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Gaze reading where the greats drop by trendy authors. Tell us all the who, what, and why. Anyone can listen. Comes we're spoiler free Reading from politic stars to book club picks where the curious minds can get their picks. So you say you're not gay. Well that's okay. There's something for everyone. Gays rating. Hello, and welcome to Gay's Reading. I'm your host, Jason Blitman, and on today's episode I have Olivia Lang talking to me about their new book, the Silver Book, and my guest gay reader today is Michael Galyean, who. Became internet famous when he was in this fantastic video. Uh, and he's known as the Dancing Blue Shirt guy. Um, I will post a link to the video in the show notes. It is so delightful. It's a minute long. Go check that out. Anyway, if you are new to Gay's reading, welcome. So happy to have you. And if you are back, welcome back. Thank you for coming back. Uh, if you like what you're hearing, please share us with your friends. Follow us on social media. We are at Gaze Reading, like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps with the algorithm so that other folks can find gaze reading. It means so much to me and I say that all the time, but it really does. This is a little indie podcast and I do it. Because I love it. and if you are so inclined to leave a five star review or just any sort of review, I guess if you hate the show, you can also leave a one star review, but, um, I'd prefer you didn't, but that's okay. anyway, I, yeah. Leave, leave a review over, particularly on Apple Podcasts because that seems to be the one that matters for some reason. I'm producing a book festival in Palm Springs. You can learn more@psbookfest.org. There are some fantastic authors that have been announced so far, like Jonathan Capehart and Chris Whitaker and, Claire Lombardo. Um, I almost just spoiled someone who hasn't been announced yet. Oh, and Bruce Holsinger, of course, the author of Culpability and Show Barau who wrote Indian Country and Lily Brooks Dalton, whose book The Light Pirate came out a couple of years ago, which I loved. her new book Ruins comes out on March 31st and we're doing the premier event for that book at the Palm Springs Book Festival. So lots of super fun stuff happening there. Again, ps book fest.org to learn more about that. Anyway, lots of really exciting folks. The end of March, March 27th through the 29th, tickets are on sale now. There's a free community day, uh, that's happening on the Sunday. If you are in the San Diego area on December 4th, I'm gonna be in conversation with Ann Packer, who is this month's Oprah's booklet pick for her book. Some write nowhere are, I think, are there other announcements? Um Oh right. The book club. I just announced the December book Club pick, which is like Family by Erin O White I released a spoiler free conversation with Erin the other day, so if you are curious about the book, you could listen to that spoiler free. Uh, before joining the club, and all that said. Please enjoy my conversations with Olivia Lang and Michael Gallion, AKA dancing blue shirt guy.

Jason Blitman: 3:35

Um, I, Wait, tell me about this other book that you had coming

Olivia Laing: 3:40

I can't even show you a copy'cause I forgot to bring one home. It's it's a decade of collaboration with my friend who's a painter, Chantel Joffe. So I, she's been doing painting shows and I've been writing the catalog essays for them for 10 years and we decided to make a book that gathered all of those together. So we did it with MacBooks. It's incredibly beautiful. It's more high-end than the stuff that I normally do, but. It's got like a beautiful linen cover and at the end there's like a conversation of us talking to each other about making, so it feel we wanted it to be like a resource for young artists

Jason Blitman: 4:15

Oh, that's really interesting and such an interesting parallel to the Silver Book.

Olivia Laing: 4:20

making. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 4:22

How dare you say, higher end than

Olivia Laing: 4:25

Oh my God.

Jason Blitman: 4:26

Do you see this cover? Do you see this is, so, my husband looked at this and he was like, that is literary. If I've ever seen it,

Olivia Laing: 4:35

it isn't it? But also fabulous. I like that it has this like it's disco.

Jason Blitman: 4:40

it's disco. It's like a door opening. There's a lot going on

Olivia Laing: 4:46

Yeah. It's perfect. It's such a good cover.

Jason Blitman: 4:49

So how dare you call this

Olivia Laing: 4:52

Yeah, that trashy? No. End book.

Jason Blitman: 4:55

That's what I heard

Olivia Laing: 4:57

Okay. Don't tell FSG.

Jason Blitman: 5:00

Olivia, welcome to Gay's Reading.

Olivia Laing: 5:01

very happy to be here.

Jason Blitman: 5:03

I had to officially welcome you of course here to talk about the Silver Book. What. Is your elevator pitch.

Olivia Laing: 5:12

Okay. It is a queer love story, and at the same time, it's a noirish thriller set inside the dream factory of 1970s Italian cinema. That's my one sentence.

Jason Blitman: 5:25

Yeah, and honestly, like I don't even have that many notes because the book is so propulsive and so slim that I don't want to give much away, even though it's historical. So there's like a lot that. We can pull from. So let's start with that. Actually. First of all, Danil and I have the same birthday,

Olivia Laing: 5:46

okay.

Jason Blitman: 5:47

same year. Not the same year. Of

Olivia Laing: 5:49

he's a little older.

Jason Blitman: 5:50

a little bit was mehi, rest in peace. Um, but we do, so how did the sort of historical angle come for you? This is, these are, to unpack that a little bit, this is based on. It is your interpretation of things that could have happened based on real facts.

Olivia Laing: 6:10

Yeah, so let me say the world that it's in, it's set in 1974 and 1975, and it's around the making of two flawed masterpieces, I think Fellini's Casanova and Pasolini Sallow, or the 120 Days of Sodom, this apocalyptic horror film with deep moral and political intent. And I was very interested in both those films. I was watching a lot of movies during the Pandemic, and those Palestinian Fellini came up very high in that list, And for years I've been wanting to try a thriller. So I've been looking for a sort of world that I could set a thriller in. Not like thinking about it every day, but at the back of my mind. And I got more and more interest in Italian cinema and Italian politics. The seventies is a very febrile period in Italy. Then I was reading a lot about OL's murder, and there's this story that some reels were stolen from his final film, which potentially were used to lure him to his death. That's a really interesting story. And then I realized that reels were stolen from the Fellini film at the same time. They were being made at the same time. They were being made at the same film set in each Qatar. And hello. They had some of the same crew. So I suddenly realized that there was this whole drama happening and that at the center of that was this gorgeous costume designer, dti person of a very significant birthday. But also, do you know this wonderful, interesting artist who hasn't had his Jews, who's not a star like Fellini and Pasolini, but is very talented. And I started to think what if I put Danilo at the center of this story? And then the idea of a love story came into my mind, and that's how it became two things at once.

Jason Blitman: 7:56

Yeah. What, so taking it even further back, what was the inspiration to start to watch these movies during COVID? What was, what even started

Olivia Laing: 8:06

Can you remember why you did anything in COVID? I dunno. I was

Jason Blitman: 8:11

Listen, I.

Olivia Laing: 8:12

psychically.

Jason Blitman: 8:13

I became a big reader during COVID, so I understand the sort of things that we would pick up, but it seems like a very specific genre of film to start with or to like to be

Olivia Laing: 8:26

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 8:27

during COVID. I was watching rom-coms and things that were gonna distract me and not think about the world and the, I imagine that's,

Olivia Laing: 8:36

I think there was a funny completionist urge during COVID though. I don't think I was the only person that was like, okay, I'm gonna get my way through this whole body of things. That sense that you were just wasting time all the time and that you wanted to make it mean something perhaps was in my mind, but also I just loved them. They were very seductive and Fellini films are very beautiful. They are, very sexy and erotic, but charged with melancholy and the Pasolini films that I was watching, especially the Trilogy of Life, they're like full of joy and very playful. So they were very uplifting to watch, and I think they're films that need time. You can't come home in the evening from an exhausting day and be like, Hey, I'm gonna sit down and do the next pasolini session. So it was good to have those days where it was like. Nothing's happening. I'll lose myself in this. It was an alternate reality almost that I wanted to just plunge into. And I guess it's also worth saying, I plan to put Pasolini in the Garden Against Time, which is my last book, the last nonfiction book. And this happens to me all the time, that there's somebody I want in a book and they escape me. They allude me, and then I'm like I'll get you in the next one. And so that kind of happened. I was still chasing

Jason Blitman: 9:47

he was sort of set aside.

