0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to Gays Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have my first returning main guest on Gays Reading, and that is the delightful Catherine Newman, who talks to me about her new book Wreck, which is of course the Follow Up to Sandwich, which was one of my favorite books last year. is so funny and so delightful, and I love her so much, and I. Feel like this is the exact same thing that happened last time she was on the show where I just felt like I couldn't edit much at all. So you're getting pretty much a raw version of what our conversation was, which is super fun. And my guest gay reader today is Rachel Ranya Katz, whose book isn't it Obvious is also out. Now both of their bios can be found in the show notes and both rec and isn't it obvious? Uh, are on sale, if you're new to GA's reading, welcome. And of course, if you're coming back, welcome back. Always a pleasure. And I hate to beg, but We're so close to a hundred ratings on Apple Podcasts, so it would be so exciting if by the end of the year we could hit 105 star ratings. So if you have it in you to head on over to Apple Podcasts and. Click the subscribe, but also five star buttons that would mean so much to this little indie podcast and hope to get other ears listening to gaze reading as well. Um, we are on social media at Gaze Reading over on Instagram And the show notes and the link tree on Instagram are filled with a ton of other information. We have merch, there's a substack. You could watch these episodes on YouTube. Uh, there's, you know, always a lot going on. There's of course the book club through Stora, and I just announced the other day a new book festival that I'm producing in Palm Springs, the Palm Springs Book Fest, and I am so excited for that. That's happening the end of March, March 27th through the 29th. The initial lineup is so exciting. We have folks like Claire Lombardo and Chris Whitaker and 3D Umer Gar, and Show Barrao and Jonathan Capehart, and it's gonna be so, so, so great. So if you happen to find yourselves in Palm Springs at the end of March or have been looking for a reason to get away to Palm Springs, the end of March is a great time. You could find out more information about that@psbookfest.org. And you know, there's a, and you could find that over on Instagram as well. So there's just like a lot happening and I'm so excited. And as always, I'm super grateful to have you listeners along this journey. So enough for me. Without further ado, please enjoy the fantastic authors Catherine Neuman and Rachel Rania Katz.

Jason Blitman: 3:31

Because all of this, this initial greeting each other is, is good content

Catherine Newman: 3:36

gold. The part where I'm like, I can't click on the video

Jason Blitman: 3:41

I'm wiping my brow. Um, it's my brow. It's,

Catherine Newman: 3:47

You are so like Elizabethan.

Jason Blitman: 3:50

I am, I'm very, I'm dainty. And then.

Catherine Newman: 3:53

Yeah. You need like a lace, trimmed, hanky.

Jason Blitman: 3:57

Yes. Instead it's a Kleenex from a

Catherine Newman: 4:00

understand. That's right. People like us, we keep Kleenex in business.

Jason Blitman: 4:07

We do, uh, seriously. Um.

Catherine Newman: 4:09

I know, I know. I have them all over the house and, and every now and then I look, and you can cut this out of the recording, but every now and then I look and I feel like there's like a box of Kleenex and like a. And like a big bottle of like body lotion and I feel like, oh, does it look like someone's like jerking off station? And should I just make sure that I like separate those two things,

Jason Blitman: 4:36

Franklin and my individual nightstands because we live in the desert, our hands are dry.

Catherine Newman: 4:43

And runny noses. Same. I mean, I don't live in the desert, but like my skin is very dry. But I look at it and I'm like, do like, do the people who come feed the cats, are they like, oh,

Jason Blitman: 4:54

What 17-year-old boy lives here,

Catherine Newman: 4:57

Yeah. Yes. And jerks off like in every room in the house.

Jason Blitman: 5:03

Um, you'll be thrilled to know that my, um, reactive airway disease is alive and kicking today.

Catherine Newman: 5:11

Uh, no.

Jason Blitman: 5:15

this is very on-brand for you and the book. I was diagnosed with asthma as a teenager

Catherine Newman: 5:20

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 5:21

later in life. Someone a pulmonologist was like, oh, you don't have asthma, you have reactive airway disease'cause you don't like regularly need to maintain the asthma. This is a thing that is triggered by outside forces. So of course it's not asthma'cause that's too regular.

Catherine Newman: 5:41

Asthma's so regular. This is something really special.

Jason Blitman: 5:45

In fact, I would say it's rad re

Catherine Newman: 5:49

it's very rad.

Jason Blitman: 5:50

reactive Airway

Catherine Newman: 5:51

And are you part of like a Facebook group that's like rad? We're rad.

Jason Blitman: 5:56

Rad,

Catherine Newman: 5:57

Living with Rad.

Jason Blitman: 5:58

um, or Living Rad.

Catherine Newman: 6:03

Living Rad. Oh my God.

Jason Blitman: 6:07

Um.

Catherine Newman: 6:08

I turned out to have something called, this is really, really, again, feel free to, you know, just edit this right out. But I

Jason Blitman: 6:17

This episode is gonna be two hours fully online.

Catherine Newman: 6:21

my many ailments, as you know, I have many ailments, most of them quite peculiar. Uh, I have something called no burping syndrome. I thought that I was just like a person who didn't burp. Like, I never burp. I can't burp. Like people who can like drink a coke and burp the alphabet. I've been like, why can't I do that? I would love to be able to do that. I don't burp at all. Like, I need to

Jason Blitman: 6:49

In your whole life, you've never burped.

Catherine Newman: 6:52

I've burped like four times and, and by the way. Like I burped not that long ago, and I was like, oh my God, I burped and, and only Michael

Jason Blitman: 7:04

Put it,

Catherine Newman: 7:04

Yeah, yeah. Call the, call the press. Um,

Jason Blitman: 7:09

add it to my file.

Catherine Newman: 7:11

needless to say, there is a Reddit community, a vibrant Reddit community

Jason Blitman: 7:20

Burber community.

Catherine Newman: 7:21

A no burps community. You, until you are diagnosed with these ailments, you don't realize that you're missing out on some of the great communities in the world.

Jason Blitman: 7:32

I knew because I know you, that we were gonna have the best tangents today. I couldn't have dreamed, I couldn't have dreamed that we would've started with no burps.

Catherine Newman: 7:49

No Burber.

Jason Blitman: 7:50

is like, I'm done for the year. This, I don't even need to do anything

Catherine Newman: 7:54

Now you're gonna go on the Reddit thread and you're gonna be like, is one of these people, Kathryn, maybe, Maybe she's in here describing her experience as a non

Jason Blitman: 8:04

I will know because your handle is wrecky sandwich. Um, so stupid. You are the first ever repeat main guest on gay's reading.

Catherine Newman: 8:24

Really, I'm so honored.

Jason Blitman: 8:26

other people back in like different capacities. But you just wrote the fastest? I think

Catherine Newman: 8:32

so thrilled. I am thrilled to be back. I have literally never spoken publicly about no burping syndrome. So

Jason Blitman: 8:40

This is a gays reading exclusive.

Catherine Newman: 8:42

is, is this branded?

Jason Blitman: 8:51

Oh my God. My rad.

Catherine Newman: 8:58

No,

Jason Blitman: 8:59

God. I

Catherine Newman: 9:00

I'm okay.

Jason Blitman: 9:01

is, I like, we have to be so serious.

Catherine Newman: 9:04

So

Jason Blitman: 9:04

Otherwise I'm gonna have to edit out all my ratting.

Catherine Newman: 9:07

oh, you're

Jason Blitman: 9:07

Geez.

Catherine Newman: 9:08

r Jeez.

Jason Blitman: 9:10

how you doing this morning? Or I guess it's now, it's, uh, it's noonish for you.

Catherine Newman: 9:14

It is noonish. I am good. Um, if you hear the cats, they're com, first they were complaining that I hadn't fed them, and now they're just as chatty, but they're talking about how good their lunch was. And they need to mill around like reminiscing aloud about how great it was. So if you hear them, they're just, that's how they are.

Jason Blitman: 9:40

perf. I'm ob

Catherine Newman: 9:41

They're like, oh my God, we got cat food. It was so great.

