0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Biman, and on today's episode, I have author Tom Ryan talking to me about his book. We Had a Hunch, and then I have RuPaul's Drag Race, queen Extraordinaire. Kimchi, who's my guest gay reader today, and talks to me about, uh, two different books her cookbook, kimchi Eats the World, uh, as well as a YA book that she has out now as well. Both of their bios are in the show notes, and if you like what you're hearing, share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at gay's reading over on Instagram last night I had the pleasure of being in conversation with author Steven Rowley for his new holiday novella, the Dogs of Venice. So make sure to check that out It's a, makes a really terrific, uh, holiday gift.\ We just announced the new book club through Altoa. Which of course is IMU by Victoria Riddell. I had a spoiler free conversation with Victoria that came out last week. You could check that out. Um, last week I also had, uh, a, what are you reading? Episode with Scott and Mark Hoing talking about their children's book and also what they've been reading. Scott, of course, is on. Dancing with the Stars right now and has been doing super well as far as I understand. My mom and sisters tell me, so. And what else? Oh, another, what are you reading? Episode with Heather Amy O'Neill, who wrote, The Irish Goodbye, which is a wonderful family drama. The, uh, current read with Jenna Book Club Pick, thank you so much for being here and enjoy my conversations with Tom Ryan and kimchi,

Jason Blitman: 2:13

very happy to have you here. Tom Ryan, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Tom Ryan: 2:16

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I love interviews and as you know, I I broke my ankle recently and I have not seen very many people other than family members dropping off food. So this is a real jump into the social world beyond my the walls of my house.

Jason Blitman: 2:30

Great. It's my pleasure. We can have hangout time and talk about broken limbs, which is,

Tom Ryan: 2:37

I am ready.

Jason Blitman: 2:38

very classy. I should send you pictures of my of my x-rays from when I had,

Tom Ryan: 2:43

Oh no, please don't. I wouldn't look at my x-rays. When I went into the emerge, they asked, do you wanna see? I said, no, I couldn't do it. I'm not worried with blood. Not there was, I've never broken a bone and something about it just really. Hit at a po a part of my brain that had never been accessed, and I just don't wanna see what's going on in there.

Jason Blitman: 3:00

Yeah,

Tom Ryan: 3:01

wanna see what went on in your leg either. So no offense.

Jason Blitman: 3:04

I'll save you. It's fine. But I, so I was alone in my apartment in New York City and had to call 9 1 1 for myself when it happened. And when the EMS guys got me to the er, one of the, I, like I was, they brought me to the trauma center. I was so out of it. I was it was a crazy day. And the, this one. Very handsome. My dad, EMS guy leaned over the gurney and he was like, gimme your phone. You're gonna want a picture of this for later.

Tom Ryan: 3:35

It's smooth

Jason Blitman: 3:36

And I was like, okay. And sure enough, I am so grateful that I have a photo of what it looked like before a cast one on, and I won't obviously share with you, but the EMS guy knew

Tom Ryan: 3:49

so. did you stay in touch?

Jason Blitman: 3:51

No. He didn't ask for my phone number. He just asked for the phone to take a picture. He should have, I should have given him my phone number.

Tom Ryan: 3:59

That's a different

Jason Blitman: 3:59

anyway. I know. Oh, I would read that book or watch that movie. Speaking of books, we are here to talk about, we had a hunch, your new baby.

Tom Ryan: 4:10

Yeah

Jason Blitman: 4:11

which obviously your pub celebrations have been are, have looked differently I imagine, than you originally imagined with crutches and such.

Tom Ryan: 4:22

a little bit. Most of, I had, I've only had two in per, I was at two festivals. The weeks leading up to this. So I did a bit of pre-launch stuff out in the world and everything else has been online. I did have to push a few things off. The first week I was in a lot of pain, so I just couldn't, and fortunately this worked out well because we both needed to move it a bit. But yeah, generally it's it's weird. Launch launching is very strange. This is my first time I've launched in Canada and the US on two different days. They always come out on the same day, but for whatever reason, my Canadian publisher dropped a week early, so that was a bit weird. And generally, once you've done this a few times, you realize that a lot of the excitement is in the buildup. And the launch day itself is, it's great because it's out there and you can say my book's out there, but you've been building up. So there's been so much energy put into the buildup that it becomes a flat, calm day. People are screaming at you on social media, but internally it's more of closing a chapter that's done. I've done my part. And of course there'll be more stuff coming up down the road and but yeah, it is out there and now I'm getting reviews and people are telling me they've read it and I'm that's always fun. Mostly fun.

Jason Blitman: 5:26

So what is your elevator pitch for? We had a hunch.

Tom Ryan: 5:31

had a hunch is the, so this is my,

Jason Blitman: 5:34

He says, with a deep sigh.

Tom Ryan: 5:35

I, no I love the elevator pitch. I'm just, there's so much going on. How do I tighten it? I need to give a bit of background. The fir the background is that I used to write young adult mysteries and I used to love as a kid, young adult mysteries, hardy boy, an answer to you name it. And when I made the leap to adult mysteries a question that kind of lingered for me was. What happens to the teen detectives, because I used to write them, I used to read about teen detectives. What happens when they grow up and hit middle age, and this is their background and what happens when they get dragged back into the sleuthing world. So that's the really tight elevator pitch is what happens to your favorite teen detectives when they grow up? The broader story is

Jason Blitman: 6:11

It, that's that I, that's okay. That's totally fine. Yeah. I hate reading a blurb.

Tom Ryan: 6:16

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:16

Because it typically, it gives away so much plot and it's just, I think for most readers, if you really need to know more than a sentence, fine, go look it up. But also, I will say the first two, or the first, like two big chunks of the back of the book just says, Nancy Drew meets yellow jackets. Right? And so I think that's another great way of. Giving a sense of what a vibe is gonna be.

Tom Ryan: 6:44

A hundred percent. In this case, I think it fits.

Jason Blitman: 6:48

Uhhuh No. I agree. I didn't watch Yellow Jackets. But seeing that on the back of the book, I looked up what the premise of Yellow Jackets is. And also. Coincidentally, this has been happening a lot in my conversations recently where I've consumed real life content that was related to a conversation that I was about to have. But I just watched the BTK documentary on Netflix. Is this, does that mean anything to you?

Tom Ryan: 7:14

Remind me, I know. BTK I'm steeped in true crime to the point that I met. What, which one is

Jason Blitman: 7:19

BTK is, I don't remember what the B is, but it's something, torture, kill and buying, torture, kill. And it was this serial killer that it, they didn't solve the crime until sort of decades after things were happening. And there it was it was very I, without giving anything away, it was so relevant to. It was a good companion piece to the book, which was a fun surprise as I was watching.

Tom Ryan: 7:48

Was it a DNA solve? You know how they're finding all of these? They're going back to all these cold cases because the DNA, the family matches are showing up.

Jason Blitman: 7:57

right. It was not exactly that was a component of how they solved the crime, but that isn't why they revisited it. Yeah, it was very similar in terms of the back and forth time period in relation to this book. Anyway. This is, I remember as a kid being so afraid of the TV show, unsolved Mysteries

Tom Ryan: 8:23

my God. Yes. Love.

Jason Blitman: 8:26

you said it with. So with such emphasis, say more.

Tom Ryan: 8:29

my brothers and I, so I grew up in Nova Scotia in a very small town. We had two TV stations, we had no cable of any kind.

Jason Blitman: 8:36

Okay.

Tom Ryan: 8:37

we got unsolved mysteries and what was the other Unsolved mysteries was Robert Stack, is that right?

Jason Blitman: 8:41

I think so. Yeah.

Tom Ryan: 8:43

and the other one was Rescue 9 1 1, which was more kind of real life ambulance stories, but unsolved mysteries. My brothers and I were obsessed. It was everything from ghosts to aliens to, and so scary.

Jason Blitman: 8:53

Yeah. I like couldn't sleep at night after watching it because I I think even to this day, the I, the thing that is, I'm not scared of someone breaking in. I'm not scared. There's a lot that I'm not scared of. I'm scared of the face in the window.

Tom Ryan: 9:09

Oh, yes, absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 9:11

Do you know what I mean?

Tom Ryan: 9:12

Yeah. You look up, you're comfortable. And then, okay. you ever seen communion? Have you seen the movie Communion?

Jason Blitman: 9:18

No.

Tom Ryan: 9:19

It is aliens. It's a little bit adjacent, but there's a scene where there, the guy is just in his apartment and he turns and there's a face in the corner of the room and it literally the most chilling thing you've ever seen. So yes I'm with you on that.

