0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have Megha Majumdar talking to me about her new book, A Guardian and a Thief, which of course has been, nominated for the Kirkus Prize, the National Book Award. Um, came out. Like a bang and only today is getting released. So, so excited for her. And my guest, gay reader today is Brandon Taylor and his book Minor Black Figures also comes out today. Both of their bios can be found in the show notes and I, the, this episode, the two of them. It is an embarrassment of riches, y'all. I love that I got to talk to them, each really terrific writers in their own right. And, uh, yeah, I'm excited for you, for you to hear this conversation. It's a busy week for gay's reading, episode today. Tomorrow the 15th is, also another episode because we announced the November Gaze Reading Book Club Pick through Stora, and my episode with that author drops tomorrow. And then on Friday we have a, what are you reading episode And my guests plural for that. Um. Are really awesome and it's such a great, really fun conversation too. So super busy week here on Gay's Reading, and I am as always, really glad to have you here with us, um, because we're dropping so many episodes, I highly recommend subscribing and liking and following wherever you get your podcast so that you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. You could follow us on social media. We are at gay's reading over on Instagram and. I say this because it is an indie podcast to help the algorithm, to help other people find gaze reading. If you can take a moment to, as I just said, like, and subscribe, but leave a review, preferably five stars, and if you have something nice to say, please feel free to do so. I've been getting some emails and some posts and some dms. And it means so much because. I am not used to working in a medium where I don't get immediate gratification, uh, with a background in theater. I'm so used to, you know, sitting in, in an audience with people. So it's always nice to hear from the folks who have listened, and so thank you to all of you who have done so. These episodes are over on YouTube. Books are out now, and the information about the All Story Book Club and all the other things can be found in the show notes. If you're new to Gay's reading, there's a huge back catalog of episodes that I hope you take a moment to check out. There is some fantastic conversations and those are all the things. Without further ado, here is Megha Majumdar and Brandon Taylor

Jason Blitman: 3:29

How's your day so far?

Megha Majumdar: 3:31

It's pretty good. It's a little chaotic because my. 4-year-old is at preschool, but I have a seven week old baby as well. So, He has no routine. Um, my parents are visiting, so they are watching him right now. Um, and my husband just had to go back to work starting yesterday. So just a lot of different rhythms that we are getting used to.

Jason Blitman: 4:00

And you're about to give birth to a different baby. What a time for you, Mecca. I can't believe it. I am very honored for you to take your time to spend it with me on Kay's reading. Welcome.

Megha Majumdar: 4:14

No, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Jason Blitman: 4:18

I am so excited to have you here. I we'll talk about the book in a second. Yeah. You're what the whole parenting whilst. Doing 800 other things, a thing is not a part of my life yet. And so I am, it's very admirable that you're able to, or at least the perception, is that you're able to juggle all the things.

Megha Majumdar: 4:44

I feel like, you know, people, people do it. I mean, People do it and. More chaotic circumstances. This feels, I think when I'm feeling grumpy, I feel like, oh, this is a lot. But I try to be grateful that this is a lot, Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:04

Is there anything in particular that sort of traditionally makes you feel grumpy? Or is it just the regular woes of life?

Megha Majumdar: 5:12

I think what makes me feel grumpy is feeling like my time is being wasted. I'm very prickly about how I use my time and when I have a perception that my time is being wasted, I feel very grumpy. Does that resonate with you at all?

Jason Blitman: 5:29

It resonates so much with me and also. I'm like I'm rummaging through my brain like what I do and don't wanna talk about or give away and like the order in which we talk about things. But what I will say, both related to the book and related to life in general and exactly what you're talking about, something that has been on my mind a lot recently is how time is a thief.

Megha Majumdar: 5:57

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 5:58

So it's already a thief, and so if it's also stealing other things from you, then like it's even more frustrating and of course an

Megha Majumdar: 6:09

Yeah. That's a beautiful way to put it though. That time is a thief. It does. It does. Steal everything away eventually. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I feel is a bit of an undercurrent in the book, in, in the book, A Guardian and a Thief that is out now, wherever you get your books. What is your elevator pitch for the book? I.

Megha Majumdar: 6:33

A guardian and a thief is a novel, which is set in a near future, kta India, which is my hometown, where I'm from, and. It's set in a situation of food scarcity and severe, um, heat. And in this situation, two families who are trying to protect their own children come into conflict.

Jason Blitman: 7:00

Yeah, me is reminiscent of Katie Kid's audition. It is

Megha Majumdar: 7:07

I need to read audition.

Jason Blitman: 7:10

You do.

Megha Majumdar: 7:11

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 7:11

It's a terrific book. And it is also reminiscent of Chris Boland's The reason why I'm making these comparisons is because they're all three. Relatively slight books that could be read in a sitting or two. But pack such a punch. And there is a general simplicity about their, like basic storyline, but the metaphor and the meaning behind everything is so deep. And there's, and it makes you asks, it makes you ask a lot of questions in all of these books. So that's they're all these like interesting. Cousins of each other, much like our glasses.

Megha Majumdar: 7:52

I love that you mentioned havoc because I just met Chris a few days ago. We did an event together and we exchanged copies of our books. So I just got a copy of Havoc.

Jason Blitman: 8:03

That is so weird. That's weird. And have it came out a while ago at this point. So it's so weird that you should have met Chris. He's darling. I love him.

Megha Majumdar: 8:14

he was amazing.

Jason Blitman: 8:15

But yeah, so it'll be interesting. You'll read it and be like, Jason, what the hell are you thinking? I don't know what you're talking about, but I also think maybe you'll understand.

Megha Majumdar: 8:24

I am excited to read it.

Jason Blitman: 8:26

And also there's something about at the end of the day, the book is a morality tale. Thinking back to your childhood, I guess were there, did the concept of fables. Have or folktales have an impact on you as a young person, or are there pieces that you remember?

Megha Majumdar: 9:19

That is a beautiful question. I don't think anybody has ever asked me that question before, but now that you're asking it, I'm thinking. Back to folktales that I used to read, and I'm sure I read a lot of, I read a lot of fairytales. I read a lot of Hansel and Gretel and Heidi and that kind of thing. And I'm sure that the combination of thinking through morals, what is the right thing to do? Thinking through protection of your loved ones and thinking through really grim situations where the worst can happen. It's all coming together for me. Wow. You that was just a question which unlocked something.

Jason Blitman: 10:07

Oh, I'm very glad to hear that. I actually, I was reading through some some Indian folktales yesterday because I was like, I guess I wasn't really my, my fable and folktale, history is, slightly unclear in my brain of what stories are from where. And I guess it makes total sense that there are versions of the same stories that take place around the world using different cultural touchpoints from different places around the world. But on the very first page of this book one of our protagonists ma talks about. A thief that she could see from her window or where in theory but also is described as a thief. So on page one, you are really setting us up for this duality. What is that like basically on page one telling us that you can't trust this character.

Megha Majumdar: 11:16

I don't think that's true though, because I think I. I am trying to set up on page one is that you do trust this character and also look, here's this hidden aspect of her, which will be revealed, you know, so. She's not, she's not set up As a villain, and she's not set up as a saint. She is just a mother. And think about the people in your life whom you trust, who also probably hold secrets. Yes. You are dying to say something.

Jason Blitman: 11:53

I am dying to say something. Because it's like a, I feel like I'm projecting the, the rest of my read on page one, having read the whole book, but re what? Taking what you just said, I think really what you're doing is. up a distrust in our perception.

Megha Majumdar: 12:17

That's a great read. A, a kind of. Destabilization so that you do not expect characters to be one or the other.

Jason Blitman: 12:26

Exactly. Right, right, right. So, So you're, it is not about the trust of your of a character. It is about. What do we, can we believe what we're reading? Can we believe what we're seeing? What does the world, both in the book, but also in the worlds that we live in?

