0:04

Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host Jason Litman, and I am so tired after a terrific weekend at the Texas Book Festival. I was in conversation just this past Sunday with former gays reading guest, Asia Gable, whose book just came out. Last week and whose last week's guest on case reading. And Austin Taylor, whose book notes on Infinity came out a few months ago. Um, the three of us were in conversation yesterday in the basement of the Texas State Capitol, which was weird and amazing. If you have never been to a book festival before, I highly recommend they are so special and really cool and a great way to connect with authors that you love and meet fellow bookish people. Uh, shout out to the little gay shop in Austin, Texas. They hosted a really lovely fun little gathering for queer people and queer authors, and it's just so important to support local queer businesses these days and little indie businesses. So check them out. They're over on Instagram and they're super cool. Everyone who works there is fantastic. And all the authors who, who came out to hang out with all the people, it was just really great. Anyway, supporting local, queer people, supporting local queer businesses, supporting authors. Is all important and yeah, festivals are really fun. I was at the same hotel with former Gaze reading guests, Alejandro Ella and Annie Hartnett and Jemima Way, and they are all just terrific and I love all of their books so much. So just a another shout out to them and their books, if you haven't read them yet they are. Middle Spoon and the Road to Tender Hearts and the original daughter all respectively. Um, I got to see Lucas Schaeffer, who of course just won the Kirk Prize for his book The Slip. And Daria Lavelle, who is a, was a terrific gaze reading guest who's debut novel Aftertaste came out this year. Uh, anyway, it was just, it was really great and super special and yeah, that was that's that in regards to that. Anyway, that's why I'm so tired. But. Welcome to Gay's Reading. For those of you who have never been here before, and if you are coming back, welcome back and. What is there to share? Okay. It is the November 11th. You have a couple more days to check out this month's all store booklet pick, which is I am You by Victoria Riddell. You could check out the link in the bio of the Instagram and in the show notes to go get a copy of that book through the all store book club. And we will be announcing the December booklet pick on the 15th of November. Keep an eye out for that. And the best place of course to learn about all these things is on Instagram. So we are over at Gay's reading on Instagram. We're on YouTube. We are all over the place for the most part. There's merch and there's a substack, and. Yeah, it's been really great. You know, speaking of book festivals, I am so excited to be producing one in Palm Springs at the end of March. So March 27th through the 29th is the Palm Springs Book Festival. You could learn more about that@psbookfest.org. That'll be a super fun and exciting weekend as well in Palm Springs if you're looking for a little getaway. Um. Today I have the delightful Grande O'Hare on the show talking to me about her new book Thirst Trap, and my guest gay reader today is Brian Schaefer, whose book Town and Country I feel like has been all over the place. So both of their bios can be found in the show notes. They're both delightful humans and I, I can't believe it's already practically mid-November Thanksgiving is, is right behind us or is Right is just ahead of us and I can't believe it. And this is my sort of jet lag, rambling brain going on. And, uh, I appreciate all of you for putting up with me. And now please sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversations with Grana O'Hare and Brian Schafer. I.

Jason Blitman: 4:39

Grande O'Hare, welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm so happy to have

Gráinne O'Hare: 4:42

Thank you for having me.

Jason Blitman: 4:44

here to talk about your book, thirst Trap, this cover that I'm obsessed with.

Gráinne O'Hare: 4:49

Major.

Jason Blitman: 4:50

So for the people, what is your elevator pitch for the book?

Gráinne O'Hare: 4:55

So Thirst Trap is set in Belfast. It's about three friends who all live together and have been best friends for a long time. It's set a year after the death of their fourth friend and fourth housemate Lydia. And a year on, they're all struggling in different ways to process their loss and grow up. They're all either just about turning or about to turn. 30 at the start of the novel. So yeah, it's about growing up, dealing with grief, dealing with life, not very well often.

Jason Blitman: 5:31

I, it's, it was like distressing reading the book simply because I was like, oh, this isn't about 23 year olds, it's about, 30 year olds. And that's the stuff I was going through both when I was 23 and when I was about to turn 30.

Gráinne O'Hare: 5:51

Yeah, I think I get that as well. Like people say, oh, it's great to see like a coming of age novel that's happening when the characters are at this age, and I am. And people, when people tell me they related to it, I'm like. Oh, that's lovely to hear. Slash I'm sorry because I know what that's so yeah.

Jason Blitman: 6:13

Yeah, and you, we learn so much about these characters in the first chapter alone. First of all, it's giving this almost contemporary young, younger version of First Wives Club.

Gráinne O'Hare: 6:28

Oh, I've never had that comparison before, actually, but I'm very into it. Especially because I am like feeling very, a lot of feelings about Diane Keaton at the minute,

Jason Blitman: 6:38

yes, of course. But it's the three friends coming together. After the loss of a fourth, and obviously it's very different, but that is that the four friends in First Wives Club, it's the, when the fourth dies, later when Stocker Channing dies in the first five minutes of the movie. That's when the three other women come together. And so there's like a little, it feels like an homage to that movie and with some other nineties kid references in the book. I was like, oh, I think this will. Go over well.

Gráinne O'Hare: 7:10

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I I wanted to do enough references that did situate it in a time, but hopefully not so many that were gonna age in a certain way, like they wouldn't seem relevant in a few years. Because I think that's something I'm writing at the minute and I'm like making references to things on social media, but trying not to do it very often because I'm like. That could, that it's, there may flies. They've got such a short kind of self life. Whereas I feel like maybe nineties and naughty references stuck a bit better because there's not that kind of transience you get with people in five years gonna be going, what's very demure, very mindful. What does that mean? Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 7:52

Yeah, it's less like the meme culture and more like moments of culture. Or I feel like someone, someone said something, someone, a friend of mine years ago said, is this a movement or is this a moment about, I don't remember what, but that's what makes I, I feel like that's what you're talking about. Is it a moment or is it something bigger than that will be longer standing anyway. I have to know, have you ever needed to accommodate a plant at a bar?

Gráinne O'Hare: 8:23

I haven't, but I think that's because I don't go out very much anymore. But I feel like it was the kind of thing I was at the, feeling slightly curmudgeonly at the nightclub rather than, having a great time and at the sort of age where everyone I know is owning and mothering plants. So yeah, I feel like it mashed both of those phases of life together for me.

Jason Blitman: 8:51

I feel like I would be the friend who said, sorry, I can't go out. I have to water my cactus.

Gráinne O'Hare: 8:58

Yeah, I'm like, I'm not very good at maintaining plants. I am unfortunately, a notorious serial killer of succulents. I've let so many die and I dunno how it's happened. I've got one that's just about alive on my window sill, but yeah, not very good with plants. Fingers crossed for it.

Jason Blitman: 9:19

So the cactus, the plant at the beginning of the book, it's described as thriving on neglect. Do you thrive on neglect?

Gráinne O'Hare: 9:27

I think I thrive on, not neglect, but definitely being left alone. I don't think I would've been able to write this novel if I hadn't had. People leave me alone to get on with it. So yeah, I think I do. I do like my own space, I'll be honest. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 9:48

So this fir this, the book opens it is this great night out for them. This, them being the group of friends. What does a great night out look for you? Or what did a great night out look for you when you were of the mind of going out?

