipe it's not like. That nobody else has it. But in my little town that I grew up in, they put together a little recipe book, in the sixties of I, it was very, it was a town full of housewives and, they were probably really bored one day and they decided to make a cookbook. And one of the recipes in there is something called elephant ears, and it's basically a tall house chocolate chip cookie. But apparently one family that we knew down the road one day just messed it all up and they melted the butter instead of defrosted it. And they put, they didn't use any baking powder. They've used baking soda and they used they use less flour anyway. We have this recipe and it is to die for like it is makes our, we all are addicted to these cookies. My daughter comes home and

Jason Blitman: 39:14

The Accidental Cookies has its own new recipe. Oh, how fun.

Lily King: 39:18

so

Jason Blitman: 39:18

Oh, I, love

Lily King: 39:19

them as blondies. And they're really good too. And I can I can, if I think of it I can definitely leave. I can write you that and I can put

Jason Blitman: 39:28

Oh, I'll make a note to reach out about it'cause that would be so great. Although, I, I wanna keep it in your

Lily King: 39:35

Oh, that's okay.

Jason Blitman: 39:36

it's close enough. We're family now.

Lily King: 39:38

Exactly.

Jason Blitman: 39:40

Oh, I love that. And I love a chocolate chip cookie too, so I'm gonna judge really hard.

Lily King: 39:46

okay. I'm ready for it. I'm ready for it. Everybody has their own thing. Like some, like them, we have friends, Jo, actually, Jos and Elta, they bonded really early on o over their fact of their love of a really crispy chocolate chip cookie like. I don't like a crispy chocolate. Not all the way through.

Jason Blitman: 40:05

listen, I'm not gonna, if it's the only thing on the table, I will eat it

Lily King: 40:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, But it's like Chips Ahoy. Who would want that?

Jason Blitman: 40:14

yeah. No, it is not my first choice. I didn't know that there were as many songs about fares.

Lily King: 40:23

I didn't either. I literally, I was not choosing songs about fares. They just one and then the other, and then I was like, what is going on? They all came to me. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:33

and then of course, I like Googled and prepped for this, and I was like, there are. Dozens and dozens. Like we're not, it's, there are

Lily King: 40:41

you've heard of?

Jason Blitman: 40:42

I haven't necessarily heard of all of them. I've heard of some of them, but like the list on Wikipedia or wherever it Was extensive.

Lily King: 40:50

a list of songs about fares?

Jason Blitman: 40:52

Now that I've seen how many there are, yes, I can. It is a genre.

Lily King: 40:58

Oh, that is very

Jason Blitman: 40:59

God. So funny. Okay. Our narrator is a writer, as we've talked about at one point. She says, all of literature rests on the promise that we change. We grow, have epiphanies become better, understand our flaws. Do you believe that to be true?

Lily King: 41:18

No,

Jason Blitman: 41:20

Mm.

Lily King: 41:21

I don't. I, I think. That happens sometimes in literature, but it's not a given. And

Jason Blitman: 41:32

it's funny, I read it and I wanted it to be true

Lily King: 41:35

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 41:37

and I anticipated you saying yes. And my follow up question was gonna be how do we continue to believe that,

Lily King: 41:45

I know.

Jason Blitman: 41:46

right? Because I feel like it's almost. Impossible because I don't know that we have epiphanies and we don't become better, and we don't understand our flaws. I think we, some of us would like to believe that we try to, but

Lily King: 42:00

I know I want to believe it too. I really do. And I think at certain times in your life you do believe it and.

Jason Blitman: 42:08

I.

Lily King: 42:09

It's so disheartening not to. And I do think that as individuals, I, it is so very possible, is it possible as, as people, it's funny because. Oh God, I can't believe it's back to Joslyn elect again. But Joss's dad and I are very close because he went out with my husband's mother for 15 years. It's just amazing. They met separately in another country and they started going out. So

Jason Blitman: 42:41

Lily, that's another book

Lily King: 42:42

I know. And and so he and I. He is like my second dad. He's just so amazing and we have mighty arguments about this and about whether humans as a race can change whether they get better. Whether this idea of an arc toward morality or toward justice, actually does bend towards justice. And do we, are we evolving in that way? And and I always take the Pollyanna position of we absolutely are getting better. We are getting better. We are, look at how far we've come. I take her position and then he's are humans? We'll always be the same and we always have the same emotions and we don't get better or worse. We are just who we are.