Megha Majumdar: 12:42

Yeah. Wow. That is such a perceptive read. Thank you for reading so attentively and generously and, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 12:51

My pleasure. But we're, this is also, I clearly said the wrong thing first, and we unpacked it. We, and we're having a literary discussion right now. That's what it's all about. Okay, so we touched a little bit on, thief, but what the book is called A Guardian, end of Thief. What does it mean to you to be a Guardian?

Megha Majumdar: 13:10

Great question. You know, I. So one thing I will say is that for a long time when I was trying to write this book, I was actually following a child character. So for a long time, the main character was a child who was maybe 10 or 11 years old, and I Following this child through this climate wrecked world. This world of food scarcity where this child was trying to find food and I was trying to make that plot work And it just wasn't working. It was failing in all kinds of ways. And then I had my son in 2021, and that really. The force of love that you feel for your child, Ferocity of that love, it made me think about who is this child's mother? What happens if I think more carefully about the guardians in this book? And I think to me, the meaning of being a guardian became really complex because I think we might assume that being a guardian is about love and protection and these are noble ideals. And therefore when they are translated into acts, they're noble acts. But I started thinking about what happens if. This love gains a manifestation, which is vicious. What do you do when that ideal in practice becomes something mean or sly or harmful? What if your love for your family comes up against? The love that other people have for their families, or think about yourself as a human being in your community and yourself as a human being within your family. What if those identities clash? What do you do then?

Jason Blitman: 15:23

And it's also, there is an element of every man for himself, but there's also a but that seems very selfish and some of these people. It's every family for themself and what they would do to protect those they are guardians of or those they love. We, how do I wanna ask this question? There is this different circumstances. Make us different versions of ourselves in front of different people. How does that manifest for you in your real life?

Megha Majumdar: 16:01

I.

Jason Blitman: 16:02

When are you a guardian? When are you a thief? When are you different versions of Mecca that we may not see ever?

Megha Majumdar: 16:11

I think so one of the things that I was thinking about is we make these choices, right? So I have the sense of myself as a moral person, I want to do the right thing. But I also feel that I make choices that are limited by the networks that I live within. I participate in systems which exploit other people, think about where our fruits and vegetables come from, and think about the systems within which we participate, where people are exploited and made to work for very little money. reading this article a while ago about shrimp boats in Southeast Asia and how a lot of the shrimp in the US comes from Southeast Asia, and the people who work on these boats are often not paid, Just forced to work on these boats. And I like shrimp. I eat shrimp you so at what point does my. Sense of myself as a moral participant in this world, collapse and give way to something else, so I buy the bag of shrimp, dismissing the long chain of people who have brought it to me What I want. I privilege my comfort. I privilege my wish to eat something delicious. And have a meal with my family, Without asking too many questions, and so that's just one example. But think about all the decisions that we make, like the choices that we make, where we choose to live, how we choose to live, who we support, what we buy, what we read, what we subscribe to. There are so many layers of moral choices underneath all of these. Decisions. And so I'm very aware that I make decisions that I probably if really pressed, I cannot defend, I make them,

Jason Blitman: 18:15

It's interesting that you bring up the like, long chain of getting to the shrimp. Because my husband and I, it's funny that we're having this conversation today because we were just looking at an electric vehicle yesterday and the numbers didn't work out for us to buy it. We have been hemming and hawing because Teslas are so cheap right now. And we morally don't want to buy a Tesla, but we are trying to do the mental math of if we buy it used and the money doesn't go to Elon Musk, does that make it better? But if we're, if we use a Tesla charging station, then he, that money does go to him. But because that chain is shorter. It is easier for more people to see the moral dilemma, but because the chain isn't quite as long, because really then you start thinking about it and you're like, okay, but what about oil companies? And it's you talking about the systems in which we participate. It's okay, I also. Buy, produce at Trader Joe's, but I don't know the morality of where that comes from, so it's like you're talking about shrimp. Okay. If you choose to buy the shrimp at the grocery store that uses solar to, to make the, to light their warehouse, does that make it slightly morally better than not. But the shrimp farming is still a problem. So it's very complicated.

Megha Majumdar: 19:55

It is so complicated, and you brought up oil. There was this magnificent novel, uh, few years ago by Lydia Keesling called Mobility, um, which is all about a woman who is trying to. Figure out right or wrong of working within the oil industry and weighing the kind of living she can make while participating in this system, which she doesn't agree with. Thought that was a fantastic book. Also about very similar kinda dilemmas. And so We make these choices in our daily lives and what fiction lets me do is put huge pressure on characters, right? The That we don't face right now yet.

Jason Blitman: 20:44

Do you feel that pressure personally?

Megha Majumdar: 20:50

I don't feel it yet, but I feel that it might be coming you A future where, the effects of climate change are very present We do have to think about things like, how will agriculture be affected? We already saw with the egg shortage a few months ago here in the US it was such a surreal thing to go to the grocery store and, a carton of eggs was, I think 10 or$11

Jason Blitman: 21:19

if it was in stock,

Megha Majumdar: 21:20

If it was in stock exactly, We would go to Trader Joe's and they had limits of, I think you could buy two per person and they would get sold out if you didn't go first thing in the morning. So that kind of shortage. And then what happens, people start buying two'cause they want Yep.

Jason Blitman: 21:39

yes. And then of course the follow up is what are you doing with two cartons of eggs? Why do you need those? Like suddenly, if someone tells you can't have more than x, like, suddenly, desperately need that number, which makes zero sense,

Megha Majumdar: 21:51

Yeah, what if you just, wanna eat seven eggs for breakfast? Jason,

Jason Blitman: 21:56

well. It makes me think of Guan and Beauty and the Beast. In his song, he sings about how every morning he eats five dozen eggs or whatever. It's oh, I guess Guan needs all those eggs.

Megha Majumdar: 22:09

beauty And the Beast. Oh my God, I haven't thought about that for a while.

Jason Blitman: 22:13

that's so funny. Talking about the the presentness. Of facing these challenges because at the moment climate change is, feels removed to some degree. Yeah. You're like, oh, okay. It's warmer longer or colder long, whatever. But it's not, you're not looking around and fires aren't burning along the Hudson on a daily basis. So it's, there's a. It's slightly, it's your face. What you're facing is slightly different. It, all of this also too makes me think about just Robinhood and the fallacy of Robinhood as a concept. And it's like Robinhood is doing something bad for something good. Does that make it better? And I don't, and I think the answer is no. But also it's but is it breaking down a system? I dunno. These are all of the, I've been sitting with this book for a long time and I am, it's a puzzlement, I tell you.

Megha Majumdar: 23:25

I'm glad that you are. Sitting with it, and I'm glad that it's worth sitting with because, with the book like the state of Puzzlement is great. You know, it's kind What you want is for somebody to join you in that puzzlement, for somebody to join you in that state of asking questions and. Feeling that the questions being asked are vital, It is meaningful to you to ask the questions and think about a present which is not yet present, but may well become our reality very soon. So Yeah maybe we could think of, books as invitations to puzzlement. I love that.

Jason Blitman: 24:07

I think that is where the comparison to audition and have it come from is they're it's again, simple in its big picture, but also very deep overall and makes you really think a lot. In the book it said honesty is a lie. Lies are the lifeblood of the world. What does that mean to you and how did you, how did that come to you?

Megha Majumdar: 24:37

I was thinking a lot about how as a child we're taught, to be honest, and we're taught that being honest is a trait which will carry you far in life. And then you grow up and you understand that the people in power. Actually occupy those positions of power and, amass great wealth because they do not follow values like honesty at all. Um, there's a great deal of lying happening among people who are in power all over the world. And you think about. What is the value of what do we do with the gap between how we tell our children the world is how they should behave how they should treat others. And then you grow up and you see that well, the people who are quote unquote victorious in our society, the people who appear to be on top and have great power or proximity to power. They're the ones who discarded those values. So why are we teaching our children that the world works in a way that it actually doesn't work? Or is it that we want them to see what the ideal is so that they can tilt the world in that direction away from how it is now? What do we do with that?