Jason Blitman: 9:44

was it a little, a little moist?

Catherine Newman: 9:46

It was a little moist. We loved it. We were hungry and then we got to food and now we're so happy.

Jason Blitman: 9:53

Amazing. That's okay. They could mill about as much as they want. Um, last time you were on gay's reading, I wasn't doing a video component. So now there's a video component and people could see your gallery wall. That was a hot topic of your first visit. We talked a lot about your gallery wall, which is still fabulous, and Perry.

Catherine Newman: 10:18

thank you. Oh, also you can see the weird outdoor broom. I was in the process of fixing with

Jason Blitman: 10:25

Oh, I literally wouldn't have seen it unless you, you, thank you for calling it out. It was the other way.

Catherine Newman: 10:32

no, I can't. Oh my God. What is my problem? Oh no, it's gonna get worse over there. Uh, we're in a very, a very narrow band of the part of my house. I'm comfortable showing.

Jason Blitman: 10:44

Um, I also re-listened to our episode this morning, which I know you've never listened to'cause you hate the sound of your own voice.

Catherine Newman: 10:51

it is true.

Jason Blitman: 10:52

Um, but I was drinking outta the same mug'cause I said I'm drinking out of a, a Captain Hook mug and I am.

Catherine Newman: 10:58

And, And, there it

Jason Blitman: 11:00

And there it is. Anyway, that's all.

Catherine Newman: 11:02

And since our first episode, I have been to the place where you live.

Jason Blitman: 11:07

yes, that's

Catherine Newman: 11:08

And so now I just have a different feeling like I was in that movie set town you live in, unbelievably. Picturesque. Gorgeous. It was amazing. I came out of the airport, I was on the phone with Jason. Jason was picking me up and he said, what can you see? And I said, oh my God, I can see a mountain. And he was like, not helpful. You remember that? You were like, that's not really gonna narrow down

Jason Blitman: 11:38

one of the tiniest airports in the world,

Catherine Newman: 11:41

Uh, yes. It was a, but nonetheless, I had a

Jason Blitman: 11:43

still hard. Right, exactly. Um, you know, my favorite story from that experience was you sang goodnight to all the writers the first night of the festival going up to your room and 20 minutes later coming back'cause you had fomo.

Catherine Newman: 12:02

Did I come back in like a Victorian night gown?

Jason Blitman: 12:05

Yes.

Catherine Newman: 12:07

I'm sure I did.

Jason Blitman: 12:08

Yes.

Catherine Newman: 12:09

I know I loved it so much. I had the best time and. I was a little nervous because I wasn't drinking, and I, you, I am like newly, still fairly newly, a non-drinker. And um, and I was like, oh, everyone's gonna be drinking and I'm gonna just feel so weird. And, but then it turned out like a ton of people aren't, weren't drinking and it was so fun. And so I like shyly went upstairs and then I just couldn't stand to miss anything.

Jason Blitman: 12:41

No, that was, that was amazing. Oh my God. Um, well it has been a time we, and now we have, we're back in the world of Rocky and her people, and I was so happy. To see them again in my imagination. And by them, I mean you and your

Catherine Newman: 13:01

Uh, yeah, I know. Let's just cut Ray to it.

Jason Blitman: 13:05

Um, I was shocked, and I don't, don't take this the wrong way, but I was shocked that it made me laugh as much as Sandwich did and

Catherine Newman: 13:14

Oh

Jason Blitman: 13:15

feel as much as Sandwich did.

Catherine Newman: 13:16

I am so glad.

Jason Blitman: 13:18

Yeah, it wasn't a cash grab as far as I was concerned.

Catherine Newman: 13:20

Oh, I,

Jason Blitman: 13:21

You weren't like, I'm gonna write a sequel to get that, get that dough.

Catherine Newman: 13:24

Oh, no, I just had more to say as is the way of Raiders, I suppose. Yeah. A little more to say.

Jason Blitman: 13:34

if Sandwich was reproductive mayhem on Beach Reed bread, what is rec?

Catherine Newman: 13:45

Do you have an answer to that?

Jason Blitman: 13:46

God dammit. No.

Catherine Newman: 13:48

I, I mean, I feel like. I think of rec, I don't have a quippy thing, but I do think of rec as, um, I mean it is like diagnostic mayhem, but I think of it as like really a book in every way about, um, living with uncertainty,

Jason Blitman: 14:07

Hmm.

Catherine Newman: 14:09

living just like the human condition of not knowing what happens next. Um. Or what things mean or, or living with something that you can't make an either or decision about, you know, and that, and so the book is Rocky dealing with a bunch of different situations that she just has to like hold, even though that is not in her nature. Her nature is to solve problems, decide something's good or bad, and move on it accordingly. And in every way. This book. Um, in this book, she's being confronted with stuff where she can't do it.

Jason Blitman: 14:52

Mm-hmm.

Catherine Newman: 14:53

Um,

Jason Blitman: 14:54

to come up with something quippy in my

Catherine Newman: 14:55

oh, I feel it coming.

Jason Blitman: 14:57

think what I got

Catherine Newman: 14:58

Yeah, I have a pen. I'm writing it down.

Jason Blitman: 15:01

is grief of plenty.

Catherine Newman: 15:08

Grief of plenty,

Jason Blitman: 15:10

How is that?

Catherine Newman: 15:11

like horn of plenty, but. Grief of

Jason Blitman: 15:14

Well, no,'cause like, there is a, there's a section in your book where the, the word plenty comes up around Thanksgiving, and that could have been another title.

Catherine Newman: 15:25

plenty.

Jason Blitman: 15:27

There is this abundance of what Rocky has in her life. Um, and yet it's also about grief. It's, you know, in so many ways.

Catherine Newman: 15:40

Yes. I love that. I mean, plenty. God, that's so good.

Jason Blitman: 15:46

Yeah. I would say plenty of grief, but like that doesn't, that wasn't right.

Catherine Newman: 15:50

yeah, no, I know, right? That gives a different flavor. Yeah, I like that. I mean, I really, it's so interesting. I didn't realize it was a book that's as much about grief as it turns out it

Jason Blitman: 16:02

Hmm

Catherine Newman: 16:04

Um, like somebody wrote me an email who read an early copy and said that she feels like the entire book is, is Rocky grieving her mother. And that just was such a trip to me. It just does food for thought, you know, whether or not, I think that's what the book is about. Like somebody thought that's what the book is about, and I just was like, wow, I really have to think about

Jason Blitman: 16:30

Hmm.

Catherine Newman: 16:31

I don't know what I think

Jason Blitman: 16:32

Well, there's also just like the grief of your youth, or the grief of expectations of what you think your life is going to be, just like the grief of getting older, you know?

Catherine Newman: 16:43

yeah. There's that. There's obviously the. You know, her identification with the grief of a grieving parent, um, which is a lot, obviously what that book is about or that, that her weird kind of preemptive grief all the time about like, who else is she gonna lose and is she gonna survive that? Um, which I identify with very strongly.

Jason Blitman: 17:08

It's like perpetually bracing yourself. Like

Catherine Newman: 17:12

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 17:12

yeah.

Catherine Newman: 17:13

Yeah, just, but also try not to miss everything'cause you're so braced for the possibility. You know, I, I feel like hopefully he's not gonna figure out how to listen to this.'cause mostly he doesn't find stuff that's not just like a photo or a review in the times. But my dad,

Jason Blitman: 17:32

Mm-hmm.

Catherine Newman: 17:33

dad, if you did figure out how to listen to this, but you won't. He's 93 and like he is going to die eventually. He's. Very healthy and I just need to like hold that fact loosely and enjoy the fuck out of him.

Jason Blitman: 17:58

Yeah.