Jason Blitman: 43:31

As a group,

Lily King: 43:33

As a group. Yeah. What do you think?

Jason Blitman: 43:37

I am going on year five of therapy.

Lily King: 43:43

Very good.

Jason Blitman: 43:44

I feel like I've changed exponentially.

Lily King: 43:47

Mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 43:47

Have put in the work and I've watched my fellow man and woman and they man not,

Lily King: 43:58

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:59

So it's, it is hard because on one hand I'm like, okay, if we all, it's like recycling. If we all just do this one thing, but we can't,

Lily King: 44:09

know. I know. And we have all the resources right now as a species To do the right thing, to live communally, to all thrive. I really believe that we have those resources and we don't do it. And I mean, it's so easy to point to individuals and to billionaires. But it's much bigger than that. It, it, It's, yeah. It's something about our nature. I,

Jason Blitman: 44:41

I think if the butterfly effect was clearer. We would be better if we could see what incremental change could do. I think it would be better because I think so many people believe that they, their little thing can't make a big difference. And I think

Lily King: 45:02

Yeah, no, I think that is very true.

Jason Blitman: 45:06

And our last few minutes together on a similar note, Eternalism. Presentism, do you wanna explain to our listeners the difference?

Lily King: 45:15

Yes. Two theories of time. That I heard on a podcast eternalism is this idea that everything is happening all at once, all the time. And that, our little human brains can't really process that. And so we've created time to, to be able to process that. But that it's eternal and then it's all at once. And then Presentism is another theory that is all there is, is the present. Everything else is absolutely dead and gone. The, obviously the future hasn't happened yet. The past is gone, never to be returned there. There's is just, it's just only what we have right now. And that's it. And that's time.

Jason Blitman: 46:06

So where do you land?

Lily King: 46:07

I know. So it was interesting because in the podcast, and I think I put this kind of in the book like this, is that the person was asked that and and he said I'm leaning towards PS Presentism. And I was so surprised because if you have a choice between always having everything. And just having this moment that's so fleeting, you can't even touch it. And I don't know, it makes me, make me feel unhinged, so I just have to, for my own wellbeing, believe in eternalism. But we get it all the time. All the time that everybody's here. My mom is back, and everyone's here. And it feels more like that. My mom died nine and a half years ago. I don't feel like she's gone. I feel her all the time,

Jason Blitman: 46:54

Yeah.

Lily King: 46:54

so I don't know what does that mean.

Jason Blitman: 46:58

A, a former life of mine, I worked in theater for young audiences, so professional theater for young people. And it is known to have a bit of a stigma because it's just for kids in quotation marks. But there was there's a playwright and an author named Steven Dietz who wrote this terrific article about how. We are all the young people that we once were inside of us. And so there's no reason why we can't also appreciate that. And it made me think about our life as like a snowball rather than a line Because it reminded me like, oh yeah, I still giggle at the same things I giggled at when I was a kid. You still hear your mother saying that thing to you every time you do that thing that she rolled her eyes, and so like how can that not be there?

Lily King: 47:48

I know

Jason Blitman: 47:49

it has just become, so I'm sort of in a camp of somewhere in the middle of of what is present in past. Rolled in the ball looked like sort of rolling towards the future that I, that that's whatever that, Whatever that is. I know. Well, It is now. It is now. Lily, let's name it.

Lily King: 48:12

Okay, let's give it a

Jason Blitman: 48:13

God. So as heard on gay's reading, everyone, this is the theory. Just call me Isaac Newton so silly. Lily King, thank you so much for being here.

Lily King: 48:24

Oh, thank you so much. It was so fun. I wanna go for another hour.

Jason Blitman: 48:29

I know we certainly could. Everyone go get your copy of Heart The Lover. It is out now. Wherever you get your books and enjoy the gorgeous, if not vulgar packaging that it comes in. Thanks, Lily.