Jason Blitman: 26:14

That as a concept stresses me out so much because it puts so much pressure on getting. Heard mentality, like it's you need a lot in order to tilt the world. There's another quote in the book that just says, take what you want, or others will take it. And it's but again, it's a morality question of but. But I want there to be enough for everyone. But if I don't take what I want, then I'm not gonna get it. It's a zero sum game. And frankly, if I leave it there and someone else doesn't take it, then it's left on the table. So it's this whole stupid, not, it's not stupid, but like it's becomes this real moral quandary. And that's, one of the first things I said to you is this book is a morality tale, right?

Megha Majumdar: 27:00

Yeah. So glad that you picked up on these lines and they meant something to you. Because I think those lines are me thinking through the many contradictions that each of us contain.

Jason Blitman: 27:15

Yeah.

Megha Majumdar: 27:16

In what situations will we be generous and kind to others, and in what situations will we be selfish and ungenerous? Um, and which. Which way benefits us or is benefit even the wrong way to think about it? There is the way, there's the way in which we want to live and there's the way in which the world is set up and the world kind of puts pressure on us to behave in particular matters. And it's hard to know what the right thing to do is. How do we make those choices?

Jason Blitman: 27:56

And it's interesting too,'cause it then there's also like the difference between want and need and, need versus something even greater than a need. Something that's, it's a survival necessity. I guess like a need versus a necessity. Yeah. Which like again, circles me back to just thinking about fables and foot tails. For me it's just like the tortoise and the hare always rings true to me. Slow and steady wins the race. And it's like you can't, you have to worry about yourself and you can't think about the other things that the other people are doing. And yeah, it had me just thinking a lot about these sort of basic things that we learn as young people. That we don't always see them interpreted on a larger scale. And I think this is a version of a simple thing that we might learn in childhood at a scale that we can understand in a real life situation. It's not about a tortoise and a hair running a race.

Megha Majumdar: 28:58

That's a good way to put it. And It's so interesting to hear you talking about folk tales and fables in relation to questions of morality because that also makes me think about the ways in which art is always wrapped up in these questions and The. When we talk about wants and needs and survival, um, I think lurking underneath those questions is also an understanding of how. There is community that lifts you up. There is somebody who is playing music even on a dire day. There, there are painters making their art even in situations which are really grim. And that's something that I wanted to have be true in the book also is, even in really grim. Crises, there are still moments of joy and laughter and beauty and this is something that we thought a lot about. And I think a while ago there was this kind of spate of essays of people considering whether to have children of. How everything in the world is, and specifically also climate change. What kind of future will they have? And I think reading those essays, I always felt that there have been crises in the past, but there is still. Laughter there. There are still jokes. There's still humor. Still a nice cloud in the sky. There's still the joy of having egg.

Jason Blitman: 30:44

Yeah. It's funny, we, I was just in conversation with an author yesterday who. Trying to think when this episode comes out. I don't know that it'll be announced yet, but it's the author of my Gays reading book Club Pick for November, and the book is, takes Place in the 17th century Amsterdam. And I was saying to her how I couldn't believe how funny the book was. And we were talking about how we like. People were always sarcastic, people were always funny. There was always a beautiful cloud in the sky right there. Just because you think about a stuffy piece of art from the 17th century as this like snapshot of a moment, that doesn't mean that. There wasn't a whole life getting lived beyond that, and I think this is an interesting example of that. And frankly, I think part of what we are struggling with as a society right now is that we are going about our daily life while the horrible things are happening, and in the future, right? We'll see movies or read books about those horrible things happening, and forget about us having a frivolous conversation about morality in the meantime.

Megha Majumdar: 31:55

Exactly. You know how like you go to a museum and you see an ancient like statue from some ancient civilization or See the cave art. And I hope I'm not saying something ignorant here because I actually don't know too much about that stuff, but I always wonder when I see them. What if they were just joking? What if they were just like, let's draw an antelope for fun. Let's draw a hilarious looking funny animal. And what if those were jokes? And here we are trying to interpret them like, oh, what did it mean? What was the cultural significance? What if was just like, a person being like, this is hilarious.

Jason Blitman: 32:33

Yeah. This is hilarious. Or just that's what they felt like drawing that day or whatever. It's, and I think it's interesting because as humans, A, we always want to give meaning to things, but I think we forget that it's okay for some things to just exist. Okay. Completely changing the subject.

Megha Majumdar: 32:51

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 32:52

If you had parrots, what would their names be?

Megha Majumdar: 32:58

Abba and Beaches.

Jason Blitman: 33:00

No. What else would their names be? What would their second names? What would your third and fourth parents' names be?

Megha Majumdar: 33:08

Honestly, probably like par three and par four. I'm so bad at names.

Jason Blitman: 33:14

Okay. What are other bands maybe that you love that we could name them after?

Megha Majumdar: 33:19

You know where the Abba and Be Gees came from is I was writing that section while my son was really little and f. For a little while we played him the, like classical music. And then we got bored of that. And then we were like, what else can we play him that's melodic and fun and easy? And we played him a ton of Abba and he loved it. And then we played him Bee Gees and he loved it too. So I was listening to those in those days and I was like, huh, that would be fun if someone was just listening to these bands all the time. And That's what they named their parrots.

Jason Blitman: 33:55

What would, what are you listening to all the time? For your per that was for your son. What are you listening to that you enjoy?

Megha Majumdar: 34:03

Oh my God. I listened to, oh, this is so funny that you ask because a couple years ago, if you had asked me this, I would've said I don't really have distinct tastes in music, but over the past year I've gone to several concerts and I feel like I've learned that. I like concerts. Concerts are fun. Who knew?

Jason Blitman: 34:24

Who knew? I think a lot of people did, but I'm glad that you're discovering this. What did you go to? What are you loving?

Megha Majumdar: 34:30

I went to see Odessa. Have you ever seen them?

Jason Blitman: 34:34

No

Megha Majumdar: 34:35

really good. I went to see air. Do you know air? The French band?

Jason Blitman: 34:40

I don't.

Megha Majumdar: 34:42

They are also really good. They're just called air, which is very hard to Google. Like, why did you name yourselves? These what is this name?

Jason Blitman: 34:49

That's really funny.

Megha Majumdar: 34:50

What music do you like?

Jason Blitman: 34:53

Oh, all sorts of things. It's funny that you say, if you ask me however many years ago when I was a kid, I was like, a show tunes kid or bust. I was, no other music existed to me. Now I'm, I went through like a. Seventies rot yacht, rock era.

Megha Majumdar: 35:13

What is yacht rock?

Jason Blitman: 35:15

I dunno,

Megha Majumdar: 35:16

Okay. I will

Jason Blitman: 35:17

Like a good seventies band car for car rides. I think there's like a like Fleetwood Mac I feel like is a great

Megha Majumdar: 35:25

I have never, I know the name, but I don't music.

Jason Blitman: 35:28

I'm one of those people that like. I don't know any names of songs or bands or anything, but I've probably heard all the music and I'm like, oh, that's and I had no idea. Now I'm getting into just a lot more interesting contemporary

Megha Majumdar: 35:44

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 35:45

There was a some song came on my like Spotify thing the other day where I was like, I'm shocked at how much I'm enjoying this song. It was. There was like, it was like very rock and a little rap thrown in there somewhere. I was like, rap, who am I? What's going on? Anyway, my taste is very eclectic and has grown and changed

Megha Majumdar: 36:07

This is making me regret that, Spotify offered me. Three months free of the premium or whatever, and I kept And now I regret that I didn't take them upon it.

Jason Blitman: 36:17

I'm sure it'll circle back. They're away. Everyone's always trying

Megha Majumdar: 36:21

I need, the ads.

Jason Blitman: 36:22

Yeah, exactly. How did you find joy? What are things that bring you joy these days?