Jason Blitman: 9:30

Yeah. And for some reason, just like the concept of unsolved mysteries, like face in the window is that for me, right? I can't explain why, but I think there's just someone knows more than you do.

Tom Ryan: 9:42

Yeah. It's the vulnerability piece and the thought that someone, the thought that you are in your space. It's the, it's the window because you're in your space. You're supposed to be safe in your space. The door is locked, and all of a sudden somebody's there, they're going to find a way to get in. That's the heart of so much horror and thriller. Thriller writing.

Jason Blitman: 10:01

Yeah. And so the book talks a lot about it's the, it's a journey of unanswered questions, right? And that's. I think where my mind goes to in terms of unsolved mysteries, Do you have any of those in your own life, do you think?

Tom Ryan: 10:14

Any unsolved mysteries.

Jason Blitman: 10:15

Yeah. Or like whatever. Whatever that means to you. I don't necessarily mean like a crime or.

Tom Ryan: 10:23

I was always, so I really grew, I can't emphasize how. Remote. My, my childhood was, we're in a very small town, but we were well outside of the town on this sort of a gravel road with abandoned farms, and it was just me and my brothers. We were the only kids, so we spent a lot of time in that sort of environment on our bikes. And I was a, I was the oldest, I was a very imaginative kid and. Prone to drama and I would basically drag my three little brothers around with me and we would explore these old houses and we would, do stuff we today. You wouldn't let your kids just roam free like this. And there was a lot of spookiness built into that. I remember just creating these scenarios where we would go into this. I remember one house in particular, it was this old. Abandoned farmhouse that probably no one had lived in for 50 years. And it was just structurally sound enough that you could squeeze the door open and you could squeeze into the house. The floor in the kitchen had collapsed into an old root cellar, and we would skirt around the edges and go upstairs in this house that three little four little kids should not have been in this house. And I just remember being in there with my brothers and just winding us all up in the sense that. Something's going on here. This there's a reason that we're in this house. There's a reason that this house made itself available to us. And everything about that was scary and spooky. And that, that's the vibe of the area that I grew up in. We did one time find a, a garbage bag full of weed, one of these houses, which isn't really scary, but at the

Jason Blitman: 11:47

bag full.

Tom Ryan: 11:49

full. Black trash bag. And we, and it was, we would be looking for se secret passages and stuff, and we found this hidden ceiling in this old house, and I kicked it up with an old broomstick and this bag fell down and it was new. Some guy was hiding his stash

Jason Blitman: 12:05

Yeah. S

Tom Ryan: 12:06

it was all wrapped up. So to us, we were out solving mysteries. We never solved it, but we never knew who did it. But we thought, oh wow, we're caught up in a mystery. This is just the world that we're living in.

Jason Blitman: 12:14

Yeah. That's really fun. Is that, do you think, what influenced your interest in Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew, or your writing young adult mysteries? I.

Tom Ryan: 12:24

Yeah, absolutely. Part of it. So I, I was really an isolated, your typical gay bookworm kid. I was very introverted, very isolated, didn't have a lot of friends, not bullied so much as just off by myself. And I was not a kid who imagined. Being a sports hero or a space or a fantasy person, I pictured myself solving mysteries. That was my thing. And so the teen detective genre was perfect for me. And when I was about nine or 10, I was in my local hospital for a week. I had respiratory issues and there was a tiny children's ward with four beds, and I was the only kid in there. And in the corner of this room, they had this massive bookcase full of Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys. Titles. So the Big Blue, the Blue Spine Hardy Boys and The Yellow Spine, Nancy Drew. And that's when I first discovered those books, which I don't know if you read them, but there are a million of them. And oh my gosh, they're so addictive. They're really, when you look back at them now, they're really tame in so many ways. And they're really the gender roles are, there's a lot going on in terms of training the today's youth. But the mysteries are really fun and really campy, and there would be mysterious. The face in the window. There was a lot of the face in the window in Nancy Drew. And if you look a lot of those covers and just, these kind of clean jean, squeaky clean teenagers getting caught up in solving crimes and mysteries and chasing down kidnappers and stuff. So yeah, it was a sweet spot for me, always. I always loved mysteries and I graduated obviously to more mature stuff'cause I was a serious reader and I got into everything from Agatha Christie to Stephen King, anything mysterious and thrillery. At a pretty young age, but it began with those books for sure.

Jason Blitman: 14:35

There are like so many things I'm curious about, but because you have just talked about how well read you are in the genre, is there much that surprises you anymore?

Tom Ryan: 14:46

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. The thing is, I, it's funny because with movies, no, I love film, but I got to a point where I was watching movies. I can always guess what's going to happen in a movie, but a well-written, almost always, I know what's happening in a movie. It's just and you see the artifice behind the scenes and I just, I. I can't have that full disconnect from reality watching a film the way I used to. But with books, no problem. I can sink into a story and be completely surprised. And there are so much good stuff being written right now in the mystery and thriller corner of publishing that I feel like I'm constantly being surprised. There's just amazing stuff always. I would say I read as much as I listen to audiobooks, it's half and I would. I don't know if there's a, I don't know if I'm likeer to see things coming when I'm reading. I think maybe I am, because that's my mode, that's my medium is the written word. But when I'm listening, for sure I'm just caught up in the stories and yeah. I'm surprised all the time. There's great stuff being written.

Jason Blitman: 15:43

that's really fun. I. I, this is not this has nothing to do with, we had a hunch, but I feel like the more content I consume, the more options I am able to see when it comes to solving something in a book. For example, having watched and loved mayor of East Town. The TV series, watching that, there was a book that I read where I guessed something because I was keyed into it as a concept from Merrit East Town. And my husband is. Reads this genre or historically more than me. So sometimes he'll read a book and see something coming faster than I because he just like the sort of sampler platter for him is bigger, which is why I was asking if having this sort of, there are only so many stories. Right?

Tom Ryan: 16:41

There are, and I will, I don't want to give the wrong impression. There are I, there are many books that I read and I am not surprised,

Jason Blitman: 16:46

Of course. Of course.

Tom Ryan: 16:47

chapter three. All the time. And I think, and that a lot of that is sometimes it's, and I no names, obviously there's I think people. Writers like any other creative, you get better as you write. So a lot of the time, some debuts I find I, I can see so much potential in this writer, but the story is just a little bit just on the surface you can See things coming. The beats are really obvious, but there is so much stuff written by and, some debuts, some kind of early in their career writers who are just doing stuff that I've never seen before. And, So it's a matter, and that's half the fun in reading when you're a dedicated, when you're an obsessive reader like I am and always have been. Half the fun is, getting through as much as you can so that you can find those titles and you can recommend them to other people. Right?

Jason Blitman: 17:29

Chris Whitaker's all the colors of the dark. I don't know

Tom Ryan: 17:31

Oh yeah, I sure did. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 17:33

Love the book. Love Chris and I, that is a great example for me of, I felt like I was, I thought I was 10 steps ahead when I was reading the book, but I was actually only half a step ahead.'cause I would get to a moment and I would be like, oh, this is how the book is gonna end. And then two pages later, that thing would happen and I was like, god dammit.

Tom Ryan: 17:56

Yeah, that was a, that is a gr that is such a great book. It's a good example of what I'm talking about in with regards to. Totally out of nowhere new type of book that fits in the model. And another one is Liz Moore. Have you read Liz Moore's God of the Woods?

Jason Blitman: 18:10

I did. Yeah.

Tom Ryan: 18:12

I love that book. And for the same sort of reasons. I felt like it had a lot of the vibs and the atmosphere and the familiarity of a classic crime novel, but so much happened in there that I just did not see coming. And the structure was so interesting and the back and forth timeline was just impressively. Handled. I thought that book was just fantastic. And Chris Whitaker, I've, I don't know if you've met or interviewed him, but he has such a amazing backstory. Oh my goodness.

Jason Blitman: 18:34

I have met and interviewed him in person and on the podcast and I love that man very much.

Tom Ryan: 18:41

Yeah, he's great. I was on a panel with him last year and we all had to do a little introduction and he just what a story whole of course he became a writer.

Jason Blitman: 18:48

I know his story is talk about taking his trauma and turning it into art.

Tom Ryan: 18:52

Yeah. No kidding.