Lily King: 48:45

Thank you. Bye.

Jason Blitman: 48:47

I. Dustin Tao, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Dustin Thao: 48:54

Hi. Thank you for having me.

Jason Blitman: 48:56

Thank you for being my guest gay reader today. Such a, an honor. I am so excited for you to tell the people about your book, but before you do, I have to know, what are you reading?

Dustin Thao: 49:10

Actually, I am in the middle of Teo Jenkin re's newest book atmosphere. So I'm, I've crossed like the 150 page mark. Into the romance section. It's a PHI Um, and I'm really loving it so far. I'm like, of course I think for everyone Taylor Jenkin to read is like an Autobi author, and she definitely is. She definitely is for me. And the thing about her, this specific book is apparently it's supposed to really make you cry at the end, but what I've read so far it's I really enjoy it so far, but there's i'm not there yet, but, so I started reading reviews, which I like to do, and the review says, oh no, it's going to hit you at the end. And which like I'm prepared for because I always go into a book saying this is not gonna make me cry, even though she's done it before with Evelyn Hugo, which is probably Three favorite books of all time.

Jason Blitman: 49:58

oh.

Dustin Thao: 50:00

that it's going to happen.

Jason Blitman: 50:02

Okay. Are you, do you say, I doubt this book is gonna make me cry because you're not an easy crier?

Dustin Thao: 50:09

I am not an easy crier. Um, yeah, the last book, I would say that it I feel like it only happens once in a blue moon. I would say once every, three or four years. The last one, people often ask, they like to ask me, what's the last book that me cry? And for sure it still is short story. The paper Menagerie Kevin l.

Jason Blitman: 50:30

Oh.

Dustin Thao: 50:31

It is it's one of those things again where everyone online, everyone on Twitter was saying, this book is, this short story will make you cry so hard. But the thing about it, it's only like 15 pages. And so I went in there thinking there's no way any person could convince anyone me to cry in less than like in 15 pages. And

Jason Blitman: 50:53

short.

Dustin Thao: 50:54

so you go in as a challenge. And at the end I was, I've never cried harder in any book. Even Bridge Toia, which is like the first book that like, like I remember that got me into like sad books. I would say like that short 15 page short story. The paper imaginary is so beautifully done. And every now and then I go back and I reread it just to understand like how he did this. Yeah, and I imagine that's how people enter my books, they're like, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work.

Jason Blitman: 51:25

I love that you may or may not have realized that you just, like pseudo popped your collar whilst saying that

Dustin Thao: 51:33

no,

Jason Blitman: 51:34

people do when they go into my books,

Dustin Thao: 51:35

I did. No, Probably like a nervous tick if anything.

Jason Blitman: 51:38

funny. No, I loved that. That's so funny. I almost wish we can we should do like a follow up conversation for me to go read the short story and then

Dustin Thao: 51:48

Oh my gosh.

Jason Blitman: 51:49

tell you whether or not I cried. What's so funny though is you just said Bridge to Terra Bethia was the book that got you into sad books. So is that like a. Is it a style, a book you love? Do you go into a book like wanting to cry? This is, this feels very specific, Dustin.

Dustin Thao: 52:08

It does. And it's so funny'cause people like to ask me. That's another question, like, why do you write, why do you like sad books so much? And like I always say that I genuinely, it's not that I go looking like it's not that I go looking for sad books, Happens to be the ones that I remember the most.

Jason Blitman: 52:26

Oh, that's interesting.

Dustin Thao: 52:28

it's the stories that like I guess have the most lasting impact. Because I always believe as a writer, I believe that to grieve over a character is to know that, you loved them and that they felt real to you. And I think that's one of the Challenges of writing is to make a person within a book feel like a friend or a neighbor or someone you know. And when that person dies in the book. It feels that you've lost him in real life. And I don't believe like a lot of authors can execute it perfectly, if And so I always go in wondering like with that type of mindset.

Jason Blitman: 53:10

I have a similar thought, but about books making me laugh because I think it's really hard. Similar to tears without tone, without, additional texture to make you laugh just from reading something on the page. And there are. A handful of books that come to mind where I remember just like laughing out loud, pretty consistently. And similarly, I have a handful of books that I remember really crying at the end of a book.