Megha Majumdar: 36:27

Oh, that's such a fun question. Um, I I like taking walks. I like taking walks and noticing things. I like appreciating people's gardens and flowers, and some people have Halloween decorations up already which I love. I love cooking. I think food has such emotional charge and cooking something delicious for your family or friends is such an act of. Care. And it's also so Much fun just to make something and then it's gone. It's a ephemeral.

Jason Blitman: 37:11

huh.

Megha Majumdar: 37:12

I love going

Jason Blitman: 37:12

is there a dish that is your go-to or a cuisine that is your go-to?

Megha Majumdar: 37:17

I cook the Bengali food that I grew up with. So one very simple thing that I like cooking is spinach with eggplant. It's very simple. You just saute garlic and this one spice, I'm not sure what it's called in English, ngel seeds.

Jason Blitman: 37:36

Okay.

Megha Majumdar: 37:38

Nella. Yeah, I think that's what it's called. Just garlic and that black seed and spinach and eggplant. That's it. It's so good.

Jason Blitman: 37:46

Is there anything that you do specific with the eggplant?

Megha Majumdar: 37:50

Chop it up and fry it first. Um, so that it's in little cubes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 37:55

Yeah.

Megha Majumdar: 37:56

Dunk the whole eggplant in the.

Jason Blitman: 37:59

I do didn't think it was that, but I wasn't sure if it was like, like oui, where it's just rounded or what,

Megha Majumdar: 38:04

No, just like, just Good question. Yeah. just chop it up little cubes, and then you can kinda mix it with the spinach.

Jason Blitman: 38:13

When it comes to food, I have all, I will always have all the questions. Speaking of, there's a person in the book, there's a seller of tastes in the book. What taste would you buy?

Megha Majumdar: 38:27

I love that would buy orange. A taste of an orange.

Jason Blitman: 38:36

Say more. Why?

Megha Majumdar: 38:37

it's such a, it's such a. Beautiful complex taste. Isn't it bizarre that it just is available in fruit form?

Jason Blitman: 38:48

It's funny because I don't, I never really thought about it.

Megha Majumdar: 38:54

Do you like oranges,

Jason Blitman: 38:55

oranges and I grew up in Florida,

Megha Majumdar: 38:58

right?

Jason Blitman: 38:58

which is very orangey. But I never really thought about it as being something unique. And I think part of that is because of that.

Megha Majumdar: 39:06

Yeah. Which taste would you buy?

Jason Blitman: 39:09

Why? Why did I not expect you to ask me that? Ugh, what taste would I buy? That is a very, it's a good question. I, I wonder if, I wonder what the circumstances would be. Would I be buying it because I needed some nostalgia or comfort or joy or to freshen my breath or, like I wonder what the context would be. I think that would make a big difference. Citrus, that is a good, it's a, makes sense to me.

Megha Majumdar: 40:01

I love how you're thinking extremely deeply about it, and I was just like an orange.

Jason Blitman: 40:08

I told you, I take these questions very seriously, especially when it comes to food. What taste would I buy? And also. Thinking about like the first thing that comes to mind for me is like chocolate or something sweet. But when I think about like scratch and sniff, like scratch and sniff chocolate, it doesn't smell good at all. I would, so that's where I'm like, oh, that tastes wouldn't be good. So I don't want that, but that doesn't make any sense. All that to say, I don't know. I don't know what I would buy.

Megha Majumdar: 40:36

Wait, I have to ask you what brings you joy? It's such a good question.

Jason Blitman: 40:41

Not a lot these days.

Megha Majumdar: 40:43

Fair. Fair. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:47

I also really going on walks. I am both. It is both a blessing and a curse that I get to read as much as I do. It is a great escape, but also I have to do it with a pencil in hand. But interestingly that while it might feel like work sometimes part of that. Is helpful and does bring me joy. It brings me joy that I get to read a line in your book and we could talk about it for 20 minutes, so that I, my husband and I cook, we do a lot of fun things together. I don't know, it's really hard to find the joy these days.

Megha Majumdar: 41:32

Yeah. Yeah, I hear you.

Jason Blitman: 41:34

Yeah. Interestingly, leading into another question, joy. But also it's hard to find laughter, though I love to make light of things. It is said in the book, the best philosopher is the one who laughs and makes others laugh. Laughing is the most truthful way of approaching life. Do you agree?

Megha Majumdar: 42:02

I am interested in thinking about it. So that is. A line stated by one of the characters in the book, the Grandfather, And I'm interested in thinking about I think we tend to take, um, seriousness as a truthful way of. Approaching life, but, and we dismiss laughter as something, unserious or opposed to seriousness. But what if there is something very truthful and generous and beautiful about laughing? What if laughter acknowledges the ways in which we often feel powerless and allows us to. Accept it. What if laughter allows us to make fun of those who are powerful, In ways that are very difficult for them to shut down? What if laughter allows us to navigate the difficulties of everyday life in a situation of crisis in a way that is inalienable cannot be taken away from you?

Jason Blitman: 43:05

it's interesting because on one hand, I want to believe all of that to be true. And on the other hand, if I choose to believe that to be true, then I'm also choosing that there has to be a binary And things can be serious and funny at the same time,

Megha Majumdar: 43:23

mm-hmm.

Jason Blitman: 43:23

can laugh at the world crumbling around us. That doesn't mean that we don't take it seriously, but we, what else can we do? With a lot of these conversations and book events that I do in person, I hate taking it too seriously because that doesn't mean that the books aren't serious or good, but like we go read the book on your own time let's have a fun conversation about other things, because these things should bring us joy and laughter and. Finding something to hold onto.

Megha Majumdar: 43:59

I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And books like I think were. We constantly discussing right now today. Books allow us a space to think with and think through, right? They're not necessarily statements of belief or things we have to agree with or disagree with, but I think they're often just the writers saying, I'm interested in this thought. Are you interested in this thought? Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:33

Absolutely. And it doesn't have to be, this is a serious thing. Take it as gospel.

Megha Majumdar: 44:40

exactly. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 44:41

yeah. The book is about a bajillion things in its in know, 204 pages or whatever. For me. Among the things at its core is about fear And who we become in the face of fear, who we become in desperate times. And I, we could have talked an entire hour about fear and what that means and what that means to you. And, among the things that I think about a lot lately is the idea of accidentally manifesting a fear. Has that ever happened to you or does that happen to you? If you worry about something so much? If you're afraid of something so much that you it's inevitable that it's gonna happen.

Megha Majumdar: 45:38

The first thing that comes to mind is very silly, and you're going to laugh at me if I,

Jason Blitman: 45:42

Good. Let's laugh about it.

Megha Majumdar: 45:46

but, so I am very afraid of cockroaches. I'm very afraid of cockroaches

Jason Blitman: 45:52

So is my husband. I'm the bug killer in our house.

Megha Majumdar: 45:55

Yeah. Well, I'm sure you're, you're used to them from Florida, right? Yeah, I'm so afraid of them. And then they were really common in cold kata, and every now and then a really big one would fly into my room, horrifying. And then I moved to the US to go to college and. Within the first few days on campus, guess what I see? Walking across the path in front of me, a gigantic cockroach. And it was just like, the one who is afraid of it is the one who sees it. Nobody else sees it. going to class. Yeah, but that's what I thought of.

Jason Blitman: 46:36

That's such an interesting observation too. It's. You're not necessarily manifesting the fear, but because it is like a piece of you so deeply it, you are more inclined to be the one to see it or experience it because it's something you're easily

Megha Majumdar: 46:51

Yes. You are so alert to it. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:55

Oh, that's so interesting. And again, I don't wanna unpack that too much, but as people read the book, I think that will resonate as well.

Megha Majumdar: 47:04

What are you afraid of?