Jason Blitman: 18:53

God of the woods and some books in general. You get to the end of a story and you're like, oh, of course. Of you almost think you'd guessed it already because it makes so much sense. You know what I mean? Anyway,

Tom Ryan: 19:08

that to me is not to stand on it for too long, but that to me is the mark of a perfect. Novel or a beautifully done novel is a one where you get to the end and you hadn't seen it coming and your reaction at the end is surprise. And of course I think that when a novel leaves you feeling that way, the novelist has really done their job because as a mystery reader in particular where you're trying to solve this logic puzzle, the reader is engaged in a mystery book more than they are in a lot of different types of fiction, because they're really. Working alongside the sleuth, the investigator, to figure out what happened. So it's a really direct, it's a really connected way to engage bet for the writer and the reader to engage because you know that you're setting out this logic puzzle for your reader to follow. And so there's a lot of, there are a lot of ways that can go wrong. But when it's done, when it's handled right, and when it lands nice, there's nothing better. I love it.

Jason Blitman: 19:57

So to close the loop on that I will say I had a similar experience with the end of, we had a hunch where I was like, of course this makes sense. But the thing that was surprising, which is almost more fun, is the why.

Tom Ryan: 20:14

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 20:14

And that was very surprising in this book, and I think in other books too, even if you guess what's coming to then understand and have it unpacked and for that meaning to mean something different, that's a really nice surprise. Okay. You talked about working alongside of the sleuth. So much of this book, and I think obviously a lot of the genre in general is the thrill of the hunt. What is that for you? On a daily basis?

Tom Ryan: 20:41

In my writing

Jason Blitman: 20:42

No in, in all of the above. What is that thing that like keeps you going?

Tom Ryan: 20:48

It, for me, it really, this is probably a really boring answer, but for me I am pushing 50, I'm very firmly in middle age. I have a lot of the bullshit of my younger years is behind me. I'm in a stable, I have a very stable, nice life. Things are great in so many ways personally and. I have been able over the past few years to slide into a professional zone that I've dreamed off my whole life, which is I'm writing the kinds of books I wanted to write. I'm slowly, I'm not a juggernaut bestseller by any means, but I am building a readership and I am connected to two publishers, one in Canada and one in the US who worked together with a lot of enthusiasm and trust in me as a writer. And so I have book. Lined up for the next few years, things are set and so for me, what keeps me going is honestly, it's the work. I love writing generally, but I really love writing mysteries and it took me a while. I stumbled around, I wrote Young Adult Contemporary for a while and then I accidentally got into YA mystery and that taught me that mystery was the right space for me. But I knew I needed to get out of ya because I was aging out. I couldn't do any more high school visits. I was beyond it. I was never good at it, but the older I got, the worse I became at it. But what it really. Happened for me was I had a a professional setback where my two YA mysteries did really well. Critically, they won lots of awards. They put me on the map in a critical sense. And then I wrote what I thought was my ma my masterpiece. And it died on submission. I took two years away. I thought, here I am, I'm, I've got some momentum. Let's write this killer book. And it died on submission. And at that point I. Decided I have to do something different. It was like, and it was a YA book and it felt like the universe was saying, you're done with ya. So that's when I started writing my last mystery, the Treasure Hunters Club. I had promise, I'm getting to answer your question and uh, and when I started writing my first adult mystery, I knew and I, it was my ninth book, I'd written so many ya titles.

Jason Blitman: 22:45

Wow.

Tom Ryan: 22:46

I knew at that point I'd always loved writing. Every book I wrote, I loved them in the moment. I loved taking'em out and talking about them. I still have a lot of fondness for those books, especially the mysteries. But when I started writing an adult mystery and I, it my, it's nothing against young adult. I love young adult fiction. I still read a lot of it, but it was, for me, the canvas became broader. I could write about any age of character and I was, and I love. This book, my last book are both big multi character. There are three main characters in each one. There are lots of side characters, they're big casts. I love that kind of story. And so when I hit that sweet spot and I and Treasure Hunters Club did really well. Certainly my bestselling book and my most successful book. In a lot of ways I realized this is what I'm supposed to be doing, and there's so much more that I want to do with it, and there's so much I wanna achieve and there's, I wanna become better and I wanna become better, and I wanna become better. And I'm, I feel like I, everything is set up now for me to have the opportunity to. Attempt that. So I take what I do really seriously and I love it. It's so much fun. So for me, the thrill of it all is in the, how can I take this book, learn from the last book, and then make sure that I learn from this one and take it to the next book. It's like the ongoing, it's cha chasing the dragon, but I feel like I do get closer with every book to what I'm trying to say.

Jason Blitman: 24:00

Yeah, I am so curious what's the cliff note version of how you stumbled into YA? Mysteries.

Tom Ryan: 24:08

I was always going to write. I wrote as a kid, I wrote through high school. I did an English literature degree. I took creative writing classes at college. Afterwards, I went and got like a real, I worked in the film industry for years, but I kept writing stories and I was trying to write screenplays. I was trying to make a living telling stories, but it was always novels. I wanted to write novels and I did wanna write mysteries. And at a certain point, I think it was 2010 my husband, who at the time was in the Canadian Navy we were living on the east coast of Canada and he was posted unexpectedly to the west coast of Canada. So I had to quit my job. I had a good job, and it came outta nowhere. And he said to me. When he came home from work with this sort of shell-shocked look on his face, I'm being posted to British Columbia. You should quit your job and you should take a year to try to write a novel, which is a pretty great thing for your partner to say. And I didn't need to be really convinced. And so I got out there because he was in the Navy. We moved to this other part of the country. I knew nobody and he went off to sea on a Navy ship for six months. And I thought this is a great set. It was just me and the dog in this new city. And I started trying to write an adult mystery.'cause mysteries was the thing, but. I wanted to meet people. So I went online and I looked in the city I was in and I googled whether there were any writing classes and there was one writing class called writing and publishing for young adults. It was the only one being offered. So I took it just to meet people and I was working on this kind of dinky little, and in retrospect, the mystery I was writing was really shitty. I'm really happy. That was not the book I tried to submit, but I took this class with this woman who was an acquisitions editor at a YA house and she liked my work and she said, you should write something for me. And it was the sort of opportunity, you have an editor willing to take a book, so I pivoted

Jason Blitman: 25:50

Wow.

Tom Ryan: 25:50

how it happened. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 25:52

if the class was like something very different.

Tom Ryan: 25:56

I know. Urban fantasy

Jason Blitman: 25:57

Exactly.

Tom Ryan: 25:57

yeah. A whole different experience.

Jason Blitman: 26:00

That's so interesting. You said you were trying to tell stories. There's a mo there is a, an influencer character in the book and he gets asked, are you an influencer? And the response is, I consider myself more of a storyteller.

Tom Ryan: 26:14

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 26:15

How has that, how has how do I wanna ask this? You've told stories in different ways in your career. What has that journey been like for you and have you found it fulfilling in general? What

Tom Ryan: 26:31

Oh my. Yes,

Jason Blitman: 26:31

you know?

Tom Ryan: 26:32

Yeah. So fulfilling and for me it really was. I knew that I wanted to write novels. That was and I try, I dabble with all kinds of stuff. I really did try to work for a long time. In my city, in, in Nova Scotia, there was a film industry that was booming and it seemed like an opportunity to get out and maybe tell stories on for TV and film which I still aspired. I'd love to be able to write for the screen. But it was novels. I wanted to write books because that's what I had connected with so strongly. That's the stories that spoke to me the most were the books that I remembered. So when I first, even going back to that class, the young adult class, when I first started writing, it was very much. I had set off on this journey to the West Coast with this goal in mind. I've written loads of short stories. I didn't know how to write a novel, and so I set out to teach myself how to write a novel and I, I read on writing by Stephen King, I read Bird by Bird, by Anne Lamott. I read all the learning how to write classics. But then I took this class with this YA editor, and she was really all about story. What's the story? What's the story? What's the story? All the fancy language, all the beautiful characters, all the great scenes, wonderful stuff. But if you don't have a story at the heart of it, your readers won't stick with you. And that was a really great lesson to learn early on. And it was a lesson that has continues to stick with me. Story for me. I don't write. Literary fiction, I would aspire to do a Chris Whitaker type stuff. Lismore, Tana French is a big favorite of mine. They write what, you call it literary thrillers, literary mysteries. And I hope to someday be good enough to write that kind of story where it's a mystery. But first, for me, at every step of the way, the story has been the most important thing and getting better at telling a story. And when you're first starting. You are you learn your three x structure, you learn where your beats are. You read Save the Cat, and you know that you need X, Y, and Z for the story to fall into place. But over time, you obs the more you write, the more you absorb those lessons, and then that frees up your brain to start finding other things and to become more nuanced and to bring in different interesting character subplots. And I'm, I don't know if I'm rambling here, but the crux of it is that. The joy for me is in the finding the perfectly fine tuned story that still surprises. It's so much fun.