Dustin Thao: 53:40

no, I totally agree with you on humor. Humor is also just as challenging. Like you have to be like a comedian in real life, telling a good joke

Jason Blitman: 53:48

I, yeah.

Dustin Thao: 53:49

in a book is like writing, like standup, and that's something like one day I guess bucket list is do one standup set and see how that goes.

Jason Blitman: 53:57

Oh yeah.

Dustin Thao: 53:58

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 54:00

Do you consider yourself to be funny or is that just an aspiration?

Dustin Thao: 54:03

I Would, I it's one of those things where you can't say that you yourself are funny. Someone else has to say it. It's like saying, I might as well say I'm a nice guy. You know what I mean? It's that's I hope that it's funny and I would say that I hope I'm funny. I hope the jokes land. Will say I will say onto like my newest book that's coming out in two weeks this month. you found Oliver is, uh, the book that is the funniest is It's most entertaining and I feel like there was a shift, I will say, as I was last year when my second book came out, I went on tour and and it was an international one. It was fun, it was actually my first ever tour and I always had this mindset. They're like, oh, everyone, love, you've reached Sam. It blew up on TikTok. It like sold a million copies. Everyone must want sad books from me, they want every book to become even sadder. And that was the second book. And it was like, um, I probably killed more people than I should. And then and I, and people asked me what I'm working on, I said, and working on Oliver's story, which In the revisions of, and everyone was said to me though we don't want it to be that sad. Like, where's our happy ending? We want things to work out and come together and we don't want killing off all of our favorite characters. And I said, so you got, wait a minute. I paused. I was like, pause. So you don't want it more sad? And they're like, the entire audience was like, no, stop killing people. And so I, so I was like, okay. Like I'm glad I got to, that's one of the nice things about meeting readers in person Seeing what they want, what they have to say in their opinions because like you. As everyone, social media, influencer, author, you have an imaginary audience that you are like talking to inside your head. And to see them in real life and see that they're like they're wanting something else from you, which was nice and refreshing. And so Oliver, I will say though is I say now,'cause they do want, I want this like happily ever after. And I say technically it's not a happily ever after. But is the happiest of the three that I've written because it's harder. It's harder than I thought. always said that for me, happy endings are unrealistic. You know? It's like, when does your crush ever like you back? Let's be honest. pivoting.

Jason Blitman: 56:19

unpack that? Do you have, do you. For the listeners, what is you, what is your elevator pitch for, you've found Oliver?

Dustin Thao: 56:28

Oh, so you found Oliver, for those who don't know, is the spinoff of you for H Sam and it takes place exactly One year later after a year after Sam's death, and it falls. His best friend Oliver, who we realize. Has still been texting him after all this time, even though he doesn't get a response. And one day on the anniversary of Sam's death, Oliver makes a decision to delete Sam's number. And as he's doing this, he accidentally calls it instead and someone else picks up the phone. And he realizes in that moment that this stranger has been reading every message he sent over this past year. Which basically says everything he's felt about Sam, all his, all the things he never got to say. eventually those two continue texting each other and slowly they developed this connection and eventually decide to meet up. But they realize that they live in different timelines. So it's a time slip story. I've always wanted to write and it's also is a standalone, so you don't have to read Sam before it.

Jason Blitman: 57:48

I'm about 80% into you found Oliver. And so I don't know how it ends, but I do know that it does stand alone.