Gráinne O'Hare: 10:01

I think for me the best. Big nights out, were always the ones that weren't planned in advance. I think that's the I know a lot of people nowadays who will be like, oh, if we're gonna do this or if we're gonna go to this place, or if there's an idea that we might wanna go to this place, then I'm gonna have to get a babysitter, or I'm gonna have to take the day off work afterwards, or I'm gonna have to make sure I have no plans the day afterwards and. I, I think if there was a notion that a night was gonna be a big night I would feel quite panicked. Point it beforehand. So I think the best ones were always. The most spontaneous where it's oh yeah, we're just meeting for like a catch up over a couple of glasses of wine and then it's four in the morning and you're clutching each other's hands and saying, I think this dream really is possible for you. I don't know why you put yourself down so much. So yeah, I do think definitely spontaneity is. Where it's best to catch me. I think planned nights give me the heebie-jeebies.

Jason Blitman: 11:06

I totally agree with that, and don't even think I realized it. I feel like I'm just always tired, but if someone said, let's go to dinner and have a very simple, casual dinner, but then next thing I knew I was out all night. I could like maybe rally, but it's the putting clothes on in the first place that I have a hard time with.

Gráinne O'Hare: 11:26

Yeah. And then I think it's because maybe because a lot of people, I know you don't, it's difficult to tell in advance like what mood they're gonna be in, have they. Got the kids babysat, have they, got not much to do the next day? Are they gonna want to do that? And if you go into it with the mindset of we're gonna be up until sunrise then, and then they put their coats on after. Two, two and a half hours and go, yeah oh yawn, I'd better get home. I'm not feeling too energetic tonight. Then you're just like, oh, I put on a bra for this. Really? So yeah,

Jason Blitman: 12:05

Oh my God, that's so funny. there's a character who, I promise I'll stop just talking about the first eight pages of the book, but like I said a second ago, there's so much that happens at the very beginning. You learn so much about each of these characters and in turn, I felt like I was also getting a glimpse into you and your life, but there's a character who. Says that it is out of character for her to leave the bar when the Abba mega mix is playing. Is that true for you? Were you the one on the dance floor being the dancing queen?

Gráinne O'Hare: 12:34

Definitely for abba, I think there's always I'm always gutted because I, there's a lot of very specific songs that I will want to dance to then if I've missed it. I'm just like, oh, I feel like I've not hit all the milestones of the night. I think I, one of my friends, one of my friends got married recently and had their wedding reception in a museum. They'd hired out for the night, which was very cool, and they asked everyone who is attending the wedding to make a suggestion for the playlist because they set in the speeches. If you think the music's crap, it's your own fault. So I suggested Rasputin by Boney M and and I, because we was in a museum and I was having a great time wandering around taxidermied animals at night, it was just amazing. But the dance floor was in a portrait gallery that was not. Audible from the part of the museum I was in, and so I missed it. And I'm gutted.

Jason Blitman: 13:40

Oh no. Who would've thought?

Gráinne O'Hare: 13:44

it was a great wedding though. Great venue.

Jason Blitman: 13:47

That does sound very cool. Okay. I'm very curious, oh wait, I need to go back to something you said how a night could end up where it's four o'clock in the morning and you're holding your friend's hand and you're talking about the, dreams being something you could fulfill. Have you ever had one of those nights? What is something do have, did you have like a spark of inspiration at one of those 4:00 AM moments?

Gráinne O'Hare: 14:09

I don't know. I think. I think the best time is out when everyone's still euphoric and blissful before people start getting slightly nihilistic. Because I think I've had a few of those and it was like, and you've made the choice oh no, I wanna keep going. Wanna stay up later. And then the tone just takes a very somber turn and you're like, yeah, I should have got a taxi home, shouldn't I?

Jason Blitman: 14:34

Yeah, but I think for me I look back on some of those nights and I'm just like, I don't know that I would be the person that I am today without the. Regret.

Gráinne O'Hare: 14:48

Yeah, I agree. I think, yeah, I think it is that kind of thing of like almost trying to pull yourself out of. The out of the regret by thinking about the story, you're gonna tell about it afterwards and the way you're gonna repackage it over your next night out and say, oh, would you remember that time when when we said we were gonna do a run the next day or when we said we were gonna do, go. See swimming the next day or when we said we were gonna start a podcast together, which I've done quite a few times recently with one particular friend. Every time we've had a couple of wines together, it's like, we need to get on a Zoom and talk about that podcast we're gonna do. But yeah, I think it is. Yeah. Amidst the regret. It's imagining yourself on the

Jason Blitman: 15:38

come it hasn't come to be

Gráinne O'Hare: 15:39

I really should. I feel like I, I hate the sound of my own voice, so apologies for that, but I think I, yeah it's getting the time together and getting an idea that isn't just two friends sort of chatting shit, which I think a lot of podcasts are, but yeah.

Jason Blitman: 15:59

Yeah, I understand. Yeah, the repackaging of the night is so funny though. You are the one who just brought up having to perhaps talked about going for a run the next morning. Girl, there is so much running in this book.

Gráinne O'Hare: 16:14

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 16:15

Where did, are you a runner? Where the hell did that come

Gráinne O'Hare: 16:18

uh, My sister's a really big runner. She's very competitive and does marathons and all that sort of thing. I have. Run. I intend to, again, I am, I do not currently identify

Jason Blitman: 16:31

To get the bus.

Gráinne O'Hare: 16:33

But yeah, no, I I think it was just I did want that kind of as a, as an activity for Maggie, the character who gets into running, but I didn't want it to be magically like her. Being amazing at it straight away. I was like, this needs to be a very woman age 30 who has just an ongoing hangover trying to inject some kind of health into her life and brain. And yeah, that was where that came into it.

Jason Blitman: 17:05

Yeah, that's fair. I feel like I've always said I, I will only run to something or away from something I don't wanna run like just for fun.

Gráinne O'Hare: 17:16

Yeah. No, I think I, whenever I did occasionally run, I enjoyed the feeling of having run when it was over, but never ever the feeling of actually running. I be like, people would talk about, oh, once you push through the wall and you get to this sort of high, and I was like, no, I don't think that's not a high I want to experience. It is, but I don't think it's gonna happen. So

Jason Blitman: 17:41

No. No, I feel that I'm either late or in danger.

Gráinne O'Hare: 17:46

that's amazing. I'm gonna use that.

Jason Blitman: 17:48

It's true. Okay. I have to know from your mouth, what is the lesbian rule?

Gráinne O'Hare: 17:55

Oh, I can't remember how I stumbled upon the lesbian rule, which was some sort of like ancient tool and then I was like this in a moment of when. Maggie, the character who brings it up is she's on MDMA and she's drunk and the feeling of just wanting to melt into this woman that she's really into and like almost wanting to like climb inside her because she's just, I think because that relationship with Kate or Situationship Kate is so distant and Maggie. Then just wants to latch onto her in that way. Yeah, I can't remember how I stumbled across that piece of information. Probably in some sort of Wikipedia

Jason Blitman: 18:39

you

Gráinne O'Hare: 18:39

hole. I think it's a sort of, I'm struggling to describe it now. It's like a, I can't even remember what it's used for night. It's it's like a curved rod or something. Yeah, which is ironic for lesbians, but,

Jason Blitman: 18:55

That's so funny. I also, thi this book made me realize how many D words cause panic.