Jason Blitman: 28:47

And what I'm hearing too is that yes, you've been a storyteller for your career in these different avenues, but it in the practice of it all, you've been able to fine tune and allow the quote unquote work. To not be as apparent is what I'm hearing. Yeah, that's interesting.

Tom Ryan: 29:11

Yeah. I think I and as with everything, it's the practice piece because I'm fortunate enough to write. Full-time, mostly full-time. I have a lot of time to practice and I don't take it for granted, and I take it really seriously. It's a, one of the things I, anyone who writes for a living or everyone who writes and is published gets a lot of questions from a lot of aspiring writers. And I always try to take as much time as I can with people who come up to me and say, I've written a book, or I wanna write a book. I take it really seriously. I was that person. I'm still that person. And one of the things that I have found sad over the years, and this is. Probably been true forever, but in this era of instant grad, instant gratification, people take the time to write a book, and that's an amazing accomplishment to write and to finish. Your first novel is the, it's. It's such an unimaginable achievement when you've wanted to do it forever, but that book is not always the book that needs to be published and, or it's not, might not. Al and I sometimes there the debut, the first book you've written will be fantastic and it will hit the New York Times list, and that's wonderful. More often than not, it was a learning experience and you need to take what you learn and take it to the next book.

Jason Blitman: 30:16

Yeah.

Tom Ryan: 30:17

The practice is where the good material comes from. And so that's the lesson I try to get across to people as nicely as I can is if you've written a book, try and make something happen with it, by all means. But if it doesn't, don't put it in a drawer and go onto other things. Take what you learn from that experience and take it to the next project and it will be better, I guarantee you. And the one after that will be even better.

Jason Blitman: 30:40

I was just talking to a friend yesterday. She. Worked for years on this romance novel that she's been excited about and now feels like she's in that place. And she's I don't know that this is the book. And I was like, girl, you learn this was your. MFA and creative writing that you didn't have to pay for, you paid for it in your time. So now work on that. Work on the thing that you think might be the book. I have a handful of ideas for novels. There's one that actually is okay, that's a really good idea, but I don't have the patience, so I don't have the patience to write and to rewrite and all of my novelist friends who are, going through the editing stages with their. Like they have a deal and everything. I'm like, I don't, that is not for me.

Tom Ryan: 31:24

Not right now. Not right now. I can't imagine that you're, you have all these great conversations. I can't. At some point it's gotta bubble up. You don't

Jason Blitman: 31:32

It's funny, it's less about the conversations and more about the reading. The amount that I read, the more, not that I think oh, I could do that too. I don't think that, but I do see how stories can be told, how many stories can be told, how stories can be told in different ways. And that is what is inspiring. And you're like, oh there's no one way. And your voice can matter in a space that feels full.

Tom Ryan: 31:59

Yeah. And there is a lot of rereading. There's so much rereading and I saw I, when you write a book, you have to read it so many times, and this is the thing nobody understands. And I saw this I saw on, I think Instagram last night, somebody posted this meme. It was writing a book is a lot like reading a book except that the book hates you. And

Jason Blitman: 32:18

you have to read it 800 times.

Tom Ryan: 32:21

day for the rest of your life.

Jason Blitman: 32:22

Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Okay. Who did you play in your high school production of? Once Upon a Mattress.

Tom Ryan: 32:28

Oh my. How did you know? It's in the book. It's in the book. You're the first person to ask me. Now. My editors didn't ask me. I was, sir Harry,

Jason Blitman: 32:37

So I also did once spin a mattress in high

Tom Ryan: 32:39

were you? Who were you?

Jason Blitman: 32:40

So in high school I played the minstrel.

Tom Ryan: 32:43

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 32:44

I was also the set designer and I choreographed some things and I like it was, I was a very busy high schooler. But when I was in summer camp as a young person and we at a theater camp and we did once on a mattress, I played Sir Harry,

Tom Ryan: 33:00

No kidding.

Jason Blitman: 33:01

I did.

Tom Ryan: 33:03

Oh my God. Synergy. I love it. I love, I could still do that whole, this was my final year at in university and we had a musical theater society and they would do one show a year. We did crazy for You the year before that. And I had so much fun. I can sing every line of it. I'm not going to do it right now, but oh my God, I love that play.

Jason Blitman: 33:21

I know it's really fun really fun. I but because it's mentioned in the book, I was like, oh, once upon a mattress is such a quintessential high school musical and yet. If you didn't have an experience with it, why not? Why

Tom Ryan: 33:36

Why would you pick that?

Jason Blitman: 33:37

you clearly had, there was a story whether, maybe your best friend did it, maybe, but I knew my ins, my hunch was that you did it in school and

Tom Ryan: 33:47

This is Barbara Walters level journalism. You did your emotional research. I really did, and I, the other thing is I like to, I try to write visually, I like to think I write visually and I imagine the. I try to imagine the scenes and the settings and the places really vividly. And then portray that on the page. And because I knew that scene, I was, I helped paint, I was also a backstage painter. I, it was the same sort of thing, like everybody was doing everything. And I remember those scenes, I remember those sets so clearly. So for me, when I was setting that that high school gymnasium up. That abandoned school. There was also an abandoned school in my hometown that was, so I had that with the once upon a mattress sets molding in the corner, and I was able to envision that and write it so easily. Because I'd been, I had spent so much time in that space.

Jason Blitman: 34:35

That's really funny. Yeah, that was, I knew it. Also, Barbara Walters level of journalism is going on a, as a quote on my website, just so

Tom Ryan: 34:44

Oh, I hope so. You can still, you can you, you can have that.

Jason Blitman: 34:47

What, so the book. Takes place, not over two time periods. There's a prologue that takes place earlier, but there is an element of quote unquote coming home. What is that like for you? You said you're in your hometown now. You what were you like as a young person was writing from this perspective? Did that bring dust up sort of young person memories for you?

Tom Ryan: 35:11

Not really at this point because I've done that in previous books I've done. I've done the, my first book was a con contemporary gay coming of age set in a home, a small seaside town. In the nineties with a 17-year-old coming out, gay protagonist who worked at a restaurant, and that was it. So I did all that therapy stuff back then. However, I do, I did take a lot aesthetically and geographically. I like to, like I said, I like to visualize. I also like to know the layout of the towns that I'm writing and The areas I'm writing. So a lot of that came from the town that I'm in. And the homecoming part is, I think also did really seep in because we have moved around quite a bit. I, as I say, I was a military spouse for years until just two years ago. And my town is quite remote. It's called Inverness. It's a really pretty town on an island called Cape Red Island on the end of Nova Scotia. And so it takes some effort to get here, but it's a great place to be. And a few years ago we bought some land and we have, long story short, we have a little cottage here. And so I've been spending a lot more time in my hometown. In the past few years that I left, like I was 18 and I was outta here, and 1995, I graduated high school. So it was not the best time to be a closeted gay teenager in a small, remote, small town. So I wanted to go to college and. Figure out who I was. But things have changed a lot and I've grown up quite a bit and I realize how great it is here. So coming back and being in my hometown, I think I was able to transpose some of those vibes onto especially the character of Sam Samantha, who has been away forever for her own traumatic reasons. She left and she comes back and I think she starts to see the town through different eyes when she gets. Back to town. She sees it more for the positives than the negatives. And that was my experience for sure.

Jason Blitman: 37:01

Are you the kind of person who would go to your 30 year reunion?

Tom Ryan: 37:04

Oh my, yes, absolutely. I will tell you, we had a I, my grad class was. 48 people, really small and we are all, almost all still in touch. And

Jason Blitman: 37:14

Wow.

Tom Ryan: 37:14

yeah, we, most of us are cousins of one sort or another. Like it's a really remote, small part of the world. Deep roots. People here have gener. I know I'm friends with people who, my grandmother and her grandmother had a feud back in the fifties, and you know about it. Like it's that kind of thing. And as a mystery writer coming from this kind of place is so useful because I have the. Part of writing a mystery is really digging into the hidden connections between people. And I know all the I call it the web of connection. I know how everyone in this town is connected. I know who everyone's, multiple generations back. You go to the graveyards here and you see the same names that you were went to school with. So yeah, it's it's definitely, we are, we're all still connected for sure. It's a great spot.

Jason Blitman: 37:58

so fun in a very unique way.