Jason Blitman: 47:05

Ah, whose show is this? I have always had a lot of health anxiety

Megha Majumdar: 47:16

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 47:17

and I, and the more I learn about it, and I've been on medication for anxiety for a long time now. So that has subsided. But the more I learn about it, the more I talk about it, the more I realize that everybody does. And that is a thing that we all worry about because just like space and the ocean, we don't understand a lot of what happens in our body,

Megha Majumdar: 47:37

true. Very true.

Jason Blitman: 47:39

yeah, that's like among my bigger fears, I also have weird, random, terrible things that happen to me physically. So like I have gout, I've gotten kidney stones, I've had shingles already

Megha Majumdar: 47:49

You've had shingles. Whoa.

Jason Blitman: 47:52

Yeah, so I'm, I feel like my body is prone to what the fear, like whatever it's, but here I'm laughing about it.

Megha Majumdar: 48:03

You made it through. Here you are. I had a horrible illness when I was a kid. And hearing you talk about health anxieties, I think first of all, you're right, everybody does, our, we're somehow in charge of a body and we don't really know how it works. And it's also subject to various bad things all the time. But when I was a kid, I had this strange illness, which was a tapeworm cyst in my eye. Have you ever heard of that? Yeah, it's bizarre. It's bizarre. I never really talk about it, but I'm telling you because we're just talking about health stuff, which also never really

Jason Blitman: 48:40

Thank you for being vulnerable with me.

Megha Majumdar: 48:43

But yeah, it was really bad and like it was in my left eye. And I was out of school for three months. I was just like in bed. And I listened to a lot of, I listened to a lot of I don't know how to call it in English, like audio theater.

Jason Blitman: 48:59

Oh, Uhhuh.

Megha Majumdar: 49:00

like audio plays. Yeah. Yeah. I listened to a lot of those and those got me through it. But yeah, it was so weird. Tapeworm.

Jason Blitman: 49:10

That sounds terrible. And I'm doing everything in my power to not rub my eyes right now because I, that's all I wanna do.

Megha Majumdar: 49:19

I think it's, I think it's very hard to get it, so you're fine.

Jason Blitman: 49:21

Yeah. Well, you made it through. Everything is fine. Yes. Um, oh my God. I wanna read that short story. No, I don't. Just kidding. Please don't write it. Please don't write it.

Megha Majumdar: 49:31

Maybe I'll write one about that, which also includes a cockroach and it'll be like all our fears.

Jason Blitman: 49:37

Oh my God. I know. It's so interesting. I, it's so funny. The, again, the book is 204 pages. We could have, we could talk for hours and hours about all of the different nuances. I'm so excited for people to read it. A Guardian and a Thief. Meha. Madam Jar, thank you so much for being here.

Megha Majumdar: 49:55

Thank you, Jason. This. Was such a great conversation and I love that you pulled out threads that nobody so far has pulled that from this book. And I love all of your questions and I love the energy you brought to the book and I'm so happy that we got to chat, you know, independent of like book promotion or anything. I'm really happy that we got to chat. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 50:19

too. All of that is going on. A quote on the Gays Reading Web is going as a quote on the Gays Reading website.

Megha Majumdar: 50:24

I love it. Do it.

Jason Blitman: 50:25

Me, have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you so much for being here. And everyone go get your copy of the book.

Megha Majumdar: 50:31

Thank you, Jason.

Jason Blitman: 50:37

How are you today,

Brandon Taylor: 50:38

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Feeling good, feeling spry. It's the US Open. New York is a buzz with tourists and tennis players. But it's good. It's all looking up.

Jason Blitman: 50:49

Are you a tennis fan?

Brandon Taylor: 50:50

Oh yeah huge. I've been to the US Open N

Jason Blitman: 50:53

being facetious? Oh, okay.

Brandon Taylor: 50:55

like a huge tennis fan. I, I played tennis like six to 10 hours a week at least. And yeah, I, and in fact, if I weren't doing this interview, I'd be at tennis right now. So

Jason Blitman: 51:06

I am so sorry.

Brandon Taylor: 51:09

no, it's great. It's wonderful. It's. It's, I'm glad to be here, but just so you know, I would be at tennis otherwise for sure. 100%.

Jason Blitman: 51:17

I need to make this really fun and we can like volley in a different way.

Brandon Taylor: 51:21

Oh, I love that. Wow. The tennis puns, I feel right at home.

Jason Blitman: 51:24

But yes. Perfect. That's the goal making people feel at home on gay's reading. So I should officially say Brandon Taylor, welcome to Gay's

Brandon Taylor: 51:32

Oh, thanks for having me.

Jason Blitman: 51:33

Thanks for being here. So you are my guest gay reader today. The first thing I have to know is, what are you reading?

Brandon Taylor: 51:42

What am I reading? I'm reading right now a not very good tennis book called Essential Tennis. I

Jason Blitman: 51:48

Is it not good because of the quality? Is it because you know all the content already?

Brandon Taylor: 51:53

It is not, it's just not a good book. It, it's structured very poorly and I'm not totally sure that it knows. What it wants to communicate to the reader and why, and it feel, I should say that like this guy is one of the first big YouTube tennis teachers. He's been doing that for almost two decades now. And this book is clearly just like a monetization of that platform where he's boiling down his lessons. You can almost see how the pitch meeting went for this book. And it's just not carefully arranged. It's a book exclusively for guys who t trawl, the like self-help finance section of Barnes and Noble. This is the tennis book for them and that's just not what I'm here for. As a

Jason Blitman: 52:43

This is why you're not liking it, right? That is not you. You are not the Target demo, and maybe you are. I didn't know you were a tennis person, so maybe that is your brand.

Brandon Taylor: 52:52

No, it's not.

Jason Blitman: 52:53

The finance bro, wall Street guy.

Brandon Taylor: 52:55

No, it's really horrifying. It's also like a tennis book for illiterate people. Like it's just looking at it, I'm just like, this book is badly laid out. There are QR codes all in it for you to do a scan and

Jason Blitman: 53:06

watch the

Brandon Taylor: 53:07

Yeah. And the YouTube videos are good, so I'm just like, oh, this is just, somebody was like, you should do a book. And he did it and I wish that he hadn't. It's a very bad tennis book for sure.

Jason Blitman: 53:19

Is he handsome?

Brandon Taylor: 53:20

He looks like a guy. He looks like he does like insurance in the Midwest or something. Like he just, he is like a skinny little guy. Yeah. He's not

Jason Blitman: 53:27

I'm asking'cause the reality is should I go learn how to play tennis by watching his YouTube videos? And If it's worth watching him.

Brandon Taylor: 53:33

he's not the guy. You wanna, if you, if you want like a hot tennis influencer, carousel is the guy, or, dennis, I think his name is like Dennis, the tennis teacher. He's like also really hot.

Jason Blitman: 53:45

He changed his name when he got into tennis. It cannot be Dennis

Brandon Taylor: 53:49

I think that's his name. I think that's his name. I think that's his, I might be mistaken, he's, and then there's and then if you're not looking for like how to learn how to play tennis, but just like hot guy doing tennis. Then this guy Felix Mishka who does tennis Brothers on YouTube, he's also like very attractive and does tennis content.

Jason Blitman: 54:06

I didn't know how much I needed all of this material

Brandon Taylor: 54:10

Listen, it's the only thing I know anything about right now is

Jason Blitman: 54:14

This

Brandon Taylor: 54:14

tennis media ecosystem. That is the only thing I know anything about.

Jason Blitman: 54:18

You have said many times, not many times, at least one time, that when someone asks you what you're reading, you should either tell them, make something up, or are you gonna be honest and say you're rereading Anna Carina.

Brandon Taylor: 54:30

Oh the other. Other part of it is the stack of books that I'm actually reading is know what's I'm reading ideology in Utopia by Carl Manheim, criticism and Ideology by Terry Eagleton. Post Modernity and Ethics on the novel by Andrew Gibson, A Theory of literary production by Philip Re and for pleasure, a book on gay ash and Thomas Ma. That's like what I'm actually reading, but for on my way to tennis, no. On my way back from tennis, I'm reading essential tennis, but on my way to tennis, I'm reading like Andrew Gibson and like post-modernity or something.