Gráinne O'Hare: 19:04

mm.

Jason Blitman: 19:05

You have deadlines, debt, drinking, dentist, dread, despair, and I was like, oh, that's real. When did you realize that?

Gráinne O'Hare: 19:18

day is real. Yeah. I think it, it was fortunate as for that sort of that's line that they used to refer to anxiety as like getting the day. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I, it would be a fun challenge to work out, could I find synonyms, but then it wouldn't really work with the expression, yeah. But it was definitely handy. It's it also felt like a sort of whimsical way of describing crippling anxiety, which I think is how a lot of the characters in the book deal with very, very stressful and difficult emotions is to make a little joke about it and pretend everything's fine.

Jason Blitman: 20:00

I was just thinking of more and I was, okay. Depression, doubt.

Gráinne O'Hare: 20:07

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 20:08

I'm suddenly, my brain is just there has to be more, like this is clearly a rule that we don't even realize exists

Gráinne O'Hare: 20:15

yeah. I don't, I guess the, that prefix day, like day eight means, decline like regression or depression of some kind yeah. Oh,

Jason Blitman: 20:26

Oh, duh. But not deadlines in debt and drinking and dentists, like those are not

Gráinne O'Hare: 20:32

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 20:33

Yeah.

Gráinne O'Hare: 20:34

I know.

Jason Blitman: 20:36

That's really

Gráinne O'Hare: 20:37

Yeah, this is about as philosophical as

Jason Blitman: 20:38

you had me

Gráinne O'Hare: 20:39

like, oh my God. Yeah. I am smart.

Jason Blitman: 20:42

it's like a right, like some sort of new philosophical rule that you've created. Something. Getting the D means that you have anxiety and depression. So funny. We, I don't know how old you are, but I was like, we have so many of the same references that pop up in the book that just brought me joy, my two favorites, being OkCupid and you've got mail.

Gráinne O'Hare: 21:09

yeah. Big. Ignore Aron. Fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 21:14

You've got Male is hands down one of my favorite movies of all time, which I think is a little problematic these days in terms of, the big corporation situation, billionaire things that we have going on. But OkCupid, are you an OkCupid? Was that a thing? Tell me

Gráinne O'Hare: 21:31

I think because if I remember correctly, I think that was like a reference that was whenever one of the characters was a teenager. And I think when she was growing up and learning what kind of, she, I think she, she goes safe sex must have been sex that ended like a date that ended without you getting murdered by a stranger. You might on. Okay. Keep it. And I think. That was because whenever I was a teenager, those were the only kind of. Online dating things that existed, I think, or that I was aware of anyway. I think the app scene was more whenever I was in my twenties. So yeah, it felt because I think as well, because I got a lot of lectures in school and stuff about the dangers of chat rooms and speaking to strangers on the internet and I. Here we are years later and that we never stopped doing that. We're we just live there now, all together in a one horrible commune.

Jason Blitman: 22:31

I know. It had me thinking about your dating life which of course I know nothing about, but I am curious to know if, what is the thing that if you walked into someone's. That you saw that would make you immediately wanna leave

Gráinne O'Hare: 22:51

that's a really good question. Ah, because, so I've been in a,

Jason Blitman: 22:57

deep journalism going on

Gráinne O'Hare: 22:59

I have been in a relationship for three years now, so I haven't had to think about X in quite a long time. Oh, do you know what? Any kind of musical instrument, because I dated a lot of musicians and I don't wanna do that ever again. Yeah. That would be my red

Jason Blitman: 23:17

but context is so important though because what if it was like their great-grandfathers and they weren't actually a musician, but they had it on display, but you didn't even think to ask them. You just. Scoot it off.

Gráinne O'Hare: 23:29

it wasn't meant to be, was it?

Jason Blitman: 23:32

I know that's so true. I was thinking, I was wondering the same thing for myself, and I don't, I wonder if it's an unmade bed or a mountain of dishes in the sink or not having a bookshelf. I couldn't, I was trying to think what that would be

Gráinne O'Hare: 23:51

Yeah. I feel like an unmade bed is very, even though mine isn't always made, I feel like. Yeah. Also, if it's a bed that's not a bed, it's just like a box spring or a mattress on the floor. That's, that feels bleak.

Jason Blitman: 24:06

Yes.

Gráinne O'Hare: 24:08

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 24:09

And it's okay that your bed isn't always made, but if you know you're having someone come over, you're probably gonna

Gráinne O'Hare: 24:14

Exactly. Yeah. I think laundry, dirty laundry, sitting out. Ugh, gross. If you know someone's coming over, bad manners.

Jason Blitman: 24:23

yeah.

Gráinne O'Hare: 24:24

Too much faith in your own

Jason Blitman: 24:26

And it also made me think of the opposite too.

Gráinne O'Hare: 24:29

oh, sorry. I think there might have been a delay.

Jason Blitman: 24:32

I do think there's a very short as tiny delay, but I was gonna say that it made me think of the opposite too. Whereas what if I like got to someone's apartment and I saw something that would make me wanna stay and like maybe it's a stack of my favorite books or it's, I see that they're a baker and they've just baked cookies or. Those are the first two things that come to mind.

Gráinne O'Hare: 24:56

Yeah, I am just thinking as well because the first time that, my now partner came back to mine. I had just got back from like a trip and so I had an open suitcase and most of my possessions strewn all over the room. So if I had used my rules on myself, I would never have seen me again. So maybe it's all meaningless anyway. Yeah, I dunno.

Jason Blitman: 25:25

Or maybe you're that great.

Gráinne O'Hare: 25:27

probably true actually. That's, let's go with that.

Jason Blitman: 25:30

Yes. It was such a good date that it, there was, it didn't matter what was ha what was showing up. You talk about tequila being a young person's game. Say more. What is your trauma with tequila? That clearly came from

Gráinne O'Hare: 25:43

I do. You know what, I actually, tequila would've been my shot of choice. It, Sambuca was the one I couldn't do. I think after one of my friends, we went to a gig together in Belfast and it was in a really horrible pub we were in beforehand and she was like, she loved Sambuca and she was like, I'm gonna go and order us a shot of Sambuca. And she came back a with three shots each and b. They didn't have any normal sambuca, so two of the shots were cinnamon flavored Sambuca, which tasted like medicine as if Sambuca doesn't already taste like medicine. Two of them were banana flavored Sambuca, which was so gross. And I think the other two were strawberry. It was a very bizarre cocktail of mistakes that went on that night. But yeah, so I, I.