Tom Ryan: 38:04

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:05

Okay. Speaking of unique, there is a blip of a thing that comes up late in the book. This is not a spoiler but it is so specific to being gay at a, at a. Point of technology.

Tom Ryan: 38:23

exactly what you're gonna say.

Jason Blitman: 38:25

So there's talk of you log onto your old computer and you see the files that you downloaded from the internet and hid in a folder, label math class or whatever. And it's really, hun hunky man or whatever.

Tom Ryan: 38:39

Fitch.

Jason Blitman: 38:40

What is that story of yours?

Tom Ryan: 38:43

It was just, it's amazing when I think back to it, I did not have an email address when I graduated high school. I went to college and got my first email address. And when you think about how much more accessible all the stuff is to everybody back then, you really had to work for it. I would come home and I would be home from, for a holiday and my parents had this big, heavy. Beige computer in the family room, and I would wait till everyone went to bed and I would download stuff and it would be save jpeg and put it in a little floppy disc and then put that on my computer and then label it math class. That's how I

Jason Blitman: 39:18

Are you literally labeled it math class?

Tom Ryan: 39:20

pro. Probably not because nobody would've believed that, but something of that nature. I would all be, it would all be mislabeled.

Jason Blitman: 39:26

I wasn't sure if you remembered specifically because when I was a teenager, some of my best friend or the, I, I won't give them away, but they had a VHS of porn and they kept it in the box of the Inspector Gadget movie.

Tom Ryan: 39:46

oh, classic.

Jason Blitman: 39:47

And so they would always call Porn Inspector Gadget.

Tom Ryan: 39:52

I love it.

Jason Blitman: 39:53

And

Tom Ryan: 39:54

I might have to steal that

Jason Blitman: 39:56

It's yours. But so yeah, when I think of Inspector Gadget, I think of porn

Tom Ryan: 40:01

immediately. Yeah, that's reasonable. When I think of math class, I think about various images from the past. It was a di honestly, it was a di and I tried. So one of the, one of the challenges of this story for me was I didn't want it to be a YA novel. I wanted it to be an adult novel. The characters are in middle age, it's really, but I also really wanted them to be connected to the people they were in the past. So that's why I have that sort of prologue set back then. But then once you get through the prologue at the very beginning, which is set 25 years ago. Everything happens now, but I needed there to be these moments, these touchstones between the people they were in the past and the people they are now. And that character Joey, he's, he was a computer nerd back in school and he had the big beige computer and he goes back to his childhood bedroom and it's sitting in the corner. It has the little plastic slip cover over it that he takes off and he has this visceral moment of reconnecting with his younger self as he sits down and he gets into that sort of sense memory of being at that computer.

Jason Blitman: 40:59

Yeah.

Tom Ryan: 40:59

That he sat at as a kid. And that was I actually really enjoyed those scenes where he gets back into the, and he goes back into his old school hacker mode. And it was a way for me to bring the teenage years back into the present in a really physical way. So those were definitely fun scenes to write.

Jason Blitman: 41:14

I mean, It made me sad that I don't know where that computer is from my childhood. I was like.

Tom Ryan: 41:23

Gadget tape.

Jason Blitman: 41:24

That, who knows that I, that wasn't mine. But the, yeah, I was like, oh, what would logging on be like and what would I find? And there are things that, I would save. A OL instant messenger conversations. And I would save JPEGs and I would save, and I wrote plays and short stories like there, I, there's so much on that computer that would it's its own time capsule of

Tom Ryan: 41:55

It is.

Jason Blitman: 41:57

and it's a shame that we've lost that chunk of technology'cause we didn't really know how to hold onto it. I say shame, but plenty of people are probably thrilled that we've lost that chunk of

Tom Ryan: 42:09

Yeah, I mean we've gained a lot, but we've lost a lot as well. And I think it's, I feel fortunate to have grown up in that period where we didn't have any kind of internet or social media, but I also experienced the kind of dawning off it because it felt really magical at the time when you were connect a OL Messenger, MSN messenger that You were connecting with people on chat. I remember IRC chat rooms and it just felt it was really rudimentary when you think about it now. It was so old fashioned looking, but it. Was at the time insane. I remember chatting with gay guys. I was probably 20 in my dorm room chatting with gay guys in Iceland, being like, this is nuts. I'm never gonna meet him. So there's like a bit of safety in this distance, but Wow. And now it's, now it doesn't mean anything. There's no, it's just, it's all there. Everybody's there. It's a big broad taken for granted, mishmash.

Jason Blitman: 42:55

There is a guy who I met in a Yahoo chat room when I was probably 14.

Tom Ryan: 43:03

Yep.

Jason Blitman: 43:04

He wasn't outta the closet. He had a girlfriend and we like became buddies on a OL instant mess. We met in the chat room, then we started chatting on instant messenger. And then I think, the dawn of MySpace, we connected on MySpace, the dawn of Facebook. We connected on Facebook. The dawn of text messaging, we connected and we would text and we've met in person one time

Tom Ryan: 43:26

Wow.

Jason Blitman: 43:27

and we're still connected, but

Tom Ryan: 43:31

How do you how do you still use a OL messenger? How do you chat?

Jason Blitman: 43:34

Now we text,

Tom Ryan: 43:36

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 43:37

now we're texting

Tom Ryan: 43:37

kid. I kid.

Jason Blitman: 43:38

But it's funny, like I knew him, quote unquote when he was closeted with a girlfriend in high school and now he's married to a man with two children. And it's fascinating, like just the journey that we go on.

Tom Ryan: 43:52

For decades, and it's, those were the early days of online friendships. We didn't even know what was happening. And now every, it's so old hat, everybody is connected online and people, teens in particular, they just have access to this giant world of TikTok and Instagram. But back then it felt real. And if you were a closeted queer young person, having access to other closeted queer young people, that you could have a completely wide open. Tell me about your experience. So I can tell you about mine. It was life changing. Life saving in a lot of ways,

Jason Blitman: 44:23

It's interesting that you say that because, I think even now there are, we're able to meet people through social media and in, in more unique ways than, you know, meeting at school. We're meeting in sort of non-traditional ways like we were when we were younger. And just even just yesterday I was, chatting with a, an Instagram buddy who I only know through the world of Instagram about relationships and, he was apologetic about. Being so grim and only talking about the bad things happening in his relationship. And I was like, honestly, as gay men, as humans in general, it is so important that we have conversations like this because we're not, there are complicated and difficult conversations and to not feel alone on the journey of life. It's something we don't even realize how much we need and that. As a young gay person, finding that solace in a chat room I think makes that makes it happening now less strange.

Tom Ryan: 45:29

Oh, totally. Absolutely. And I think I, yeah, and it's, I think we were also a bit less guarded back then, or less contrived. We were just, I remember just having these really open conversations. People now are, young people are it's such a sophisticated approach to being online because the we've learned how to. Present ourselves in a certain way. Whereas in the past I get, I'm sure you were kind, there was a little bit of bs but it was

Jason Blitman: 45:55

Oh sure.

Tom Ryan: 45:56

is me and this is you, but now it's a little bit more of, there's a bit more artifice to it now, I think.

Jason Blitman: 46:00

There's also like everyone knows that you can snap a picture on your phone and send it immediately, right? Once upon a time in a chat room or on a OL instant messenger. That was, it was not that simple,

Tom Ryan: 46:12

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:13

And if you had the digital camera, then you could take a picture with the digital camera, but then you had to plug the camera into your computer and upload it onto the computer. It like was a whole production for one picture and then Uhoh, the file was corrupted. So you need to do it again.

Tom Ryan: 46:28

yep. It feels so innocent to me Now when I think, and that is something I tried to get, I really wanted to hit that year 2000, that Y 2K vibe In this book.

Jason Blitman: 46:36

Really fun.

Tom Ryan: 46:37

I'm glad you picked up on the math class folder.

Jason Blitman: 46:41

I had those folders. I'm so now I like, see, I wish I remember what they were labeled as,'cause they were definitely something like math class.

Tom Ryan: 46:50

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 46:51

Okay. I'm very curious to know what would your role be in solving a crime?