Olivia Laing: 9:48

I was like, you can get away this time, but I'm coming after you. I'm really interested in cinema and I really am, I'm really visual. I've been writing about art for the last. at least. And I think the idea of trying to make a novel that almost was a film was very beguiling. So this really function, it's in language, but it also functions very visually. It's like seen.

Jason Blitman: 10:13

yes. How did that element come to be? It's like I'm, I. A few minutes ago mentioned that it's relatively slight. It's a slim book, but

Olivia Laing: 10:22

not gonna say slight, we're gonna say slender. It's

Jason Blitman: 10:24

slender, slender, slender. Yes, yes, Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Um, sturdy.

Olivia Laing: 10:31

Stocky little fellow.

Jason Blitman: 10:32

Yes, exactly. Um, but yeah, even just if one were to flip through the pages, you could see it's really broken up into these. Scenes, for lack of a better word. It's like exactly what it's, how did you approach that

Olivia Laing: 10:46

Yeah. So the genesis of this book is strange because I had the idea, I almost, I was in Venice in 2023 and. I was in a water taxi and I had this vision of dlo meeting this redheaded English boy and this like electric spark of attraction happening.

Jason Blitman: 11:03

Uhhuh?

Olivia Laing: 11:04

And I was like, oh, this is the novel. This is great. It's called the Silver Book. But then I couldn't write it because I had a whole I, the garden against time was coming out. I was touring for a long time, so I had to tuck it away in a little safe for a year. And then when I did come to write it, which is last September in Rome. It was like it had just been cooking on its own and it was really, I worked out what I thought was the plot. I'd written a skeleton structure, which is how I structure my books anyway. But when I came to write it, it just was as if there was this voice in my head and I wrote it down, but also very strongly I could see it scene by scene. I could see the scenes unfolding in front of me. So I was really describing what was in my head as if I was watching a film. And that's. A very unusual way of constructing for me. So it felt like it really went shot after shot. And that's why those chapters are often very short and very circumscribed

Jason Blitman: 12:01

Yeah. Do you think that part of it is because there were these sort of preexisting tent posts for you? Because it's so historical.

Olivia Laing: 12:09

maybe. But I think also I'm. I'm a nonfiction writer. I've written a lot of nonfiction. They're very archive based. They're big, long, slow books, and I think it was just so exciting to be like, I'm free. I don't have to fill in all the connective tissue. I don't have to write 45 pages. On the years of lead in Italy, these people are living their lives. They're having sex. They're not thinking about. All of those details, all of those things are happening in the periphery. They're out of the corner of people's eyes, but people are focused on what's right in front of them. What am I trying to make today? What am I going to eat? That boy is really hot. That's the kind of stuff that's going on in their heads.

Jason Blitman: 12:47

And also that's how it's written It's there. There's not a lot of lingering to be had, which I think is very refreshing for a book like this. You can sort of appreciate the language, you appreciate the scenery, and you're just like, okay, what's happening? Let's, bring it on. Um. The epigraph is a Fellini quote, and the end of the quote is, I am what I invent. Is that true for you in your books and your writing?

Olivia Laing: 13:14

That is a good question. I think so. And I think there is a kind of truth in invention. This is really a book about illusions and it's about lots of different kind of illusions, some. Seductive illusions, some nourishing illusions and some really dangerous illusions, the dangerous illusions of fascism, which sadly we are all becoming more familiar with by the day. So it's about that, but it's also about these sort of seductive beautiful illusions of art that tell us the truth about our world. And yeah, I guess that's the business I'm in.

Jason Blitman: 13:47

How do you relate to your work in that way?

Olivia Laing: 13:52

How do I relate to it? What do you mean? If

Jason Blitman: 13:57

you are what you, invent and you are an artist and it's this whole world is about illusion, how does that sort of integrate into your real life?

Olivia Laing: 14:11

that's a good question because I think the more books you write, the more. Your real life expands, or the more the internal world of you becomes an external world. We've all got these internal worlds inside us and things that fascinate us. But the strange thing about the artist, and perhaps particularly the writer, is you make this exoskeleton and you let other people have a look at it. So actually, increasingly, strangers know my inner life, perhaps even better than I do, because they're objectively seeing it. So it's a strange. It's a strange process, which actually I think one doesn't want to look at too closely because the weirdness of it would stop you being able to do it almost.

Jason Blitman: 14:49

However, do you think that putting it out there gives you a freedom to move about the world in a freer capacity? Does that make sense?

Olivia Laing: 15:01

Possibly. Possibly. And also I think I'm really keen with each book of going I'm moving on now. I'm going to different territory. I'm gonna make something unexpected. You are not gonna get a sense of what my next book is gonna be, because it will be a jump. And this one is the biggest jump. This one feels like it was a real reckless leap into the unknown in terms of structure and in terms of subjects.

Jason Blitman: 15:24

where did that sort of risk taking come from?

Olivia Laing: 15:27

I dunno, I don't know, but I've always hated the idea of repeating myself or playing safe. I always want my work to be, frightening me, making me think, oh my God, what am I doing here? Yeah. That feels very important to me to not keep, there's a strong commercial imperative to keep writing the same book. And I think a lot of people would've liked me to write the lonely city for the rest of my life. didn't wanna do that.

Jason Blitman: 15:51

Yeah. So what sort of fear did this dust up in you?

Olivia Laing: 15:54

Oh my God. Will everybody hate it? What will happen? What if it's ter? What if it's really crummy? And also, of course, writing fiction about real people. What if you mess it up? What if you dishonor them in some way? And I think I take that very seriously. That sort of imperative for the nonfiction writer of doing right by people. And I've written about a lot of. People in my life who I really love. David Rovic is obviously a really central character, and Danilo Dati and Pasolini also they're really iconic and special people, so I very much wanted to make sure that the book told their stories in a way that allowed them their total dignity and complexity.

Jason Blitman: 16:36

Yeah,

Olivia Laing: 16:36

the big risk, is like getting that right.

Jason Blitman: 16:39

sure. And I'm also curious, you just talking about. How you didn't need to write 45 pages about, what did you say? The history of lead or whatever it was that you said Was it scary? Was the economy of words scary

Olivia Laing: 16:51

No, it was thrilling. It was absolutely thrilling. It was really great. I've written a lot of those books where it really is filling in every detail. And no, I, with this one, I just wanted to leap and just write what excited me on the page, and I think that's why the book has that sort of sense of excitement because all of the connective tissue is cut away.

Jason Blitman: 17:10

It's funny, like it's scary for me on your behalf, even though it wasn't scary for you, simply because I'm just like, I am the kind of person who over explains myself because I wanna make sure that I'm understood. So I'll say a version of the same sentence three different times to my husband, and it drives him crazy. So the idea of, not saying more when you are used to saying so much more for me, stresses me out on your

Olivia Laing: 17:32

Yeah, that's interesting. And I guess the big risk is being misunderstood. Not leaving a clear enough trail, but I think that felt very exciting and really liberating. Yeah, it was. It's the most exciting book I've ever written. I it, I wrote it for two and a half months. I thought about it for a long time, but the actual writing was two and a half months and that was just wild. It was so exciting the whole time.