Dustin Thao: 57:58

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 57:59

And I

Dustin Thao: 57:59

Okay. Okay,

Jason Blitman: 58:00

wish I wasn't talking to you so I

Dustin Thao: 58:02

not at the end. not at the end yet, so let me know. I always like, my favorite parts about writing a book is writing the ending This book follows Oliver, which the best friend, but one thing I do want to say is that I think it's different from the others is Oliver is my first, I hope, likable character. He's fun, he's funny, he's flirty as opposed to characters like Julie. So the thing about Julie is is, she's famously unlikable, It's canonized, I would say, because the first week I always tell the story, the first week that you've reached down came out literally first week. I've never done an event. I was, went to a book festival, my first ever panel, and the panel was called the Unlikable. I was put in, I was put in with a bunch of fantasy authors, and it was just me about my book on grief. And then the moderator goes, so who's the villain of your story? And everyone's oh, this assassin, this like evil wizard who kills everyone. And it comes to me and I just go I guess it's like my main character, Julie. And then well. What about her? And I said her boyfriend dies. And the moderator goes how does that make her the villain? And I go I guess she just didn't take it very well. And so that of course Julie's the way she mourns and grieves is am mirror of the way that I agree. So it's like a piece of me. And I did freak out like thinking oh my God, I wrote a character that everybody hated. But over time I I, and I realized those were, but those are just certain amount of opinions that I was so focused on.'cause eventually I got more messages, dms from people saying never connected more to a character and I've lost a person in my life. And I did know how to express it into words until I read your book. I and I saw myself. So it's kinda like that is I think why I kind of gravitate towards these more characters and not necess, it's not necessarily like a made for everyone. And I will say I went into my second book with this challenge of okay, I'm gonna write a likable character. And for Eric in my second book, and he was the one that cared as closest to me. It's based off, like personal life, personal, my personal experience in like gay culture, living in Chicago and based off of real things. And everyone turns out he's un unlikeable too because, and then what the critique for him is how does, how could someone make decisions that are just so stupid? This is unbelievable. I was like, oh yeah, it's fiction. But yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:37

totally fiction. I didn't make any of these decisions ever. that you say that because not dissimilar from what you were saying about a happy ending, being unrealistic, I think. What does a quote unquote likable character even mean? And what is and is that realistic for a character who is flawed and who is on a journey of self-discovery? Because that is also just how we're describing a person, right? I think we're all on our own journeys, and I think, I don't know I don't want that to come across as me saying we're all just unlikable creatures, but maybe we are.

Dustin Thao: 1:01:13

I know. I agree. If a character is too perfect, that makes no wrong decision. They don't feel real to me. You Of my own friends as some of the terrible mistakes they've made regarding dating or dating. Like you, like I always say we always have that friend that used you the same story about the same guy. Just wanna shake him and go, we've had this conversation,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:35

Are you ever that friend.

Dustin Thao: 1:01:37

Yes, but I am healing and had a character development,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:43

and I did not mean that as a gotcha question. I meant that as a embracing that we're all flawed.

Dustin Thao: 1:01:48

it's, It's a good question. And I will say, of course, goes without saying my books, they're in the realm of magical realism, and they are of course works of fiction. But I think like some of the best stories come from things that are true. And it's the same in this book as my others is like I still pull from real experiences I made this kind of funny decision to name some of the characters after my exes. And I had done it once. I had done it once in my second book. And in this book it's'cause I'm bad with names and I'll just fill in a name to the people around me. And sometimes they just stick. So there are three X's and you

Jason Blitman: 1:02:36

that's why your characters end up being unlikable because

Dustin Thao: 1:02:39

but they're real. I do, I will say for those who I don't have the book with me, interestingly enough, but the last line of my acknowledges, my acknowledgements is I I thank all my exes And I say if you stumble across this book and think you saw your name, no, you didn't.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:58

No you didn't. They definitely did not. Oh, that's so funny. If the chapter of your life right now had a title, what would it be?

Dustin Thao: 1:03:08

My life currently. Let's see. I, I, what's funny is I do think of my life. In chapters or eras. And I guess right now I, so I saw this TikTok and it's what's funny is it's about it talks about certain people and how they imagine their lives and they talk about themselves and the third person, right? Almost like a persona. And I realized, oh my God, I do this. At first I thought it was silly. I was like, oh, that's so silly. Who does? I said, wait a minute, I do this. And right now I call this era New York, Dustin. So there's, which is my New York era. I've been living for four years and before that I lived four years in Chicago when I was doing my PhD and I So that was Chicago, Dustin. And so I guess this chapter currently that I'm living in. New York, Dustin, I'm in my, um, high rise apartment. You know, I, I will say it's my most social chapter, um, but I'm still in my single chapter as well.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:12

Uhhuh,

Dustin Thao: 1:04:12

i'm in my single chapter it's very social I'm going out a lot and I meet a lot of new friends and it's my first time I would say, like Being a part of a gay community, which is so easy to do in New York City. I will say, A part of everywhere that I lived I would say Chicago, Dustin, like he, he probably had that was one of the worst chapters just because I, I always say I, I hate Chicago, but my friends say, Dustin, you lived in Chicago during the pandemic, which is true. So I, I

Jason Blitman: 1:04:42

I was gonna, I,'cause I also went to school in Chicago and I loved Chicago.