Catherine Newman: 17:59

And it's really a heavy lift, you know, just like. Putting something sort of to the side where you still see it in your peripheral vision all the time, and just being in the, in the here and now,

Jason Blitman: 18:13

Um, I two important facts from yesterday. Um, I quoted you in therapy yesterday, and I also cried for the first time. In the years that I've been going to therapy, I cried for the first time. Yeah. Because I was talking about my grandpa, who I loved so much, and I think having just finished the book and then like talking, you know, reading about the grandfather character in the book and just like the journey he was on and, um, sort of falling in love with him. And so what I, what I will tell you, I'll tell you what I quoted you, um, about, but we were just talking about life in general and, um. Sort of, uh, the, the navigating the abundance of both highs and lows. And I don't, this isn't giving anything away for the book, but it, it does happen to be a beautiful moment that comes later. Um, I know most of my listeners listen to read the book first anyway, but, um, the question comes up of. How will I have wanted to spend this time?

Catherine Newman: 19:29

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 19:30

And that was so profound to me and just like such a great reminder of like, okay, when I look back, what will I remember? What won't I remember and how do I really want to spend my time? So that's exactly what you're saying, you know, you know that your father is eventually gonna die because we all do. Do you wanna spend your time worrying about it or enjoying your time with him? And, and it's, it's a lot to hold.

Catherine Newman: 19:56

isn't it? I know, I, it's really true. I mean, I. I think about that with grief and I think about that with anxiety also, where, um, the way someone made a case to me at some point for taking an anti-anxiety medication, which I. Do take and would do free commercials for.

Jason Blitman: 20:18

Me too. Can we? Let's go commercial. IW

Catherine Newman: 20:21

freaking love it so much. Like it, I will take it forever. I'm not one of the, I'm not, I have no interest in like, not being on it, and I have plenty of anxiety. It's not, believe me, it's not like it, you

Jason Blitman: 20:33

Yeah. I have an abundance if someone wants

Catherine Newman: 20:35

but I

Jason Blitman: 20:36

I have plenty. I have

Catherine Newman: 20:39

over. Right. But when somebody said to me, um. What, what else could you do with this time that anxiety is taking up?

Jason Blitman: 20:53

Hmm.

Catherine Newman: 20:54

And I was like, wow, I could do a lot with that time. Like just that. And so it's a similar kind of question of like, you know, how much more could you enjoy your life? If you could just. Like, hold the grief, but just a little to the side.

Jason Blitman: 21:15

Yeah.

Catherine Newman: 21:16

I don't know. I'm work, working on it. I mean, but it's like an active practice. I guess that's what practices are, is like, you don't finish. It's not like you get it sorted, it's done. Like I just recenter all the time in the here and now because otherwise I'm gonna be, you know, sobbing, graveside in my brain.'cause that's where I go. Ah.

Jason Blitman: 21:38

Yeah, and, and I, I have justified laziness as rest. In terms of how I wanna spend my time or how will I have wanted to spend my time

Catherine Newman: 21:55

Huh?

Jason Blitman: 21:56

and I'm like, oh no. I need to really make sure that I am resting when I'm resting and that I

Catherine Newman: 22:04

Active, resting, active things that aren't

Jason Blitman: 22:07

Yeah. Or active laziness. Right? Like, like I can Sure. Let me actively procrastinate, you know?

Catherine Newman: 22:49

I see what you mean. I know those things where like reminding yourself to make a decision about how you spend your time versus just letting it sort

Jason Blitman: 23:00

Pass. Right, right. I if i'll, it sure. I will be lazy, but I'm gonna commit to being lazy.

Catherine Newman: 23:07

Rather than half-assed, like responding to emails for hours on a Sunday when I could be doing something fun or fully being a sloth.

Jason Blitman: 23:18

Sure. And, and if you fully commit to being this slot, then, then maybe you'll have more time and more energy

Catherine Newman: 23:26

I, I,

Jason Blitman: 23:26

to be pr, you know, whatever.

Catherine Newman: 23:28

feel completely that way.

Jason Blitman: 23:30

Um, something that comes up in the book that was maybe the biggest revelation of my life is that shoots and ladders really prepares you for life.

Catherine Newman: 23:49

Classic Jason. love that.

Jason Blitman: 23:53

Classic Jason quoting me back to myself and me thinking I'm so.

Catherine Newman: 24:01

That is so funny. I know. It's so funny. I think shoots and ladders repairs you for so many things, the ups and downs of life, and also the shame of it.'cause in my edition of it, one of the, one of the shoots is this. Like, obviously greedy little kid eating a bucket of unripe apples, and then like, you know, she has the runs or whatever. They don't show you that at the bottom, but like,

Jason Blitman: 24:34

But we

Catherine Newman: 24:34

know. that's the implication. And I just like that game where you're like, uh, you're bad. Like you're bad and you'll, you'll pay.

Jason Blitman: 24:46

high highs and the low lows.

Catherine Newman: 24:48

Yeah. And, and what did you do to get there? What stupid ass thing could you have done differently

Jason Blitman: 24:53

did you have that revelation that you were like, oh my God, this

Catherine Newman: 24:57

and

Jason Blitman: 24:58

life? Yeah.

Catherine Newman: 25:01

I, there are things I write down over the years that like occur to me and I just keep them in case they're useful. And that image of the little girl with the bucket of green

Jason Blitman: 25:10

Oh my God.

Catherine Newman: 25:12

it has loomed as this like. Punitive image like throughout my life. It's one of those guiding principles of like, you don't wanna be that you are gonna be on the shitter all night.'cause you were a greedy little bitch.

Jason Blitman: 25:27

And with those jeans.

Catherine Newman: 25:29

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 25:35

It for you. It doesn't need to be a bucket of apples. It could be, you know, a thimble of whole milk.

Catherine Newman: 25:40

Oh my God. Right? I'm gonna be on the shitter anyway. It's so true. Greedy little bitch. With your thimble of whole milk, you put it in your iced coffee like a whore.

Jason Blitman: 25:57

Oh my God. Um, have you found anything good on buy Nothing

Catherine Newman: 26:06

Oh my God.

Jason Blitman: 26:07

here? I'm asking you genuine questions.

Catherine Newman: 26:11

no, you're such a liar. That is so not a genuine question. That is a question. It's completely designed to make me laugh. Um,

Jason Blitman: 26:21

I feel seen, I feel so seen.

Catherine Newman: 26:23

so if you haven't read rec, um. Rocky spends a lot of time on buy Nothing. Mostly just to make herself laugh and, and, um, she and her kids text each other photos of things from buy Nothing, which is of course what we do in my family, where we're like, you need this, and it'll just be like literally

Jason Blitman: 26:43

half a watermelon?

Catherine Newman: 26:44

water around. Those are all real things. Um, there was somebody giving away a massive Ziploc. That had two frozen chicken carcasses in it and there's a photo and they've been frozen in that bag. So in the photo it's just this gross Ziploc and all you see is like ice crystals. And then there's like a thing that's like make stock, you know, like our loss, your gain, whatever. Like crazy shit people say to where you're like, maybe I need

Jason Blitman: 27:19

What about

Catherine Newman: 27:20

But a lot of people, a lot of people wanted it. There's a lot of food and it makes you realize that people are even thriftier than I am, which is crazy to imagine. Um, and that there really is this like community that's really committed to an absence of waste. But sometimes, oh my God, it makes me laugh so hard. I mean, buy nothing is one thing. And also Facebook marketplace. This guy was selling last winter, a colored pencil drawing of elf, of like elf from the movie Elf, like the Will Ferrell character, a colored pencil drawing, but he'd started it. You know, when you're not an artist, so you started in the wrong part of the page, so it like dazzles off like, like the bottom of The

Jason Blitman: 28:12

doesn't quite fit.

Catherine Newman: 28:13

too soon. And, and he was selling it for$15 and I was like, I am buying that and giving it to Ben for Christmas. Ben's my son. And so I reached out to him and he was like, ah, sorry, no, I'm not gonna put it in the mail, but you could come get it. And he lived like an hour and 40 minutes from me and I was like, I'm not committed to the bit. I can't commit to that bit. It is too heavy a lift, but I left it. I was like, oh, excuse me, Mr. Particular with your elf drawing for$15. Like, can't put in the mail. It can't be put in the mail,

Jason Blitman: 28:48

I have posted things for free on Facebook Marketplace.