Jason Blitman: 26:33

This is

Gráinne O'Hare: 26:34

Yeah, so I always used to drink tequila and I think I ju maybe it was lockdown or something, or maybe it was just not drinking it for a while, or maybe it was the. it's more socially acceptable now to drink sort of milder shots like baby guinnesses or tequila rose or something. But I'm not like, I'm not like such a baby. I can only drink really milky shots. So yeah, I think the last time I tried tequila, it did make me wanna throw up in the street.

Jason Blitman: 27:03

You said milky shots and that a follow up question is, what the hell is chocolate tequila? Where did that come from? That sounded disgusting, but also I'm very curious. I, I.

Gráinne O'Hare: 27:16

I don't know if it was just a specific offering, if you can call it that, by one club called Limelight in Belfast at a particular time in my twenties. But Yeah. Yeah not a good. Ugh. Yeah, it wasn't nice. I don't think it was even that milky.

Jason Blitman: 27:37

There's no way they still

Gráinne O'Hare: 27:38

I haven't been in a very long time. I went on I have a Facebook, I never go on it anymore. And I went on the other day for the first time in months and I had a notification that said, limelight Belfast has added an event that you might be interested in. And I was like, I. Very much doubt that the temple of chocolate, tequila, and bad decisions.

Jason Blitman: 28:03

That is so funny. Oh my God, that sounds like a great book title. I. There's so much about friendship, obviously, in this book and what it means to know people for so long, and there is that sort of threshold of. Of friend to family and that no matter where the world takes you, that you know that there is the connective fabric that you'll forever be a part of that person. What's your history with friends? Like how, what's your friend group like? This I, for, I think everyone's in a specific age demo, pre and post. Deep internet have a really specific relationship to their friends. Can you share a bit about them?

Gráinne O'Hare: 28:56

Yeah, I think whenever I started writing this book, I had just left Belfast and I had a core group of friends that I'd been at uni with. And it was, we were all some of them were staying in Belfast and some of them were like me, were going off to different places and I think. There was like missing going out with them while I lived in Belfast. But then also we kept in touch a lot. Like we sent each other endless voice notes and, almost every day. And so we kept in touch that way. So I think that's probably one way that if we didn't live in a social media age and have so much technology at our disposal. We maybe wouldn't have had that kind of connection that was maintained like after, after we'd all moved away from each other. That was more than just saying, oh, someone's engaged on Instagram. We were just voice noting about like a lot of minutia and it was. A lot more convenient than trying to kinda coordinate four or five people to all do a zoom together. And I guess this was back before Zoom was such a huge thing as well'cause it was pre pandemic. But yeah, I think that yeah, like every time I see my friends, there'll be like my friends from home. Definitely and the friends that I've made since moving to England who have since moved away as well. I think there's this sort of, you catch up on the recent stuff and the new stuff and then you start getting into kind of like applying through old grind, but it doesn't feel boring or repetitive. It's more kind of I don't know if other people, if my friends feel the same or if other people feel the same. It's like reminding yourself that we're not losing the sacred texts. Like we still all remember those anecdotes that we. That became part of our group lore and that we all still make references to anytime my friend Rachel, who was the one who bought me the Sambuca before, anytime she's like out with us or we're all at a wedding together and we'll be like, is Pam out tonight? Because 10 years ago she was like, I think I've got a drunk alter ego. And she's called Angry Pamela. And so we like, we're still talking about angry Pam. 10, 10 years later. And it's because I think when we see each other again, we'll still keep reminding each other of those references and it's like quoting a sort of beloved film or something to people, but it's your own lives. So that sounds quite wanky, but like quite pretentious and, but yeah. Yeah. I think it's just going back over.

Jason Blitman: 31:41

No I've. I've never really thought of it like that before, and I think it's such a beautiful way to think about it, because to me, my first instinct is to be annoyed that we're rehashing the same things, or that someone's telling the same story or it almost feels questioning my memory of something rather than, no, we're trying to keep those memories alive and I think, I think that's a really fun and special way to think about it.

Gráinne O'Hare: 32:07

Thank you. Yeah. I just, that's fresh in my mind now'cause I was at a wedding a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about angry Pam yeah. And it made me glad that those texts are still very much alive. I.

Jason Blitman: 32:22

Yeah. What would your drunk alter ego

Gráinne O'Hare: 32:26

Oh, mine. Actually, I think I gave her name to Lydia in the book. Mine was always Betty and it was she, I think I used to do like after some wine and tequila. I used to do what was, in hindsight, a chronically bad queen's accent and I used to put on a character of some sort of aging showgirl that was, and start talking to, it feels quite topical given life of a showgirl and the, but I feel like I used to do that alter ego of giving people advice and Yeah. Yeah. The OJ life of a showgirl.

Jason Blitman: 33:07

I please, I need a little glimmer of it. I need a tiny bit. What's a piece of advice you would give me as this age showgirl?

Gráinne O'Hare: 33:15

Oh my God. I can't, I think it was normally in the brand of dump him, but the, what is it? The Britney Spears T-shirt? Yeah. It was probably like,

Jason Blitman: 33:27

I need to see the voice I need, or I need to hear the voice I need. Come on, give

Gráinne O'Hare: 33:31

this is gonna be here for all time. I cannot commit that too. Honestly, it was so bad. I'm only, I'm also only any good at accents whenever I'm a bit pissed so yeah I've made this mistake before where I'm like, I've done a brilliant impression when I'm drunk and then I try and re recreated sober and it's just not gonna happen. And then I feel like I've picked it up too much.

Jason Blitman: 33:55

That's because it's brilliant because everyone is drunk and that's the only

Gráinne O'Hare: 33:59

is true. I,

Jason Blitman: 34:01

I fully respect that you know yourself and that you know that this is being recorded and that you, maybe you wanna run for office one day, maybe, who knows? And this, it doesn't need to exist in the world. We'll just have to imagine it, and that's okay.

Gráinne O'Hare: 34:18

yeah. Yeah. And however bad you imagine it was, I assure you it was worse.

Jason Blitman: 34:24

Okay. I am obsessed. You also brought up life of a showgirl and Taylor Swift comes up a few times in the book. What are your thoughts and feelings? How do you feel about the album? What's happening? Are you a Swift eat? Tell me

Gráinne O'Hare: 34:38

I'm a swifty. I actually really enjoy the new album and I feel like on the day I came out, I listened to it first thing in the morning and I was like, oh, I'm into this. And then I went on social media and discovered I was wrong. But yeah, I think I really enjoy it. I think the only song I'm not,

Jason Blitman: 34:56

So do I.

Gráinne O'Hare: 34:56

fast on is wishlist, but the rest I'm like, bangers. And then there's this weird thing of remembering people are like this is, this can't be the woman who wrote tortured poets department. And I'm just like, you hated that when it came out as well. What are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. I say.

Jason Blitman: 35:12

Yes. Thank you. This, and listen, I am not a swifty, but I am pay attention to the world around me, and I'm like, every single time this woman comes out with an album, the people hate it. And then they listen to it multiple times and then they love it. And the jokes on all of us because her tour is still gonna sell a bajillion dollars and people are still gonna line up to go see her because she is a show person. And that's what we love to see. And the music is a bop.