Jason Blitman: 17:55

that's crazy. Two and a half months. Okay. You said you wrote it in Rome last September. what was that? Did you, so you said you've been, it's been stewing in your brain, you did a skeleton. What is that process like? Writing a novel in two and a half months? That is unheard of.

Olivia Laing: 18:11

yeah. It was actually, I think in the old days people used to write novels very fast, like mural

Jason Blitman: 18:16

We're not in the old days anymore, Olivia.

Olivia Laing: 18:18

now we like to spend a long time, but I think, I probably will never have that experience again. It came out hot, it came out in that way. But I went to Rome. I lived at the British School, which is by the Esei Gardens, and I would write, and then I would walk around the town. I would go and look at the ti and think, what color is it today? And I would take fragments from the city and fragments from my experiences and put them into the book. I went to the archive where Danilo Donati's costumes are, which was really amazing. So I was doing research as I was going along, but. By the end, I was getting up at six in the morning and I was going to bed at two, and the whole time I was just writing and writing like steam coming off my keyboard. It was ecstatic and now it's over and it's a very sad experience. Actually we are talking, we're talking on the 14th of November and I think I finished it on the 16th of November. So this time last year I was just in that lava zone and then I finished it on a train from Rome to Milan. So we are really, yeah, it's really nice to be so close to that anniversary.

Jason Blitman: 19:22

that's crazy to me. I, first of all it is, I feel like it is so unheard of. The books pour out that quickly in these days, um, and to finish it, and then a year later see it in the bookstore.

Olivia Laing: 19:35

Yeah, and the really wild thing is it's out in Italian now too, so we managed to get the whole translation done within that period. My translator was a very extraordinary person and really we worked on it very closely together. So yeah, it's been a whi, it's been a whirlwind.

Jason Blitman: 19:51

Wow. That's so cool. you talked about being on the boat in Venice and immediately had this moment. You were like, this is what the love story is gonna be. This is what the book is gonna be called first. Where did that title come from? Where did the silver book come from for you?

Olivia Laing: 20:08

I dunno where it came from. It titles always happen like this. I have holding titles for books. Like for years, the Bo, the everybody was called The Body Book. And then one day I was walking across the park and I went, everybody, it's called everybody. So I know that at some point the title comes, and with this one, the title came almost before everything else. And I guess silver for the Silver Screen cinema, but also. The Silver Book, this sense of reflection and illusion and mystery. There are a lot of mirrors in the book. There's a lot of people gazing into reflections that aren't quite right. So the Silver Book felt, the Silver Book felt, I don't know, powerful to me a powerful title.

Jason Blitman: 20:47

Yeah. That's, again, fascinating. The way that this is all just pouring out of you is not what I'm used to hearing. Um, there's,

Olivia Laing: 20:56

clearly that my nonfiction is very crafted and boring and archive rich, and this is

Jason Blitman: 21:03

this is also very this is also very crafted. Like I don't want It to sound like. It poured out of you at, in a sort of hodgepodge, crazy way? No. It's, I think that's what's so surprising to me. It does feel so meticulous, and so to hear that it happened as swiftly as it did cool.

Olivia Laing: 21:21

Yeah, and it's very, it's strange. My editor said he, he hasn't had that experience of being handed something. That's a first draft. That is basically the finished book we did. We made very few changes because it was a very sort of clockwork plot. It's very tightly built, and that was the thing I was thinking about beforehand. So some of that changed, but the kind of intricacies of that were the result of a lot of

Jason Blitman: 21:41

don't a hundred percent. And I don't know that you could have written this book or anyone could have written this book without. Your experience and your history with your

Olivia Laing: 21:51

You couldn't, it's not a first

Jason Blitman: 21:52

they really do go hand in hand. Not only is it not a fir first book, but it's the research I think for you came so naturally right. It was so real. It could have been nonfiction just based on, you know, who you are. So the other than. Who these men were, right? And the fact that they were queer. Where did the book is just like deeply rooted in queerness. What was the importance of that for you? What, where did that sort of come from?

Olivia Laing: 22:24

Yeah, I'm a trans person who grew up in a gay family, so it is in a way completely my world, and yet it's. A gay man's world from a period just before I was born. I was born in 77, so it's an attempt to grasp the world. As I came into it and as I was writing it, it became clearer and clearer that it's a book where an enormous amount of the damage done and an enormous amount of the sort of driver for the damage that happens. Inside the book is homophobia. Nicholas is running away from homophobia. The men in Italy have this kind of beautiful, gorgeous society. World. World, within a world, but they're surrounded by absolute hatred. They're despised. It's such a homophobic time in Italy. The fact that Pasadena's murder was understood as. Being killed by a re boy. And of course that's what's gonna happen to a queer, of course he's gonna be killed on a waste ground. So you have that sense of homophobia is a violent force surrounding everybody. And it is absolutely no coincidence that I wrote this book as a trans person in 2025, because we are back in that kind of violence and horror again. We're back in that kind of hatred that I remember from my childhood growing up during the AIDS crisis and. I wanted to talk about this desire to build an alternative world, this desire to make an alternative community that is filled with joy and creativity in making, because I think we all need to remember that we can do that.

Jason Blitman: 23:51

Yeah. Speaking of making what does that mean to you as someone who's been writing about art for as long as you have been?

Olivia Laing: 23:58

Yeah I'm fascinated by those lucky artists that get to work with materials rather than words. Because the thing for a writer is you're working with language, that's your material. You don't get to be like in the studio messing around with paper and paint and having that sort of joyous experience. And I think cinema fascinates me because it's so material, especially this cinema, which is pre CGI, it's pre ai. It's not digital, it's all analog. And also. It's collaborative, it's communal. It's not really a cinema of egos. It's a lot of, there's the one grand director and there are the actors, but then there are all of these people who are making sets, who are making costumes and they're working together. And I wanted to celebrate that world, that much more anonymous world and that much more kind of down to earth world. Because I think that to me, it's the core of being human, that desire to make things together. As we move into a world where human creativity is handed over to ai, we have to resist that. We have to celebrate and reclaim our own, to make,

Jason Blitman: 25:03

It's funny to hear you talk about someone getting to go into a studio and play with paint or clay Because you're talking about going to see the Dan Dilas collection, right? And like most people for their job, they don't get to do something like that either. So the and I do, there are some authors who will. Sort of dive in headfirst on an art project in order to inspire Other work. And I think there is latitude a little bit in what creatives in general are capable or are able to do for their specific art. Um, that I think is really interesting versus, a lawyer.

Olivia Laing: 25:43

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think maybe that's the kind of compensatory thing that I got more and more interest in visual art and in archive work because I was like, I don't want to just be thinking about words. I want to move, I want to move my practice into stuff that is physical because it, I adore it. It's what I find really exciting and interesting to work around.

Jason Blitman: 26:03

Is there, are there things in the practical world, in the last chunk of time that have been exciting to you or that you've gotten to experience so that. Made you think about the world differently? I don't know. Did have you blown glass? Have you, Did you make a quilt? Did I don't know. Was there, I think people just like you watching the films, right? I think people can have tactile experiences that really shape how they experience

Olivia Laing: 26:28

Yeah, and really I think for me that's been gardening and having that experience of thinking about gardening so deeply while writing the garden against time building the garden at the same time. I think that was probably quite a deep experience of changing how I approached how I wrote, because I realized that gardening is this very. Daily activity that you return to it, you play with it, you plan. And I think it introduced the kind of playfulness into my writing that perhaps actually facilitated this book. I don't know, this is a kind of new question for me, so I haven't thought about this before, but I think maybe that was part of it, that it let me take more risks.