Catherine Newman: 28:52

have you rude The day

Jason Blitman: 28:54

I, I did it one time and I,

Catherine Newman: 28:57

all day waiting for people to come and

Jason Blitman: 28:58

well, not only that, but the amount of people that reach out to you. I got hundreds and I'm not kidding, hundreds of messages. So anytime I've ever done it since I like at least put$10 or whatever,

Catherine Newman: 29:11

but. even with that, you will spend your life waiting for people to come and they don't come, and they don't tell you they're not coming. I stopped posting on Facebook on the, um, free giveaway site because it was making me like. Filled with hatred of human

Jason Blitman: 29:30

Yeah, and you have

Catherine Newman: 29:32

where I was like, I was like, I a, is this turning a nightmare?

Jason Blitman: 29:43

please come pick it up. fact, I had this one girl come and, and get something, I think it was a bed or a mattress, and I was like, I have so many other things that people are, are being wishy-washy about or not coming. I was

Catherine Newman: 29:55

Yeah. do you want them?

Jason Blitman: 29:56

what they are? She was like, kind of, I'm furnishing a place. And I was like, come in, please take this step. And I was, I gave her a chair. I gave her a

Catherine Newman: 30:02

oh my God. you must have been so happy. She

Jason Blitman: 30:05

I

Catherine Newman: 30:05

have been psyched.

Jason Blitman: 30:07

she didn't pay for it. I was just like, take it,

Catherine Newman: 30:08

Yes, I, oh, I know. I understand how you would put a little, also, if you give it away, then there's a whole subset of people who won't even look at it. So if you charge$5 for it. It's like giving it away. But then this group that is like, I'm not the kind of person who gets a free thing will be like, but I will pay

Jason Blitman: 30:27

right.

Catherine Newman: 30:28

for a marble like armoire.

Jason Blitman: 30:31

for a very fancy, very not used mattress.

Catherine Newman: 30:37

Yeah. I, I love, I really love looking at it. And now, because I wrote about it, somebody sent me a link, there's an Instagram, um. That's like best of,

Jason Blitman: 30:51

Uh, yeah,

Catherine Newman: 30:53

is so bizarre

Jason Blitman: 30:55

like Zillow gone wild. Are you?

Catherine Newman: 30:59

writing down Zillow Gone Wild, which I have never looked

Jason Blitman: 31:02

Oh my God, Kathryn.

Catherine Newman: 31:05

I love stuff like this. I, this just makes me love the internet. I just love the internet for it. I, I am so easily entertained and that kind of thing. Zillow gone wild of like. People posting, like, I mean, I've seen excerpts, I'm sure from that, but someone will send me something that's like, look at every slide in this, of this house for sale. And then suddenly there'll be just like a guy like naked in a Barbie themed bedroom and you're like, oh my God,

Jason Blitman: 31:34

The internet. What a place

Catherine Newman: 31:36

what a

Jason Blitman: 31:37

can't live with. It can't live

Catherine Newman: 31:38

can. I know. And obviously, I mean, I appreciate you invoking that because. A lot of Rockies Trouble is the internet.

Jason Blitman: 31:48

Before we get to that.

Catherine Newman: 31:50

okay. No? Yes.

Jason Blitman: 31:51

something about thrifting and how no one loves thrifting more than you, or people you know, you see that people love thrifting, thrifting more than you by looking at Facebook marketplace. There's something that comes up in the book about, um, how charming it is as a parent to see what your kids like hold onto in adulthood. You know, things like getting the fancy organic olive oil that they had when they were growing up, or thrifting, or the nice sheets or, you know, whatever that is. Are there things like that for you that you remember that like your parents did, that you're like, oh, that has held on in my whole life.

Catherine Newman: 32:28

totally. I, I mean. Yes. And also just to be clear, like however, um, overbearing Rocky is where she's like, I'm sorry you eat lamb. Like we don't eat lamb as a family. My parents have been judgmental. There is nothing too small. I do different from them to judge. They will be like, what the fuck kind of orange juice is this? We get pic, like, what is that? And I'm like, I. I. got it at the Whole Foods like, I don't know, it's, and they're like gravely disappointed. You know, I have strayed from the family culture. We are a Tropicana family. Every brand of every single thing, unless you can convert them

Jason Blitman: 33:15

Ah,

Catherine Newman: 33:17

and some things you can where like, I was like, I know we like, you know, the whatever Land O'Lakes butter, but now I'm using like Kate's. You know, from Vermont, and now they use that. So those are your choices. Be judged to death or they're like, huh? I tried to get my parents to switch to the kindest sponge that has a scrubby thing on the back. A bridge too far

Jason Blitman: 33:45

Those are so helpful.

Catherine Newman: 33:47

no, can't, no. And they don't like to see it in my house. What is that?

Jason Blitman: 33:52

it's offensive to the family culture.

Catherine Newman: 33:55

the, family culture, we use a soft sponge.

Jason Blitman: 33:57

love that. The family culture.

Catherine Newman: 34:00

And you know it when you see it, right? But you don't know it when you're growing up because. It's invisible to you because it's, you think that's everybody. It's like when you first sleep over at someone's house and you're like, wait, what? Every minute you're like, what? Wait, what? You do this, you do that. You use this kind of tooth space, this, that, your house smells like this. Your dad does that. Like your mom comes out in a bathrobe. Like what? That mind blown of like other people's otherness and it is so hard to take. Like as a kid, it's really exciting. And then. feel like there's something about young adulthood. My kids are just in this moment of the, the, the small flex and it just looks like that, like the lamp thing was verbatim from our lives of just our son coming home and being like, Hey, guess what? I know you're gonna take this hard, but I kind of like lamb. And I was like, no, son of mine, you know, their father like left the room. I mean, it was so hilarious. Like we were like, Oh okay. And instead really what I feel like is like, oh my God, how have I created a scenario where someone needs to come out with a, to us as like a person who eats lamb? You could tell he'd like rehearsed it

Jason Blitman: 35:14

oh my God. Well, next time you're in town, there's a place that happens to make a very good lamb. And I'm not a big lamb person, but it's very good.

Catherine Newman: 35:24

You think it would convert

Jason Blitman: 35:25

I don't know about Convert, but you would enjoy that meal.

Catherine Newman: 35:28

Really?

Jason Blitman: 35:29

so.

Catherine Newman: 35:31

All right. All for that. I'll come back. No.

Jason Blitman: 35:33

just for that, just for the lamb, that scene reminded me of something that happened literally just a couple weeks ago with Franklin, my husband and his mom, because he recently became a vegetarian this past Thanksgiving, became a vegetarian, and it was talking about it with his mom, and she literally did that big VE Greek wedding thing where she said, even chicken.

Catherine Newman: 35:55

Oh my God. No chicken. Chicken is just no.

Jason Blitman: 36:03

we were all like, yes. And why did you just quote, basically quote, big factory Greek wedding? Like literally Frank's stepdad said, oh, I'll make lamb. It's like, yeah, that's exactly what just happened. That was so weird. Even chicken.

Catherine Newman: 36:19

Even chicken. Yes. Even

Jason Blitman: 36:20

Randy. Even chicken.

Catherine Newman: 36:23

Oh

Jason Blitman: 36:23

Um, speaking of, is there a difference between Spatchcocking and Butterflying?

Catherine Newman: 36:35

Well, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:36

Really?

Catherine Newman: 36:38

Yeah. Oh, maybe. No, I was gonna say that butterflying is the thing you do to lamb

Jason Blitman: 36:47

Oh.

Catherine Newman: 36:48

where you like a leg of lamb, you butterfly it, but it's really similar where you take the bone out and open it out.

Jason Blitman: 36:55

So maybe it's, maybe it's, uh,

Catherine Newman: 36:58

spatchcocking maybe, and Spatchcocking. You're not de-boning it all together. You're just taking out the backbone so you can flatten it.

Jason Blitman: 37:08

Oh, oh, and butterflying. It's, it's

Catherine Newman: 37:12

it ends up boneless.