Gráinne O'Hare: 35:36

Yeah, I enjoy it. Someone asked me which era or which album I thought Thirst Trap would be? And I was like, caught off guard, even though I should have thought that about this ages ago. And I said, midnights. And I think I stand by that because Midnights was an album that was about learning that something wasn't. Serving you and was, and that was something you needed to let go of. And a lot of late night ponderings and freakouts. And I was like that's my book.

Jason Blitman: 36:10

Maybe it's midnight's, life of a showgirl rising.

Gráinne O'Hare: 36:13

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 36:14

Did you ever take archery lessons?

Gráinne O'Hare: 36:17

I did actually when I was 18. So they weren't they weren't booked. I think I was trying to think of the kind of thing I would've. Wanted to return to as it like later in life thinking. Yeah, I was really good at that. Let's try that again. But yeah, I did with my sister. It was around about the time the Hunger Games came out as well. I think so, yeah. I think I was trying to

Jason Blitman: 36:44

What's so funny about that is every once in a while I will. That's so funny. Every once in a while I will ask an author a question like that, knowing full well that like, obviously books are fiction or fiction is fiction and it is very unlikely that something like that happened in their real life. So I was not expecting you to say it. I was expecting you to roll your eyes and be like, no, Jason, that's made up because this is a book.

Gráinne O'Hare: 37:10

I didn't book them drunk. I think me and my sister were teenagers and really wanted to do archery, so it was quite actually quite a wholesome

Jason Blitman: 37:20

so

Gráinne O'Hare: 37:20

pursuit.

Jason Blitman: 37:22

I am only now remembering that when I was at a summer camp when I was, I don't know, seven or eight years old, there were like multiple activities throughout the day that you could sign up for and one of them was archery, and I'm sure I was terrible at it, but I. Who knows. I don't know if it was fun, but it's, because who sports when I was that young were not my thing.

Gráinne O'Hare: 37:43

Yeah I think I tried most sports and was middling at all of them. Yeah. Yeah, we're actually I was good at archery actually. Managed not to kill anyone. Success.

Jason Blitman: 37:58

All that matters. That's like goal one of archery. So funny. The book had me thinking so much about how when you're friends with somebody for so long, how you are not always given the grace of change and. When someone knows you so well that you're almost put in a box and that's how you're known and how you're supposed to be. And it just got me thinking about how to challenge that with the people that have been in our lives for a long time. And, is it a matter of actions and proving yourself or, I don't know, but it. It just had me thinking about that because we're not the same people that we were when we were, 18, 19, 20, meeting friends for the first time. What has that experience been like for you?

Gráinne O'Hare: 38:57

Yeah, I think the only, if I'm ever inclined to like. Resent or challenge change in other people? It's generally because they're like suddenly less available as a friend. And I know that people go through phases of life where, you know, because of work or because of relationships or families and all kinds of reasons that, people aren't gonna be, you're not necessarily gonna be live in each other's pockets the way you might. When you're, 25 and all living together. So I think, but I think it can be I. A bit jarring whenever there's someone who you knew in your twenties, say as like a massive sesh head who wanted to stay out until four in the morning, and they're now like wanting to live a different life. But if that then means that they don't wanna see certain people because they assume because you have those shared memories that's gonna be, and then you almost have to take them. By the shoulders and be like we can just meet up and have coffee. We can just have lunch. It doesn't have to be, if that's a change that you've made in your life, that's fine. I think, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:16

But even more specifically though, there is a moment towards the end of the book, and I don't want to give anything away, but basically one friend says to the other, I know that this is what you're going to do and the choice that you're gonna make, because that's what you do. And it made me. So sad for both of them that you don't, you either don't feel like your friends can change or you don't feel like you're capable of change. So yeah, just thinking about what does it mean to disappoint the people around you or that you behavior perhaps has grown and changed over time, but like the people who are closest to you or almost too close to you to see it.

Gráinne O'Hare: 41:02

Yeah, that's a good question actually. I think oh, that's, maybe think now because I know the thing you're talking about, obviously, and

Jason Blitman: 41:11

yeah,

Gráinne O'Hare: 41:12

Oh God. I've gone

Jason Blitman: 41:14

but I was just so

Gráinne O'Hare: 41:14

yeah,

Jason Blitman: 41:15

bec

Gráinne O'Hare: 41:16

I know. I think it's a,

Jason Blitman: 41:19

I know.

Gráinne O'Hare: 41:20

yeah. Oh that's a really good question and I'm now like in my head a bit about it. Trying to think.

Jason Blitman: 41:26

And maybe there's not an answer but I'cause, because I know for me, like I've been in therapy, I've had a lot of really great and thoughtful and interesting conversations with friends and like giving myself grace and giving other people grace. And needing to remember that we are capable of change. And that is not always the case, right? I think we all have trauma, we've all been burned, we've all had those experiences with a friend who does the thing that always hurt your feelings or always does whatever. So you're expecting them to continue doing that.

Gráinne O'Hare: 41:59

Yeah. And I,

Jason Blitman: 42:00

and it's hard to think about how you make that change.

Gráinne O'Hare: 42:03

yeah, I do. I do think as well, like I'm not sure if there's sometimes whenever people fall out with friends because they've, someone's made a mistake or someone has been acting a certain way, I feel like we maybe have. M are more motivated to try and improve things and try and persevere when it comes to romantic relationships. But sometimes with friendships, it's just and maybe that's a case of you maybe live with your romantic partner, so it's logistically more practical for you to try and work something out. Whereas when. You if you don't live with friends it's more easy to stew and let things slide and slide out of contact with someone and then just realize, oh yeah, we haven't spoken in a while because someone did that thing or we had, something go on or something that was never resolved and it feels awkward to go back and address it now. And I think because as well, you don't often have like formal. Friendship breakups in the way that you do romantically, then it's kinda left a bit more up to oh yeah, we just fell out of touch. Even though it can be as devastating a heartbreak as breaking up with someone you were in love with. Yeah, so I think the kind of. Sorry, that's really rambling, but that's, I do know what you mean about

Jason Blitman: 43:33

that's a really great

Gráinne O'Hare: 43:35

sorry. I think there is a delay again. No I do know what you mean about giving people space to know that they're able to change and I think. The same is in a romantic relationship. It's important not to, if you've forgiven someone for something and decided to move on and accept that they've changed. And it is important to not hang on to that because I think it can be as toxic in friendships when if you've got in the back of your head like, oh yeah, we. We fell out, but we've made up now. But then whenever someone makes a mistake, it's she was always like this. Did I ever tell you about the time she did that or he did whatever? And yeah, so I think it definitely is important to, if you're gonna make up, there needs to be some kind of letting go of that.

Jason Blitman: 44:21

And it is so interesting you bringing up the whole oh, we just fell out, or, oh, we just lost touch because we, the, it sounds that the stakes are lower with friends, but you're right, we're not living on top of each other. There's not the potential of romantic. Future and legal entanglements, right? They're less of a reason to have difficult and awkward conversations with friends, to rekindle something that wasn't, that's not necessarily working. But to circle it back to just the idea of queer community, but also this like core group of friends that exist in the book, when you have these friends as family, it. It makes me just think about how important it is to have some of those difficult conversations with the friends that you love. And anyway, the book, I think, in general reminded me of that and made me think about that as well.