Jason Blitman: 55:13

when this, that is like very intense reading.

Brandon Taylor: 55:16

I find it really soothing. Like I've been reading a lot of,

Jason Blitman: 55:20

I love

Brandon Taylor: 55:20

Louie Altair and I find him really soothing and really clarifying and it like really moves me and really pumps me up.

Jason Blitman: 55:28

What is it that's soothing? What's your the PSA.

Brandon Taylor: 55:34

yeah I love a writer who's like really clear and a writer who can articulate something about what it is to live in the world or to, who can clarify something that I find really confusing and when they can present it to me in this like really not super elaborate, but just like person to person, here are the terms on which I engage the world, and I find that really. Soothing and like really moving and like really beautiful. And I don't know, because a lot of these writers are writing about like big ideas. Big ideas can be really scary or really confusing or really complicated or muddy. But the writers I just mentioned are all just, they make it feel so accessible and so clear and they take you through their argument. And I always leave these books feeling like I understand. A little more about the thing I went in hoping to read about and I've read novels and stuff written by contemporary writers that are written super lucidly, but so confusing that I'm like confounded by them. And so I don't know, reading about, like reading Terry Eton or Al or Maray. Who are these like theorists? I don't know. I find it much more clarifying and clear to read than even some contemporary novels these days, and I'm just like, man, I'd rather have the theorists at least there talking in terms I can understand.

Jason Blitman: 57:01

I was gonna say, it sounds like they're like taking their maybe big concepts and just like putting them on the page, as if they were telling them to a friend over a beer or something, versus perhaps a contemporary writer doing their darnedest to write capital L literary fiction and what that means to them.

Brandon Taylor: 57:19

boy. Oh boy. So true.

Jason Blitman: 57:22

Is what I'm hearing you say.

Brandon Taylor: 57:24

true. Listen, many such cases many

Jason Blitman: 57:27

no, I Under every once in a while I'm like, do they know what they're saying?

Brandon Taylor: 57:31

No. Increasingly no, they don't. And I wish they would stop. I wish they would stop. I read a book recently that, and I was just like, brother you gotta put down the sauce. What are we doing here? What did, was it necessary to do all that? Did you need to do all that?

Jason Blitman: 57:50

Okay. I feel you since you clearly have reread Anna Karenina to someone who has not read Anna Karenina, what, how, why should I read it?

Brandon Taylor: 58:02

Oh my gosh. There are so many. There are so many great reasons to read Reina. It really depends on the reader. I think that. To a reader who usually loves like a big plotty book. I would say it is the plots of novels. There are so many things going on. It has like political machinations. It has like per interpersonal drama. It has like social, like soap operatic, theatrics, like it has all of that going on. There's just, it's like nonstop stuff happening to. To maybe more of the sort of like Marilyn Robinson fan. I would say that it is a deeply spiritual and theologically active text that it has all these like really beautiful ruminations on spirituality and faith and how do we live and what does it mean to live in a society and to live in a world and to make moral choices. And so it has that going for it. To someone who just like, wants to read like a dishy love story, I would say that it has adultery and betrayal and the will, will, they, won't they of it all. Um, And. Yeah. And so to me it is like a novel that has all these different registers and all these like beautiful things to it. And what's so magical about it is with it tol story weaves it all together and the prose is just so beautiful. And I don't know. And I think that people go in thinking that it's gonna be dense and hard, but it's really not like it's so accessible. And if you're worried about the length.

Jason Blitman: 59:34

I was literally just pulling up the page count.

Brandon Taylor: 59:37

It's long, but Maggie Gien Hall reads the audio book and she is a great narrator because she understands the book in a way that like, I think a lot of narrators sometimes don't get the book, but that is a woman who has clearly read Anna Corona before in her own time and gets it and she makes it so active and alive and she is wonderful.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:00

Okay. Approximately 800 to 950 pages. There have been some printings as short as 771.

Brandon Taylor: 1:00:07

It's a long book, but

Jason Blitman: 1:00:08

yeah. But it feels like a, there's a lot happening.

Brandon Taylor: 1:00:11

a lot, it goes swiftly. It's a fast book. And I love it. I recommend 10 out of 10

Jason Blitman: 1:00:17

I my, I'm a later in life reader and so my list of classics that I have tackled is Slim to None or it's like Tickle a Mockingbird and of Mice and Men. So I am. On a mission to read some more,

Brandon Taylor: 1:00:32

You know what though? I have, I am from Alabama and I've never read to Kill a Mockingbird. Never in my life, and I never will. Not for me not doing that. Not doing it.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:41

Can you unpack that?

Brandon Taylor: 1:00:43

So the way that it worked was that in my school, the kids who were on the advanced diploma didn't read that book. They,'cause they were, they had to read Shakespeare and they had to read They had to read all this other stuff for the AP exams. And the kids who were on the general diploma were the standard diploma. They read To Kill a Mockingbird and all this

Jason Blitman: 1:01:03

telling me you're advanced.

Brandon Taylor: 1:01:04

was on the advanced diploma, so like I, read their eyes were watching God and Macbeth and Hamlet. And we read very little like American literature actually in my AP lit and AP language class. We didn't when, I mean that also meant that we didn't do Steinbeck. Like we didn't do of Mice and Men or Cannery

Jason Blitman: 1:01:26

Those are The two that I just threw out there.

Brandon Taylor: 1:01:28

didn't do those.

Jason Blitman: 1:01:29

Yeah.

Brandon Taylor: 1:01:30

we did Grapes of Wrath in. 10th grade we did Grapes of Wrath. But the standard Diploma kids didn't do Grapes of Wrath. So like there, there was this like a bifurcation in my fate where we also didn't do salinger, like we, like the standard diploma kids did Salinger. And so I think I just internalized this idea that was for the reg that was for the general population and like it, it contained nothing for me to take on. So there was just like this whole section of. American Classics in particular that I just don't know anything about. I didn't enter my field.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:03

The last three minutes have been dripping in shade towards me, but I'm not gonna take

Brandon Taylor: 1:02:08

No. No shade. No

Jason Blitman: 1:02:09

Jason, you? are regular,

Brandon Taylor: 1:02:12

Not at all. Not at all.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:14

Which is hilarious because I was actually in gifted classes and these are still the books that we were reading. So we clearly, I know this is very interesting. I know. I am so curious because the books that you rattled off reading are specific, do you, what is your journey like of dipping in, are you in a bookstore and you just are inspired by something? Is there a theme in your life where you're like, oh, I wanna learn more about this and so I wanna find a book about it? How, what? How do you tap in?

Brandon Taylor: 1:02:44

What, I mean my move in bookstores is the minute I enter a bookstore, I don't go to fiction. I don't even look at fiction. N No,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:55

It's dead to you.

Brandon Taylor: 1:02:56

it really is like a dead zone. There are reasons for this, but it's dead to me and I go straight to nonfiction, specifically straight to literary criticism. Especially in the Strand, in the basement of the Strand is where the literary criticism is. It is like one of the great repositories of books. It is the best bookstore in New York is just those three bookshelves in the strand. Because

Jason Blitman: 1:03:19

the whole store closed but kept those three shelves,

Brandon Taylor: 1:03:21

It would be, it really would be. It's extraordinary because, so New York is like home to like many universities and like many like old people who die and their books get sent to the Strand. And so it's like this repository of this incredible range of writing about writing and writing about literature. And so I was like a literary nerd. I love that section. The reason that I don't go to fiction is because. You simply cannot go into a bookstore in New York City looking for a specific fiction title. You just can't. They won't have it. If you go into a bookstore looking for, and this happened to me, I went into four bookstores in New York City, looking for a copy of Tony Morrison's Soula. Nobody had a copy. No copies. No copies. And then I asked them for a copy of Beloved, and they, it's been, it took them 10 minutes to track down a copy of Beloved

Jason Blitman: 1:04:16

That's devastating.