Jason Blitman: 37:13

Interesting.

Catherine Newman: 37:14

and opened out like a book

Jason Blitman: 37:15

Yeah. See, I had a feeling I would learn something. This is why. I asked the question, speaking of is there a difference or what's the difference between slit and slot?

Catherine Newman: 37:28

I dunno, I thought about this having written about it. Um, both words make me a little uncomfortable and seem very like vagina. Um, yes, slit and slot

Jason Blitman: 37:44

so.

Catherine Newman: 37:45

a slot definitely suggests you're putting something into it.

Jason Blitman: 37:50

Mm-hmm.

Catherine Newman: 37:51

You wouldn't have a slot that nothing goes into. That's the premise of a slot. A coin is going

Jason Blitman: 37:57

I wonder is, is a slot like manmade or like a slot is, is intentional and a slit is like you're breaking something, right? You're like, slitting open. No.

Catherine Newman: 38:07

I don't think so. I think you could slit something fully. On purpose, but I'm also, I know seamstress terms, that's a sewing term. You would like cut a series of slits in a piece of fabric, but you wouldn't like then shove a quarter into one of them, like a slot. Something's going in there. A slit is not like that.

Jason Blitman: 38:31

No. Okay.

Catherine Newman: 38:34

Glad I

Jason Blitman: 38:35

Thank you.

Catherine Newman: 38:36

clear that up.

Jason Blitman: 38:39

I cut you off when you were going, you were about to go down an internet rabbit hole

Catherine Newman: 38:43

Oh yeah.

Jason Blitman: 38:45

and talking about Rocky and how the, the internet is sort of the thing that is challenging to her,

Catherine Newman: 38:51

Yeah. I mean, she has the thing that I have not coincidentally a feeling that way that a phone in your hand. Can be like a black hole that it can, I can surface from looking at my phone the way you come out of a movie during the day and you're like, oh, it's like still the world light out. The world is here. Uh, so she can be very, um. You know, it's like obviously a source of pleasure for her. She texts with her kids a lot and they send each other like funny things. Um, and she looks at recipes that, you know, as people do and then, and looks at buy nothing, whatever. And then it's also this place she turns to, you know, partly her patient portal is online. Um, and you and I, I'm sure could talk. At great length about the patient portal I know.

Jason Blitman: 40:06

and so that that, because it had such a huge presence in the book, I did take credit for it.

Catherine Newman: 40:13

Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes total sense that you would you know, it's just such a weird world. Like I, I'm an impatient person, so I love, on the one hand like the immediacy of a patient portal. Like, thank God you're not waiting for a doctor to call you like in three weeks when he thinks to, like, it's just gonna show up and you're gonna get the information. It's not gonna be digested for you. And then obviously the flip side of that is this weird immediacy as a lay person to what often is incredibly technical information. Um, so you have this access to it, but you don't really know what it means and no one is saying to you like, oh, it, you know what? I know it looks like X, Y, Z, but it's okay because you're just looking at numbers and a graph, or you're looking at. You know, something a pathologist has written without ever talking to or seeing you, and they're like, oh, I don't know. Looks like, you know, looks like she needs a lobotomy. And you're like, oh my God,

Jason Blitman: 41:19

Okay.

Catherine Newman: 41:22

I'll, I'll

Jason Blitman: 41:22

How long is the referral process?

Catherine Newman: 41:28

Yeah. So the internet, you know, for Rocky, the internet is that it's the. There's an accident in the book that she becomes obsessed with, and it's the police where she marinates in that obsession. It's like a guilty, it's like this guilty, obsessive, time consuming thing she does, which is, um, you know, this kid has died who her kids grew up knowing, not somebody close to them, but the proximity for her. Of like kids, young people die is so, it's so her the thing she can't look away from because she's so superstitious. Like she refuses to look away from it, but instead of not looking away from it, she becomes completely obsessed with it. Um, so she looks, she trolls through their social media feed. She figures out when this funeral is, she looks. Constantly for signs to see how this other mother, her parallel life, you know, there. But for the grace of God go, I mother, how is this person processing this unfathomable grief? Um, and she's doing it all online. Uh, and I just relate really intensely to that kind of obsessive behavior.

Jason Blitman: 42:51

You know, you putting that in the book and also just the amount that you talk about anxiety is part of why I think this book is so much more relatable than sandwich. Um, there is a, I think. The whole population goes through grief, um, and some semblance of anxiety. Uh, 50% of the population goes through menopause. and so. Feeling seen. We all have those obsessive rabbit holes online, regardless of what the circumstances are. But I think anytime a young person dies, everyone wants to either learn more about it or learn how it happened, or because there is that obsession of, can it happen to me,

Catherine Newman: 43:38

Yeah, and can I learn enough? So that I can be like, nah, that probably couldn't happen to me like that. I think you're so right. It's funny when you say that. Yeah. Just that I think that is so much what the book's about is, is Rocky being like, how much am I gonna lose? How's it gonna happen? Do I already know how it's gonna happen? Um, and I, I really feel that like. Can the, you know, yeah. Can you learn enough about something to be like, that couldn't happen to, to us and like usually Really? No. Or you're kidding yourself.

Jason Blitman: 44:20

Um, and I think really just seeing it on the page and not feeling alone in in our sort of. Anxious rabbit holes is important. It's great to remember that we are all sort of in this together.

Catherine Newman: 44:36

Oh, thanks. I really, really appreciate that.

Jason Blitman: 44:39

No, but seriously, like you, you're probably writing this in a vacuum and it feels like, I, I, I know you know that you're not in it alone, but it probably feels like you are, or Rocky might feel like she's in it alone. And, um, anyway, it was refreshing for me. Something I wanna put a pin in. In addition to that as a concept, the not feeling alone in, in our grief and anxiety. Um, I want to talk about a long-term marriage and learning more about each other'cause that is something else that comes up in the book. But before we do that, um. Sandwich was one of my favorite books of the year last year. I have two copies in my house. I have one in my office and one on the bookcase in our dining area. Um, I don't know why I don't need two copies of the book, but I want them.

Catherine Newman: 45:34

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 45:35

I was so excited to read rec and um, I. Didn't know what it was about. I don't read blurbs, I don't read anything, and I might be the only person that you talk to who lost a young person in his life to a train accident.

Catherine Newman: 45:56

Uh, sorry.

Jason Blitman: 46:00

Um, who was like a younger brother to me. We grew up together

Catherine Newman: 46:05

Jason.

Jason Blitman: 46:05

he was 19 and it. Was so cathartic for me to be a fly on the wall with this family that I love so much and laugh and feel not seen, but like there was a, there, there was comradery and, and it, it's been almost 20 years at this point, so, um. I guess like 15 something years. But so it's, it's thankfully I was able to read it and, and, and not grieve. Um, but it was, I imagine most people who pick it up statistically it's not, it's not a young person dying of cancer or getting in a car accident right there. It's, it is something that is sort of. Out of the realm of possibilities. Um, but that wasn't true for me, which is fascinating in its own way. It was a, uh, a nice reminder to me because this is how I have thought about it so much. Moving forward after that time, 15 years ago, it doesn't get worse. That was sort of the

Catherine Newman: 47:31

Uh,

Jason Blitman: 47:33

A 19-year-old getting hit by a train who you love dearly, who you're a pallbearer at their funeral, who you see their mother mourning, right? Like that was, it's so when you sort of think about. Other things in life, it really puts it in perspective. And I think I needed that reminder for me in my life in this moment right now. So I just wanted to share all of that with you.

Catherine Newman: 47:57

I am. Thank you for that. I mean, I think not to be like corny and gross and like opportunistic about silver lining possibilities, but I do think like those are the experiences that make us.

Jason Blitman: 48:13

I.