Jason Blitman: 27:05

Have you read Audition by Katie Kid?

Olivia Laing: 27:07

No, but it is very much on my list to read. It's funny you should say that.

Jason Blitman: 27:12

These books I feel like are very distant cousins.

Olivia Laing: 27:15

Hmm.

Jason Blitman: 27:16

Because if her book is about the sort of artifice of playing a role and how every day we are deciding to put on a costume and, know, the role that we're playing there's so much about this book that is about the artifice of life and What is real and what is fake. And when I wrote the note of.

Olivia Laing: 27:36

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 27:37

A fake world. I. I sort of contra, not contradicted myself, but I second guessed myself and I wanted to change what I was thinking.'cause it's not necessarily fake so much as an alternate reality.

Olivia Laing: 27:49

But I think fake is a really interesting word, and it was in my head while I was writing it because on some level, the trans person is always in a negotiation around fakeness. You are trying to. Explain to the world that what is inside you is not what the world is seeing. You're trying to produce an identity that is solid when it's constantly fracturing or being violently fractured from outside, and you are forced into this sort of negotiation with your reality being regarded as fake, and that can be extremely painful. And, physically enacted by the state. So it's it was very much in my head. And then all of those kind of classic queer novels like Ripley are very engaged in fakeness. There's this sense that queerness and fakeness is entangled in a way. And I think that became very interesting to me to have this young boy enter this world and. Have to negotiate with what's real and what's fake and what's real and what's fake about him. He feels fake all the time. He feels fraudulent and like a forger, but actually in some ways his problem is really that he's almost too real. He can't produce the convincing illusion of who he should be all the time. Sometimes he's just porous and vulnerable and afraid, and that makes him, again, vulnerable to manipulations.

Jason Blitman: 29:09

It's interesting to hear you say all of that, because the reason why I shifted from fake world to alternate reality is because. To a designer, the world that they create is real.

Olivia Laing: 29:23

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Yes. So who's calling it fake? Who's

Jason Blitman: 29:28

Right, right, right,

Olivia Laing: 29:30

for whom is it real? And I think that's the thing about, is art fake? Are you making up fake things? Are they lies or are you saying the thing that's most real about yourself? And that question, that sort of uncomfortable question is really key in this book. So it flu, it fluctuates the whole time. The idea of what's an illusion and what's real and what, when is somebody telling the deepest truth about themself by way of something that is actually an artificial reality?

Jason Blitman: 29:58

And yet We do put on a costume every day. What is that? What is, what makes it real versus what makes this shirt that I'm

Olivia Laing: 30:09

Exactly. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 30:10

What,

Olivia Laing: 30:12

Which brings us back to the whole kind of Judith Butler gender trouble situation that we are also, the whole idea of producing gender as a masquerade. It's a masquerade that everybody engages in and hates, to be told, is a masquerade. So I think that, I think it's actually very uncomfortable for people to confront how much we are all performing all the time. And it feels like it was a big question of seventies cinema, films like performance Nick Rogue's performance, very engaged in that. What's the real self and what's the underlying self and what is just the sort of masquerade that's being produced on a daily basis for different purposes, some of which is seduction or power or intrigue of various kinds. And the book is definitely engaged in those sort of questions.

Jason Blitman: 30:57

Yeah, it's

Olivia Laing: 31:00

and yeah, at the same time, it's it's also a story of this isn't work without consequences. This isn't just this kind of realm of free play for artists to mess around with identity, because actually for Pasolini, what he's trying to do is create a fable that tells the truth about fascism and the price he pays for that is his life. He's beaten to death, he's run over by his own car and his heart explodes. So those things are not lies. Those things are not artifice. Those things are as real as fact gets. It's high stakes work that they're engaged in

Jason Blitman: 31:35

It is high stakes work and yet existing in the book. It is in turn fake because it's a novel, but it really happened.

Olivia Laing: 31:49

Yeah,

Jason Blitman: 31:49

right? So like there are all of the,

Olivia Laing: 31:50

Pasolini speaks. Many times in the book. Those are his real words. So he really is speaking through the book that you have this sense sometimes when he's saying things in Corri or when he is giving his last interview, that is Lin's actual voice. The final interview that he gave the last day before he was killed. His final words that were recorded on Earth come through the page and they are absolutely real. And the warnings that he's giving about the return of fascism, about how fascism will meld with capitalism about the ecological and social degradation that will follow pasadena's frightening warnings that came true. Those things are real.

Jason Blitman: 32:31

Well, And it also, it like is all real, right? Because we're deciding it's real and because we're engaging with it as a piece of art and

Olivia Laing: 32:38

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 32:39

it. And I think that was for me, among the more, the most interesting pieces of reading the book was it made me think about how I was engaging with the art and knowing your history in

Olivia Laing: 32:52

Mm.

Jason Blitman: 32:53

I spent two hours after finishing the book down a Wikipedia rabbit hole of, all of these real characters. Um,

Olivia Laing: 33:02

did you think that they were all real, or did you understand straight away that Nicholas was of a different status?

Jason Blitman: 33:10

I think it was clear who were for sure real,

Olivia Laing: 33:15

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 33:16

and I think I appreciated that. Anyone else? Could have been

Olivia Laing: 33:21

Yeah. Because almost everyone actually is real. But I've had people say, oh, I googled Nicholas Wade. I was looking for his Wikipedia page as if every character was real. But what I wanted to do is really inject this one fictional person into a real world and then see what happened, what story would happened if this person wandered through these sets and looked at that person. Oh my God, that person finds him attractive. How interesting. So it was a very fun game to play. It's not a game that you're allowed to play with nonfiction, so it was very exciting and subversive, for me to do it.

Jason Blitman: 33:55

And I think that was maybe why I didn't assume that Nicholas was real, Frankly didn't assume that he was not real, because he did seem like a gateway for the

Olivia Laing: 34:07

yeah, yeah, Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 34:09

Something comes up in the book about someone craving a costume and a roll and in line with what we've been talking about. It just makes me think so much about how desperate we are to be told what to do.

Olivia Laing: 34:23

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what is so touching about Nicholas as a character is that sense that we have when we're very young, but I think. We all have it inside ourselves still of how are you supposed to be in the world? What's, how does everyone else know how to be, how do they know how to perform themselves and how are they so good at performing themselves? And I think a big part of Nico's attraction to Danilo is he's this person of the absolute self-confidence. He has this real Stature. Solidity of presence. He's very elegant and put together and confident inside his work and confident in terms of ruling over his domain. And Nicholas is a person who's incredibly porous and open and can adapt himself to any situation. And those are wonderful characteristics. But what that means is that you constantly have a sense of doubt about who you actually are. A chameleon. I find chameleons just the most interesting people. I'm always fascinated by watching how people operate socially and the people who can fit themselves to whatever scenario they're in. What's that like when you go home alone and what do you fit yourself to then when no one's there?

Jason Blitman: 35:38

You say they fascinate you. Can you share more about why that is?