Brandon Taylor: 1:04:18

It's because I was looking for Beloved that day. If I had been looking for a different book that day, they would've had

Jason Blitman: 1:04:23

It would've been there. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Taylor: 1:04:24

like, you just

Jason Blitman: 1:04:25

So this is on you, is what you're saying.

Brandon Taylor: 1:04:26

You just can't go into a New York bookstore looking for a specific book. They just, by the laws of the universe, they simply will not have it. I have never, in my, I guess I've been in the city four or five years now, I've never gone into a New York bookstore looking for a book and they have had it. I've never. Once. Not once. Not once. Every time I've gone into a New York bookstore and bought a fiction book, it's because I've been looking for something else. And that's the, and had to browse, right? And so if you're going into brows.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:58

universe is conspiring against you.

Brandon Taylor: 1:05:01

maybe, if you're going into browse, it's great, but like when I'm in a bookstore looking for fiction, I'm not there to browse. I'm there to buy this book that came out two days ago and they just won't

Jason Blitman: 1:05:11

Or ula,

Brandon Taylor: 1:05:11

Or Ula, I went into a New York bookstore to buy,'cause I was teaching a class on the novel of Manners and I, we were at the part of the semester where we were doing the millennial novel of Manners and I went in to buy a copy of Kylie Reed's. Such a fun age. Now that book. Was very popular. It sold like a million copies, literally a million copies, truly everywhere. You could not escape that book. And so I thought, oh, I'll just pop into McNally Jack. It's a, it's like a, it's like the platonic ideal of a McNally Jackson book. I'm like, I'll just go into McNally Jackson at Rockefeller Center, and I'll just pick up a copy of it on my way to class so I can reference it. They didn't have it. I stopped at the strand. They didn't have it. I'm just like, I've been seeing this book everywhere for four years, and now no one has a.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:02

Okay. It's not just you because you saying that reminded me that I saw Charlotte McConaughey's once there were wolves. Everywhere. It was everywhere. And so finally one day, because I was seeing it everywhere, I picked it up at a thrift store and I was like, great, I'm putting it on my shelf. I did a big purge a few months ago, got rid of it, read her newest book, wild, dark Shore, fell in love with. It was like, man, I want to go back and read all of Charlotte's stuff. Can't find it. It is nowhere. I've been looking for literally months.

Brandon Taylor: 1:06:36

it. Who knows. Who knows? And and this is why, I also just don't browse fiction. I don't browse fiction. I like nonfiction. I'm capable of being surprised. I love it. I'm gonna do it. I don't browse fiction because I like why, like there's nothing and I'm just not a fiction browser. I'm a nonfiction head and,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:55

you were to pick fiction, if there was if someone was describing a book to you that was fiction, what would make you say, oh, I wanna read that.

Brandon Taylor: 1:07:05

I mean,

Jason Blitman: 1:07:06

this, is this gonna be the clip of this episode? Is you just making those? Humming, humming and highing noises.

Brandon Taylor: 1:07:14

What would make me, what would make me pick it up? And if it were fiction and I had never heard of the author before.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:22

Yeah, like you didn't have context outside of a hand cell. What? What could someone say?

Brandon Taylor: 1:07:29

I don't know that there's anything anyone could say to me to hand sell me a fiction book that just I don't, I'm impervious to the hand sell on fiction. No one, no bookseller has ever hand sold me a book. On fiction by someone I didn't know. I'm just, it's just not gonna work. I'm impervious to that. Um, But something that might make me pick it up if I were like, just browsing and picking up, this actually happened to me recently. I picked up a book by JF Powers and. about a priest. And then I found out that he writes about Jesuits and Catholics and priests, especially in Chicago. And I was like, Midwestern Catholics, I'm all over that. Let's go. And he's funny. 1000%. That's my bag. I'm gonna do it. It's like maybe if it involved Catholicism in some way I'd pick it up. A priest love books about priests love Can't get enough. 10 out of 10 we will read almost any book about a priest.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:25

Why is that?

Brandon Taylor: 1:08:26

I just find it fascinating. I find them interesting because they're both in the world and not in the world. They have this higher calling to which they, that they must obey at all times, and yet they also have to live an everyday life where they interact with people and go to. They have jobs and they have to buy groceries and all this other stuff, and I find that really fascinating. And people have a lot of feelings about priests and I'm interested in what people feel about priests and like how that comes out and the stories we tell about them. So I'm always really interested in that. I love a, one of my favorite books about a priest is Miley Malloy's Saint Liars and Saint Patron, Saint of Liars. It's so good and it's amazing. And she's so perfect. Milan Malloy. But I love that book, especially'cause there's a priest in it and Patchett's Commonwealth has a priest in it. Love books about priests. I could go on forever.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:15

So I am a nice Jewish boy who went to the largest Catholic university in the country, in Chicago.

Brandon Taylor: 1:09:22

Oh, is this Loyola?

Jason Blitman: 1:09:24

I went to DePaul. It might have since been eclipsed by Loyola, but at the time it was DePaul. So me writing my fiction book about my fictional time there, including a priest that you might read. So maybe that's gonna be my, I'm not really an author, but maybe my new goal is to write the book that Brandon

Brandon Taylor: 1:09:41

I would want, listen a book about a Jewish gay who goes to a Catholic University. Oh, baby I'm your biggest fan. I'm,

Jason Blitman: 1:09:52

Yes.

Brandon Taylor: 1:09:53

will blurb

Jason Blitman: 1:09:54

Look at this validation that I needed

Brandon Taylor: 1:09:56

I'll blurb

Jason Blitman: 1:09:57

I did just come from therapy.

Brandon Taylor: 1:09:59

oh, will I read it? Can, when can I read it? Is the operative question.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:05

You, we are recording and you said you'd blurb this non-existent book, so it's bring it

Brandon Taylor: 1:10:11

Oh, I will, I please, please write also, please write this book. I wanna read it now. I'm sad. It's not real. I'm like devastated. You need to listen. Open your Word doc when we get off this and get to work. For sure.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:26

once upon a time.

Brandon Taylor: 1:10:28

Listen I'm sold.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:30

Okay. If this chapter of your life that you're in right now had a title, what would it be?

Brandon Taylor: 1:10:36

Oh, drill and play. That would be my, that would be my title.

Jason Blitman: 1:10:40

Drill and

Brandon Taylor: 1:10:42

Yes. So in tennis there's this thing called drill and play. It's a kind of tennis clinic where you spend a first, the first hour doing tennis drills, and then you spend the second half of the clinic. Like playing organized doubles matches to put your drill to, to use. And I think like my life right now is very much like that where it's like incredibly regimented where I'm giving myself these like strict reading assignments and lists and I'm then translating a lot of what I'm reading about into my sort of like daily life. And my life feels very informed by. My reading more now than perhaps at any other time in my life. And so I would say drill and play for sure. Is the operating schema of my days.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:25

It doesn't hurt that there's like a sexual

Brandon Taylor: 1:11:28

yeah. Oh yeah. It's s

Jason Blitman: 1:11:29

young gay man.

Brandon Taylor: 1:11:31

perfect, you can see it in the sort of title case for the chapter heading. Oh.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:36

A hundred percent. I know. And then you're like a little bit disappointed that it's about. Drills and

Brandon Taylor: 1:11:44

Until the sex metaphor

Jason Blitman: 1:11:46

That's what I was gonna say. Until we, until it come, later in the chapter where you feel the catharsis as the reader, you're like, finally.