Catherine Newman: 48:14

Like empathetic, compassionate people. Like there is something about experiencing this, that full bodied kind of grief that makes you move through the world as a person who doesn't say like, oh, I can't imagine how you feel. It's like, oh yeah. Oh, I can imagine it. I have felt it. I am imagining it right now, like the way that puts you into a certain kind of presence with people. That is, that is a gift, even if it's a really hard one. One,

Jason Blitman: 48:50

Totally. And I think reading about it was a nice reminder of that.

Catherine Newman: 48:55

I'm so glad

Jason Blitman: 48:57

Um, so back to my pin of, of a long-term marriage. There's this moment where, you know, it's discussed that Rocky and her husband have been together for 35 years and there's still. Getting to know each other. And I think that that's such an important thing to talk about because when Franklin and I got married, we were given a piece of advice that we are going to grow and change as people and we need to learn how to grow and change with each other. Um, and we've, you know, we're together almost 12 years now and we're sort of realizing, oh, we are going to grow and change like separately, but we also need to like. Get on the same page and learn how to do this dance together and take these dance classes together.

Catherine Newman: 49:44

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 49:45

and I, I, I was watching Love Is Blind UK last night of course. And this couple that I'm obsessed with, one said to the other, you know, I hope this is who we are forever. And we're always making each other laugh. And we're always this way and we always look back and this is us. And I was like, no, no, you're gonna grow and change. You're not gonna be the same.

Catherine Newman: 50:05

yeah, yeah, I know. And I know it. And you hang on, or you decide that actually it's, you're constraining each other and you don't, you don't, hang on. It's, it's really a lot of, it takes so much nimbleness to stay in a long relationship. Like you, it's funny, you know, sandwich, I was just. Somebody just said to me at an event, I was at an event at a, at a library on two O at 2:00 PM this was two days ago on the Cape Library at 2:00 PM means everyone is gonna be over the age of 70. And this in fact was true. There were like 65, 70 and epi year olds, which is gonna be a lively situation, is all I can say. I look at that audience and I'm like. I am gonna get it. And I usually do, and I love it. And this woman said to me, and Michael is in the audience, Michael's my husband. This woman says to me, why is Rocky such a bitch to Nick? And Michael laughed out loud, which I fucking love him for so much. He is the best. He's such a good sport. And I was like, oh, part of Rocky's character arc. In Sandwich. It's a small character arc, like she learns you can buy sandwiches. Like that's part of it. There are very small things that happen. Some secrets are revealed and one of her, one of the things she needs to do, and obviously it's compressed into a week because a novel is, see Nick as a person separate from her. That is a, a. That is a thing the book forces her to do. So at the beginning, Nick is this like kind of irritating but very useful person, right? Both of those things are about what he is for Rocky, and she has to understand that he is actually this completely. Whole independent self from her, and that is very difficult and that like the way that secrets are revealed at the end of that book, that is her process of being like, oh, here's this person who has been useful to me and difficult for me, and in fact is not really about me. Like he's the separate person, not

Jason Blitman: 52:52

How long have you and Michael been together?

Catherine Newman: 52:54

35 years.

Jason Blitman: 52:57

I I, if you had to give someone a piece of advice, what would it be?

Catherine Newman: 53:01

God. I mean, I really feel, this is so strange. I, because I'm not gonna say any of the things I'm really bad at, like, like compromising, which I think is very important and I'm not great at, I think, um. Spending time together, doing fun stuff, weirdly, I think is so important. And it's like kind of the thing that I think drops away. And I don't mean having sex because there's a lot of pressure on couples to have sex even during difficult times in a life. And that is sometimes possible, sometimes not possible. And like sex is an important part of a relationship, whatever, if it is. But I just mean fun stuff. That's like common shared interests where you make time to do fun stuff together, because otherwise it's like you're either running a small and dull business or you're like parents together if you have kids, which is just its own thing. I don't know where that thing, where like you would like leave the house to like do something fun with friends, but like, I just think it's really important to do fun stuff together. Like actually fun things, things that you would be like, that sounds fun. Like, like where the kids will text us, you know, we have a family group chat, obviously as families do. And the kids will be like, what'd you guys do this weekend? And, and I'll be like, oh, dad and I played tennis, and then we blah, blah, blah. And the kids will write. That sounds fun. And I think, yeah, it was really fun.

Jason Blitman: 54:48

Dad and I played tennis and now I'm icing my knee.

Catherine Newman: 54:52

Yeah, I know, right? I'm icing my knee. I got like boned on the kitchen island, whatever. I don't cheer all of it. Some of it's fun in a private way, but I don't know. Just that, I guess what would you, 12 years, I mean, grow and change is your advice, which is really

Jason Blitman: 55:11

yeah.

Catherine Newman: 55:12

I'll give each other the

Jason Blitman: 55:13

Well, and what's so interesting, and I think really the adapting that advice is, um, don't learn the dance steps separately. Learn, learn, take a class together. You're gonna be, you're gonna do them differently, but you'll at least learn the same dance,

Catherine Newman: 55:35

I really like that. I mean, it's a great metaphor because it also lends itself to other metaphors of like, you won't have to look for someone who knows the dance.

Jason Blitman: 55:46

Totally. And it's like, and listen, sure. Sometimes you'll step on someone's foot and sometimes they're gonna move the wrong way, but like at the end of the day, it's at least the same song that you're dancing to, you know? But if you're taking different classes to come to like, so that, that. Has been a really useful metaphor for me as we're sort of, you know, going on more years, um, but also just like not being afraid to change and not being afraid to listen and be patient and, um, yeah, I don't know. It's hard. Self-reflection is hard. in the book, Rocky is writing a pitch, uh, as for a writing project, um, for something to find meaning in small moments. Is there anything that's happened recently that's a small moment that you have found meaning in?

Catherine Newman: 56:32

Oh my God. I mean, always truly That is my mo. I really do.

Jason Blitman: 56:42

the MO in moments.

Catherine Newman: 56:50

Oh my that's so good. That's really good.

Jason Blitman: 56:59

home moments.

Catherine Newman: 57:00

oh, home moments. Home moments. I know it's better than like memo moments. Um, I mean, truly like I. I have this, Michael was just making fun of me. We were having dinner with some people we don't know very well last night. And somehow, somehow we got to talking about this habit I have where like, you know, I have like horrible insomnia and weirdly, sometimes it's. A time that I really reflect on how lucky I am because I'm comfortable and I'm essentially safe in this moment. And I have this person I love in bed and usually the cats are there and, and um, and I just like lie there and I'm like, oh my God, I'm so lucky. But then instead of just lying there feeling that I say out loud, don't you feel so cozy and lucky, I say to a sleeping person. And he was telling these people this and, and it was so hilarious to me. And also I was like, okay, mental note. And he was like, yeah. And I'm like, I totally do. And like, let's talk about that in the morning. I was like, that is so fair because like, I think Michael doesn't feel that lucky to sleep with a person who's like chit chatty at literally three 30 in the morning.

Jason Blitman: 58:36

But you

Catherine Newman: 58:37

Don't you feel so

Jason Blitman: 58:39

But you're not burping,

Catherine Newman: 58:41

Never. Boom, full circle. We did it one

Jason Blitman: 58:45

I adore you so much. Everyone, go get your copy of Rec Out now, wherever you get your books. Rachel Ranya Katz, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Rachel Runya Katz: 59:01

Thank you.

Jason Blitman: 59:03

And my fabulous guest, gay reader today of course I use the term gay as fluidly and flexibly as 1985. Gay man was

Rachel Runya Katz: 59:15

I am honored to be included in the umbrella.

Jason Blitman: 59:18

Yes, I, for me, it is an umbrella term, we're, all, we're all family together. I'm obsessed with your beautifully queer bookshelf behind you.

Rachel Runya Katz: 59:28

Oh, thank you. Yeah I did a rainbow. If you read enough romance and then also like the lit thick I have is mostly more like the upmarket, like they try to be colorful, you get to do this.

Jason Blitman: 59:39

It's. It is a testament to what a reader you are.