Olivia Laing: 35:42

I think it just, it seems a dangerous way to live, but also an exciting way to live. I'm not sure how convinced I am anyway in the solidity of people's characters because I think we are so much more in flux and so much more ous and so much more responsive to each other. The sense that we are people who change our being in turn in. we're talking to, with whoever we're around, we different sides of ourselves come out. I think actually that's quite frightening to realize. So we like to think that we're these solid beings of the 19th century novel who are the same in all environments, but of course we're not. And that really interests me. The idea that different selves come out in different scenarios, and then the pleasure of as a writer, tracking that and showing somebody behaving like that. I reject that 19th century novel assumption that a concrete character moves through circumstance unchanging, because I'm interested in the, Virginia Wolfer. Somebody in flux that sense of fluidity, and that's what I'm trying to capture all the time in writing, so Yeah, absolutely.

Jason Blitman: 36:48

And so I also then wonder a person who you might see as a chameleon or I might see as a chameleon, is it really just a matter of they're the same, but their context is changing,

Olivia Laing: 36:58

Possibly and, but I think some people do have a more sort of stable being than other people. I think people have that kind of, this is a very solid type of person who has that amazing knack for being the same in all situations. And the same with all people, which I find quite admirable. Rather than being a person who just constantly bends themselves, very mercurial to whatever situation they're in. And to watch that play out socially is very interesting.

Jason Blitman: 37:23

Yeah, I feel like too much stresses me out so that I, so I have to be bending because otherwise. You When you're navigating a difficult situation, you can't always be who you are. Um, I don't know why my first, the first thing that comes to mind is me thinking about my mother-in-law, right? I don't talk to my mother-in-law or deal with my mother-in-law the same way that I deal with, a friend

Olivia Laing: 37:47

And of course that's true of all of us, isn't it? And I think it's increasingly true of us as our social world becomes more and more complex and we are producing selves all the time because of social media. So we have become more influx anyway. But yeah, it rem, it remains a subjective interest.

Jason Blitman: 38:05

and it's interesting that you just said we are producing ourselves because of social media, and I think we, when we approach thinking about social media as art, as a production, then I think it's easier to, uh, see others also

Olivia Laing: 38:21

yeah, of course. Because we're getting to watch that whole thing happen in real time. We see our friends producing themselves according to different angles and different lights, and that is an interesting process. It's good for us to remember that we're making ourselves up all the time. It's making again, isn't it? We are making

Jason Blitman: 38:36

yeah. yeah. Absolutely. What is how would you sum up your brand?

Olivia Laing: 38:41

Oh my God, my brand is against brand. My brand probably is against brand. That is my genuine brand. Oh.

Jason Blitman: 38:51

It's, I like asked that question and I was like, if somebody asked me that question, I would be like, I don't know that this is done. What are we talking about?

Olivia Laing: 38:58

Yeah. I have tried very hard to be everything that is not Brandable, but I think that might have become its own thing in itself.

Jason Blitman: 39:07

but also like it's a,

Olivia Laing: 39:09

And also I'm trying to wreck the brand all the time by being like it's not that you wanted it to be that. That's gone. Yeah, I

Jason Blitman: 39:16

Sure.

Olivia Laing: 39:17

do we live in dread?

Jason Blitman: 39:20

Earlier too, you were talking about self-confidence and I think the more I engage with my fellow human who is confident, I think gives, is a. Can have a negative connotation'cause it can come across as arrogant. Um, but like someone who really, truly understands themselves and feels secure in, in talking about the reality of their lives, makes it a safer space for other people to also talk about their lives. Like I tend to have difficult and, some might call, not inappropriate, that's not the right word, but I'll talk to my siblings about things that some people might be uncomfortable talking to their siblings about, and I'm just like I want to normalize that we're human

Olivia Laing: 40:11

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:12

right. And it's not necessarily self-confidence, it's faked self-confidence so that we can all feel a little

Olivia Laing: 40:18

Yeah. Yeah. And also the more you do that kind of fake self-confidence, the more it creates real self-confidence because the open conversations happen and then the risk has been decept. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:28

Yes, exactly. And it's like having the sort of like delusion in the first place to, to fake the self-confidence.

Olivia Laing: 40:39

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 40:40

It goes back to the artifice and so you use the delusion to create the reality,

Olivia Laing: 40:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's that fake it till make it, isn't it?

Jason Blitman: 40:48

right?

Olivia Laing: 40:48

I think when that's put towards good ends and the good end of wanting honest conversation is, that's an ideal end. I think that there's something as well about really relinquishing the idea of building a persona in favor of work. Actually, just focusing on making the work does give you real confidence because after a while there is. There is a body of work and that there's nothing like that. I think as somebody who is incredibly shy and really struggled with self-confidence, I might still feel like that in social situations, but the accumulation of the stubborn accumulation of sentences over. More than a decade suddenly makes this thing that's oh no, that here is this stuff. Okay, I have made this stuff. It's real. It's really real. And I think that changed my relationship to confidence more than anything else, that it made me feel more and more ease. And that comes back to what you were saying right at the beginning about the sense that all that kind of internal world has in some way been externalized. And it's there. And if you struggle socially or to say to people what you're really interested in. Or if your interests are quite strange, then being able to put them into books and find people who want to read them and share them. That's a really strange and magical act that changed my life, I think.

Jason Blitman: 42:10

Oh wow. And what was that piece that you think changed it?

Olivia Laing: 42:14

I don't think there was a, I don't think there was a moment. I think it was just the ongoing process. Yeah. I think it was probably, lonely City was my third book, but probably Lonely City was the one that did really change it, because I wrote about something that was so painful, but also so taboo. It was such a taboo loneliness that nobody spoke about it, and then suddenly sending that out into the world and being like, oh, turns out an awful lot of people are lonely. Like really, a lot of people are lonely. And having that sense of. Communality, having that sense of community, and it's a very queer book, so that sense of a queer community as well, That just, that really released some of the shame around being strange or being different and made me feel much more confident. So I think that's similar to what you're saying about sharing around difficult things. It makes a sense of courage and ease.

Jason Blitman: 43:07

And we forget that shame is rampant amongst all of us humans and anxiety is rampant amongst all of us humans and all of us are making it up as we go along. And so the more we remember that, then it gets a little easier. And I think faking it till you make it sometimes all you need to do is do that for yourself and no one else needs to know. And then it's okay. Yeah. This is so interesting. I could talk about it all day. Um. Olivia Lang, thank you so much. The Silver Book is out now and is shimmering. Do you see

Olivia Laing: 43:41

It is shimmering. There's a little sheen running along it.

Jason Blitman: 43:46

Congratulations on all the things. You have a million things happening right now. I'm so glad to have you here.

Olivia Laing: 43:50

Oh, it's been a total pleasure. I've loved it. Thank you so much.

Jason Blitman: 43:54

Oh, I'm so glad. Your chaos is documented.

Michael Galyean: 44:03

it's like do that. Amy Po podcast. That first one with Rachel Dratch and her headphones. The doorbell's gonna ring. I don't have a doorbell and it'll still ring. It'll be fine.

Jason Blitman: 44:14

You don't have a doorbell.

Michael Galyean: 44:15

No, I'm very rich.

Jason Blitman: 44:20

That's what happens when you have your seven minutes of Instagram fame, right?

Michael Galyean: 44:24

No doorbells, just

Jason Blitman: 44:26

wait. No. Really? You don't have a doorbell?

Michael Galyean: 44:27

No we got one of the ring lights. We never put it up.'cause lazy. But also like it's a two bedroom house. Like I could see you

Jason Blitman: 44:36

Oh, someone will just knock on the

Michael Galyean: 44:37

cur,

Jason Blitman: 44:37

It's like good old fashioned.

Michael Galyean: 44:39

hokey pokey, country folky. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 44:43

Oh yeah. You're

Michael Galyean: 44:44

Yeah. So we just,

Jason Blitman: 44:46

You don't even have your door locked. People just walk right in.