Brandon Taylor: 1:11:52

thing about drill in play is that it does feel like hooking up because like you like meet a bunch of strangers you will never see again and you like undertake this physical activity that's incredibly like that you all know you're there to do, but you don't know how it's gonna go. And then at the end of it you're like toweling off and then you like disappear until the night never to be seen again like it is. Every time I like leave my tennis place, I like open Grindr and I'm always like, this feels so similar to what I just did this. This feels not dissimilar.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:21

You should change the little caption on your picture to say drill and play question

Brandon Taylor: 1:12:26

Oh, you know what? Listen, that's a great idea. That's a

Jason Blitman: 1:12:30

How amazing would it be if someone replied knowing, getting the reference?

Brandon Taylor: 1:12:35

Oh, listen

Jason Blitman: 1:12:36

Then you're gonna get

Brandon Taylor: 1:12:36

I am, so whenever there's a guy on, on Grindr in New York and he has like a picture of him on a tennis court, I always recognize the courts.'cause I played on almost every court in the city and I'm like, are those the Sutton East Courts? Or oh, is that the Roosevelt Island Court four? And he is yeah. I'm like, should we like, do you wanna hit sometime? That'd be like really fun. No, never a response. But,

Jason Blitman: 1:12:59

that's

Brandon Taylor: 1:12:59

I feel like the geo guesser guy, but for tennis gaze in New York.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:03

Oh my God. Look at you. I'm very excited for your tennis Pro husband future for all I know. You're not for all I know you're married. I don't even

Brandon Taylor: 1:13:12

Maybe one day. I'm hoping if you're out there, let a girl know. I,

Jason Blitman: 1:13:16

Yes. He's listening to gay's reading right now and he's very excited. He's me. I wanna drill and play.

Brandon Taylor: 1:13:24

That'd be a dream.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:27

You heard it here first. Everyone. We have to talk about minor black figures,

Brandon Taylor: 1:13:33

it looks so good.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:34

so, It's not a finished copy. It's the galley. So maybe that's, the finished copy will look even better. But maybe it looks good'cause the spine is

Brandon Taylor: 1:13:41

Ooh. Oh. You've been reading. Reading with a capital R.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:45

Of course for the people. What is your elevator pitch for minor black

Brandon Taylor: 1:13:51

Um,

Jason Blitman: 1:13:52

Every author's favorite

Brandon Taylor: 1:13:53

Oh, I love this game. Actually. It is a novel about a painter who spends an entire summer having entirely too much sex with a Jesuit priest and thinking a lot about French movies. And that's really what the book is about and it turns on that and it. Evolves from there. But really it's like a love story about a painter and a priest. Which given what I said earlier about Catholics and painting, makes a ton of sense. But yeah, that's what it's about. Like having sex with a Jesuit one summer,

Jason Blitman: 1:14:22

I, where was I? Oh,

Brandon Taylor: 1:14:27

I.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:27

I was having this very interesting conversation with, I like met a guy at a party with my husband, and that sounds more. exciting than it was other than just like literally sitting at a table and chatting with him. And he started talking about on his substack, how he was in the process of writing an article about if there is art in a museum that gets bombed. And the art gets affected in some way. Does that become a part of the history of the art, or should you restore it to its original form? And from reading this, I had so many of my own feelings about art restoration that I was like, I'm, in this book that I'm reading right now, let me tell you about. Art restoration and the things that I'm learning and the techniques, et cetera, et cetera. And then, anyway, we had a very long existential conversation about that and art and what it means, to preserve it versus celebrate it in a new form. But it's also very much about art. This book, not just,

Brandon Taylor: 1:15:36

not just having sex with a priest. Yeah. I mean it, when I wrote that book, I to write that book I'd just throw away a different book that I had been writing and failing to write for five or six years and. By throwing that other book away, I was like, okay, like what do I wanna write? And I was like, man, I just like wanna write a book that's gonna let me like, describe stuff and like work through some of my baggage about. The way we talk about art and deal with art these days. And like also a book that's gonna let me talk about how I think a lot of contemporary painting is just like really ugly, especially like gay contemporary painting is so ugly and like, why are they painting so many naked bodies all the time? And so this book was really

Jason Blitman: 1:16:14

Artist objective.

Brandon Taylor: 1:16:16

yes, it is subjective. And some of that is incredibly ugly. So I was like, what? What's gonna let me do that? I was like I should write a book about a painter and I'm gonna make him like, think about all this stuff and using the book to smuggle in. Opportunities to think through how we talk about art and why we talk that way about art. And to take up some of the really interesting questions that I'm fascinated by. Like, how is art restored and why is it restored? And what do you think about when you're restoring it? And what are the different conflicts in that field? Because there are a lot of people have very, as you perhaps now know, like they have very contrasting ideas about.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:57

Yeah. From the book, but also from this conversation that I was having with this guy. It was so interesting and little did I know it was, it really dusted up a lot of interesting and engaging thoughts and theories and feelings. You, one of the first things you said was how we talk about art. How do you feel like we talk about art these days?

Brandon Taylor: 1:17:20

Oh right now we're in a, we're in a kind of, I guess like literal and perhaps figurative regime change around, around these discourses. It feels somehow like during those sort of high Obama years, there was one way of talking about art, which was like very identity forward and which was very identity forward in a way that was using art. Like it was like politicizing art, but along strictly identitarian lines in a way that like a lot of people felt was like cheesy and a lot of people felt was like really important and necessary. And then in the sort of like Trumpian years, I feel like that got turned up even more because people were doing a lot of it was the peak of like resist cringe liberalism. And so people were like really leaning into the sort of Obama era rhetoric and now it feels somehow that we're experiencing a collapse of a lot of the sort of like. Liberal optimism or like the sort of embedded hope that was in a lot of that identitarian rhetoric. And so now people are cynical about identity again. And I think we're seeing a lot of that in the kind of like weak 30 of ocean vong backlash on Substack. Like people are just like fight. And I think a lot of that has to do with people feel really frustrated and really hurt by. The fact that their sort of liberal ideology has led them to a place they didn't want to be in, and they are taking that frustration out on poor ocean vong to, to a large degree. Sentimental artists always get shellacked in times like this. You see it all the time, like history is full of examples of this. The sort of reactionary. Left is very always incredibly loud. And so I think right now we're in a moment of figuring out how we want to talk about art for the next five years or the next decade. And it seems like that discourse is gonna be dominated by a lot of like questions around authenticity. A lot of questions around the humanness of art, why we make art. And questions around the sort of quote unquote political project of art. And especially because we have a president who is looking to punish enemies and to punish his ideological enemies. And in some sense, we're kind of right back where we were. In around the time of the invention of ideology, which was in this sort of what, like late 18th, early or middle 19th century where you saw somebody like, emperor Napoleon using the word ideology to sort of. Harm his political rivals. So I think we're, we're kind of like back there, which is to say we're in another reactionary moment. And it's really bleak. It's bleak. I'm just like sick of it. I'm like, everybody stop fighting. Like stop fighting about what we talk about when we talk about our, like just go do something, like log off.

Jason Blitman: 1:20:17

Yeah. Amen. Everyone can go, uh, Enjoy art however

Brandon Taylor: 1:20:22

fight about it, then go fight about it on the internet as we love to do.

Jason Blitman: 1:20:26

Go buy minor black figures because it is out now, wherever you get your books. But don't go to a store in New York with it in mind. Go to the store thinking of something else, and then you'll also pick up minor

Brandon Taylor: 1:20:39

Yes. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:20:40

Otherwise it won't be

Brandon Taylor: 1:20:40

that's the ideal way. That is the ideal way.

Jason Blitman: 1:20:43

You can pre-order Persuasion with the introduction by Brandon Taylor. Everyone's gonna go buy an annotated copy of Anna Carina because now we will, we can read it in chunks and feel really great about it. And we're gonna go follow so many hot tennis influencers. This is a robust takeaway from today's episode of Gay's Reading. Brandon, thank you so much for being here.

Brandon Taylor: 1:21:08

for having me on. It was a delight.

1:21:10

Megha Brandon, thank you so much both for being here. Have a wonderful rest of your day and I'll see you later this week. Bye.