Tom Ryan: 46:57

What would my I would not be the computer genius for sure. I am. Of the three characters. I, there was a point in, when I was writing this book where I really very articulated, I was being a little bit too cutesy with it, where Sam was the street smart Alice was the social smart, and Joey was the tech smart. And I was like, this is just too, this is too cute by half. But I think I'm not, I'm definitely not street smart. I drop me in the middle of any city, I will get lost. I can't. I can't do it, but I am, I think I'm pretty socially adept. I like people and I think my job would be getting in and sliding into a conversation with somebody and getting clues by getting to know them and really having those in real life conversations that you were just talking about. Just really getting deep. And I'm very much an open book. You can ask me literally anything, and I like to have those conversations with other people where I get tell me about you.'cause the most fun conversations. To me are the ones where I'm finding out about somebody else as opposed to, and I think maybe that's the writer in me. I love to hear other people's stories. I love to hear where people grew up. I love to hear about their, how many siblings do you have? Were you close with your, did you have neighbor friends? Where, what? What's your house like? I love that stuff. And so I think that would be my skill as an investigator would be just getting to know the characters and soft interrogating. I would be the good cop for sure.

Jason Blitman: 48:15

That. Listen, it's good to know your skills and it's good to know where you would slide in because who knows when the mystery will be afoot. Were you a Harriet this by fan?

Tom Ryan: 48:26

Oh my gosh, yes. I have an original first edition

Jason Blitman: 48:30

No way.

Tom Ryan: 48:31

Battered I found it at a thrift store. It's a Canadian first edition, and it's beaten. It's not an, it's not worth anything, but I have it. I loved Harriet, the buy, loved it.

Jason Blitman: 48:40

That's really fun. It has come up a handful of times as very queer coded as

Tom Ryan: 48:45

Yeah. Oh yeah, I hear. Yes, definitely.

Jason Blitman: 48:48

just really fun and a lot of young gay men have responded really deeply to Harriet, the Spy. And like when I was a kid, I remember having a speckled notebook and just like observing things and writing it down because I found, the sociology of it all. So interesting.

Tom Ryan: 49:02

I have to show you this because I di I didn't know if you would ask me about other books, but have you read The Little Friend?

Jason Blitman: 49:07

I have not,

Tom Ryan: 49:08

unfortunately. This is Donna Tart's second book. She's only written three novels. One is the Secret History. Actually, these are backwards. Sorry. But,

Jason Blitman: 49:16

no, they're not. I see them just fine.

Tom Ryan: 49:17

Oh, you do? Okay. Secret History was her first big book. Donna Tart wrote The Goldfinch. She won a Pulitzer Prize. Her first book was The Secret History, which she wrote when she was at university. She was at Bennington College and she wrote it and she made a, it was 1992 and it was a massive publishing deal, and it was this huge juggernaut book. It's a great, it's one of my favorite books. And then The Goldfinch, and then 10 years later she wrote, she published The Secret History, and then 10 years after that was The Goldfinch. She's only written these three books. One of them was a massive. A young like a a story of out of nowhere young writer does good. Goldfinch won the Pulitzer Prize, the Secret the Little Friend. Her second book is the one that gets the least respect, but it's my favorite and it's about a young detective and her name is Harriet and she lives in a small town in the South, and it's really good. It's big and fat and dense and really beautifully written, and she's trying to solve the mystery of her. Her infant brother was murdered. Her brother was murdered when she was an infant. He was five. And nobody ever discovered what did it. So 10 years later, it's the summer of her I think she's 11 or 12, and she's trying to solve this murder and I'm convinced that she's called Harriet as an homage to Harriet the spy. Who was The og.

Jason Blitman: 50:29

I love that. Oh, this is good to know. Okay. I have not read Donna Tart at all, so

Tom Ryan: 50:34

Oh, nothing.

Jason Blitman: 50:35

start there. I know I'm a late in life novel reader, so I missed Goldfinch,

Tom Ryan: 50:41

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 50:42

Hearing that, that mystery thing. I will leave you with this because when I asked you about, are there any, mysteries in your life that come to mind? I harken back to. A wonderful podcast series that only had one season and I loved it so much. So I wanna shout it out. But it's called Mystery Show

Tom Ryan: 51:02

With Starly kind,

Jason Blitman: 51:03

with Starly Kind.

Tom Ryan: 51:05

so good.

Jason Blitman: 51:06

And for listeners who have not heard about it, it is basically these like non-important mysteries in someone's life that they like pitch to this woman and she sort and she solves them. And things like there's a belt buckle that someone's grandfather has always had and they want to know where it came from, or there was a. A video store that just disappeared overnight one day and they want to know what happened to the video store. And someone wrote a novel that didn't do very well and Britney Spears had it in her hand in a photo. And it's wait, why the hell did Britney Spears have this wasn't Britney Spear. I think it was

Tom Ryan: 51:44

It was Brittany. Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent.

Jason Blitman: 51:46

these like super fun little mysteries that we don't really think about. I think a lot of us, when we think of mysteries, we think of. Murder,

Tom Ryan: 51:55

yep. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 51:56

But there could be a lot of fun little unsolved mysteries. So

Tom Ryan: 51:59

I

Jason Blitman: 52:00

gets all for you. It's so good.

Tom Ryan: 52:02

Yeah, it's a great, it's a great show and I think that's the thing. There is mystery all around us and the structure of the mystery is always just built in and we're used, we are, we're fine. I think we're fine tuned as humans to ask those questions and go searching for those answers. So we're all detectives of the sort.

Jason Blitman: 52:18

We are. And everyone go get your copy of, we Had a Hunch. It is fun and cozy and delicious and you're gonna be on the edge of your seat the whole time until the very end. Tom, have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you so much for being here.

Tom Ryan: 52:32

so much fun. I had a great time. Thanks a lot.

Jason Blitman: 52:39

I love the pillow accoutrement you have behind you.

Kim Chi: 52:42

Oh yeah. I have a lot of random pillows.

Jason Blitman: 52:45

Is that a loaf of bread, pillow? Yes. Where did that come from?

Kim Chi: 52:51

It was secret Santa Gift where? White Elephant. Yeah. I picked the biggest thing and I'm like, oh, there's a loaf of bread.

Jason Blitman: 52:57

What did you hope it was gonna be?

Kim Chi: 52:59

I don't know. I just tend to go for the biggest things, just'cause like, when it's all wrapped in things and I'm like, all right, like at least it's not gonna be like a little hand sanitizer or something,

Jason Blitman: 53:09

yeah. No, that's very fair. I feel like that was. We're taught that as kids, right? The biggest box has the best toy. And then as you get older you learn that like the money comes in. Small packages.

Kim Chi: 53:21

packages. Yeah, small, but then also small packages at White Elephant can be very underwhelming. Like sometimes there's just like a Starbucks gift card or like an air tag, and I'm like, okay, I don't, I'd rather take my chance on something fun,

Jason Blitman: 53:35

right. A hundred percent. Yeah. I, went to my husband's office, white elephant years ago, and I picked up a similarly shaped item and it was it ended up being a blanket from that like fancy Canadian company and I was like, oh, this is the high end, this blanket.

Kim Chi: 53:55

I could Fancy it like wrapped in a circle? And then there was like wrapping in the middle.

Jason Blitman: 54:01

Maybe

Kim Chi: 54:03

cause was one year where like around holiday time Costco carried pendulum blankets. And then I saw so many of those blankets at a white elephant too.

Jason Blitman: 54:12

it's very possible that's what it was. Oh my God, that's so funny.

Kim Chi: 54:16

And I didn't know when that I'm sounding such like a white elephant snob. Like I'm not at, not at all.

Jason Blitman: 54:22

Are you invited to a lot of white elephants? I feel like I haven't done one in a minute.

Kim Chi: 54:27

I love going to a, if I'm invited, I will go. Like last year I went to one where there was like 60 people there. It was like the most intense, like white elephant that I've ever Yeah. I

Jason Blitman: 54:36

There's.

Kim Chi: 54:37

yeah. It's really interesting to see what people bring to these things.

Jason Blitman: 54:40

people bring and it's interesting to see the strategy of the exchanging and what people do end up going for. And you only get one or two turn. I don't know. It's complicated, but you learn a lot about someone

Kim Chi: 54:52

is true.

Jason Blitman: 54:53

based on their white elephant gift they bring and the gift they choose. This is interesting.

Kim Chi: 55:00

I went to one where it's a bunch of like middle aged Asians and I got a hold of Labu Boo. This is like when Labu Boo crazy was its peak and everyone's like trying to get one. You

Jason Blitman: 55:08

my

Kim Chi: 55:09

get one. So I brought a Labu thinking like, oh, they're gonna eat this up. This gonna be the best gift. Everyone's gonna steal this. And not a single person in the room knew what that was, and the person that picked it and was like, oh, it's a toy. And he looked so offended and I was like. I thought everyone would be fighting for this Labu Boo, but no one cared.