Michael Galyean: 44:48

windows are open. We, Hey Mama Y's coming in. Come on in. Yeah. Yep.

Jason Blitman: 44:54

Perfect.

Michael Galyean: 44:55

Great. We're starting off strong.

Jason Blitman: 44:58

Yeah. This is what it's like on gay's reading. Michael Gallion, AKA dancing blue shirt guy. Welcome to Gay's Reading.

Michael Galyean: 45:08

thanks for having me. What a joy.

Jason Blitman: 45:11

What a joy i, this journey started because I saw your viral video years late. No, I think I saw it when it first happened.

Michael Galyean: 45:21

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 45:22

And then I was like refreshed. It reminded, I was reminded of it

Michael Galyean: 45:26

Not that I repost it every three weeks, but

Jason Blitman: 45:29

It wasn't from you.'cause I didn't follow you. I know. And then I was like, who's that handsome man? Let me follow him. And then I did. And now here we are.

Michael Galyean: 45:40

all it, that's my one thing about that whole video is like it's millions, billions, international views, whatever, not counting. But I was not tagged in any of it, so people are just like not finding me and I'm like, you just have to type in the four words, dancing blue shirt guy. That's why I made my Instagram. So

Jason Blitman: 45:59

uhhuh.

Michael Galyean: 45:59

Because that's what everyone was saying what's that dancing blue shirt guy? It's literally dancing. Blue shirt guy. Please find me. I'm very alone.

Jason Blitman: 46:09

And then you posted about who do you know who hosts a podcast?'cause you are, you're itching to just have fun and be on a podcast. And I was like, me come beyond mine.

Michael Galyean: 46:18

love it. See, you just gotta put it out there. Is that called manifesting?

Jason Blitman: 46:22

yes. Or Lady Festing. Or they festing it. We are.

Michael Galyean: 46:28

basically just fishing for work is what I'm doing.

Jason Blitman: 46:30

Yes.

Michael Galyean: 46:31

someone talk to me. Yay.

Jason Blitman: 46:33

That's okay. I'm here for you. Okay. For the people who were like, who the hell is this guy? I don't know what you're talking about. Tell me.

Michael Galyean: 46:42

Just

Jason Blitman: 46:43

of all,

Michael Galyean: 46:44

of everyone. Yes.

Jason Blitman: 46:45

I'm gonna put the video in the show notes, so everyone go watch this video. You've probably already seen it and don't even remember.

Michael Galyean: 46:53

True. Yeah. Maybe, hopefully. But yes. There was a video of me that I disguised myself as a blue shirt. Like the security guards at Neland Stadium at the University of Tennessee wear kind of the blue shirts. And they're spotted, dotted all the way around the the football field. So the team reached out to me about a week before and said, we have an idea for a skit. And there's plenty of those where a police officer or security guard or the mascot just jump in and t torque it out. They were like, let's try to elevate it a little bit. I know the coach because of Knoxville, the dance scene is quite small. And she knew that I would a do it. I would say yes to anything. At the time, I was in a lot of TV shows here in Knoxville like Snapped and Homicide Hunters. Oops, I killed my husband. Like, all of those crime recreation shows are all filmed here. So I was doing that like at, playing detective number two and blurry police officer number one. And so she was like, you have that. And then also I came to the University of Tennessee just to be a cheerleader. That's why I chose Tennessee out of the hat. Never auditioned, never tried out, got cold feet chickened out, backed away slowly, like Homer Simpson into the bushes. Yep. So 21 years later, my dreams finally came true. So whether you're, you saw it, anyone saw it, I don't care. It happened. So that chapter books, chapters, that chapter was closed. Yeah. Tying all in. But so it happened and that's all that mattered to me. The fact that everyone saw it. Live left. Love that.

Jason Blitman: 48:29

Yeah. Wait, so you literally, you went, you chose the school for the cheerleading program? Never

Michael Galyean: 48:37

Nope.

Jason Blitman: 48:38

I am like, gobsmacked. So what did you do instead? Where were you from? Where did you come

Michael Galyean: 48:42

I am from Delaware. Yes. Me, Joe Biden and

Jason Blitman: 48:47

now I'm in Knoxville.

Michael Galyean: 48:49

And literally I went Kentucky, Tennessee, because they have great cheerleading programs in the late 19 hundreds when I was in high school. Watching the ESPN National Championships, VHS taping them every time. And so I chose them because of the school. And if you wanna get emotional, I remember driving around the river and that's where Neeland Stadium, sorry. It's been a long way. And I remember driving around and saying, I'm gonna cheer and that stadium one day and I didn't for 21 years. And then I did. It all happened when it needed to happen.

Jason Blitman: 49:25

I love that. And I also love that you're still there,

Michael Galyean: 49:28

Yeah. Love

Jason Blitman: 49:29

clearly have. Yeah. You made a full life there. I, this is so shocking to me. Okay, Michael, as my guest gay reader, I have to know, what are you reading?

Michael Galyean: 49:37

Okay. So this week I've been reading a lot of Legally Blonde, the musical,

Jason Blitman: 49:44

Uhhuh. Uhhuh.

Michael Galyean: 49:46

a lot of food menus.

Jason Blitman: 49:48

What? Tell me more about the food menus. What are we reading?

Michael Galyean: 49:51

So first off, I choreograph musicals here in, in Knoxville. So Legally Blonde opens tonight, actually. So after I leave this

Jason Blitman: 50:00

some of the posts on Instagram.

Michael Galyean: 50:02

it's so good. So learning a lot about that. And then I'm also a private chef, so I have a private chef gig tomorrow night. So I've got my menu put together. I've got my shopping list. I'm like putting my recipes and my ideas and. Getting it all outta my brain and putting it on paper and reading it over and over, and then chat ching a few things and YouTubing a few things, but.

Jason Blitman: 50:26

what is your journey like to create a menu?

Michael Galyean: 50:30

So I like to lean into things that are familiar to people, but with a little, and I like to be that in the dance world. I like to be that in my social world. Like you think you know me and then there's a twist, there's a extra, there's a oomph. Um, And I like, you know, doing a private dinner, someone's hiring me to come into their house and feed them. I'm not trying to force my. This is what I want to eat tonight. What do you like and what can I like introduce you to in a interesting way? But to me, the phone eats first. We all know that it's gotta go on Instagram, so it's gotta be pretty, there's a lot of instances where I. Draw out the plate before I know what the food is. And so it's, yeah, visual artist, like I just wanna see colors and pops and different textures and whatever. But there's gotta be veggie first, then seafood and maybe some meat. But I love veggies, colors, fun stuff like that.

Jason Blitman: 51:27

Okay, so you say you have this gig tomorrow night, you said your MO is you do the meal with a, what's your tomorrow?

Michael Galyean: 51:38

Do you know what cheer wine is? Yeah, it's hokey Pokey country. Folky. It's a soda. It's a soda that's indigenous to the south, in the Knoxville region. Imagine like Dr. Pepper, sweeter. But with a little bit more cherry twist. So I'm doing a shrimp cocktail sauce with the cheer wine in it. I'm doing a pumpkin soup with curry crab. So it's like things that, not normally in the world.

Jason Blitman: 52:07

Yeah. Okay.

Michael Galyean: 52:08

recently that I love cooked fruit and savory things. Like I did a Tuesday, I had a gig, and I did roasted tomato soup with peaches. Seasonal, delightful, whatever. So I'd like to add just right, please hire me.