Rachel Runya Katz: 59:45

I am a big reader. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 59:47

And this is why I love doing this series, because I love hearing what other people are reading. I've only somewhat recently realized that I have adult A DHD, and when people have bookshelves behind them. It is on fire because I'm like, okay, I see chain gang, all stars. I see. What is that? A Zadie Smith. I see. I'm like, oh,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:00:11

my gosh. Should I try to blur it? Is it gonna be, is it

Jason Blitman: 1:00:14

No. We're fine. I just, I'm like obsessed with looking and seeing what you have, and I want to, ask about them. I can only guess that one of those oranges is homegoing. I, I'm just, anyway, that's all I got. Rachel, what are you reading?

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:00:28

I would say so the most recent things I've read and like really loved within romance that are already out that you can read are The View was Exhausting by McKayla Clements and Angel Datta. That one is, so it's written by a married couple. The, every time I like see that a married couple co-writes books, I'm just like, literally how I feel like sometimes I wanna die when I'm writing my own book. I'm like, would I feel like I wanna kill you? If it was with my partner? Yeah, I'm like. I don't know. So huge props to those two. And they've also wr written a horror together that I'll need to read. I haven't yet, but I was obsessed with it. It was a celebrity romance with a in British Indian, actress who has, she's made it in Hollywood. So she like primarily I think lives in the us but it's following her like jet setting all around with her model. Fake boyfriend who she has she struck up a friendship by them early in both of their careers, like needing to pretend to date, to, to save their reputations. And of course, like it turns out they fall in love. But it just has such a wonderfully like lush setting while also feeling incredibly cynical and everybody's an asshole to each other at different points in a way. I just love, like I ate it up. Like one of my good friends Ava Wilder wrote how to Fake It in Hollywood, which was like maybe my, like one of my reigning. Queens of celebrity romance, and this, I think, has a really similar sensibility. And so I really enjoyed it. And then I also, I would say my, I think probably,

Jason Blitman: 1:02:04

I have a back, I have a follow up question. What is it about the cynical assholes

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:02:10

Oh.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:11

that excites you?

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:02:12

I think especially if you're gonna be in a backdrop of something like so heavily draped in like luxury that is it's, it's, they're in San Tr pe like they're in Paris, like the yachts, they're diving off the back of yachts, like the, all of that. I think if I wanna pretend that all these people are like. There's no cost to that. I think I would not enjoy reading it. I think I am somewhat of a cynical optimist or an optimistic cynic. I don't know the right way to put it, but I tend to do better when there's something I can really bite into. I like my character Aldente, I don't want it to feel like it's just like mushy goodness. And I get why people are drawn to that, but for me, like the happy ever after is much more satisfying if people are like fuck ups in different ways along the way.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:02

It's so funny that you use the word like cynical optimist, because I call myself a realistic optimist, and I think that I would argue that that's maybe the

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:03:14

That's probably the same thing. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:16

I think as humans we're just cynical or like real life is can be so hard that like it just beats you up a little bit. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for, so there's, there is that in terms of reality, there's the juxtaposition of the sort of opulence and the behavior and self-awareness, I totally get that.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:03:37

Yeah, I really loved it.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:39

okay. But now you can carry on.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:03:41

Yeah. Sorry. The other one, similar theme. I think that everybody was an asshole in a way. I really liked girl Next Door by Rachel Meredith. I think it's my favorite debut I read this year. I read it for a blurb. And the premise is this like main character mc, she is like a freelance journalist for something that feels like. Vice vibes I don't know. It's, yeah. And they do some pop culture stuff, but they like want to have a Gotcha. And there's this new SIC romance that has been a runaway bestseller. Everybody's obsessed with it. And the author is like a total recl. Used a pen name. I'm so sorry. For my cat. She is, yeah. She, the author like used a pen name and hasn't shown her face anywhere. And her Mc, the main character, her best friend also is like an editor at this place. And he reads the book and is dude, this is written by your next door neighbor about you. I know who it's, I know it's about you. Like the initials are all the same and I know what happened senior year of high school, all this, and so Mc has to go back to her hometown to try to figure out if she can like, get this scoop on, on Nora, the neighbor who like totally wrote this bestselling s romance about her. And I loved it. So much. She has a complicated relationship with her brother. They're like all mean to each other'cause they're all dealing with their own stuff in a way that I just like really like I also think the chutzpah of the author to have there be a little bit of a meta conversation about the ways in which readers can be particularly invasive to queer authors. Like I'm I love that. I love that she had that in there. Oh my God, I was obsessed with that book.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:21

Can you unpack that a little bit?

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:05:23

Oh

Jason Blitman: 1:05:23

The invasiveness?

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:05:25

yeah, so I think I actually, at one point in time, I'm pretty sure Alexandria Belile posted a story that I, I'm probably gonna misquote, I'm not gonna get the exact wording right, but I really appreciated it was that she was saying like, so she wrote written in the Stars, which is like one of the earlier trad, pubbed, sic romance, in the illustrated color cover area. Or era, excuse me. And she said something like, she recognizes that for some people who are queer readers, they feel as though like their dating pools are small. And especially if you're in a place that isn't very queer or isn't very open and can like confuse their. The authors as like part of their dating pool, like that was like a part of how she had experienced it. So there was an obsession there. I also think that just like I, I don't think racial Meredith got all so deep into the nitty gritty, but like my experience of it is when you're writing from like a marginalized background, I think for similar reasons to what Alexandria was saying, it's people are looking like they're so desperate for this kind of representation. Understandably. But then that can create like expectations that aren't really possible. If you have

Jason Blitman: 1:06:41

of them personally.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:06:42

Yes of them personally like you, you can expect an author to be perfect in ways that no human is. You can expect that an author is like showing all of their opinions via their characters, which is not like, the fact that it's in a book does not mean you believe it or condone it. You also might have written the book a long time ago, like there's a lot of things there and I think. If you are like starved of representation and like you finally get a hand on your hands on my, say my debut, which is has a black Jewish bisexual woman and you read it and you just don't relate to her very much. Your reaction might be like, this is bad. And I am, I have been wronged or slighted by this author for not. Having the, this character be literally me, if that makes sense. Or have my like literal experiences and I think it's a completely understandable feeling, but gets misplaced onto authors because the problem is not that I didn't write your experience. I am, I'm not you. It's a fictional character. It's not even totally my experience. The problem is that the landscape isn't like rich enough in these marginalized voices for you to find something that more closely mirrors your experience. But then as a queer author or whatever, like intersectional marginalizations you may be writing from the brunt of that gets put onto you sometimes by readers. And I've definitely had like inappropriate or invasive dms. S.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:08

That's unfortunately not surprising, and there's something, so it's. It's not dissimilar from, I think like talk show hosts and folks who are on TV shows because those faces are in your home regularly. There is this parasocial relationship that the audiences feel like they have with those people versus a movie star, right? Where you need to leave your house to go see them. I feel like with a lot of authors. In present day. In present day. What a weird way to say it. Because of social media, because you're like consuming the content of these authors. They're maybe replying to dms, you're reading their words. Bed. It's such an intimate experience that they probably feel like they know you, like they own the story, like it's a piece of them, like it supported them through a difficult time, right? So there is this like weird force level of intimacy too that's also not real.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:09:12

Yeah. Yeah. These I don't know y'all. Y'all don't know me. That's okay. But I do think it is yeah, I do think it just creates this sort of tension that I think exists for all authors and particularly of romance. Because I think people can feel like there's something more intimate there. And there's probably like layers of misogyny too, of people have a, an assumption that like you've written about yourself as opposed to like fiction. But I do think that it, yeah, it just heightened for like often heightened for queer authors. And I'm not like, I know queer authors who've had like much more intense experiences than I have. So yeah, I, I just I felt, that, felt like it rang really true to me in that

Jason Blitman: 1:09:51

In that book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I obviously have heard of things like this happening. I've never heard it presented in that way before or had a space to chat about it a little bit more. So thank you for unpacking that more for me. When I heard about, isn't it Obvious I needed it yesterday? So would you tell the people what your elevator pitch is?