Gráinne O'Hare: 45:13

Oh, thank you. Yeah I do think and I think I had a movie I, whenever I was in my twenties, I was like, oh, now I am thinking about like how my friendships are so important and why are we always prioritizing. Romantic relationships is this kind of, and friendships is like a placeholder until something like that comes along. And I, and once I'd come to that, I was like, yes, my friendships are so important and we're all gonna be this close in the exactly the same way forever, with exactly the same immediacy of intimacy and. Contact and all of that. And then of course you do get a bit older and things do change and you feel I felt, anyway. I was like, was I lying to myself? Was it all, all of this, romanticization that I did around friendship, was that misplaced somehow? Because now it takes, three weeks in a doodle poll to, to get three people together for lunch one weekend. But I do, I think it's hanging on to the how important your friendships are and also, accepting that things are not always gonna be the same, but that you need to be able to adapt to each other and the way that each other's lives and just life in general is changing as you get older.

Jason Blitman: 46:36

I love that. And what a beautiful way to end our conversation. Grana O'Hare, everyone go get your copy of Thirst Trap out now, wherever you get your books. And thank you so much

Gráinne O'Hare: 46:47

Thank you so much for having me. This has been a really lost chat. I.

Jason Blitman: 46:51

A lush chat. I love that.​welcome to Gay's reading. Very happy to have you. Of course my very special guest gay reader today. And I am. I am, I need to get on some sort of crusade or I'm on a crusade and I need to figure out how to actually make it happen so that books get published with editor and author notes that we get in arcs and galleys.

Brian Schaefer: 47:26

Oh yes.

Jason Blitman: 47:27

This is my crusade because getting, as I was just saying, context art and context. If we get the context from an editor of why they chose to publish it and some additional information from an author, should they have additional context to provide, it only makes the reading experience better.

Brian Schaefer: 47:45

And I think especially too, because in my editor letter, I think she misspelled my name and I think she refers to me as brain, which is like a very common thing, which I do to myself. But I absolutely love that made it in there. These are, uncorrected proofs. Of course,

Jason Blitman: 48:01

Your name comes up twice in the letter. The first is traditional Brian. Second is Brain

Brian Schaefer: 48:10

Yes, that's right. Yes. Which it's happened to me all my life.

Jason Blitman: 48:14

Yeah, I get Justin all the

Brian Schaefer: 48:16

Uhhuh,

Jason Blitman: 48:18

Yeah, it's.

Brian Schaefer: 48:18

yeah.

Jason Blitman: 48:20

Whatever it is what it is. But

Brian Schaefer: 48:21

Sure. I'll take it.

Jason Blitman: 48:23

brain is good though. It like implies intelligence, thoughtfulness.

Brian Schaefer: 48:28

I will, I'll embrace it whenever it's applied.

Jason Blitman: 48:31

Yeah. Okay. Well I brought this up about the letters because you have a beautiful letter that is included in the galley that talks about you and your mom being the readers of the family.

Brian Schaefer: 48:45

Yes.

Jason Blitman: 48:46

So it is an even more appropriate thing to have you as my guest gay reader. So I for, before we talk about that, what are you reading?

Brian Schaefer: 48:53

What am I reading? Well, kind of to what we, how we started. I'm reading a lot of playbills these days, you know, like last night at Ragtime, that was the second piece of theater that I've seen this week actually, the third, although the first one was a kind of one-off know, fundraising performance was j Armstrong Johnson's. I put a spell on you, which is. 10 year anniversary, his hocus pocus spoof. It's a fantastic dance extravaganza. But no, no playbill for that. But then the night before I saw Little Bear Ridge Road still in previews with Lori Metcalf, so I was

Jason Blitman: 49:26

Controversial but great.

Brian Schaefer: 49:28

yes, very. But she is extraordinary. She is just just mesmerizing to watch. Last night was rag time on Friday, I'm going to chess. Which will and I like the playbills, I love the articles. I love like the mini one page profiles that they do. I love reading people's bios, how they cram in all their work, and especially the people who have won all these awards. And it's just they, it is just a throwaway, like parentheses Academy Emmy Tony Award. I love who they

Jason Blitman: 50:00

There's a word count.

Brian Schaefer: 50:01

Yeah. I love when Megan Hilty like totally just grabs Meryl Streep's biography for death becomes her, all the different ways that people play with it. And I love seeing the whole team that kind of puts the show together. And I love like flipping to the back and seeing where everybody goes for their after theater meal.

Jason Blitman: 50:20

Do you, is that sort of your, is that a routine? Do you go and are you flipping through the playbill before the show? Is it a on the train ride home? Is it a.

Brian Schaefer: 50:31

It's a little bit of both when I get to the theater, depending on the amount of time that I have and. I'm gonna get a playbill three times this week, three or four times this week. It's not gonna change, it's still gonna be the same articles, but, but maybe I didn't get to read one of the articles on Tuesday, so I'm gonna get to read it on Thursday. I do love flipping through it on the subway home. You know, especially if there's somebody in a show who surprises you and you don't know who they are, who's this person that blew me away, that really landed this moment, that feels like a discovery. And I want to know who they are, where they've come from, and, uh, and that discovery is always a pleasure. And playbill kind of gives you that immediate, uh, ability to kind of, to check them out and, and see who was part of the cast.

Jason Blitman: 51:14

Yeah, it also. It tells a lot about a person what they do and don't include. And I am meaning, I say this sort of selfishly, but I used to do casting for theater works, USA and it isn't uncommon for, young actors to get their equity card from Theater Works is their first professional job, and they sort of forget that job ever happened or existed. And so when I flip through a playbill and I see someone credits a theater work show as their first job, or that they just did it at all, it sort of means like, oh, they don't, they're not forgetting where they came from, or they're not ashamed of where they came from. They understand the value of the work in general. There's someone who, she was an understudy in a ltel production of Junie B's Essential Survival Guide to School. And she just made her Broadway debut this week and, and Juliet, and she includes Junie b Jones in her bio. And again, it just like means so much from, for all sorts of reasons. But it says a lot about her too.

Brian Schaefer: 52:21

Yeah, totally. There. No there, there are these many histories of people. It's it's fascinating.

Jason Blitman: 52:27

What would your Broadway bio say? Are there fun things that you would want to include that you don't necess that wouldn't be in an author bio?

Brian Schaefer: 52:35

Yeah, I think certainly in the high school musical when I won the award for best dancers, I was in, that was in dam Yankees. That was in Joseph in the Amazing Technicolor Dream coat. In a lot of ways that was a little bit the stepping stones to how I ended up accidentally getting an undergraduate degree in dance. So I think my bio would. It would look so arbitrary and just the different swerves that I took, because it would be undergraduate at uc, San Diego in dance, and then all of a sudden I'm working for an Israeli newspaper in Tel Aviv. All of a sudden writing dance coverage at the New York Times, and all of a sudden publishing a novel about, gazes upstate. None of it makes sense. None of it leads to anything else. So I think it would just, it would look odd and hopefully amusing.