Jason Blitman: 52:26

I last night got the, and trader Joe's is not a sponsor of mine, but I'm more than happy to have them if they would like to be they're seasonal hash of like sweet potatoes and gour all the gourds and onions and whatever. And I sauteed it for a long time and then blended it and made a soup outta that.

Michael Galyean: 52:46

Done. Genius.

Jason Blitman: 52:48

So that's P-S-A-P-S-A to you and the

Michael Galyean: 52:51

yep. There's probably roasted like red onions in there. There's spice, there's peppers. That's so smart. Sidebar, controversially up. Brave. I hate a Trader Joe's. What's going on in there? What is going on? Why is it World War iii? Why does everyone think that's their last meal? Why is Julie elbowing me for the meatballs? Like everyone just needs to take a breath in Trader Joe's.

Jason Blitman: 53:15

And my local Trader Joe's just. Underwent a major overhaul and nothing is where it was three weeks ago,

Michael Galyean: 53:25

chaos.

Jason Blitman: 53:25

and everyone is having a very hard time

Michael Galyean: 53:28

And we only have one in Knoxville, and I think every white SUV is there with their Stanley cups. And it's just, it's a lot. It's just a lot. If I could be in there by myself and enjoy the moment, listen, their wine is great. Their cheese, their flowers love, but it's a lot. When I saw an employee, they click their heels together after they stock the shelves, and I said, this is not for me today.

Jason Blitman: 53:53

Oh, geez. Okay.

Michael Galyean: 53:54

take a breath.

Jason Blitman: 53:55

are you a Thanksgiving fan?

Michael Galyean: 53:56

Love. Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 53:57

Okay. They have a popcorn. That is, it is stuffing flavored popcorn. I know I am not a huge popcorn person and this is crack to me.

Michael Galyean: 54:14

Okay.

Jason Blitman: 54:15

So that is again, another PSA

Michael Galyean: 54:17

So here's what I would do. Take your soup that you made and put some of that popcorn on the top, like a crouton Thanksgiving in a bottle.

Jason Blitman: 54:25

Yeah.

Michael Galyean: 54:26

I like that.

Jason Blitman: 54:27

they sell a seasoning called everything but the leftovers. And it is that, it's that seasoning.

Michael Galyean: 54:33

Do you remember when Joan Soda did their Thanksgiving sodas? Apparently only the South has sodas. Apparently. We're just like, let's rot our teeth

Jason Blitman: 54:42

not a big soda person like my husband is. There are lots of people that I know who are, but for some reason

Michael Galyean: 54:48

Yeah. No trader Joe's is fine. I'm sure it's great. Like I said, it's good for parties. It just always feels like the food aisle at Ross

Jason Blitman: 54:58

Whoa. Talk about reading. That is a B That is a bold

Michael Galyean: 55:02

I doing, which kind of read we're doing here. It's just.

Jason Blitman: 55:04

is a bold read.

Michael Galyean: 55:06

a person that needs like certain things and certain ingredients to cook, they make very flavorful and interesting things like you explained, but sometimes I just need a carrot.

Jason Blitman: 55:15

You are not wrong. It is definitely like snacks

Michael Galyean: 55:18

Yeah.

Jason Blitman: 55:18

first place, so it's Right. Good for like parties and

Michael Galyean: 55:21

Yes definitely gonna try the stuffing popcorn I'm in

Jason Blitman: 55:24

I know. It's really

Michael Galyean: 55:24

that sounds delightful.

Jason Blitman: 55:25

Yeah. You said, you were talking about the chapters of your life, chapters closing, chapters opening. If you were to title this chapter of your life right now, what would it be? You've got you're a choreographer, you're a private chef, you're an internet sensation, you are a dancer. What is this chapter of your life called?

Michael Galyean: 55:46

Ooh, two things come to mind, and I, and that's probably exactly what the chapter's about. One of'em would probably be called Throwing Darts. Because that's what I've been doing for the past, oh, three to five years after. So I worked in American Eagle Outfitters for 24 years, the same job in the mall. Fun. And then after that closed, I started throwing the darts and just seeing what would land. And then after blue shirt was birthed I started really throwing the darts and going, okay, I also can do this. So let's see what sticks, what lands, that's, that chapter is maybe over because I'm. Following into three to four things. Now I'm in the chapter of saying yes, dot, but probably need to say no a few more times.

Jason Blitman: 56:35

Learning to say no,

Michael Galyean: 56:36

Yeah, and learning because as anyone know, that's maybe like a freelance artist or trying to be something more is more.'cause you don't know when the next phone call's coming, when the next paycheck's coming, when the next 10 99 or opportunity is coming. So you just say yes, whether it's a free charity mc event, or it's the$800 go dance at McDonald's for chicken nuggets. But you just keep doing it and you're like. But where is it taking me? But sometimes I don't mind. I've also said that I feel like I'm driving without the GPS on, but I'll get there somehow. But I'm just moving forward as long as the wheels are spinning or going somewhere, but sometimes I probably need to know, put something in the GPS just to like. Mile mark where I'm going and making sure that the journey's worth it. And I'm not just wasting, I love analogies, so I'm just gonna keep going with

Jason Blitman: 57:31

No, I love it. If you, at this moment in time today, we don't have to overthink this, but this moment, if you were putting something in the GPS, what would it be?

Michael Galyean: 57:44

The five year goal is to be the Ryan Seacrest of Knoxville.

Jason Blitman: 57:50

Okay.

Michael Galyean: 57:52

And that's the Ryan Seacrest i slash yeah like a personality. So I could host Wheel of Fortune, but also host the Emmy's. Maybe have a game show or a talk show. A talk show would be lovely

Jason Blitman: 58:08

Uhhuh.

Michael Galyean: 58:09

Drew Barrymore style, like some cooking, some chatting, some deep conversations, some ridiculousness. So that's why I think everything that I'm still doing is working towards that, but me personally, I'm not focusing on that. I don't host my own podcast right now. That would be a true interview style, whatever. So that's the five-year plan is to be Ryan Seacrest in that capacity? Not exactly him. He's, half my size and, but I'd be the plus size model.

Jason Blitman: 58:40

Yeah, we love I said to my husband, I'm talking to dancing blue shirt guy today, and he, for a second, had a quizzical face on and I said, and he goes, oh, hot coach. And I said, yep, that's the one.

Michael Galyean: 58:56

take it.

Jason Blitman: 58:56

So there you go. He doesn't say that about Ryan Sea Crest.

Michael Galyean: 58:59

Where was E for Halloween? Three. Two weeks ago. I could have been hot coach.

Jason Blitman: 59:04

Among your darts, you hit children's book

Michael Galyean: 59:09

Yes. Funny. You should ask

Jason Blitman: 59:12

Funny. I should ask Dancing blue shirt. Boy, tell us, tell me more about Dancing Blue Shirt

Michael Galyean: 59:18

He's a published author. Thank you. So this came about essentially it's somewhat of an autobiography about a little boy named Michael who basically. Wants to dance but doesn't see anybody or any other boys dancing. So he should not dance too. And it's not, so I did not want a Rudolph story. I didn't want everyone making fun of him that he danced. I. It's more of a, once, the dance team sees him privately dancing. The coach reaches out, you should come dance with us, perform. We see you, you look great. And then when he does, the whole world goes, finally, we've been waiting for you. So it's a little bit more of finding that inner hero. Just express yourself. The world's gonna love you. That kind of story. And then it does teach. Yeah, and then it does teach a little dance at the end too. The little blue shirt dance. So there's, yeah, wiggle your pants, shake your dance, like that kind of thing. I'll teach it. That's on the Patreon. And subscribe. Yeah. A lot. I like to be the dancer or the dance teacher that helps the person that's never danced, bridging that gap.'cause dance is a universal language. We all don't have to be fluent, but we can speak some part of it. So that's why I love working. Now. I choreographed the high school musicals and you can have everyone that was the girl that's been in the dance studio for 10 years, or bro, that's on the soccer team that wanted to try it, and we can get them performing at the same level

Jason Blitman: 1:00:47

totally. It's almost better. To be choreographed by someone who's not a Capital D dancer. Because you when I was in high school, I did some choreography too. I like, I'm not a trained dancer in quota marks, but I have taken some dance classes. So there's like some familiarity, but when it comes to, oh, let's just do things that feel comfortable in our bodies and what makes sense, it's oh, your weight is on this foot, so then it makes sense to use the other foot.