Jason Blitman: 55:29

And then probably six months later everyone was like, oh my God, I wish I took the Labu Boo. I know. Oh, that's so funny. Kimchi, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Kim Chi: 55:41

Thank you. I love to read in many ways.

Jason Blitman: 55:44

yes. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today. And I feel like the first question to ask, of course, is what are you reading? And that you could tell me all the things in all the ways that you're reading.

Kim Chi: 55:56

So I mean, I, I love to have like a physical copy of the book and then I love reading, but then also because I live in LA where I spend so much time in traffic, I also like listening to audio books. Just'cause you spend, like going anywhere during rush hour, it's going to be like an hour to go like three miles. So

Jason Blitman: 56:13

So what is something that you've listened to recently that you've enjoyed?

Kim Chi: 56:15

Oh, so right now I'm reading like two things. One is crying in H Mart and then the other one is, I'm laughing because I'm crying by Youngme May. I guess both themes of the both book is dealing with like generational trauma is like an Asian American, and I'm just like,

Jason Blitman: 56:32

Do you need to talk about something?

Kim Chi: 56:35

those things are like hitting hard right now in this like current political climate,

Jason Blitman: 56:39

yeah. Were you always a reader or listener to books?

Kim Chi: 56:43

Yeah, I have actually been a reader all of my life. So growing up our family was very poor. So like during summertime, like a lot of kids will go to like summer camp and things like that. I would just be at home. And I'd. Walk to the local public library. And I spent all day there just like reading and like using the computer, checking out magazines borrowing as many c as I can to bring it into my computer at home. And our public local library also had a program where if you read five books, they give you a little voucher for bagel and cream cheese that are shop nearby. So I'd read like a mad person because like my. My family wouldn't ever buy me those kind of like food things. So then that was like the way for me to eat American food,

Jason Blitman: 57:29

Oh wow. Would you try to do that like once a week?

Kim Chi: 57:34

um, Multiple times a week. There wasn't a limit, so I just read, I'd make sure read five books in one day.

Jason Blitman: 57:40

wow. What a genius idea.

Kim Chi: 57:43

Right?

Jason Blitman: 57:44

So do you still love bagels and cream cheese or did that turn into a hate for bagel and cream

Kim Chi: 57:49

Oh no. I love bagels and cream cheese,

Jason Blitman: 57:51

What's your bagel order?

Kim Chi: 57:53

Ooh. Okay. So it depends on what city I'm in. If I'm in New

Jason Blitman: 57:56

Yes.

Kim Chi: 57:57

Like bagels are gonna be like good no matter what, but like in LA bagels aren't good.

Jason Blitman: 58:01

No, in New York. What's your New York bagel order?

Kim Chi: 58:04

in New York I love a, if I'm in the mood for something savory, I love an onion bagel with garden veggie cream cheese. And if I'm feeling something like sweet, then I love a blueberry bagel with plain cream cheese. But then also I love a good like lock sandwich. Like the locks, tomato, capers, onions, like the whole shebang. Then when in la the, when their bagels aren't good, but then you go to these like specialty shop and everyone's doing these rip and dip bagels. Now, have you ever had one of those

Jason Blitman: 58:32

What is a rip and dip bagel?

Kim Chi: 58:34

instead of like bagel cut in half and cream cheese on it, you take like a whole bagel and you like rip a piece and you scoop the cream cheese. This is like the whole like trendy thing. All the bagel chef they're doing. It makes sense if you like cream cheese.

Jason Blitman: 58:48

Are the, is it a way to disguise a bagel that isn't that good?

Kim Chi: 58:52

I don't know. I think they're just trying to like, make it like a,

Jason Blitman: 58:54

Something fun?

Kim Chi: 58:56

something fun or maybe it's like a social media gimmick because everyone's like ripping these bagels and then just like scooping up the cream cheese with the ripped bagels.

Jason Blitman: 59:03

Have you tried it yet?

Kim Chi: 59:04

Of course. Yeah. I'll try, you know, confessions of a true fat ass. It's good. I'm someone who eat bagels so I can eat cream cheese, bagels merely a vessel and an excuse if you will.

Jason Blitman: 59:16

That's so funny. I feel like that's me with peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I would just eat like spoonfuls of both

Kim Chi: 59:25

know butter and jelly.

Jason Blitman: 59:26

together. But that's too much. So

Kim Chi: 59:31

Then you must like Uncrustables.

Jason Blitman: 59:33

I think I've become a peanut butter and jelly snob. So I think if Uncrustables were made with high quality peanut butter and preserves, then I totally would. But I can't just buy. What is currently known as an uncrustable and

Kim Chi: 59:49

Okay. But so mice thing where a good peanut butter is, like how it doesn't, it's always so runny. So like how do you procure that in a solid peanut butter and jelly? Because like I, I love a good like fancy peanut butter too, but it also has to hold like synergy with the jelly

Jason Blitman: 1:00:10

most. Most of them you're supposed to refrigerate after opening,

Kim Chi: 1:00:16

Oh, are you?

Jason Blitman: 1:00:17

firms it up a little.

Kim Chi: 1:00:18

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:18

Yeah. And I recently looked into this because I left peanut butter out one day without putting it in the fridge, and Google said that it slows down the like process of breaking down of the oils, breaking down. To keep it fresher longer, but like leaving it out won't make it go bad. It just would make it it, it leave putting it in the fridge, prolongs its life.

Kim Chi: 1:00:49

Okay. I

Jason Blitman: 1:00:50

So you can leave it out,

Kim Chi: 1:00:51

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:52

but the fridge firms it up a little. But then, okay, here's a hot tip. It, if it's too firm, it's hard to spread. So if you toast the bread a little bit.

Kim Chi: 1:01:03

And it gets a little melty and ooey

Jason Blitman: 1:01:05

bit melty and it makes it a little easier to spread. It still holds and is spreadable. Anyway, that's my P-B-J-P-S-A.

Kim Chi: 1:01:14

Okay. Obviously like I I just love talking about food,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:17

yeah, of course. Before

Kim Chi: 1:01:19

why I have a cookbook coming

Jason Blitman: 1:01:20

yes, I know. Before we talk about your book, I have to know if this chapter of your life had a title. What would that be?

Kim Chi: 1:01:29

right now,

Jason Blitman: 1:01:30

Yeah. The life that the chapter of your life that you're in right now.

Kim Chi: 1:01:34

Right now. Right now, currently, it just feels like trying to survive. While preserving my mental health, I, every day I log into social media and then I just see like awful news. But then also I can't delete social media because like my work evolves around like doing a lot of things on social media. So it's like a double-edged sword where like I'm forced to be on these things, but then also like I have to navigate this medium in a way where I don't like spiral, just reading bad news over and over. So right now, survive is the word that I would use.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:08

obsessed. I know it's unfortunate, but I feel like that's, we're all in that together. But on Happier note, let's talk about your cookbook.

Kim Chi: 1:02:21

Yes, Kim cheats the world.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:24

Eats the World, which when this episode airs is out now, wherever you get your books 75 recipes fit for a drag queen. How did a cookbook come to be for you?

Kim Chi: 1:02:36

So I guess the whole idea started during pandemic. So for my work, I tore around the world and I get to eat like amazing, like delicious cuisine from all over the world, which I'm like, which is like the best part of the job for me. And when the pandemic happened and I wasn't traveling, and I'm like, i'm like craving this dish from like Peru. And obviously like a lot of the restaurants weren't open either, like in Los Angeles. I'm like I guess I'm just gonna have to like, recreate these dishes at home using like American kitchen, like ingredients, or like ingredients that I can find in like American grocery stores. So then I just started cooking all these like global dishes at home and I'm like. There's so much like beauty in like global cuisine, so hopefully like maybe I can introduce them to the audience to recreate those dishes at home. Maybe like it'll spark like people's interest in like global cuisine too, because there's so much to like life outside of like chicken tenders and pizza.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:36

That is very true. You call yourself a culinary connoisseur from a very young age. How did food become important to you?