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:10:14

Yeah, so I had not seen, you've got mail when I wrote this, but people use, use, you've got mail as like a shorthand for the like hidden identity in love over emails

Jason Blitman: 1:10:25

A hundred percent yes. Yes,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:10:26

when we say it's, you've got mail like that, and I love a story like that. So that's the absolutely the vibe. So it is that, it's between a podcast. Yael and her producer. And so her podcast persona is named Elle, and she hires this pro producer and she gets his professional resume. And so his name is Kevin there, and they're talking there. They fall in love in that way. At the same time, Yael in real life gets in an argument with her roommate. Charlie's one night stand who sneaks out of her window, and his name is Ravi. What she doesn't know is that Ravi's. It actually his legal middle name. And he has always gone by that. It's explained why later. But Kevin was on his resume and then he doesn't know her name because it's a pseudonym and she is a high school librarian who runs a queer book club and he volunteers at that book club. So that's why they have to keep seeing each other in person and then online obviously because of their professional relationship.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:21

Yeah. And as always, chaos ensues because that's of course what happens. But you're right, it is not, you've got, mail is a placeholder for. Tropes for a sort of story. You've got mail in and of itself is adapted from another movie called The Shop Around the Corner, which is adapted from a Turkish short story.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:11:46

And there's also like Cyrano before that.

Jason Blitman: 1:11:48

Exactly there's so

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:11:50

but I think it's, honestly, it's just like easier to say, like you've communicated the vibe when

Jason Blitman: 1:11:54

Exactly. And I and for me, my point really is that I love that kind of story

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:12:00

Yes. For me, my, you've got mail is a Cinderella story with Hillary

Jason Blitman: 1:12:05

yes,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:12:05

Michael Murray. That's my'cause in my head that's what Epistolary Romance is. You know what I mean?

Jason Blitman: 1:12:11

a hundred percent right. You can literally say it's the same

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:12:15

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:12:15

right?'cause it's it's. Similar styles and tropes how you said you hadn't seen, you've got mail when you started writing this, have you since

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:12:24

I have. Yeah, I've watched it now. I did not like it, but that's okay. I'm allowed to, I think it's very charming. And like I'm a huge, when Harry met Sally fan so I actually really like Nora Fran's like point of view. I like her directorial eye, all of that. I think it's just, I watched it. This summer. So I have like in my head, we're like in a vibe where billionaires are like ruining our lives and I just couldn't really get there with the male protagonist in it. Like he just doesn't work for me. And I thought that Meg Ryan was delightful. And I wanted the world for her and he was an evil rich man

Jason Blitman: 1:13:05

Yeah. No

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:13:06

in the movie.

Jason Blitman: 1:13:06

it's so interesting thinking about context and how much context matters in art and all kinds of art. I had a really terrific conversation with the author of Bianca Bos, she's also a journalist and wrote a book about the art world. It's nonfiction, and she was saying that a painting in. An art gallery on a white wall with nothing else around it. You have expectations. And because of the context, you can have the exact same painting in a pile at a thrift store, and you have different sort of expectations for that, right? And and yet it could still either be worth a bajillion dollars or$6 and it doesn't matter. I don't know that we like look at movies as time capsules because they like literally capture wardrobe and a vibe and a mood. And so it's easier to quote unquote, forgive something like that.'cause you're like, oh, this is clearly in the nineties. But you still are allowed to contextualize it with

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:14:15

yeah, I

Jason Blitman: 1:14:16

I just find it very interesting.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:14:17

Yeah, it's just hard. It's, I think it's hard to get into like right now, and I'm sure if I had watched it at a very different period of time, my experience of it would've been totally different. But yeah, so

Jason Blitman: 1:14:28

It's,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:14:28

was afraid to watch it actually for that reason. I was worried I wouldn't like it and then I would have to lie in interviews, but then I'm like, I'm not a very good liar, so I just have to be like, yep, I did it like that.

Jason Blitman: 1:14:38

find it more interesting that you didn't, and I, it's, it. As a person who loves the movie, to watch it now and to understand why it doesn't work and why it's not problematic. Like obviously it is problematic, but like why it is okay for me to not be cool with it today and still love it, right? Like there to hold both things.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:15:01

I'm very against moralizing yourself based on the media you can consume. Obviously there's like lines pest, which if you're out here doing like mind comp, I'm not gonna be like, that's fine. But I think that the fact that it has in my opinion, some not great class politics and honestly, gender politics by virtue of like how much you're supposed to forgive this man. Like that doesn't mean like anybody's bad for watching it, nor does it even necessarily mean it's a bad movie. But yeah, I'd like I just, it does and it work for me and consuming it

Jason Blitman: 1:15:33

and I think that's my point. Like I find it actually so interesting to talk about because it's cool that I loved it. And it's also cool that contextually right now I'm, I can also not like And that's just so it's and both. Yeah. And I find that really interesting. And what is,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:15:51

oh, sorry.

Jason Blitman: 1:15:51

no, go ahead.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:15:52

I say I kinda feel that way about She's the man, which is like one of my favorite like two thousands teen rom-coms. Because it's like, there's actually a bit about it in my debut, but I think like I was attached to it in such a specific way. And actually I think reading or reading it, watching it as a kid, I think my experience of it was like maybe queer. There's this guy who like falls in love with somebody who's a girl and a guy at the same. Like back and forth and I don't know, I don't think you can realistically read it as he like, had no possible feelings for Viola Sebastian.'cause otherwise it's like you've met Viola like twice. There's that, and there's like this aspect of like gender fluidity and all that. But also it is like a very straight and transphobic movie. Like it is all of these things. And like I, I think that's a really fun one to think about

Jason Blitman: 1:16:39

Yeah. And it's again, like a sort of further layer, and this is so weird that we're talking about, she's the man, I literally was talking about it last week. But it's an adaptation of 12th Night by

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:16:49

Yes. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:16:50

So it, there's like that added complicated layer of the history of it. But I was in conversation with Mona Awad last week who's was talking about her next project being. A pseudo adaptation of 12th Night and someone mentioned she's the man,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:17:07

would love to read

Jason Blitman: 1:17:09

and I know I'm I'm already intrigued. But she's writing like a 12th night love story which is fascinating. But

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:17:16

amazing. I'm so excited.

Jason Blitman: 1:17:18

but I was just, but like she's, the man came up and she was like, oh, I should watch that. And I was like, no, you should not watch that.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:17:25

Yeah, after you're done, you can watch it after you're done and then go on interviews like this one and have to be like, yeah, I didn't like that movie. That's my advice. This is how you be an author, actually.

Jason Blitman: 1:17:37

so funny. I, what I was gonna say is that what is so fun about, isn't it obvious, is it this is like such a weird thing to say, but like it. Recontextualizes, my love of the tropes and concepts of you've got male in a contemporary and queer and exciting way, and allowed me to fall in love with a, with the quote unquote same story in a brand new way. And that's really

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:18:10

Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate

Jason Blitman: 1:18:12

cool. Yeah. So everybody go get your copy of, isn't It Obvious by Rachel Ranya Katz. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:18:21

Yeah, it was a pleasure.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:23

What because everyone loves to hear author lore. What was, you said you, you pushed through so many books or read through so many books as a kid, that's how you ended up at YA Romance. What was like that first book that you remember reading pre romance that you really fell in love with?

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:18:42

The Phantom to Booth, I was obsessed with that, and I would reread it like anytime I got sick, I would reread that for so long. I love that book. I actually ended up writing my college like admissions application essay about it.

Jason Blitman: 1:18:56

Th this is the second time the Phantom Tool Booth has come up like in a few weeks as a important and transformative book, and I have not read it and I need to,

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:19:05

Oh, you should. It's wonderful. It's really wonderful.

Jason Blitman: 1:19:08

I can't wait. Again, thank you for being here. Congrats on the book and have a great rest of your day.

Rachel Runya Katz: 1:19:13

Thank you. You too.

1:19:14

Catherine, Rachel, thank you so much for being here. Everyone again, go get your copies of Rec and isn't it Obvious out now wherever you get your books, and I'll see you next week. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Bye.