Dustin Thao: 1:04:46

Yeah. So we had and,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:49

lived in Lakeview, which, you know a stones throw from Boystown. I.

Dustin Thao: 1:04:53

yeah, exactly. My second book has a specific Boystown chapter. To go like right before everything, closed down. Yeah. My experience with Chicago was so different. My second book actually takes place. Oh, I will say this. A lot of my books when I pick settings are inspired by exactly where I live or have lived. One was Washington, small town, middle of nowhere, Washington state surrounded by mountains, which is how where I was born and grew up. And that was, you've reached Sam and my second book was originally set in New York City and it was because that's where I wanted to live, but I was in Chicago at the time and I hated Chicago. But as I was writing it what I did like in this time where you're not allowed to hang out with anyone was I just wandered the streets of Chicago. I wandered around the Chicago Theater, I wa and and that'cause that was the first places to go because they kept the light on and it felt like at least it felt alive and that felt people were inside and I learned to. Loved Chicago by having these imaginary experiences in my head of what I could do. The book became set in Chicago. And as as you may know when Har is here is about falling in love with a guy who isn't even there. And so I'm in New York era right now, which is fun and I think that translates into Oliver

Jason Blitman: 1:06:13

Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Dustin Thao: 1:06:16

Yeah, but I, my hope

Jason Blitman: 1:06:17

for your New York chapter.

Dustin Thao: 1:06:19

yeah it's fun. And I'm hoping we're gonna move into a romance chapter. I think,'cause what's funny is everyone says, Dustin, like, how are you single? You're a romance author. And I go, do you guys read my books? The first guy's dead. The second guy is imaginary. And the third guy lives in a different timeline. And they're like, oh, there's going to be a happy ever after. Soon

Jason Blitman: 1:06:42

Should we, can we manifest? What are we looking for? What are we could put things out into the world. We want a loving, committed relationship. I have lofty aspirations of being a matchmaker. So you'll, you could fill out my questionnaire.

Dustin Thao: 1:06:58

oh my gosh. I would love to,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:59

I don't really have a questionnaire, but if I did I would happily put you in my roster of people that I would help find love for.

Dustin Thao: 1:07:06

Okay, this is our matchmaking service.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:10

I know that's,

Dustin Thao: 1:07:11

I'll be a

Jason Blitman: 1:07:11

a dream. I know. I do. I love, love. What can I say? Do you consider yourself romantic?

Dustin Thao: 1:07:18

Yes, I would hope so. I think I've been on, I will say I've been on three dates this year, as in like, uh, three different people. I do enjoy planning dates. and, um, because something is about my books is I always say that like I have characters experiencing experience, things that I wish I could, you know, My dream is like to go to Japan, for example. So in book two I gotta write a chapter where they got to go to Japan and do, and I did wrote, I spent research like a week researching all the things that I wish I could do and. Yeah. So in Oliver's story, bet with love story between him and this astronomy student named Ben every time they got a meetup, I gotta plan this cute date for them. And that was fun to do. And I think that's Of me coming through.'cause end of the day, my books are romances at its core. So yeah. I'd like to still think I'm romantic.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:15

Yeah. All right. Anyone who's listening who wants to have a great date planned, you can email hello@gaysreading.com. We can make a little introduction. Oh my God, I love it. Dustin Tout, thank you so much for being my guest gay reader today, and I am so excited for everyone to check out you've found Oliver. Thank you for being here. Have a great rest of your day.

Dustin Thao: 1:08:37

course. It was so nice chatting with you.

1:08:39

Lily. Dustin, thank you so much for being here. Everyone, a pleasure. Thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I will see you next week. Bye.