Michael Galyean: 1:01:15

How many times a week do I say that? Yeah, I think that's the. And people that play sports are so good with dance because, or they, maybe they work in the gym or whatever it is. Just knowing how, what it takes to move your body. And when we say lift your arm, it's really your whole shoulder and take your waist up with it and blah, blah, blah. But I do like to translate it for the athletes and we're just gonna squat, chest press clap and down. And they're like. Oh my God. And the other girls, I'm like twerk, But we all get to the same destination and a lot of directors have, yeah. A lot of directors have pointed out that they love that I can speak languages to six different people and give them individual like ways to get to there. So it's refreshing.

Jason Blitman: 1:02:01

I'm curious if you were to give a piece of advice to the listeners about feeling comfortable in your body, just for the sake of moving it, do you have advice? Is that because talking about talking to football players, I imagine. Sure they can quote, unquote, get the steps. But in terms of the comfort level of moving the arm, starting from the shoulder like there is this sort of, that you need to be comfortable in your body in order to get the moves and make it happen. And I think so many of us in general, are less comfortable in our body than I think we would like to be. So how do you, how do we break down? How do we break that barrier?

Michael Galyean: 1:02:44

There's a couple things that came to mind. I think we only put mirrors in our bathrooms, so then we're deathly afraid of mirrors, like when you open my shower and I'm standing there like a drenched rat, there's a mirror and that's the last thing I wanna see. So if we can put mirrors in different places so we can actually enjoy ourselves, that would be a of all look at yourself watch yourself move. I like at. High school. Now when we're dancing in a theater, we don't have mirrors, so that is a disservice.'cause these students can't see themselves. Are you actually matching me? So I think it's just body awareness. So don't be afraid of the mirror. Don't be butt naked in it. Maybe that's not what you need. Be fully clothed. Maybe you do.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:27

shame. Yeah.

Michael Galyean: 1:03:29

years ago you couldn't stop me from the mirror. Right now me.

Jason Blitman: 1:03:33

There, Michael. There are plenty of

Michael Galyean: 1:03:35

Oh, that

Jason Blitman: 1:03:36

Who are listening right now being like, I want to see I,

Michael Galyean: 1:03:41

Listen, two more years of trying and there's probably gonna be an OnlyFans. No, there's not. No, I no erase that from your ideas. People. That is not a dart. We are throwing

Jason Blitman: 1:03:54

yes.

Michael Galyean: 1:03:55

The rent is due every month

Jason Blitman: 1:03:57

Listen. Exactly. All right. Was there some, did you have another piece of advice? There was something else you said that came to

Michael Galyean: 1:04:02

Second of all, just do it. And just record people are so shocked that, we do this right, don't you? Do you get people that say all the time I can't believe you. Just go online and talk and aren't you self-conscious of your voice? And it's,

Jason Blitman: 1:04:13

Yeah.

Michael Galyean: 1:04:15

I just keep doing it. And not everything you film has to go on social media. Just film it for yourself, and watch yourself. And so if you are learning dance, it just, I also was a wedding DJ last year. It sucks to me that, yeah, I had 32, 10 90 nines in my taxes. It sucks to me that most people only dance at weddings, which are like, what, once every five years. So you can listen to Love Shq every time you can do the conga in your house. So just get comfortable and listen to music and like truly listen to music. Rhythm is half of dance. So yeah, you can get this down, but if you can't, somehow people just can't hear the song. Just listen to beats, listen, truly listen to music.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:01

Yeah. It's a great way of talking about just communicating, right? It's if you don't feel like you have rhythm, if you don't feel like it's in you, it's just a matter of listening and responding to what you're hearing.

Michael Galyean: 1:05:12

A hundred percent.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:13

Which is all I'm doing here.

Michael Galyean: 1:05:15

It's like a conversation. Weird. So is dance. So is dance.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:19

I know. What a beautiful

Michael Galyean: 1:05:20

What if we did like a whole, we could do a whole thing. Follow me.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:24

Yes, of course. We got this. Oh my God. Everyone go watch this on YouTube because we just had a little magical moment.

Michael Galyean: 1:05:36

I felt it.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:37

Me too. Okay, so you're clearly, you're not like a big novel reader, but were there ever books as a kid that you recall reading that meant something to you?

Michael Galyean: 1:05:47

I think the ones that come to mind, I love the outsiders as a kid.

Jason Blitman: 1:05:50

Oh,

Michael Galyean: 1:05:50

Okay. Pony Boy love them. But my favorite style of books were the Choose Your Own Adventures. Is that cheesy? Is that weird? Is that stupid?

Jason Blitman: 1:05:58

There is. An adult choose your own adventure that came out last year. That's like in the style of reality tv and it's super fun. And if you're like curious to dip into that as an adult person, I'll send you that book.

Michael Galyean: 1:06:14

so you're saying I should audition? Is that what I heard?

Jason Blitman: 1:06:19

Oh wait, sure. Of course. You're gonna just, you should be on reality tv. You'd be a great Big brother contestant.

Michael Galyean: 1:06:25

tuned. You might see me on your TVs in January.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:33

What?

Michael Galyean: 1:06:34

You heard it here first. Folks

Jason Blitman: 1:06:35

Oh my God.

Michael Galyean: 1:06:37

can't tell you much, but I just got back a few weeks ago from that's all. Can't get sued.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:43

Okay,

Michael Galyean: 1:06:44

much, but it's something. I was on tv. That's all that matters. Check,

Jason Blitman: 1:06:48

I know which wanna see you in all the places.

Michael Galyean: 1:06:49

check your local listings, check Fox and Hulu.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:52

Michael Gallian, thank you so much for being here.

Michael Galyean: 1:06:55

already? No.

Jason Blitman: 1:06:57

is it. We're done.

Michael Galyean: 1:06:58

rerecord with another personality of mine?

Jason Blitman: 1:07:01

Oh, of course. I want all 37 of them. One for each of your 10 90 nines from

Michael Galyean: 1:07:06

yeah. And then get the, like the, Hey bro you ready to talk books

Jason Blitman: 1:07:10

That's how you replied to my first dm.

Michael Galyean: 1:07:12

Yeah, I forgot about that story. You broke me. Yeah, bro.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:17

You did, bro. Me, and I was like, oh, okay. Great. Here we are.

Michael Galyean: 1:07:21

I love bru, stupid. Anyway, thanks for having me. You're a delight.

Jason Blitman: 1:07:25

Thank you for being here. You're a delight.

1:07:27

Thanks everyone so much for being here. Make sure to check out the Silver Book by Olivia Lang and the Dancing Blue Shirt Boy by Michael Gallion wherever you get your books. And I will see you next week. Have a great rest of your day. Bye.