Jason Blitman: 53:20

Well, and that's sort of the fun of these truncated bios. You really get those bullet points and you can. Imagine what the through line is and what this sort of little history is. Not that we need to like keep talking about it, but I do, I'm, we, I'm sure we both have been reading playbills for a very, very, very long time. And an interesting thing to think about that I assume you're a person who keeps your playbills, I assume you're a person who has revisited them every once in a while. Yes, of course. I one sees the other. I get it. Looking back at a show that I saw. 20 years ago and flipping through the playbill to see that Kelly O'Hara was in the ensemble of the National Tour of Jekyll and Hyde, and reading her bio compared to obviously who she is now, it's just a really interesting time capsule too, to sort of see where people, uh, have come from and what their journey is, and to remind yourself as a, as an art consumer, the sort of work that you got to see once upon a time.

Brian Schaefer: 54:21

Yes, absolutely. And and to remember too, when I go into, do, go to a theater now off Broadway or someone in the ensemble that one of these people could be in 10, 20 years, the person who is the headliner, the star, the above the title that I got to discover it's thrilling.

Jason Blitman: 54:41

So what, how, what was that journey like for you from obviously reader to dancer, to journalist, to soon to be published author?

Brian Schaefer: 54:53

Yeah, it, I mean, it looks, again, it looks so arbitrary on paper, but. Along the way, it made sense somehow. And you know, I think the way that I found my way to dance was through theater. It's because my parents were, they were both theater fans and they basically just played cast recordings, uh, at the home. And so. I kind of fell into musical theater in high school. I really cannot sing, but the dance kind of came easily to me and I really enjoyed it, and that was something I could contribute to a production. And so, especially in high school, they kind of grabbed me and put me on the front of the stage and, and I. You know, I recognized a love for it. And so when I went to undergrad and I went as a communication major, I think my goal was some vague version of journalism pr, I have no idea. But I started taking classes at the dance department and again, they see a tall guy and they just kind of like throw you on stage in your first semester. I mean. But I also fell in love with the art form. And you know, when I studied abroad, I studied abroad in Copenhagen and I watched everything that the Royal Danish Ballet did and was just kind of blown away. We did not have that do, we didn't have, did not have that level of dance in San Diego. Um, so that was kinda my first opportunity to see really world class dance. And when I came back and decided to add a second major, one of the classes I had to take was criticism and aesthetics. And that was an opportunity where I first started engaging with dance through writing, and we were reading all the great critics and we were evaluating shows. And I found that I really loved engaging with it in that way. And the professor of that class who also ran the dance department. She told me afterwards as I was graduating that, okay, if you want to pursue performance, you're improving and you'll find your way. You'll find a place for yourself, but dance needs writers and maybe that can be your contribution. And it was the first time that I really thought about that bringing together kind of the writing that I enjoyed with this art form that I fell in love with. And so I started doing more of that, uh, when I moved to Tel Aviv for a leadership fellowship. I really immersed myself in the dance scene, both kind of folk dance and contemporary dance because I was there because I had built relationships in the dance writing world.

Jason Blitman: 57:09

As an audience member, as a dancer, as a.

Brian Schaefer: 57:13

kind of All of the above. I was taking dance workshops. I was volunteering at the Contemporary Dance Center. And I had also started writing. I started writing about dance for like timeout Israel, and when I started working for the newspaper, I started writing about culture for them because I had also somewhat separately joined the Dance Critics Association in the States. Before I left, I built relationships with people writing about dance at the New York Times and

Jason Blitman: 57:40

many people are in that association?

Brian Schaefer: 57:42

Now I don't think they think it exists at.

Jason Blitman: 57:44

Because there were six people.

Brian Schaefer: 57:46

I think it's defunct. I think the fact that I was in my mid twenties and I never held a professional dance writing position and yet still found myself on the board of the Dance Critics Association, tells you I think about what that was. But it was also an incredible opportunity

Jason Blitman: 58:04

Oh, of course.

Brian Schaefer: 58:05

like these people who I had been reading, uh, for so long and I so admired and I'm now kind of in conversation with them about dance. It was, it was very exciting. And because I. Kind of had that affiliation. When I approached the New York Times to pitch a story about a dance company in Israel, they were open to hearing from me and nobody else was bringing them that story. And so they let me write it. And it was the first new, it was the first story I ever wrote for a newspaper was for the New York Times, which is just. like a total Trojan horse. I'm like jumping in the front of the line. I have absolutely no business doing that. But then once I have that by byline, I can take that to anywhere. And so it really just became the way that I was able to build a freelance career. And simultaneously while I was there, I stumbled into a creative writing program in English and fell in love with fiction as well. That was the first time that I was reading.

Jason Blitman: 58:58

With fiction writing,

Brian Schaefer: 59:00

writing. Yeah. Had been reading, babysitters Club, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew, devoured everything. Always a big reader but had never, had, never really dabbled in writing. Even though my parents constantly remind me of this. I apparently won a writing award in the fourth grade, and they take that as, the sign that this is what I was meant to do.

Jason Blitman: 59:23

Yeah.

Brian Schaefer: 59:24

But I don't even remember it and I really didn't write my first fiction until, until I was almost 30 really?

Jason Blitman: 59:31

That's amazing. And I fully understand the whole Trojan horse thing because even with this podcast, I had been working for an arts and culture center in New York City and. Was doing a little podcast for them. And because of the reputation of the building, I was able to have people like Gabrielle Z and Emily St. John Mendel and Jenny Jackson and Sloan Crosley in conversation. That was sort of an accident. And so now, so then when I started Gay's reading, I like had this pedigree and I had a list, right? So I was like, oh, I guess, okay, here we are.

Brian Schaefer: 1:00:10

It's all accidental and it's all not, like you, you get yourself in these positions, you think about, okay, what can I do with this? What are the opportunities that this opens up? And some of that is like totally subconscious, but you have some vague sense of like where you want to go

Jason Blitman: 1:00:26

And what you're capable

Brian Schaefer: 1:00:27

Totally, yeah.

Jason Blitman: 1:00:28

so I talked about the letter that came with the galley written by you, and of course you talk about how you and your mom were. The readers of the family and that now you have a Mommy and Me book club. What are some of the things that you've read in your book club? Can you talk about how are you different readers? I am obsessed that you're both reading books simultaneously. Tell me everything.