Kim Chi: 1:03:45

So I guess growing up in both like America and Korea and then being able to taste food from like different cultures and having like grandparents and parents who are like very passionate about food. It has opened my eyes to like the world of the culinary delights and also like I am someone who constantly needs new stimulation. And that stimulation includes like trying new flavors, fla and textures and things like that. So even since I was young, I would save what little money I had and then I'd check out like. If there's ethnic cuisine that I haven't tried before, like I have to go taste it. So like I save my allowance and take myself like to the Thai restaurant in my town. When the Ethiopia restaurant opened up in town, like I had to go and try it. When my friend told me about an Indian restaurant, that was like opening up. And I think that's how like my level of global cuisine got started Just. Finding like new restaurants that serve like a whole world of flavors that I've never experienced before. And I'm still same way in like in LA too, where we have like food from like all over the world here. If there's a cuisine I haven't tried I'd get out my friends, like, all right, I'm gonna go try Cambodian food today. Who wants to go with me? All right, I'm gonna try like food from like Nepal, like who

Jason Blitman: 1:04:57

you. You are the friend to text when someone wants to go to a restaurant.

Kim Chi: 1:05:02

It is true. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:04

I, my husband is a recent vegetarian and it, the only reason why that's a bummer for me is because we would go to restaurants and in order to try the most things, we would share a bunch of stuff. And so we don't really do that too much anymore. So instead I have my list of friends who I know are like, always game to just share a bunch of things and try whatever. So next time you're in town, I'll know to reach out to you. We can go try all the things.

Kim Chi: 1:05:30

Yes, please. I would love that. And also like when it comes to like Asian cuisine, like eating vegetarian is relatively easy, but then also the same time when you like wanna make a substitution in like a lot of these places, like a lot of places just don't like fuck with And on top of that, even when you order like a vegetable dish, there could be like a hidden pork somewhere. And on the other,

Jason Blitman: 1:05:51

I love the hidden pork, but not everyone does.

Kim Chi: 1:05:55

But then on the other end, like when you go to a Western restaurant, sometimes like a vegetarian option will be like pasta or oh, here's a piece of grilled mushroom. So you know, vegetarians, I hear you. I feel for you.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:06

I know. But you're right. A lot of Asian cuisine, a lot of Mediterranean cuisine. Very solid vegetarian options. Yes. Such good

Kim Chi: 1:06:15

Vegetarian Indian cuisine, sex kiss. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:19

Okay. Yeah. It's not terrible.

Kim Chi: 1:06:22

I guess you're just not going to the right

Jason Blitman: 1:06:23

I know. No. We are. I just like giving my husband a hard time. Okay. Your persona, your drag name is of course, kimchi. You have a recipe for kimchi in the book. What does. What does kimchi, as a feeling mean to you? Where did the name come from? I didn't know that you could kimchi anything. I didn't realize that it wasn't just you or cabbage until the book now I know.

Kim Chi: 1:06:50

So Kim, just the National Dish of Korea and Korea's a country where four seasons are very distinct, so summer's gonna be really hot and winter's gonna be really cold and. To eat vegetables During wintertime, they started pickling vegetables. It's common in Korea, not in like the modern times, but back in the day during fall when it's like cabbage season all the families would gather like large amounts and everyone would just pickle like large amounts of like cabbage. And that'll last the entire year to the next fall.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:26

Oh wow.

Kim Chi: 1:07:28

So I was like, if I'm picking a drag name, I need to pick something that sounds feminine, but also represents my culture. And kimchi seemed like the right fit.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:36

Yes. And you are the national dish

Kim Chi: 1:07:40

yes. Hopefully the National Korea. So the kimchi recipe in the book is a tomato, kimchi. If I have a tomato painting behind

Jason Blitman: 1:07:48

Oh, yes, you do.

Kim Chi: 1:07:49

I love tomatoes, but also there's a lot of kimchi recipes out there, and traditionally kimchi is very like time consuming. But I want to just do a little quick kimchi recipe in there and like a familiar ingredient. Everyone becomes like familiar with the idea of kimchi and kimchi doesn't have to be hard and difficult. It can be quick, simple, flavorful, and healthy. So what, kimchi is always healthy,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:09

Glamorous, fabulous, right? Kimchi give you all sorts of things.

Kim Chi: 1:08:13

yeah. Spicy

Jason Blitman: 1:08:14

it's a set, it's a mindset,

Kim Chi: 1:08:16

Kim choose a feeling.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:17

right? Exactly.

Kim Chi: 1:08:19

It's pungent. It's full of probiotics.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:22

Yes. Oh

Kim Chi: 1:08:23

gonna be pooping.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:24

So healthy, oh my God. The pictures in the book are so fun. I am so excited to cook things from this. I I'm curious if, for the listener who is. Who is flavor curious, who is nervous about trying Korean food? Who is maybe not into spicy things or fermented things? What, where would you say is a good place to start?

Kim Chi: 1:08:50

I feel like Korean cuisine has become more like the least like intimidating like cuisine to try in US right now with the popularization of like K-pop and K drama and like just Korean media in general. There's so many korean restaurant's been popping all over, like the nation. And if you're like picky and if you're, if you like, don't handle like those kind of food there's so many dishes that you can get into like duck for example, which is like a rice cake.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:15

Te is so

Kim Chi: 1:09:16

sauce and you can load it up with cheese and noodles and sausages. Korean hotdog is also a good one, which is also, there's a recipe for it in the book. It's like a cheesy hotdog, like covered with like sugar and whatever sauce you put on ketchup, mustard. Yeah. There's plenty of Korean dishes. You just have to be in a mindset to open your heart up and let it in.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:38

Open your heart, your mouth, your belly. Exactly. Okay, we have to quickly segue to, you are taking over the world this year because we also have donut achi.

Kim Chi: 1:09:51

And the library vendors?

Jason Blitman: 1:09:53

The library Avengers, which is your your young adult novel coming out like you are a font of content kimchi. Tell us, tell the people what is this book about?

Kim Chi: 1:10:08

All right. It is loosely based on my life, but it's also very fantastical. As I mentioned previously, the public libraries are very important to me. And one day I was reading about how a lot of the public libraries are getting defunded because a lot of people don't feel like libraries are an important resource in their town. And that made me really upset. So I tweeted about how much the public libraries meant to me and my experience with the library. And then that tweet ended up going viral, especially among the library community. And librarians from all over the world were reaching out to me saying, thank you for speaking up for us. No one ever speaks up for the librarians. And then a publisher reached out to me saying, do you wanna write a novel about saving the public library? So it's a story about a Korean American kid who's, queer and the mayor wants to demolish the local library to build a swanky mall. Him and the library Avengers basically. Set on a journey to save the public, local library.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:09

Ugh. I

Kim Chi: 1:11:10

And hopefully like maybe this book can inspire other children in the future, you know, to be accepting of themselves and also love the libraries as much as I did.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:22

Della Hamachi and the Library Avengers is also out an hour if you get your books. You obviously loved the library so much. As a kid, you read so much to get your bagels and cream cheese. Are, is there a book that you remember from your childhood or even recently that really had an impact on you?

Kim Chi: 1:11:38

So all the works of Royal Doll especially like Charlie, the Chocolate Factory again, food themed,

Jason Blitman: 1:11:46

yes. Yes.

Kim Chi: 1:11:47

but the world is like so imaginative too, like all the squirrels, like peeling like the nuts to like the little crazy world with the mpa, lupas and like the little like chocolate river. This is before I even saw like any movie and things like that. I'd read that book over and over again. Just imagining like what a beautiful world it will be to be able to visit a factory just full of these like sweet trees and magical. And then I also love the work, the Beverly, clearly, like

Jason Blitman: 1:12:19

The Ramona Quimbee books

Kim Chi: 1:12:20

EE and all those. Yeah. I guess because I didn't, that was like a life that I didn't grow up in, as like a kid who just stayed in my room and things like that. I'm just like, oh, so this is like what, like an average American kid like, grows up to be,

Jason Blitman: 1:12:33

yeah, as you're looking over the page eating your bagel,

Kim Chi: 1:12:37

Yes, exactly.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:38

Oh yeah. It's the rolled doll books were, I think, super transformative for a lot of people Yeah, Beverly Cleary too. I remember reading all of those as a kid and I has such an impact. Kimchi eats the World Cookbook is out now. Donut Tele and the Library Avengers also out. Now. You have so much content everyone can find you online, on social media. Much to our chagrin that we have to be there, but we are there. Anything else to share with the people about your books, about your life, about anything

Kim Chi: 1:13:09

Yeah, please support my books because especially in times like this, it means a lot to have queer literature

Jason Blitman: 1:13:15

Yes.

Kim Chi: 1:13:16

and you know, like queer authors, you know.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:19

amazing. Thank you for being here.

Kim Chi: 1:13:21

thank you so much for having me. Oh my god, I've been having so much fun just chatting with you.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:25

I'm so glad.

1:13:26

Tom Kimchi. Thank you both so much for being here. Everyone, have a wonderful rest of your day and I will see you next week. Bye