Brian Schaefer: 1:00:51

Yes, so it started very unintentionally. I basically had. Always wanted to read middle March and just one year, one year from my mom's birthday, I decided that would be a cute gift. I'll give her this book and I'll invite her to read it with me. And in retrospect, I was a little unfair because she had a full-time job. She was like running a department and I was like, here's this thousand page Victorian. Tom, like, please make time to read it with me. But of course, because she is, she wants to do everything with her sons, so she said yes. It took us six months and so we didn't actually get to debrief it until Thanksgiving. But when we did, we just had this super fun, super special conversation about marriage and relationships and all the things that Middlemarch kind of brought up, and we both absolutely fell in love with the book. And so to share both the accomplishment of that and also to see the way that it. Opened up a new form of communication for us. I mean, we've always been close, but just some things that we don't regularly talk about. Oh, your 40 year marriage to my father, you know, uh, now 50 years. Um, and at the time I had kind of just started my relationship with my now husband, and so it just brought up this conversation that, I don't know, we would've initiated other ways and we so enjoyed the experience that we. We decided to do it again and the pattern became that we really enjoyed reading these books that were very known and had made an impact on culture. So these classics that you see referenced all the time, but we had never read the source material, so that started to be what we aimed for. And so we ended up reading great expectations and portrait of a lady and the brothers Karasov, and these really massive things. We've been doing it for a decade now, and for our 10th anniversary this past summer, I assigned us Moby Dick, which we read.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:50

I have it sitting on my shelf.

Brian Schaefer: 1:02:52

I went to the Nantucket book festival this summer for the first time. It was so much fun and while I was there I was like, this has to be the book of the year. Like they have a whole like shrine to it. So I got us Moby Dick and it was a great experience.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:04

So a friend of mine suggested a book that is about all of the queer coded ness of Moby Dick. And so I also bought that book and he was like, I think you'd find it very fascinating to read them in tandem. I haven't had a chance to do that yet, but that is my intention.

Brian Schaefer: 1:03:22

I would like to read that.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:23

Yeah. I'll tell you what it, I can't remember what it's called, but I'll let you know. So it's always big books and it's one a year.

Brian Schaefer: 1:03:29

So it's one a year that I gift her for her birthday. But because we've built this relationship now, we're sharing books all the time and we're talking about it always. And so, you know, she'll, she'll ask me what I can recommend when she's about to take a big trip or she'll, you know, I read all fours because my mom was. Reading it and she thought it was really interesting. And it wasn't a book that I think I was gonna pick up otherwise, but when mom recommends it, it goes top of the list and and we now have a, an ongoing exchange, which, and so it's changed, it's changed how frequently we communicate. It's changed our conversations because we always have something to share and we're always taking these journeys together and we always have these stories that we're both commenting on. So it's been a really fun development.

Jason Blitman: 1:04:15

I love that. I feel like that happens with books in general. So it's particularly fun to hear that it's happening with your mom, a person who you've known your whole life, but now get to experience on a whole new not just level, but like when there are themes that come up in a book that you perhaps wouldn't otherwise talk about. And that's true, you know, with your friends as well. But when it comes to a parent, you know, you don't, you don't think about comparing. 50 year long marriage to the book that you're just reading unless you're reading it together. So you said she was one of your very early readers. What is your elevator pitch for town and country?

Brian Schaefer: 1:04:54

Town and Country is follows a congressional race in a trendy rural district that upends relationships between a group of gay, second homeowners and a local family. And challenges everyone's political, social, and familial loyalties. Everybody has that urban center and that place an hour or two hours away that everyone escapes to that just has this kind of clash of culture and a constant kind of shift in evolution in kind of the character of the town and what that does and how people participate in it and how it affects their relationships.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:31

If this chapter of your life right now had a title, what would you call it?

Brian Schaefer: 1:05:38

I feel like I am like in my IPO phase, I guess it would be like Brian goes public or something like that, just because.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:49

Just like the best little whorehouse in Texas.

Brian Schaefer: 1:05:50

Yeah, exactly. Quite literally, like my Instagram was private until earlier this year and had been for the, what, 10, 12 years that I was on it. And this was a moment where talking with my publisher and they did not pressure me or anything, but they said. It certainly would help if you were, if you made this public, if you were willing to share about the book and your journey and use it to make connections with readers and people in the book world. And it was it was like a moment of, okay, I am putting myself out there for the first time. And, you know, and I've written articles for over a decade now and I've written opinion pieces. I mean, I've certainly. Shared my thoughts before, but there feels something completely different about putting my own kind of creative project out there for the first time, and also putting myself out there for the first time. So it really feels like, okay, please buy my stock,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:45

yeah, of course. And not even just putting your creative content out there, but like among the first things I said to you was, I saw that you were at Ragtime last night we're connected on Instagram, because I saw that. So it is interesting to be like, oh, this is a very public platform, but I love that. IPO, Brian goes public. Yes, the IPO moment. Yeah, buy my stock. Lots of good titles with it in there somewhere. I'm obsessed. Earlier you rattled off Babysitters, club Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew as books that were influential to you. Is there one in particular that really sparked your love of reading as a young person?

Brian Schaefer: 1:07:26

I think all of those books, all those books, I think like the ongoing story of these characters is the thing that.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:34

Interesting.

Brian Schaefer: 1:07:35

That I was able to follow their journey and a little bit their growth. I would say probably more Babysitters Club. The other thing that I loved about the Babysitters Club is that whatever I was dealing with in my life, I felt like I could find a story in that series that spoke to it in some way. So something that one of the characters was going through. If I was having a moment at school or some friendship that was on the rocks or a. You know, it was like I found solace and I found direction and I found companionship in those books. And they think they instill a love of reading and I think a habit of reading and kind of like the, like the physical comfort with sitting there flipping through pages and knowing that you can do it for hours and hours and take such pleasure in it. Because I think it, I think it really is like a physical habit that. We lose when we keep scrolling through our phones. And it is a thing that, it's a muscle that you have to maintain. And I think when people say that, oh, I don't have time for reading, I think half the times it's, no, you lost the muscle for reading and you haven't, you haven't worked it out, you haven't cultivated it, you haven't given it attention.

Jason Blitman: 1:08:42

When people say, when people ask me that, the first thing I say is, I have to put my phone down. I have to put it away. I have to put it on do not disturb. Any little buzz or anything distracts

Brian Schaefer: 1:08:52

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 1:08:53

It distracts me in the sense of I wanna then look

Brian Schaefer: 1:08:55

yeah. Exactly. No, and I'm, I just make it a habit where. The first thing I pick up in a morning is a book. And the last thing I put down is a book, which is also just good for mental health, is to not have a news flash, be the last, the first or last thing that you see. The news is no less horrific, but if you start with a story you have already like, entered into a different space, that at least for me makes me. Able to receive whatever news is gonna come through the day. And also to know that I'm gonna return to that story and I'm gonna be with characters. I'm gonna be in, this beautiful world as the last thing I do. That's been helpful. And it also keeps you, even if you only get to read a page in the morning, a page at night, it keeps that momentum going. So you actually do make your way through a book.

Jason Blitman: 1:09:43

Yeah, exactly. That's slow and steady wins the race. You just have to do it. The emails will be there, the news will be there no matter what, jump into a book, and that book can be Town and Country by Brian Schafer, or Brain Schafer, depending on where you're buying your book. Either way, dyslexia friendly. It's all great. Brian, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being my guest gay reader today.

Brian Schaefer: 1:10:08

you for having me. It was such a joy.

1:10:09

Thank you, Grana. Thank you Brian. Everyone, have a wonderful rest of your day, like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. It means so much. Thank you for being here, and I will see you later this week with the announcement of the December booklet pick. All right, everyone. Bye.